SPEECHES OF THE RIGHT HONOURABLE CHARLES JAMES FOX. VOL. II. THE...
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OF
THE RIGHT HONOURABLE
CHARLES JAMES FOX.
VOL. II.
THE
SPEECHES
or.
THE RIGHT HONOURABLE
CHARLES JAMES FOX,
IN THE
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
IN SIX VOLUMES.
VOL. II.
DEL
DE TOTO
LONDON:
PRINTED FOR LONGMAN', HURST, REES, ORME, AND BROWN,
PATERNOSTER-ROW;
AND J. RIDGWAY, PICCADILLY.
Strahan :ma Preston,
Frio Ws-Street, London.
CONTENTS
OF
THE SECOND VOLUME.
1782.
Page
Jan. 24. Mr. Fox's Motion for an Enquiry into the ill
Success of the British Navy .....................
Feb.
7.
The Same
....................... • 0.• ...... ••• ...... ••• •••
19
13. The Same
•• ...... •I•
2 6
20. The Same
27
22. General Conway's Motions for putting an end
to the American War
......
......
29
The Same
30
March 27.
4. The Same
32
The Attorney General's Bill for enabling the
King to conclude a Peace or Truce with the
revolted Colonies in North America ......
37
8.
Lord John Cavendish's Motion of Censure on
His Majesty's Ministers
39
15. Sir John Rous's Motion for withdrawing the
Confidence of Parliament from His Ma-
jesty's Ministers
43
2o.
Change of Ministry ................ .........
46
List of the Rockingham Administration
48
April
8.
Affairs of Ireland
......... ............ ......
49
9.
The Same
57
May 1 7 . The Same
59
7. Mr. William Pitt's Motion on the State of the
Representation
67
June 19. Lord Mahon's Bill for preventing, Bribery and
Expence at Elections
...... .......... .....
69
July
9. Death of the Marquis of Rockingham — Resig-
nation of Mr. Fox Change of Ministry 71
List of the Shelburne Administration ......
gz
Dec.
5. Address on the King's Speech at the Opening
of the Session.
92
s8. Mr. Fox's Motion for such of the Articles of
the Provisional Treaty with America, as relate
to the Recognition of the Independency of
the United States Os" ts•e vas ......... es6 .. .... osset0
109
CONTENTS.
vii
vi
CONTENTS.
1784.
27S3.
Page
Page
Bill for removing Doubts concerning the exclu-
12.
Mr. Fox's Motion for resuming the Committee
Jan.
22.
sive Rights of the Parliament and Courts of
on the State of the Nation
313
Ireland in Matters of Legislation and Judi-
14.
Mr. Pitt's East India Bill
324
cature ************ n ••••• OI• ******** ••••••• • OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO et.
114
16.
The Same
334
Feb. 17. Address on the Preliminary Articles of Peace ... 119
23.
The Same
335
19. The Same
125
16.
Lord Charles Spencer's Motion for the Removal
21.
Lord John Cavendish's Resolutions of Cen-
of Ministers
343
sure on the Terms of the Peace
126
20.
The Same
348
March 5. Coalition of Mr. Fox and Lord North - Re-
26.
Mr. Eden's Motion to obstruct a Dissolution of
signation of the Earl of Shelburne -New
Parliament
354
M i nistry
••• ...... •••••••••• ...........
142
OOOOOO
**Op. .......
29.
Mr. Fox's Motion to adjourn the Committee on
6.
TheSame ......... .........
............... ......... ......... . 143
the State of the Nation
358
24.
TheSame .......
..... .............,. ...............
150
Feb.
2.
Mr. Grosvenor's Motion for an Efficient, Ex-
The Same
.... ••••••.•-••••• .• •• ................
258
. tended, and United Administration
365
31.
List of the New Administration .....................
163
Mr. Coke's Motion against the Continuance of
27. Williams's Divorce Bill
163
the present Ministers in their Offices
377
166
Resolution of the St. Alban's Association against
April16.
Terms of the Loan ....... .....
....... ............
the Exclusion of either Party in forming a
25. The Same
17o
New Ministry
381
May
171
7. Mr. Pitt's Motion for a Reform in Parliament
IS.
The King's Refusal to dismiss his Ministers -
July
u
4. Bill for regulating certain Offices in the Ex-
J
Postponement of the Supplies
chequer
175
387
20.
Mr. Powys's Motion, That the House relies on
Public Accountants
182
the King's Readiness to form an United and
Nov. II. Address on the King's Speech at the Opening
Efficient Administration
of the Session
397
185
"March
1.
Mr. Fox's Motion for an Address to the King
IS.
Mr. Fox's East India Bills
196
to remove his Ministers
414
20.
The Same
214
4.
The Same
427
z6.
The Same
218
5.
The Same
429
220
27.
The Same
8.
Mr. Fox's Motion for a Representation to the
Dec.
i. The Same
237
King on the State of Public Affairs
431
8. The Same
261
25.
Dissolution
of Parliament - Mr. Fox's Ad-
17. The Same
264
dresses to the Electors of Westminster
May
437
Copy of Mr. Fox's Bill for vesting the Affairs of
24.
Westminster Scrutiny ........,
437
the East India Company in the Hands of cer-
25.
The Same
443
tain Commissioners, for the Benefit of the
June
8.
The Same
Proprietors and the Public
451
283
.16.
Mr. Alderman Sawbridge's Motion for a Re-
Copy of Mr. Fox's Bill for the better Govern-
form of the Representation of the Commons
ment of the Territorial Possessions and De-
in Parliament
490
pendencies in India
291
18.
Motion for a Repeal of the Receipt
495
19. List of the New Administration
304
Change of Ministry - Earl Temple's Resig-
nation - Address to the King not to dissolve
the Parliament-The King's Answer
303
22. The Same
307
315
24.
The Same ............................... ..........................
II
SPEECHES
OF THE
RIGHT HONOURABLE
CHARLES JAMES FOX,
(^C. (S'c°
MR. Fox's MOTION FOR AN ENQUIRY INTO THE ILL SUCCESS
OF THE BRITISH NAVY.
January 24. 1782.
HE first object that engaged the attention of parliament after
the Christmas recess, was the long meditated enquiry into
the conduct of the first lord of the admiralty. In pursuance of
the notice he had given,
Mr. Fox rose. He began with saying, that he was per-
fectly convinced of the difficulty of the undertaking, and
also of the general impropriety of instituting an enquiry into
the conduct of men intrusted with the powers and influence
of govermnent. It was always ineligible and at times dan-
gerous; for the men intrusted with the powers of the admi-
nistration had it in their power to rise superior to the
impotence of inquiry, however just ; and by means of the
influence and the strength of office were able to crush the
efforts of those who endeavoured to expose their misconduct.
Gentlemen were, therefore, averse from the institution of
inquiries, and they were seldom made, because they were
seldom productive of advantage to the public. In such an
inquiry the evidence was in the hands of the persons accused;
they had it in their power to manage it as they pleased, and
without the evidence of office, it was not to be expected that
any benefit could arise from inquiry. That influence, there-
fore, exerted in favour of a,minister to be accused, ought to
deter any man from accusing a person so shielded, so pro-
tected. But of all the ministers in the cabinet, there was not
VOL.
If
MOTION FOR AN ENQUIRY INTO
[Jam 24.
1182.] .
THE ILL SUCCESS OF THE NAVY.
3
one more formidable, perhaps not one so formidable from.
fortunate, or disliked. Either of these cases were
influence, as the Earl of Sandwich : his situation gave him
to warrant an address to the sovereign for his re-
the influence of a whole. profession ; as a cabinet minister, he
1:iillo.°N,tling1,11 .in which there was perhaps nothing dishonourable,
of course would find himself supported by the influence of his
and in which there was frequently something very much to
colleagues ; but the noble earl had, independent of those two
the credit of the minister removed. The parliament had, at
sources of influence, another, which though not equal to that
all times, an undoubted right to request that any servant of
of the crown, was a powerful addition to it ; and with it,
the crown might be discontinued merely upon disliking him ;
sufficient to crush any member who should bring charges
it was by no means unreasonable. Had a minister a right
against him: this influence he derived from the East India
to his place for life, as to a freehold? or was he only a
company.
servant of the public ? If he was their servant, why should
It was easy, then, to foresee that he was about to under-
the public have less power over their servants than private
take an arduous task indeed. But all this he was ready and
individuals had over those domestics whom they paid for their
prepared to encounter in this case; at the same time that he
services ? If the public thought proper not to employ their
was convinced that this was not the way which, in more
servants any longer, had they not a right to dismiss them,
virtuous and vigorous times, a subject of this sort would be
without incurring the charge of injustice ? Undoubtedly
taken up. He was convinced that, as a prelude to an in-
they possessed this right ; and whoever should urge that it
quiry, he ought to move for an address to the king, to
would be unjust to exercise it, must necessarily deny the right
remove the Earl of Sandwich from his councils. If there
itself:
was nerve, honesty, and independence in that House, that
He would go farther, however, and contend, that not only
would be ;he mode in which they would set about this busi-
it would not be unjust, but that in many cases, as in the present,
ness ; but the evil effects of that influence which he had
it would be expedient to exercise this right; for the moment
mentioned were, that they had poisoned the understanding
a minister ceases to enjoy the confidence of the public, that
as well as the heart of that House. Gentlemen forgot what
moment he ought to be removed ; nay, though be should be
was right and necessary, and adopted, with their eyes open,
a meritorious servant, and an able minister ; for in every
what was wrong and nugatory; such was the habit of that
government there must be a confidence reposed in the ser-
House, that it would be an idle attempt to endeavour to
vants of the crown by the people; or else the business of the
convince them that there was a manifest and an essential
state can never be carried on with any degree of success :
distinction between a motion of removal, and an implication
and though the people should be whimsical and capricious
of censure. Gentlemen had adopted an idea, that to move
in their dislike of any minister, yet it never could be con-
for an address. to remove a minister, was to act unfairly ; that
sonant to sound policy to keep him in office against 'the
it was to condemn a servant of the public unheard, and to
opinion and wishes of the people. The public had long since
proceed to pass sentence without allowing him to make his
withdrawn their confidence from Lord Sandwich, (if he
defence. Nothing could be more absurd, more flake,
own
indeed ever had been honoured with it,) and therefore for this
and more foolish than this idea: but he wondered not that
reason alone, if not for one of the thousand others he could
it prevailed, for ministers entertained the same idea them-
urge, he ought to be removed : he trusted, therefore, that he
selves. Being men of less property than official emolument;.
should hear no more of the injustice and hardship of removing
for such now were the extravagant incomes of placdmen,
a minister, without having first given him a fair trial.
that their salaries and douceurs must be superior to their
Holding it, therefore, as a general principle of policy,
private estates ; they clung to their offices, and considered
that a 1110I10/1 of removal was the proper step to be taken, and
them as so rich and valuable, that at last they blended them
prudentially deeming an inquiry, as he had already declared,
with inheritance, and looked upon them as sacred franchises,
to be not the most fit measure to be taken with a minister
in the possession of which they were secured by the law of .
while in place; such was the situation of affairs, and such
the land.
tiiiifeenclitiaiiitotetis:isconduct and ill success of our naval force, that
The contrary of this the honourable gentleman particularly
he felt himself obliged, under all the difficulties, the obvious
insisted upon. In his opinion, there was no occasion to
othfattnwoinulciry
duiatt
end his endeavours, to be himself
criminate a minister, in order to address the throne for his.
into the conduct of the Earl of
to naval from office. It was sufficient that he was incapable,
`111(Isvicil• Thus knowinc, and avowing what was right, he
13 2
4
MOTION FOR AN ENQUIRY INTO
[Jan. 24-
1782.]
THE ILL SUCCESS OF THE NAVY.
5
was about to do what he had declared to be wrong, at least
somewhere, that would oppose whatever was undertaken or
wrong in some degree. From what the noble lord in the
suggested by the gentlemen in opposition : that Lord Sand-
blue ribbon had said before the recess, when gentlemen talked
wich would have been turned out of place, had not Opposi-
of the first lord of the admiralty, " that they could only
tion desired it; and that whatever plan was in agitation, if
accuse hire before the inquiry, but would not charge him
it were a wise one, and approved of by that side of the
with the same crimes afterwards," it would be expected, that
House, it would be instantly altered; if it was a bad one, and
the noble lord should himself be the first man to bring on the
condemned, it would be persevered in, and executed. He
inquiry. It was very true that he ought to do so. But he
could not tell whether there was such a spirit of obstinacy in
was not displeased that he had not done it, for if it had been
existence or not; but he knew that those men, who in their
taken up by that noble lord, he should have believed that it
hearts desired to see the Earl. of Sandwich out of place, and
would be conducted, as every thing was conducted which he
who sincerely thought him incapable of holding it with honour,
took in band, with fraud or imbecility ; and that it would be
or even with safety to his country, and yet came down to the
calculated either to do nothing, or to do mischief. There
House and voted to save him, were too bad for any society,
was, however, one thing which would be naturally expected
much less for the important trust which they held, of repre-
from the mble lord, after so much boasting and gallantry;
senting a free people. It proved to him the truth of that
that he should give to the House the means of a full and
declaration which the House made on the 6th of April, f78o,
fair investigation of the conduct of the admiralty. If he
that the influence of the crown had increased, was increasing,
denied the necessary intelligence ; if he withheld papers,
and ought to be diminished. But he desired it to be under-
and starved the trial ; the House would then say, that he, and
stood and believed, that though they brought on the question for
not the persons who attacked Lord Sandwich, hazarded ex-
an inquiry into the conduct of the first lord of the admiralty,
pressions which he could not prove, and was bolder in giving
they had no intention of fixing him in his seat; if lie should
the challenge than in fighting the battle.
be secured by their endeavours to turn him out, they could
It had been said of the Opposition, and it was a charge
only lament that obstinacy which they had it not in their
`of which they must clear themselves, that they brought on
power to subdue. They did their duty in warning their
the inquiry, in order to preserve the Earl of Sandwich in
country of the consequences of his administration of our
his place; for that if the Opposition had not strove to turn
naval affairs; they spoke of his repeated errors and crimes,
him out, he would have been so long before this time. This
exposed them to view, and endeavoured to procure his dis-
was a very curious charge. They had been said to be in
charge; and they did this in the honest and upright intention
league with Dr. Franklin, with the Americans, and even.
of saving the empire from the farther effects of his miserable
with the French and Spaniards. They were charged with
system. He begged, therefore, that it might not be im-
having contributed to the independence of America; but
puted to them, that they wished to fix him in his seat; nothing
all this was nothing in comparison with the charge Which
was farther from their intention, and he trusted that those
was now alledged against them; that they were in league
gentlemen who had spoken as he had said, 'and who wished
with the arch enemy who had robbed us of so much valuable
for the good of their country, that the Earl of Sandwich was
dominion, — the dominion of the ocean. - Better would it be
removed from office, would now be honest enough to hold.
for Great Britain, were they to have supported America,
the same language within doors that they held without, and
France, Spain, and Holland, than to have linked with the
act with the same vigour that they spoke.
present ministry, without whose uniform aid Dr. Franklin
The honourable gentleman now proceeded to the matter
might have been wise, General 'Washington brave, Maure-
of the inquiry. He said, that it naturally was divided into
pas, De Sartine, and M. de Castres, vigilant, crafty, and poli-
two distinct heads; the one,- whether the first lord of the
tic, America firm, the house of Bourbon full of resources,
admiralty had the means of procuring a navy equal to the
of vigour and of energy, and Holland proved a powerful
occasions of the state ? and secondly, whether he had em-
ally to the house of Bourbon in vain ! The honourable
ployed the force which he really had to the necessary services
gentleman spoke particularly to this point. It was said, not
with wisdom and ability? As to the first, he did not mean
by the gentlemen with whom he had the honour to act, but
to introduce it into the inquiry r • for though it was very true
113 ,
by the very men, who, in case of a division, would rote in
that there were many occasions, in which he could prove
favour of the Ear 3 of Sandwich, that there was an obstinacy
that the first lord of the admiralty had neglected his duty in
13 3
6
MOTION FOR AN ENQUIRY INTO
[Jan. 24.
THE ILL
1782.]
SUCCESS OF THE NAVY.
7
this respect, yet, as it would require so much detail of proof;
equal to the necessities of the state, or equal to the strength
and bring forward so many office-witnesses, witnesses all
of the enemy. He had said, however, that he did not mean
under the patronage of the noble lord himself, he did not
to go into this branch of the question. The examinations
wish to lead the House to this part of the subject. If the
which it would require, would be intricate ; the accounts
inquiry was to be continued for so great a length of time as
given by men in office would be unintelligible to many gen-
would necessarily be required for going into that part of the
tlemen, and would be rendered obscure to all, by means of
subject, he saw no probability of gentlemen giving it atten-
the artifices of the admiralty. He wished to confine the
tion. There was an indifference in that House almost
inquiry to that which every gentleman would be competent
invincible; and therefore the only prospect that he could have
to discuss, and he Promised the House that there would be
of the inquiry being regarded was, that it would not be
ample m atter for discussion.
tedious nor perplexing. If the first consideration was taken
The branch of the question then, to which he wished to
tip, it must be so : there would be great difficulty in ascer-
call their attentioe was, whether the first lord of the admi-
taining the facts, and the Housowould be obliged frequently
ralty had directed the force -of this country, with wisdom and
to resort to opinion and speculation on which it would not be
effect, to the necessary objects of the war? Before he pro-
fair to ground censure or punishment. But' though he did
ceeded to this he must clear a little ground. A doubt had
not take up this part of the question, he begged that no gen-•
been raised about the nature and extent of responsibility;
tleman would suppose that he thought the first lord of the
knowing, and believing, that all his majesty's ministers were
admiralty less criminal here than under the second head ;
guilty of the dismemberment of the empire, and of the cala-
he was convinced of the contrary. There were many egre-
mities with which we were surrounded, it was to him a.
gious faults, and such as every gentleman, whether intimate
matter of indifference on whom the consequences of the
With naval matters or not, must fully comprehend.
inquiry should light; whether it should be the first lord of
The navy of this country was confessedly inadequate to
the admiralty, or the first lord of the treasury, or on either
our occasions. It was not the question, whether it was equal
or all of the secretaries of state. He thought them all guilty,
to the navy which Lord Hawke left when he went out of
and punishment could not fail to be just, if it fell on either;
office, though he could prove that the fleet, at the second
but he must pay regard to the constitution. Our consti-
year of the war, was not nearly equal to that of the year
tution, then, pointed out the particular minister who was
175 9 ; but it was with the state of the French and Spanish
bound to give advice to his sovereign in naval concerns, and
navy that the comparison ought to be made. It was the duty
who was consequently responsible for naval measures. That
of the first lord of the admiralty to prepare a fleet able to
minister was the first lord of the admiralty. A subaltern
cope with that of the enemy, whatever it might be; and
commissioner of that board, and which he once had the
when he saw equipments going on in the French and Spanish
honour himself to be, would be bound, if he should receive
marine, it was his business, and it was his indispensable duty
an order, from a secretary of state, to send a number of
to take the alarm, and exert the powers of this country for
ships, with a particular commander, on any given expedi-
our defence. Would any man venture to say that the means
tion, to execute that order strictly and literally, without pre-
had been denied him? Would any man venture to slander the
suming to examine the propriety or the wisdom of the mea-
House of Commons with the charge of parsimony? Surely
sure. He could not argue on the point, because he had
none would. It might safely and truly be imputed to them
not the means of judging. He knew not the grounds on
that they had been- lavish and wasteful, in cases where ex-
which the order was made. He knew not the intelligence,
pence was not wanted, or where it was improper: but no
and he ought not to know it, nor the facts, nor the argu-
man would say of them that they had been fastidious or nar-
ments, nor the reasoning on which it bad been adopted by
row; that they had denied useful sums, or crippled the ne-
the cabinet. It was, therefore, his immediate duty to obey
cessary service. As the nation had felt ail the hardships of
the mandate; but if the order had been sent by the same se-
extravagance, it might certainly have been expected that
cretary of state to the first lord of the admiralty, the case was
they should have reaped also some of the benefits. This,
very different. He, as well as the secretary, was a counsellor
however, had not been the case. The Earl of Sandwich had
of the king, and he knew, or ought to know, all,the-grounds •
ognroNuvulicls
which
procured lavish grants; he had the command of the national
,1 the order was made. If; therefore, knowing these
purse, but he bad failed to provide for his country a fleet
he disapproved of the measure; if he considered it
4
8
MOTION FOR AN ENQUIRY INTO
[Jan. 24..
1732.]
THE ILL SUCCESS OF THE NAVY.
9
as inconvenient or dangerous, it was his duty, and he was
very worthy and industrious friend of his, Mr. Temple Lut-
bound to disobey it. It was a power necessary to his office,
trell, knowing that the first thing a statesman had to do,
to exercise his discretion in every measure which he executed,
before he embarks in a war, is to examine whether his ,means
since without discretion there could be no responsibility.
are sufficient for carrying it on, moved in his place, that the
This was the true constitutional doctrine, and it was this
navy of England in its then state, was inadequate to the exi-
which would give firmness and stability to our government,
zsencies of the empire. This motion, Mr. Fox said, he had
if left. unshackled by influence. But it was no wonder, that
the honour to second; but, though obviously founded in truth,
a noble lord (Mulgrave) should by the circumstances of his
it was rejected by a majority : ministers then boasted of the
situation, his friendship, his familiarity, and other reasons,
formidable and still growing state of the navy, and parlia-
he apt to confound the minister with the subaltern, and
ment and the nation at large were given to understand, that
speak with some confusion on the subject of responsibility,
we actually had, at that time, a naval force equal to every
since he might, though only an inferior lord of that board,
possible exigency of the state. At the same time the House
fancy himself, in the House of Commons,, the prime minister
was told from the treasury bench, that if it were not the
of the Admiralty.
case, it would be impolitic and dangerous to publish it to the
The honourable gentleman now entered into an enumera-
world. What truth there was in such assertions experience
tion of the instances of mismanagement of our navy, which
soon pointed out, and the public found that the assertions of
had occurred in the course of the last five years, by which
ministers, and the flattering picture drawn by them of the
the House would see what were the particular points to
navy of England, were illusive. For so far had a noble lord
which he meant to call their attention in the proposed en-
in office gone, (Lord Mulgrave,) that in the present session of
quiry. This he did with that historical precision and accu-
parliament he had asserted not only that we were inferior to
racy for which he is remarked, beginning with the com-
France at sea; but that it was in the nature of things
mencement of hostilities between this country and France,
absolutely impossible that we should be equal to her, when-
and tracing the naval minister through all the series of his
ever she should turn her thoughts entirely to our marine:
measures year by year. We cannot presume to follow him
here the illusion ended; and here we were undeceived by
with correctness. He said, that as early as the year 1776
ministers; the motion he alluded to, had this tendency, to
his majesty's ministers must have supposed that France
make ministers reflect beforehand, and consider the strength
would interfere in our contest for America. He took this
of France and England, before we should break with the
for granted, because at so early a date they applied to his
French; and after they should have, by mature deliberation,
honourable friend, Admiral Koppel, to know whether he
discovered what must be their own inferiority in a contest
would take upon him an important naval command. From
with America and France united, to persuade them to make
this application he collected the circumstance of their ,appre-
peace with America, and, by so doing, either prevent the
hension of a French war, because knowing the sentiments of
war with France, or be enabled to bring our whole force
that great admiral on the subject of the American question,
against her, and crush her navy at a blow. If this had been
they could not presume to offer him an appointment to fight
done, that country, which used to be stiled the British empire
against the Americans. He did not mean to say, that
in America, might be, perhaps, independant; but it would
because Admiral Keppel would not fight against the Ame.
not have been French.
ricans, those officers were guilty who had accepted of com-
But the circumstance to which he wished to allude in this
mands against them. God forbid 1 Many gallant gentlemen
matter was the bold contrast which there was in the language
had been employed in that service from mistaken principles
of gentlemen on the opposite side of the House. In 1776,
of discipline, and some from an early conviction of the recti-
before we went to war, it was declared to be impolitic and
tude of our cause. lie only meant to say, that Admiral
dangerous to say that our navy was inferior to that of the
Keppel, with his sentiments on that question, would have
enemy; even if it should really be so, we must not venture
been unpardonable if he had accepted of a command. The
to speak the truth. But in 1 7 81, a member of the board of
ministry then knew so early as 1776, that the French would
declares in the face of the whole world, during
interfere, and from that moment at least, if not before, they
the fourth year of a war with France and Spain, that our
ought to have begun their equipments to act with deeision
navy was not only inferior, but that it must necessarily be
against France in the beginning of the war. At that time a
inferior to that of the enem y, at all times when the enemy
10
MOTION TOR AN ENQUIRY INTO
[Jan. 243
1782.3
THE ILL SUCCESS OF THE NAVY.
I t
pleased. The gentlemen in opposition were blamed fog
there were between thirty and forty line-of-battle ships ready
giving improper intelligence to the enemy in the year 1776.
for sea. This plan of cruising in the winter had been the fa-
The noble lord of the Admiralty was, no doubt, praised for
vourite measure of his majesty's ministers, and had contri-
giving them intelligence in the year 1781. It was dange-
r,
-
buted more than any thing else to the lateness of all our ex-
rous before we went to war to tell the French and Spaniards
peditions. by which he had always been behind-hand with the
what we thought of our force : it was perfectly safe to in-
enemy; 'for the consequence was, that from the damages
form them of it when we were involved in a war with them,
which they sustained, and which were almost inseparable from
and surrounded in a manner unprecedented in English history.
a channel cruize, they were sent into dock to be repaired, at
The noble lord talked of the despondency of not looking our
a time when it became known that the French were arming
misfortunes in the face but mark the difference of the noble
as fast as possible : had these ships been in readiness, which
lord's conduct and his words. We must not look our mis-
they might have been, if they had not been employed in a
fortunes in the face, nor examine our situation with steady,
service that ought properly to have been performed by fri-
resolute minds, when examination would be advantageous,
gates, we might have insisted that the French should have
because seasonable ; when by examination we might have pre-
immediately disarmed, or we might have fallen upon them be-
vented the calamities that ensued ; but we must examine and
fore they were prepared, and so have crushed them before
publish our weakness to all the world ; nay, we must go out
they would have been able to strike a blow.
of the way, and without being called or solicited, inform our
This was the cause of that shameful deficiency which Ad-
enemies at the very moment when they are ready to attack
miral Keppel found when he went down in March, 1778,
us in every quarter of the world, that we are inferior to them,
and found only six ships of the line fit for sea. Thus, to use
and must he so ! It seemed all the way through the present
an expression to which he supposed the admiralty would not
administration, that the ministers, as if they had been really
object, " a glorious opportunity was lost" of striking an ef-
the servants of France, thought only of the best means of in-
fectual blow at the French navy, and crushing them by a
volving us in wars, but took no pains to bring us out of them
decisive stroke in the infancy of the war ; for had Admiral
ag,
i
again. They kept their weakness concealed tillt was too late
Keppel been sent to sea with his squadron at an early period
for the people to know it, and then they were the first them-
of the campaign, what might not have been the conse-
selves to reveal it.
quence ? Instead of this, he was detained, -as if this faithful
But they knew so early as 1776 of the approaching Am
servant of the king of France, the first lord of the admi-
rican war, and that we should have occasion to prepare for
ralty, was waiting till the French were ready to meet us.
the rupture with all the industry, skill, and zeal, which we
Then, and not till then, he sent Admiral Keppel to sea with
could exert. How did they do this ? They sent all the fri-
twenty ships to fight twenty-seven, an odds so formidable,
gates of England to the American seas, for the great national
as, in fact, to endanger the very existence of the empire.
purpose of destroyingthe American trade. This was an ob-
When he sailed with twenty ships, he was given to under-
ject so much at heart, that they not only sent all their fri-
stand that his force was superior to any that the enemy had
gates to America, leaving the European seas totally unpro-
to bring against him ; and he believed them; but what was
vided with small ships, but they also employed the line of
his disappointment, what must have been his indignation,
battle ships during the whole of the winter of 1778 in cruiz,
at finding that the enemy, contrary to his expectations, had
ing, for the purpose of making captures of American traders :
twenty-seven sail of the line at sea ? Here they imposed on
even in the very moment when the treaty was signing between
their commander ; but it was their vanity in having a fleet
France and America, were the large ships of Britain tossing
in the channel, that made them impose upon him : had they
about in the seas, encountering all the dangers and injuries
been as di
nt as they were vain of this parade, they might
line
of winter storms, for the sake of pillaging American craft.
a
have had sufficient force under Admiral Keppel, to have
What was the consequence? They were torn to pieces; and
destroyed the French navy at a blow ; and thus have pre-
in the beginning of the campaign, when Admiral Keppel went
vented all the disgraces and disasters that have since -be-
down to take upon him the command of the grand fleet,
he found but six ships ready for sea, although it was a well-
iecaienitielcliigteince of the equipment of a squadron at Toulon
known, notorious fact, that the Earl of Sandwich had, in his
country some months before that squadron
place in the House of Peers, declared some weeks before, that
was ready to sail ; it was known here that some persons-of
12
MOTION FOR AN ENQUIRY INTO •
[Jan. 24.
1782.]
.THE ILL SUCCESS OF THE NAVY.
distinction were to embark in it as passengers : this and a
fended it, indeed, in a manner which would do him and his
• variety of other circumstances pointed out, beyond a doubt,
country honour, while bravery and abilities should be es-
that America was the quarter to which this armament was
teemed in the world: he defended the island with a force
destined : and yet though all England knew this ; though
more than three times less than that of the enemy ; and yet,
the preparations were public during the months of January,
exclaimed Mr. Fox, Admiral Barrington is now on shore !
February, March, and April, yet not a syllable of this had
He must speak a little on that circumstance. The admiral
been sent to Lord Howe in America till the middle of June,
was said to have come on shore because he would not accept
at least the dispatches were dated the 6th of May. Nay, so
of the principal command of the fleet.
far had the ministers been from giving Lord Howe notice of
When he had spoken in debate of the number of brave
his danger, before the date of these dispatches, that they
officers who were driven by the Earl of Sandwich from the
had even sent him orders to detach a part of his force to the
service, and it had been a subject of conversation, Lord Howe
West Indies. He was just preparing to execute this order,
desired that no gentleman would give reasons fbr his conduct.
when he heard, but not from ministry, of the expected ar-
This had been erroneously supposed to apply to what had fal-
rival of Count d'Estaing in those seas. He then, with that
len from him. In fact, it came from the noble lord on ac-
manly foresight, which distinguishes an able commander;
count of the reason which Lord Lisburne gave fbr Admiral •
kept his force together, and by a singular effort of genius
Barrington's retiring; it was, his lordship said, because he
vtnd naval skill, preserved his fleet and the army by an ar-
had weak nerves. This gave a pretty good idea of the reason
rangement which would place his name among the most cele-
of so many brave men withdrawing themselves from the ser-
brated of our British admirals. Such were the dispositions
vice. Had Admiral Barrington weak nerves ? He had not
made by his lordship, such the spirit and abilities displayed
I
weak nerves, when, with five ships of the line, he stood and
by him against Count d'Estaing, that he defeated that officer
beat off fifteen of the enemy. But he whose nerves were
with a very inferior force ; or if he did not literally gain
not weak when he met a host of foes, shrunk from a closer
a victory over him, at least he gained the substance of one ;
interview, and a responsible coiinection with the Earl of Sand-
fortunately, indeed, for his own honour, but unfortunately-,
wich. Admiral Barrington was a man, from whose connec-
perhaps, for this country ; for if the army that was saved by
tions it might be expected that he would not be unfriendly to
this victory had been captured, we should not at this day
ministry, but yet he had apprehensions of the Earl of Sand-
have such a load of debt upon our shoulders and have lost so
wich. This was the cause of so many brave men retiring.
many armies, for our ministers would have been obliged to
This was the cause of their choosing to withdraw themselves
make peace with America. By the winter's cruize of our
from a post where they had greater enemies to meet than the
two-deck ships in the Channel, and the subsequent repairs,
French and Spaniards. They showed us that there was a
Admiral Byron was prevented from sailing time enough to
man at the head of our naval affairs, whose quality and cun-
dispute the passage of the , Mediterranean with Count
ning it was to make even bravery useless to his country.
d'Estaing ; and the same cause continuing to operate, together
The year 1 77 9 presented us with a repetition of the plan
with the absurdity of our ministers, we were not able after,
and misconduct of I773. Late eruizing in the winter pre-
wards to prevent the sailing of M. de Grasse and M. de Ia
vented early equipments in the campaign. The Spanish war
Motte Piquet, with reinforcements to Count d'Estaing ;
broke out, and the first lord of the admiralty, as if he wished
the consequence was, that Admiral Byron had the mortifi-
only to fight the battles of our enemies, never once attempted
cation to arrive time enougheto see Grenada taken, our most
to prevent the French and Spaniards from meeting, joining,
valuable settlement in the 'West Indies after Jamaica. As
and insulting us in the channel. Sir Charles hardy was sent
dilatory in instructing and strengthening the hands of their
to sea without instructions to prevent the junction of the ene-
officers abroad, as they were in fitting oat the ships at home,
my, and it was only Providence, our good great Ally,
the ministers had ordered Admiral Barrington to wait at Bar-
that saved us, by sending an eastern wind, and a distemper,
badoes till he should be reinforced : he, too, from superior
tboutd:hve
lene
the enemy from our doors. Sir Charles Hardy stole
information, ventured to disobey these orders, and saved St.
along the French coast in order to avoid seeing the enemy,
Lucia ; but so slow were ministers in sending out reinforce-
got into Torbay, and the Earl of Sandwich was
ments. that had Commodore Hotham arrived only one day
Perfectly assured that the enemy was safe in Brest water, he
-later than he did, St. Lucia would have been lost : he de-
cOmmenced his exertions, and all was hurry and confusion at
1 4
iVOTION FOR AN ENQUIRY INTO
[Jan. 24.
THE ILL SUCCESS OP THE NAVY.
IS
1782.]
the dock-yards, that hurry which he constantly mistakes for
the enemy. In this year again the same fault was observable
diligence; and when the clamour ran high, and the people
with respect to late sailing. No attempt was made either to
felt the indignity that had been offered to them, he promised
prevent the fleets from joining, or to prevent the sailing of
them that they should have a good account of the enemy.
M. Ternay for America with that military force which had
The next piece of misconduct was in the manner of dispatch-
lately captured the army of Earl Cornwallis. The same
ing Admiral Rodney to the West Inches. A French squadron
scheme of bombastic gasconade still prevailed, and ships and
under Count de &Michell, had sailed for that destination, and
fleets were employed 5n needless cruizes, merely for the pur-
very g
alarmin appearances ensued. It was exceedingly ne-
alarming
pose of saying, that we were in possession of the seas when
Cessary that
George should be there as soon as possible.
the enemy were in port. It -Was in this year that Commo-
In order therefore to facilitate his passage, he is sent to relieve
dore Fielding was sent with six ships of the line to intercept
Gibraltar, by which he is detained a considerable time, and
Admiral Bland with one. This circumstance made the as-
the enem y are left in the quiet enjoyment of this opportunity
sertion of Lord North, " that the Dutch war was a war of
of reinforcing the squadron at Martinique. We had it in
necessity, and not of choice, as we suffered more from them
Our power to have got the start of De Guichen, for the fleet
while they were insidious friends than since they are become
which was dispatched straight, arrived in the \\Vest Indies be-
open enemies," intelligible; it was to him inexplicable till of
fore the French squadron. We might therefore have inter-
late, but now he saw its meaning and acknowledged the truth
cepted their passage, and fought them separate. It was true
of the observation ; for when they were friends, we sent six
that Sir George Rodney's squadron destroyed nine- of the
ships to fight one; but when they became enemies, we sent
enemy's ships, a capital advantage, and indeed the only thing
only five ships to fight eight. This was the plan of Lord
that had the consequences of a victory through the whole
Sandwich. As soon as a nation became our enemy, he
war; but were ministers to be praised for what they did not
lowered the opposition that we made to it, and thus it plain-
contrive, and what they did not foresee ? It was Providence
ly appeared, that they were more injurious to us when friends
again, and the bravery of Sir George Rodney's fleet, but not
than now when enemies for they then detached more of our
:die Earl of Sandwich that gave us that advantage. In the
'
men of war than now from the contest with the House of
West Indies the French and Spaniards formed a junction,
Bourbon.
and Sir George Rodney, who is fond of promising to give a
The honourable gentleman then came to the year 178r,
good account, and not very apt to be depressed by the mis-
the memorable period of our disgraces and infamy; and he
fortunes of his country, fairly owned that he durst not meet
particularly described the naval transactions. The rupture
them. Here, then, ruin stared us in the face, every one of
with Spain was the first memorable event of this period, a
our islands lay at the mercy of our enemy; but there seemed,
measure so scandalously impolitic, and so infamously brought
said the honourable gentleman, to be a Lord Sandwich in
about, that ministers ought to be impeached for that alone.
their councils, and Cod grant that there may always be a
Though ministers seemed in the Dutch war to be actuated
Lord Sandwich in their councils! They met, and separated
by a spirit of resentment, they did not know how to wreak it
without doing any thing.
on the Dutch : if they had had a mind to crush them, and
The year 173o was remarkable for the capture of an im-
God forbid, said he, that the Dutch should ever be crushed,
mense fleet of merchantmen and transports under Commodore
forthen indeed the present system of Europe would be no
Moutray, and the circumstances of the case were striking :
more ! but if they wished to crush Holland, they should have
they gave another suspicion among all the other parts of Lord.
had a fleet in the Texel to awe the Dutch, and force them to
Sandwich's conduct, that he was intent on doing good and
yield to the terms of England ; no such measure was adopt-
faithful service to his masters of the House of Bourbon. At
ed: instead of that five ships only were sent into the North
least if they had been his masters, it could not have been more
Seas. Providence, indeed, but no thanks to the admiralty,
consistent with duty to have ordered Captain Moutray to de--
had sent the Berwick to join Admiral Parker : but why the
liver up his invaluable convoy to the jaws of the enemy, than
Sampson was not sent by their lordships no one could tell.
to do as he had done; for at the very moment when he knew
It was true, indeed, that they sent to the coast of Norway,
that the Spanish fleet were cruizing off the coast of Spain he
to let him know that she lay at the Gunfleet; and that if he-
-
ordered Captain Moutray_to rendezvous at Madeira; that is
wanted her he might send for her. Thus time was lost; she
to say, to go in the very track where he would fall it with,
night have been the messenger herself; and then our admi-
6
MOTION FOR AN ENQUIRY INTO
[Jan. 24.
17 82.]
THE ILL SUCCESS OF THE NAVY.
rI
ral, no doubt, would have gained a decisive victory over the
out, and seized our St. Eustatius fleet, with all the plunder
Dutch. The Sampson was indeed sent to him, but she
of that island. Comte de Grasse put to sea; and though by
arrived the day after the engagement.
a proper use of the force we had at that very time cruising,
Our Channel fleet was still, as formerly, too late to prevent
we might have defeated him, and prevented all the dreadful
the junction of the French and Spaniards, or even to attempt
consequences that afterwards attended his expedition, he was
it. Their fleets appeared again at the mouth of the Channel;
permitted to proceed ; and the last consequence of our having
Admiral Darby sent an account of it to the admiralty; but
suffered him to pass us, was the surrender of Lord Cornwallis:.,
there he was laughed at—he was not believed : the mayor of
which could never have been effected without his naval force.
Bristol sent to the admiralty to know if the report was true
When Admiral Darby was at Gibraltar with a very fine fleet,
that the enemy was on the coast; and an answer was sent to
he should have been instructed to detach a part of it to the
him by Mr. Stephens, by order of Lord Sandwich, that there
West Indies, if he should not meet with any opposition in
was no such thing; and that Admiral Darby had put back
relieving Gibraltar : such instructions would have effectually
into Torbay, only for refreshments: thus was that admiral
saved Lord Cornwallis, by giving us a superiority in the
spit upon by the first lord of the admiralty ; and the infor-
West Indies: but our ministers never thought before-hand :
mation he had given treated as a lie. Such was the manner
at an earlier period of the war, when Lord Shuldham vas
in which the first lord of the admiralty treated an admiral
sent out with a very capital force, to protect a great con-
commanding the naval power of Britain ; and such was the
voy, he was not instructed to do any thing against the
sort of treatment which had driven men of fine feelings from
enemy.
the service ! He knew not how Admiral Darby felt it; he
In the West Indies we had been indulged with Sir George
had heard an excellent character of that gentleman, and he
Rodney's frequent promises to give good accounts of the ene-
believed him to be incapable of brooking so palpable an in-
my's fleets, when all lie had been able to do, was to fight
sult. How it had been settled he knew not, but the fact was
some drawn battles ; which were, he contended, generally
so ; and further it was perfectly well known, that Admiral
followed with the loss of some of our islands, and therefore,
Darby had returned to port with the advice of his officers, in
in effect, were as bad as defeats. He had been employed in
consequence of the appearance of the combined fleets. The
the despicable plunder of St. Eustatius while the island of
mayor, however, received a letter from Lord Shuldham in
Tobago was taken ; and the business of this great conquest
about a quarter of an hour after the receipt of Mr. Stephen's
was not discussed time enough to prevent the catastrophe of
letter, in which his lordship confirmed the report, that the
our American career. But the last measure was the most
enemy were in the Channel, and warned the mayor to com-
abandoned of all, and which particularly demanded,the in-
municate the intelligence to the merchants. The conse-
vestigation of that House, the sending out Admiral Kempen-
quence of the admiralty letter would have been to decoy the
felt with a force so inferior to that of the enemy. This had
trade of Bristol into the hands of the enemy, just as Captain
impressed the whole kingdom with surprise and indignation :
Moutray's convoy had been sent into the hands of the
either the admiralty were deficient in the necessary informa-
Spaniards, by having been ordered to rendezvous at Madeira,
tion, or they were negligent in having taken proper advan-
while the enemy were cruizing in his track. It seemed, how-
tage of it ; in either case their conduct was equally criminal.
ever, that though the admiralty knew nothing of the com-
The ministry had heard that the French were doing some-
bined fleets last year in the Channel, or pretended not to
thing, and upon inquiry found, that they had fifteen ships
know any thing of them, Lord Stormont had written to Mr.
of the line at Brest, and two at Rochford. The naval mi-
Eden in Dublin, to warn him that they were gone to cruize
nister knew the French had twenty-one sail, but he took
off the coast of Ireland, and it was pretty evident that this
it into his head that only twelve would sail to the West In-
letter was precisely- of the same date with that from the
dies, not thinking, as he should have done, that the other
admiralty to the mayor of Bristol, in which that magistrate
nine would bear them company to a certain latitude. He
was informed that the enemy was not on the coast.
thnerefore thought, as only twelve ships were going to the West
The combined fleets separated last year early in Septem-
I dies, that twelve ships could intercept them, and Admiral
ber; but our fleet, as usual, was kept at sea to make an
Kempenfelt accordingly is dispatched with that force to inter-
empty parade after the enemy had quitted their station.
cept them; when lo ! as might have been expected, the French
They were cruizing about, while M. de la Motte Picquet came
fleet amounts to nineteen sail ! In consequence of which, the
voL.
C
t 8
MOTION FOR AN INQUIRY INTO
[Jan. 24,
1782.)
THE ILL SUCCESS OF THE NAVY.
19
British commander dares not attack them, and the object of
the ships in winter cruizes ; and losing every advantage of lo-
their destination is pursued. Providence, indeed, so often
cal situation, and priority of appearance at sea, to prevent the
our friends, interferes ; throws some of their transports into
junction of the enemies. These were the points, and to these
our hands, and destroys others by a storm. To render this
every gentleman, whether landman or seaman, would be com-
matter still more censurable, and unfold the designs of the
petent, because they were measures of simple policy. It was
first lord of the admiralty, at the very time Admiral Kem-
a subject which they must enter upon now or hereafter with
penfelt was sent out with an inferior force, ships fit for action
seriousness. We had acted too long from our hopes ; we
were then lying in the Downs and other places._ They
must now yield to our judgment; and he warned the House
were indeed stationed there to annoy the Dutch trade, but
not to sport longer with the feelings of a great suffering na-
their being withdrawn a few days from that station could
tion ; nor presume to ruin a people for the sake of a man.
have produced no ill consequence, that could have been put
He meant to move for a variety of papers, but they were of a
in competition with the advantages that would have been de-
nature that would take up a day or two to prepare. His first
rived from it.
motion, that for an inquiry, he doubted not, would pass with-
As to Sir George Rodney, no part of his fleet, it was said,
out objection. He then moved, " That it be referred to a
could be spared for the purpose of attacking M. Vaudreuil.
committee, to enquire into the causes of the want of success of
The honourable gentleman could not but admire this sort of
his majesty's naval forces during the war, and more particu-
excuse, as if it was not better to stop the French from going
larly in the year 178x."
to the West Indies than to follow them thither ; for the
most that had been urged was, that it would have delayed
Lord North and Lord Musgrave, after having replied to several
his sailing to the West Indies ; not thinking, as more ra-
observations made by Mr. Fox, expressed their cheerful_concur-
tional men would have done, that if M. Va.udreuil could have
rence in the motion. The committee was ordered to be a com-
mittee of the whole House.
been destroyed here, there would have been no occasion to
have sent any body to another part of the world to have
Februau
done it.
7.
The honourable gentleman remarked, that we had now
The House resolved itself into the said committee. As soon as
been at war for some years, and, excepting in the case of Ad-
the committee was formed, the clerks, one relieving the other,
miral Kempenfelt, no endeavour had ever been made to inter-
read through all the papers that had at various times been laid
cept the enemy. No one instance had ever presented itself of
upon the table, in consequence of motions made by Mr. Fox. The
an attempt to prevent the enemy from sailing. That of Ad-
reading of these papers took up three hours. This being done,
miral Kempenfelt had been the very first of the kind ; and it
was therefore no wonder, that the minister of the naval de-
Mr. Pox rose to move a resolution of censure, founded on
partment should have shewn himself such a novice. It had
the facts contained in the papers. He said, that if they had
turned out that the two ships left behind to harass the enemy
been laid upon the table time enough to have been sufficiently
had done essential service. Unskilled as he was in profes-
perused by gentlemen, it would have been totally unnecessary
sional matters, he could not help asking if Admiral Kempen-
for him to make any remarks upon their contents ; for the
felt had continued to harass them with his whole force, whe-
mismanagement of our marine appeared so glaringly from the
ther he could not have done infinitely more service with his
evidence of those papers, that they required no elucidation.
twelve ships than was effected by the two that did remain at
But care had been taken, that they should not come before
sea; and whether his ships, being copper-bottomed, might not
the House in such time, that the members could have com-
have a very great advantage of the enemy ?
pletely digested them before it was necessary to ground any
r
Mr. Fox said, that these were the principal points to which
esolution on them ; and they were produced in such' order,
he wished the intended inquiry to turn. The year 178 I gave
or rather disorder and confusion, that it was almost impossi-
an epitome of all the blunders of the war ; and therefore, for
ble, after a cursory reading by the clerks, to combine the
the sake of dispatch, he would confine his proposition chiefly
different parts that related to each other. It was on this
to that period; not however forgetting the other years. The
account only that he thought himself excusable in making a
few ob
leading, points in the inquiry then would be the naval opera-
servations, which he intended to confine to four differ-
tions of 1781 in their regular order the practice of tearing
ent heads.
C 2
20
MOTION FOR AN INQUIRY INTO
[Feb. 7.
5782.]
THE ILL SUCCESS OF THE NAVY..
2 1
But before:he would touch upon these heads, lie judged it
West Indies, without making a single effort to intercept him.
not improper to throw out a few ideas to the committee, on
From the papers on the table, it was manifest that he had had
subjects, which, (though they were at present out of the
the best and most minute intelligence of the equipment,
bounds of the inquiry he intended to press, the occurrences to
strength, and destination of the force under that officer ; it
which he should allude, having happened out of the year
was equally clear that he knew the time, or very nearly, when
1781, to which year he meant to confine the enquiry for the
the Comte was to sail; and yet not the least attempt was made
present,) were by no means inapplicable to the great object of
to block up Brest, or give the enemy battle after they had
the.inquiry. The instructions given to Sir Charles Hardy,
set out. There were two circumstances which in this case
to prevent a junction of the French and Spanish fleets, had
rendered the first lord of the admiralty highly criminal : one
not been laid before the House; and he had submitted to it,
was, that the object of Comte de Grasse's expedition was of
though he was not convinced by the reasons given for with-
the most dangerous nature to this country : it was to destroy
holding them ; but he must needs say, that if Sir Charles was
its empire in the west, and in some measure to blot the Bri-
not instructed to prevent such a junction, though, at the time
tish name out of that part of the world ; but great as these
alluded to, we were not at war with Spain, it was an unpar-
objects were, he was permitted to pursue them without the
donable, nay, a criminal neglect in the admiralty. From
least molestation on the part of Lord Sandwich.
the papers just read, it appeared indeed, that Admiral Geary
The other circumstance which rendered that naval minister
had received instructions for that purpose; but it was at a
highly criminal was, that at the very time he had a force at
time when there was every degree of probability, nay, when
sea, equal to the complete destruction of Comte de Grasse and
it was known that the fleets, which he was to have kept
his fleet. Admiral Darby was then at sea with thirty ships
asunder, had actually joined before he received his orders ;
of the line, well equipped, well manned, and in the best con-
such had been the diligence of the first lord of the admiralty,
dition. But the evil genius of England would have it that
such his attention to the interests of his country ! Another
Lord Sandwich should send such orders to Admiral Darby,
thing very remarkable was, that from the i st ofJanuary, 1779,
as must necessarily leave a free passage for M. de Grasse ;
to the beginning of March 1 7 81, not one single frigate had
our fleet, consisting of thirty line of battle ships, put to sea the
been stationed off Brest, to watch the motions of the enemy.
13th of March, 178 i ; the French admiral, with twenty-five
This was a circumstance, which, he was convinced, even the
ships of the line, sailed the 22d; so that if .Admiral•Darby had
greatest enemies to Lord Sandwich would scarcely have be-
not been sent out of the way, there would have scarcely been a
lieved, if it did not stand confirmed by the papers that had
possibility of the latter avoiding an engagement with us, either
been read ; and what was still more singular than this omis-
before we got to Gibraltar, or on our return from it. But
sion, or rather shameful neglect, when frigates were sent in the
Lord Sandwich, as if fearing that the French should be de-
month of March to cruize off Brest, it was at a time when
stroyed, sent orders to Admiral Darby to cruize off the coast
their cruize could not be attended with any useful discovery,
of Ireland, to wait for the store-ships and victuallers that were
for it was at a time when there was no armament carrying on
to join him from Cork. Here was he stationed till the 27th
in that port, all the squadrons which were intended for seaiav-
of March, before he was joined by the transports : in the mean
ing long before sailed for their different destinations. He had
time, the French continued their voyage without the smallest
moved
long a list of the ships employed for the defence of Jer-
interruption ; and what was the consequence ? He really
sey, at. the time of the attack upon that island; but the return
wanted words to describe it; the consequence was as dreadful
made to his motion was far from being satisfactory, in fact it
as if London had been burnt ; we had lost our islands; Sir
was no return at all; for having called for the ships employed
Samuel Hood had been defeated, or nearly so ; and our fosses
for. the defence of the island at the time it was attacked, the
and disgraces were completed by the surrender of Lord Corn-
return made was a list of ships sent to Jersey, after the expe-
wallis's army at York-Town.
dition against it had miscarried. Having said thus much
He desired gentlemen to consider that the naval minister
by way of preface, Mr. Fox came immediately to the year
had it in his power to prevent all these disasters, and to. have
.1731; to the naval transactions of which year he confined the
crushed them in the very embryo, by sending Admiral Darby
inquiry. In this year, he found four principal heads of ac-
to meet Comte de Grasse; but instead of doing it, he sent
cusation against Lord Sandwich.
the British fleet to cruize in a quarter where it must be en-
First; that he suffered Comte de Grasse to sail for the.
tirely out of the track of the French. He desired they would
C 3
MOTION roe. AV INQUIRY INTO
[Feb. 7.
I782.]
THE ILL SUCCESS OF THE NAVY.
23
consider that it was not for want of intelligence of the designs,
to the first lord of the admiralty, as the committee had learned
number, and strength of the enemy, that he omitted sending
from the papers, that a squadron was fitting out at Brest,
Admiral Darby to meet M. de Grasse; but it was after hav-
the command of which was given to M< de la Motte Piquet.
ing had the most correct intelligence on the subject, that he
Admiral Darby was then lying off the coast of Ireland ; but
sent our fleet to Ireland. He desired gentlemen would con-
no orders were sent to him on the subject Admiral Rod-
sider this, and say whether it was credible that it could have.
ney's letter said, the Eustatius convoy was perhaps the
happened without treachery somewhere? But supposing
richest that had ever been bound for England. Mr. Fox
treachery totally out of the question, those who should think
observed, that . as to the riches that were on board of it, when
so far favourably of Lord Sandwich, as to suppose him in-
he considered how they had been acquired, they were the
capable of treachery, must still in candour admit, that from
riches, the loss of which, of all others, he should least regret;
the evidence contained in the papers just read, he was totally
but still, as it was the duty of the first lord of the admiralty
inadequate to the management of the navy of this country.
to protect it, his neglect was alone sufficient to strew how dis-
No one could conceive the reason why a fleet of 30 ships
qualified he was for the office he held. The squadron under
of the line should be sent out of their way to Ireland to meet
De la Motte Piquet had been a considerable time fitting out;
the transports from Cork, which ought to have been ordered
very regular intelligence had been transmitted to the admi-
to join the fleet in the channel ; if that had been the case,
ralty, of the progress of preparations during the months of
there was not a doubt but Admiral Darby would have given.
February, March, and April; and yet not one step had been_
a good account of the French; and perhaps he might have
taken to guard against it : and this was the more criminal, as
arrived time enough to fall upon the rear of the Spanish
we were at the time in almost daily expectation of the arrival
.fleet, which, _after a cruize of two months, was returning in
of the Jamaica, as well as the St. Eustatius fleet : no prepa-
very foul condition, to Cadiz. It was a very great injury
ration, however, was made to afford them protection ; and all
to cur affairs, that Comte de Grasse should not have been
that was don.e was, that two frigates had been dispatched to
intercepted in the European seas; but still, an able first lord
meet them if possible, warn them of their danger; and enable.
of the admiralty might have seen, that it was not irreparable;
them to avoid it, if they could, by making some port in Ire-
for -he might still have defeated the Comte's expedition, by a
land, or going north about. One of the frigates fortunately
proper detachment from Admiral Darby's fleet. It was his
fell in with the Jamaica fleet, which accidentally escaped the
business to have given orders to our commander to detach
danger ; but the St. Eustatius convoy was taken, at least in
to the West Indies, if it should so happen that the Spa-
part, on the 2d and 3 d of May. The convoy had been
niards should not dispute the passage of the Streights with
expected ever since the receipt of Sir George Rodney's letter
us. A minister of common foresight would have said to his
on the 25th of March, and Lord Sandwich knew of the pre-
admiral, either the Spaniards will fight you on your way to
parations of M. de la Motte Piquet from the beginning of
Gibraltar, or they will not. If they should not, then you
February, and yet no step had been taken to protect the one,
will immediately dispatch a part of your fleet to the West
or defeat the other; nay, so great was the negligence of the
Indies, to counteract the Comte de Grasse. This would
first lord of the admiralty, that he never thought of making
have been the language of a provident minister ; but it was
Admiral Darby acquainted with the expected arrival of the
not the language of Lord Sandwich. If he had so instructed
St. Eustatius convoy, till the r oth of May ; and then dis-
Admiral Darby, a detachment of clean English ships, with-
patched a frigate to him, to give him orders to sail to a par-
out convoy, would have in all probability j oined Sir Samuel
ticular latitude, in order to protect a convoy, which had been
Flood before the Comte's arrival and in that case there
taken just seven days before the frigate had been dispatched
was every degree of likelihood, that the French would have
t° him : now the probability was, that this frigate could not
been defeated.
reach Admiral Darby in much less than a fortnight; so that
The second head of accusation was the loss of the St. Eus-
near two months had elapsed between the receipt of Sir
tatius convoy. It appeared, from the papers before the com-
George Rodney's letter, giving notice of the sailing of the
mittee, that Sir George Rodney had written to the admiralty
convoy, and the time when Admiral Darby got orders to sail
about this convoy before it sailed; and acquainted the board
for its protection.
with the course it was to steer: this letter was received on
. He asked gentlemen, if this alone was not sufficient to
the 25th of March. When it was received, it was well known
Justify any motion that he should think proper to make against
16
4
2 4
MOTION FOR AN INQUIRY INTO
[Feb. 7>
1782.]
THE ILL SUCCESS or THE NAVY.
25
the first lord of the admiralty ? There was only one excuse,
mayor of Bristol, it appeared that Lord Stormont had, .on the
which however poor for a naval minister, ought to be ad-
very day of the date of the admiralty letter to the mayor, sent
mitted in such a case as the present; and that was, that he
an express to Lord Carlisle, with positive intelligence that the
really had not any force sufficient to cope with M. de la Motte
enemy was in the channel.
Piquet ; but poor as this excuse must be in the mouth of an
The fourth charge related to the management of the Dutch
English naval minister, Lord Sandwich was not fortunate
war. That war was, he said, of all foolish, absurd, and mad
enough to have it; for it appeared from the monthly returns,
undertakings, the most foolish, the most absurd, and the most
that there were ships enough in port, which, from the month
mad. It had been represented to that House, in order to
of March, when Sir George Rodney's letter gave notice of
get them to approve of the war, that the Dutch were in a
the intended sailing of the convoy from St. Eustatius, to the
most defenceless state; that there was a very great party for
latter end of April, might have been got ready. He read a
us in Holland ; and that we had only to make a. vigorous
list of the ships, and, including one or two fifties, there ap-
effort in the beginning, to give that party the superiority in
peared to have been in our different ports twelve sail of the
the councils of the republic. Upon such a state of the case,
line, a force sufficient to have defeated M. de la Motte Piquet :
would not any one have expected, that the naval minister
he read also the returns from the guard ships, stating the
would have signalized the outset of the Dutch war by an
numbers on board, from which he proved, that if we had.
appearance of an English squadron in the Texel ? An attack
ships, so also we had men to put on board of them : so that
might surely be expected to be attended with every success
he concluded, that the loss of the convoy could and ought to
that we could wish for; but nothing was more foreign to the
be attributed only to the mismanagement, or something worse,
intention of Lord Sandwich : he suffered the enemy to equip
of the first lord of the admiralty.
those ships which he might have destroyed in the Texel ; and
The third head of accusation was the letter from the ad-
then brought them to an action, which certainly redounded
miralty to the mayor of Bristol. Admiral Darby, as appeared
greatly to the honour of Admiral Parker and his officers,
from the papers, had acquainted the admiralty, that he had
and of the enemy too; but which was far from ending in so
fallen in with a Swedish brig, the master of which had in-
decisive a victory as might have been expected, over an enemy
formed him, that he had been boarded by a frigate, under
who was represented as weak and enervated. In this case
Spanish colours, belonging to the combined fleets, which were
also, as in that of the St. Eustatius convoy, Lord Sandwich
then in the channel ; and that in consequence of this intelli-
had many ships which he might have sent to reinforce Ad-
gence he bad thought proper to return up the channel for
miral Parker: the Sampson, of 64. guns, was one, which
orders; and had put into Torbay. And here it was to be
instead of sending directly to the admiral, Lord Sandwich
ohserved, that the master of the brig was an Englishman,
sent to the grand fleet, to which place she was to be sent for,
4ho would not deceive his country, and whose journal con-
if wanted. Here he took an opportunity to retract a thing
firmed his story. How did the first lord of the admiralty
which he had asserted, in a former debate, namely, that it
answer•this letter? In an insulting manner, telling the ad-
was mere chance that had made the Berwick fall in with the
mire] he did not believe the intelligence ; and addling, if the
squadron in the North Sea. This he found not to be true,
account had been true that the combined fleets had appeared
for it now appeared that it was by order of the admiralty she
in such a latitude, Admiral Darby must have seen them. In
had joined the squadron. The squadron under a very gal-
answer to the mayor of Bristol, he said that the combined
lant friend of his, and a member of that House, Captain
fleets were not in the channel, and that Admiral Darby had
Keith Stewart, had been kept in the Downs for the purpose
put into' Torbay only to water. 'This he must have known
of watching the Dutch ; how well they had been watched,
at the time to have been a falsehood ; for the admiral in his
the
e. it
safe arrival of Admiral Byland had proclaimed to the
letter assigned a very different reason for returning into port,
world: yet in this, lie presumed, his gallant friend was not
so that it looked as if the naval minister wanted to ensnare
to blame; at least, he had never been called to an account
the trade of Bristol by inducing the merchants to send their
ships to sea, that he might deliver them into the hands of the
ifth, an epitome of all the other charges, he subjoined a
enemy, just as he had sent Captain Moutray into the hands
f
nith, drawn from the latest circumstance, that of the meeting
of Admiral Cordova. But to shew how completely the ad-
between Admiral Kempenfelt and the Brest fleet. He read
xniralty either had been deceived itself; or had deceived the
the names of the ships which might have been sent out to jeil.
26
MOTION FOlt AN INQUIRY INTO
EFCb. 13.
3782.]
THE ILL SUCCESS OT THE NAVY.
27
our rear admiral; and which, including the squadron in the
Downs, made about twenty sail of the line. With this force
February 2o.
which might, he said, have been sent out, it was not to be
Mr. Fox rose to call the attention of the House to a
doubted but through the known bravery and abilities of Ad-
motion which he had intimated against the admiralty board ;
miral Kempenfelt, we should have completely destroyed the
French fleet and convoy.
but he would not trouble the House, he said, with all the
arguments that had been so well and accurately stated by
He concluded, by observing, as he had done already on a
many gentlemen in the committee, respecting the most shame-
former occasion, that his first motion ought to be for the
ful manner in which our naval affairs had been conducted of
removal of Lord Sandwich from his majesty's councils;
late years, for he saw no reason for it; every thing that
but he thought it inexpedient now ; he would first move a
ministers had advanced in favour of the Earl of Sandwich had
censure upon him, and if lie should carry that, he would
been so. ably answered, that he was confident every gentle-
follow it up with an address to the king, which no doubt
man was satisfied in his own mind, and he trusted that there were
would have its effect; and then, undoubtedly, he would pur-
scarcely two opinions in the House. The very respectable
sue the inquiry through every part, when the minister,
number that had divided on this motion in the committee,
whose administration should be the subject of it, should no
although not successful, would, in any other administration
longer be vested with the power to defeat it. He then moved
but the present, have been looked upon as a majority, for it
the following resolution : " That it appears to this committee,
certainly contained the voice of the people r and no minister,
that there has been gross mismanagement in the conduct of
but the present, would think of continuing a man in office
of his majesty's naval affairs, in the year 1 7 8 1."
whom the voice of the people was so much against, and with
so much justice. He had been informed, he said, out of the
The general conduct of the naval war was defended by Lord
House, that many gentlemen would have voted with him in"
Mulgrave, Lord North, and Penton. After a long debate,
in the course of which Mr. Fox was supported by Lord Howe,
the committee, but his declaration of following up his mo-
Mr. Webb, Mr. John Townshend, Mr. Pitt, Sir Fletcher Norton,
tion, if successful, for the dismission and punishment of Lord
Mr. Sheridan, and Admiral Pigot, the committee divided: Yeas
Sandwich, had deterred them : now, he hoped no gentleman
183: Noes 2o5. Majority against Mr. Fox's motion 22.
would mistake him, for they were all different and distinct
propositions • they might vote for one, and reject the other :
February 13.
but he begged leave to caution them against being lulled into
a belief of redress ; for a report had been industriously spread,
Mr. Fox said, that a circumstance had occurred to his
that Lord Sandwich was to retire; that report was therefore
mind, which he did not think of at the time when the debate
calculated merely to serve the particular purpose of the day,
of Thursday last was concluded; and that was, that the reso-
and throw gentlemen off their guard : but what faith was to
lution he had moved that day in the committee, relative to the
be put in the minister's promise was plainly to be seen by
mismanagement of the navy, could not be entered, as the pro-
his former conduct. At the beginning of this session lie
ceedings of a committee must be reported to the House,
promised that the American war should be conducted on a
before they can find their way into the journals; and as in
narrower compass, and that it was to be a war of posts; but
the case he alluded to, the committee had not come to any
no sooner was his end answered, and the supplies voted, than
resolution, his motion having been negatived, there was
he changed his tone, and that brave, gallant, and judicious
of course nothing for the committee to report. He was re-
officer, Sir Guy Carleton, wets appointed to carry on that
solved, however, at all events, that his motion should appear
war. To be sure, to appease the people, one of the chief
upon record, and go down to posterity ; and therefore he
leaders of that war had been removed :" ; but what was the
then gave notice, that on Wednesday next, he would move
consequence of his removal ? a person was appointed in his
in the House, a resolution, substantially, if not literally the
same, as kthat which on Thursday last had been rejected in
the committee.
On the r xth of February, Lord George Germain, disagreeing with
*),
the other members of the cabinet on the future conduct of the war,
resigned his office of one of the principal secretaries of state, and was
raised to the peerage, by the title of Lord Viscount Sackville. His
of ice was bestowed on Mr. Welbore Ellis, afterwards Lord Mendip. •
28
MOTIONS FOR FLITTING AN 'END TO
[Feb. 20.
1782.]
THE AMERICAN WAR.
29
stead who was a known friend to the American war, and a
staunch supporter of it ever since it -first began. Therefore,
GENERAL CONWAY'S MOTIONS FOR PUTTING- AN END TO THE
as we found the minister's promise was not to be relied on,
AMERICAN WAR.
we should not let the opportunity slip ; but while we had it in
our power we ought to have exerted ourselves in doing our
February 22.
country that justice which it loudly called for. He begged
gentlemen not to imagine that his proceeding in this business
THE appointment of Mr. Welbore Ellis to the office of secre-
was in any shape personal against the noble lord who was at
tary of state for the plantation-department, vacant by the
resignation of Lord Sackville, and of Lieutenant-general Sir Guy
the head of the admiralty, nor that it tended to any criminal
Carleton, to succeed the commander-in-chief o 'f the forces in
proceeding. He had nothing to say to the Earl of Sandwich ;
North America, having occasioned a general alarm amongst those
it was to the board of admiralty ; and gentlemen ought not
,vho were persuaded that there still existed a secret and obstinate
to be induced from personal regard to that noble lord to fail
attachment in the court to the prosecution of the war against the
in the execution of their public duty. He therefore hoped
colonies, it was resolved to make another attempt in the House of
every gentlemen would lay his hand upon his heart, and he
Commons, to bind up the hands of the executive government, by
was then confident they must be of his opinion, and would
a strong and explicit declaration of the opinion of parliament..
vote with him, " That it appears to this
With this view, General Conway, on the 22d of February, moved,
House, that there
That an humble address be presented to his majesty, earnestly
has been great mismanagement in the conduct of his majesty's
imploring his majesty, that, taking into his royal consideration
naval affairs, in the year 178 I."
the many and great calamities which have attended the present
unfortunate war, and the heavy burthens thereby brought on his
The motion was opposed by Earl Nugent and Mr. Dundas. Sir
loyal and affectionate people, he will he pleased graciously to listen
William Dolben, who had supported Mr. Fox in the committee,
to the humble prayer and advice of his faithful Commons, that the
and was supposed to have weight with those members who were
war on the continent of North America may no longer be pursued
called country gentlemen, declared his resolution of voting against
for the impracticable purpose of reducing the inhabitants of that
him on the present occasion, on account of the_ intimation he had
country to obedience by force ; and expressing their hope, that
given of his design to move an address for the dismission of the
the earnest desire and diligent exertion to restore the public tran-
first lord of the Lmiralty. This he thought by far too hasty and
quillity, of which we have received his majesty's gracious assu-
precipitate a proceeding. Lord Howe also declared, that though
rances, may, by a happy reconciliation with the revolted colo-
he could not, in honour, avoid voting for the resolution before the
nies, be forwarded and made effectual, to which great end his
House, yet he should certainly be against the next step proposed.
majesty's faithful Commons will be ready most cheerfully to give
He asked, if gentlemen were provided with a proper successor,
their utmost assistance." The debate on this occasion lasted till
who would act with the present servants of the crown ? The
two o'clock in the morning. All the arguments used on former
plan of the ensuing campaign was also, he said, certainly arranged,
occasions were recurred to on both sides. The ministers continued
and he doubted whether at such i, a moment it would be safe to
to hold the same vague and undetermined language as before.
overturn the actual administration of the marine. -Mr. Fox was
In reply to Mr. Welbore Ellis, and Mr. Jenkinson,
ably supported by Mr. William Pitt, who laid his hand upon his
heart, and declared that he thought the whole of the proposi-
Mr. Fox, in an able speech, exposed the duplicity of
tion fully, clearly, and expressly proved. General Conway, Sir
ministers. He said he was happy to find, on a late occasion,
Horace Maim. Mr. Dunning, Admiral Keppel, Mr. Sheridan,
Mr. Thomas Pitt, and Mr. Taylor, spoke also in support of the
two hundred and nineteen honest, independent men. If the
motion, The House divided :
people would only consider the vast number of contractors and
placemen, that unworthily and unjustly had seats in that
Tellers.
•
Tellers.
-Mr. Win. Pitt 1
{Lord Mulgrave
House, they must be convinced, that a majority ofnineteen, for
YEAS t
S 2 I
Mr. Byng
Mr. J. Robinson z3
a minister was, in fact, a minority, as it proved most clearly
$o it passed in the negative.
and unequivocally that the voice of the people were against
He was severe on administration, and was glad to
find that he had discovered who the evil spirit was that
conducted all our mischiefs ; it was a person higher than the
noble lord in the blue ribbon : for the noble lord was only
his puppet, . and acted as he was told. The right honourable
1782.]
THE AMERICAN WAR.
JO
MOTIONS FOR PUTTING AN END TO
[Feb. 27.
-
gentleman (Mr. Ellis) had spoke out. He now understood
to restore the blessings of public tranquillity." The motion was se-
what was meant. He would take the word of a principal.
conded by Viscount Althorpe, and. opposed by Lord North, in a
long and able reply. He objected to it as unnecessary, after the
The other persons on the same bench with the right honour-
assurances that had been given by government ; as dangerous,
able gentleman, though ostensible ministers, were only se-
on account of the information it conveyed to our enemies; as
condary kind of beings compared to him. That infernal
impolitic, because it entirely took away from the executive
spirit that really ruled, and had so nearly ruined this country,
government the use of its discretion ; as tending to retard rather
which was much greater, though not so visible as ministers,
than to advance the attainment of peace, the great object in
had spoken through the right honourable gentleman's mouth.
view by both sides of the House. He therefore could only con-
He said, it was now evident, that the war was to be pursued
sider the motion as a party measure, and, in that light, he thought
it not less exceptionable. If, said. he, the House suspects the
in America in the same mad manner in which it had been
sincerity of the servants of' the crown, if they have any doubts of
conducted hitherto. He talked of the distinction of carrying
their ability or integrity, it is not by such a motion as the present
on a war with America, and in America, and said, every
that they ought'to express their sentiments ; they ought to address
body had hoped from what had fallen from the lord advocate,
the crown to remove those ministers in whom they could not place
and the noble lord in the blue ribbon before the holidays,
confidence, and to appoint others in whom they could confide.
that the war in future was only to be continued with America,
A minister, he said, ought no longer to continue a minister after
and not in America. But the right honourable gentleman's
he was suspected by that House. IIe should be like exsar's wife,
explanation of the sort of war of posts to be adopted, had
not only free from guilt, but even from, suspicion. If, indeed,
fully convinced him. He declared, if the 1.2arned lord
the House should shew that they had withdrawn their confidence
advocate did not vote for the present motion, what he had
from him, it would be his duty, without waiting for an address
for his removal, to wait upon his sovereign, and, delivering up
said before the holidays would bear the construction of having
the seals of his office, say to him, " Sir, I have long served you
arisen from personal animosity ; otherwise how was his speak-
with diligence, with zeal, and with fidelity, but success has not
ing against one minister, and supporting another for pur-
crowned' my endeavours ; your parliament have withdrawn from
suing the same measures in the same manner, to be accounted
me their confidence ; all my declarations to them are suspected ;
for?
therefore, Sir, let me resign to you those employments, which I
ought not to keep longer than I can be serviceable to your
The House divided:
majesty and your subjects." Lord. North was followed by the
Tellers.
Tellers.
attorney-general, Mr. Wallace, who observed, that there were
f
many more obstacles to be removed, in order to treat of peace
Mr. J. Robinson
194_
YEAS Mr. 13Y ng
Mr. Hussey
a 93.—Nozs
M
with the Americans, than the House seemed to be aware of. At
Mr. W. Adam j
So it passed in the negative.
that moment, several acts of parliament were in existence, which
would prove insuperable bars to such an attempt. He therefore
should recommend, that as the first necessary step, a truce ;
Februcoy 27.
during the continuance of which, the enmity, occasioned by the
violence of the contest, might subside ; and each party, being at
' The above "division having afforded the ministry the melancholy
leisure to consult their real interests, might accede to terms of
majority of a single vote,. was considered by Opposition as a com-
peace, which, having undergone a slow and temperate discussion,
plete victory on the subject of the American war ; and as a majority
might prove more honourable and advantageous, as well as more
of the absent members were supposed to coincide in opinion with
likely to secure a permanent union, than those resulting from
the former, it was resolved to bring the question before the House
sudden overtures and sudden acquiescence. He declared his
again the first opportunity. Accordingly, this day General Con-
intentions of bringing in a with the permission of the House,
way moved, " That it is the opinion of this House, that the
for these purposes ; and he should therefore move, " That the
farther prosecution of offensive war on the continent of North
debate be adjourned till this day fortnight." This attempt was
America, for the purpose of reducing the revolted colonies to
combated by Mr. Fox and several leaders of Opposition. Mr.
obedience by force, -.viil be the means of weakening the efforts
William Pitt was particularly severe on the motion of adjourn-
of this country against her European enemies, tends, under
ment ; and on the ground of Lord North's own declaration, urged.
the present circumstances, dangerously to increase the mutual
the House, by every consideration of duty or prudence, to with-
enmity, so fatal to the interests both of Great Britain and Ame-
draw confidence from the present administration. Was there a
rica, and, by preventing an happy reconciliation with that country,
Promise, he asked, which they had not falsified ? Was there a
to frustrate the earnest desire graciously expressed by his majesty
plan in which they agreed ? Did any two of them accord in
32
MOTIONS FOR PUTTING AN END TO [March 4.
1782,3
THE AMERICAN WAIL.
33
any specific doctrine ? No ! there was an incessant variation
not oppose it, there was no occasion for him to enter into any
a shuffling and tricking pervaded their whole conduct, and in
detail of argaument in defence of the proposition ; some things,
them parliament could place no trust. The debate lasted again
d dropt from :le noble lord, on which lie must
had
till two in the morning, when, though the proposition of the
animadvert. But he must first beg leave to say, that he was
attorney-general was supposed to have brought over a few irreso-
one of those who were completely and totally dissatisfied with
lute votes to the side of the minister, there appeared for the
the answer of the crown to the address of that House. When
adjournment only 215 ; against it, 234, exclusive of the two tellers
on each side. The number of those who were present at the
he spoke in this manner, lie would undoubtedly be understood
beginning of the debate, but had paired off in the course of the
to mean, that he was dissatisfied with the answer which his
evening, were said to have amounted to 14. The original ques-
majesty's ministers had advised his majesty to give. It was
tion, and an address to the king, formed upon the resolution,
the answer of the ministers, and among others, of that minis-
were then carried without a division, and the address was ordered
ter who . had, on that day, been heard to declare, that he
to be presented by the whole House.
disapproved of the resolution of the House on which the ad-
dress was founded; they had put an answer into the mouth of
Match 4.
. his majesty which he could not approve of; because it was not
an answer sufficiently clear and specific. For what did it say?
The Speaker reported to the House, that the House had at-
tended his majesty with their address, to which he had been
That his majesty would be graciously pleased to put an end
pleased to return the following answer :
to the offensive war carried on in America, for the purpose of
Gentlemen of the House of Commons : There are no objects
reducing the Americans to obedience by force ? No. But
nearer to my heart than the ease, happiness, and prosperity of my
that his majesty would take such measures as shall appear to
people. You may be assured, that in pursuance of your advice,
him (that is, as shall appear to his ministers) conducive to
I shall take such measures as shall appear to me to be most con-
the restoration of harmony. Could this be satisfactory? Par-
ducive to the restoration of harmony between Great Britain and
liament had pointed out the specific means by which to ac-
the revolted colonies, so essential to the prosperity of both ; and
complish the object; namely, by putting an immediate stop to
that my efforts shall be directed in the most effectual manner
offensive war; but his majesty's ministers, instead of declaring
against our European enemies, until such a peace can he obtained
as shall consist with the interests and permanent welfare of my
in their answer that they would guide themselves by this
kingdoms."
advice, make his majesty declare that they will take such steps
The thanks of the House being unanimously voted to the ping
as appear to them conducive to the object. He was not in
for his gracious answer, General Conway rose again, and moved,
the House when the motion for an address of thanks was
" That, after the solemn declaration of the opinion of this House
agreed to, as he understood, unanimously; if he had, notwith-
in their humble address presented to his majesty on Friday last,
standing what he had just said, he should have voted for it,
and his majesty's assurance of his gracious intention, in pursuance
for he was careful to distinguish between the obligation that
of their advice, to take such measures as shall appear to his ma-
was due to his majesty personally for the grace of his answer
jesty to be most conducive to the restoration of harmony between
(and he sincerely believed that his majesty was, in his royal
Great Britain and the revolted colonies, so essential to the pros-
perity of both, this House will consider as enemies to his majesty
mind, :most graciously disposed to restore the blessings of peace
and this country, all those who shall endeavour to frustrate his
to his unhappy people), and those ministers who wished to
majesty's paternal care for the ease and happiness of his people, by
make the crown follow a plan of conduct directly opposite to
advising, or by any means attempting, the farther prosecution of
the advice of his faithful commons. This answer of the mi-
offensive war on the continent of North America, for the purpose
nistry, coupled with their language in that House, Was per-
of reducing the revolted colonies to obedience by force." Lord
' fectly intelligible; for here they declared, and particularly
Aithorpe seconded the motion. Lord North declared, that in pur-
the minister for the American department, that the best way
suance of the address, and of the king's answer, he should use
to conclude a peace with America was to make them feel the
every effort to fulfil their orders, relying on their further instruc-
ca
tion, if he appeared to misapprehend their intentions. He consi-
lamities of war. This expression the new secretary of
State,
dered the motion unnecessary, as it only reinforced declarations
(Mr. Ellis) had made use of but a few days before.
already sufficiently strong.
His majesty, he sincerely believed, wished to conclude peace
with America, as his faithful Commons had advised him; but
his mi
Mr. Fox rose to speak but a few words on the motion ; for
nisters undoubtedly meant no such thing, for their Ian,-
as the noble lord in the blue ribbon had said that he should.
guage was different.
3 4
MOTION FOR AN ENQUIRY MO
[March 4
1782.]
THE AMERICAN WAR.
3y
But the noble lord had said, that he never would, nor
be must address him in language to the following effect :—
should any man presume to act in contradiction to the voice
64 I am come, Sire, to advise you to a measure, which is ex-
of the majority of that House; nor dare to call it in question ;
pressly contrary to my own opinion, and to all I ever told
nor dare to abuse it, in any shape. For his own part, he
you; but, however, it is the opinion of a majority of the
must claim to himself the right of declaring his opinion freely
House of Commons." The noble lord was to gather every
and fully of the conduct of parliament, in discharge of his.
thing from the opinion of that House, since he seemed re-
own conscience, and of his duty. When majorities acted.
solved to carry on measures of which lie disapproved, if this
wrong in his opinion, he would, both within that House and
country should be so reduced, so poor in spirit, or so indif-
out of it, declare his disapprobation of their conduct: but
ferent as to suffer a minister to have the conduct of affairs in
the noble lord pronounced it, as the indispensable duty of a
a moment so dangerous as the present, when he dared not to
minister to hold the decision of the majorities of that House
execute his own plans.
in the strictest reverence. Had he always done so ? Did
The free, uncorrupt voice of the majority of that House
he not remember the vote of a majority of that House,
was, indeed, respectable. He did respect it; and respecting
declaring that the influence of the crown ought to be di-
it, he must condemn and despise the majorities of another
minished? What, then, was his duty upon that occa-
description, which the minister had procured by means of
sion ? Surely, to second the endeavours of that majority
corruption. When he saw a majority, composed of contrac-
to reduce the influence. Did he so ? No. He there coun-
tors, whom a majority of that House had previously declared
teracted, opposed, and at last defeated and destroyed the
to be ineligible to sit there, he could not respect that ma-
desire of that House ; nay, he advised the crown, in a
jority. The House having, by solemn resolutions, declared
shameful manner, to dissolve the parliament before its regular
contractors, the lords of trade, and certain other officers of
period, lest they should, in another session, carry into ex-
the state, incapable of sitting in that House, he could not:
ecution the resolutions of a former. Did he not, by his
afterwards respect a majority made up of those men alone. He
conduct, bring upon that House the disgrace and ignominy
thanked God that the House of Commons had come to the
of having declared what was their duty, and afterwards failed
resolutions of Friday last. -Whatever were their present
to perform it ?
effects, they must, in the end, be decisive ; for they had, by
. If the noble lord sought for credit in his declarations of
those resolutions, broken, destroyed and annihilated the
respect for the decision of majorities, let him now come to
principle and basis of the present system ; they had over-
the resolution of the 6th of April, 1 7 80, and reduce the
come corruption ; and the system, thus deprived of its
influence of the crown, and then he would be considered as
foundation, must crumble into pieces. It was impossible
.a fair man ; but the noble lord would otherways incur the
to believe that the ministry could be so daring and profligate
censure of saying things in argument which he by no means
as to go on after what had happened on Wednesday last;
meant to abide by. His situation was truly embarrassing.
they.could not have the presumption, surely, after the tidings
He had said in debate the other evening, and he had said it
that had come that day ; they could not be impudent enough
by way of menace, that if the voice of the House should be
to go on. That day they had heard that the important island.
against him, that was undoubtedly by being against the prin-
of Minorca was lost; that the garrison, consisting of tsoo
ciple and system of his administration, he would no longer
men, had surrendered prisoners of war ; and that there were
continue in place. The House had been against him ; the
circumstances in the loss of this island, -which made. it . par-
majority of the House was against him; and still the noble
ticularly criminal in ministers; for, besides the loss of the
lord kept his place. Such was his respect for majorities, and
garrison, he understood that there were several regiments now
such the credit that ought to be given to his declarations in
on their way to relieve the place. In the last war, the loss
that House ! But it was no way strange, that he should
of this important fortress and island drove a much greater
now affect to pay regard to the decision of majorities; he
ministry than .the present from their seats. The nation
stood in a situation which, he would be bound to say; had
would not then suffer loss, disgrace, and calamity, without
not been precedented since the revolution ; 'he remained in
calling their rulers to a severe account. Would they now
place when the House had condemned the system. Being
suffer loss after loss, disaster after disaster ? Were they so
ha
-then to carry on measures contrary to his own opinion, what
bituated to defeat? Had ministry made them so familiar
must be done? When he went into his sovereign's presence,
with sorrow that they could now bear loss without a complaint?
33 2.
MOTION FOR PEACE WITH AMERICA.
36
310TION FOR AN ENQUIRY, &C.
[March 4.,
37
FIe hoped not. He had heard that day another report; he
common danger, to a plan of general and united „action.
sincerely hoped it was not true ; he had no other reason for
though the administration might go on for a day, a week, a
believing it, but the probability, that the most important
month, or a year, it was nothing to a man who viewed things
island remaining to us in the West Indies, except Jamaica,.
on a great scale ; the foundation was taken from it on Wed.
he meant St. Kites, was taken. He desired ministers to in-
nesday last; it must fall down, and then an effectual remedy
form the House, if it was true that this calamity also had come
would be found to prevent its ever rising again.
upon us ; and where they meant to stop ; when they would
confess that they had done enough. From his soul, he be-
Ministers did not venture to divide the House ; the motion,
lieved, that such was their accursed obstinacy, that even
therefore, after a feeble opposition, was agreed to.
when they had lost nine-tenths of the king's dominions,
they would not be satisfied till they had mangled and destroyed
the last miserable tenth also — pride and obstinacy were so
predominant in their nature !
He could not help observing with pleasure, the- triumph of
Ti-ix ATTOTtNEY-GENERAL'. BILL Pon ENABLING THE KI.Ner
men in every, quarter, on the resolutions of the House on Wed-
TO CONCLUDE A PEACE OR TRUCE wlTn AMERICA.
nesday last. The exultation, the triumph, the hope, painted
and expressed in every countenance, was a test of the desire
Mardi 5.
which they had for the object recommended in that House, and
the consequences that it had produced on the funds, and on.
The House having resolved itself into a committee, the Attorney-
the credit of the nation, were also inconceivable. The peo-
General, Mr. Wallace, moved, " That leave be given to bring in
ple saw or heard of our triumphs without emotion. They,
a bill to enable his majesty to conclude a peace, or truce, with the
heard of the victories obtained by his majesty's ministers with-
revolted colonies in North America."
out gladness. The stocks remained the same, the faces of men
wore the same gloom ; but on the instant that a victory was
Mr. Fox assured the committee that nothing but the per-
gained over his majesty's ministers, whom they considered as
sonal respect he bore the learned gentleman had prevented him
the greatest enemies of their country, their j oy was immo-
from treating the proposition just as it deserved to be treated ;
derate, the funds were immediately advanced, and the credit
and that was to burst out a laughing when he had heard it,
of the nation raised, because there was a prospect of the
and then walk out of the House ; for nothing could be so ridi-
ministry going out of place. All yet would be well in their
culous and farcical as to hear such a proposition from that side
conception, if this should be brought about. 'When the noble
of the House, and from a member who, on Wednesday last,
lord, two years ago, brought in a bill for conciliatory propo-
had combated, as far as he was able, a resolution, the obvious
sitions with America, the funds were not affected ; they hoped
tendency of which was that very peace with which the learn-
for no benefit from any thing that he should undertake; but
ed gentleman seemed at present enamoured. The supporters
when the parliament declared it, they instantly proclaimed
of administration entertained at present a wish for peace ; but
" now that the minister is beaten the country may be saved."
they had been beaten into it ; and nothing but flagellation
He professed that, though he could not thank God for the
and correction could drive them to think of peace : pity it
many calamities which had overtaken this unhappy land, in
was that so much correction should be necessary l—The
consequence of the fatal system by which the king and people
learned gentleman had said, and said truly, that opening our
had been deluded, he still considered it as beneficial that the
ports to the Americans, and facilitating mutual intercourse
triumph of Wednesday last had not come sooner. It had,
with them, was the most effectual way to incline them to re-
coming as it did, completely and effectually destroyed
turn to that preference which they used to give to our market
corruption; the reign of it was at an end. If the conquest
over any other. Pity it was, that the learned gentleman and
had come sooner, before we had been so instigated against.
his friends had not discovered this four years sooner; then
the baneful consequences of a system of corruption, perhaps
We should not have to lament the loss of America and our
there might have been contrived some paltry and insionifi-
West India islands ; we should not have to regret the loss of
b
M
cant coalitions, Which would have made the system more pa-
inorca, or be reduced to this melancholy situation, that
latable. Now they were roused, and leagued by a 'sense of
of all our foreign
those
-0 in India excepted, we
, possessions, ioae
A 3
1782.]
33
MOTION FOR PEACE WITH AMERICA. [March s.
MOTION OF CENSURE ON MINISTERS.
39
could scarcely say that we had now remaining more than
which they held so dear, provided he could save his country :
Jamaica and Gibraltar ; and God only knew how long these
for this end he was willing to serve them in the business of
might remain in our hands I When he rose, it was not with
peace, in any capacity, even as an under commis, or messen-
an intention either to support or oppose the motion of the
ger. But in so doing, be desired it might be understood that
learned gentleman, from which however he. was free to say,
lie did not mean to have any connection with them : from the
that he expected very little good ; but before he should con-
moment when he should make any terms with one of' them, he
sent to furnish ministers with the means of making peace, he
would rest satisfied to be called the most infamous of man-
would ask how far it was probable that they were inclined to
kind : he could not for an instant think of a coalition with
make peace? Gentlemen knew well that Spain had offered
men, who in every public and private transaction, as ministers,
her mediation, before she declared war. Would ministers
had shewn themselves void of every principle of honour and
tell upon what grounds it was rejected ? In the year 178i,
honesty : in the hands of such men he would not trust his
one of the most powerful princes of Europe had offered a
honour, even for a minute.
mediation. Upon what principle was it rejected ? Those who
did not listen to mediations, could scarcely be ailed friends
Lord North explained the manner in which mediations had been
to peace : but if measures destructive of peace had been pur-
offered, and answered Mr. Fox's insinuations against his honour.
sued,' would any one say that the present ministers were in-
He would not, he added, relinquish his office merely because so.
clined to it, or proper agents to negociate it Was it true
much eagerness was shown to drive him out ; but as he had hither-
to retained it to prevent confusion, and the introduction of uncon-
that our ministers had flatly refused to suffer any agents from
stitutional principles into government, he would not. resign till*
America to meet their plenipotentiaries, under the mediation
;commanded by the king, or till the House should, in the clearest
of the prince alluded to ? If it was true, then it was to be con-
manner, indicate the propriety of his withdrawing.
chided, that as they had driven the Americans to treat through
France, they would consequently have taken the most eactual
Mr. Fox assured the noble lord, when he said he was dis-
means to rivet the alliance between them ; and of course no-
honourable in private transactions, he meant in such as were
thing could be more injurious to the interests of this country.
of a half public, half private nature; and not at all in his
The learned gentleman therefore, in looking for the impedi
private character, or in such part of his public character as
ments and bars to peace, which he was desirous to remove,
related to money matters, in which he was ready to admit
ought to look to his right and to his left, and in the persons
that he stood clear from every imputation. He wished how--
of his friends, the ministers, he would find those impediments.
ever, in every other respect, it should be believed that he
Before he sat down, he had a proposal to make to ministers;
had spoken no harsher than he meant. He ridiculed the
he would inform diem for certain, that there were persons
idea of the noble lord's remaining in office to prevent confu-
now in Europe, who were fully empowered to treat for a
sion ; and was surprised at the difference which he found in
peace between Great Britain and America; and though he
the noble lord's language on this day and Wednesday last,
believed they would not treat with the present ministers, still
relative to resignation.
he would put them in a way of making peace; nay more, if
they did not like to interfere in it themselves, he would un-
The motion was agreed to without a division.
dertake to negociate for them himself. He saw a learned
gentleman smile at his proposal ; lie was not surprised at it;
nor could he have brought himself to make it, if the good of
his country did not urge him to it ; and he might propose it,
without being guilty of more inconsistency than the noble
lord, who condemned the resolution of Wednesday last, for
LORD JOHN CAVENDISH'S MOTION OF CENSURE ON
peace with America, though at present he was willing to act
MINISTERS.
every day contrary to his inclination ; and to be constantly
advising the sovereign to pursue those measures, which he so
March 8.
much condemned. Our affairs were so circumstanced that
THE following resolutions were moved by Lord John Caven.
ministers must lose their places, or the country must be un-
dish
" That it appears to this House, that since the year
done : he would therefore let them enjoy those emoluments,
775,
1
u pwards of one hundred millions of money have been ex-,
II
D 4
•
40
MOTION OF CENSURE ON MINISTERS. [March 8.
Z]
MOTION OF CENSURE ON MINISTERS.
41
pended on the army and navy in a fruitless war 2 . That during
shortening the duration of parliament, it had always been
the above period, we have lost the thirteen colonies of America,
Lis opinion, that it ought to be shortened; it was, however,
which anciently belonged to the crown of Great Britain, (except
question on which honest men might differ, for honest and
a.
the posts of New York, Charles-Town, and Savannah,) the newly
free men would differ ; and he was clearly of opinion, that
acquired colony of Florida, many of cur valuable West India and
the shortening the duration of parliament would do nothing,
other islands, and those that remain are in the most imminent
danger : — 3. That Great Britain is at present engaged in an ex-
without reducing at the same time the influence of the crown;
pensive war with America, France, Spain, and Holland, without a
bat he thought the shortening the duration of parliament
single ally:—q.. That the chief cause of all these misfortunes has
would be one great means of reducing that influence. He
been the want of foresight and ability in his majesty's ministers."
could not help expressing his astonishment at the honourable
The resolutions were seconded by Mr. Powys, and supported by
gentleman's declaring, that septennial parliaments were chosen
Mr. Martin, Mr. Thomas Townshend, Mr. Burke, Sir Horace
as the wisest and most consonant to the general well-being of
Mann, Lord Maitland, Mr. Fox, Sir Fletcher Norton, Mr. Thomas
the state, by those respectable and great men, the NNThigs,
Pitt, Mr. Sheridan, Mr. Byng, and Mr. William Pitt. The order
who settled the constitution, when the Revolution took place.
of the day was moved by the secretary at war, and supported by
He reminded the House that the bill for septennial parlia-
Mr. Secretary Ellis, Earl Nugent, Mr. William Adam, Mr. Dun,
ments was a bill of modern date, and though it might not be
das, Mr. Rigby, and Lord North.
practicable to alter that mode inunediately, he still was of
Mr. Fox rose, and answered the several matters thrown
opinion that annual or triennial parliaments would be an im-
out by Mr. Adam. He had declared, and he repeated the
provement, calculated to preserve the privileges of the people
assertion, that he would be an infamous man, who should, on
from the encroachments of the prerogative of the crown.
coming into place, abandon the principles and professions
Having said this, lie begged leave to explain a matter
which he had made when out of place. He was happy to say
which he had urged on a former evening, and which he
that every principle lie had ever held had been adopted by a
understood had been misapprehended. It had been thought
majority of that House, the decisinn of which had given sanc-
that he gave out that there would be formed an administra-
tion to his opinions. The twogreat leading principles of his
tion of proscription. This he positively denied; on the con-
mind, in which lie differed from the King's ministers, were,
trary, it was the desire of those with whom he had the honour
the prosecution of the American war, and the influence of
to act, to form an administration on the broadest basis; an
the crown; in both these matters he had been supported by
administration which should take in all that was great and
the opinion of parliament. The resolutions of the 27th of
dignified in the empire; to collect all the ability, the talents,
February had condemned the American war, and those of the
the consideration, and the weight of the nation ; to draw
6th of April, 178o, had declared that the influence of the
within its arms every man of influence, every man of popula-
crown ought to be
- The general principle of re-
rity, every man of knowledge, every man of experience, with.
-
ducing that influence he warmly adopted. The corruption of
out regarding his particular opinion on abstract points, and
that House was intolerable, and to all the resolutions which
to employ all this body of strength to one great end, the de-
the House had come to at that time, for excluding contractors,
liverance of the empire. He had said only, that he could
for excluding the members of the board of trade, of the
form no connection with the present cabinet; that lie should
p
board of green cloth, &c. he, from his heart, subscribed.
be infamous if he did. He thought, however, that they had
All these members the House had declared to be incapable
no weight nor consideration in the country, as private men.
of sitting and voting in that House. By taking up the
Even among them, there was one, however, for whom he en-
list of the division on the late memorable occasion, instead
tertained great respect. He meant the lord chancellor : a
of leaving the minister in a minority of nineteen, he would
1
man who had always taken care to convince the world, that
prove, that, by taking away these contractors and placemen,
he had no share in their measures. The sense of the nation
who were declared by the House to be incapable of voting,
called for a change of men, as the only probable means of pro-
the majority against the minister was upwards of a hundred.
ducing a change of measures, and a peace with America, who
_
w
To all the details prepared for the reduction of influence, he
ould. not treat with her resentful and avowed foes, the mem-
did not subscribe; but in this he was clear and decided, that
l?ers of the present administration ? What was to be expected
that House ought to be made what it was originally intended
ll•otn an American secretary and a minister, who severally
111a
to be—the representative of the nation. With respect to
intained their former sentiments respecting America, and
42
MOTION OF CENSURE ON MINISTERS. [March 8.
1782.]
SIR JOHN ROUS'S MOTION.
43
who considered the vote of Wednesday sthinight as a fetter
on their. inclinations. The times regttired it, and he hoped
SIR JOHN R ous's MOTION FOR WITHDRAWING THE CONP1-•
to God, the country would soon have an administration settled
PENCE OP PARLIAMENT FROM THE KING'S MINISTERS.
on a broad bottom, - in which they could place confidence, and
from. whose measures they might rationally hope for success.
It was by.driving the present weak, wicked, and incapable
March r
advisers of the crown from the person of his majesty, that the
'TUE interval between the 8th and the 15th of March was
country could alone expect to recover from its present dis-
generally supposed to have been employed in various unsuc-
grace and misfortune. The propositions moved by his noble
cessful attempts to divide the party in Opposition. On this day,
friend that day, he was convinced in his own mind, would
Sir John Rous moved, " that this House, (taking into considera-
tend to produce that great and desirable object ; and, there-
tion the great sums voted, and debts incurred, for the service of
fore, wishing as he did for the removal of the noble lord in
the army, navy, and ordnance, in this unfortunate war, to the
the blue ribbon, and such of his colleagues as had been the
amount of upwards of one hundred millions ; and finding that the
nation has, notwithstanding these extraordinary exertions, lost
planners and conductors of the accursed American war, as the
thirteen ancient colonies belonging to the crown of Great Britain,
best blessing he could wish for his country, he should vote
the newly-acquired province of West Florida, and the islands of
against the motion for the order of the day.
Dominica, St. Vincent, Grenada, Tobago, and Minorca, besides
In explanation of his description of the broad-bottomed.
several valuable commercial fleets, of the utmost importance to the
administration, which his friends desired to form, he said, that
wealth of this country ; and that we are still involved in war with
they would proscribe no men, of any principles, in the pre-
three powerful nations in Europe, without one single ally,) can
sent dreadful moment, but the five or six, men -who were now,
have no further confidence in the ministers who have the direction
and had been, the confidential advisers of his majesty in all
of public affairs." The motion was principally supported by Lord
the measures that had brought about the present calamities.
George Cavendish, Mr. Harrison, Mr. Marsham, Mr. William
Pitt, Mr. Fox, and Lord John Cavendish; and opposed by Sir
To demonstrate his meaning by an example, they did not
William Dolben, Mr. William Adam, and Mr. Dundas. Lord
even wish to proscribe the learned lord advocate, although
North spoke with considerable emotion and embarrassment, to
they abhorred his notions of the constitution. He then spoke
which the peculiarity of his situation must doubtless have much
of his idea of consulting the voice of the people without doors.
contributed. In a most able speech he defended his own character
It was clearly his opinion, that the people ought to declare
and administration. He did not object to the present motion so much
their opinion of men and things; and that to do this, they bad
as to that of the preceding week ; it was divested of anger, its
a right to meet and consult together, provided they did it in a
terms•moderate, and its intent clear and defined. He sincerely
peaceable, orderly manner. He would add to this, that when
wished for peace, and for such an administration as could act with
unanimity and effect for the national good. He would be no ob-
that -House should become so lost to all sense of duty, and so
stacle to a coalition of parties, for the formation and adjustment
far gone in corruption as to abandon the rights of the people
of a new cabinet in which he should have no place. This idea
altogether, and to become the passive instruments of the crown,
was strenuously enforced by Mr. Dundas, and warmly reprobated
then it. might be justifiable for the people to revert to the ori-
by Mr. William Pitt, who defined a coalition to be a collection and.
ginalprinciples of the constitution, and to resume the direc-
combination of all the abilities, integrity, and judgment of several
tion of their own affairs, so as to preserve the popular weight
parties, and turning the united exertion to the service and salva-
in the scale of government. The present administration was
tion of the country. The administration had been one of influence
the first since the revolution that had dared to deny this right.
and intrigue ; he thanked God it was likely to terminate, but
But, said he, make parliament the representative of the people,
trusted the House would not contaminate their own purpose by
suffering the present ministers to manage the appointment of their
and their voice will be collected within these walls.
successors.
neither It was the prerogative of tile crown to appoint minis-
did it become the House to settle who were to hold
The debate lasted till past two o'clock in the morning, when the
places, or adjust and investigate the measures to be pursued.
House divided on the order of the day :
Tellers.
Tellers.
Mr. Pox began with saying, that lie could not help admir-
{Mr. W. Adam
Mr. William Pitt 1
ing
YEAS
226.--.00ES
216.
the conduct of the worthy baronet (Sir William Dolben),
Mr. J. Robinson I"
Mr. Byng
Majority in favour of ministers
who had of late been exceedingly happy in passing panegyrics
all the noble lord, but unfortunately for him they all went di-
44
SIR JOHN ROUS'S MOTION.
[March r5,.
1732.i
SIR JOHN ROI:S'S MOTION.
4g
rectly contrary to what he intended; for the noble lord's fort
lord had not made use of that subterfuge, which the secre-
was not for war, and, from his declaring against the Ameri-
tary at war did on Friday last, by moving a previous ques-
cans, he had shewn that he was not a man fit for peace.
tion upon it; but the noble lord had explained why that
Certainly the honourable baronet ought to vote for the ques-
subterfuge was made use of'; it was because the former mo-
tion, that he might place his noble friend in a situation where
tions contained three truisms, which even the noble lord
he could shine most ; seeing that for the offices he had held,
allowed: and declared, that after having voted for the three,
he was the most unfortunate man alive. The noble lord had
the House must inevitably vote the fourth. Whether they
declared that he wished for peace, that he did not want to stay
would or .not, he allowed the noble lord was right, and cer-
in office, yet he had not sense enough, for near twenty years,
tainly the House was bound to vote the fourth; but here the
to keep himself above one year out of office ; nor had , he, al-
fourth proposition was altered from " want of foresight and
though a lover of peace, for eight years out of twelve, been
ability," to want of confidence: surely now no person could
able to keep from war. An honourable gentleman (Mr.
be against the motion, let him be professional or not; and
Adam) had asserted, that the only reason why this country
however the noble lord's friends might be against letting him
could make no alliances was, the fault of Opposition; they and
quit his post, or however averse he might be himself to it,
their fathers,. had carried the nation in the last war to such a
he must, if not that night, very shortly quit it; if not by a.
high pitch of glory, that they had rendered her the envy of
voluntary resignation, by one less honourable; and this was
all the world; and that the neighbouring states of Europe
not the work of mere faction, for he had seen the most re-
had become so jealous of her, that none of them would enter
spectable country gentlemen, both Whig and Tory, unite in
into an alliance with her. If the fact were so, Mr. Fox said,
one common cause for the public good. His honourable
it was assigning an odd reason for our having no allies. He
friend who moved the question, and his other honourable
should have imagined that a nation, being in possession of
friend who seconded it, were gentlemen that calumny could
great and superior power, was the best inducement to other
not reach; they were not men supposed either to want, or
states to seek an alliance with her. But if it was our greatness
that would accept of places; they acted from quite different
that prevented our ability to form alliances at the conclusion
principles. At present there was no government; it was a
of the last war, and that disability arose from the glorious
kind of interre num, and for the truth of that he applied to
g
successes of their fathers, and those great sea and land officers,
the noble lord. The offices of , government had been for
then sitting on his side the House, he would do the honour-
some weeks past in most shameful disorder. Surely, then,
able gentleman and his party the justice to say, they had
it was high tine for .some ministry to be established, for a
completely undone all that work, and reduced the nation to a
bad government was better than none; and whilst we were
state in which other courts need no longer be jealous of her
in the dreadful situation mentioned, he desired gentlemen
superior power, and therefore need not make that a plea for
would recollect the bill that was depending in that House,
refusing to enter into an alliance with Great Britain.—Mr.
(the navy mutiny bill,) which contained such dangerous
Fox entered very much at large into what Lord North had
clauses, that he was fearful to speak out.- but the House
said, with regard to the conduct of the war, and the delusions
perfectly understood him, and he sincerely wished the bill
that had been held out repeatedly by ministers to parliament.
might not be attended with the evil he foresaw it would.
He declared, he till that day thought the noble lord had al-
ways acted a generous part with his colleagues, by standing up.
The House divided:
and desiring to share with them in their guilt, if guilt there
Tellers.
5
Tellers.
was. That day, however, the noble lord, talking of the nu-
Mors
227.-1N
{Mr. W. Alain
merous friends in America, of which they had heard so much,
Mr. J. Robinson S 236.
Majori
r ty
bitby in fa o
had said, " it fell not within his department to receive informa-
ministers 9. "When the minority were
y,
1::11B11111111
.3;:a Fox said, that upon consulting with the gen-
:givtilt
tion of their numerous friends in America; that declaration
ItleEtArinftonieloau Faulnv:l
e
was
right, that a motion, to the same
had been made by another minister." Mr. Fox reasoned upon
effect, should
proposed en the Wednesday following.
this, and asserted, that the noble lord had himself deluded
and deceived parliament in a variety of instances. The
noble lord had declared, that the present motion was by far
fairer than the former one: he believed him, and the noble
CHANGE Or MINISTRY.
[March
CHANGE OF MINISTRY.
46
20,
1782.]
47
the common reasons which ordinarily occasioned the resig-
nation of ministers, but because it was the sense of parlia-
CHANGE OF MINISTRY.
went, that they should retire, because that House had ex-
pres
, slv called upon the crown for their dismission, and be-
March 2o.
cause the good Of the country made it absolutely necessary.
These were the reasons which impelled him to wish the motion
THE House being again uncommonly crowded, the Earl of
to be put and carried. On the other hand, they had the less
Surrey got up to make the promised motion ; but Lord North
weight with him, because it was, he trusted, already suffi-
rising at the same time, for the purpose of communicating to the
House some information, which, he said, might make any farther
known, that the sense of parliament was against them;
proceeding in the intended business unnecessary, and would re-
and
t a:lthough
the motions of Friday and the Friday
quire an adjournment, great disorder and . confusion ensued, the
before had not actually been carried, yet he considered that
members in opposition calling out violently for " Lord Surrey,"
motions debated in such full houses, and where the minister
and " No adjournment." As soon as the House was reduced to
had so small a majority as nine or ten, were in effect carried,
order, Mr. Fox moved, " that the Earl of Surrey be now heard ;"
and in all reasonable construction, as much carried, as if there
when Lord North, having now obtained a right to speak to the
had not been such a majority against them. The great end,
question, observed, that had he been suffered to proceed before,
therefore, of carrying the motion of his noble friend, was
he believed much unnecessary heat and disorder would have been
prevented. He meant no disrespect to the noble earl ; but as
already, in his mind, and he believed, in the consideration
notice had been given that the object of the intended motion was
of the whole country, effectually answered. For which rea-
the removal of his majesty's ministers, he meant to have acquainted
son, he begged, that let who would be the persons called on
the House, that such a motion was become unnecessary. He could
by, their sovereign to form the new administration, they
assure the House, with authority, that the present administration
might ever hold it in their minds, that his majesty's late
was no more, and that his majesty had come to a full determination
ministers were dismissed, because parliament disapproved of
of changing his ministers ; and it was for the purpose of giving
the system of their government, and that it was evident from
the necessary time for , new arrangements that he meant to have
parliament having gone so far to effect a removal of ministers,
moved for an adjournment. The noble lord then took his leave
that it would be expected their successors should act upon
of the House as minister, by thanking them for the honourable
support they had given him during so long a course of years, and
different principles, and in a mariner totally opposite. He
in so many trying situations. He expressed his grateful sense of
declared, it had given him great pleasure, the preceding
their great partiality towards him on all, and their forbearance on
evening, to hear an honourable member say in a thin House,
many occasions. A successor of greater abilities, of better judg-
that he hoped, if his majesty's ministers were removed,
ment, arid more qualified for his situation, he said, was easy to
those who should be appointed in their room would no
be found ; a successor more zealously attached to the interests of
longer govern , by influence and corruption, and that if per-
his country, more anxious to promote them, more loyal to his
sons who had been in opposition came in, they would re-
sovereign, and more desirous of preserving the constitution whole
ligiously adhere to their opposition principles, and not let.
and entire, he might be allowed to say, could not so easily be
it be a mere change of hands, without a chancre of measures.
found. He concluded his speech, after declaring that he did not
mean to shrink from trial, that he should always be prepared to
He enlarged a good deal on this idea, and in a warm man-
meet it, that he even demanded it from his adversaries, with
ner declared, that he should ever hold those. rrleu infamous,
moving the question of adjournment.
be they who they might, who altered their principles on
obtaining power; and that as the House had solemnly de-
t
Mr. Fox said, that it did not seem to be a matter of great
ermined by their late conduct, that they rejected and
a
importance, whether the motion of his noble friend, the -Earl
bhorred a government of influence, the new ministers must
of Surrey, was put, or whether they trusted to the solely
always remember that fact, and remember also, that they
'declaration made by the noble lord. He should have wished,
owed their situations to that House. Mr. Fox concluded
perhaps, that the motion might be put and carried, because
wi th advising his noble friend, not to make his intended
it would then manifestly appear to the nation at large, that
motion that day, but to reserve it for 'Monday, in case the
the ministers of the crown did not retire either from the ca-
noble lord's declaration should fall short of its expected com-
price of this or that minister, or from their wishing to go out,.
pletion. He also agreed to withdraw his own motion.
or from their being tired of their situations, or from any of
43
CHANGE OF MINISTRY.
[March 2d.
/782.3
AFFAIRS OF IRELAND,
ale
The House, on the motion of Lord North, then adjourned to
the 23d.*
AFFAIRS OF IRELAND.-
During the adjournment, the new administration was formed under
April
the auspices of the Marquis of Rockingham. The new cabinet was thus
8.
composed :
First Lord of the Treasury— Marquis of Rockingham.
ON' first day of the meeting of parliament, after the Easter
recess, as soon as the re-elected members were sworn in, the
Principal Secretaries of State. (The third Secretaryship abolished) —
affairs of Ireland were unexpectedly brought before the House.
Earl of Shelburne, Hon. Charles James Fox.
Colonel Luttrell introduced the business, by stating the prevailing
Chancellor of the Exchequer—Lord John Cavendish.
First Lord of the Admiralty — Admiral Keppel (created a Viscount).
discontents in that country, and the desire of ministers to remove
Lord Privy Seal — Duke of Grafton.
them, and requiring from Mr. Eden, who had filled the situation of
President of the Council — Lord Camden.
secretary to the Earl of Carlisle, the late lord lieutenant, an ex-
Master-General of the Ordnance —Duke of Richmond.
planation of the affairs of that kingdom. Mr. Eden readily entered
To continue Chancellor—Lord Thurlow.
on the task, describing the conduct of government and opposition
Commander in Chief of the Forces — General Conway.
for the two last years, and descanting on the valour, loyalty, and
Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, and created Baron Ashharton
popularity of the volunteers, whose desires and sentiments were
John Dunning, Esq.
the desires and sentiments ofall Ireland. The declaration of rights,
Besides the above, which composed the Cabinet, the following arrange-
so unanimously and ardently cherished, could no longer be opposed
ments took place :
with success : the attempt would be as vain as to make the river
Thames flow up Highgate-hill. He did- not believe the Irish would
Lord Chamberlain — Duke of Manchester.
abuse the advantages they might obtain, and they would be re-
Vice-Chamberlain — Viscount Chewton.
strained from adopting measures injurious to England, since the
Groom of the Stole — Viscount Weymouth.
Master of the Buck Hounds — Earl of Jersey.
king, with the advice of a responsible cabinet, must sanction all
1
Lord Steward of the Household —Earl of Carlisle.
their acts. Besides the declaration of rights, the volunteers, or,
Lord of the Bedchamber —Lord Rivers.
in another word, Ireland, had called fora habeas corpus, and
Treasurer of the Household —Earl of Effingham.
obtained it ; a bill for making commissions of judges quanuliu Lene
Comptroller of ditto —Earl of Ludlow.
se gesserint, demanded by them, was in its progress through parlia-
Captain of the Band of Gentlemen Pensioners — Lord de Ferrars.
ment ; the required alteration of the mutiny act might easily he
Lords of the Treasory — Lord Viscount Althorpe, . James Grenville, Esq.;
granted, and a modification of Poyning's law, which would satisfy
Frederick Montagu, Esq.
the people, could not be dangerous to England. He then moved
Lord Commissioners of the Admiralty Sir Robert Harland, Bart., Hugh
Pigot, Esq., Lord Duncannon, Hon. John Townshend, C. Brett, Esq.,
for leave to bring in a bill, " repealing so much of the act of the 6th
R. Hopkins, Esq.
of George I. as asserted a right in the king and parliament of
Under Secretaries of State — Richard Brindsley Sheridan, Esq., Thomas.
Great Britain to make laws binding the kingdom and people of
Orde, Esq.
Ireland." He did not wish to be precipitate ; but the recess of
Attorney-General — Lloyd Kenyon, Esq.
the Irish parliament would terminate in eight days, and Mr. Grat-
Solicitor-General — John Lee, Esq.
tan would then renew and carry his motion for a declaration of
Secretary at War — Hon. Thomas Townshend.
rights. It would surely, then, be adviseable to anticipate the
Treasurer of the Navy— Right Hon. Isaac Barre.
wishes of the people, to afford them a pledge of the sincerity of
Paymaster-General of the Forces— Edmund Burke, Esq.
England, a security for the permanency of the constitution, and
Joint Postmaster-General — Earl of Tankerville, Right Hon. H. F.Carterct."
Vice-Admiral of Scotland — Lord William Gordon.
of that trade they were so anxious to preserve.
Lieutenant General of the Ordnance — Sir William Howe.
Surveyor General of ditto.— Hon. Thomas Pelham.
Mr. Secretary Fox rose. He declared he felt it necessary
To command the grand fleet — Lord Howe (created a Viscount).
to say something, though he would not make all the obser-
Created Lord Grantiey — Sir Fletcher Norton.
vations on what had fallen from the right honourable gen-
Lord Lieutenant of Ireland — Duke of Portland.
Joint Vice-Treasurers of Ireland—Earl of Scarborough, Sir George
tleman on the flow-, (Mr. Eden) which had suggested them-
selves to
Yonge, Bart.
his mind, because he must in that case greatly
Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant — Colonel Fitzpatrick.
fatigue the House, and because he was persuaded every
Conunandex in Chief of the Forces in Ireland Lieut.-General Burgoyne,
gentleman present felt as he did, on the very' extraordinary
proceedings of the day. The House would recollect, that
n honourable gentleman behind hint, had given rise to the
vol.. Ir.
AT'f)-.1Itg. OF IRELAND;
[April' a
AFFAIRS or IRELAND.
S
ri82 1
51
debate, by getting up to remind them of what he had said
idea that her claims were either unjust or unreasonable, not
relative to Ireland, previous to the recess, and that the same:
from the most distant intention of letting them remain nrt-
honourable gentleman had called on the right honourable
aasfied. Had the right honourable gentleman thought pro-
member on the floor to give the House some information
per tn consult his majesty's ministers upon the subject, he
respecting the state of affairs in Ireland. Upon which that
would have learnt, that the matter had been, and was under
right honourable gentleman, without any previous consulta-,
their consideration, and that not many days, or rather not
tion with his majesty's ministers, without saying a syllable to
many hours would have been suffered to pass, before some
any one member of administration upon the subject, had,
proposition would have been offered to that House in order
thought proper to move for the repealof the 6th of George I.
to conciliate the affections of the Irish, of whose loyalty and
thereby abandoning at once the supremacy of this country
of whose admiration and regard for this country there could
over Ireland, and disuniting that kingdom from this at a
single stroke.. The right honourable gentleman's motion was
be Ononedotlilibnt.g , however, he had learnt from the very extra-
in substance and effect nothing less than a declaration of
ordinary speech of the right honourable gentleman, and that
unconditional submission on. the part of Great Britain, and
was, the motive of his post-haste journey to England. It
a. direct relinquishment of her dearest and most valuable
was now evident, that the right honourable gentleman had
rights.
come over so suddenly for the sole purpose of surrendering
For himself; Mr. Fox said, he was so new in office, he had
the supremacy of this country over Ireland. New as the dee-
no right to claim any respect whatever ; but for those of his-
trine of disuniting was in the mouths of the late ministers
majesty's ministers, with whom he was joined, he was war-
and their friends, and ill-advised as it might be in the pre-
ranted to say, it would have been decent, it would have been
sent instance, he wished they had adopted it earlier, and that
respectful to have consulted them previous to the taking any
the unity of the British empire had not been so obstinately •
step in parliament, on a topic of so much importance. Had the
insisted on. Had the opportunity that offered for gratifying
right honourable gentleman done so, he would have learnt,.
the reasonable requests of Ireland some years ago been seized,
that short as the time was, that his majesty's present ministers
had her petitions been complied with when she came, to the
had been in their situations, they had turned their most se-
bar of the 1Thuse: submissive and obedient, standing, as all
rious attention to the alarming state of Ireland, and that it
who ask a Favourdo usually stand, on the justice of their
was not from any indisposition to do Ireland justice, that
claim, rather than on their power, this country would have
they bad not on that first day of their setting their feet in
acted a wise part, and might have graciously granted those
that House as minister: proposed some measures, which
boom which bad since been, as it were, torn from her in a
should in their consideration. be wise and. expedient, and likely
manner exceedingly disgraceful to Great Britain. But in
to conciliate the affections of the people of Ireland, and put
perfect consistency to the custom of the late ministry, (by
an end to the maxisinesses, jealousies,- mid tumults that it was.
whom every thing, that was asked, however reasonable, how-
well known had subsisted, and continued to subsist in that
ever right, was contemptuously denied as long as they dared
much-injured country. It was not from any want of inclina-
venture to deny, and then when the moment of danger
tion to do Ireland right, that they had not yet taken such a
arrived, though what was barely moderate was refused before,
step, but merely from a disdain to follow the example of the
more than was compatible with the honour of the country,
worst sort of conduct of their predecessors in office, who were
was shamefully and meanly given up,) the °
riaht honourable
always catching at expedients of the moment, and were
gentleman, who, during his ministry in Ireland, had uniformly
rather willing to patch up a present difficulty, at any rate,
apposed all the claims made by different gentlemen on dif-
than to meet it fairly, to fathom its depth, and to consider
ferent grounds, and, as flr as he had considered them, on
e
gxotoetl
what was likely to be a solid and permanent means of reme-
iagtahoautnedSt
the Irish parliament, was the first to post
dying a real evil, and preventing its arising in future. It was
Over to
and propose a measure of the most alarming
with a view to settle the constitution of the two countries ha
be conceived.
such a manner as should be perfectly satisfactory to England:
While
said
he said this, be begged not to be understood as
and Ireland, and should promise to give a lasting harmony.
gring any Opi nion whether the measure was, or was not,
p
a
to both, that his majesty's ministers paused upon the subject;
on,
(self. He was passing no opinion upon it
lratetier
not from any indisposition towards Ireland, not from any.
L:1117
le Was merely describing the very extraordinary
E 9
25
AFFAIRS OF IRELAND.
[April
-1132•1
AFFAIRS OF IRELAND.
53
manner in which it-was brought forward, and the nature of
that day. Ile had been sent over here for the express pur-
it. For his part, he was most fully persuaded, that Ireland
pose of' bringing the Earl of Carlisle's resignation, and of
had a just right to expect ample redress from this country
giving his majesty's ministers full, fair; and candid infor-
for the oppressive treatment she had long groaned under,
illation of the state of facts -in Ireland; and how had the
and he would answer for the rest of his majesty's ministers,
right honourable gentleman complied with his instructions?
that they were of the same opinion; but they must be strange
He had come to town, and finding the ministry -changed,
counsellors of the crown, who would venture to advise his.
had sent a letter to a noble lord, (a colleague of his,) -declar-
majesty of a sudden to come into so extensive a proposition
ing that he would give them no information whatever -respect-
as that then before the House. The subject was nice, and
ing Ireland, and menacing them with a threat that 'be would,
it required. the deepest consideration. He was not ripe to
as that day, come down to the House, and speak -upon the
pronounce upon the motion, but he was far from saying that.
subject of Ireland. He owned, for his part, that he had no
something like it might not be proper; all he wished- was,
great dread of that menace, though lie was at a loss to guess
not to be urged to pass a hasty judgment on so important a
what the right honourable gentleman meant to say. The
business.
candour of the House was what he had so often experienced,
The right honourable gentleman had talked of his ad-.
that he was not much terrified at the right honourable gen-
ministration having been a fortunate one ; it appeared to him
tleman's threat. The House now knew what -its nature was,
to he the oddest result of a. fortunate administration that
and he was perfectly at their disposal.
could be conceived, for the minister of Ireland to feel him-
With regard to the alarming state of Ireland, lie did not
self bound to post over to England, to propose such a motion
-at all doubt hut it was pretty correctly described by the right
as that under discussion. God defend him from the good
honourable gentleman; but then it ought to be remembered
fortune of producing such a consequence by his administration!
to what it was ascribeable. He declared he felt it right to
But that was not the only surprising, the only paradoxical
take that opportunity of saying, that though he thought but
part of the right honourable gentleman's speech; he had
very indifferently of the state of the country a fortnight ago,
talked. of the volunteers of Ireland in a way equally unac-
his opinion then was nothing compared to his knowledge upon
countable. He had said, they took up arms in the summer
the same subject at that moment. His suspicions of the ne-
of 178o for their amusement. Oh„ most wonderful amuse-
elieence and scandalous mismanagements of his majesty's late
- tient, most strange turn of diversion ! It was to that amuse-
ministers were now matured into ripe judgments, and he was
ment, and to that diversion, that the right honourable gen-
sorry to have found that things were infinitely worse than he
tleman was impelled to post over to England, in order to
had imagined them to be, and that bad as they had been
'make his motion. It was to the power of the volunteers of
described, the description given to that House by himself
Ireland, and not to the justice 'of their claims, that the right
and others from time to time fell infinitely short of the real
honourable gentleman now felt it necessary to propose a
situation of affairs — which situation was in his mind so clearly
matter directly contrary to the whole system of his conduct
ascribeable to the neglects of the late ministers, that he
during hie adininistration. The right honourable gentleman
should not think the present administration acted tidily' and
had said, there was no other opposition to his administration,
honestly by that House and the people, if they did not in-
but such as every government must wish for, and such as just
ssttoitoudtie. enquiries, and such enquiries as should give the coml.,
served to keep them awake. Did the House know, what the , -
stiliao-iail correct state of the condition, in which public matters
sort of opposition really was, and of whom it was constituted?
Had the House heard the names of Lord Charlemont, of
With
b
egard to the present motion, he trusted that he
Mr. Yelverton, of Mr. Grattan, of Mr. Burgh, of Mr. Flood,
shouldnort e misrepresented in consequence -of what he had
and of many others, which he - would not then mention
said upon it, and held out to Ireland as a person indisposed
Names of the greatest, the ablest, and the honestest men in
to
rt grant her relief, or unwilling: to admit the truth and just-
Ireland ! The Lord defend him from such opposers ! The
ess of her claims. On the contrary, lie thought Ireland
Lord keep him from having his measures objected to by per-
had strong grounds of complaint, and that her claims ought
sons of such wisdom, such ability, and such weight !
to be complied with as far as they possibly could. He re-
The whole of the right honourable gentleman's conduct.,
peated it therefore, that he and the rest of his majesty's mi-
as the minister of Ireland, was as extraordinary a g his speech
nisters were most cordially and sincerely inclined to do
P 3
54
ArizAnis or xREI.AND.
[April 8,
itrizAiRs OF IRELAND.
17821
55
Ireland ample justice, and that it had been one of the first
.ate, or an unhandsome sort, that he would not read it to the
•objects of their consideration upon coming into office. That
House, unless the right honourable gentleman gave him his
in a few hours sonle propositions would be offered to the
consent. Mr. Eden having said, he had no objection to the
House with respect to Ireland, and that he did not object to
letter being read, Mr.. Fox read the letter and remarked
the present motion from any conviction that it was an min,
proper one, but merely because he was not quite ripe to
say, that it was the best motion that could be brought. for-.
The following is a copy thereof:—
'
ward on the subject. He should therefore not meet it with
Dowling Street,. Apri 1 5, r 782.
a negative, but with a previous question, or, he believed,
" My Lord,
it would be a more regular mode of getting rid of it for
" Ravin; re-considered the-conferencewith which your lordship yester-
the present, by moving the order of the day upon it.
,lay indulged me, I think that I ought specifically to state my reasons for
He
having often declined your intimations to use to enter into opinions aria
-wished for this to give time to the king's servants to deter.
facts respecting the present circumstances of Ireland, .and the measures
mine with precision on the plan to be offered to both emu-.
best to be pursued there. When I arrived in London, I came prepared
tries; and he had the utmost reason to hope and believe,
and disposed, and instructed to serve, most cordially, in the critical mea-
sure of closing the Lord Lieutenant's government, so as to place it with
that the matter would be finally settled without any of those
all practicable advantages in the hands of ,whatever person his majesty's
consequences which the conduct of the right honourable gen..
ministers might have destined-to succeed to it.
tleman in this business had been calculated to produce. He
" I pre-supposed, however, that either his excellency would be recalled
wished, he confessed, that the right honourable gentleman
very soon, but.not without the attentions which are duelo.hini, his
— .
station;
.and his services; or that his majesty's ministers would assist and instruct
would withdraw his motion, as the hest means; and by which
him in first concluding the business of the session, and the various public
an honourable friend of his, Mr. Crewe, would be able to
measures and arrangements of some difficulty and consequence, which are
move for leave to bring in a bill, which he had introduced
immediately connected with it, and which cannot le compleated in less
some years ago, for disqualifying excise and custom-house
than four or five months.
" Finding, however, to my extreme surprize, that the manner of
officers from voting at elections. This was a part of the plan
giving
the lieutenancy of the East Riding to Lord Carmarthen, had been such as
which had been formed when they were out of office, for
to amount to a marked and personal insult, when it is considered that the
retbrming the constitution of parliament, and which they
thing taken is merely honourar •, and .that the.person from whom it is
seriously meant to undertake now with the same zeal and
taken is an absent viceroy; and hearing also from your lordship, that the
Duke of Portland is not unlikely to be made the immediate and actual
attention as before. Not a day l'irould be lost until the task
messenger of his own appointment, I from that moment declined any
of reducing the improper influence of the crown, and settling
communication respecting facts and measures; because this line adopted
the representation of the people upon more equal grounds,
towards the present lord lieutenant, must in my opinion be fatal to the
was fulfilled. The right honourable gentleman had said,
ease of his successors fbr a long period of time, and ruinous to all good
• government, and the consequent peace of Ireland.
that his opposition to the various motions that had been,Made
" Your lordship has informed me, that this is not meant as a personal
in the Irish House of Commons, had been supported by great
exertion of power against Lord Carlisle, but that his majesty's ministers
majorities, He said, that he wished these majorities had been
have adopted this mode of removing the Lord Lieutenant, as a wise mea-
sure of government. I differ so totally in my judgment, that it would be
less. It was the greatness of those majorities and the manner
idle in me to trouble them further respecting Ireland.
in which they were constituted, that had given offence and
"
j I shall, as the duty of my situation requires, wait on such of his ma-
j ealousy to the people of Ireland. They, no doubt, desired
esty's ministers as are disposed to see me, and with that respect which is
to see a free representation, declaring honestly their voice in
due to them, shall submit what I have here stated.
" My next anxiety is to act as I believe Lord Carlisle would wish me
• the senate. To correct the abuses in influence and repre-
to act, for his honour and the public service,— two objects which cannot at
sentation, would be the steady endeavours of his majesty's
this moment be separated. I am ready this evening, or to-morrow morn-
ministers. He concluded with moving for the order of the
ing, at any hour, to attend the commands of his majesty's ministers, either
s
day; this-he would not have done upon any other account
eparately or collectively. To-morrow at two, I shall go into the country,
than that the motion was of such a sort, and
to make a visit of personal respect and private friendship; and on Mon_
came at such a
clay,
aYi in the H
m
House of Comons, I shall state, as fully as
time; but he hoped that the right honourable gentleman.
Permit,
e
aweak voice wilt
tNovhfaart
what Tco,
conceive to. be the
circumstances of Ireland : I shall
would vet withdraw it.
do this
out
mixture of complaint, and with the most anxious
regar
Mr. Fox produced the letter sent by Mr. Eden to Lord
facilitate
subsequent
any su .sequou system for the public tranquillity; I
only
hall onl
shall
Shelburne, and said, though it was undoubtedly of a public
l et it be implied by the world, from
ad
Irish facts, in con-
trctio
•• n E
to , -g1.
treatment, that the present Lord Lieutenant of Ire-
:nature, yet so unwilling was he to do any thing of an indeh-
leis
land, (I borrow as own words from his last letter to your lordship,) has
B 4
S6
AFFAIRS OF IRELAND.
[April t
/782.]
AFFAIRS OF IRELAND:
5 7
upon it in the course of his recitation of the different passages,
vier. He held all attempts to deceive and delude .a country
deducing an argument from the whole, that it amounted to
to be not more base in themselves, than weak, absurd, and
an express declaration, that the sender of it, on account of the
impolitic, and so fitr was he from thinking that Great Bri-
Earl of Carlisle being removed suddenly from his lieutenancy
tain had a right to govern Ireland, if she did not clause to
of Yorkshire, and from his viceroyalty, would not communi-
be governed by us, that he maintained no country that ever
cate with his majesty's ministers upon the subject of facts in
bad existed or did exist, had a right to hold the sovereignty
Ireland, though the right honourable gentleman's instructions
of another, against the will and consent of that other.
were to give ministers a lid): and full account of affairs there.
With regard to the recalling the Earl of Carlisle, Mr. Fox
The motion was withdrawn with the leave of the House,
said, it was very extraordinary for the right honourable gen-
tleman to declare himself piqued because he supposed the
April n.
Earl of Carlisle treated unhandsomely in being recalled,
although he had himself brought over the Earl's resignation,
Mr. Secretary Fox presented the following message to the
and that couched in the most unconditional terms, without
Commons from the king:
the least hint of a desire to continue in Ireland any longer.
" GEORGE IL
He protested, he had a great degree of personal regard for
" His majesty being concerned to find that discontents and
the Earl of Carlisle. He knew him, and respected his abili-
jealousies are prevailing among his loyal subjects in Ireland, upon
matters of great weight and importance, earnestly recommends
ties, and by no means meant him any personal disrespect or
to this House, to take the same into their most serious considera-
indignity. He reminded the right honourable gentleman of
tion, in order to such a final adjustment as may give a mutual
the harsh manner in which Lord Carmarthen had been re.
satisfaction to both kingdoms."
moved from his lieutenancy, and what he had, among others,
The message being read by the Speaker ;
said in parliament on that subject. In consistency to what
he had then said, the noble lord was restored to his lieu-
Mr. Secretary Fox rose and said, he- hoped gentlemen
tenancy. In regard to Ireland, the Duke of Portland, who
would see, that as little time as possible had been lost by
going
was oin over there, would, he had no doubt, from his abi-
his majesty's ministers, in paying a due attention to the affairs
lities and excellent character in private life, obtain the con-
of Ireland, in order to quiet those discontents and jealousies
fidence of Ireland ; and he thought that country, hearing of
that had prevailed there unfortunately for some time past,
the change of ministers, would have confidence enough in
but of late to a very alarming degree ; at the same time, he
his majesty's new servants to believe them inclined to do Ire-
hoped, he might presume upon so much credit with the House,
land every possible justice.. Had his majesty's present mi-
as to expect to be relied on, when he assured gentlemen, that
nisters ever been advocates for nominal dignity, had they held
the paper that had been then read, was not procured in
out principles of coercion, had they either in regard to Ame-
consequence of what had passed in that House the preceding
rica, or to any other part of what was formerly the British
day. Why that message was not brought down yesterday,
dominions, avowed principles that savoured of severity or
was rather owing to accident than to any other cause; the
despotism, he should not at all wonder at their intentions
discontents and jealousies that had subsisted in Ireland having
being doubted ; but as, on the contrary, they had uniformly
been one of the first objects of attention with his majesty's pre-
avowed and acted upon doctrines of a directly opposite ten-
sent servants. He added, that it was not his purpose to do more
dency, be thought them entitled to some degree of credit
for the present, than to move, what undoubtedly it was the
and confidence, and the more especially as be had so re-
duty of the House to vote, namely, an address to his majesty,
peatedly and so expressly reprobated that sort of government,
humbly thanking him for his most gracious message, and
which rested upon deceiving the people in any instance what-
assuring him, that the House would, at an early day, proceed
to take such steps in the business, as should seem most likely
answer
and his
to swer
b
majesty's request effectually. Mr. Fox said,
had the
.the reason why he meant to proceed no farther just at that
good fortune to conduct the business of Ireland, at a most cri-
tical period, without discredit to his majesty's government, and with many
Taoment, was, because it was the wish of his majesty's ser-
increasing advantages to the interests of his kingdoms."
41-ants not to follow the example of their predecessors in office,
" I have the honour to Ve, &e.
y
"'WM. EDEN."
applying a temporary remedy to a temporary evil,
AFFAIRS OF IRELAND.
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AFFAIRS OF IRELAND.
[April 9.
1 782.1
59
just put off the inconvenience of the day, but they were
May T 7.
resolved to take care to act in such a manner as should pro..
raise a permanent peace to both countries, and give a stability,
It being the declared intention of administration to proceed in
as it were, to the restoration of harmony, good humour and
this arduous business in concert with the parliament of Ireland, a
message, conceived in the same terms with those presented to the
friendship, between Great Britain and Ireland. The most
English Houses, was sent by the Duke of Portland, the new lord
likely means to quiet the discontents and jealousies that sub-
lieutenant, to the Commons of that kingdom, immediately after
sisted at present between the two countries, was, to do it in
his arrival, to take upon him the government. The address to
such a manner as should settle the constitution of both, and
the king, in consequence of this message, was moved by Mr.
draw the line between them clearly and cordially, in order to
Grattan, the great and eloquent leader of the popular party.
ascertain the nature of their connexions in future. It was,
This address, after a full and explicit assertion of the independent
he observed, impossible to do this with the little information
rights of the kingdom of Ireland, proceeded to state the causes
then before the House upon the subject; it was first necessary
of those jealousies and discontents which had arisen in that
country ; namely, the act of the 6th of George the First ; the
for them to come at a precise knowledge of what were the
power of suppressing or altering bills in the privy council ; and
wishes and what the expectations of Ireland ; and as there
the perpetual. mutiny bill. It concluded with expressing their
were those going there whose duty it would be to investigate
most sanguine expectations from his majesty's virtuous choice of
those wishes and expectations, and who would doubtless
a chief governor, and their great confidence in the wise auspices
have none of those reasons for withholding the information
and constitutional counsels which they had the satisfaction to see
they might acquire upon the subject, which some others had
his majesty had adopted. On the ground of this address, the
declared themselves to be actuated by ; as soon as facts were
House of Commons this clay went into a committee of the whole
in the possession of ministers, they would communicate them
House, to take into consideration the king's speech'of the gth of
to that House, and both together might then go hand in
April, relative to the state of Ireland ; to which committee the
addresses of the parliament of Ireland being referred,
hand and in certainty upon the business, and do it effectually
and satisfactorily to both countries. As a new lord lieutenant
Mr. Secretary Fox rose. He said, that in discussing a
was just setting off for Ireland, Mr. Fox declared, he thought
subject of such magnitude as that which he was about to
it indispensably necessary to take that step previous to his
submit to the consideration of the committee, it was his in-
setting off; in order that on his arrival in Dublin, the people
tention to speak as plainly, as roundly, and as intelligibly as he
of Ireland might entertain no doubt of the sincerity of the
possibly could : at the same time he was aware, that, on such
intentions of the new ministers, nor of the incl in ation of the
a subject, he must speak with some degree of diffidence and
crown and the British parliament respecting them. Seeing
caution; because he was afraid that, on one hand, he might
that the intentions of that House wereiounded in reality and
be thought to grant too much to Ireland ; while, on the
seriousness, he had no doubt but they would allow the delay,
other, some might think that he did not grant enough : at
(riot a long one certainly) that would necessarily be occasioned
all events, he would s*ak his sentiments with freedom;
by the adjustment of a business, from which he flattered him-
desiring, however, that what :should fall from him might be
self wouldresult very beneficial consequences to the commerce
considered principally as coming from him in the capacity of
and prosperity, the case and the happiness of both countries
an English member of parliament, rather than as a minister.
He then moved, " That an humble address be presented to
•
Having premised this, he entered upon the subject. The
his majesty, to return his majesty the thanks of this House,
committee, he observed, must know from the address that
for his most gracious message; and to assure his majesty,
had been just read, that the parliament of Ireland had spoken
that this House, feeling with his majesty the deapest concern
1
6:1:; 01and stated m clear terms, what it was -that they re-
that discontents and jealousies should have arisen among his
quired. The great points to which the claims or the Irish
majesty's loyal subjects in Ireland, will, without delay, take
parliament were directed, appeared to be the repeal of the
the same into their most serious consideration, in order to
George the First ; the restoration of the appellant
such a final adjustment as may give -mutual satisfaction to
Jurisdiction • the modification of Poyning's law ; and the
both kingdoms."
repeal of the perpetuating clause `in the mutiny bill. On
each of these points, he intended to offer a 'few observations
The motion was agreed to nem.,cone.
to the committee.
-0
6o
AFFAIRS OF IRELAND.
[May t7;
782.3
AFFAIRS OF IRELAND.
61
2
And first, with regard to the act of the 6th of George the
expellee of the other. When the Irish first- complained of
First, it had always been his opinion out of office, that it 'was
this monopoly about four years ago, and asked as favours
downright tyranny to make laws for the internal government
what they might have claimed as a right, they were opposed
of a people, who were not represented among those by whom
in that House ; and their demands, which were no less
such laws were made. This was an opinion so founded in
modest than just, were disregarded. It was not local or com-
justice, in reason, and in equity, that in no situation had he,
mercial jealousy, so common in all countries, that had ope-
or would he ever depart from it : it was true, nevertheless,
rated to the disappointment of the Irish at that time ; their
that he was not an enemy to the declaratory act, which had
demands had been rejected, when the then first confidential
been passed relative to America ; yet his principles were not
servant of the crown in that House came down to vote against
inconsistent nor incompatible with that act. He had always
them; the influence of the minister was exerted, perhaps for
made a distinction between internal and external legislation ;
the purpose of preserving a few votes on other occasions;
and though it would be tyranny to attempt to enforce the
and the rights and distresses of Ireland were consigned to
former, in countries not represented in the British parlia-
oblivion. Thus the supreme power of the British parliament
ment, yet he was clear that the latter was, in reason and in
was employed to gratify a few, and to distress a whole king-
policy, annexed to the British legislature; this right of pre-
dom. What was the consequence ? The Irish finding, that
rogative or supremacy, lie was convinced, would never have
they bad nothing to expect in the British House of Com-
given umbrage to any part of the British empire, if' it had
mons from the j ustice of their demands, found resources
been used solely for the general good of the empire; but
in themselves; they armed; their parliament spoke out; and
when it was made an instrument of tyranny and oppression,
the very next year, the same minister who before had put
it was not to be thought wonderful, that it should excite
a negative on all their expectations, came clown to the
discontents, murmurings, and opposition. When local legis-
House, and making the amende honorable for his past con-
latures were established in different parts of the empire, it
duct, gave to the demands of an armed people, infinitely
was clear that it was for this purpose, that they might answer
more than he had refused to the modest applications of an
all municipal ends; and the great superintending power of
t.
unarmed humble nation. Such had been the conduct of the
the state ought not to be called into action, but in aid of the
then minister and his colleagues; and this was the lesson that
local legislature, and for the good of the empire at large ;
the Irish had been taught : " If you want any thing, seek not
but when ministers, judging by what they had, of what they
for it unarmed and humbly; but take up arms, speak man-
might have, carried the principle of external to internal
fully and boldly to the British ministry, and you will obtain
legislation, and attempted to bind the internal government
more than you at first might have ventured to expect."
of its colonies by acts, in the passing of .which ,the colonies
This was the happy consequence of the ill use made of the
had no voice, that power, which, on proper occasions, would -
superintending power of the British parliament, which was
have been cheerfully obeyed, created animosity and hatred,
perverted from its true use, and instead of being the means
and had produced the dismemberment of an empire, which,
of rendering the different parts of the empire happy and
if properly exerted, it would have served to unite and bind
connected, had made millions of subjects rise up against a
in the firmest manner.
power, which they felt only as a scourge. If, therefore, he
Ireland had the same reason to spurn at this power of
should be obliged to move any proposition that might appear
external legislation, because it had been hitherto employed
humiliating on the part of Great Britain, or hurtful to the
for the purpose only of oppressing and distressing her. Had
pride of Englishmen, the fault was not his; it was the fault
Ireland never been made to feel this power as a curse, She
of those who had left it in the power of the volunteers to
never would have complained of it; and the best and most
make the demands contained in the addresses on the table;
effectual way to have kept it alive, would have been, not to
-%-ho had left it in their power, not by leaving arms in their.
have made use of it. Ireland would then have suffered this
but leaving them their injuries and oppressions.
harmless power to exist in the statute book ; she never would
It was his intentionnot to pursue the footsteps of his prede-
c
have called out for a renunciation of it. But, fatally for this
u
essors; and therefore he would agree to the demands of the.
country, this power of external legislation had been employed
relative to the repeal of the 6th of George I., not
against Ireland as an instrument of oppression, to establish
because
a
was i
use nntimidated, and afraid to oppose those
an impolitic monopoly in trade; to enrich one country at the
s; but because he believed them to he founded in
6z
AFFAIRS OF IRELANI).
[May 17,
AFFAIRS or IRELAND.
63
1 78'2.]
justice ; and he would have been as ready to grant them if
Ile came next to the modification of the law of Poyning,
Ireland made them now, in the same unarmed and modest
admitted,
bl
ni tetn u
e d,
said, that by this law, a strange
manner, in which she preferred her complaints four years
ation beha
been
alteration
made in the form- of the constitution of
ago. A man must be a shallow politician indeed, who could
Ireland, by making the privy-council of that kingdom a branch
not find means of distressing Ireland, and making her feel
of the legislature; and those who were acquainted with the
the weight of calamity ; it might be distressing to Ireland, if
nature of the interference of that privy-council, knew very
his majesty's servants should advise the king not to give his
well, that it was of the greatest detriment to the state; for
assent to the bill for quieting the possession of those who hold
pot onl y it sometimes suppressed bills which had passed the
estates in Ireland, under English laws ; the resources of this
House of Lords or Commons, nemine . dissentiente ; but such
country were amply sufficient for the purposes of devastation;
was the nature of it, that bills were sometimes passed accord-
the deserted towns and villages, the ruined provinces of
ing to form indeed, but in fact, nemine assentiente ; when it
America, would bear testimony to the power of the British
was contrary to the intention of any man m the House, that
arms to depopulate countries, mid deluge them with blood ;
such bills should pass, they were nevertheless supported by all,
but he mast be a shallow politician who would resort to such
in confidence that in the privy-Council they would be thrown
means to enforce obedience to laws, which were odious to
out. This kind of conduct was merely to gain popularity;
those whom they were made to bind. For his part, he had
that men who did not wish to oppose popular opinions, which
rather see Ireland totally separated from the crown of Eng-
they did not approve, should nevertheless unanimously give
land, than kept in obedience only by force. Unwilling sub-
way to those opinions, merely because they knew they would
jects were little better than enemies; it would be better not,
be rejected in the privy-council. For his own part, he was
to have subjects at All, than to have such as would be cona
free to confess that the interference of that body, and their
tinually on the watch, to seize the opportunity of making
power to stop bills in their progress from parliament to the
themselves free. If this country should attempt to coerce
king, appeared to him improper ; and therefore he could have
Ireland, and succeed in the attempt, the consequence would
no objection to advise his majesty to consent to the modifica-
be, that, at the breaking out of every war with any foreign
tion that they required, of that law, from which the privy-
power, the first step must be to send troops over to secure
council derived that power. But the jealousies of the Irish
Ireland, instead of calling upon her to give a willing support
went farther; they were jealous of the interference of the
to the common cause.
English privy-council; and he admitted that the alterations
Having said thus much with regard to the repeal of the 6th
which had sometimes been made by it in Irish bills, had given
of George I., which he intended to agree to in the most un
but too just cause for jealousy. It was generally understood
eqnivocal planner, he touched next upon the appellant juris-
in Ireland, that Irish bills were frequently altered in England
diction. Upon this question he thought there was no manner
with very little consideration, and sometimes by a single per-
of difficulty whatever ; for when the great question of legisla-
son, the attorney-general; which single person the Irish
tion was given up, he did not see that it was of any conse-
imagined made alterations, without giving that attention to
quence still to maintain to this country the jurisdiction in
the bills which the importance of the subject required. He
appeals : but even if it was a desirable object, or likely to
would not say that these opinions were in general well found-
strengthen the tie between the two countries, it must be given
ed; but this he wasaconvinced of, that, like the 6th of Geor ge I.,
up, for the Irish insisted upon it ; and there was a particular
this power of altering might have still remained, if an im-
reason for complying with their desires on that head. The
praod p er use had not been made of it; but to his knowledge it
decrees or judgine»ts of our courts of law here in matters of
h
been grossly
b
'
ern gloss y abused; in one instance, in particular, a bill
appeal, were to be carried into execution—where' In Ire-
had been sent over to England t -
two years ago, granting, and
land. By whom? By the people of Ireland. Now, as ;.lie
very wisely and very justly granting, indulgences to the Ito-.
people of Ireland had one and all declared, that they would
man Catholics; in that same bill there was a clause in favour
not execute or obey any order of any English tribunal, it
of the dissenters,
for
ssenters, or repealing the ancramental test; this clause
would be nugatory and absurd to maintain the appellant juris-
was struck
uck out, contrary, in his opinion, to sound policy, as
the a
diction to Great Britain ; and consequently it. would be better
al
.
teration
•
anon tended to make an improper discrimination be-
n C`.0
to give it up with a good grace,
11 two
than to keep it as ?, bone of
descr ipt ion of men, which did not tend to the
14114) 11 of
s '
Wntention between the two countries.
the
I people, It was by such conduct, that the Irish
II
AFFAIRS OF IRELAND.
[May t
/782t]
AFFAIRS or IRELAND.
65
were driven to pronounce the interference of the English
to 'enter into a treaty, commissioners might be sent from the
privy-council in altering their bills, a grievance, though in
British parliament, or from the crown, to enter upon it, and
his opinion the power would never have been complained of,
bring the negociation to ahappy issue, by giving mutual satis-
if it had never been abused.
faction to both countries, and establishing a treaty which
He came lastly to the mutiny bill, and he freely confessed,
should be sanctified by the most solemn forms of the consti-
that it was no matter of surprise, that the Irish should object
tut
:itfhsbtoatnlid iciolgunt
countries.
N
ioontssv
to a clause which gave a perpetual establishment to a military
iis
of country was parting with what she
force in their country ; and so hostile did he deem such a
had hitherto held and exercised, still he could not look upon
clause to the constitution of England as well as of Ireland,
this day as a day of humiliation to her; she was giving up
that if the Irish had never mentioned this law among their
what it was just she should give up ; and in so doing, she
grievances, he would have held it to be his duty, as an En-
was offering a sacrifice to justice; policy and justice com-
glishman, to have recommended the repeal of it. The Irish
bined to induce her to offer it ; but he should be sorry that
must naturally feel that jealousy for their constitution, which
an idea should prevail, that she was giving to fear what she
the English feel for theirs, and which they express by passing
would deny to justice : fear, he declared, was out of the
a mutiny law only for one year : this perpetuating clause had
question. He said he entertained no gloomy thoughts with
this effect also, that it rendered the interference of the English
respect to Ireland : he had not a doubt but she would be
privy-council still more and more odious. All that remained
satisfied with the manner in which England was about to
at present, was to s pew a readiness to satisfy the Irish on this
comply with her demands; and that in affection, as well as
head, and remove or repeal the clause in question.
in interest, they would be but one people. If any man en-
Having thus gone through the various grievances and de-
tertained gloomy ideas, he desired him to look at the con-
mands of Ireland, he observed, that the committee must see
cluding paragraph of the Irish addresses, where he would find,
that there were only one or two points, in which the interfe-
that the Irish people and parliament were filled with the most
rence of the British parliament was necessary ; and these
earnest desire to support England, to have the same enemy
were the repeal of the 6th of George I. and the restoration
and the same friend ; in a word, to stand or fall with Eng-
of the appellant jurisdiction to Ireland : the other points lay--
land. He desired gentlemen to look forward to that happy
between the parliament of Ireland and the king ; and cer-
period, when Ireland should experience the blessings that
tainly he should, as one of the servants of the crown, advise
attend freedom of trade and constitution ; when by the rich-
his majesty to satisfy the other demands of his Irish subjects.
ness and fertility of her soil, the industry of her Manufac-
Ireland had spoken out, and clearly and plainly stated what
turers, and the increase of her population, she should become
she wanted; he would be as open with her, and though he
a powerful country ; then might England look for powerful
might perhaps have been better pleased, if the mode of ask-
assistance in seamen to man her fleets, and soldiers to fight her
ing had been different, still he would meet her upon her own
battles. England, renouncing all right to legislate for Ireland,
terms, and give her every thing she wanted, in the way
the latter would most cordially support the former as a friend-
-
which she herself seemed to wish for it. She therefore coal&
whom she loved; if this country, on the other hand, was to
have no reason to complain; the terms acceded to by England,
assume the powers of making laws for Ireland, she must only
were proposed by herself; the manner of redress had been
make an enemy instead of a friend; for where there was not a
com
prescribed by herself, and ail her wishes would now be gra-
munity of interests, and a mutual regard for those in-
t
tified in the way which she herself liked best. But as it was
erests, there the party whose interests were sacrificed, became
an enemy.
possible, that if nothing more was to be done, than what he.
y The intestine divisions of Ireland were no more;
the r
had stated to be his intention, Ireland might perhaps think
eligious prejudices of the age were forgotten, and the
Roman
of fresh grievances, and rise yearly in her demands, it was : t
Catholics being restored to the rights of men and citi-
tie
tens,
and proper that something should be now done towards esta-
would become an accession of strength and wealth to
e
blishing on a firm and solid basis the future connection of
mpire at large, instead of being a burthen to the land
th'at bore
the two kingdoms. But that was not to be proposed by Ilia.
them. The dissenters had tasted of the liberality
the
here in parliament ; it would be the duty of the crown to look
caf
legislature,
th clpslature, and now in common with their Roman
to that; the business might be first begun by his majesty's"
()1Lc br
vox.
ethren, would enjoy. that happy toleration which
servants in Ireland; and if afterwards it should be nccessarY
F
66
AFFAIRS OF IRELAND.
[May 17.
1782.]
STATE OF THE REPRESENTATION.
67
did not confer more happiness on those who were the objects
tries;
loyal
it
and attached as the Irish
of it than honour on those who established it.
were to his ma-
person and government, it
Upon the whole, he was convinced that the Irish desired
was not the king that was
sieesciiief bond of
nothing more ardently than proper grounds for being most
union ; it was a communion of affection,
of regard, of brotherly
cordially united to England ; and he was sure that they would
love, of consanguinity, and of con-
stitution. With regard
be attached to this country, even to bigotry. Of the volun-
to the bill, commonly called Mr.
Yelverton's bill, as it was founded
teers, he must speak respectfully : they had acted with temper
on this principle, that
England cannot
and moderation, notwithstanding their steadiness ; and he
legislate for Ireland, a principle milita,iny
against a positive
must in justice to them, and to his own principles, declare,
act of parliament, the privy council could
not advise
that they had not done a single act, for which they had not
the king to give his assent to it; but if the House
should
his veneration and respect ; and whatever blame there might
consent to the repeal of the act, then of course the
privy council might
be discovered in the course of the business, he did not impute
advise the passing of the bill, and then
no doubt it should be sent
a particle of it to Ireland ; but laid it all at the door of the
back to Ireland.
late administration. He concluded by moving, " 4 That it is
the opinion of this committee, that the Act of the 6th of
The motion passed without a division ; as did also the following
‘, That it is the opinion of this committee, that it is indispensable
George I., intituled, ' An Act for the better securing the
to the interests and happiness of both kingdoms, that the con-
dependency of the kingdom of Ireland, upon the crown of
nection between them should be established, by mutual consent,
Great Britain,' ought to be repealed."
=
upon a solid and permanent basis." After which, the House re-
solved, on the motion of Mr. Pox, " That an humble address be
Mr. Thomas Pitt seconded the motion, and members of all par-
presented to his majesty, that he will be graciously pleased to
ties concurred in applauding it. Lord Beauchamp alone expressed
take such measures as his majesty in his royal wisdom shall think
a doubt, that the repeal, leaving the question of right undecided,
most conducive to the establishing, by mutual consent, the con-
would not satisfy the English nation. Mr. Burke said, that it was
nection between this kingdom and the kingdom of Ireland, upon
not on such a day as that, when there was not a difference of opi-
a solid and permanent basis."
nion, that he would rise to fight the battle of Ireland ; her cause
was nearest his heart; and nothing gave him so much satisfaction,
when he was first honoured with a seat in that house, as the idea
that it might be in his power, some way or other, to be of service
to the country that gave him birth ; he had always said to himself,
that if such an insignificant member as he was could ever be so
fortunate as to render an essential service to England, and that his
MR. MITT'S MOTION ON THE STATE OF THE REPRESEN.
sovereign, or parliament, were going to reward him for it, he would
TATION.
say to them, " Do something for Ireland ; do something for my
country, and I am over rewarded." He was a friend to his coun-
May 7.
try; but gentlemen need not be jealous of that ; for in being the
R. WILLIAM PITT brought the subject of
friend of Ireland, he was of course the friend of England ; their
a reform in the
constitution of parliament again before the House. The
ins
interests were inseparable.
uperable difficulties that had occurred in bringing the friends
of such reformation to agree in any specific proposition, induced
Mr. Fox, in his reply to Lord Beauchamp, said, that O-
him on the present occasion to vary the mode of proceeding, and
to move,
A Was his intention to do away completely the idea of Eng-
That a committee be
presen
appointed to enquire into the
t state
land legislating for Ireland, so he should have no objection
of the representation of the Commons of Great Bri-
to word the repealing act in such manner, as to make it con-
tain in parliament, to report file same to the House, and likewise
what steps in their opinion
tain a specific renunciation of the right claimed by this coun-
,
con
't may be proper for parliament to take
try to legislate for Ireland. It was the same with respect
cerning the same." The debate was long, and ably.
1
!1?'
supported
the mover, Mr.
Clive appellant jurisdiction, he had not the least objection to,
Sawbridge, Sir George Savile, Mr. Secretary
l' ox, and others on the side of a reform.
,give it up in toto ; after' having given up legislation, he could
not stand out for comparatively an insignificant object; ap-
a M1. Secretary Fox said, he rose with pleasure
peals were not the bond of connection between the two cowl'
topic
to 'speak on
in which the rights of the
o
people,. and the
of the
freedom
subject, were so materially concerned. It was always
P 2
68
STATE OF THE REPRESENTATION.
[May 7,
1782.]
BILL FOR PREVENTING BRIBERY, &C.
69
contended, he said, that the people of England were virtu
not more than a fifty-fifth
ally represented, and it had been carried farther ; some per-
part of the representation: certainly,
sons had formerly said, that the people of America were in
no man in that House could in justice contend, that the county
fact as much represented as the people, of Birmingham;
of Middlesex was fairly represented ;` but if they did, he must
differ from them materially. He paid a Variety of compli-
though he was free to confess, that by the present House of
Commons the people were virtually represented; yet a vir-
ments to Mr. William Pitt, for his steady attachment to liberty,
tual representation was only a mere succedaneum for an equal
and was fearful that nothing but the most imminent danger
would awaken the people to a sense of their danger. He re-
representation, and gentlemen who were so strenuous for the
support of the present constitution, frequently made use of
probated the ruinous measures of the late ministry, and de-
clared that lie wished for no other support than what would
the franchise granted to freeholders by Henry the VIth,
naturally come from a thorough conviction that his measures
various ways, as best suited their purpose. If they would
were right.
only recollect, a freeholder of forty shillings in those days
was a man of great estate; to exclude every man now from
The motion was opposed by Mr. Powys, Mr. Thomas Pitt,
voting who .had not an estate equal to forty shillings in those
m•. Dundas, Mr. Rosewarne, Mr. Rigby, and others. Sir Horace
times, would be excluding the greatest part of the present
Mann having moved " That the other order of the day be now
freeholders. That the voice of the people was not to be
read," the House divided :
collected from the votes of that House was plain, for in all
Tellers.
Tellers
lyinw itt
the great questions for the welfare of the country, he had
{Mr.Yorke,Cambridgesh.
.—No r s
observed that the country members, who were most likely
Mr. Macdonald
6
f 141.
to be independent, had uniformly voted, in a proportion of
EDAlsr. Pitt's motion was consequently rejected. Mr.Byng
five-sixths for the question, but had been overpowered by
the members for the rotten boroughs, which totally defeated
every good end that could be proposed. The Duke of Rich-
mond, he said, had last year introduced a bill into the other
House of Parliament for an equal representation ; he could
LORI> 'MAHON'S BILL FOR PREVENTING BRIBERY AND
not, he owned, subscribe to all the parts of that bill, but he
EXPENCE AT ELECTIONS.
was convinced that the noble peer meant it for the public
good ; for he was not ashamed to confess that he looked upon
June 19.
him as the most able and fit Irian to bring about a reform of
any that this country could boast. It had been said, that
ON the 2 3 d of May, Lord Mahon obtained leave to bring in a
to add members to the counties would be encreasing the
bill for the better preventing bribery and expense in elections
aristocratic influence: he owned it would; and in some mea-
of members to serve in parliament. The bill was immediately pre-
sure he confessed himself a friend to that doctrine; but he
sented and read a -first time. It was afterwards read a second
would wish to be understood, at the same time, not to mean
time and committed. On the igth of June a motion was made for
taking
the influence of peels, but to consider the monied interest
the report into consideration. Upon this occasion Mr.
William
as the aristocratic part; men who had stakes to lose ought,
Pitt warmly supported the bill. He was astonished, he
said, that any gentleman should be hostile to a measure, which, in
and he trusted would be the most anxious, to preserve them.,,*
his opinion, was highly constitutional. It had been called an inno-
It had been suggested to him, that the army and navy ought'
vation ; it was no innovation. It referred merely to the mode of
to be excluded that House; he was of quite a different opi-
conducting a very constitutional business ; .a mode which had con-
ti
nion ; for he could wish in order to make that House perfect,
nually warred with the times ; a mode which had admitted of the
that it should contain the landed, the navy, the army, the
grossest abuses. The regulation of this was no innovation, but a
restoration
monied, and in short every interest; but it did not at pre-
of the constitution. There was indeed, nothing in the '
sent; and the city for which he had the honour to sit Nos
ill which did not meet his fullest approbation. It was calculated
e a
so little represented, that the county in which it stood, al-
number of very useful laws, which, from the relaxation
of m
hra: almost
though it contained one-eighth part of the whole number of
become obsolete. He was replied to by
electors of Great Britain, although it ,,ax, one-sixth part of
mori..a Secretar
e
y Fox, who, after paying every compliment to
the land-tax, and a full third of all other taxes, yet it had
the Preceding speaker, contested all his arguments with his
F 3
Ada
70
BILL FOR PREVENTING BRIBERY, A.C.
[June 19•
CHANGE OP MINISTRY.
7
/782•]
usual ability and address. He denied, that the principle of
the bill had been fairly stated by his honourable friend. He
wished by no means to countenance a measure which should
D EATH OF THE MARQUIS OP ROCKINGHAM. — RESIGNATION
carry on the face of it a sort of discordance, or at least a dis-
OF MR. Fox. — CHANGE OP MINISTRY.
similarity of sentiment between candidates and voters. He
was for cultivating the connection between the elector and
July 9.
elected, by all possible expedients. It was by intimacy, that
character, virtue, property well occupied, had 'their natural
IIILST parliament was successfully engaged in prosecuting
flu.nce. Why should they endeavour to circumscribe the very
Wv the most effectual measures for the security of its own inde-
few privileges the electors of Great Britain retained? Was
pendenc e, for healing the breaches of the constitution, and reliev-
ing the burdens of the people, a heavy calamity was approaching,
it not their business to-give them every assistance for extending
which again darkened the prospect that had so happily opened to
their franchises? And nothing could possibly enhance the
the nation. This was the loss of the Marquis of Rockingham ;
natural independence of Fnglish electors, more than upon an
whose health had been for some time gradually declining, and at
occasion of elections, obliging their friends, or preferring
length sunk under the increasing weight of public cares and busi-
to the highest honour of the country those who, in their
ness. The first step taken by the Court after his death, which
opinion, seemed most deserving of it. Mr. Fox said he was
happened on the 1st of July, was the appointment of the Earl of
not fund of recurring to those times when representatives were
Shelburne to be his successor in the treasury. Lord John Caven-
paid for their trouble by those they represented. This circurn-s
dish and Mr. Fox soon afterwards resigned their offices, and were
resigned
Mr. Montagu and Lord
stance sounded very high with some people
followed by the Duke of Portland ;
now. But whence
Althorpe, from the board of treasury ; by Lord Duncannon and
did it arise ? This house was then of little or no weight, in
Mr. J. Townshend from the admiralty ;- by Mr. Burke, and by
the government of the country. And those arguments which
Mr. Lee the Solicitor-General. Mr. William Pitt was made
referred to such ancient usages could be of no more use, than
chancellor of the Exchequer ; Mr. T. Townshend and Lord Gran-
to put the House of Commons in mind of its ancient insignifi-
tham, secretaries of state ; Mr. Pepper Arden succeeded Mr. Lee ;
cance. lie said that nothing that could injure the cause of
the Lord Advocate of Scotland succeeded Mr. Barre, who was
the people, had any support to expect from him ; and when-
removed to the pay-office ; and Earl Temple was appointed to
ever the honourable gentleman came forward with his ideas,
the lord-lieutenantcy of Ireland. The secession of such a weight
of an equal representation, he, might depend on his warmest
of talents and integrity from the service of government, could not
be regarded with indifference. The motives which were supposed
concurrence, and firm support. This was a point in which
to have actuated them, were variously represented ; and some
they could never disagree. On the present bill, however, their
insinuations being thrown out, highly injurious to the public
opinions did not meet, and he had stated with great deference
character of the persons concerned, the first opportunity was
those reasons which made him differ from him.
taken of bringing the subject to an open discussion in the House
of Commons. Accordinglyhe gth of July, a debate having
y, on
The question being put, the House divided :
arisen on a motion relative to the pension of 3 0001. a-year granted
Tellers.
Tellers.
to Colonel Barre, the divisions that had prevailed amongst his
YEAS Lord Mahon6o.
Mr. Plumes 1 „
majesty's servants were strongly retorted on those who had formed
Mr. Cocks
OES
N / Mr. Sheridan i "'
the last, by Mr. Bamber Gascoyne, a member of the old admini-
So it was resolved in the affirmative : but on the z 1st, the bill
stration ; and this discord was alleged to be the more culpable at
being recommitted, several clauses containing the pith and marrow
present, on account of the very critical and alarming situation of
of it, being thrown out, Lord Mahon begged leave to withdraw
affairs. Upon this occasion,
the bill ; welch was accordingly granted.
Mr. Fox rose. He said, that he had the honour to be
one of his majesty's confidential servants when that grant,
which was now the object of debate, was agreed to ; and
although he was not the person in whose department it lay
to advise the King on the subject, still he held himself as
responsible to parliament for the advice that was given. He
the pensionas a payment for services most honour-
ably performed; and he by no means, on the maturest
4
7
2
CHANGE OF MINISTRY.
[Jely9„
CHANGE OF MINISTRY.
1782.]
73
beration, thought that, all the circumstances considered, it:
blamed the last ministry for having the meanness to continue
was either a lavish or a misapplied grant. Having gieen4
when they found themselves divided ; and to hold the
to act,
honourable testimony to the character of Colonel Barre, and
reins of government, when they saw that there was no con-
to his merits, as well as to the integrity of the noble Marquis,
cert nor unanimity among themselves. He blamed the
who, by being at the head of the Treasury, was immediately
Lord in the blue ribbon 'for having remained in
nobl
concerned in the grant now in the consideration of the House,
p lace, responsible for measures of which he had not cordially
he said, that at the same time that they acknowledged the
approved, and when he found himself at the head of distracted
justice of the present grant, and of another which had been
councils.
alluded to in that House, the pension granted to Lord Ash-
He blamed him for continuing in power under such cir-
burton, it was peculiarly honourable to the friends and con-
cumstances, and having done this, having charged him' with
nections of the deceased Marquis, that all the acts of his
(mitt for having continued in such a situation, what was
administration, which had ever been complained of in that
left for him, when he found himself in a similar situation ?
House, had ever given rise to a motion, or had ever been
Most undoubtedly to retire, when he found himself in a
alluded to in a speech, were acts of friendship to men with
cabinet divided upon points which he considered of the
whom he had little or no connection; with whom he had no
utmost importance. -Without treachery to his country, he
remarkable coincidence of sentiment ; men who were not
could not remain in power when such opinions were held,
attached to him in any shape whatever ; but who were distin-
and such a system was to be begun, as he considered to be
guished by their intimacy and connection with another noble
dangerous, if not fatal. He retired, therefore, to prevent
person, who made a part of that administration, and Who now
disunion, to prevent the distraction which he conceived to
was to be the head of the new one. The only jobs in which
be so ruinous, and by so doing he had at least preserved to
the Rockingham administration were concerned, were jobs
himself the consolation of
e"
reflectine., that
diet he had not -
for two men, neither friendly to their persons nor principles.
mained in power longer than the system upon which they
An honourable gentleman had said, that the grant was un-
came in continued to be pursued. He considered it as honour-
wise, impolitic, and lavish, and that it was peculiarly so, in
able to the party with which he had the happiness to act, that
coming ftom men who had so loudly talked of reform, and
they had not been the hunters of pensions, and of emoluments ;
of the necessity of public economy. To all this he could
and that though it might be a proof of wisdom in some men
only say, that the pension now bestowed, was a thing, in fact,
to secure profit and emolument to themselves, it was a point
contributing to public reform,. for it was a reward, bestowed
of wisdom with which they were particularly unacquainted;
on a man, who had most nobly pursued the object of public
but there were men so wise in their generation, that they had
reform, but who had certainly not been singular in that im-
always taken care to look forward to profit, and were like-
portant matter, as it had come from an honourable gentle-
wise careful to secure to themselves this profit, by the labours
man who sat behind him (Mr. Burke). To reward the
of others.
'labours of men who had the good of the public in view,
He thought himself bound to answer to his country for his
was always politic, and could not he stigmatized with the
conduct in having withdrawn himself from a cabinet which
character which was due to the lavish and improvident acts
had been formed by the firmness and opinion of the country
of the late ministry. It was however to be observed by that
at so critical and alarmine. a1 He must, therefore, saw,
polio( .
House, and to be remembered by the people, that the only
that when he went into that cabinet, he considered himself
favours which had been conferred, and the only defalcations
as pledged to his country for the system to be pursued. He
from that principle which had taken place during the short
was in that particular situation which demanded from him
ministry of the Marquis of Rockingham, had all been in favour
the most explicit, fair, and direct proceeding; it was his
of that person and his friends who were now to form the ad-
disposition so to act; in the discharge of his duty to his king
. ministration of this country.
and country, he was anxiously solicitous that the principles
But a right honourable gentleman had particularly alluded
upon which they came in should be most religiously anti im-
b
to the present circumstances of the ministry, and to the
plicitly observed. What, then, could he do, when to his plain
division which had lately taken place: he had said that they
and evident conviction those principles were departed from by
resembled their predecessors in being disunited, and divided
Some of those Ministers ? It was his immediate duty to retire
in their counsel. To this he must answer, that he had
fro— a situation,
ituation, in which he could no longer act with
CHANGE OF MINISTRY.
74
CHANGE OF MINISTRY.
Play 9.
1782.]
75
honour to himself; as he could no longer act with service to
and when the principle was abandoned, he felt it to
chanted,
his country. When he saw that there was no prospect of
indispen sably necessary that he should come forward and
those principles being any longer pursued, upon -which the
alarum bell, and tell this country that the principle on
administration had been framed ; when he was farther con.
deliberation, formed this administra-
ilbeiTclt
ilie'liaey had, with due
firmed in his opinion, by seeing that his immediate friend
abandoned, and that the old system was to be re -
s
wassa
were equally alarmed, and saw with the same eyes, he felt it
ti;
s
I'd,
t probably
with the old men, or indeed with any
to be his immediate duty to retire from his post ; to leave
could
abied fofu 11
men
those persons, who thus chose to abandon principles, and
been said
him, and he must answer to the charge,
It tha
on the most important point of all the points which gave
that
at he had
out . upon pique,
dthat
was
contest
rise to their ministry, chose to deviate into new grounds,
places and power.
power
This he denied.. They
ey haad taken
about
to their new system ; and that he ought instantly to come
a strange method of showing their fondness for emolument, by
forward and to declare the suspicions which he entertained,
suffering all the favours and grants, all the pensions and gifts,
and to warn that House against the system which was to be
to go in favour of those who were now to be the ministers.
revived.
But it was a ridiculous charge, and he was happy to know
He declared, that he, for himself, felt it to be his peculiar
that men of the most respectable characters, who were them-
duty to observe the conduct of the men who were appointed to
selves in the secrets of the cabinet, and who were possessed of
fill the offices of government; for having to answer to that
the purest and most inflexible principles of integrity, approved
House for the exact system which they had pointed out in the
of this conduct, and agreed with him in thinking that they
formation of the ministry, of which he made one, and having
could not, and ought not, to have any farther confidence in
declared that he should certainly depart from that cabinet,
those men, who were now to direct the councils of this country.
whenever that cabinet should depart from the system, he did
He had no enmity against those persons, he had no personal
now think it his duty to come forward, and to declare that he
nor private enmity to them, but undoubtedly their conduct
had left his situation, and had resigned, because he believed
was reproachable and blameable in his opinion to a very high
the day was come when the system was to be abandoned, when
degree. They were men of that magnanimity of mind which.
new opinions and a new system were to be formed, or rather
was superior to the common feelings of humanity, for they
when an old one was to be revived. He said that he could
thought nothing of promises which they had made ; of engage-
not, and he must not, for obvious reasons, enter into a detail
ments into which they had entered; of principles which they had
of the matters which had given rise to this difference between
maintained ; of the system on which they had set out. They
himself and others who had retired, and those who remained
were men whom neither promises could bind, nor principles of
in the councils of the King; he could only say, that there were
honour could secure; they would abandon fifty principles for
several points on which they had most materially differed, and
the lon
sake of power, and forget fifty promises, when they were
after which he should have considered himself as guilty of
ger necessar y
no
to
ends. He had no doubt, but that
to
the most direct treachery to his country, if he had continued
secure themselves in the power which they had by the labour
any longer to hold out his name and support to an administra-
of others obtained, they would . now strive to strengthen them-
tion, which was not pursuing the line chalked out for them by
selves by any means which corruption could procure; and he
that House, and by the people of England. His situation was
to see that, in a very short time, they would be joined
so peculiar in that House, that he should have been particularly
by
by those men, whom that House had precipitated from their
seats.
unpardonable, if he had been mean enough to submit to con-
tinue in a situation which he could not hold for the service of
For his own part, he was free to confess, that he had not
his country. For it was to him in particular that that House
quitted his seat without a pang. He was not insensible to
t
would look, as from his situation lie had to come down with
hose distinctionswhich.
ons
it gave him. He was neither inca-
the measures of the cabinet; and being given to understand
pable of vanity nor of ambition ; he had the vanity to be pleased
with l
that he was looked to, from the promises v-hich he had made,
the applause of the good and virtuous, and he had the
a
and told by persons, whom all men must respect, that they
mbition to b
0 be serviceabl e to his country. But there were
consider t'
should consider his continuance in office as a proof that the
a ions superior both to his vanity and his ambition,
the c
th
on ..
principle was rightly pursued, and that they should expect hint
0
deratiwhich
sions of duty and conscience; the duty w
he
wed to that H
to come forward and give the signal when the system Was
a House and to his country of warning them of the
76
CHANGE 01' MINISTRY.
77
CHANGE OF MINISTRY.
[July 9:
1782.]
danger which he saw approaching, and the conscience of re_
virtuous
and incomparable person, now no more, had been in
t)
the degree departed from. To shcw that this was the case, it
fleeting that he had discharged his obligations with fidelity
any
L.,
would be proper that he should state what were the principles on
and firmness ; and that if his country was to be ruined by a
which they did set out. First then, it was the principle on which
renewal of that system which it had been the labour of years
Y set
they
out " That they should oiler to America unlimited, un-
'
to demolish, he had at least the consolation of reflecting, that
conditional independence, as the basis of a negociation for peace."
it was not owing to, him. Moved by these considerations he
The House would give him credit for saying, that lie had for years
had, though in circumstances, in point of fortune, by no means
held it as his opinion, that this was the thing to which we were ap-
chin but, that he had always declared it to be a great.evil
enviable, relinquished the pomp, the profits, and the patron-
proa
g ,
approaching, and that whenever it did come, it would come as an
age of office; he had left all this, which undoubtedly he could
evil. He was now brought to feel the necessity of granting this
not cease to regret, more perhaps, for the sake of others than of
independence, and this was the first great principle on which the
himself; but these were not the dearest of the sacrifices which
present administration had come into power, and had begun to act.
he had made; he had had the misfortune to lose for a time the
Had this principle been abandoned? He conceived not, and that
friends that were dearest to him upon earth, the men of all
the noble person who was now first lord of the treasury did not
others whom he loved and revered, because they were men of
differ about this principle. There might be some difference about
all others whom he conceived to have the purest hearts, and
the means by which the object was to be obtained. It was a dif-
the most upright intentions. They were lost only for a time,
ference. which however was very immaterial. The second prin-
ciple was, "that they should establish a system of economy in
he said, because he was convinced that the professions which
every department of government; and that they should adopt the
had been made to them, and the delusions which had been held
spirit, and carry into execution the provisions.of the bill of reform
out, though they had imposed upon them now, could not long
introduced into that House by Mr. Burke, and which was now ready
deceive them ; their sagacity would at last penetrate through the
for the crown to . pass." Was this principle abandoned, or had
disguise ofthose by whom this country was now to be governed,
there been any symptons whatever of there being a design to de-
and they would come over to his way of thinking, perhaps,
part from it ? The next principle was, that " they would annihilate
alter giving a sanction by their names to an administra-
every kind of influence over any part of the legislature." This also
tion that would more fatally undo the country than any that
was a principle which he assured the House the cabinet was seri-
ously inclined to carry into execution, and lie knew of no division
ever was formed, or suffered to exist in this laud. He must
whatever about it. Another principle was, : "that they should con-
content himself for the present with the conviction of his hav-
tinue to the kingdom of Ireland, and secure to it the freedom as
ing acted right, and with the determination of continuing to
now settled by parliament ; and to do this in the most unequivocal
do his duty, and to watch as a member of that House the
and decisive way." In all these principles, therefore, he conceived
measures of that ministry which he must, and always should
that there was no deviation, and no cause either of apprehension
distrust. From the experience that he had had, he might be
or of jealously ; and he was determined to continue in his place so
dispirited, yet being his duty, he would not shrink from it;
long as these principles were adhered to. These were the great
and he bad this confidence, that though this new system might'
principles upon which the administration was formed; the House
go on for days, weeks, months, or for years, it must, like the
could already pronounce how faithfully three of them had been ad-
:: sieprtieoeds oatioles;omoahsfetrisi
to the other, which related to America, time would
last, crumble into atoms, as all administrations and systems
convince them, that the cabinet were as determined to adhere to it
must do, which were not founded in publicity, in virtue, and
:
his part, lie thus proclaimed these to be his
in honour.
1:crituoci,pdeleipisiao; hitherto, he had every reason to say, they were the prin-
; but if ever it should be resolved in coun-
cil to
Mr. Fox was followed by General Conway, who, after lamenting
from any one of them, he would rest satisfied to be
the fatal event that had deprived the country of the benefit of the
rd
pronounced
ca it infamous
the most n famous of men, if he should continue to
splendid abilities of his right honourable friend, at a time when
talon. For
with. those men who should enter into such a reso-
I
•
their value and consequence were beginning to be felt, observed,
part he never would take a part in a scramble or
that he could not, however, concur in opinion with him,—that
quarrel for places, pensions, or for power ; he did not care who were
tttthitrree
there was such a disagreement in the cabinet as to justify him in
e rs of the cabinet, nor who enjoyed power, provided
withdrawing himself from it. When eleven ministers were assem-
the principles , which he had stated as. the fundamental points of
bled in council, it was impossible but that some shades of difference
administration, were strictly adhered to: be looked to
measuresonly,his
in opinion should exist ; but he denied that any of the fundamental
and not to men. He lamented as much as any man
principles, upon which that administration had been formed, by
of the noble Marquis, which had occasioned the late di-
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vision; but he saw no ground for apprehension that the successor
refore deceive those who should look upon his continuance
the
1 office as such a pledge, if he should consent to retain his
who had been given to him, -4 not steadily pursue the true in:
situation, while measures were pursuing which he thought
terests of his country ; that he would not strictly adhere to the great
leading principle relative to America, which he had stated to
hi aly injurious to the public interest? All that was great, all
the
House : the noble lord in question was not satisfied with bringing
that was good in the kingdom, had countenanced his retreat ;
himself to think favourably of American independence, to which
his noble friend (Lord John Cavendish) had resigned his em-
the change of affairs had made him a convert; he went farther, and
ployment. ; and the public would be naturally led to presume,
he had presuaded the king to think favourably of it also. He there.
that when such a character quitted the cabinet, no man of
fore was at a loss to discover the essential ground of difference in
character ought to remain in it. If the higher sense of duty
the cabinet, and the cause of that separation, and the loss of the
had not compelled him to resign, he had many very poweful
assistance of his right honourable friend, which no one could
inducements to keep him in the cabinet : he would not say
snore sincerely lament than he did.
that he was such a stoic as to wish rather to be neglected than
Mr. Fox expressed his hope that the House would excuse
courted ; to prefer poverty to riches, inconvenience to case, and
him, if he should rise a second time, to exculpate himself
obscurity to splendour and power ; but when power, emolu-
from so heavy a charge as that of having quitted the service
ment, celebrity, and ease, were to be acquired by a base de-
of the public without cause, mid ascribed a conduct or inten-
sertion of principle, an honest man could not hesitate a mo-
tion to the present cabinet which they had a right to disclaim.
ment what line of conduct he should pursue. But it was said
It seemed to have been insinuated by the right honourable
that he differed only upon shades; perhaps to Isis right honour-
general that disappointment in a contest for power, or for
able friend the difference, which to others appeared of the
place, had been the true cause of his retreat from the present
greatest magnitude, might appear only as a shade ; but to him
administration ; but he was happy to have it in his power to
this difference seemed of that consequence, as to be decisive
answer this charge effectually, by assuring the House, that he
of this great question, Whether we shall have peace or war ?
had in a full cabinet council, expressly declared, that if such
And it was not a little strange that the right honourable gen-
and such a measure should be adopted, he must necessarily re-
tleman, by whose vote in the cabinet the question was decided,
sign his employment : this declaration he had made before the
should have had so little penetration as not to discover, that
death of the noble marquis ; if he did not actually resign
the fate of the empire, and not a little shade of difference, de-
before that melancholy event took place, it was because he
petaled upon his vote. But it was the fate of his right honour-
would not accelerate it, or embitter the last moments of a
able friend to be the last to discover those things which struck
venerable friend, by taking a step, which he knew would give
ereileytr naitn.
aionalive; and experience ought to have sharpened his
him the greatest uneasiness:, but to prove that the probability
penetration.
of the death of that great and good man had no influence
In the- year 1766, when his right honourable friend had
whatever upon him in his resolution to resign, he said, that
voted for the repeal of the stamp-act, he never dreamt that
when there was every hope given by the faculty, that the noble
the idea of taxing America would revive; he had then the
`marquis was likely to recover, he bad on the very day
security of almost every man in the present cabinet; the pre-
these glad but delusive tidings had been brought to the cabinet,
sent Lord Shelburne was then secretary of state; the then
positively declared that be must retire, if such a particular
chancellor had signed a strong protest against taxing
measure should be adopted. He was out-voted in the council,
America the Duke of Grafton was at the head of the trea-
and that measure was adopted. He appealed to the right
sury: the characters of all those ministers were as pledge s
honourable general for the truth of this, and said, that as he
that the system of taxing America was at an end ; but so
looked upon that measure to be to the last degree dangerous to
greatly had his right honourable friend been deceived, that
this country, he owed it to himself and to his country not
in six months after the Marquis of Rockingham went out of
phleiaecne,vi
to remain any longer in a situation in which he could not
tshib
el right honourable general found himself a part of
an
continue to act, without renouncing his own principles, or
ath
demni,nitshtrealt.iociii determined to tax America ; then, and not
till
betraying his trust with •the public. He stood, as he had said,
in a delicate situation;- it had been often said, that while he
h
visible to every other person long before ; and thus had
himself and some other men should continue in office, it would
by his unsuspecting confidence, and his not regarding.
be looked upon as a pledge that nothing was going forward
shades of difference, contributed in a most essential degree to.
that could be injurious to the public interest: must he not
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the establishment of that system which in the end had ruined
what was now the opinion of the cabinet, but. be could
or well-nigh ruined the country. The right honourable ge:
the House that it Was not the opinion of the cabinet
neral had too much magnanimity of character, too much gee
hen he had made the determination to resign. But if it was
nerosity of mind, and too much complaisance to be is ,cor utphui:
rirrsis):,t,iiibitt opinion of the cabinet, he congratulated his country
Ions in his enquiries about the niceties and minutiaeof
on the consequences of his resignation ; for he had been able
the measures of those men with whom he acted.
to do more towards the deliverance of his country, by resign-
magnanimity and benevolence he, for his own part, confessed
than he was able to effect with all the force of
himself unequal : he could not repose confidence without in-
lien he remained in. It s p ewed him that - it was
vestigating character; and he looked to principles before he
japi:Oggssullitbnisleerpiftoes whe
him, in the present moment, to serve his count
n ,ry
trusted to words. Were he to look back to the series of
more in that House than in any other place. He was not to
events and causes that had so progressively brought this coma-
be reasoned out of his senses by his right honourable friend ;
try to its present state, he should trace the political liberality
for if it was now the intention of the cabinet, as he said, to
of the right honourable gentleman as the cause of almost all
grant independence to America, it was an intention very
the misfortunes that had been brought upon the country; so
lately adopted : he had never before .seen the papers from
that if he were to be asked who was the person who of all
which his right honourable friend had stated his four great
others had contributed the most to the misfortune of the
principles; and therefore he could not be answerable for their
American war? he should be tempted to say, the right ho-
contents ; but this much he could assure the House, that he
nourable general ; and if again he should be asked, who was
differed from the cabinet on this subject, because he found
the man with the most upright intentions, and who bad pur- 1
the majority of them averse to that idea of unconditional in-
measures with the most disinterested integrity ? he should
dependence to America, which he conceived it to be necessary
say with much pleasure, the right honourable general. And
to the .salvation of this country to have granted : if, since he
all this happened, because he did not attend to those shades
quitted his employment, his late colleagues had changed their
of difference which he thought immaterial, and which he said
opinion, he rejoiced at the event ; and would feel himself sa-
his understanding could not reach ! He said the right ho-
tisfied, if the sacrifice he had made to his principles should
nourable gentleman did now, what he did sixteen years ago
ultimately be serviceable to this country. The number of
with the best intentions; lie joined the same men without
eleven in a committee of council, he certainly thought too
thinking it necessary to examine their hearts; and he would,
great; and he was of opinion, that those ministers who hold
therefore, as he had before, quit them when he had disco-
great responsible situations, should have more interest in the
vered their rank intentions against their country. He said he
cabinet, than those members of it who attended merely to
had reason to believe that the right honourable gentleman
give counsel, but without bolding responsible situations.
might on this day differ in opinion, but he hardly believed
He was also unhappy to say, that there were other most
they would have differed about facts; the right honourable
material points in which he and others differed with the Earl
gentleman had read the creed of the cabinet ; he could only
of Shelburne. That noble person was inclined to screen from
say upon this, that he had heard this creed from him for the
Jfietniodelyand punnment those delinquents who had destroyed
first time. He never heard it in the cabinet from the Earl
our possessions in the East, and involved us in all the cala-
of Shelburne; and he would just take the liberty of going so
mities which that House,had so honourably endeavoured to
far as to say, that it was upon this very circumstance that the
remove. The right honourable general had said, that they
great difference of sentiment had occurred. That which the
Were also inclined to the system of economy, and to the
right honourable general had called shades of difference,
reduction of the influence of the crown, and particularly
which his. understanding could not reach, were differences
to the objects of Mr. Burke's bill. Did he not know,
about points, upon which, in his honest opinion, the salva-
and did not all men know, who had heard the noble person's
tion, or the ruin of this country depended. They were, in a
lo ud and specious speeches in Parliament, that he professed to
most peculiar manner, no less than upon the very principle
treat that bill with the utmost contempt, and called it trifling
and
which he had just mentioned, the independence of America.
insignificant? It was an :Mina, a pigmy, in comparison
It was said by the right honourable general, that it was die
Would
the pr mites of that noble lord, but he was convinced it
opinion of the cabinet to give full, unconditional, and unlimit-
be a giant in comparison of his performances. It was
ed independence to America. He could not take upon him to
thee talent of that noble lord to promise, and he had always
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promised much more than the noble marquis, Who Nuvatst:eli,
en:
any resemblance to his predecessor ; perhaps the ex-
no more ; the noble marquis promised little, because he r
lalce b
tlVel
reverse come nearer to the picture. Perhaps it
giously performed every promise that he made. B
might be asked, why, thinking as lie did of the Earl of Shel-
was an extravagance and profusion in the manner in which
burne, he came with him into office at all ? To this he must
the other noble person made his promises, and ,11, magnani,
answer, that he had strong objections to it, and both with
mitt' in the manner in which he broke them.
respect to him, and to another noble person, (the Lord Chan-
And this brought him to state another reason for his re-
cellor,) the only thing that could make him submit to associate
tiring; and that was the appointment of the Earl of Shelburne
with them in office, was the satisfactory pledge which he bad
to the office of first lord of the treasury : the patronage of
for the integrity of the administration, of which he made a
-that place was undoubtedly great; and whoever filled it must
part, in the noble marquis being at the head of it.
have power; much more power than any other member of the
The country had now an administration, which could not
cabinet. Now, it was but just and fair, that those who went
he that popular administration to which his honourable friend
into office, upon certain public principles, should be satisfied
had alluded; it was now the administration of a man who
that none were introduced into the cabinet, who were hostile
could not think of reformation with temper, however loudly
to those principles; and they either should have a right to re-
he might speak about it ; a man who would declare, that the
tire, or to have a voice in the appointment of all persons who
influence of the crown ought to be diminished, but who
should be nominated to fill those vacancies that might hap-
would, at the same time, say, that the king had a right to use
pen : when that power was taken from them, their power
his negative in passing laws, and would threaten with the ex-
was at an end ; and if the king had a right to nominate his
ercise of that negative all those who should attempt to move
ministers, his counsellors had a right to retire, whenever they
any bills that went to retrenchment. Such was the man now
thought fit : privilege in the one case was opposed to prero-
at the head of the Treasury ; the principles of the late mini-
gative in the other : but there was no question of right in the
stry were now in the cabinet; and the next thing he should
business; the right was not to be disputed on either side; but
look for, would be to see the late ministers themselves again
the moment he was called upon for reasons for having quitted
in office. But perhaps he would be said to be too apprehen-
his employment, that moment it was pronounced to be a mat-
sive, and that his suspicions were vague; probably they were
ter in which expediency, not right, was involved ; to be ac-
so: it would, however, be acknowledged to him, that think-
cused in this case, amounted to a justification of the principle;
ing conscientiously that he saw such danger, it was fit for him
a minister was to exercise his right to retire, whenever it
to come forward and to warn his country in dine. He did so.
should appear to him that he ought to do it. He had been
He and a few friends retired to a strong hold, into which he
since told, that his objections might have been removed,
doubted not to see all .his old friends and companions come
without any separation or division in the cabinet ; this he
one after another, some sooner and some later in the day, but
might have thought probable, if those persons, upon whom
all lamenting that they did not come with him.
he could most depend, had remained in the council after him;
but when he found they also had retired, then he confessed
General Conway said he took all the strictures on his abilities
that the very steps taken to convince him, that his objections
and conduct, such as they were, which came from the honourable
might have been removed without a division, had tended only
gentleman in good part. He re gretted the loss of the assistance
to alarm him more. One would naturally imagine, in an ad-
and countenance of his late friends with great sincerity. But their
ministration formed on the principles of the men distinguished.
resignation on this occasion he could not help censuring as inimi-
by the name of the Rockinghams, that upon the decease ol
cal to the prosperity of those measures in which this country was
at Present so
that great man, whose virtues, whose nobleness of thinkIng,
fatally and deeply engaged. The honourable gen-
tleman, he said, was incapable of misunderstanding or misrepre-
and whose firm integrity bound them together, the man wbuld
senting what fell from him, yet certainly lie had stated fairly and
be sought and appointed to succeed him, who most resembled
distinctly the great and leading objects for the accomplishment of
him in character, in influence, in popularity— such at least
which the administration under the late Marquis of Rockingham
were his ideas—and the eves of all men were naturally tiu•ned
was formed. And these objects, he affirmed, were still the avowed
„to the Duke of Portland. Instead of that noble person, how-
and invariable objects of the present. He might be mistaken, or
mi
ever, the Earl of Shelburne was selected, of whom, if I re
sled, or deceived, as the best and wisest of men often were.
But
meant to describe the character, he could not truly say that
he was sure his intentions were honourable, as they had al-
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1782.]
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ways been undisguised. His head, or his judgment might err, as
purpose, by saying, that if the well-wishers to their country
he was sensible of its weakness in a thousand instances ; but he
leis retire, it would make it absolutely necessary for ministry to
would boldly, publicly, and on all occasions, answer for his heart.
*ply to those very persons for support, who had been driven out
He might not have expressed himself so clearly, accurately, or
guardedly, perhaps, but he was not conscious of qualifying, much
less of altering any of his well-known sentiments on these topics.
That independence to the thirteen states of North America was to
bY
Fox said, a few things had just fallen from the right
be the basis of all our negotiations with them : that they were to
honourable gentleman, which he could not pass unnoticed.
be treated as independent in the very mode of carrying on these
To the political creed which had been read before the House,
negotiations that a large and substantial reform in every branch
with so much solemnity, he was no party. It was, as he bad
of the public expenditure ; and that the undue influence-of the
said, a paper he had never till then either seen or heard.
crown in this House was to be circumscribed—were certainly the
The subject of it was certainly not unknown to him, though
ground-work or public principles on which the new arrangement,
the terms in general were. This was a system digested by
as well as the preceding one, was avowedly established. It was
himself, and now held out to the public as adopted by his
on this conviction, and this alone, he pledged himself to give it all
majesty's council. It was now a week since he had the ho-
the support and assistance he could. The moment the least symp.
nour to be one of the number. A general conversion might
toni of departing from these struck him, he would undosubtedly
follow his honourable friend's example. He would not think his
have been lately wrought on them. They were not, he as-
honour or his conscience safe in deviating from this broad and
serted, agreed on any such system while he knew them. To
beaten ground of polities in the least. He was obliged to the ho.
bring them unanimously to some such specific and decisive
nourable gentleman for his kind and very flattering opinion ; but
p
point, he had laboured ardently and assiduously, both indi-
he did not think himself altogether liable to the censure implied
vidually and collectively considered, but all to no purpose.
in the compliment, so handsomely paid him. He was for public
What was an honest man to do, who found himself situated
measures, not men. While the former were pure, and meant for
as he was? He had avowed principles in this place to his
the public advantage, it was indifferent to him who had the power.
friends, to his constituents, to the nation at large, with which
He had no object but one. He trusted his actions were guided
solely and always by the public good: and whoever accorded with
he deemed their existence, as a great and a respectable state,
him in facilitating this great end, was entitled, in his opinion, by
inseparable. Was it ever conceived or expected, that ha
every possible claim to his countenance. For the merits of the
could continue in a responsible department of state, and be
late first lord of the Treasury he had the most serious esteem.
answerable in his place to this House, for those that were
His per oval and social qualities and accomplishments were as va-
foreign to his heart, and in his opinion hostile to the best in-
luable rid exemplary as they were uniform and rare. But why
terests of the empire? He trusted, the public, and all who
degrade the living, by an ill-timed compliment to the dead? The
knew his habits of thinking and acting, hind a better opinion
Earl of Shelburne was not the less respectable because his prede-
both of his understanding and his heart. It was in fact a con-
cessor was a man of uncommon worth. No ; there was an instance
duct to which he was not equal. His right honourable friend
of merit in the Earl of Shelburne that it was but justice to mention
to the House. His lordship, so far from renewing the old ex-
was indifferent who were the men, while the measures were
ploded politics, had been able, as he had said, to convince his
unquestionably
tior,
nably good. What was this but trusting every thing
al
royal master, that a declaration of American independence was,
random, and depending on events to justify a manifest
from the situation of the country, and the necessity of the case,
treachery to the cause we have espoused. The right honour-
the wisest and most expedient measure that government from the
able gentleman was welcome in this, as in every other case, to
pressure of present circumstances could possibly adopt. This he
Judge for himself, but he should not judge for him. He
observed was a satisfactory reason to his mind that nothing less
would relinquish his own judgment, especially in matters
than :.tich a measure in its utmost latitude was certainly meant by
which he had so often and carefully revolved in his mind, to
the cabinet. And while he had this confidence in the integrity
anv,
he had not the fullest and most unbounded con-
and candour of ministry, sorry as he was to differ from his ho-
nourable friend, the duty he owed to his country, to his king, nod
umstanced. was notin his power, as things were at present
Circ
to his constituents, made it impossible for him to do otherwise.
le person presiding at the treasury-board
His honourable friend had alluded to the year 1766; but in men-
was not of a description to command that faith, which in
tioning the names of the cabinet ministers of that period,
such
he had
a predicament was wanted, was indispensable. This
forgot that of the Earl of Chatham;
breach ,
• when he acquainted that great
on a public,. not on a personal or narrow ground.
minister with his intention of resigning, he had dissuaded him fro"'
s mind might see things on a less broad and comprehen.
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1782-]
sive scale than the right honourable gentleman, but he was
thee were altogether out of the question, it was hardly treating
answerable only for his own feelings and convictions. These
his'collea gues in office with due respect, to give Lord Shel-
might incline him to be less credulous, and fill him with more
bo •ne the sole merit of what surely belonged to them as much
jealousies than his right honourable friend was liable to enter-
to him. Indeed, it' any individual had more merit than
tain. But he did not pretend either to censure or defend the
another, in a business so much and jointly the object of all, it
constitution of his mind. It was enough for him that his con-
was no doubt the right honourable gentleman himself. What
science did not upbraid him with acting dishonourably or dis-
was the purport of the motion he brought into this House,
ingenuously. But he would say this must have been the case,
Ind by which the late administration was certainly annihilated?
had he not done what he did. He was impelled to take this
If it had any meaning, it went to the full and unconditional
step by every consideration that could operate on the heart and
independence of North America. He would :not think so dis-
feelings of an honest man. The right honourable gentleman
respectfully of his royal master, whose service he had so lately
might, but he could not regard, without emotion or concern,
resigned, as once to suppose he could have ,a different idea
who took the lead in his majesty's councils. He deemed it
from his people, on a subject so dear to their hearts, and es-
a great and national object, and consequently of infinite mo-
sential to their interests. He knew the justice, the discern-
ment to every individual, but much more to a member of
ment, the gentleness, and the mercy of the royal character
parliament; and still more so to one of his majesty's cabinet
better than to suppose he could dissent from the general opi-.
ministers. Their honour, their duty, and every thing clear
nion of the nation, on a point concerning which their senti-
to them was at stake. What ! had he and his friends labour-
ments had been delivered in so decided a mariner. But why
ed so long and assiduously to destroy a system, which it was
was not he, why was not the right honourable gentleman
now meanly, but abortively, attempted to make them acces-
himself brought fbrward, as using all their influence to carry
sary in reviving? and must not they see the trick that was
a point which seemed a 'favourite one with them all? Was it
meant to be played on them without blame? Were they cen-
not that the noble lord in question was alone suspected of
surable for detecting an artifice with which the strength and
having less friendly ideas on this topic, than any of his nume-
glory of Great Britain was most immediately connected? Why
rous colleagues in office ? He did not wish to bear hard on the
were not the right honourable gentleman and his worthy co-
right honourable gentleman, whom he had long regarded with
adjutors satisfied of their own integrity, in keeping their
sentiments of the hinlmst respect. But now that he had been
places, without blaming those who relinquish them ? Was
somewhat in voluntarily put on his own defence it was natural,
not their eagerness for an explanation a certain indication
it was necessary in his case to state his conduct ashe had
that all was not right with them, even in their own opinion?
stated it. A variety of things were against him. It was none
He and his friends had nothing to dread from the severest
of the least that he did not think himself at liberty to speak
scrutiny. Tbey had acted right, because they had acted from
h
, he had accustomed himself to do on
fidelity to their engagements with the public, whom they
other occasions. Official details would in this case be deemed
never had, and never would betray ; whose cause or interest
both tedious and improper. And yet without a very circum-
they preferred to every thing, and for which they had now
tssa
stitiflelltei.,:tollY.c.glaeilt:; ,fuslul: a
such as he did not think it became him at this
sacrificed whatever was most flattering to most minds. 11e
ise bave been.le was sensible his defence would not be so
would not pay his majesty so-poor a compliment as the right
so complete, or so generally effective as it might other-
honourable gentleman certainly did, by asserting, that the
w
i
Earl of Shelburne had convinced or persuaded his majesty,
that the independence of America was now a measure that
on
1 Lwh
orih
Lordd John Cavendish stated his reasons for quitting the post of
Cha
must be adopted. It was from this House, it was from the
ncellor of the Exchequer, which, he said, were briefly, that
hearms.
people at large, it was from the royal observation on the daily
a different system was meant to be pursued, than the one
occurrences of things, that any such generous and princely
the change of ministry was formed, and likewise find-
,ng that it was impossible
ideas were indulged in the royal breast. He therefore deemed
by any presence of his to prevent it, lie
'a,(1.' determined to withdraw himself, that he might not divide the
it, if not unfair, at least a poor compliment to this House, and
to the public, to attribute that to the address of an individual
n:"ef, and render it a scene of confusion, as it was in. the time of
'ate ministry ; for he always should be of opinion, that a eabi-
which certainly originated in the sentiments and resolutions')
"ut unan imous in itself, although their measures might not be so
so unanimously and boldly avowed by themselves. T1101413
G 4
12
88
CHANGE OF MINISTRY.
[Arne 9.
CHANGE OF MINISTRY.
89
/782.]
good as could be wished, was much better for the country than a
here, and the esteem and veneration of the people of Ireland.
cabinet that was divided. He was of the same opinion as Mr. Pox
Pie-
fie was the person whose great talents and connections would have
that he could be of infinitely more service to his country by'
given weight to his majesty's councils, and hoen a means of bring,
being out of office, than by'being in ; for it appeared that measure's
rng about that object so much wished for, a general, lasting, and
would be consented to in his absence, that no argument he coald
honourable peace ; but from the turn things had taken, he was
make use of when present would effect.—Mr. Burke supported I n
fearful that all the good that had been effected by displacing the
Ir.
Fox. On his rising there was an uncommon confusion- at the bar.
late ministry, who so n igh wrought the ruin of their country, would
He directed his eye to that quarter, and with considerable emotion
be frustrated ; and if it should cause a twenty years' siege, as his
said, he was peculiarly circumstanced from the delicacy which he
honourable friend had talked of, to displace these men, he was of
had for one part of the House, while he felt nothing but the most
opinion that few persons would have . courage to undertake it.
sovereign contempt for the other. This to him appeared an hour,
The noble marquis, he said, had uniformly, through life, enter-
though a late one, of the greatest consequence. He was called
tained one opinion ; but that was not the case with the noble earl
by a variety of circumstances to vindicate his character and prin-
that was to succeed him. He was a. man that he could by no
ciples to the public. Those, who by the present unaccountable
means confide - in, and he called heaven and earth to witness, so
tumult seemed dissatisfied with his private character, knew where
help him God! that he verily believed the present ministry would
to find him. But he was not to be intimidated by these little un-
be fifty times worse than that of the noble lord, who lately had
manly and dirty artifices, from coming forward and accounting,
been reprobated and removed. He begged leave to make a few
with much simplicity and truth, for his short stewardship, to that
remarks upon what he could not help considering as very extra-
public, whose servant he had ever been. About the question re-
ordinary doctrine, which a right honourable general had been
lating to the pension meant for an honourable gentleman, he had
pleased to lay down under the idea of candour ; and I hope, said
but little to say. With respect to this particular pensioner, he
Mr. Burke, it will not be considered to be impertinent, as it seems
knew that the noble marquis thought himself bound for it, as he
to glance at impropriety, or (if the House pleases) a want of can-
had, in the year 1766, left out the honourable colonel by mistake,
dour in me and in my friends. Candour, if I understand the true
from a list of promotions. Among all the encomiums made on the
meaning of the word, is an impartial view of whatever the mind
character of the noble marquis lately deceased, this was one, that
contemplates ; let us apply this definition to the right honourable
he le fl his dearest and best friends with the simple reward of his
general's apology for his conduct. He tells you, that he has seen
own invaluable intimacy. This singular test of their sincerity he
nothing improper hi the demeanour of Lord Shelburne under the
asked while alive, add it was a tax he left on their regard for his
Rockingham administration ; he will therefore try him as a pre-
memory when dead. He, for his own part, had not been without-
mier. Is this an impartial view ? No, no —surely it is not. To
his share of the one, and he would soon convince the world, he was
be candid, we must take to mind, the whole of that nobleman's
not unequal to the other. Well might he be excused for mingling
politics ever since he had affected to be a statesman. In the late
his tears with those of all descriptions and ranks of men, for the
premiership he was controuled. In former administrations, when
inestimable loss of this most excellent and most virtuous character!
he could indulge his opinions, he did indulge them : and now that
He was gone, he said, to that tribunal, where we all must go and
he is minister, lie will give scope to them with a vengeance. Mr.
render an account of our transactions, and he trusted, that no
Burke trusted some credit would. be given him on the present
soul ever went with a greater certainty of its actions being ap-
sent office. His domestic sensibility had never been doubted. I-le
proved. On the ,late change of ministry, the people, he said,
had a pretty large family and but little fortune. He liked his pre-
looked up to the Marquis of Rockingham as the only person who
The House and all its appendage* to a man of his
must be at the head of affairs, as the clearness of his head, and
taste, could not be disagreeable. All this -he relinquished not,
tach
the purity of his heart, made him universally beloved. It
lalepat lIblIilose
was to
use might well conceive, without regret ; for the welfare
him that the public looked for every thing ; they knew govern-
of bdisid fitaaiininvillsly Was very dear to itim. No man could conceive him
ment was safe in his hands, as he would not lend his name to,any
c‘owld
noatftf circumstances as his certainly were, to sacrifice
thing that was detrimental to his country. But as fate had so
our thousand pounds per an
nothing?
for nothi g 2 No;
°lie
•
ordained it, as to take that great and virtuous statesman from us,
or that country and that public whose property he
Was,
the first step his maj,:sty's ministers should have done, was to seek
, and to whom lie was always ready to surrender whatever he
most
soot ti
out some person the most like him in sentiment and integrity;
vgalued in life. He had been long surfeited with opposition.
Those who
but unfortunately for the country, it had turned out just the re-
were
ere familiar with his habits of living, with his man-
hers
verse ; they had pitched on a man, of' all others, the most unlike
and temper,
cause his heart would not call him petulant or factious. What;
then,
to him. It was proposed, he said, to have appointed the Duke
induce him to leave an administration to the forma-
of Portland in the room of the noble marquis, as he was a p erson
of which his humble endeavours had somewhat contributed?
whose abilities and integrity had gained him the love of the pecfr
lie protested, but the sincerest regard for a public, in the
, erv
be ice of which lie wished to live and die. He was not satisfied,
heart would not let him confide where his duty and
90
CHANGE OF MINISTRY.
[June 9
CHANGE Or MINISTRY.
,
91
82.3
situation made it necessary that he should. The right bonourahn,
He professed himself a determined enemy to the late
'
general's feelings were in this respect exceedingly convenient.
P' ;no us system of affairs, and pledged himself, that whenever he
ri
He took every man by his looks; this might be very good-natured
bind
things going on wrong, he would first endeavour to
see
sl
but it was not very wise. He had read when young, of a wolf
t them right, and II he was not successful, then resign, but not
SE
which was mistook by a simple shepherdess, because dressed like
fore.
bi
her grandmother, for• one quite as gentle and tame as she was:
But the first opportunity undeceived the poor girl. Take care
Fox rose to explain, that so far from its being a strug-
that none of you render yourselves obnoxious to a similar dill-
e
power, he had absolutely determined upon resigning
for
cule. But, perhaps his worthy friend might despise this lesson,
ous to the death of the marquis, and had communicated
because it was drawn from a little book. He would therefore
previ sentiments to a noble duke ; he had likewise called
touch upon an idea borrowed from a book of more authority. He
those
a council, to take their sense upon the subject, and
would ask the gentleman, whether if he had lived in the time of
to ether
g
the immortal Cicero, he would have taken Cataline upon trial,
had well weighed the matter before he put it in execution;
IT C
for his colleague in the consulship, after he had heard his guilt
for he was aware, that as the public eye was upon him, they
so clearly demonstrated by that great orator? Would he be co-
would look up to him, and expect good and sufficient grounds
partner with Borgia in his schemes, after he had read of his ac-
his conduct; he trusted it was in his power to give them
for
cursed principles in Machiavel ? He could answer for him, he
these rounds; and no man would blame him for quitting a
?.)
knew he would not. Why, then, did he adhere to the present man?
g
council in which he must have been a mere puppet, for he
He meant no offence, but he would speak an honest mind. If
Lord Shelburne was not a Cataline, or a Borgia, in morals, it
could as well tell how every measure would be carried the
moment he knew the mover, as lie could formerly tell how
must not be ascribed to any thing but his understanding.
gentlemen would vote on grand political questions in that
William Pitt said, he should think himself criminal if he were not
to speak on the present subject, as, in his opinion, it was of the
House. Was such a cabinet a fit one for him to remain in ?
most serious consequence to the nation. The late right honour-
Could he submit to be responsible for-measures of which he
able secretary (Mr. Fox ), was looked up to by the people as the
disapproved, and lend his name to a system in which lie had
ostensible man in that House, and therefore was to be considered
no share? With respect to the fear of letting in the old ad-
as public property ; as such, he should consider him, and, there-
ministration, there was none, he said, for that House would
fore, had a right to question him on his conduct, in resigning an
not suffer it; the people of England would not suffer it; in-
important station, when the nature of aflizirs demanded the assist-
deed no man, he believed, would attempt it. The House,
ance of his great abilities. The right honourable gentleman had
lie hoped, would do him the justice to think, that it must be
declared, that it was to prevent dissections in the cabinet that
some very great, some- very material differences in politics
he had retired, as he found there was a material difference on
some grand political questions. He believed the right honourable
that could make hint give up the place he had the honour
secretary, on account of his having solemnly declared it, but had
to fill, a place which was not only lucrative, but powerful:
he not, he should have attributed the resignation to a baulk in
struggling for power. It was, in his opinion, a dislike to men,
This conversation, which continued to a late hour in the night,
and not to measures ; and there appeared to him to be something
was closed by Mr. Lee, the solicitor general. He said lie held
personal in the business, for if' the right honourable gentleman had
it to be the duty of every honest man to resign his office the
such a dislike to the political sentiments of Lord Shelburne,. l'isSW.
moment he found public measures were carrying on of which he
came he to accept of him as a colleague ? And if it was only-a•
c ould not approve. The appointment of a minister unqualified
suspicion that Lord Shelburne was averse to the measures the
for his situation, was undoubtedly a measure of that kind. He
right honourable gentleman wished to adopt, he should have called
I ad heard much of dissention, but he had not seen one person
a cabinet council, and have been certain of it. before he had taken
step forward to say the Earl of Shelburne was a fit and proper
p
such a hasty step as he had done. The right honourable gent/e-
erson for the high office he held. If there was any such person,
lu
jb
e9NVS
man had said, that quite a different system was going to be pur-
;hoeuildt jooliinear him. The noble earl to be sure possessed splen-
did t
sued to what was the ground on which the present ministry came
alents, had some friends, and was now in a way to make more.
, utatite
in ; he could assure him, that he had no such suspicions, for if he
he.prni.niinister of this country should have other endowments.
had, no man would be more averse to supporting them than he
to a sound head a purity of mind, a steadiness of
Prin
would ; but if he should be called upon to act in any capacity
ciple,
and an unsuspected integrity. Were these, he de-
under the present administration, whatever the office might be,
oatlided> .the reputed characteristics of the nobleman just exalted
he should think it his duty cheerfully to lend his hand to forward
Principal department of the state ? To put him at the head
the springs of government, and give them every assistance in hip
4Irs in this plain and open-hearted Country, was to put him
92
ADDRESS ON THE KING'S SPEECH.
[Dee• s.
ADDRESS ON THE KING'S SPEECH.
1782
93
out of his element. The people of England were incapable oe
the public, and to prevent the mischief's arising from spe-
finesse, and not fond of submitting to the government of those
tioll .nf
-
•
l - funds ' •
1
dons m t IL, un ,, tnat tne neeotiations carrying on at Paris
e
who practised
ada
it. The Treasury too required a sober, h onest, in-
ought
uaht so far to a point, as to promise a decisive conclusion,
dustrious, steady commissioner at its head. It was not an Osten.
on t
were br
or war, before h
1e, for peace oi wai, e f me the meeting of parliament, which
tatious affectation of uniting the man of science and the fine gen.
either
account was to be prorogued to the 5th of December."
tleman ; the technical jargon of arts and the gibberish of courts.
:lisa,] :m day the session was opened by the following speech
the pedantry of scholastic nostrums, and the abstruse
:chey
theorems of
the throne :
from
mechanism, that would create respect and consequence in that
Lords and Gentlemen ;
high office. Who knows not, said he, how easily a head filled with
the close of the last session, I have employed my whole
such materials may be turned upside down? He concluded with
time in that care and attention which the important and critical
some observations on the youth and inexperience of the new
On n
conjuncture of public affairs required of me. — I lost no time in
Chancellor of the Exchequer, to whose extraordinary abilities.he
giving the necessary orders to prohibit the further prosecution of
nevertheless paid the highest compliments. He said there was
offensive war upon the continent of North America. Adopting,
an obvious intention of trifling with the people, by bringing for,
as my inclination will always lead me to do, with decision and
ward, one of their favourites as a compensation for insulting
effect, whatever I' collect to be the sense of my parliament and
another ; but though the honourable gentleman would adorn any
my people ; I have pointed all my views and measures, as well
scene in which his part was properly cast, yet he did not think the
in Europe as in North America, to an entire and cordial recon-
confidence of the people would be much increased, by putting the
ciliation with those colonies. — Finding it indispensable to the
complicated business of our finances into the hands of a boy.
attainment of this object, I did not hesitate to go the full length
of the powers vested in me, and offered to declare them free and
independent states, by an article to be inserted in the treaty of
peace. Provisional articles are agreed upon, to take effect when-
ever terms of peace shall be finally settled with the court of
France.— In thus admitting their separation from the crown of
these kingdoms, I have sacrificed every consideration of my own
ADDRESS ON THE KING'S SPEECH AT THE OPENING OF THE
to the wishes and opinion of my people. I make it my humble
SESSION.
and earnest prayer to Almighty God, that Great Britain may not
feel the evils which might result from so great a dismemberment
December 5.
of the empire; and, that America may be, free from those cala-
mities, which have formerly proved in the mother country how
`HE negotiations for a general peace were advancing so nearly
essential monarchy is to the enjoyment of constitutional liberty.—
to a conclusion, that on the 2 3 d of November letters were
Religion —language— interest — affections, may, and I hope will
sent by the secretary of state to the lord mayor of London and
yuto,eatitihprovei a bond of permanent union between the two countries :
the governors of the bank, acquainting them, " For the inform-
neither attention nor disposition on my part shall be
— While I have carefully abstained from all offensive
o_ perations against America, I have directed my whole force by
The following is a List of the Shelburne Administration :
land and sea against the other powers at war, with as much vigour
psa;ailiiittgsh
First Lord of the Treasury — Earl of Shelburne.
itInieig,lsalfivoe e
situation
the
tioib'
b
i of that force, at the commencement of the can-
Chancellor of the Exchequer — Hon. William Pitt.
permit.
trust that you feel the advantages rc..
Principal Secretaries of State—Lord Grantham, Thos. Townshend, Esq.
of the great branches of our trade. You
Lord Chancellor — Lord Thurlow.
seen
pride
n with pude and satisfaction the gallant defence of
First Lord of the Admiralty—Lord Koppel. '
ntc:edgovernor and the garrison of Gibraltar ; and my fleet, after
President of the Council — Lord Camden.
having effe
.(:.:eot,
cted
ombined the object of their destination, offering battle to
Lord Privy Seal— Duke of Grafton.
c
m io
Master-General of the Ordnance —Duke of Richmond.
tn.
-ik:od force of France and Spain on their own coasts ; those
° I. y ki
Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster —Lord Ashburton.
ngdoms have remaiaed at the same time perfectly secure,
Secretary at War — Sir George Yonge.
d
'`ate, omestic tranquillity uninterrupted. This respectable
:it, aiufh
Treasurer of the Navy — Henry Dundas, Esq. (afterwards Lord Melville).
ideiirl the blessing f God, I attribute 'to the entire eonfi-
Paymaster of the Forces — Colonel Barre.
din__ s w i.ch subsists between me and my people, and to the rea-
Attorney-General —; Lloyd Kenyon, Esq. (afterwards Lord Kenyon).
ich h as
dheien been she win by ki ng
my subjects in
fcity offin Lon-
Solicitor-General—John Lee, Esq.
other
of my
Lord Lieutenant of Ireland — Earl Temple.
de- Eral
to stan
myd orth - the
scc. Some proofs have lately been given of public
secretary to ditto — Hon. William Wyndham Grenville (afterwards L ora
Pir it in priv
Grenville).
ate men, which would do honour to any age, and any
1 0
ADDRESS ON THE KING'S SPEECH.
94
ADDRESS ON THE KING'S SPEECH.
95
[Dec' ,
1782.3
country. — Having manifested to the whole world, by the mos
aeoartment of the Mint, that the purity of the coin, of so much im-
t
lasting examples, the signal spirit and bravery of my peo ple 4r
ance to commerce, may be always adhered to ; that by render-
:4
conceived it a moment not unbecoming my dignity, and th
the difficulty of counterfeiting greater, the lives of numbers
4
ought
it a regard due to the lives and fortunes of such brave and gallon
subjects, to show myself ready, on my part, to embrace fair an
im°e• be saved, and every needless expence in it suppressed.—I
nay
ost recommend to you an immediate attention to the great ob-
l
honourable terms of accommodation with all the powers at war.
jests of the public receipts and expenditure ; and above all, to the
I have the satisfaction to acquaint you, that negotiations m this
the public debt. Notwithstanding the great increase of it
state of
effect arc considerably advanced ; the result of which, as soon a,
durina the war, it is to be hoped, that such regulations may still be
they are brought to a conclusion, shall be immediately communs
fi'shed, such savings made, and future loans so conducted, as
cated to you. — I have every reason to hope and believe, that I
toiaibromote the means of its gradual redemption by a fixed course
est
shall have it in my power, in a very short time, to acquaint you,
of' payment. I must, with particular earnestness, distingtiish,
that they have ended in terms of pacification, which, I trust, yea
for your serious consideration, that part of the debt which consists
will see just cause to approve. I rely, however, with perfect con.
of navy, ordnance, and victualling bills : the enormous discount
fidence, on the wisdom of my parliament, and the spirit of my
upon some of these bills shews this mode of payment to be a most
people, that, if any unforeseen change in the dispositions of the
ruinous expedient.— I have ordered the several estimates, made up
belligerent powers should frustrate my confident expectations, they
as correctly as the present practice would admit, to be laid before
will approve of the preparations I have thought it advisable to
you. I hope that such further corrections as may be necessary,
make, and be ready to second the most vigorous efforts in the further
will be made before the next year. It is my desire, that you
prosecution of the war.
should be apprised of every expence before it is incurred, as far
" Gentlemen of the House of Commons, I have endeavoured, by
as the nature of each service can possibly admit. :Matters of ac-
every measure in my power, to diminish the burthens of my peo-
counts can never be made too public.
ple. I lost no time in taking the most decided measures for intro-
" My Lords and Gentlemen ; The scarcity, and consequent high
ducing a better economy into the expenditure of the army.--I
;price of' corn, requires your instant interposition.—The great ex-
have carried into strict execution the several reductions in my civil:
cess to which the crimes of theft and robbery have arisen, in many
list expellees, directed by an act of the last session. I have in-
instances accompanied. with personal violence, particularly in the
troduced a further reform into other departments, and suppressed
neighbourhood of this metropolis, has called of late for a strict and
several sinecure places in them. I have by this means so regulated
severe execution of the laws. It were much to • he wished that
my establishments, that my expence shall not in future exceed my
these crimes could be prevented in their infancy, by correcting
income. — I have ordered the estimate of the civil-list debt, laid
the vices become prevalent in a most alarming degree.—The libe-
before you last session, to be completed. The debt proving greater
ral principles adopted by you, concerning the rights and the com-
than could be then correctly stated, and the proposed reduction
merce of Ireland, have done you the highest honour, and will, I
not immediately taking place, I trust, you will provide for the de
trust, ensure that harmony, which ought always to subsist between
ficiency ; securing, as before, the repayment out of my annual in-
the two kingdoms. I am persuaded, that a general increase of
come. I have ordered inquiry to be made into the application of
commerce throughout the empire will prove the wisdom of your
she sum voted in support of the American sufferers ; and I trust that
measures with regard to that object. I would recommend to you
you will agree with me, that a due and generous attention ought
a revision of our whole trading system, upon the same compre-
to be shown towards those who have relinquished their pro-
hensiVe principles, with a view to its utmost possible extension. —
perties or professions from motives of loyalty to me, or attachment
The regulation of a vast territory in Asia opens a large field for
to the mother country.—As it may be necessary to give stability to
your wisdom, prudence, and foresight. I trust that you will be
some regulations by act of parliament, I have ordered accounts of
able to frame some fundamental laws, which may make their con-
the several establishments, incidental expences, fees, and other
nection with Great Britain a blessing to India ; and that you will
take
emoluments of office, to be laid before you. Regulations have
a
e therein proper measures to give all foreign nations, in matters
of
already taken place in some, which it is my intention to extend to
foreign
f r
commerc
commerce an entire and perfect
erfect confidence in the pro-
all ; and which, besides expediting all business, must produce a very
bi tY, punctuality, andd good order
our government. You pmay
he
considerable saving, without taking from that ample encouragement)
assured, that
depends upon me, shall be executed
which ought to be held forth to talents, diligence, and integrity,
steadiness, which can alone preserve that part of my do-
mina
wherever they are to be found. — I have directed en •enquiry to be
iorieist,hoerfitilllieadv
co.mme:
commerce which arises from it. It is the fixed
made into whatever regards tile landed revenue of my crown, es
object of my heart to make the general good, and the true spirit
b
of the
well as the management of my woods and forests, that both may be
constitution, the invariable rule of my conduct, and on all
occ
made as beneficial as possible, and that the latter may furnish a cer'
asions to advance
vance and reward merit in every profession. — To
ensure
tain resource for supplying the navy, our great national bulwark,
of a government conducted on such prin-
with its first material. —1 have directed an investigation into Lb'
96
ADDRESS ON THE KING'S SPEECH.
[Dec. s.
1782.]
ADDRESS ON THE KING'S SPEECH.
97
ciples, depends on your temper, your wisdom, your disinterested-
tiny an end to offensive operations in America had not been,
ness, collectively and individually. My people expect these qua-
sent till after the recess of parliament. [The Chancellor of
lifications of you: and I call for them."
the Exchequer interrupted Mr. Fox for a moment, just to
An address of thanks in answer to the above speech having been
assure him, that, upon a carefid perusal of the speech, he
moved by Mr. Yorke, of Cambridgeshire, and seconded by Mr.
Bank es,
would find that there was not so much as a shadow of ground
for any such imputation.] Mr. Fox again observed, that he
had not a doubt but such an imputation might be drawn from
Mr. Fox rose. He said, that Though he did not mean
the speech, though he was convinced that there had been no
to give any opposition to the Address that had been just
intention in administration that the speck should convey it.
moved, or to propose any amendment. to it, still he did not
For the words of the speech were, " Since the close of the
think that it would be proper for him, at so important a crisis
last session, I have employed my whole time in the care and
as the present, to let the first day of the session pass over,
attention which the important and critical conjuncture of pub-
without some remarks on a subject of the greatest magnitude.
lic affairs required of me," and iii direct continuation, "
He could have wished that it had Eden to the lot of some
lost no time in giving the necessary orders to prevent the fur-
other person to have taken the lead that day, on account of
ther prosecution of offensive war upon the continent of North
the situation in which he stood, and the suspicions which he
America." It: language was to be understood in its common
was above denying he entertained of some of his majesty's
acceptation, this certainly meant that this important fact was
ministers. That situation, and those suspicions, might in-
done since the last session, and consequently since he and
cline the House to think that he meant, by rising thus early,
his friends had left his majesty's councils; and by the same
to oppose government, right or wrong, and to obstruct their
strain of language,. all the other concerns mentioned in the
measures at any rate. He disclaimed all such intentions.
speech seemed to take their origin from that date. This cer-
Whatever might be his situation, and whatever his suspicions,
tainly- was so ; but he hoped and trusted it was so by inadver-
he should support the present ministry in all things in which
tancy only.
he thought they were acting for the public good; and lie rose
As to the provisional articles of peace with America, it was
now for the purpose of making some remarks on the speech
impossible for him, at this moment, to approve Or condemn.
from the throne. With some parts he was Well pleased, and he
them, because he was utterly unacquainted with them; but
did not mean to give any opposition to the rest, or to propose
he would take it for granted, that the independence, the un-
any amendment. There were some things in the speech which
conditional independence of America was recognised by the
particularly struck him, and some things also in the speeches
first article. The great difference between him, and the pre-
of the two honourable gentlemen who moved and second-
sent minister on that head, was, that the latter wished that
ed the address, particularly the latter. And first, he would take
the independence should be the price of peace, while on his
notice, that in the very out-set of the king's speech, which, ac-
part, he was of opinion, that no barter should be made; but
cording to parliamentary custom, he must consider as the
that Great Britain should, in a manly manner, recognise at
speech of the minister, there was an inaccuracy in point of
once that independence, which it was not in her power to
time, which he was willing to look upon merely as the effect
check or overturn. For this he had two reasons : one was,
of inattention, and not of design ; where it was stated, that
that it would appear magnanimous • on the part of England,
since the last session of parliament, his majesty had lost no
and inspire America with confidence to treat with us, when
time In giving the necessary orders for putting an end to
we should set out by irrevocably granting her independence;
the war on the continent of America. If this date of the
a confidence which she could not feel, if this independence
orders had been correct, it would have be-en . the strongest
was to depend on other measures, which were not yet agreed
proof of guilt in him, and in those with whom • he had had
to: his other reason was, that by a provisional treaty (to
the honour to act in .his majesty's councils, for having so
take place when -France and Great Britain should have settled
long delayed to send out those orders, which parliament had
terms of peace with each other) the very preliminary article
pronounced to be so necessary .; but in fact, they had been
of which was an acknowledgment of American independence,
issued long before: this much he thought necessary to pre-
England and America should have so completely determined
mise, lest the character of a noble friend, now no more, and
all their differences, that nothing more would remain to con-
his own, should suffer iv an imputation, that order& for put-
tend for between them; the two countries might then be said
VOL. II.
1782.]
98
ADDRESS ON THE KING'S SPEECH.
[Dec. 5-
ADDRESS ON THE KING'S SPEECH.
99
to be virtually at peace ; or if America should continue the
— I called for precise declarations — I demanded explicit
war as the ally of France, it would be a war so very like a
language and when I saw that the persons, in whom I had
peace, that France deriving little or no advantage from it,
originally no great confidence, were so eager to delude, and
would be the more easily induced to think of peace, and be
so determined to change the ground on which they had set
the less forward to propose harsh or dishonourable terms to
out, I relinquished my seat in the cabinet, with the heartfelt
-this country. These were the reasons by which he was in-
satisfaction of having maintained my principles unstained, and
fluenced to advise the recognition of unconditional indepen-
with the prospect of being able to do, by leaving it, what I
dence; and he was the more surprised to find that ministers
could not accomplish by remaining there. Mr. Fox said his
had been so tardy in making peace with America by a pro-
hopes and expectations were fulfilled, just as he had appre-
visional treaty, when the same happy effect might have been
hended and stated to that House : he had been able to per-
produced months ago, if unconditional independence had
suade his majesty's ministers to the discharge of their duty,
been earlier offered. For his part, he was unable.to account
more effectually in that House, than he was able to do hi a
for the delay : when his majesty had given him orders to write
private room. Thank Heaven the measure was now taken,
to Mr. Grenville, at Paris, to authorise him to offer inde-
the deed was done, and done, he hoped, in the most effectual
pendence unconditionally to America, he obeyed the orders
way, and he agreed with the honourable seconder of the ad-
with a degree of pleasure, which could be equalled only by
dress, that in doing this we gave away nothing. The inde-
that which he felt, when he read the letter of Lord Shelburne
pendence of America was acknowledged by his majesty's mi-
to Sir Guy Carleton, in which the words of the letter to Mr.
nisters; and though it had been said, " that whenever this
Grenville were recited ; when lie read that letter, he carried it
should happen, the sun of England would set, and her glories
with pleasure to the late Marquis of Rockingham, and with
be eclipsed for ever," yet he was of a contrary opinion, and
joy told him, that all their distrusts and suspicions of the noble
he would defend the Earl of Shelburne against any peer who
Lord's intentions were groundless ; but his pleasure on that
should hold such language. He had set his hand to sign the
occasion was not of long duration ; for even before death
independence of America, although it had been insidiously said,
had removed the noble Marquis from the Treasury, the Earl
that " it would be the ruin of his country, and that he would
of Shelburne began to speak of the dreadful consequences
be a traitor who should do it." But if any peer should dare
that must ensue to this country, if America should be sepa-
to impeach the Earl of Shelburne for having done this, I, said
rated from it; and gave a decisive opinion, that the letter to
Mr. Fox, will stand up his advocate —I will defend him against
Mr. Grenville, and the recital of the same to Sir Guy Carle-
all such artful and insidious charges — I will hold him harm-
ton, were not an unconditional recognition of American inde-
less, and protect him from the accusation of " having dared
pendence, but a conditional offer to be recalled in certain
to give away the rights of Great Britain;" and pledge myself,
circumstances. This
me suspicion, said Mr. Fox, which
that the recognition of the independence of America shall not
for
I could not conceal; for in writing the letter to Mr. Grenville,
be " stained with the blood of the minister who should sign it."
I had chosen the most forcible words that the English lan-
Mr. Fox: here alluded to expressions that had formerly been
guage could supply to express my meaning : as far as I can
made use of by the Earl of Shelburne. Quitting this strain of
recollect they were these, or exactly to this meaning: " to
irony, the honourable gentleman said, that the noble Earl had
recognize the independence ( America, in the first instance,
done this important matter even after all these sayings, and
and not to reserve it as a condition of peace." When he saw.
thinking as he did, that it was so wrong, and so alarming,—
the recital of these words in the letter of the Earl of Shelburne
he could not avoid. on this occasion, applying to him a
to Sir Guy Carleton, all his doubts vanished, and he was com-
distich, which he had read in a ludicrous poet:
pletely relieved. 'What, then, must be his astonishment and
" You've done a noble turn in Nature's spite,
torture, when in the illness and apprehended decease of the
For tho' you think you're wrong, Pm sure you're right."
noble Marquis, another language was heard in the. cabinet,
and some even of his own friends began to consider these
There were some expressions in the speech, which,, though
letters only as offers of a conditional nature—to be recalled
he did not intend to find fault with, he would have been as
if they did not purchase peace. I considered myself as en-
well pleased had they been left out ; and these were the expres-
snared and betrayed ; I therefore determined to take the mea-
sions of the concern felt by his majesty, at the idea of re-
sure by which alone I could act with consistency and honour
nouncing the claims of this country over America ; it would
2
tO0
ADDRESS ON THE KING'S SPEECH.
[Dec.
1782.]
ADDRESS ON THE KING'S SPEECH.
Iot
have been surely much better, had his majesty been advised
make use of language more dignified and becoming, than
boldly and manfully at once to give way to necessity, and not
that which they had put into his mouth.
to express so much dejection at parting with the sovereignty
He was sorry that the speech held out no prospect to this
over a country, which it was no longer in his power to assert
country of alliances to support her, in case she should be
and maintain ; but much as he disliked these expressions, he
obliged, by the unreasonable exactions of France, to continue
was as much pleased with those in which his majesty indulges
the war. He hoped there was no neglect in so important a
the philosophic speculation of prospects of future connection
branch of a minister's duty, as that of making friends and
with America, from similarity of language, manners, religion,
allies ; and yet he could not think, that if we were at this
and laws : for his own part, he did not doubt but the day
moment without friends, it was for want of a good disposition
would come, when by a firm alliance between Great Britain
towards this country in some of the most powerful states of
and America, the courts of France and Spain would awake
Europe. It was true, that while the old ministry were at the
from their idle and illusory dreams of advantage, which they
head of affairs, there was not the least ground for hope that
think will follow to them by the separation of America from
any power would make common cause with a country that
the mother country; through that alliance the sun of Britain
was ruled by madmen ; but he was surprised that, when the
might rise again, and shine forth with dazzling lustre. But to
nation had come to its senses, and driven these madmen front
induce America to confide in us, we should convince her, by
the cabinet, the friendly disposition of some of the great
the most open and unreserved conduct, that we mean fairly,
0
courts of Europe to England had not been courted with suc-
honestly, and sincerely by her. He was always of opinion
cess. He himself had not been long in office ; but, short as
that it was not right, in our present circumstances, to think
the time was, it was long enough to convince him that Eng-
of treating with America, by way of bargain for her indepen-
land was not destitute of powerful friends in Europe, whose
dence. He conceived, that the only method of acting, which
friendship might have been cultivated with success, and im-
was at once political and wise, was to behave with manliness
proved to the great advantage of this country.
and generosity; and to shew them that there was still a disposi-
Peace to him appeared a most desirable object; but much
tion in the government of this country to treat them with the
as he wished for peace, he certainly would not go the lengths
nobleness of Englishmen. This was his idea, when he sat at
to obtain it which the honourable member who had seconded
his majesty's council board, and this was the conduct which
the motion seemed willing to go: what that honourable
he had recommended ever since he perceived that we should
member had said on the subject had cast a melancholy gloom
soon come to the necessity of recognizing their independence,
upon his mind ; and he hoped that it was more from ima-
either with grace, or by compulsion; but he was afraid that
gination than from information that he spoke : no man felt
ministers would act in such a manner as to create suspicions,
more the deplorable situation of the country than he did ; but
even where they meant to act honestly. For instance, in the
he did not think that the most effectual way to incline the
Secretary of State's letter to the Lord Mayor, the colonies
•nemy to a disposition towards a favourable and equitable
were very properly stiled the United States of America; and
peace, was to tell them that we were so completely reduced
as he made no doubt, but in the provisional treaty they were
that no terms could be too hard for us to digest ; that our re-
to declared, he expected to have heard them called by this
sources were so dried up, that economy could scarcely enable
name in his majesty's speech; and the disappointment he felt
us to bear -up under the heavy burthen heaped upon our
on that occasion gave him the more concern, as he perceived
shoulders; nay, that parsimony could scarcely do it; and
there was even now a backwardness publicly to avow and ac-
that hardly any thing short of avarice could save us from sink-
knowledge, what he trusted and hoped was already done in the
ing; he himself was not sanguine in his hopes of finding great
treaty — the independence of America. Surely, if it was
resources in this country; but he was not yet so desponding as
thought proper to call them by their proper name, in the letter
to say, that he would not rather carry on the war still longer,
of the Secretary of State, it would not have been unfit to call
than submit to a dishonourable peace: it was not, indeed, to
them so in the speech; surely his right honourable friend did
be expected, that we could treat advantageously ; but our si-
not mean to defraud his master of the merit of conciliating
tuation was not so desperate as that we ought to accept of
the hearts of the Americans, and binding them to this country
, dishonourable or unreasonable terms: before the provisional
by expressions of . grace and kindness. He was sorry that
treaty with America, we had four powers to contend with ;
his majesty's' ministers had not advised their royal master to
but as he must from the signing of the treaty pronounce the
H
102
ADDRESS ON THE KING'S SPEECH.
[Dec. s.
1782.]
ADDRESS ON THE KING'S SPEECH.
103
American war to be at an end, so he thought we ought to
must always threaten this country with. To cajole an ene-
derive fresh courage, when we should be able to spend in
my was surely not the way in which a powerful and wise nation
operations against the three remaining hostile powers the four
would seek their security. They would break their strength;
or five millions that used to be spent on the continent of
they would crush their rising efforts ; and a sagacious minis-
America : for he thought that the provisional agreement, if it
try would always employ Gibraltar in dividing France from
did not actually give us peace with America, would give us
France, Spain from Spain, and the one nation from the other.
something so like a peace, that •we might freely employ the
But though this measure was not adopted, from which the
troops now in America against the other powers.
most solid advantages would have flowed, still it must be ad-
The honourable seconder was not satisfied, it seemed, with
mitted, that even in the present war, Gibraltar had been of
the idea of subscribing to any terms of peace, merely for the
infinite use to this country, by the diversion of so considera-
sake of getting peace; but he consulted the durability of it,
ble a part of the force of our enemies, which, employed else-
and seemed ready to sacrifice every thing in order to make it
where, might have greatly annoyed us. But, said the ho-
lasting : now, he was of a different' opinion ; for in making a
nourable member, " Spain having seen the folly of attempting
disadvantageous peace, he would not for a moment think of
to reduce that fortress, may never again be tempted to invest
its durability, but attend solely to the object of availing him-
it, and therefore it•may never again occasion a diversion of
self of the opportunity afforded by the cessation from hostili-
her force." This was a mode of reasoning that experience
ties, to cultivate the friendship of some of the great powers of
did not seem to justify ; he had, in general, too great a re-
Europe, and to make such alliances as would enable him to
spect for princes to speak lightly of them : but there might be
go to war again with greater prospect of success. The ho-
near the heart of every prince a longing after something
nourable member, after praising the conduct of General El-
which could not be removed but by the attainment or posses
liot and Lord Howe, in their gallant defence and relief of
Sion of that something ; a thousand disappointments might
Gibraltar, threw a gloom over the minds of all who had heard
not be able to convince him that his longing could never be
him, by hinting at the possibility of this important fortress
gratified. Those who knew the history of this country for the
being about to be ceded to the enemy. He could not easily
last nine years would be ready to agree with him, that it was
express how much he was struck with this alarming hint, and
not easy to convince men of their follies, even when they
he hoped that in this he spoke merely from speculation, and
were proved to be so. We had in this country continued
not from authority; for the possession of that fortress and har-
for eight years the war in America ; and yet the misfortunes
bour was invaluable to this country, though some people of
of each preceding campaign, which ought to have suede us
late affected to say, that it was of no farther use to us. In
wiser, by convincing us that we were engaging in a ruinous
former wars its value was often felt; and if, in the present
pursuit of an object which we could never attain, had not till
war, the old ministry had not been as dastardly as they were
lately wrought that effect: and what should hinder us from
mad, perhaps all the calamities of this war might have been
thinking that the King of Spain might not persevere zealously
prevented. If a fleet had been stationed there in time to
in the longing for the reduction of Gibraltar, as a Prince
watch the Mediterranean, Comte d'Estaign never could have
nearer home was taught to pant after the phantom of uncon-.
got to America, to give that assistance to the colonies, which
ditional submission from America ? The fortress of Gibraltar
had since secured to them their independence; but the mis-
was to be ranked among the most important possessions of this
fortune of this country was to have ministers at that time,
country ; it was that which gave us respect in the eyes of na-
who, while they spoke in the most lordly terms to America,
tions; it manifested our superiority, and gave us the means of
and insisted that she should be reduced to unconditional sub-
obliging them by protection. Give up to Spain the fortress
mission, were - endeavouring to cajole the court of Spain ;
of Gibraltar, and the Mediterranean becomes to them. a pool,
and refrained from sending out a formidable fleet to Gibral-
a pond in which they can navigate at pleasure, and act with-
tar, because they conceived that the King of Spain would
out control or check. Deprive yourselves of this station, and
take umbrage at seeing a fleet in the Mediterranean : but had
the states ,of Europe, that border on the Mediterranean, will
the measure been adopted, there would have been little reason
no longer 'look to you for the maintenance of the free naviga-
to be apprehensive of any bad consequences from his resent-
tion of that sea; and having it no longer in your power to be
ment, for then we should have had it in our power to pre-
useful, you cannot expect alliances. The honourable gentle-
vent the evil that a union of the fleets of France and Spain
man talked of the cession of this important fortress on a prin.-
I 4
104
ADDRESS ON THE ICING'S SPEECH.
[Dec. 5•
1782:1
ADDRESS ON THE KING'S SPEECH.
105
ciple the most delusive. Because it was a possession dear to'
General Elliott would immortalize his name ; and the latest
the enemy, the object of their ambition and their pride, he
posterity would be at a loss which to admire in the hero
would yield it to them, as the means of preventing future wars.
most, his gallantry in repelling the various attacks, or
This .was a maxim the most delusive that could be ; and the
his humanity in saving from impending death the enemy
honourable gentleman ought to know that generalities might
he had defeated. He had combined qualities the most un-
in all cases be carried too far. If you govern yourselves by
common, and had risen almost superior to every precedent
this maxim, there will be no end to cession, because there
of reality. We could only seek for his image in the chronicles
will be no end to desire. Ambition is a vice which grows
of romance, where heroes were painted in a stile of colouring
like avarice from what it feeds on ; and the honourable gen-
superior to human nature. The noble lord who had relieved
tleman must be strangely ignorant of the ambition, avarice,
the garrison was almost above praise ; in the sight of a supe-
and lust of human governments, if he thinks that the posses-
rior force he threw relief into Gibraltar ; and then, he would
sion of Gibraltar, because it is the immediate object of the
not say he had insulted, because be did not wish to use bard
court of Spain, would prevent them from forming new de-
words, but he braved the united fleets of France and Spain.
sires, which they would endeavour to gratify by new wars. If
Could he do more ? If any one in this House, (said Mr. Fox,
you teach them that war induces you to cession, there is not a
looking at Governor Johnstone,) thinks he could, let him speak
doubt but they will go to war. The true policy, therefore, is
out, and charge the noble lord. If there is any man who has
to teach them that you will not gratify passion so pursued ;
accused him in public or in private circles, in anonymous slan-
that you know there is no economy in cession ; and that it is
ders, or in pamphlet attacks", let him now come forward
wiser and more for your interest to continue expensive wars,
and speak his sentiments. It was riot in England only that
than by unwise and foolish concessions to purchase .a tempo-
the character of Lord Howe was admired : a foreigner of dis-
rary peace, neither safe nor honourable. The honourable
tinction had written from Paris in the following terms. " Every
gentleman may talk of the durability of peace, said Mr. Fox,
one here is full of admiration at the conduct of Lord Howe.
but I can never think it wise to pay much regard to that pros-
All praise his bravery and humanity. All wish to take his
pect. The inconsistency, the weakness, and the passions of
conduct for their example. This makes us think, that in your
human governments will in all time continue to tear asunder
country a court martial will be appointed to try him whenever
the bands of civil concord; and no gratification, no accession,
he arrives in England." And here it was but decent to give
no dismemberment of empire, no good fortune, no calamity,
that tribute of
which was so justly due to the present
will induce kings to sit down contented with what they have
He
Admiralty. He had often spoken in desponding terms of the
acquired, or patient under their loss, but after a little breath-
state of the navy, when it was surrendered up by the last
ing time they will again rise into outrage, offence, and war.
Admiralty; but desponding as his language was, it did not ex-
In negotiating a peace, therefore, he would rather stipulate
press half the despondency he then felt: what, then, must have
for the advantages, than the durability of it, sensible that its
been the exertions of the noble Lord now at the head of the
duration must depend on contingencies not at all within his
naval department of government, when he had fitted out a fleet
power to reach.
that was able to brave the combined fleets, from which we used
Having said so much. on what the honourable gentleman
in preceding campaigns to flv ? It had been the astonish-
,
bad thrown out about Gibraltar, mid the principle of conces-
ment of Europe, and had given such advantages and brilliancy
sion, he would not take upon him to say, that in no possible
to the present campaign, as would and ought to be felt in the
situation the fortress of Gibraltar ought to be bartered, or
making of a peace.
given up. But if, after all this, it should be determined to
He next touched upon the present cabinet, and observed,
give up Gibraltar, he would advise ministers not to attempt to
that though he disliked its construction, there was some of its.
sink the value of it, but to rate it as high as it ought to be, and
constituent parts against which he could have no objection ; for
then make the best bargain that they could, either by getting
Lie knew that though one member of the cabinet might promise
the most money for it, or exchanging it for a valuable and ade-
a great deal more than he intended to perform, there were.
quate consideration. And here he would take an opportu-
nity to express his hearty concurrence in that part of the ad-
dress which replied to the honourable mention made by his
* Alluding to a letter signed " Nautical," supposed to be written by
n4esty of the defence and relief of Gibraltar: the ot:tcluct of
--Torarnor Johnstone.
o 6
ADDRESS ON THE KING'S SPEECH.
[Dec. 5.
1782.71
ADDRESS ON THE KING'S SPEECH.
107
others who would hold him to the performance of his promises :
he trusted that no change* in either of their situations would
as to himself, he believed he really was of more service out of
occasion any difference of sentiment and conduct.
office, and debating in that House, than he could possibly have
He assured ministers that he did not mean to give them
been if he had remained in the cabinet; for he found that those
any wanton opposition. He would support them as far as he
measures, which, while in office, he recommended in vain to
could with honour and duty ; and however he might object
the council, were readily adopted when he laid down his em-
to the constitution of the administration, and however he
ployments.
might suspect the sincerity of some among them, yet he could
He was entirely of the opinion of the honourable gentleman
not think that any thing very hostile to this country could be
who seconded the motion, that a peace was to be procured if
formed, while he saw in that cabinet some men of whose vir-
possible; but surely the minister knew that he had the means
tue and integrity he entertained so high an idea.
of supporting war. The number of men whom he found " rid-
He concluded with taking notice of something that fell
ing in hackney coaches, crowding the streets, and travelling
from Mr. Yorke, with respect to the reformation in public
the Bath road," chewed him that the nation was not exhausted
offices, and the distress it would bring on individuals if their
of resources, but had yet the means of supporting the war, in
salaries were not continued during their lives. He was sure his
case our enemies should be disinclined to an honourable
honourable friend who first brought about these reformations
and fair peace. He was for peace in preference to war. It
did not mean that any person should suffer by them ; that the
was not the policy of this nation to go to war for territory, from
intentions of his honourable friend had been greatly mis-re-
the lust of more dominion, or the love of power. He would
presented in that particular ; and if such cruelties were in-
be as moderate in his desire of new acquisitions, as he would
tended, they were to be ascribed to those who had the execu-
be determined in his resolution to keep what we have.
tion of the arrangements. He trusted, he said, that he should
He adverted to the reports of large voluntary gifts to go-
soon see the provisional articles laid upon the table ; till which
vernment by private individuals. He said, he admitted and
time he begged to be understood,- that the vote which he gave
admired the public spirit and generosity of the persons who
on that day, he gave in the persuasion that those articles con-
made the offers; but he begged leave to lay in his protest
tained a full and final renunciation of the independence of
against their legality; and he conceived that the compliment
America: and he begged also to be understood that he
paid to them in the speech was ill judged and improper.
pledged himself to no other object than that, nor possessed
He conceived, that according to our constitution, no money
any high opinion of the other parts of the speech, delivered
could be received by the executive branch, and applied to the
that day from the throne.
public purposes of the nation, which did not pass through the
hands of parliament, and had not the sanction of the Com-
The address was agreed to by the House without any division.
mons of England. Such aids were contrary to the very es-
On the following day, when the report from the committee ap-
sence of our constitution; for by such benevolences, govern-
pointed to draw up • the said address was read,
ment was entrusted with money which came not under the
check and controul of parliament. This question had been
Mr. Fox rose. He said, that a doubt struck him as well
agitated some time ago in that House, brought on by an
as others, with respect to one thing, which he hoped his ma-
nent lawyer, now a member of the other House, and one of '
jesty's ministers would now explain, if they could do it con-
his majesty's cabinet counsellors, (Lord Ashburton,) by whose
sistently. The question which he wished to ask was, Whether
arguments he was thoroughly convinced of the illegality of
the provisional treaty concluded with America, by which the
benevolences, and gave his vote on the question accordingly.
independence of America was no doubt fully recognized, was
He hoped and believed that the prospect held out in the
done unconditionally ; so that if the negotiations now carrying
speech, of attention being to be paid to our East-India con-
forward with France for a general peace should not be brought
cerns, would not be delusive. He deemed the national ho-
to a speedy determination, still the provisional agreement
nour pledged in this business; and he trusted it was not in-
would remain in force, and whenever we should have a peace
tended by any sophistry to depart from the resolutions already
with the European powers, this agreement would be finally
come to concerning it. The learned lord advocate, (Mr.
Dundas,) who had been indefatigable in pursuing this business,
had received his countenance and support while in place, and
* Mr. Dundas had recently been appointed Treasurer of the Navy.
108
ADDRESS ON THE KING'S SPEECH.
[Dec. 5.
1782.]
INDEPENDENCY OF TILE UNITED STATES.
109
ratified? If this was the case, he approved of the vote which
he had given ; but if it was otherwise, if this provisional treaty
depended on the present negotiation, and was to die with it,
then he revoked the approbation which he had given, and
MR. FOX'S MOTION roil SUCH or THE ARTICLES or THF.
held himself at liberty to declare, that such an agreement would
PROVISIONAL TREATY WITH AMERICA, AS RELATE TO
be mad and impolitic. I'Ve should, by that means, have no-
THE RECOGNITION OF THE INDEPENDENCY OF THE UNITED
thing in the shape of peace with America, but should go on
STATES.
in eternal war. This was his clear, decided opinion, and he
should retract ever y syllable of praise he had given to the mea-
December 18.
sure if he found it Clad been clone in this way. His reason for
asking this question was, that he had heard a different explana-
THE contrariety of opinion amongst the members of the
tion had been given of the provisional articles in another
cabinet, which discovered itself in the preceding debate
place, and it was a matter of the utmost moment that it should
occasioned a second debate in the House of Lords. On the
be clearly and fully understood before they ratified their con-
13th Earl Fitzwilliarn remarked, that these contradictions be-
ing public and notorious, might lead to consequences of the ut-
sent to the address. One thing more he would take notice of
most importance, and therefore demanded an immediate explana-
now that he was upon his legs. It had been said of him in
tion. During the progress of negotiations with artful and jealous
the debate yesterday, that he had always been a friend to the
enemies, every appearance of duplicity, or even ambiguity in our
independence of America. This was not the case. He had
councils, ought most anxiously to be avoided. In order, therefore
all along considered the independence of America as an evil of
to rescue government from the suspicions under which it lay ; in
great magnitude, and as such he had always spoken of it.
order to satisfy the country that the subjugation of America could
But when America became independent, which in his mind she
not, under any possible circumstances, be again attempted ; in.
had been absolutely for the last five years, he had declared
order to secure confidence to administration both at home and
his wishes for the recognition of their independence as an
abroad, he begged leave to propose the following question to the
noble earl at the head of his majesty's treasury : " Is it to be un-
act salutary and seasonable for the legislature of this country,
derstood that the independence of America is never again to be-
by which we might do that with grace which we must at last
come a subject of doubt, discussion, or bargain ; but is to take effect
do without it, and thereby conciliate and restore harmony
absolutely at any period, near or remote, whenever a treaty of
between the two countries. He repeated the question which
peace is concluded with the court of France, though the present
he had put to ministers with respect to the provisional agree-
treaty should entirely break off? Or, on the contrary, is the inde-
ment which had been, he said, the principal purpose for which
pendence of America merely contingent ; so that if the particular
he had risen.
treaty now negotiating with that court should not terminate in a
peace, the offer is to be considered as revoked, and the indepen-
In consequence
dence left to be determined by circumstances, and the events of
of this appeal Mr. Secretary Townshend, Mr.
war?" To the question thus put, the minister positively refused to
Chancellor Pitt, and General Conway, the Commander in Chief,
severally rose
give any answer, and was supported by the Dukes of Richmond and
and declared, that the articles were only so far pro-
Chandos. It was urged in vain, that he had already, on the first
visional, that they depended upon the single contingency of peace
day of the session, avowed his sentiments in a full and explicit man-
being concluded with France : but whenever that event took place,
ner; that the present question was only put on account of doubts
the independence of America stood recognized withput any re-
that had arisen from the contradictory assertions of others of his
served condition whatever.
majesty's servants; that it was the language of ministers, and not
the secrets of the treaty, of which an explanation was desired ;
that the fact must necessarily be known to all the parties concern-
ed in the subsisting negotiations ; that it was a secret to the British
parliament alone ; and that no possible mischief could arise from
his giving the satisfaction required. The Earl of Shelburne per-
sisted in his refusal ; declaring that the whole house should not
force an answer from him, which he conceived he could not give
without violation of his oath as a privy counsellor. Declaring war
and snaking peace, were, he said, the undoubted prerogative of the
cro,ka, and ought to be guarded from all incroachment with the
1 10
ATOTION RELATING To THE
[Dec. 18.
1 7 8 2.]
INDEPENDENCY Or THE UNITED STATES.
J I I
most particular care. If the popular parts of the constitution
case of conscience, and submitted it to a casuist; there was an
thought themselves better adapted for carrying on negotiations of
affectation in ministers, notwithstanding the diversity of opin-
this sort, he would advise them to go to the King at once, and tell
ion that visibly prevailed among them, to have it thought that
him that they were tired of the monarchical establishment, that they
they were all perfectly unanimous. But how stood that unan-
meant to do the business of the crown themselves, and had no fur-
Unity ? They might indeed have all concurred in making a par-
ther occasion for his services. No man, he added, could be more
anxious than himself to have the world know what he had done, and
ticular treaty ; but did they all agree in the interpretation of
to receive the judgment of parliament and of the people of England
it ? Not at all : the noble lord who was supposed to have the
upon his proceedings ; and that for this purpose, so soon as pru-
greatest influence in his majesty's councils suffered his col-
dence and policy should warrant, he would not lose a moment in
leagues to explain as they understood: but he thought it pro-
laying the treaty before them. With respect to the assertion that
per to assume to himself the same liberty; as he understood it
had so frequently been made, that no mischief would arise from
differently, so he explained it differently : all reasoning men
giving the answer required, he said it was a little extraordinary that
must allow, that unanimity in agreeing to a treaty was of little
those who knew not What the treaty was, should be so positive in
consequence, when compared to unanimity in the interpreta-
declaring there could be no secret's in it, whilst those who did
tion of it : the words of the treaty were of themselves of little
know its contents as positively asserted there were.—On the 16th
Mr. Fox gave notice of his intention to move, on the first conve-
consequence;- that which was truly consequential, was the in-
nient day, for the provisional treaty to be laid before the house, or
terpretation or construction put upon those words by those who
such parts of it as related to the recognition of American indepen-
were to execute the treaty, and act upon them : a man might
dence. At the same time, as a proof that he had no design to em-
differ in opinion from another, and yet might sacrifice his opin-
barrass government, or throw any impediment in the way of the
ion for the sake of unanimity, when there was a question of
minister's negotiations, he declared that if the secretary of state
adopting some particular measure; but when a measure was
would pledge himself to the house, that the treaty in question con-
adopted, to differ about the meaning of that measure, this was
tained particulars, which, if discovered earlier than the nioment
the division, this was the difference teat he thought of the most
ministers might choose for laying it before parliament, would be at-
tended with mischievous consequences, and materially affect the
dangerous nature to the public. To exemplify this, in a case
negotiations then carrying on, he would desist from his purpose
in which he was concerned; he stated the Earl of Shelburne's
altogether. The minister refusing to pledge himself in the manner
letter to Sir Guy Carleton, in which the independence of
proposed, on the 18th,
America was declared to be a measure, to which his majesty's
commissioners were instructed to subscribe unconditionally ;—
Mr. Fox rose to make his promised motion. He said,
from that moment he rejoiced beyond expression, and would
that no two things upon earth could be more opposite to each
have been happy, if he had been at liberty to shew this letter
other than the explanation given to the same treaty by his
to those who used frequently to intimate their suspicions to hint
majesty's ministers in one place, and a minister of his majesty
that the noble earl would never consent to recognize the in
in another ; for while the former had fairly and roundly de-
dependence of America; how easily could he, if he had been
clared the treaty with America to be final, conclusive, and ir-
at liberty, have silenced their complaints, and dispelled all
revocable; the latter as roundly asserted the very contrary.
their doubts ! But what must have been his surprise, if after
He adverted particularly to what the Earl of Shelburne had
so full and ample a declaration made by the noble earl in his
said on the sacredness of secrecy in this case. With what lit-
letter, he had afterwards found him endeavouring to explain.
tle deference did that noble person treat his colleagues ! They
it away? What confidence could the other powers of Europe
had fairly answered all these questions ; and if to answer them
place in the ministers of this country, when they found that
fairly was to betray his majesty's secrets, and to violate the
how unanimous soever they might be in agreeing to a mea-
privy counsellor's oath, the noble lord must of course look upon
sure, they never could be brought to hold the same opinion
his colleagues as perjured men, and betrayers of their trust.
when the purport of that measure was to be explained ?
It was a most convenient thing indeed for a man to have a
What must Europe think of us, if after he had informed all .
conscience, behind which he could shelter himself from what- tp
the foreign courts, that we were about to recognize uncondi-
ever he did not like to face : the noble lord could not have
tionally the independence of America, they should find that
acted more wisely than when he had recourse to his oath ; and
his colleague in office, who had concurred in the measure,
a confessor could not have given a better advice : one might
explained itin the most different manner ? In Mr. Secretary
have imagined, indeed, that the noble lord had drawn up
Hamilton's letter, the Lord Mayor of Dublin, and through him
kOTION RELATING TO THE
[Dec. I 8.
; '782.]
INDEPENDENCY OF THE UNITED STATES.
T I 3
the people of Ireland, were informed that the independence
between his majesty's commissioners and the commissioners
of America was finally recognized by England, in a treaty
of the United States of America, as relate to the recognition
which was to take effect between the two powers, whenever
of the independency of the said States."
we should make peace with France. Could any terms be
more strong ? The independence being finally recognised, it
The motion was supported by Lord John Cavendish, Lord
was with propriety that the Lord Lieutenant, speaking of
Maitland, Mr. Hartley, Mr. Byng, Mr. Burke, and Mr. Sheridan ;
England and America, had called them these two powers ;
and opposed by the ministers and their friends as unseasonable
and unnecessary. Mr. Thomas Pitt moved the order of the day.
but how must his Excellency feel, how must the people of
General Conway, the commander in chief, at the close of the
Ireland feel, when they hear, in contradiction to his Excellen-
debate, observed, that the motion had not met with the concur-
cy's letter that the first minister of this country has declared,
rence of the House, and Ile did not think the mover would dare
that the independence is not finally recognised ; for that as the
to take the sense of the House upon it, as he knew that he should
treaty in which it is recognised is revocable, the independence
be attended into the lobby by so small a minority.
is only conditional, and of course not finally recognised ! - To
come to a full eclaircissement on this subject, it was his wish
Mr. Fox entered into a full examination of all that had
to see the treaty itself; and as the House would barely desire
been said in answer to his arguments, and in objection to his
to have the treaty, the noble earl need not be alarmed for his
motion. That he dared not to take the sense of the I-louse,
conscience; he might produce the articles, and keep his mean-
lie said, was language that he did not expect to hear from
ing to himself; the House of Commons would put a construc-
the right honourable gentleman. That the smallness of
P
a
tion upon them themselves, which could not in future be ex-
minority was a proof of the weakness. of the cause, was a pro-
plained away by any minister. If there was any part of the
position he thought would not have been advanced by that
treaty which ministers would undertake to say, could not, in
right honourable gentleman, after the many hard trials and
their opinion, be disclosed without danger in the present state
severe struggles they had had to cure that House of their love
of the negotiation, he would not press the motion he intended
of the American war. He commented on his declaration, that
to make : there always was a willingness or bias in the House
there was no material difference in the language of his ma-
to support government, and he would call that bias laudable ;
jesty's ministers on the nature of the provisional treaty. It
and shew he felt it in himself, by withdrawing his motion, if
was one of the slight differences then, which that right ho-
ministers would assure him that there were parts of,the treaty
nourable gentleman regarded as immaterial; it was no more
that were not yet ripe for disclosure. He had heard it reported,
than the independence or dependence of America. It was
that there were in the treaty with America, secret articles
no more than whether the mad scheme of subjugating Ame-
unknown to France, and known only to England and Ame-
rica was abolished or not ; and this was what the right ho-
rica; he did not desire to see these articles; nay, to be can-
nourable gentleman, with his wonted facility and accommo-
did, he would not even desire that ministers should say there
dation, called a slight, innnaterial difference. The right
were any such. In a word, all he wished to learn was, whe-
Honourable gentleman, said the American commissioners were
ther there was really a subsisting treaty with America, which
pleased with the treaty. With the treaty were they pleased,
should survive the present negotiations with France, though
or with the explanations of it ? With both explanations they
they should not end in a peace ? This being a reasonable cu-
could not be pleased undoubtedly, and it was for the purpose
. riosity, he expected support in his motion, though he courted
of affixing to it a certain, specific, absolute, and unchange..
none : lie did not know whether he might expect the support
able meaning that he desired to see it on the table. Mr. Fox
of the noble lord in the blue ribbon, who, in a strange mode
went pretty much into the enumeration of the advantages to
of reasoning, brought himself to vote with ministers, because
be reaped by its exposure, the first and greatest of which was,
they did not agree with one another. If his motion should
that when the American people came to see that the recogni-
be adopted, the House would then be able to judge for them-
tion of the independence of America was ratified by . the leois-
selves, whether the independence was,. as he hoped it was, un-
l
P
ature, all doubts would vanish; all jealousies would expire;
conditional and irrevocable. He then moved, " That an
the bond which tied them to France would lose its energy ;
humble Address be presented to his majesty, that he will be
and if that hostile and ambitious power did not become mc,)
graciously pleased to give directions, that there be laid before
debate in its demands, America would agree to a separate
this House, such parts of the provisional articles, agreed upon,
Peace. He laughed at the idle nonsense of danger, if
voL. 11.
IRISH JUDICATURE BILL.
[Jan. 22e
'783.]
IRISH JUDICATURE BILL.
II5
I 14
treaty was unequivocal. He confessed, that ministers had on
renunciation it was justly apprehended that the parliament of
that day most implicitly obeyed the injunction they had re-
Great Britain would not be brought to consent. The measure of
a simple repeal of the declaratory act of the 6th of Geo. I. was
ceived of silence; for though they had spoken, he defied any
therefore moved by Mr. Fox, and adopted, as most consistent
man to explain what the y meant. In the king's speech there
with the spirit of the people there, and the dignity of government
breathed a pious hope that the similarity of language would
here : and though some leading men in Ireland seemed to think
be a bond of union between Britain and America. If this
that an absolute renunciation was necessary ; yet an address was
was true, as he trusted it was, what shameful policy it was
carried there through both houses, with only two or three dissen-
in the king's ministers to use language which, whether it was
tient voices, expressing their perfect satisfaction, and declaring
English, or whether it was French, or whatever tongue it
that no constitutional question between the two countries would
might be, it was what no mortal could understand. They
any longer exist. After this the parliament of Ireland proceeded
in the exercise of their legislative capacity, to enact laws for re-
would destroy the advantage of similarity of language. The
gulating their judicial proceedings, and for confining the decisions
French might coinimunicate through the medium of a sworn
of property to their own courts of law, with power of appeal to
interpreter ; but the Earl of Shelburne objected to all sworn
the House of Lords of that country only. Things were going on
interpreters, and insisted that they should use words to which
in this amicable manner, when a cause that had been removed by
no meaning could be affixed of any kind whatever. Mr. Fox
writ of error from Ireland to the Court of King's Bench, long be-
most anxiously hoped, that the conduct of ministers on that
fore the repeal had been in agitation and which the judge, by the
day would not give such distrust to nations, as to prevent
rules of the court, was bound to determine, was brought to a
their gaining an honourable peace for their country. That
decision. In consequence of this unlucky accident, Colonel Fitz-
was the first great object of his heart, and his motion for the
patrick, on the 19th of December, called the immediate attention
of ministers to the insufficiency of the repealing act ; and on the
production of the treaty, flowed from a sincere conviction,
22d of January, 178 3 , immediately after the Christmas recess,
that it would facilitate that great end.
Mr. Secretary Townshend moved for leave to bring in a bill " for
removing and preventing all doubts which have arisen or might
The House then divided on the motion for the other order of
arise, concerning the exclusive rights of the parliament and
the day :
courts of Ireland, in matters of legislation and judicature, and
Tellers.
Tellers.
for preventing any writ of error, or appeal, from any of his ma-
Byng 46.
YEAS (Lord Mahon}
jesty's courts in that kingdom, from being received, heard, and
219.
NOES
Mr.
Mr. Long S
Orde
adjudged in any of his majesty's courts in that kingdom.
Mr. Fox's motion was consequently rejected.
Mr_ Fox rose, not, he said, to oppose or censure the pre-
sent motion by any means. It might appear to some men's
minds extremely inexpedient; to others it was evidently right,
and indicated a degree of necessity of which, however, for
one he was clear to own he did not see the ground. But as
BILL VCR REMOVING DOUBTS CONCERNING THE EXCLUSIVE
a measure, of which he did not perceive any either very good
RIGHTS OF THE PARLIAMENT AND COURTS OF IRELAND
or bad consequences, he would not give it an opposition ; at
IN MATTERS OF LEGISLATION AND JUDICATURE.
the same time, he trusted no member would consider it as
resulting from what had passed in that House last year rela-
tive to the affairs of Ireland. Whoever would now come
JanItaty 22. I 783.
forward, and arraign that wise, salutary, arid important mea-
the matter of establishing. the legislative and judicial
sure, as producing grievances which now required the in-
VITEN
te
'cr independence of the kingdom of Ireland was under the con-
rference of the legislature, he would deliver it as his opinion,
sideration of the late ministry, two ways of doing it had occurred.
d ui not understand the business. He had every reason to be
The one, by a renunciation of what this country held to be a right,
convinced, as he certainly was in the fullest manner, that the
but which it was ready -to give up. This mode, however, it was
measure to which he alluded occasioned general satisfaction
foreseen, might give offence to the people of Ireland, who con-
fli •oughout Ireland. It was impossible but it must have
tended, that England:never had any such right. The other mode
• Was by declaring that England, though it had exercised, had rie,.a
been as he had stated it. Did the requisition of Ireland extend
to a single point which had not by the British parliament
ver been legagy possessed of; such a right : but to this mode
1 2
I16
IRISH JUDICATURE BILL.
[Jan. 22,
TRISH JUDICATURE BILL.
1753.]
I1 7
been granted to them, and granted to them in the most tine,
the repeal of the 6th of George I. were virtually invested with
quivocal and explicit terms ? Did not the repeal of the ac t of
fa ll powers to regulate every domestic inconvenience accord-
the 6th of. George I. demonstrate that this country was far
to their own discretion, without the controul of any power
ing
from claiming any jurisdiction over them ? Was not this re,
on earth. This they had actually clone, and a bill for the
peal most happily connected with a variety of circumstance;
ose had received the royal assent. Any thing farther did
pUrp
which went to the same effect? Had his majesty's ministers,
ere
theref
thttore,
.or
strike him, as in the smallest degree essential
not:
for the time being, calculated erroneously, or proceeded on
either to their general content or convenience. It was not his
these principles, without mature consideration ? Their plan
design to go farther into the business. He was led thus far
was, however, sufficiently justified by the event. For what
fro n the tone adopted by the several honourable gentlemen
was the language of Ireland at that time? Did not the whole
who had already spoken. Ill as some might think it became
kingdom breathe the most heart-felt gratitude ?
him, he notwithstanding would hazard one piece of advice to
He was persuaded the friends of the bill proposed by the
his majesty's ministers; this business must have an end some
right honourable Secretary would not, therefore, impute it
time or other; and the question now was, how should they
to that measure, or hold up the one as an amendment or
draw the line, and where would it be possible for them to stop ?
completion of the other. This, in his opinion, would be
It was madness to imagine, that any measure whatever could
acting unfairly and unjustly ; as the complaints of Ireland, so
not, and would not be cavilled at. The people of Ireland,
far as they then went, had been, even in their own ideas, sa-
like all other people in similar circumstances, would speculate
tisfactorily answered. It was true, a reference, by writs of
on public affairs. But surely all rumours were not objects of
error to the Court of King's Bench in this country, was not
sufficient importance to interest the attention of that House,
included in a full renunciation of her rights of supreme juris-
or when they did, no man could imagine that any statute, or
.diction over Ireland, neither was it demanded of us by them,
preamble to a statute, or form whatever, would totally sup-
It was very well if their desires and petitions were granted when
press them. But the honourable gentleman begged he might
put. The Address, as transmitted from Ireland, fully evinced
not be misunderstood on the other side of the water, as if he
the reception which the resolves and decrees of the British le-
retained any wish to support the supremacy of Great Britain.
gislature had met with from them. These were collected by
His sentiments on that head were well known. He only
the parliament of Ireland, who were certainly competent judget
wished that ministers would come to the resolution of making
of their sincerity and expedience. The plain English, there-
a stand somewhere, that they would take the most permanent
fore, of there being still something more necessary than had
station, and by their conduct put it out of the power of party,
yet been done, and that the doubts and discontents of the Irish
prejudice, or any other bad principle, to misrepresent their
were the grounds of the present motion, was, that we know
meaning, or doubt their sincerity. Reason, equity, justice,
what the people of Ireland think, and how they feel better
and expediency, were motives which could never be mistaken:
than their own parliament does; and though their parliament
and whenever they assumed these for the grounds of their
should think them pleased, we know they are not; they
system, it would prove a solid and effective one. But he
are full of doubts and diffidence, in so much that an act Of
trusted no latent designs against the rights and liberties of any
o
su
the British legislature is still necessary to allay their fears, and
bjects to the crown, would. ever be seriously imputed to
persuade them that our intentions are sincere and liberal. lie
a British ministry. He vowed to God he would rather re-
thought this a strange mode of reasoning, but was sorry 110
iniquish the dependence on the crown of England altogether,
other could well account for the present motion. It was; il"
than see them subjected to it by force of arms. There was a
his apprehension, doing violence to human nature, as hew?:
Point, he had always seen, where we ought to have stopped
certain cotthdence could never result from any exertion of il:.
with A merica. This might serve as a warning how we let
legislature. It was, in, its own nature, voluntary. A Pr':
ourselves down, or lessened the dignityand consequence of par-
fusion of professions never had, and he would venture to Pr',o
,
'lament by bringing matters under its cognizance which were
b
diet, never would, either produce or confirm it. It di d l'ait
.,eneath its attention. He was therefore not a little anxious
that
become an English parliament to interfere about the app ; ,
an end should be put to this kind of business, and that it
in matters of right, by writs of error. This was, in h i' °}1;,
Tight be s
ttnr.t tsh
i
ufficiently- understood on both sides of the water,
rdon, competent only to the parliament of Ireland, who,
Enagl
parliament
lotion h
had come to letnal s-
final
se It h di been frequently imputed to himsoht his oprepoo-
I
IRISII JUDICATURE BILL.
[Jan. 22.
17 8 3 . ]
PRELIMINARY ARTICLES OF PEACE.
119
rogatives had been assumed, she certainly, and to all intents
sition was rather to men than measures. He had wished to
and purposes, relinquished every shadow of jurisdiction and
meet that idea, as he frankly confessed himself not endowed
supremacy. He was not, however, disposed to raise any
with such talents as were sufficiently calculated to distinguish
opposition to the motion ; only he would protest against its
between men and measures. Most people, of whom he was
drawing along with it any of the constructions he had spe-
one, were very apt to. judge of the actions by what they knew
cified. It was chiefly for this reason, and with this view, he
of the man. This business had been very fully discussed last
had made it the subject of so much remark. He agreed, that
year, and those nearly interested had signified the most perfect
something ought to be done with Mr. Yelverton's bill, in
and entire acquiescence in the determination of the British
order to settle the commercial points: and he concluded with
legislature. Many circumstances conspired to fill them with
wishing his majesty's ministers Would not, in any other part
confidence in those who then had the management of govern-
of their conduct, render themselves more reprehensible than
ment. He would declare openly, because he declared it from
they had done in this.
the fullest conviction of the fact, that there never was a govern-
ment in Ireland conducted on more upright and popular prin-
ciples, than that conducted by the Duke of Portland. While
Leave was given to bring in the bill, which afterwards passed
into a law.
he was there, the country was at least free from dissention and
uproar. But now, since another government had taken place,
rumours of destruction were industriously circulated. The
terms prescribed by Ireland, and acceded to by Britain, 96
were all at once inadequate to the satisfaction of her sub-
j ects. The wisest and ablest people on that side the water had
been consulted; and the ministers who were then in'the Ca-
ADDRESS ON THE PRELIMINARY ARTICLES OF PEACE.
billet, acted on their information and ideas. The honour of 1.
these gentlemen had been hitherto deemed unimpeachable
February 17.
and unblemished, and vet here was a measure agitated which
rTHE preliminary articles of peace between Great Britain and
supposed a material miscarriage somewhere. And the ad-
France, and between Great Britain and Spain, were signed
dress to the people of Ireland, was in words somewhat to this
at Versailles on the zoth of January ; and on the z7th copies of
effect: " Your friends have not by any means done by your
the same, and of the provisional treaty with the United States of
so liberally as we will. You think they have done you jus-
America, were laid before both houses of parliament, and after
tice; but you are mistaken, and we will do what you ima-
a short debate, ordered to be printed. Monday, the 17th of Fe-
gined they did." This, he said, was making themselves
bruary, was appointed for taking them into consideration ; and
popular at the expellee of those who had gone before them,
in the intermediate time several motions we're made for such
and, by doing more than was necessary, saying their prede-
papers and documents as might assist the House in deciding on
their merits. On the day appointed upwards of four hundred and
cessors had done less. It ever had, and was still, his con-
fifty members were assembled. After the papers were read, a
firmed opinion, that, by repealing the statute of the 6th of
motion was made by Mr. Thomas Pitt, and seconded by Mr. Wil-
George every thing was amicably settled. ft came up, at
berforce, " That an humble address he presented to his majesty,
least, to all that he had ever conceived as incumbent on this
to return his majesty our most humble thanks for having been
country to Ireland. The repeal was simple, but it was de-
graciously pleased to lay before us the articles of the different
cisive. It would not have been proper to have said, in so
treaties which his majesty has concluded, and to assure his. ma-
many words, that whereas Ireland has been so long under the
jesty that we have considered them with the most Serious atten-
•
tion. To express the great satisfaction and gratitude with which
j urisdiction of this country, be it therefore henceforward de-
we perceive that his majesty, in the exercise of the powers which
clared independent. This was not language that would have
were intrusted to him, has concluded provisional articles with the
been relished by the people of Ireland ; nor on the part of
States of North America on such principles as must, we trust,
Great Britain was it decent to say, that whereas she had
lay the foundation of perfect reconciliation and friendship with
usurped rights which were not hers, she therefore now, and
that country. That, impressed with these sentiments, we cannot
for ever, restored them to their lawful owners. But by an
forbear particularly to lay before his majesty our earliest wish and
actual repeal of that act of the legislature by which such pre-
Just expectation that the several states of North America wil l , in
the amplest and most satisfactory manner, carry into execution
4
J
120
PRELIMINARY ARTICLES OF PEACE.
[Feb. 17.
1783.]
PRELIMINARY ARTICLES or PEACE.
121
those measures which the congress is so solemnly bound by the
was peculiarly delicate. He was supposed to be actuated by
treaty to recommend, in favour of such persons as have suffered
motives of personal pique, and suspected of setting up an Op-
for the part they have taken in the war, a circumstance to which
position to the articles of the peace on grounds of envy, of
we anxiously look as tending to cement that good-will and affec-
jealousy, and of ambition. Those who knew him best would
tion which we trust will uniformly mark the future intercourse
not impute to him such motives; and for the opinion of those
between us. And to assure his majesty, that we are sensible of'
who believed every calumny that was propagated against
his wise and paternal care for the welfare and happiness of his
him, he had but little concern. This, however, was not the
subjects, in relieving them from a long and burthensome war, and
restoring the blessings and advantages of peace, by the preliminary
only delicacy of his situation. Allusions were made to tbr-
articles agreed upon with the courts of France and Spain. To
mer opinions which he had given, and assertions he had made,
assure his majesty, that we indulge the most sanguine hopes, that
in circumstances different from the present, and to which
his subjects, of Great Britain and Ireland will successfully apply
indeed they bore not the smallest affinity. It was proclaimed,
their attention to cultivate and improve by every possible means
as an unanswerable argument against every thing he could
their domestic resources. That with these views we shall apply
say, " did you not some months ago, declare that almost any'
ourselves to a revision of our commercial laws on the most.liberal
peace would be good, would be desirable, and that we must
principles, and in a manner adapted to the present situation of
have peace on any terms." If, said Mr. Fox, I could suffer
affairs, for the purpose of extending our trade and navigation on
the surest grounds, and diligently providing for the maintenance
myself for a moment to be so far led away by conceit, and
of our naval power, which can alone insure the prosperity of these
fancy myself a man of so much importance as to excite the
kingdoms." — An amendment was moved by Lord John Caven-
jealousy of the minister, I might give car to the reports of
dish, by leaving out from the words " and to assure his majesty,
the day, that every measure which the minister adopted,
that," in the first paragraph, to the end of the question, in order
every plan which he formed, every opinion which he took,
to insert these words, " his faithful commons will proceed to con-
and indeed every act of his administration, was calculated
sider the same with that serious and full attention which a subject
and designed to embarrass me. How well might I ascribe
of such importance to the present and future interests of his ma-
the present peace to this motive ! You call fbr peace, says
jesty's dominions deserves : that, in the mean time, they entertain
the noble person, you urge the necessity of peace, you insist
the fullest confidence in his majesty's paternal care, that he will
concert with his parliament such measures as may be expedient
on peace; then peace you shall have, but such a peace, that
for extending the commerce of his majesty's subjects. That what-
you shall sicken at its very name. You call for peace, and
ever may be the sentiments of his faithful commons on the result
I will give you a peace that shall make you repent the longest
of their investigation of the terms of pacification, they beg leave
clay you live, that ever you breathed a wish for peace. I
to assure his majesty of their firm and unalterable resolution to
will give you a peace which shall make you and all men wish
adhere inviolably to the several articles for which the public faith
that the war had been continued, —a peace more calamitous,
is pledged, and to maintain the blessings of peace, so necessary
more dreadful, more ruinous than war could possibly be; and
to his majesty's subjects, and the general happiness .of mankind,"
the effects of which neither the strength, the credit :
instead thereof.— A second amendment was afterwards moved, 4
the
commerce of the nation shall be able to support.
by Lord North, by inserting after the words " Commerce of his
If thi3 was
majesty's subjects," these words, " And his majesty's faithful
the intention of the noble person, he had succeeded to a
commons feel that it would be superfluous to express to his ma-
miracle. His work had completely answered his purpJse;
jesty the regards clue from this nation to every description of men,
for never did I more sincerely feel, nor more sincerely lament
who, with the risque of their lives, and the sacrifice of their pro-
any advice I ever gave in my life, than the advice of getting
perties, have distinguished their loyalty and fidelity during a long
rid of the disastrous war in which the nation was involved.
and calamitous war.' The original address was supported by Mr.
That the minister might have other views was very probable.
Secretary Townshend, Mr. Chancellor Pitt, Mr. Dundas, the So-
That he might think his situation depended upon peace; that
licitor General, and by Mr. Powys, Mr. Bankes, and sonic other
lie might think there was no other way of maintaining a dis-
country gentlemen ; the amendments by Lord North, Mr. Fox,
Mr. Burke, Governor Johnstone, Lord Mulgrave, Sir henry
jointed •system, and fixing himself in a seat, not gained by
Fletcher, Mr. Sheridan, Mr. Adam, and also 'by several of the
the purest means, nor supported by the firmest bottom, was
country gentlemen.
very possible; and it was also very possible that in his eager
pursuit of this object, he has overshot the mark, and neglected
Mr. Fox took up the consideration of the important sub-
to take the steps which could alone secure the end.
ject at great length. His situation, he said, on that clay,
But it was objected to him by the learned lord advocate,
122
PRELIMINARY ARTICLES OP PEACE.
[Feb. 17.
783.]
PRELIMINARY ARTICLES OF PEACE.
123'
that he who had talked of having a peace in his pocket, and
When a man ceases to be what he was, when the opinions
who had been so confident in his declarations that peace
which made him obnoxious are changed, he then is no more
might certainly be obtained, ought to slew that the peace
my enemy, but my friend. The American war was the cause of
which he projected was better than that which was procured.
the enmity between the noble lord and myself. The American
In answer to this he would inform the learned lord, that he
war, and the American question is at an end. The noble lord
had never said that he had a peace in his pocket. He had
has profited from fatal experience. While that system was
averred in his place in that House, that there were persons
maintained, nothing could be more asunder than the noble
in this country, empowered by the congress to treat of peace
lord and myself. But it is now no more; and it is therefore
with America. The fact was so : they had made application
wise and candid to put an end also to the ill will, the animo-
to noble persons, friends of his, to the Duke of Richmond,
sity, the rancour, and the feuds which it occasioned. I am
to Lord Keppe], and to Lord John Cavendish. They had
free to acknowledge, that when I was the friend of the noble
authorised him to mention the fact in his place in that House;
lord in the blue ribbon, I found him open and sincere; when
and it turned-out, as he had declared, that there were per-
the enemy, honourable and manly. I never had reason to
sons properly authorised, and anxious to treat of peace. The 4
say of the noble lord in the blue ribbon, that he practised any
learned lord called upon him to produce the peace which he
of those little subterfiiges, tricks, and stratagems which I
had projected. This was a very loud and sounding word ;
found in others; any of those behind-hand and paltry ma-
but the learned lord not being a cabinet minister, was at
nceuv •es which destroy confidence between human beings, and
liberty to hazard bold things, which, if he was a cabinet mi-
degrade the character of the statesman and the man.
nister, he was pretty sure lie would not do. Will any one
So much, lie said, for the charge which had been made by
of the king's ministers, said Mr. Fox, give me the same dial-
the learned lord. He should have thought it more prudent
lenge ? Will they call upon me to produce the peace? I dare
in that learned person, before he had been so lavish in his
them to do it. I challenge them to do it. They know what
charges, to recollect the place from which he spoke; and that
it is ; they have it in the office. If it is against me, let them .41
he who was so warmly the friend of the noble lord in the blue
take the advantage of it, and hold me up as a man capable
ribbon, and what was worse, of the system he had pursued,
of advising my sovereign to make a worse peace, if possible,
was now as warmly the friend of a system very different, and
than the present.
not less obnoxious. But the learned lord informed the House
I now come, said Mr. Fox, to take notice of the most
that he would always support government, provided lie ap-
heinous charge of all. I am accused of having formed a junc-
proved of their principles ! This he believed to be literally
tion with a noble person, whose principles I have been in
the case; and that he might always support government, he
the habit of opposing for the last seven years of my life. I do 1
had no doubt but the learned lord would take care constantly
not think it at all incumbent upon me to make any answer to
to approve of their principles, whatever they might be, or
this charge : first, because I do not think that the persons,
whoever were the ministers.
who have asked the question, have any right to make the
It was also imputed to him, that he had when in office low-
enquiry; and secondly, because if any such junction was
ered this country before the States of Holland in a very un-
formed, I see no ground for arraignment in the matter. That
becoming manner, and that then there appeared none of those
any such alliance has taken place, I can by no means aver.
proud thoughts, nor that high expectation which he now ex-
That I shall have the honour of concurring with the noble lord
pressed. He had no desire, lie said, to conceal what he had
in the blue ribbon on the present question is very certain ; and
done with regard to the Dutch ; nor if he had such a desire,
if men of honour can meet on points of general national con-
would it be possible for him to gratify it. The letter which he
ce•n, I see no reason for calling such a meeting an unnatural 4
j
had written was public, and all the world knew what had been
unction. It is neither wise nor noble to keep up animosities
his sentiments; he was therefore ready to acknowledge, that
for ever. It is neither just nor candid to keep up animosity
as the Dutch were undoubtedly plunged into this war without
when the cause of it is no more. It is not in my nature to bear
a cause, it was his idea that we ought to make them liberal of-
malice, or to live in My friendships arc perpetual, my en-
fers 6f peace. Such offers were made : but they not only re-
mities are not so. " Amicitice sempiternce, inimicitice placabiles."
jected them, but made such haughty demands, that the policy
I disdain to keep alive in my bosom the enmities which I may
of the thing was changed ; and he and his friends no longer
bear to men, when the cause of those enmities is no more.
t hought them entitled to that favour and friendship which had
1783•]
PRELIMINARY ARTICLES or PEACE.
1.24
pRELI3IINARY ARTICLES OP PEACE.
[Feb. 17.
been honestly proffered. They saw us hampered with many
enemies, and seemed desirous of taking advantage of our situ-
February 19.
ation, to procure terms from us, to which they were not inti-
tied. Then they conceived that the States ought to suffer for
On the igth of February, Mr. Chancellor Pitt expressed his
their want of friendship ; and that as we had been great losers
anxiety to know what the mode of proceeding would be which the
by the war, we ought to look for recompence in the posses-
honourable gentlemen opposite meant to pursue in consequence of
sion of Trincomale, and other objects.
carrying the Amendment. In a matter of so much importance, he
This was clearly his idea still; and if it was true, as it was
believed the usage of parliament rendered it necessary that notice
should be given of the day on which it would be proceeded upon.
rumoured, that the claim was to be abandoned, he should
Lord John Cavendish said, with regard to the day of proceeding
think nothing was wanting to make the present the most dis-
upon the Treaties, it was perfectly indifferent to him. Let minis-
astrous and disgraceful peace, without exception, that ever
ters chuse their own day, and that should be his. An early day
this country had made at any time. They talked of our pre-
must, however, be taken, and the consideration must be seriously
sent circumstances, and referred to his language on a former
gone into, when such parts as called for condemnation, in all pro-
occasion. Were our Circumstances the same now that they
bability, would receive it. Mr. Secretary Townshend said, as long as
were in the month of March last? 'Would any man of com-
he felt himself supported, and his public conduct approved by such
mon sense and common honesty say, they were the same or
a set of respectable and independent gentlemen as had stood for-
ward on Monday last, and voted with him, he was perfectly indif-
similar? He averred, that that which would have been de-
ferent what other combination of parties, what new junction of bo-
sirable then, was not good now. Our state was mended; our
dies of men opposed him. It was by that worthy description of
navy much increased ; while that of the enemy was diminished.
characters, the country gentlemen, that he wished his conduct to
Our fOrce in the 'West Indies was greatly superior to theirs.
be judged; by men connected with no party ; men who followed
The American war, the millstone which hung about our
the whistling of no name ; men who had sense and spirit to judge
necks, was gone ; we had victories of the most brilliant kind ;
for themselves, and did not pin their faith on the sleeves of
the nation had just emerged from its dejection; had just re-
others : to such men's decisions he ever should bow with reve-
covered its high tone of thinking and acting: every pros-*
rence ; and the support of such men he ever should consider as his
pect was rich, and yet, just in this moment of fair expecta-
highest honour. If he must fall, if he must be condemned, let
such men try his cause, and he was sure he should obtainjustice.
tion and honest hope, we are damned at once with a peace,
He was ready to meet any motion the gentlemen opposite to him
,which, perhaps, we shall never be able to recover.
intended to make, and the sooner they brought it forward the
Mr. Fox now went into an examination of the several lead-
better.
ing articles of the peace. The whole was done, he said, upon
the principle of concession. It was every where concession.
Mr. Fox declared he was perfectly astonished at his right
if he wished to lock for reciprocal advantages, no such thing
honourable friend's language. It was the first time he had
was to he found. He said, he would not follow the course of
ever heard a gentleman's conduct was less praise-worthy, be-
many of his friends, in going over minutely the ground of the
cause that gentleman acted in concert with others. This doc-
various cessions which had been made; but he declared upon
trine was not only new to him, but the more extraordinary
his honour, that the terms were obnoxious in the extreme;
considering from whom it came. Had his right honourable
and he pointed out a variety of the most exceptionable pas,-
friend forgot for how many years they had acted together with
sages, and laid his finger on the points which above others
a large party connected upon public principle? Had he to-
were ruinous and fatal to our commerce. He concluded with
tally lost the recollection how often they had in that House
declaring his warm approbation of the amendment of his noble
fought, and how often they had conquered, when acting in
friend.
concert ? Had he always entertained the same sentiments as
those he had just delivered ? Did he think his conduct for-
'The debate lasted till near eight o'clock in the morning, when
merly less honourable than he conceived his conduct of late to
the House divided on the original Address:
have been? Had the many years they had acted together in
Tellers.Tellers.
concert proved the least comfortable of his life ? Did he feel
Lord Mahon
1
S Lord Maitland i
YEAS 1
z 8.—NoEs
•
-
O
s 2211-
Air. Bankes S
t Mr. Byng
himself more happy and more easy where he now sat? Or,
•
The Amendments were consequently carried by a majority of 16.
what was infinitely of higher importance, did he imagine his
I26
RESOLUTIONS OP CENSURE
[Feb. z r.
127
1783.]
ON THE TERMS OF THE PEACE.
country derived more advantages from his services in his present
were entitled to, either from the actual situation of their respective
situation, than they had reaped from his former parliamentary
possessions, or from their comparative strength." The two first
conduct ? These were questions, Mr. Fox said, that naturally
resolutions were agreed to without any opposition. On the third
occurred to his mind ; to say nothing of the vulgar and invi-
a short debate took place, occasioned by doubts having arisen in
dious stile of argument, to which his right honourable friend
the minds of several members, respecting the nature of the power
had adverted ; an evident proof to him, that when men had
vested in the king, by which he had acknowledged the indepen-
dence of the United States. It was demanded, whether it was done
been baffled on one important point, they would have recourse
by virtue of his royal prerogative, or by powers granted by statute ;
to any pretext, to comfort and save themselves from shame.
and, if the latter, by what statute ? In answer to these questions,
But if it was necessary to follow the example, it would be easy
the gentlemen of the long robe were unanimously of opinion, that
for him to prove that the Address the House had voted, had
the statute passed last year, to enable the king to make a peace or
been supported by as many gentlemen of the description just
truce with the colonies in North America, any law, statute, matter,
mentioned, as had voted the other way ; he disdained how-
or thing to the contrary notwithstanding, gave him full power to
ever all such vulgar and invidious distinctions, and-was free
recognize their independence ; though such words had not been
to own, that there were on the other side the House many
inserted in the act, for reasons sufficiently obvious. Other mem-
bers, who agreed with them in opinion as far as it respected the ac-
gentlemen of the highest respectability, whose characters he
•
knowledgment of independence, did not think the statute in ques-
admired, and whose friendship he had thought it an honour
tion granted him any authority to cede to them any part of the pro-
to cultivate, but who nevertheless differed extremely from him
vince of Canada and Nova Scotia. With respect to the powers of
upon political subjects. Let gentlemen exercise the freedom
the prerogative, Mr. Wallace and Mr. Lee maintained that the king
of their minds ; let them judge for themselves : he desired only
could not abdicate a part of his sovereignty, or declare any number
1
to be tried by his public conduct, but he never would admit
of his subjects free from obedience to the laws in being. The con-
that any man's voting with a body, united upon principle,
trary was asserted by the attorney general; and each party pledged
was a matter of reproach,
himself, if the matter should come regularly into discussion, to make
good his opinion. A challenge to the same effect had passed in the
House of Peers between Lord Loughborough and the Lord Chan-
cellor. At length it was proposed to alter the Resolution into the
following form : " That his majesty, in acknowledging the inde-
pendence of the United States of America, by virtue of the powers
vested in him by an act of the last session of parliament, to enable
his majesty to conclude a peace or truce, &c. has acted, &c."
LORD JOHN CAVENDISH'S RESOLUTIONS OP CENSURE ON THE
when it passed without a division :—The fourth Resolution occa-
TERMS or THE PEACE.
sioned a long and vehement debate, in which the same ground was
gone over as on the r 7th.
_February 2 I .
Mr. Fox said:—
THIS being the day fixed for taking into further consideration
I rise, Sir, merely to answer a few observations that have
the articles of peace, Lord John Cavendish moved the follow-
dropped in the course of this debate, in which I cannot but
ing resolutions:
consider that the facts have been misconceived, and the argu-
r. That, in consideration of the public faith, which ought to
ments deduced from those facts totally misapplied and un-
be preserved inviolable, this House will support his majesty, in ren-
dering firm and permanent, the peace to be conducted definitively,
firirly In what I have to say on these particular
in consequence of the provisional treaty and preliminary articles,
points, I shall not trespass long on the patience and attention
which have been laid before the House. 2. That this House will,
of the House at this late stage of the debate. I should have
in concurrence with his majesty's paternal regard for his people,
spoken before, had I not wished to have heard the general
employ its best endeavours to improve the blessings of peace, to the
opinion of the House on this question, before I presumed to
advantage of his crown and subjects. 3 . That his majesty, in ac-
give my sentiments upon it.
knowledging the independence of the United States of America,
The argument which has been used by some honourable
has acted as the circumstances of affairs indispensably required,
gentlemen on the other side of the House against the fourth
and in conformity to the sense of parliament. 4. That the con-
Resolution moved by my noble friend, appears to me the most
cessions made to the adversaries of Great Britain, by the said
provisional treaty and preliminary articles, are greater ,than they
preposterous and chimerical that was ever offered. An
II
128
RESOLUTIONS OF CENSURE
[Feb. 21,
1783.]
ON THE TERMS OF THE PEACE.
129
honourable gentleman (Mr. Macdonald) has said, that the
the enquiry. It is beneath farce itself, to suppose, that we
House coming to a vote of disapprobation on the prelimina-
can abstract the idea of giving an opinion from having exer-
ries and provisional treaty, will be construed by our enemies
cised our judgments. These papers have been the subject
as an absolute intention of parliament not to abide by the
of very serious and ample consideration. We have all form-
articles they contained. The honourable gentleman says that
ed an opinion. And, although I will not say every person
it will be tantamount to a declaration of recommencing the
in this House has this one opinion, yet I believe the excep-
war. Is it then to be understood, that we are inimical to the
t ions are very few, indeed, from those who are not convinced
peace, because on the most deliberate consideration of its
of this peace being most inconsiderate, improvident, and in-
articles, we arc obliged to give our candid opinions, that it is
►dequate to the real and relative interests of the kingdom.
not such a peace as we might reasonably have expected from
If such is the general opinion, why should it not be declared ?
the relative situations of Groat Britain with France and Spain?.
Have we not pledged ourselves to give those sentiments which
I think there cannot be a greater assurance of our pacific
have arisen from the most serious consideration ? If gentlemen
intention than what is conveyed in the principles of this fourth
mean by their opposition to this resolution, that, from the
resolution, as it is connected with that resolution wherein we
papers we have seen, our opinions are imperfect, and therefore
have pledged ourselves to give every stability and permanency
incompetent to pass any vote that may involve in it a cen-
to the peace: for, notwithstanding the peace is, perhaps, the
sure on the noble lord at the head of the administration, why
worst that could possibly have been framed for the real in-
arc not those papers laid before us which might alter our
terests of this nation, yet we have resolved to preserve inviolate
opinions? The papers have been asked for, and, in my
the public faith which has been pledged in this negociation.
opinion, improperly. If this was not my opinion, I should
If there is a possibility of giving an assurance of our inclina-
not hesitate to vote for every paper which contained the least
tions for peace, it cannot be so well conveyed as in the letter
matter of information on the subject. But when I consider
and spirit of this resolution. In the moment that we find the
how impossible it is for me to judge what papers might come
peace so justly deserving of the general reprobation it has re-
before the public, I cannot but approve of their not being call-
ceived, we pledge ourselves to see every iota of it hailed. In
ed for. Were I to call for these papers, I might ask for such
my opinion, the first resolution would not be so strongly ex-
as might prove very dangerous to the interests of the country.
pressive of our inclination to cultivate the friendship, confi-
The minister should produce such papers as he knows not to
dence, and intercourse with our late enemies, were it not fol-
he dangerous; such as are proper to meet the public eye, and
lowed by expressing thus the sense we have of the peace being
will tend to clear the characters concerned in this peace
so inadequate to what our real and relative situation might
from the censure they must otherwise sustain ; but if these
have expected. Thus must France, Spain, and America, con-
papers are withheld, and there are a sufficient number already
sider, that we are determined for peace, indeed, when we can
on the table to afford just ground this resolution, it can
so solemnly pledge ourselves to ratify and validate a negotiation
only be deferred with an intention of its being destroyed ; so
wherein. we find such waste of our interests and possessions.
that I conceive this argument as only meant to impede the
So that every argument upon this principle is the most vague,
performance of that promise which we have given to the pub-
delusive, and nugatory, that it is possible for human reason to
lic. We cannot, if we would, dispense with this resolution,
conceive.
consistently with our own honour, and the duty we owe the
• It is an absurdity too enormous for common sense
people.
to countenance.•
But if this resolution was not so immediately necessary for
Then why is it urged, that this resolution is merely brought
the establishing foreign confidence, it is absolutely indispensi-
forward as a contest for power? Is it a contest for power,
ble for preserving internal consistency. Did we not in our
that we appear desirous of performing our engagements with
vote of Monday last imply, that we would give an opinion
the nation ? Can it be construed into a contest for power in
upon the preliminaries and provisional treaty which have been
the noble lord who brings forward this resolution ? Is my noble
laid before us? WI): proceed to a consideration of these
friend to be considered ambitious for power, who has always
papers, if the conside
been known to avoid rather than to court official employment?
r ation of them must pass without an
opinion ? It is mocking the general business of parliament, to
Surely no ! If Ile has a blemish to foil his.eminent virtues, it is
presume that we should meet for the purpose of enquiring
that of receding from those places where his ability and inte-
in-
grity might promote the interests of his country. I am certain
to these papers, without giving our opinion as the result of
VOL. 11.
4
130
ItESOLTJTIONS Or CENSURE
[Feb. 21„
1783.]
ON THE TERMS OF THE PEACE.
131
there is not a gentleman in this House, possessing the smallest
men, whose principles are the basis on which the state has for
degree of candour, who can attribute such a base and pitiful
a long time past been preserved from absolute destruction. It
motive to the noble lord. Were not the insinuation as per-
is to the virtues of these men that I have surrendered my pri-
verse as it is contemptible, the character of my noble friend
vate opinions and inclinations. It is thus only that I could
would have saved his resolution from such a paltry and disin-
prevent myself from falling into those errors which the preju-
genuous aspersion. But it is trifling with the time and atten- .
dices, passions, and perplexities of human nature, will, at times,
bon of the House, to give this assertion a serious reply. All
occasion. And, thus I have been always answerable to my
I shall say upon this part of the subject is, that the purpose
country for my conduct ; for in every public transaction I have
for which it is hazarded can in no manner be successful. If it
thought it most safe to resign my private opinion, when I
is meant to save the first lord of the treasury from the disgrace
found it departing from the general opinion, of those with whom
of his measures, there needs not this resolution to pass while
I was connected by friendship, confidence, and veneration.
the memory of the peace on your table remains in the minds of
Those whose virtues claimed my respect, and whose abilities
the people. Or if it supposes, that putting aside this resolu-
my admiration, could not but prove the best directors of a
tion will be the means of preserving the present system, I trust
conduct, which, alone, might fall by its temerity, or be lost
that it is too generally known in this House, that this resolu-
by temptation.
tion is not necessary to destroy an administration which is al-
And now I must beg leave to say a few words on what I
ready fallen. And here I must express my regret for my ho-
feel of the most serious nature, as far as it relates to the com-
nourable friend below (Sir Cecil Wray) having seen any
placency of my own feelings. The sentiments which have
thing in our conduct this evening to have excited in him
fallen from gentlemen, of whom I had flattered myself to
sentiments and expressions that I trust his reflection will con-
have possessed the friendship and good opinion, have occa-
demn. I lament the loss of his confidence, because he pos-
sioned in me a retrospect of my past conduct. I have re-
sesses my friendship; but I can only attribute it to a total mis-
viewed my conduct with a severity of retrospect, that I should
understanding of the principle of this resolution ; otherwise I
scarcely have endured, had it not been from a conviction that
am confident he would never have thus sounded the alarum of
I really committed a fault which merited the most painful of
independency, and have quitted that cable of friendship which 1
all feelings—that of losing the support and approbation of
should have hoped would have never been parted : so that I will
men, whose virtues I reverence, and whose good opinions it
not condemn his behaviour, although I must lament the loss
is my greatest pride and happiness to cultivate. But, however
of his approbation. I am assured of the honesty of his inten-
painful this severity of retrospect may have proved, I find it
tion, while I question the propriety of his conduct. What he
amply compensated in the pleasure every honest mind feels,
has said, goes against the forming of any administration ; and
when it can bear testimony to the purity and consistency of its
it shews, that he has not been much used to the making of
intentions. As no inquisition can be so formidable to sensi-
ministers.
bility as that which our own reflection holds on our actions,
An honourable gentleman on the other side of the House,
the result of my enquiry is attended with an increase of satis-
(Mr. Powys) thought proper to censure the coalition of parties
fitetion proportionate to the pain I felt for its necessity, and
in a former debate. Indeed, he has mentioned them again in
fear, lest I should find myself deserving of what I have this
the present; but I trust this censure is undeserved. What-
night so painfully experienced : I mean the forfeiture of
ever coalition of parties there may be, has arisen from the
friendship, support, and confidence, where I have always sought
necessity of men uniting for the purpose of preserving the
its enjoyment. It is only from such characters . as have my es-
constitution of the country inviolate from the attack of an in-
teem, that I have sought support and connection. However, I
dividual, who has had the temerity to act more from his own
find myself this evening deserted by those whom I- thought
dictates, than from the principles of the constitution, or th .
never to have given a pretence for losing their estimation ; and
necessities of the country. If ever the situation of a country
!he regret I experience on the occasion would be insupportable
required a coalition of parties that could preserve the vigour
indeed, were it not from a consciousness of its being unde-
of the state from debility, it is that of the present. I trust
served. And this conviction is in a great measure confirmed
there can be no necessity for argument to enforce this, while
by what I have seen since I receded from that administration,
those preliminaries, and that provisional treaty, lie on your
in which there was no principle of stability and connection to.
table. I am free to boast of being connected, with a set of
Support it, with honour to itself and welfare to the people.,
12
DC 2
13 2
At SOLUTIONS OF CENSURE
[Feb. 21.
1783.]
ON THE TERMS OF THE PEACE.
133
That we were justified in our receding from such an adminis-.
that our navy was inadequate to any service on which it was
tration, has been daily evinced by those who have since fol-
dispatched ? Has there been any one offensive or defensive
lowed our example. Have not those, who were deluded by
measure declined in consequence of our navy being incompe-
pretence, not confirmed by principle to take share with a man
tent to. the duty ? If this can be proved., then 1 shall most
whom they now see the absolute necessity of deserting, proved
chearfully consent to lose this resolution. I will even join
the necessity of our conduct ? It can be no small satisthction
those who are now so forward in the praises of a peace, which,
to me to see those follow my conduct, whom, indeed, I could
to every man of common sense, is the most disgraceful and dis-
rather have chosen to follow. Can there be a greater demon-
advantageous of any this country can produce. I will even
stration of the propriety of our conduct, than seeing others re-
join them in their loudest praises. There is nothing their
ceding one by one from a connection which has betrayed every
enthusiasm can suggest in its favour, but I will most readily
principle on which their confidence was founded ?
subscribe to. But while I am confident that no-such proof
But while I produce these as indisputable arguments in fa-
can be brought, I must contend for the necessity and pro-
vour of the propriety of our resignation, and opposing the
priety of this resolution.
measures which have been since pursued to the disgrace and
And now permit me to mention, that this assertion is not
injury of the country, I shall not disavow my having an
only destitute of evidence and veracity, but even of common
ambition to hold such a situation in office, as may enable me
gratitude and candour. It has originated from those who
to promote the interest of my country. I will confess, that
are known to be under the greatest obligations to that noble
am desirous of enjoying an eminence which must flatter my
and honourable character they are thus endeavouring to de-
ambition, promote my convenience, and enable me to exert
preciate. But not to say any thing farther on this disagree-
myself in my country's service; and in confessing this desire, I
able part of the subject, has it the least support from the com-
trust that it cannot be termed presumption. I flatter myself that.
parison of facts and circumstances ? Would the noble lord
I am not inadequate to the importance-of such a situation ; nor
(Keppel) have been so ready to resign his place because he
do I think that I gave, during the short time I held a respec-
disapproved of the peace, had he been sensible of our naval
table place in administration, any reason why I should not
inability for war? Is he to be considered so much an ad-
offer myself a candidate for a share in that new arrangement
vocate for war, that he would absolutely risque his own cha-
which the late neglectful, not to give a worse epithet, conduct
racter to imputation, if not merited disgrace and dishonour?
of the first lord of the treasury has rendered indispensible.
Surely nothing can demonstrate the falsity and malice of this
But this is a subject which I think more prudent to wave,
assertion so incontrovertibly, as the first lord of the ad-
than to enforce by adducing arguments, or referring to in-
miralty having resigned his employment. Had he not been
stances.
confident of the condition of the fleet being adequate to every
I shall now take an opportunity of observing some particu-
relative service of war, he would have been sensible of the
lars, in answer to what has fallen from an honourable member
impropriety of opposing a peace. He must have seen the
(Mr. Keith Stewart) relative to the state of our navy not being
folly and danger of such a conduct, from the knowledge of
such as to countenance the continuance of the war. He says,
the destruction it might bring on the country, and the dis-
that the accounts of the relative state of our navy are untrue;
grace it would, consequently, bring upon himself. But, how-
it neither was, nor is in that condition in which it has been
ever, not to adduce any more arguments to controvert an as-
represented. But this assertion does not go so far against
sertion that has no other foundation than error, malice, and
our disapprobation as some other arguments that were made
ingratitude, I shall proceed to state some facts which prove
in this and the Upper House in the course of last Monday's de-
the state of our navy being in a condition sufficiently power-
bate. It was then positively asserted, that the real state of
ful for any relative operation in war. It will prove that the
our navy was represented far superior to its actual condition;
first lord of the admiralty, I mean my noble friend, had just
that it was by no means adequate to the services to which it
reason for his confidence in its competency. Whatever in-
was allotted in its several destinations ; that some ships were
jorrnation the honourable member (Mr. Keith Stewart) may
foul, others rotten, and others not stored. But these are in-
have received respecting the superior state of our enemies
stances that can be adduced in every fleet; they are as equally
power, I will pledge myself to produce authentic and. indis-
applicable to our enemies as to ourselves. But the candid and
putable evidence, that in the course of last year our navy in-
fair statement of the subject would he this. Can it be proved
creased seventeen in its number, while that of France had suf-
K 3
I
1 34
BEsOLUTIONS OP CENSURE
[Feb. 21.
1783.]
ON THE TERMS OF THE PEACE,
I3;
fered a diminution of thirteen. Admiral Pigot would have
Asia. By the boundaries which have been so carelessly pre-
had by this time fifty-four sail of the line in the West Indies.
scribed, we have excluded ourselves from the Mississippi ;
This would have been such a force for every defensive and
so that we only retain the name, without being able to enjoy
offensive purpose, as the situation of those seas might have
its possession. We have lost West Florida, and ceded the
required or permitted. We might then have been perfectly
East to compleat our loss of American territory. And, in
at ease with regard to the safety of those possessions, especi-
this last cession, in a treaty for peace, we have given Spain
ally when the state of the Spanish navy was considered, and
the greatest temptation for war. We have resigned to them
that we had also remaining at home thirty-four ships of the
those advantages which were always their annoyance and ter-
line. If such is the situation of our navy, as I pledge my-
ror. In this as well as in every other part of this negocia-
self to prove, can there be a pretence for vindicating the ne-
tion, that first principle of treaty has been totally disregarded.
cessity of those enormous cessions which lie before us on the
The retention of places, the relative power of which is to
table?
check the operations of war, is the best security for the pre-
I might, on this occasion, repeat the arguments which
servation of peace. In the West Indies we have restored the
have been already adduced to show the little attention which
Island of St. Lucia, besides ceding and guaranteeing the Island
has been paid to the interest and feelings of the country in
of Tobago; but as a compensation for this latter cession, we
this negociation. But this would be only engaging the
have the Islands of Nevis and Montserrat; therefore what has
attention of the House to what they must have already
been restored to us by France in the \\Vest Indies, cannot at
formed an opinion on, in consequence of the able argu-
all be considered as a compensation for St. Lucia. We may
ments that have been offered upon the consideration of
be said to have only for restoring this invaluable island to the
the preliminaries and provisional treaty. However, I
French, Grenada, the Grenadines, St. Vincent, and Dominica.
must observe that, in this negociation, our enemies have
And for all our acknowledgments, cessions, and restorations
exacted our possessions, without paying that tenderness to our
in America, we are only possessed of the Bahamas. In Africa
feelings which they have always affected to pay in similar ne-
we have ceded and guaranteed to France the river Senegal
gociations. There does not appear in this negociation the
and all its dependencies, with the forts of St. Louis, Podor,
least circumstance to flatter our sacrifice of honour as well as
Galam, Arguin, and Portendie; and to compleat this Afri-
possession. The papers before us bear too evident signs
can cession, we have engaged to restore the island of Goree.
of the disregard and negligence with which they have been
And in return for all the forts, the river Senegal with de-
settled. But while they contain every mark of humility, igno-
pendencies, and Goree, France has only guaranteed to us
miny, and disadvantage to this country, they evidently chew
Fort James and the river Gambia. The dependencies of
the triumph and superiority of our enemies. For prima fizcie,
the river Gambia are to be understood as included in this
we find every advantage given to our enemies, and not one
guarantee, where we have been too careless to have them
solid and real advantage retained or restored to ourselves.
specified in the same manner as in our cession to France.
We have granted to the Americans the privilege of fishing
In Asia we are engaged to restore France all the establish-
on the only part of Newfoundland, which is left us by our
ments which belonged to them, at the commencement of the
cession to France. It true they are excluded from the
war, on the coast of Orixa, and in Bengal: besides granting
privilege of drying their fish on our territories; but this is
them the liberty of surrounding Chandernagore, with a ditch
merely a negative advantage; it includes no positive in-
for draining the waters. We are likewise engaged to take
terest: for since France has a privilege of part of this island,
such measures as shall secure to the subjects of France, in
it will be very easy for America to fish with us, and dry
that part of India, and on the coast of Orixa, Coromandel,
them, by permission, on French territories. Thus it is
and Malabar, a safe, free, and independent trade. In the
evident, that our fishery, so much boasted, in Newfound-
next article, we restore Pondicherry and Karical. We like-
land is, in a manner annihilated ; not to mention the MI-
wise procure as a dependency to this restoration the two dis-
pOlicy of ceding St. Pierre and Miquelon, all the posses-
tricts of Valanour, Bahour, and the four Magans. France
sions that we have reserved are only such as tend to create
also enters again into the possession of Mahe and the Comp-
jealousies which may be pretences for war at a future period.
Lou' at Surat. In Asia, all this we grant without the least
But to take a general view of this peace, we find it contains
cession received from France; and, notwithstanding, all this
a sacrifice of our chief possessions in America,' Africa, and
profusion of liberality is incompetent to preserve the peace
4
136
RESOLUTIONS OF CENSURE
[Feb. 21.
1783.]
ON THE TERMS OF THE PEACE.
137
from suspension and interruption. By the sixteenth article
_And, here, Sir, I shall take notice of an argument offered
we are exposed to the continuance of the war as much as if
by an honourable gentleman, to prove that this peace is, not-
we had not restored an inch of right, privilege, or possession
withstanding every evidence to the contrary that has been
in those parts to France. In Europe we have consented to
produced, deserving of our approbation : nay, that it has
the abrogation and suppression of all the - articles relative to
even received virtually, if not positively, our applause; for
Dunkirk, from the treaty of Utrecht, in 1713, to this period
the honourable gentleman says, that in our second resolution,
inclusively. This has been entered upon without the least
we have pledged our endeavours to cultivate the blessings of
pretence or appearance of equivalent. From this real state
that peace, which we mean, by this fourth resolution, to cen-
of the negociation, can we have a possibility of withholding
sure and condemn. Surely, said he, this peace must have
our assent to this resolution ? Are not all these American,
received our approbation, when we have acknowledged that
African, Asian, and European cessions, sufficient evidence that
it has blessings, which we are pledged to cultivate; and that
the peace is not so favourable to the interests of the kingdom,
it is, likewise, self-evident, that a peace must deserve our ap-
as our relative state and strength required ? We may repre-
probation, to which the word blessing can, with any pro-
sent our own debility, to prove the necessity of a peace.
priety, be annexed. I wish the honourable gentleman had
But, in our approbation of this peace, it must be demon-
annexed the word blessings to this peace with the least pro-
strated, that from our relative debility a better peace we could
priety'. But he will pardon me in saying, that he misrepre-
neither expect nor obtain. If our finances were straitened,
sents the words and meaning of this second resolution. The
it remains to be proved, that the finances of our enemies were
word blessings is connected with the general idea and mean-
not equally exhausted. Do we not know that France never
ing of a peace. My noble friend who moved the resolution,
supported a war with more difficulty; that Spain was nearly
could never have so much mistaken this peace, as to have
in a state of national bankruptcy; and that America was
annexed blessings as its consequence. Let the honourable
in state of national poverty ? But this last I adduce not as
gentleman attend to the words of the resolution, and he will
an instance of the policy of the American war. I am con-
find his position has been very unfairly stated and errone-
vinced that, although she was without resource, yet her una-
ously conceived. He will find the words are, 64 the blessings
nimity, her enthusiasm in the cause of her independence,
of peace," and riot of this peace. But in regard to the real
would be sufficient to repel the united forces of all Europe.
intention of thus pledging ourselves to cultivate the blessings
It was from this opinion, that I have always reprobated a
of peace, it is only a necessary assurance of our wishes and
war that was as ridiculous in its object as it was unjust in its
endeavours to render it reciprocally advantageous, by which.
principle. However, this is by no means a palliative foe
means its permanency can only be preserved. It is a pledge
this enormous cession for which this peace has been obtained.
that we mean to enter upon the consideration of our com-
For, although it might be impossible to have conquered
mercial system, in order to make such regulations as the
America, yet her being destitute of resource gave us a great
alteration of our empire, and the creation of the states, may
advantage, when considered relatively, as she was in alliance
require: for it is only by such a resolution that we can pal-
with France and Spain. From this knowledge, we might
liate the neglect of administration, in having made this peace,
have seen the policy and power of withdrawing our troops
without having to produce the least sign, intention, or ap-
from America, had the war necessarily continued. lvVe might
pearance, of a commercial plan adapted to the altered in-
have directed them against France and Spain as an accession
terests of the empire. It is thus that we can only assure
of strength, without fearing its being counterbalanced ley any
France, Spain, and America, of our sincerity to keep in-
assistance they could derive from _America. Without re-
violate the public faith, -which is pledged in the preliminaries
source for her own exigencies, she could have no power of
and provisional treaty. And here I cannot avoid observing
granting subsidies to them. All the assistance which she might
the attempt to impose this peace upon our credulity and judg-
have lent to them could be only a few troops, that, in fact,
ment, as being negociated on the principle of the uti possidelis.
could prove of no great advantage, while we had the policy
-lad this really been the principle of its negociation, France
to confine ourselves to the object of a naval war. It is,
would neither have been in possession of the Newfoundland
therefore, most clearly apparent, that we had every right to,,
fishery, nor would she have had a foot of East Indian ter-
expect a more advantageous peace than what is under o
ritory. But, indeed, the absurdity of such a pretence is evi-
consideration.
dent,: from the situation of the country being represented as
138
RESOLUTIONS OF CENSURE
[Feb. 2r.
I 783.3
ON THE TERMS OF THE PEACE.
totally different from what is the foundation of the uti possi-
and permanent acquisitions. They would not have lain
'detis. And here I must state the two principles which direct
within the minister's power of restoring. Since I see such
every negociation. The one is the uti possidetis; the other,
a general cession and restoration of what had cost the coun-
reciprocal and general restitution. Reciprocal and general
try so much blood and treasure to retain and possess, I can-
restitution directs and governs a negociation for peace, when
not but lament the offensive war we have waged. Had we
the belligerent powers have equal desire and reason for con-
taken less, less had there been to have restored. So that at
cluding the war. It is then they find it their interest to re-
least we should have saved much disgrace in proportion as
instate each other reciprocally in the possessions they have
the articles would have contained a less appearance of ces-
lost. The uti possidetis is the-principle of negociation when
sion and restoration. Who that views the preliminaries
either of the belligerent powers. are the conquerors. It is
and provisional treaty will not blush for the ignominy of the
then the vanquished are obliged to submit to the loss of their
national character it will hand down to posterity ! Who
possessions. As they have not power, they assume not the
could have supposed, that such a treaty would have been
pretence of demanding restitution. They are, therefore, con-
concluded in 1783, as the consequence of our successes in
tent to purchase peace with the loss of what their enemy has
the year 1782 !
taken, because they know their imbecility to support war.
And now I would beg leave to say a few words in answer
But in the present negociation we have all the dishonour of
to what has fallen from an honourable baronet (Sir Edward
the uti possidetis were it against us, and all the disadvantage
Astley), respecting two pensions that were granted by the
of partial, not reciprocal restitution. To consider the peace
late first lord of the treasury : I mean the Marquis of Rock-
in a relative point of view, we shall find that France retains
ingham. Happy am I that such an opportunity is given me
what she has taken from us, and receives a general restitution
of vindicating his memory from any aspersion which might
of all we have taken from her. Never was a peace so negli-
otherwise adhere to it. The honourable baronet has been
gently, disgracefully, and injuriously concluded for this nation.
pleased to say, that we had not enquired into those shainefill,
Surely, nothing can account for it so clearly as a retrospect
extravagant, and unmerited pensions which were granted by
On the minister's conduct and consequence with whom our
the administration we succeeded, because we had committed
enemies were to negotiate. It is evident our enemies were
the same lavishment of the public money ourselves. As far
sensible of his not having that support and confidence which
as the pensions to which he alludes relate to my conduct,
was necessary to invigorate the arm of war against them.
I have only to answer, they were granted without my appro-
They were sensible, that he was conscious of his own tot-
bation; for I am free to confess, that I did not altogether
tering power, and, therefore, they, with their usual sagacity
approve of the necessity or the principle of these pensions:
and penetration, perceived it was the happy moment for their
but although they might not have entirely my consent, yet.
demands and our concessions. It is thus that we learn the
the accusation comes rather improperly, as a reflection against
foreign character and estimation of the minister. The pre-
our conduct. The pensions were not granted to those who
liminaries and provisional treaty is a foreign lesson to teach
merited our regard, either from attachment, principle, or
us domestic caution and information.
•
service in our interest. We granted them to the friends and
It has been urged as a mark of our weakness, that the ge-
adherents of those who were known to profess sentiments
neral system of the war has been more of a defensive than
totally distinct from what we had adopted. But humanity
offensive nature. Happy am I to find we have not waged a
and liberality were the characteristic features of the de-
general offensive war, according to the system on which the
ceased marquis's disposition. He was of a temper too dis-
war was conducted. The view of the peace before me is
interested to reward his Own adherents with such pecuniary
sufficient reason for my approving the policy and necessity of
gratuities. It was his principle, to retain the attachment of
our war being generally defensive: for had we waged offen-
his friends, not by mercenary benefits, but by his conduct
sive war with success against forts, garrisons, and islands, we
commanding their affection : and merit and necessity, even
should only have had the more to have returned at the nego-
In those who were inimical to himself and connections, had
tiation for peace. Could we have confined our operations
always a claim to his-assistance. It was by this irresistible
against ships instead of forts, garrisons, districts, and islands,
conduct that he conciliated his enemies and retained his
then we should have retained whatever we might have had
friends. It was not his.object in possessing power, to enrich
the good fortune to have taken. These would have been real
mercenary dependents, at the expellee of the public. He
1 4 0
RESOLUTIONS OF CENSURE
[Feb. 21.
178•]
ON THE TERMS OF TILE PEACE.
i4I-
took power, not for plundering, but preserving and promot-
inoting the general welfare by a permanent union. This
ing the properties and privileges of the people. So that the
administration has been destroyed through want of confidence.
honourable baronet has with great impropriety adverted to
It is, therefore, the greatest absurdity to think of preserving
these pensions, as an instance of corruption in one of the
the station of a man who is unsupported by every friend and
most able and virtuous ministers that ever did or ever will
advocate for the constitution. I believe there is scarcely an
direct a state.
individual in this House, who would give his unbiassed sup-
It has been mentioned as an argument against the present
port to the present premier. Is there any one who could
resolution, that the decision to which we came last Tuesday
think of supporting a man who has in every possible manner
morning, has been the cause of the ambassadors now in town
trifled away the general, absolute, and relative interests of the
delaying the conclusion of the treaty. It is said, that they
country? Has he riot, as we have too evidently seen, made
have expressed a shyness to conclude what remains to perfect.
concessions in every part of the globe without the least pre-
the negotiation, alledging, that they perceive from the de-
tence of equivalent? Then let it not be said, that such a com-
termination of the House,' their disinclination to fulfil the
bination against a minister is unconstitutional: and while it
articles; and that we have only entered upon this negotiation,
is acknowledged, that the king by his prerogative possesses
merely as a cessation of hostilities. But, instead of thus un-
the right of ministerial appointment, let it be remembered,
candidly stating such a position, would it not have'been more
that the people can by their privilege annul that appointment.
consistent with the truth, to have attributed this conduct to
It is only thus, that we can derive the means of restoring the
their diffidence in the administration, possessing long enough
abused confidence of the people. It is only coalition that can
the power of compleating the negotiation. Is it not more
restore the shattered system of administration to its proper
wise and prudent in them, to suspend their commissions for
tone of vigorous exertion. By this means we shall regain-the
treaty until they sec an administration so firmly established,
lost confidence of the people: and it is only that confidence
as may give a due, and proper validity to the negotiation?
that can give effect to the springs of government. I trust
It would he very hasty and premature conduct in them, to
there is now a prospect of reviving and establishing the system
express any eagerness at this momentf vicissitude, to finish
of which I have so long been proud of considering myself a
the ratification.
member. There is now, I trust, a certainty of the present
An honourable gentleman took occasion in a former debate
nugatory and shattered system being repaired, and rendered
to censure a coalition of parties. How far this censure was
sufficiently strong to bear the interests of the people. Now
proper, the necessities of a coalition of every party that would
the sense of the nation is awake to conviction. They will no
J oin to destroy that party which has been so destructive to
longer lend their assent to the destruction of their Own wel-
the country will discover. But were there not this necessity
fare. The obnoxious part of administration must recede
for coalition, 1 cannot see the propriety of censuring our ac-
froth the countenance of his sovereign. He has neither the .
cepting of the support, and according with the sentiments of
sanction of people or parliament, or, indeed, his wonted col-
the noble lord, (North). It is true, there was a period in
leagues. So that froth these considerations, I have the fullest
which I have treated the conduct of the noble lord with that
assurances of seeing the interests of the nation once more
disapprobation which I should again use on the same occasion :
placed on that foundation which can only save it from
but the cause of this disapprobation is now removed. The
destruction.
Americans are no ‘v independent. We have no longer a pre-
It is only from the coalition of parties, for the honest pur-
tence nor inclination for continuing the war which I felt the
pose of opposing measures so destructive to the interests of
necessity of reprobating. The cause of disunion no longer
the country, that the spirit of constitutional power can ever
subsists; and the situation of the country calls loudly for then4
be restored to its former vigour. It becomes men to forget
strongest coalition, which may reinstate the people in their
private resentments, when the cause of the nation calls so
rights, privileges, and possessions. We have a minister, who
immediately for public unanimit y. Besides, is it not an indi-
is in his nature, habitudes, and principles, an enemy to the
cation of our principles having been directed for this one end,
privileges of the people. And as I am convinced, that no
the general good, although we have pursued different means
system can exist which is not supported by a fair, consistent,
for its acquisition ? And as the cause of the country may have
and established unanimity, I am happy to join with any
induced that personal asperity, which seemed to have occa-
party which I think has the abilities and .intentions of pro,
sioned a mutual enmity, that implied an impossibility of its
142 COALITION OF MR. FOX AND LORD NORTH, &c. [March 5.
783.] COALITION OF MR. PDX AND LORD NORTH, &C. 143
ever being destroyed; so it may be perceived that the cause
chancellor, whose dismission was a point insisted on by the coali-
of the country can with the greatest facility turn that enmity
tion, was the principal cause that retarded the new arrangements
into confidence and friendship. From this view of the sub-
On the 5 th of March the secretary at war brought up the mu-
ject, it may very welt appear what the situation of the coun-
tiny bill, which being read a first time,
try must be, which is sufficient to unite men of such different
Mr. Fox begged leave to say a few words on this bill,
descriptions as myself and the noble lord. By this I mean
which, however, he did not mean to oppose or delay in its
not the least reflection on the principles of the noble lord, but
present stage. Gentlemen knew very well that a standing
rather the sentiments that so long occasioned that war which
army in this country was unconstitutional; this was a princi-
has ended so unhappily. But this is past, and I trust the
ple which the annual passing of a mutiny bill was calculated
consequence of the coalition will be the salvation of the
country.
to keep fresh in the memory of parliament; but if it was un-
constitutional to keep a standing army at all, surely it must
The debate continued till half past three in the morning, when
be infinitely more so to vote an army, when there was not a
the House divided :
single person in the kingdom to be responsible for the govern-
Tellers.
Tellers.
ment of that army ; and yet this was the case at present ; the
{Lord Maitland'
{Lord Mahon
House being called upon to vote an army, when there was
S
YEAS
1
N
l3yng
j 20^.--NOES
Mr. Macdonald S i9°`
not a cabinet or minister to be responsible for the manage-
Majority for censuring the terms of the peace 17.
ment or direction of it. Now, in this situation of affairs, he
might suppose a case, in which this bill might, if passed,
enable somebody to do what people had within these few days
heard of without doors, namely, to dissolve the parliament: for
his own part, he declared, upon his honour, he did not be-
lieve there was a man in the kingdom desperate enough to
COALITION or MR- Fox AND LORD NORTH—RESIGNATION
advise such a measure. However, as it was possible there
OF THE EARL OF SIIELBURNE —NEW MINISTRY.
• might be a man so lost to every sense of duty, so daring, and
so desperate, as to think of such a measure, he thought it
March 5.
would be prudent to guard against his counsels, by stopping
the bill for some time in the House. The delay could not be
N consequence of the censure passed on the peace by the reso-
long, as it was impossible things could remain long in their
1 lutions of the House of Commons on the asst of February, the
Earl of Shelburne quitted his office of first commissioner of the
present unsettled state; and the bill might be afterwarda
treasury, and the chancellor of the exchequer (Mr. Pitt,) de-
passed time enough to receive the royal assent before the ex-
clared publicly in the House, that he only held his place till a
piration of the last mutiny bill.
successor should be appointed to fill it. A ministerial interreg-
num ensued, which lasted till the beginning of April ; during
In reply to Mr. Fox, the secretary at war assured the House
which time the kingdom remained in a state. of great disorder ;
he would give timely notice of the second reading of the bill.
without any responsible government at home, the finances neglect-
ed, the military establishments unreduced, and the negociations
with foreign powers, which the critical conjuncture of affairs ren-
March 6.
dered peculiarly important, entirely at a stand. Various causes
were assigned for the extraordinary delay in the appointment of a
Mr. Powys moved, " That his majesty's message of the zd of
new administration. Those who wished to shift all blame from
Alay last. be read, and afterwards the subsequent proceedings pf
the court, alledged, that the chief obstacle arose from the mutual
the House at a few days distance." The clerk having read the*
jealousy which still subsisted between the newly-allied parties,
passages of the Journals, Mr. Powys moved, " That an humble
and the difficulties they found in adjusting their several pretensions.
address be presented to his majesty, most humbly to represent,
Others supposed, that the interval was employed in private in-
that whereas his majesty has from his paternal regard to the wel-
trigues with the individuals of different parties, and in an attempt
fare of his people, and his desire to avoid imposing any new bur_
to form an administration independent of the great leading con-
thenupon the public, been graciously pleased to suppress the se-
nections. Others again did not hesitate to assert, that on the
veral offices mentioned in his majesty's message to this House in
failure of this attempt, the influence possessed by the lord high
the last session of parliament, and has likewise given his royal as-
144 COALITION or MR. FOX AND LORD NORTH, &C. [March 6.
1783.] COALITION OF MR. FOX AND LORD NORTH, 8" 145
sent to an act fir carrying the said most gracious design into full
be thrown out of employment. The last was a pension of 3501. a
execution, and for regulating the granting of pensions, and pre-
year promised by the last administration to the secretary of Sir
venting all abuses or excess therein : this House trusts, that the
Guy Carleton.
same restrictions will be observed in respect to any pension his
majesty may be advised to grant antecedent to the fifth day of
Mr. Fox supported the motion, as the House must be con-
April, as by the said act are thenceforth strictly and absolutely
prescribed." In the conversation that took place on this motion,
vinced from what they had heard that it was peculiarly neces-
it was strenuously urged on one side, that though, for reasons
sary. He thanked the worthy member for having moved it,
which were deemed sufficient at the time, the operation of the act
and agreed with him in the wish that it had been made
had been postponed till the 5 th of April 1 783, yet it was generally
earlier. He said, he had no inclination to disturb or revoke
understood, that the spirit of the act was binding on the king's
any of the pensions that had been so fairly stated to the House
thinisters from the day on which it was brought into the house ;
by the right honourable gentleman, but there was something
and that the noble marquis, under whose administration it passed,
in the right honourable gentleman's mode of defending them,
had declared this to have been his opinion. Mr. Chancellor Pitt
that gave him serious alarm. In the first place, he did not at
was therefore called on to inform the House whether there was any
all approve of the name of his majesty having been so fre-
foundation for the rumour which prevailed, and on which the mo-
tion had been grounded, that a great variety of pensions had been
quently introduced ; it certainly was disorderly, and the put-
lately granted to a very considerable amount. In answer to this
ting every act of the ministry upon the personal promise of
question, the minister first observed, that he could not subscribe
the king, took away the responsibility, which the constitution
to the doctrine he had just heard ; that the spirit of the act was
had placed on the advisers of the crown, and rendered it a
binding on him before the time fixed by the express letter of the
very difficult matter for members of that House to do their
law. The object of the act was to take away a power, which the
duty to the public. It was, Mr. Fox declared, of all other
crown had otherwise an undoubted legal right to exercise ; but by
matters the most delicate and the most disagreeable to speak
limiting its restrictive operation to a future fixed period, the spirit
to measures,. with which persons were so intimately connect-
of the law rather tended to sanction the intermediate exercise of
that power. He then entered into a detail and vindication of the
ed, that however any thing invidious and personal might be
different pensions that had been lately; or were then in the course
fairly disclaimed, and disclaimed upon the honour of the
of being granted. The first, he said, was a pension of 30001. to
speaker, the world was apt to separate the person from the
the lord chancellor, to whom a grant in reversion had also been
measure, and to impute warrantable parliamentary objection
given of a tellership of the exchequer, in consequence of a former
to the former, to envy or private pique against the latter.
promise given him by the king. -The propriety of making a per-
With regard to the lord chancellor, he had long lived, and
manent provision for this great law officer had been at all times so
he hoped to continue to live with him, on terms of sincere
universally acknowledged, that he did not think it necessary. to
private friendship; that noble and learned lord undoubtedly
trouble the House with a particular justification of this pension.
possessed great abilities, but perhaps he was of opinion, that
The second was a pension of 20001. a year to . Lord Grantham.
This, he said, had been granted at the particular instance of his
those abilities were not exerted in a manner most beneficial,
majesty, and was to cease whenever he was in possession of any
but on the contrary, in a manner most disadvantageous and
place of greater or equal emolument. That noble lord, at-
most injurious to the true interests of the country. That
the end. of an eight years embassy, had refused to receive the
the lord chancellor ought to be provided for, if he was to
emoluments usually continued to those offices ; and when called
resign his high office, was a matter so obviously proper, that
to take on him the post of a secretary of state, his majesty had
no man could offer an objection to that proposition. He
been pleased to promise him a pension of 20001. whenever he should
should have liked the mode of providing for that noble lord,
quit that situation. The third vas another pension of l000l. to Sir
h owever, better, had it not been rested by the right honour-
Joseph Yorke, granted him as a reward for thirty years services in
foreign embassy. Both these pensions, he said, were strictly with-
able gentleman upon a promise of his majesty. To put it upon
in the spirit as well as letter of the act. The fourth was a pension
that ground created a difficulty, and in a manner barred all
of 7 001. and the fifth, another of 5ool. a year, granted to two clerks
comment, because whatever promises the royal personage
of the treasury, whom, for the sake of some official arrangements.
chose to make, he should be ready at all times to say, they
they had found it necessary to superannuate. The sixth was a pen-
ought to be held sacred, and fulfilled at all hazards. It was
sion . of tool. a year, granted to a gentleman on his leaving the tax-
not, nevertheless, a fair argument for ministers to use in that
office, to undertake the office of one of the secretaries - to the trea-
liouse, when a public act of administration was under dis-
sury, as a compensation, in case, by a change of ministry, he should.
eusssoir ;z. With regard to the pension granted to Lord
146 COALITION' OF MR. FOX AND LORD NORTH, &C. [March 6.
1783.] COALITION OF MR. Pox AND LORD NORTH, Ste;
147
Grantham; with that noble lord from his earliest infancy, he
He next came to the mention of Sir Joseph Yorke's pension,
had been accustomed to live • in habits of the strictest friend-
and not having the honour to be acquainted with that gen-
ship ; and therefore, it was almost needless for him to disclaim
tleman,he said, he was not enabled to fortify himself against
any invidious or personal motive in what he had to say upon
the charge of personal and invidious motives, in regard to
that noble lord's pension. He would then, without scruple,
what he should say, in like manner as he had been able to
declare, that the pension itself did not appear to him to
fortify himself, with regard to the lord chancellor and Lord
be greatly objectionable; but the manner and the time of
Grantham; he could only therefore disclaim being actuated
oTantino- it ga
granting v e him most serious alarm indeed. 'What had
by any such motives. With respect to Sir Joseph's pension,
b
the right honourable gentleman told the House ? That his
lie declared, though he had served his country in foreign em-
majesty, when Lord Grantham accepted of the office of secre-
bassy thirty- years, yet when he looked at his honours and
tary of state, promised him a pension of 20001. a year when-
emoluments, he saw no necessity for the pension lately granted.
ever he should quit that office. What did this lead to, if the
He next spoke . of Mr. 1VIorgan's pension, and said, that he
practice obtained, but a most dangerous and alarming exercise
knew nothing of the promise of any such pension when he
of the influence of the crown ? What was it, but bribing per-
was in office. Perhaps the noble lord below him (Lord John
sons by pensions to take on them offices, to accept which they
Cavendish) might. .He objected, however, very strongly to
bad no inclination? By this means the crown could always
any pension being granted as a bribe to induce any person to
obtain an administration without the smallest regard to the
take upon him an efficient office. He thought the principle a
sense of parliament, or the confidence of the people.
pernicious one, and though he meant nothing invidious or
After severely reprobating this mode of bestowing a pen-
personally offensive to the learned lord advocate over the
sion, as a condition of accepting high office, and declaring
way (Mr. Dundas), he could not avoid taking that opportu-
that though a. lord chancellor had a right to expect a pension
nity of saying, that when the learned lord accepted an office
on quitting his situation, he hoped it would not be understood,
for life, at the same time that lie accepted the office of trea-
that future secretaries of state were to have the same expecta-
surer of the navy, (which though not a sinecure, was pretty
tions ; Mr. Fox adverted to the defence set up by Mr. Pitt for
much like one) all the world. wondered at such a strange mode
Lord Grantham having been employed on foreign service for
of giving a man an office for life, as a condition of his taking
the crown. Mr. Fox admitted that his lordship came under
another, and that almost a sinecure office ; and it was uni-
that description, but said, he had himself moved to insert that
versally declared the most lavish and absurd mode of wast-
clause of the act of parliament, though with a different view
ing the public money that could be adopted. Mr. Fox next
from that in which it was now regarded. His idea was, not
adverted to the two clerks of the treasury, who had been
to enable the crown to grant pensions to noblemen who had
superannuated on pensions of cool. and Too/. per annum, and
been employed in important embassies, and whose affluent pri-
asked, if they really were, from infirmity, illness, or any
vate fortunes placed them above the want of a pension, but to
other cause, obliged-to be superannuated, or whether the whole
enable the crown to provide for a very different descrip-
of that business was not a mere job, foe the sake of an ar-
tion of persons sent upon foreign service. It was well known,
rangement more agreeable to the minister ? With regard to
that young men of some family and abilities were picked out,
the granting 2001. a-year to a clerk taken from the tax-office
and sent early in life to foreign courts, where they remain-
to the treasury, he reprobated that measure, and alluded
ed for several years, and were then moved to other courts,
to a transaction that had passed in the House of Lords ten
and so on. These persons, were they not so employed,
days since, which he termed a scandalous transaction.
would doubtless have pursued some profession or other at
He again urged the bad policy of granting pensions, as
home, in which they might have been successful ; and there-
bribes to persons to take on them efficient employment, and
fore, when from a change of administration it became neces-
having fully discussed all the topics he had touched upon, he
sary to recall them, he thought it extremely hard, (as they
said, though no man had a greater personal regard for the se-
must by that time have lost all their connections at home,
cretary of state just promoted to a peerage*, than he enter-
as well as their chance of success in any professional pursuit)
tained ; and although no man wished him to be loaded with
that they should go unrewarded. It was to meet this diffi-
culty, that he had moved the clause, and with no other vieW
The Right Honourable Thomas Townshend, had, on the p ecedhla
whatever.
`lay been created Baron Sydney .of Chistehura, in Kent,
L 2
.
148 COALITION OF MR. FOX AND LORD NoRTH,&c. [March 6.
1783.] COALITION or AIR. FOX AND LORD NORTH, ate.
149
honours more than he did, yet the remark was so obvious, that
argument to say, " I am a minister, because his majesty has
he could not avoid observing, that it was a little extraordinary,
made me one." The personal influence of the crown was not
that the crown should think proper to reward those ministers
the ground for a minister to stand upon. The confidence of
who had assisted in making
peace, which the more he con.
the people must accompany the royal favour, or the country
it,
sidered and reconsidered t, the more he found cause to
could not be governed wisely, prosperously, or safely. He
wonder at the possibility of any man being capable of setting
would repeat what he had mentioned the day before; he did
his hand to it. And yet that peace, which, to say the least
not, upon his honour, believe there were any men so ex-
of it, had not met with the approbation of that House, but in
tremely desperate, but it was reported without doors, that
some degree lay under its censure, was thought of so diffe-
there was an intention of dissolving the parliament. Let
rently elsewhere, that it had been found adviseable to reward
the House look at the business upon their table. Let them
one of the secretaries who made it with honours, and the other
consider the many, the great, and the important questions,
with emoluments.
beyond all former example, that awaited their discussion.
After putting this very pointedly, Mr. Fox said, with the
Let them think of the consequence, if a dissolution of par-
leave of the House he would so far digress from the principal
liament was to take place, without a responsible minister in
subject of debate, as to take some notice of the extraordinary
office. He would not offer any proposition or advice to
remark made by the honourable gentleman who moved the
them. Let them weigh their situation, and act accordingly.
address. To find that gentleman at any time differ from him
With regard to the coalition so frequently alluded to, let
in opinion, was a Matter that gave him real concern. He la-
gentlemen coolly ask themselves, if ever unanimity was most
mented that an honourable friend, who was every way so
requisite, whether this was not the time for it? Let them con-
respectable and independent, did not concur with him in sen-
sult their judgment, whether former animosities ought not
timent, but he could not let what had fallen from that ho-
to be buried under the present difficulties, and whether this
nourable gentleman pass unnoticed ; at the same time he de-
was a fit moment for retorts and repartees. To what pur-
clared he knew not to what his honourable friend had alluded.
pose urge former heats and asperities ? Were there any two
His honourable friend had talked of those who avowed, who
of them that could be put into a room together, of whom
boasted, and who gloried in acting independent of the public.
a third person could not say, 46 you formerly violently op-
opinion. If his honourable friend meant to allude to him,
posed each other, and this or that harsh thing was. said of one
he was mistaken : he had neither avowed, boasted of, nor
of you by the other ?" Mr. Fox conjured all sides of the
gloried in any such conduct; on the contrary, he main-
House to unite, through a sense of the critical situation of
tained the very reverse idea ; and he was not a little sur-
the country. He advised moderation and unanimity, as the
prised to hear his honourable friend immediately afterwards
great means of restoring the public welfare, and returned his
confess, he thought the government ought to go into such
hearty thanks to Mr. Powys, for his vigilance and care in
hands. How was this to be reconciled? To him it appeared
bringing forward, at such a moment, a motion so wise, so
most irreconcileable. He had contended, and he ever would
necessary, and every way so proper, as that under considera-
contend, that no ministers who acted independent of the
tion. Towards the conclusion of his speech he took occasion
public opinion, ought to be employed. The public opiniori,
again to mention the talents of the lord chancellor and his
alone was the basis, in his mind, on which an administration-
great influence. He said, the country felt that influence to
should be formed. It had been argued again and again, that
its disadvantage at that moment. Had it not been for the
-the king had a right to cause his own ministers. In that par.
exertion of that influence, he verily believed such an admi-
titular, he rested on the spirit of the constitution, and not on
n istration 'would have been some days since formed, as would
the letter of it; and grounding his opinion on the spirit of the
have
veh
had
confidence of parliament, and the confidence of
constitution, he ever had and ever would maintain, that his
people.
the
majesty, in his choice of ministers, ought not to be influenced
by his personal favour alone, but by the public voice, by the
Mr. Dundas assured Mr. Fox, that he had not obtained the place
of keeper
sense of his parliament, and the sense of his people. An.
of the signet in Scotland, as an inducement to accept
o
administration in whom that House did not place a confi7
f the treasurership of the navy, a place which he was very will-
ing to confess was not fit for him : he had said
dente, was such an administration as it was unfafe to lodge
so to persons now
within hearing ; and he declared he had consented to accept it only
t:he government of this country in at this crisis: It was 110),
until some other person should be found to fill it. But he would not
L 3
di
or
1'50 COALITION OF MILTON AND LORD NORTH, &C. [March 24.
1783.] COALITION OF MR. FOX AND LORD NORTH, &C. 151
say he *as unfit for the place' he had obtained in Scotland; and
gentleman brought the subject again before the House. He said,
his majesty having been pleased to honour him with a patent place,
that having heard that the arrangement to which he had alluded,
he would assure the honourable gentleman, he would never disho-
was put an end to, he now thought it necessary to resume his in-
nour the patent, by carrying it to market. This pointed allusion
tention and would certainly make his motion, unless a right ho,
called up
pourable gentleman opposite to him would declare that some other.
arrangement was conic to, consisting of men possessing the con-
Mr. Fox, who said, the transaction alluded to, namely, his
fidence of the country. Mr. Chancellor Pitt assured the honour-
exchange of the clerkship of the pells in Ireland, for a pen-
able gentleman, that he knew of no arrangement of administra-
sion on that kingdom, had nothing in it dishonourable: the
tion whatever. upon this Mr. Coke moved, " That an humble
patent he had received from his father, as part of his for-
Address be presented to his majesty, that his majesty will be gra-
ciously pleased to take into his serious consideration the very dis-
tune, and unconnected with the then administration, who
tracted and unsettled state of the empire, after a long and ex-
applied to him : he consented to accommodate government,
hausting war ; and that his majesty would therefore condescend
but on very bad -terms for himself, as he had given away a
to a compliance with the wishes of this House, by forming an ad-
thing of greater value than that which he had got in return
ministration entitled to the confidence of his people, and such
for it. This was the whole transaction. It had been a mat-
as may have a tendency to put an end to the unfortunate
ter well known, a matter talked of in that House, and a mat-
divisions and distractions of the country."—Mr. Buller said it was
ter that no one person, except the learned lord, ever thought
naturally a matter of wonder that no administration had been_
disgraceful or dishonourable in the smallest degree. The
formed, when it was known that there were a set of men not only
place was no favour to him from the crown, no boon from
ready, but eager to get into office, and to form an administration
among themselves. That the circumstance called for enquiry, and;
his present majesty or his ministers, but a legacy left him by
he believed, upon probing it, the fact would turn out to be, that
one of his relations, as disposable by him as any other species
his majesty had acted in time present instance as in every other of
of property whatever. Mr. Fox, after explaining this matter
his reign, with that graciousness and benignity towards his sub-
very fully, declared, upon his honour, that he knew not of
jects in general, which distinguished his character, and had long
the manner of the learned lord's accepting of the place of
since got over his personal feelings, with a hope of pleasing his
treasurer of the navy, and mentioned, that the lord chan-
people by such a sacrifice. That his majesty therefore was by no
cellor bad refused putting the seal to the learned lord's patent
means the cause of so long a delay, but that it would rather be
of keeper of the signet of Scotland for life, till he was ap-
found to have arisen from the difference of opinion that had pre-
vailed among the heads of the new coalition, who had united more
pointed treasurer of the navy.
with a view to get into power, than from any other principle, and
Mr. Rigby said, he was acquainted with the whole transaction
therefore the first moment it became a question, how officers were
el Mr.
to be appointed, difficulties had occurred, which, to a coalition so
lox's baro:ain, which was perfectly honourable ; and in
's
which there was but one thing censurable— the right honourable
formed, must necessarily prove the source of much trouble, and
gentleman had parted with his patent for less than it was worth.
take a good deal of time to accommodate.—Mr. Hill, men-
Mr. Byng justified Mr. Fox, with regard to his exchange of the
tioned a design he had of proposing the following addition to the
clerkship of the pells of Ireland, and said, that the place had no
address, " And that hi majesty would be graciously pleased not
sooner passed out of the hands of his honourable friend into that
to nominate or appoint any person or persons to fill up the vacant
of Mr. Jenkinson, for whom it was purchased, than its value seas
departments, who by their mismanagement of public affairs and
increased full ' cool. a year. The motion, after a few verbal altera4
want of foresight and abilities, when they were in office, had lost.
tions, was agreed to.
the confidence of the people."
March 24,
Mr. Fox said, it had not been his expectation, that the
On the 19th of March, Mr. Coke, member for Norfolk,
House would have gone into much debate that day, but after
gave notice, that if an administration should not be formed on
hearing the right honourable the chancellor of the exche-
or before the Friday following, he would on that day move an
quer solemnly assure the House, that he knew of no arrange-
address to his Majesty on the subject: This notice was supposed
ment of administration whatever, and after hearing likewise,
to have produced the desirecieffect ; and it being generally under-
what had fallen from the different gentlemen, who had spoken,
stood the clay following, that the king had commanded the Duke
he thought it necessary to say a few words. He owned when
:of Portland and Lord North to lay an arrangement for a new ad-
ministration before him, Mr. Coke, on the day fixed, declined
the honourable gentleman had risen, who spoke last but one
making his intended motion. On Monday the 24th, the same
(Mr. Hill) he did imagine the honourable gentleman had in-
4
152 COALITION OF MR. FOX AND LORD NOTITH, &C. [March 24,
1783.] COALITION OF MR. FOX AND LORD NORTH, &C. f
tended to move the same amendment, which he understood
whenever occasion called for it. He did' not in the present
the honourable gentleman had read to the House on Friday
instance conceive it possible for the calamitous situation of the
last. He used the word understood, because from accident,
country (arising from the five weeks want of a responsible ad-
and from accident merely, he had happened to be out of the
ministration) to have happened, had not the crown been ill
House at the time. The amendment was part of a motion
advised. Had a single hint only been given to those, with
which he had formerly had the honour to make, but which
whom. he acted, that the degree of confidence necessary to
had not been adopted by the House, though it had received
carry on the measures of government would be placed in
the support of a. very respectable minority. It could not
them, every thing would have been easily adjusted. The mo-
therefore be brought forward as a matter that had met the
tion went to that, and therefore, in giving it his support, he
sanction of the House. The honourable gentleman had now
could not think he countenanced an unconstitutional inter-
said, he would not move the amendment for the sake of avoid.
ference with the prerogative; although, had the motion borne
ing the confusion, into which it might have led the House
such a construction, as the noble earl who seconded it had
undoubtedly such would have been its effect; but the confu
truly said, the present situation of the country would have
sion would have been still greater than the honourable gen
been a full justification. Let the noble earl only look at the
tleman seemed aware of: for had the amendment been
speech made by his majesty at the opening of the present ses-
moved, he should have proposed an amendment upon it; if
sion, and he would there see a lesson laid clown to the House;
the first amendment had been carried, which desired his ma-
for the minister had made his majesty say, that he knew the
jesty not to employ persons, who from want of foresight had
sentiments of the people better than their representatives.
lost the confidence of the people, his amendment would have
The speech recommended the House to act with temper and
been to have added the words, << and also, that his majesty
.
wisdom, collectively and individually, and concluded with
would be graciously pleased not to employ as ministers, any
saying, " My people expect these qualifications of you, and
of those whom that House had declared to have made a peace,
I call fir them." Surely, he said, the House had an equal
in which the concessions to the adversaries of Great Britain
right to say to the throne, " The people expect an adminis-
were greater than they were entitled to." Had both these
tration they can confide in, and to you they call for it." To
amendments been before the House, and certainly the one
form an administration of that kind, he said, it would be ne-
was as fair, or more so, than the other (because it stood on
cessary to call forth great and distinguished abilities from all
the Journals of the House, which the other did not), he
parts of the House; it must be an administration formed on
verily believed the House would have been a little con
a broad basis.
fused how to act. If the honourable gentleman insisted that
If ever it was right to forget former animosities, to forego
the motion of last year, although supported by a respectable
ancient prejudices, and to unite, it was right now. The situa-
minority, ought to exclude the noble lord in the blue ribbon,
tion of the country required a coalition' of parties, and in
surely his candour must make him acknowledge, that the vote
order to attain so great an object, where so much was at stake,
of the 21st of February, above alluded to, must equally ex-
and to fonn an administration on a broad and permanent ba-
clude the noble earl, who was at the head of the treasury.
sis, he was ready to shake hands even with those opposite to
Well then, what would be the consequence? Both those par-
Min, as well as with the noble lord in the blue ribbon, and
ties being excluded, there would be only one set left unim-
from out of the three parties to form such an administration
peached ; and although that was the set he most wished for,
as the country could look up to with hope and with confi-
he should have voted against both amendments, confident,
dence. In order to effect this, it would neither be wise nor
that however respectable the Rockingham party were, they
prudent to point out the former errors of one party or of the
were not sufficient to stand alone.
other, but to lay aside the recollection of the past for the
The noble earl (of Surrey) who seconded the motion, had
sake of being able to do well for the country in future. With
treated it rather too seriously, in thinking it would be an in-
regard to there being persons ready to accept of power, it
fringement on the prerogative of the crown. He was ready
was a fact that there were. But surely for men to be ready
to own, that it was unconstitutional in that House to meddler
to endeavour to serve their country in a moment of uncom-
with the prerogative of the crown ; but lie never could agree
mon difficulty, with a table full of great and important busi-
that it was not perfectly constitutional for them to enquire T
ness, with a loan to be directly made, with many other ques-
into, and to censure the conduct of the advisers of the crown,
tions of infinite magnitude, pressing for immediate discussion
S
54 comzriorr OP MR. FOX AND LORD NORTH, &C. [March 24.
1783.] COALITION OF MR. FOX AND LORD NORTH, &C. 155
and management, and with the prospect of a powerful oppo-
act in opposition to the wishes of his people and to the sense
sition ; under all these circumstances, to be willing to under-
of his parliament. [During this, Mr. Fox looked hard at
take the government of the country from a hope that they
Mr. Jenkinson. j It was, he verily believed, owing to that
might, by an union of abilities, and a vigorous exertion of
secret influence alone, that so much delay had hitherto been
them, rescue the empire from its present calamitous condition,
practised. If any min wished to see who it was that had for
was surely a matter in favour of those, who were ready to
five weeks past governed the kingdom, and ill advised his
undertake the government, and the more entitled them to the
majesty, let them go to the other House, they would there
thanks and confidence of that House and of the country in
find the great adviser in his true character. Let them mark
general. 'With regard to the eagerness of gentlemen so sar-
the man, they would see difficulty, delay, sullenness, and all
castically mentioned, if any man thought in`times like the
the distinguishing features of what had been falsely termed an
present, that he and 'those who acted with him, were influ-
interregnum of administration, but what was, as he had be-
enced merely by motives of a personal nature, he was willing
fore said, a sample of the most open government ever known
to let them remain in that opinion.. To such an argument he
in this country. Mr. Fox said, the motion had his hearty
would not offer one word in reply. He had heard, he ob-
approbation, and he trusted that there could be• no objection
served, a good deal from an honourable gentleman, who spoke
to it. He advised the House by all means to be unanimous
early in the debate (Mr. Buller), about the new friends and
upon it, to carry up the address to the throne as the sense of
new connections of the noble lord in the blue ribbon. He
that House, upon the want of an administration, and not as
was a little surprised at hearing such an attack from such a
the measure of any one party or set of men Whatever. If any
quarter. He was not old enough to remember it, but he un-
of the particular words of it were deemed objectionable, he
derstood, that the honourable gentleman himself, fourteen
said, he could answer for his honourable friend who moved it,
years ago, quitted those who were now the noble lord's new
that they should be giveirup or altered, as the House should
allies, then the honourable gentleman's old friends, to join
think proper ; but at any rate he hoped it would pass.
the noble lord. Was it more reprehensible for him, and
those who acted with him, to do that in a body now, which
In reply to Mr. Fox's insinuation concerning the evil advisers of
the honourable gentleman had thought proper to do singly,.
his majesty, and the secret influence behind the throne, Mr.
as an individual, fourteen years ago ? As to the honourable
Jenkinson considering himself as alluded to by the right honoura,..
gentleman's suggestion, that the difficulty anti delay that had
ble gentleman, stood up to refute the charge in every; and in the
attended the arrangement of ministers, 'would be found to
fullest sense of its unwarrantable meaning. He said that the pre-
have arisen from a difference of opinion between the heads
rogative of the crown was not so limited as to proscribe any privy
counsellor the presence of his sovereign, or to take from that so-
of the two parties that had united, the honourable gentleman
vereign the advice of a privy counsellor. As to secret influence,
was mistaken. He did not believe it arose from any want of
he denied such ever to have existed in him, but he thought that
disposition on the part of his majesty to comply with the
When his.majesty was graciously pleased to send to him and corn,-
wishes of his people, and he knew that it originated not in any
mand his attendance, he was bound in duty and respect to obey
difference among those who had formed the coalition, so much
the summons. He owned that in the course of the last five weeks
disapproved of by the honourable gentleman who spoke last.
lie had been with his majesty more than once: he declared that
With regard to their conduct respecting the arrangement, he
he never did go, except on official business, and when he was
heartily wished he was at liberty to state every particular
sent for; and that he never did use any secret influence, or gave
of it without reserve. The more it was known, he was con-
any advice whatsoever, which was not warranted by the strongest
principles of national justice. In reply to various
vinced, the more it would be approved. It could hardly,
observation's
made by Mr.Macdonald,
however, be said, that there was no government, on the
contrary, for these five weeks past it had been the most open
Mr. Fox rose, and took a comprehensive view of the coa-
and bare-faced government ever known in this country. Not
lition, and reprobated, in the strongest terms, every insinua-
a government by ministers, not by a first lord of the trea-
tion and charge made by the honourable gentleman. He said,
sury, or by secretaries of state, those puppets and instruments
his very severe attack on the noble lord in the blue ribbon
of others, but by the persons themselves who had been sup-
need not give his lordship any pain ; for as it was early in the
posed only before to possess some secret influence, but who.
debate, it was probable, and there was a precedent for
'low stood forward as the private advisers of his majesty tp.;
it, that the honourable gentleman, before the rising of
7 8 3 .] COALITON OF MR. FOX AND LORD NORTH, &c.
156 COALITION OF MR. FOX AND LORD NORTH, &e. [March 24.
157
the House would get np and make an apology for what
sidered the situation of affairs at home and abroad, and when
he had said, or at any rate, it might be expected by the.
they looked to the probable and certain consequences, it must
next clay at -farthest. He denied that the delays of form-
be natural to conclude, that nothing could save this country
ing a ministry were at the doors of the Duke of Portland and
from ruin, but a vigorous, virtuous, and steady administra-
his friends ; they lay elsewhere. It was, without question,
tion. Something had been said by the honourable gentleman,
the lord chancellor whom he meant as the secret adviser of the
(Mr. M'Donald) that alluded to a venal tribe, as always ap-
crown, and the cause of the delay in the choice of an admi-
plied to those who had supported the administration of the
nistration. He avowed the charge, he wished not to conceal
noble lord in the blue ribbon. He wished to know whether
his opinion, and he openly averred, that to the learned lord
by. that description the honourable gentleman meant those
he looked for the influence which at present directed the sove-
who changed their opinion, those who left him, because, as
reign. His reasons for so doing were these ; that as there was
they themselves contended, he had not so great a power as
not any first lord of the treasury, any ostensible minister to be
formerly of providing for his friends, or those who still ad-
answerable, the chancellor, of course, was the person to be
hered to him without the prospect of reward, and had not
considered as the only official man from whom his majesty
joined others who were likely to pay better. If he meant the
could receive advice ; and therefore he alluded to that learned
former, then the honourable gentleman spoke from convic-
lord. That there was influence, that there was secret coun-
tion. As to what had been said respecting a majority of in-
cil, he believed no man doubted. 'lie coalition alluded to by
terest, he denied any such idea. There was indeed; as al-
the honourable gentleman had, it seemed, met with disappro-
ready observed, some slight difference in respect to the coali-
bation, because old enemies had become new friends ; because
tion, but out of the five weeks negotiation, that only took up
those who differed on former points had, in present matters,
ten hours, and was then finally adjusted and conclusively
come to an agreement. Was this so extraordinary an affair ?
settled. The charge, therefore, in that respect, was ground-
Was reconciliation such an improper, such an unprecedented,
less. He begged pardon for again repeating this matter to
such an unparliamentary maxim? Surely not I 'The empire
the House, but as it was urged in a strong manner against a
was thrown into convulsions; the state was without an helm,
noble duke, he thought he could not too much impress the
and the kingdom without a government. As to what the ho-
subject on the attention of the House. The motion before the
nourable gentleman alledged in respect to the coalition oc-
House, therefore, became a matter absolutely requisite to be
casioning the delay, he was misinformed • and as to what he
adopted. The people demanded it, the kingdom wanted it,
had said about the contention in that coalition for power, his
and therefore it should have his . concurrence. Mr. Fox took
information was not correct. This he advanced as a truth
notice of what had fallen from Mr. Jenkinson respecting his
incontrovertible, because it was founded in that which could
giving the king his advice; he admitted, that being a privy
e,
not be controverted. The coalition was founded on a princi-
counsellor, he had a right so to do, but what he found fault
ple to which every honest man in the kingdom must agree.
with was, be declared, not that the honourable gentleman
It was founded on a principle that went to reconcile old ani-
gave his majesty his advice, but that he gave it him in secret.
mosities, and to form an administration upon a permanent,
There lay the rub; let it be public; let it be in the face of the
sound, and constitutional foundation. Such was the admi-
council, that the honourable gentleman was his majest y's ad-
nistration that this country wanted, and such only -was the
viser, and there would be no harm in the business, nor any
administration that could relieve it from its present difficulties.
thing suspicious in it; as the matter stood, the case was widely
Much had been said about old enemies re-uniting. He took
different.
the liberty again to mention the circumstance, and he de-
manded if that was improper or impolitic. Political diffe-
Mr. Coke's motion for an address was agreed to without a divi-
rences, and the diversified interests of party, had brought
sion. To this address his majesty replied, " That it was his
.earnest desire to do every thing in his power to comely
this kingdom to its present unhappy situation. And as by the
with the
wishes of his faithful Commons."
recent and former examples of a want of coalescence, there
were evident proofs that the empire could only be happy in the
unanimity of parliament ; so it followed, that coalitions to ef-
fect that unanimity were constitutionally proper. When the
House looked at the business upon the table, when they con-
158 COALITION OF MR. FOX AND LORD NORTH, &C. [March 31.
1783.] COALITION OF MR. FOX AND LORD NonTfi, &C.
159
critical state of the East India Company ;—that these, with other
important concerns, do severally, and much more collectively,
March 31.
require an efficient and responsible administration, formed upon
On the 31st of March Mr. Pitt acquainted the House, that he
principles of strength and stability, suited to the state of his ma-
had that day resigned his office of chancellor of the exchequer ;
jesty's affairs both at home and abroad.— And that this House
and being asked, whether he understood that any new arrange-
most humble repeats its application to his majesty, that he will
ment was likely soon to take place? he said, he knew of none,
take such measures towards this object, as may become his most
but concluded, from his majesty's answer to the address, that such
gracious disposition, and quiet the anxiety and apprehensions of
a measure would not unnecessarily be delayed. This answer did
his faithful subjects."
not appear to give any satisfaction to the house; and especially
The decency and propriety of this address were very generally
as it now appeared, that the care of the public money was left
acknowledged, but some doubts were expressed whether sufficient
without any responsible minister whatever. Much difference of
time had been allowed since the answer that had been returned to
opinion prevailed as to the steps it might be proper for the House
the former. In the course of the debate, the negotiation that had
to take in so alarming a conjuncture. The Earl of Surrey pro-
broken off' eight days before was again adverted to. After the
posed as the ground work of their future proceedings, that they
satisfactory answer given in a former debate, that no obstacle or
should come to the following resolution : " That a considerable
impediment had arisen from any disagreement amongst the per-
time having now elapsed without any administration responsible
sons with whom that negotiation was carried on, a report had been
for the conduct of public affairs, the interposition of this House
industriously circulated, that it had been broken off on account
on the present alarming crisis is become necessary." Several
of the harsh and unreasonable demands of that party—and that
objections were made to this proposition. It was said to be
these demands went to the absolute dismission of all the private
worded in a manner much stronger than the occasion justified:
and domestic servants of the crown. On the ground of this report,
and that, to declare their interposition necessary in a case, ac-
Sir William Dolben having called on Lord North to avow its truth
knowledged on all hands to belong constitutionally to the, crown,
or falsehood, his lordship solemnly protested, that no such cause
was little short of declaring that the government of the country
either did or could have. existed ; that the noble duke and him-
was at an end. It was further objected, that such a proceeding
self had never, even in conversation, descended to the mention
was not consonant to the practice and forms of the House; and
of any arrangements so minute as to reach the offices alluded to ;
lastly, it was objected to, as implying, that for some time past
that he believed there was no set of men in the country, who
there had been no responsible ministers, whereas every minister
could be so indecent and so reprehensible as to presume to dictate
was responsible for every part of his conduct till the clay he re-
so harsh
h
a measure.
He did not scruple, he said, to declare that
signed. This motion being withdrawn, the Earl of Surrey pro-
so disgraceful an attempt would justly have called for the ab-
posed the following : " That an humble address be presented to
horrence and detestation, of that House ; but that he was con-
his majesty, to express the dutiful and grateful sense this House
vinced his noble and honourable friends would be as much hurt.,
entertains of the gracious intentions expressed in his message of
as he confessed he was at that moment, to have it insinuated that
the a6th instant.— To assure his majesty it is with a perfect
such a proof of unworthiness to fill any office whatever themselves
reliance on his paternal goodness, and with an entire deference to
had been given by them. — Mr. Perceval said, if the address was
his royal wisdom, that this House again submits to his considera-
persisted in, he could wish to acid an amendment to it, by " as-
tion the urgency, as well as the importance of the affairs, which
suring his majesty, that that House would fully support any ad.
require the immediate appointment of such an administration as
ministration he might be pleased to form, as long as they acted
his majesty, in compliance with the wishes of his faithful Commons,
constitutionally." That amendment, he thought, ought to be
has given them reason to expect : to assure his majesty that all
inserted, as it would clearly evince that the address did not 'pro-
delays in a matter of this moment have an inevitable tendency to
ceed from any party motives, or that the House wished to point
weaken the authority of his government, to which this House is
out any particular set of' men to his majesty of whom to make
not more bound by duty than led by inclination to give an effec-
choice.
tual and constitutional support—To represent to his majesty,
that -the confidence of foreign powers may be weakened by a fai-
Mr. Fox rose, and declared that be by no means saw the
lure of the ordinary means of a constant communication with them.
necessity of the amendment, mentioned by the honourable
That the final execution of treaties, with the important and deci-
gentleman ; the address, in his opinion, fully expressed what
sive arrangements of a commercial and political nature in con-
the honourable gentleman wished; it said, that the House
sequence of a late revolution ; —that a provision for the heavy
expences and the important services voted;—that the orderly
was bound by duty, and led by inclination, to give an effec-
reduction of the forces, and the expences of a new establishment ;
tual and constitutional support; surely that was saying every
that the settlement of national credit, seriously affected by the,
thing that could be wished: it would be needless to say more;
16o coALrrloN or MR, rox AND tom) NORTH, &C. [March 244
1783.] COALITION OF MR. FOX AND LORD NORTH, &c.
161
indeed it would be wrong to agree to support men before
indeed, he was neither ripe to acquit, nor ready to condemn ;
they knew who those men were. — In the course of the debate
without proof he could say nothing one way or the other.
the learned lord advocate had observed, that the resignation
With respect to the general argument of the learned lord, if
of Mr. Pitt ought to be a means of postponing the address;
it applied at all, it applied in a way directly opposite to that
at the same time insinuating, that the great obstacle to form-
in which it had been used. All the learned lord had said,
ing an arrangement was now removed. Did the learned lord
as Well his inexpressible reasoning, as his other reasoning,
wish to say that Mr. Pitt's remaining in office for the last six
went rather to skew that the address was necessary, than that
weeks was the cause why no arrangement could take place?
it was unjustifiable. The learned lord had said, if there had
If he did, the blame undoubtedly lay with Mr. Pitt; but he
been delay — if there had been delay?— had there not?
by no means believed that to be the case; for his own part,
"What did all the world complain of? — But then, said the
he conceived the resignation of that right honourable gentle-
learned lord, if there had been culpable delay? Undoubtedly
men neither retarded nor expedited the forming an arrange-
the delay was culpable. Why had that House voted their
ment, for he had, in fact, been considered out of office these
address of Monday, but because they thought the delay cul-
six weeks; nay, his own words, a considerable time since,
pable? Why for a moment entertain the present motion, but
were, that he only remained as a locum tenens, to do the bu-
because the still longer delay appeared to be still more cul-
siness until some other person was appointed ; surely, then,
pable ? There was no doubt of the fact, the only question
his having resigned this day could be nothing unexpected.
,i
under the present circumstances was this: would it not be
The learned lord had desired the motion to be postponed
wise to act unanimously, and for that House to avoid as
for a few days. Would the learned lord assign any reasons
much as possible the appearance of any thing like a conten-
for putting, the address off; would he give the House any
tion of parties? For this reason he deprecated a_ division;
reason to think an arrangement was about to be made, and
He earnestly conjured the House not to divide; he conjured
in such forwardness, as to promote a ministry in a few days
them rather to withdraw the motion, than let it go to a divi-
in iiict, would he give the House any reason whatever why an
sion. If either the learned lord or the right honourable gen-
arrangement had been so long delayed? If he would not, he
tleman would declare, nay, if they would hint only that they
must say, that the learned lord's inexpressible reasons were
believed an arrangement would speedily be formed, or if they
such, as by no means warranted the House in delaying the
would say a motion similar in purport to the present would
address moved by the noble earl. The situation of the coun-
be agreed to by them, if no arrangement took place in a day
try, so truly painted by the noble earl, called aloud for an
or two, he would by all means advise the noble earl to with-
administration to be formed with all possible speed, and the ,l''
drawn his motion. On the present occasion, however they
learned lord himself had said, that any unnecessary delay cer-
might differ on other questions, he was persuaded there was
tainly was culpable. Surely six weeks had been sufficient
but one opinion ; where, therefore, there was a real unani-
time to form an arrangement in, therefore it was clear that •
mity, he wished most earnestly to avoid the appearance of
some persons were culpable, but vdio they were, he was not
dissension.
warranted in saying; yet he would persevere in what lie men-
Having argued this very strenuously, Mr. Fox took notice
tioned on a former occasion, that those persons were culpable
of what Sir 'William Dolben had said. He observed, that
who gave his majesty advice to delay the business, and on
the honourable baronet had called for more than insinuation
whom could lie fix that culpability bat on those who had
to support the charge of secret influence. If the honourable
access to his royal person?
baronet would recollect what had passed last Monday, he
With regard to Mr. Pitt's responsibility, he was glad to-,ii.
would have remembered, that he had much stronger evidence
hear the noble lord in the blue ribbon touch upon that point.
of the existence of secret influence than bare insinuation; he
Had not the noble lord spoken in that manner to the first
bad self-confession. That which suspicion had only glanced
motion lie meant to have done so. As long as the right !i
at heretofore, boast and exultation had avowed. He had
honourable gentleman held his office, so long he certainly -:...
learnt more than- ever he knew before, and, in fact, more than
was responsible; not that he meant to charge him as the
ever he expected to have heard; he had learnt that a privy
cause of the delay, of not appointing an administration for
counsellor, who -was not a minister, might give his sovereign
so long a time, —a matter which the country felt severely l
advice, and not be responsible for the effect that might be
He had no inclination to prefer an accusation to that quarter;
Produced by it. Surely the House _could not agree to such
VOL. II.
M
162 COALITION Or MR.FOX AND LORD NORTH, &C. [March 24
1783•]
WILLIAMS'S DIVORCE RILL.
163
an absurd, ridiculous, and dangerous doctrine : indeed it was
an insult to their understanding, but it had been exultingly
however desirable at all times, being never more requisite than
at
mentioned by a right honourable gentleman (Mr. Jenkinson)
present, he therefore by all means wished the House not to
on Monday last, and the only excuse he made for it was,
divide, but cordially to agree, as that would be one great
that he never gave any but good advice. How was it to be
means towards expediting the business so ardently wished
for.
known whether that advice was good or bad, but by the effect
produced? The effect was the only criterion he could judge
The Earl of Surrey consented to withdraw his motion, with an.
by, and if that right honourable gentleman had given his
understanding that it was to be renewed in three days. The day
sovereign advice in the present instance, he was the person
after this debate, a negotiation was.again opened with the Duke of
culpable. He knew, he said, perfectly well, that it was a
Portland, and on the ad of April a new Administration was
difficult matter to prove to the House the culpability of a
announced.
person in such an affair, as private conversation could not be
called for, nor could the secrets of the cabinet be divulged.
The noble lord (North) near him had been called on by that
right honourable gentleman on Monday last to declare, whe-
ther he ever found his schemes frustrated by a secret influence?
and he had declared that he had not. This might be easily
accounted for; the right honourable gentleman in question
WILLIAMS'S DIVORCE BILL.
was a known friend to the government under that noble lord,
as the measures it pursued were consonant to his ideas and
Merck 27.
wishes. But what would the consequence be, if that right
honourable gentleman was suffered to give his sovereign
advice without being responsible? When an administration
THE House resolved itself into a committee on Williams's di-
vorce bill. A conversation 'took place on the subject of the
might be in power that was of a different way of thinking to
clause, inserted in the upper House, on the motion of Lord Ashbur-
him, what a predicament would they find themselves in !
ton, the purport of which was, that the children born after the
Their schemes, their plans, formed with the best intent pos-
sible, all frustrated, owing to advice given by a person by no
means responsible for the effect of his advice ! What could
The following is a List of the New Administration.
an administration do in such a case? Why, in his opinion,
they would have no other alternative than to signify their
Members of the Cabinet.
First Lord of the Treasury — Duke
disapprobation to the measures by a resignation of their
of Portland.
Secretary of State for the Home Department — Lord North.
offices. That was the only step a virtuous administration
Ditto for the Foreign Department — Right Hon. Charles James Fox.
could take; but he sincerely hoped, that such steps would be
Chancellor of the Exchequer—Lord John Cavendish.
taken as totally to preclude any thing of the kind happening
First Lord of the Admiralty Lord Viscount Keppel.
President of the Council— Lord Viscount Stormont.
in future.
Lord Privy Seal — Earl of Carlisle.
The public were led to believe several things to the preju-
Not of the Cabinet.
dice of himself and his friends, by a number of arrangements
Lords Commissioners for the Custody of the Great Seal — Lord Louah-
that daily appeared in the public papers. How those arrange-
borough, Sir Wm. henry Ashurst, Sir Beaumont Hotham.
suents .came into the papers, or who formed them, he was to-
Master-General of the Ordnance—Lord Viscount Townshend.
tally ignorant ; he could with a safe conscience say, they were,
Secretary at War — Hon. Richard Fitzpatrick.
Paymaster of
to the best of his knowledge, erroneous; at least, he knew no-
the Forces—Edmund Burke, Esq.
Treasurer of the Navy — Charles Townshend, Esq.
thing of such arrangements. He was in hopes, as the whole
Attorney-General — James Wallace, Esq.
House seemed perfectly agreed on two grand points; first, the
S olicitorL General — John Lee, Esq.
necessity of an administration; and secondly, that the appoint-
.Secretaries to the Treasury — Rich. Brinsley Sheridan, Esq. Richard
Burke, Esq.
ment of that administration should be such as was most con-
Speaker of the House of Lords — Earl of Mansfield.
sistent with the dignity of the crown, that there would be no
Lord Lieutenant of Ireland — Earl of Northington.
division. This he must again urge tothe House. Unanimity,
Secretary to do. — William Windham, Esq.
I I
AT 2
164
wayLIAMS'S DIVORCE BILL.
[March 27.
i783.]
WILLIAMS'S DIVORCE BILL.
1-A5s
separation of the husband and wife should not be entitled to any
pose, that he was criminally indicted and tried for murder,
share of the husband's property, unless the said children should be
the blackest of all others in the calendar of crimes, and that
able to prove their legitimacy..
the indictment stated, and the evidence adduced, proved in,
the most satisfactory manner, that he, as B. was aiding and
Mr. Fox arraigned this clause as an act of injustice to the
abetting A. in the crime alledged, that he was present at the
children, inasmuch as it robbed them of their claim to a pro-
murder, that he put the pistol or weapon with which the fact
vision from Mr. Williams, without so much as hearing them,
was perpetrated into A.'s hand, that he held the person mur-
and then condemned them for not asserting a claim and mak-
dered while A. killed him, and that he was tried for the fact,
ing out a title which their friendless and deserted infancy dis-
condemned and executed. In this case, as far as the trans-
qualified them from doing. He was ready to admit that there
action affected him, the whole was consonant with the strictest
was an appearance of hardship on Mr. Williams; but it must
justice ; his execution, no man could say, had been unfair,
be remembered, that though the adultery of his wife was clear-
nor could there be a single argument raised to question the
ly established, it by no means followed, that the illegitimacy
equity of any part of the proceeding. But would any man
of the children was in any degree proved ; nay, it was by no
say, that therefore A. stood condemned. Would it be main-
means the subject-matter of the bill, the object of which was,
tained for a moment even, that because A. had been inciden-
simply to release Mr. Williams and his wife a vinculo matri-
tally tried when B. was tried, that therefore A. ought, with-
monii : the parties applied to the legislature for that relief
out farther proceeding, to be likewise executed.? Undoubtedly
which the law could not give : the law could pronounce on mat-
not. A. would be entitled to a separate and distinct trial, in
ters of filet, and determine questions of illegitimacy, &c. but it
order -that A. might hear his accusation, combat the evidence,
could not dissolve the vinculum matrimonii. It was therefore
and make his defence. If, then, in a criminal case this was
necessary that the legislature should interfere to supply the
necessary, how much more so ought it to be adhered to
defect of law, and dissolve the marriage : but there was no want
in.
a civil one : In a case of landed property, in the case of a
of power in the law to determine questions about legitimacy ;
fancily-estate, and, in short, in such a case as that of persons
and, therefore, what- ground could there be for calling upon
upon whose proved legitimacy or illegitimacy depended the
parliament to bastardize children whom the law was fully com-
validity of their claim to family honours, titles, and fortunes !
petent to declare illegitimate, on proper evidence? He did
This was exactly the case of the children to be bastardized by
not mean to add to the misfortunes of Mr. Williams ; and
the clause then under consideration ; it surely, therefore,
therefore he would -not object to the introduction of a bill,
• behoved the justice of the House to take particular care, how
which should perpetuate the evidence on which that gentleman
they proceeded to give their sanction to a clause which de-
supposed the illegitimacy of the children might be proved;
prived innocent infants of their estates, and declared them in-
such a bill would guard against the injury he might otherwise
famous, without having heard it proved that they were so.
sustain by the death of any of the witnesses, before the child- .
Mr. Fox said, he had ever been of opinion, that a collusion
ren should arrive at full age. In the bill there were three
between a man and his wife to prove the adultery of the latter,
parties concerned, Mr. \\Villiams, his wife, and the children.
after that adultery had been committed, ought not to be any
The two first were only before the House, and therefore,
bar to the passing of a divorce bill. He knew a very high law
though he was ready to 'give sentence, as far as that sentence
authority had held the reverse, and On that single ground had
could affect them, he was by no means prepared to say that
not only opposed several divorce bills, but in one case of fla-
the children were bastards. He held it to be an inherent
grancy had been able to reject the application for a divorce,
and indispensable principle of justice, that no persons what-
and throw out the bill. This he thought a very great hard-
ever should be deemed guilty of an offence, by any judgment
ship on the injured husband, because he thought the facility
of authority, whether pronounced by parliament, or by any
of his producing evidence of the adultery of the wife, however
other court, without having been heard in their defence, and
obtained, no objection to his claim for relief: but the mo-
without having been afforded an opportunity of combating the
ment he had taken up that opinion, he found it necessary to
evidence adduced against them, in the manner that evidence
take care to confine it merely to the husband and wife, and by
usually was combated on trials where the parties accused had
no means to suffer it to extend itself to the children. And the
an opportunity of being in court and making their defence.
reason of his feeling the necessity' of this precaution, arose from
In order to render his meaning more obvious, he would sup-
considering how extremely hard it would be to suffbr children
;M 3
166
TERMS OF THE LOAN.
[April 16.
TERMS Or THE LOAN.
1,57
783.3
to be bastarized, deprived of their birthright, and rendered
gain for the public. In vindication of himself, he allowed that the
infamous, merely because their father and mother had obtained
premium was certainly much greater than ought to have been given
a legal divorce. That divorce might have been (as he was
in time of peace, but he begged the House to recollect the circum-
ready to allow it should be) obtained by a collusion between
stances under which he had been obliged to negotiate the loan.
He had only been ten days in office ; the late ministers had left
the father and mother; and, therefore, a collusion come into
the treasury without a ; and the public service admitted of
by them, ought not to be a ground for bastardizing the child-
no delay. These circumstances were well known to the money
ren ; or the divorce might have been obtained by perjured evi-
lenders, and they had doubtless taken advantage thereof. And as
dence, by false evidence, or by negligent evidence; which,
the necessity of coming to a conclusion on any terms would by
where there was no party to combat it, as must be the case
every day's delay have been the more urgent, they would certainly
with helpless children, might have the full effect of the best
have been raised upon him, the nearer that period approached.
possible evidence. Upon all these reasons, he thought it un-
The terms of the loan were strongly condemned by Mr. 'William
just to say, in a bill of that nature, more than that the man de-
Pitt. Mr. Martin said, it was well known, that he had frequently
declared his sentiments in that House, against the admission of
served the relief he prayed for, and should have it. If the
members of parliament to a participation of any loan which govern-
husband wished to bastardize the children, and was convinced
ment might have occasion for. Having stated this, he thought
they were spurious, let him resort to the courts below; they
himself bound to mention, that the noble lord who negotiated the
Were open to him. He denied that the question of non-access
loan, had sent to the House with which he was connected, ex-
had been clearly established, and for that reason also, he
pressing his good opinion of it, and informing his partners,
thought the House would go far beyond justice, if they de-
that the house should certainly be considered in the distri-
clared the children bastards. He took notice of the vulgar er-.
bution of the loan. Mr. Martin, as a member of parliament, dis-
ror that prevailed, that non-access could not be proved, unless
claimed all idea of accepting any part of the loan ; but by that he
it could be evinced that the husband or his wife were beyond
did not mean to exclude his partners from any profit they might
make, by taking a share of it in the regular course of business. He
sea while she bred or bore children. That error, he conceived,
however called God to witness, that should his partners partake of
arose merely from the extreme difficulty of proving non-access
the loan, he would by no means share any profits arising there-
otherwise. Mr. Fox, in the course of his speech, expressly
from.
declared, he had no motive whatever for taking the part he
did in the business, but a wish that those who were not before
Mr. Secretary Fox rose, and before he entered into the
the House, and could not defend themselves, might be done
consideration of the terms of the loan, took notice of some
strict justice to. He concluded by moving, that the whole
things that had been offered. Ile gave Mr. Martin credit for
clause be rejected.
having sent a very honourable - letter to his noble friend, but
declared, that, nevertheless, the same sum had been given to
the House, as had been intended before the letter was written
or sent to his noble friend, a pretty strong proof that the pro-
motion of ministerial influence was not the object that directed
his noble friend's conduct, when he, in a manner that spoke
TERMS OF THE LOAN.
his candour and his justice so strongly, determined . that the
bankers in general should have shares in the loan. With re-
April t 6,
gard to what had fallen from the right honourable gentleman
--
who had so strongly objected to the present loan, he differed
THE chancellor of the exchequer, Lord John Cavendish,
a good deal in
brought forward the loan for the service of the current
some of the points:laid down by him, though
year. The sum borrowed amounted to twelve million. Eleven
he agreed in others. If he was asked whether the present
bankers, with whom the , terms of the loan were allotted, had
loan, abstracted from all other considerations than the mere
700,0001. each ; the remainder was divided amongst the rest of the
terms, was a good peace-loan, he would answer in the nega-
bankers, the great trading companies, and the clerks of the public
tive; but if all the circumstances attending the negotiation
offices. The premium, according to the value of the stocks on the
were taken into consideration, then he would contend that the
day on which the bargain was concluded, was 31. xos. per cent.
loan was better than might be expected. Be then entered
but rising considerably within a few days after, much blame was
into calculations to disprove the assertion of Mr. Pitt, that
imputed to the minister for having made so disadvantageous a bar-
DI 4
4
68
TERMS OF THE LOAN.
[April .16.
1783.]
TERMS or THE LOAN.
169
the premium amounted to 61. per cent. and he stated it to be
opulent or powerful to oppose the set already connected.
at this moment, at 3/. I os. 21d.; a premium infinitely greater
With respect to the giving the Whole, Without reserve, to the
than it ought to be in peace-time; but still he did not think
eleven bankers, who were to have seven millions seven hun-
that the public would lose more than sc,coo/. by the bargain;
dred thousand pounds of it, if that circumstance would have
a sum certainly not inconsiderable, but still not worth men-
got the public a better bargain, he would agree, it should
tioning, when the committee should consider what inconve-
have been so clone. But the 'act was otherwise. To his
niences would flow from the circumstance of delaying the loan
knowledge the condition was offered to the bankers, but they
till after the holidays. His noble friend had been appointed
would not abate their terms in consequence. So much,
chancellor of the exchequer on the 2d of April, and on the
therefore, for the right honourable gentleman's two better
16th he brings forward his loan. The delay of his predecessor
ways of making a loan. In answer to his valuation of the
was undoubtedly the cause that the present loan was not far
stocks, Mr. Fox said, he differed from the right honourable
more advantageous to the public; and therefore he was asto-
gentleman. He allowed that the bonus, if without the dis-
nished to hear a right honourable member find fault with the
count, it amounted to 4os. was too much : but he contended, that
terms, which, if they were bad, were so in consequence of his
putting each stock at its highest price, the bonus could not be
own delay. The King's speech at the opening of the session
swelled to more than five pounds, whereas the right .honour-.
was full of promises of the greatest attention to the navy debt,
able gentleman made it six, and then with a degree of fancy
and to future loans. How had these fine promises been fulfilled
and imagination, which by no means ought to be exercised
by the ministers ? No loan was made ; no plan for making a
on such a subject as that of a loan, called it a'bonus of six or
good one laid down : the exigencies of the state required that
seven per cent. Mr. Fox also said, if his noble friend even
the loan should be made speedily ; and as they would not
had the bonus of three millions to give away, it would only
brook delay, the terms could not, of course, be as good as if
have amounted to 18o,coo/. and not to 240,0001. as stated by
.the loan had been made sooner : the right honourable gentle-
the right honourable gentleman. After arguing this Very
man had remained in office long after he declared that he
closely, and resorting to a variety of calculations and inge-
would quit it ; it was his duty surely either to have made the
nious reasonings upon the doctrines of chance, as to the rise
loan in the mean-time, or by his resignation have made room
and fall of the price of the funds, Mr. Fox took a kind of side-
for some other who would have clone it : he did not mean to
wind notice of the opposition that had been given elsewhere
throw blame on the right honourable member for staying in ;
to the Irish Judicature bill. He- said the right honourable
he was not acquainted with his reasons; they might be very
gentleman had disappointed him. He had expected that he
good ; but he Was not a little surprised to hear him find fault
would have called for the performance of all the notable pro-
with the terms, which must have been better if he himself had
mises in the King's speech, relative to raising loans in future
made the loan in time, or suffered another to make it a
in such a way, that at the same time that they were raised a
month ago.
fund should be provided for paying them oft: It would not
He begged leave to remind the right honourable gentle-
have been more extraordinary to have expected the present
man of the different conduct of the noble lord Who went
ministry to have fulfilled all the flowery professions and pro-
out of the office of chancellor of the exchequer last year.
mises of the last, than when they tried to pass a bill of theirs,
That noble lord, to the moment immediately previous to his
which they found on coming into office in an advanced parlia-
resignation, executed all the duties of the office of chancellor
mentary stage, and about which scarcely any thing had been
of the exchequer. Had the right honourable gentleman fol-
said, when it was first brought in, for the adherents and sup-
lowed the noble lord's example, a loan on better terms might
porters of the last ministry to call upon them to state the rea-
have been had, and the public would have saved a con-
sons upon which the bill had been originally introduced.
siderable sum. With regard to what the right honourable
Having entered into an able discussion of the question of
gentleman had said of a competition, the loan of the last
long and short annuities, and contended very strenuously,
year had been made in that manner, and he was persuaded,
that the mode adopted by his noble friend of borrowing the
that was a bad method. In the present instance, however,
money upon an addition to funds already established rather
there was no competition to resort to. The bankers had
than on new funds, was by far the wisest method, he concluded
formed such a strong connection, and acted so much in con-
with repeating, that the badness of the present loan was ascrib-
cert, that there was no such thing as getting a set sufficiently
570
TERMS OF THE LOAN.
[April 25.
1783.] MOTION FOR A REFORM IN PARLIAMENT.
171
able to the shortness of the time in which it had been made,
staying in office till the last, the very last day, as it were, before
and that the late ministry Were solely to blame for that cir-
a loan must be made, was more the cause of its being a bad
cumstance.
Joan, than any want of endeavours of his noble friend to make
a better. Mr. Pox said, as he was talking of a bad loan, it
In the course of this. debate, Mr. Pitt and Mr. Secretary Fox
put him in mind of the peace, for it occurred to him, that the
were up several times. In one of his speeches, Mr. Pitt said, that
same cause occasioned the badness of both, namely, their
the right honourable secretary's reasoning on borrowing money to
being obliged to be made by a certain day. The loan, the
increase the capital already owing, rather than with a view of re-
committee knew,. must be made before Easter, and the peace
demption, was the reasoning of a gambler, who borrows despe-
must be made by the meeting of parliament; the hurry in
rately, without meaning ever to repay the principal.
which both were made, had rendered each, like every thing
done in a hurry, liable to much objection.
Mr. Secretary Fox replied with great keenness, and declared
the reverse of the proposition was the fact; for whether he
was or was not to be called a gambler for it, he should ever
advert to the doctrine of chances, and maintain, that borrow-
ing money on extravagant and disadvantageous terms, from a
vain hope of being able soon to- discharge that, which there
was not the smallest probability of being able to redeem, was
much more in the style of reasoning customarily held by gam-
blers; and the argument on which he should ever be governed
MR. PITT'S MOTION FOR A REFORM IN PARLIAMENT.
in public loans, was that the redemption being in the option
of the borrower, and not at the discretion of the lender, the
May 7.
borrower holds the alternative either of redeeming at a fair
price, or of keeping the lender out of his principal.
T`HIS day Mr.William Pitt made his promised motion respecting a
Reform in the parliamentary representation. As the mode of pro-
ceeding by a committee, proposed last year, had formed one of the
25.
principal objections against the reform itself, he thought it more ad-
Mr. Secretary Fox said, as often as the badness of the pre-
visable to bring forward some specific propositions: these were,
" I. That it was the opinion of the House, that measures werehighly
sent loan was objected to, so often, whether the right honour-
necessary to be taken for the future prevention of bribery and ex-
able gentleman liked it or disliked it, would he state the , fact,
,
pence at elections. z. That for the future when the majority of
tnat it was not imputable to the present administration, but
votes for any borough shall be convicted of gross and notorious
to the hurry in which it was made. "With regard to the rea-
corruption before a select committee of that House, appointed to
sons that had induced the late administration to stay in till the
try the merits of any election, such borough should be disfran-
last moment, he could not argue upon them, because he did
chised, and the minority of voters, not so convicted, should be
not know them ; he did not, therefore; charge the right ho-
entitled to vote for the county in which such borough should be
nourable gentleman, nor any body else, with criminality for
situated. 3. That an addition of knights of the shire, and of re-
their conduct, because possibly the right honourable gentle-
presentatives of the metropolis, should be added to the state of
the representation." He left the number for future discussion, but
man and others, might have very good reasons for it, but he
said he should propose one hundred. The motion was opposed by
would leave it to the candour, to the justice, to the honour,
Mr. Powys, Lord Mulgrave, Lord North, Mr. Welbore Ellis, and
and to the common sense of every man who heard him, whether
Mr. Rigby. Amongst the converts to the question appeared Mr.
it was not manifest, that the extreme hurry and difficulty,
Thomas Pitt, and Mr. Dundas, the Lord Advocate of Scotland.
under which the loan had been made by his noble friend, was
It was also supported by Sir George Savile, Mr. Byng, Mr. Beau-
in a great measure to be considered as the reason, why the
foy, Mr. Fox, Mr. Sheridan, and the Earl of Surrey.
terms of it were not better. If that was not the case, all the
u
arament on the idea that the last administration occasioned
n
Mr. Secretary Fox rose, and remarked to the House, that
that hurry, fell to the ground ; but that being the case, it was
he made no doubt there were some persons present who
fair for him to state, that the right honourable gentleman's
would attribute what he said to lukewarmness, and not to
MOTION FOR A REFORM IN PARLIAMENT. [May 7.
1783.] MOTION ,FOR A REFORM IN PARLIAMENT.
173
zeal ; however, regardless of their censure, he would freely
of the people; and the republicanism of the people had, in
deliver his sentiments, and assure the House that he most
grasping for power, taken the crown captive, and robbed it
heartily concurred with the right honourable gentleman who
of its prerogative. Certainly, in the course of two years,
made the motion, that the constitution required some reform,
something like that had happened ; but he denied that, in all
and so far from its being absurd to make any innovation on it,
the contentions he had held, and the systematic opposition,
he was certain that the nature of our constitution required in-
as it had been called, that he gave to the noble lord, that ever
novation and renovation ; for the beauty of the constitution
he struggled for power.
did not consist, as some people imagined, in theory, but in
With respect to what the noble lord had said, that by ad-
practice. He knew it was the common and the popular
ding more knights for the counties, the landed would over
opinion, that our constitution was beautiful in theory, but all
match the commercial interest; he could by no means see that
corrupt in practice. Singular as his sentiment might be upon
to be the fact; for commerce now had spread itself so uni-
the subject, he made no scruple to avow, that he looked to
versally, that the landed and the commercial interests were
the reverse as the true description of our constitution, and
inseparable, therefore he was not afraid of any harm in that
thought it admirable in practice, but imperfect and very
quarter; nor did he fear much from the aristocracy that would
faulty in theory. The theory was in its nature found
be occasioned : for although the motion went to a resolution
by experience to be absurd in several parts ; for, as it was
to add more members to the counties and capital, it by no
composed of three estates, king, lords, and commons, it was
means confined gentlemen from making any wise regulations
absurd to think that one man should have an equal power to
in the bill that would be brought in, if the motion was car-
the whole multitude; therefore, in the practical part, that
ried; and he should not probably be for adding them all to
power , was wisely curtailed, and not left in the breast of one
the counties and capital, but should be for giving some to
man, but in a government consisting of several ministers. He
the large towns of Birmingham, Manchester, &c. in order to
Regarded it as one of its chief excellencies, that it involved a
make the representation more equal.
renovating principle in itself, and by being capable of re-
He next touched on the offer of Mr. Thomas Pitt to give
peated improvement, admitted the possibility of its being from
up his borough of Old Sarum : it had a great sound, he said;
time to time carried to a degree of perfection beyond which
but in all those fine flourishes which gentlemen took, the
no human idea could go.
House should consider well the nature of the proposal. The
The right honourable secretary said much had been men-
honourable gentleman had made an offer that he knew could
tioned relative to the shortening the duration of parliaments,
not be accepted, therefore the merit was not so great as it
and some persons attributed all our calamities to the want of
appeared. There were many persons who were against the
short parliaments. He had looked into history, and found
motion, because it was an innovation ; yet they were perfectly
that when parliaments were more frequent, the nation was
agreeable to innovations; they were not against what was al-
more brilliant and successful ; he had also observed, that for
most a new doctrine, he meant an interposition of the other
a period of ninny years since the passing of the septennial bill,
House with respect to money bills ; there, merely for the
the nation had been at the pinnacle of its glory, therefore he
spirit of opposition, persons attempted to meddle with what
could infer nothing from that, nor did he, in fact, see that
they were totally ignorant of, as was plain to be seen by their
this was material either way. The noble lord (North) in talk-
conduct. [Mr. Fox here alluded to what the Earl of Shel-
ing of the American war, had said it was popular in the be-
burne had said of the right of the House of Lords to alter
b.,
that
money bills.] There one noble lord had argued about lottery
•
ginning, that it had been begun agreeably to the wishes of the
people, and. carried on by their consent until it proved unsuc-
tickets, in a manner that could not help being ridiculed ;
cessful, when a stop was put to it. He differed with him ; for
another noble lord had attempted to prove, that borrowing
although it had undoubtedly been begun by their wishes, the
money lessened a debt ; in fact, this must be the case, where
people were for putting an end to it much sooner than it was
persons officiously meddled with what did not concern them,
ended; and there he saw the defect of the House of Com-
and talked of things in a place where they had no right to
mons; it did not speak the wishes of the people quick enough.
talk of them.
He begged leave to revert to the two hypotheses mentioned
The right honourable secretary entered? into a strong vin-
by Mr. Thomas Pitt, wherein he said the despotism of the
dication of the Yorkshire and other committees from the sneer
crown had continued a minister in power against the wishes a
that had been cast on them by Mr. Powys, for the specula-
T. 74
MOTION FOR. A razonm IN PARLIAMENT.
[May 7.
1783.3
BILL FOR REGULATING, &C.
I 75
tive points they had thrown out. He wished the House to
recollect, that Sydney, Locke, and others writing on the con-
BILL FOR REGULATING CERTAIN OFFICES IN THE
stitution, had speculated far beyond what was practicable;
EXCHEQUER.
yet much good resulted from their speculations, and they were
great helps to the practical beauty of which we so much
July
boasted. He would not run into a long history of a crooked
TN the committee on the bill for regulating certain offices in the
leg, in which the honourable gentleman had conducted him-
I exchequer, the chancellor, Lord John Cavendish, proposed, that
self but lamely ; but he would, in imitation of him, make a
after the interest of the present auditors and tellers of the exche-
simile, and compare the constitution of the country to that
quer, and of the clerk of the pells, in the respective places, should
of an individual ; it was exactly the same; it was to be fed,
cease and determine, the salaries of those officers in future should
be fixed and certain, and as follow : the place of auditor 4,0001. a
it was to be nourished, it was to exist by nutriment, and
year; each tellership 2,7ool.; clerkship of the pells 3,0001.; the
would undoubtedly be liable to disorders. Suppose the pa-
place of deputy to each of the four tellers i,000l. ; the deputy to
tient had a fever and was to call for water, the physician
the clerk of the pells 8 00l.; and the receiver under him zoo/.
would not be bound to comply with his request,' but would
These regulations occasioned a debate. Mr. Pulteney strongly
mix up something that would nourish, that would be moist,
objected to granting the tellers more than the amount of their
and that would quench the thirst, and not have the evil ten-
peace-emoluments ; but more particularly laid his finger on the
dency that water would ; so it was the duty of that House
proposed increase of salary of the tellers' deputies or chief clerks.
to administer for the relief of the constitution, not exactly
He talked of the great influence the bill would throw into the scale
of the crown, and moved, " That the blanks in the bill be filled
as called for by the wild, extravagant doctrine of letting every
with the words four hundred pounds' instead of one thousand."
man who was not a fool or a madman vote, but by taking
Mr. William Pitt said, that since it was avowed that the tellership
some wise, salutary steps that would redress the grievances
ofthe exchequer were sinecures, he could not, by any means, con-
complained of. He entered very fully into the nature of the
sent that the clerks should have i000/. a year. The honourable
constitution, expressed himself a warm friend to a reform,
gentleman, who had just spoken, had stated, that all the actual bu-
,
saying, that mankind were made for themselves, not for others;
smess had been done for 4001. To what purpose, then give away
and that it was the best government where the people had
600l. a year ? There was something so barefaced, something so
the greatest share in it. He could have wished, that a corn,
unreasonable in the idea, that he could not but concur with the
mittee had been appointed similar to that moved for last year,
honourable gentleman in his motion, since neither natural inclina-
tion, a necessary attention to the state of the country, nor the least
as he did not think the present motion would go far enough;
regard to a conscientious discharge of his duty as a member ofpar-
but as he was confident it would be an amendment, he should
liament, would suffer him to vote away the public money so unwar-
give it his hearty support.
rantably. Mr. Pitt talked of the petitions of the people for re-
form ; and asked what would be the opinion without doors of con-
At two in the morning the House divided on Mr. Powys's mo-
duct like that the House were then advised to pursue ? The prin-
tion, That the orders of the day be now read:
cipal offices in the exchequer were in the face of day declared to
Tellers.
Tellers.
be sinecures. The offices of the four tellers were indisputably
Mr. Eden
L ord Mahon 1
sinecures, and it was now proposed to pay them 2700/. a year for
YEAS
293. -- No ES
Mr. J. Robinson
Mr. Byng
149"
themselves, and to give their deputies, whom they themselves ap-
Majority against Mr. Pitt's motion 144.
pointed, 'odd. a year ! This was a degree of extravagant and im-
provident expenditure of the public money, to which he never could
consent ; he therefore concurred entirely with the honourable gen-
tleman near him. Nay, his ideas went farther ; he thought the emo-
luments of the other places were stated at a much higher rate than
they ought to be. He had no notion of swelling the emoluments
ofsinecures unnecessarily and inordinately ; he should therefore ob-
jaeocaitntsot it.the whole of the clause as amended, and give his vote
Mr. Secretary Fox said, that the principle of the bill was
not so much to reduce the salaries of' these offices, as to pre-
S76
BILL FOR REGULATING
[July 4,
33•]
OFFICES IN THE EXCHEQUER.
1 77
vent the emoluments arising from them from encreasing with
the present tellers would not demean themselves in so scanda-
the public burdens, and the holders of them from being
lous a manner, but would spurn at any such proposition. And
enriched in proportion as the public should grow poorer ; and
indeed, the argument went so far, that if it were admitted,
therefore the fixed salaries moved for by his noble friend, were
there was scarce an official deputy in the kingdom whose prin-
perfectly in unison with the principle of the bill. As to the
cipal would not become liable to the same sort of imputa-
four deputies, he thought the salary of i 000l. each far from
tion. The same thing might also be said of the secretary
being too much, because their offices were by no means sine-
of state, for instance, and of the two secretaries to the
cures; and as they held places of very great trust, none but
treasury.; but would any man presume to hint an insinuation,
persons of considerable character ought to be employed in
that at any time, under any administration, a bargain of the
them; and for such persons 40o/. a year would be too inconsi-
nature m question had been driven ? He believed that man
derable a salary. He said, if the bill had purported to be a
was not to be found who would venture upon such an accusa-
bill principally brought in for the purpose of effecting that
tion ; why, then, feel an alarm upon such an account now ?
kind of reform which had economy merely in view, he should,
As a bill of influence, the present, undoubtedly, gave the crown
for one, subscribe to the sort of arguments he had heard
some influence ; but he believed it would be admitted to be a
against it; but the chief object of the bib was of another nature.
sort of influence the least dangerous of any that could possibly
His noble friend had proposed it, in order to put an end to a
exist. To put a man in such a situation, as that the crown
matter that was in itself extremely odious, and had been much,
should never be able to be useful to him, was, in his opinion,
and, in his opinion, very justly complained of; the
a very foolish and unwise thing; but to put a man into such a
existence of offices, the holders of which received an encrease
situation, as that it should be out of the power of the crown to
of emolument in proportion as the expellees of the country en-
be hurtful to him, might, in a variety of instances, be necessary
creased, and , who grew rich upon the aggravation of the pub-
and useful. He knew of no way of doing this more effectually,
lic burden, and the public distress. That was the chief aim
than by giving a man an independent situation for life. In
of the bill ; and that, as the clause was proposed to be amended,
this view he professed himself a friend to the bill; and a
it fully and completely answered. With regard to the influ-
stronger argument that his majesty's present ministers had no
ence of the crown, much as he was an enemy to the encrease
views of a personal nature in making the salaries of the tellers
of any undue influence, he was convinced, that it was impos-
27001. a year, need not be resorted to, than a consideration of
sible for the government of a great kingdom to go on, unless
who the present tellers were. Three of them, Lord Northing-
it had certain lucrative and honourable situations to bestow
ton, Lord Temple, and an honourable and respectable member
on its officers in a peculiar line, as a provision for their fa-
of that House, ifr . Pratt, younger men than his majesty's
milies, and a reward for their eminent and distinguished ser-
ministers ! The other teller, unhappily, might not be so good
vices. Of this sort were the places in the exchequer, which,
a life; but then it was pretty well known, that it was promised
though it might be necessary to lessen their inordinate emolu-
to a person not much older than any of his majesty's present
ments in times and seasons when they undoubtedly ought not
servants. He desired, in what he said, of the necessity of one -
to encrease, yet care ought to be taken, not to pare them
sort of influence remaining, not to be understood to extend
so close, or to lower them so much as to render them
his ideas as far, as he had heard arguments of that nature car-
unworthy the acceptance or expectations of great and distin-
ried in another place. He had heard it said, that if the in-
guished characters. In putting the tellers at 27001. his noble
fluence of the crown was too much diminished, men of despe-
friend had barely put them above their average peace-amount;
rate fortunes, needy adventurers, and distressed politicians,
and he made 'no doubt but his noble friend meant no more.
would be the only persons who would accept of the govern-
The encrease, however, was so trilling, that it was not worth
ment of the country. There was, he owned, something a little
disputing about. With regard to the argument, that giving
strange in the argument, that men of large property and con-
the clerk I cool. was in fact giving the principal I cool. in ad-
siderable estates could not afford to serve their country as
dition to this 2 7 001. that went upon so narrow and mean an
cheap, as those who were less affluent. He was willing, how-
idea, that he knew not how to answer it. If those who held
ever, to take the argument upon the grounds on which it had
the offices of tellers were base and sordid enough to stoop
been placed ; and since speaking of himself, he certainly could
to such a meanness, no bar the legislature had in its power to
not pretend to be a rich man, he was glad to hear it allowed,
provide, could possibly prevent it. Certain he, vas, three of
thatosL.
such
as he could afford to serve the country cheaper
COL.
1783.]
OFFICES
1 7 8
BILL FOR REGULATING
[July
IN THE EXCHEQUER.
179
9
than men of greater affluence. In the present bill, however,
since changed his mind ? Certainly it was not; circumstances
he did not think it right to take away all those emoluments,
bad altered materially : one of the possessors was dead, and
which those who had reasoned in the manner he had stated,
another very infirm. Who could be surprised, then, as the
thought so essential to remain. The noble and learned lord
object seemed more attainable, that the noble and learned
might be assured, he envied him none of those emoluments,
lord should have changed his mind, and grown more willing
nor any affluence that he could derive from office.
to accept a reversion in proportion as the object approached
nearer? But it had happened, that the House of Commons,
in the interim, had thrown a difficulty in the way, by coming
Mr. Pulteney's amendment was negatived. After this discussioiA
to that resolution which the right honourable gentleman had
Mr. Rigby being anxious to protect the promise of a tellership
stated. All that could be clone had been done by the last
which had been given to Lord Thurlow, rose up to propose a clause
with that view. He reminded the House that Lord Thurlow, when
ministry, anti a very extraordinary proceeding that was ; such
he quitted the profession and accepted the office of lord chan-
a proceeding, he believed, as had never been heard of before.
cellor, obtained from his majesty the promise of a tellership in the-
They had introduced the royal promise into the wording of
exchequer. This promise bad been made in the year 1778 ; and
the patent, granting the noble and learned lord, what was
he trusted that Lord Thurlow had a title to expect a reversion of a
generally termed a floating pension, being a pension to be
tellership fully and beneficially. He therefore intended to bring
neld and enjoyed by him till such time as the tellership should
up a clause " to exempt the case of Edward Lord Thurlow from the
fall in. But even in doing this, the late ministry (who might
operation of the bill ; his majesty having, in the year 1778, pro-
naturally be supposed to be as well inclined to serve Lord
mised to the said Lord Thurlow, on his accepting the office of lord
high chancellor, a reversion of a tellership of the exchequer, in as
Thurlow as their ability would allow) had manifested, that it
large and beneficial a manner as tellerships were then enjoyed."
was their clear and decided opinion, that the royal promise
must be subject to such restrictions and limitations as parlia-
ment should thereafter think fit to make respecting the teller-
Mr. Secretary Fox said, it was difficult for the mind always'
to discriminate between motives public and personal. In
ihips of the exchequer ; and, indeed, they had worded the
question like
like the present, it was purely personal; and to
recognition of that promise in the patent, in phrases expressly
speak on a question purely personal was certainly extremely
stating that such was their opinion. Mr. Fox produced an
disagreeable; he nevertheless thought it his duty to state to
extract from the patent, and read the sentence to the commit-
the House the true nature of the question, and then let the
tee which described the promise, and the extent in-which it
Committee adopt or reject it, as they thought proper. The
was intended to be fulfilled. After commenting upon the
right honourable gentleman who had proposed to move the
novelty or introducing the mention of any such matter in a,
clause, and his noble colleague, had declared they could not
patent, and arguing upon the conclusive argument, that
account for the noble and learned lord in question having de-
Lord Thurlow's reversion was, in the sense of the late minis-
clined to accept the offer of a tellership when it was first made
try, to be liable to the future restrictions and limitations of
him. They Would forgive him, if he declared that the me:
parliament, which the patent itself held out, he said he had
did
listened with the utmost attention to what had fallen from the
not appear to him altogether so inexplicable. IN hee
the offir was\\ first made, one reversion of a tellership was a:-
right honourable gentleman, and especially to the proviso he
141y granted ; was it, therefore, to be wondered at, that
had read, with a view to discover upon what principle lie
the noble and learned lord should not think a second reversion
meant to rest his motion. It was clear, however, that it was
quite so good a thing as might possibly conic within his reach?
in that right honourable gentleman's own opinion an applica-
They all knew that it was an unusual thing to grant a second
tion grounded on no one principle whatever, nor on the
s
reversion, and for the best reason in the'world, namely, be-
mallest scintilla of a principle. The proviso expressly stated
cause sueli a grant was generally deemed of little value; and,
the exemption for Edward Lord Thurlow ; nor was it in the
perhaps, under the peculiar circumstances under which i[
right honourable gentleman's power to put it on any other
had been made to Lord Thurlow, (with two very young men
ground whatever. • The House, therefore, would consider,
in possession, a third young man in reversion, and the first
that in the present case, there was no grant of a reversion to
Plead upon : it was submitted to their consideration whether
teller at that time, to all appearance, a good life) it was o f
less value than at any other time-it could have been. Was it
they should go out of their way to do a favour to Edward
to be wondered at that the noble and learned lord should have
Lord Thurlow : and if they chose to adopt a proviso 1OUIlded,
N 2
111
183
BILL FOR REGULATING
[July 4.
I 7 8 3 . 11
OFFICES IN THE EXCHEQUER.
18 1
on no principle, but merely stated as the case of Edward
pressed this the more urgently, because that House and the
Lord Thurlow, they undoubtedly had a right to do so. He
public had been so unfairly dealt with upon the subject. It
meant not to press his arguments upon them, nor to urge
had long been made a boast of as a great merit in the noble
them to reject the clause, should it be moved. It was his duty
and learned lord, that he had accepted the seals uncondition-
to state to them what the motion really was that they were
ally; and on Friday last his friends had declared the noble
about to have made, and having clone so, he should leave it
lord had made a bargain for a tellership as the price of the
entirely to their judgment to act respecting it as they thought
situation he quitted when he took the seals. Both these things
proper. Mr. Fox, in the course of his speech declared, that
could not be true ; nor had the noble and learned lord any
lie spoke from no motive of resentment whatever. Gentlemen
right to take all the merit of the one, and all the advantage of
might imagine, that certain severe reflections personally made
the other. He declared himself an enemy to all impostures, and
upon him by the noble and learned lord of late, in consequence
therefore it was that he wanted to come atthe fact. lithe friends
of their having a difference in respect to political opinion, and
a the noble lord avowed it to havebeen a bargain, they had a
what had passed elsewhere, might have soured his mind, and
right to the exemption. If they placed Lord Thurlow on su-
rendered him adverse to the clause. He assured the commit-
perior ground, and said, it was (what he believed it to have
tee he spoke from no such motives ; and though the noble and
been, and what his majesty himself described it to have been,
learned lord had thought proper to say, that when the crown
in the patent in which he recognised it) an unsolicited and
was stripped of its power of reward, none but desperate and
spontaneous promise on the part of his majesty, they stood
needy adventurers would accept of office, he did assure that
upon very different grounds indeed, and it would be for the
noble lord's friends, that he by no means wished to deny him
House to decide whether such an exemption should be made
any share of that affluence which he seemed to consider as so
or not. If it was a bargain, the noble lord had an indisputa-
essential a qualification for office.
ble claim to it; if he claimed it as a promise, then surely he
must take it in the words of his patent — " subject to such re-
The proviso of Mr. Rigby was agreed to without a division. But
gulations as our parliament may hereafter adopt." For his
though he was thus successful in a committee upon the bill, on the
part, he would not suffer any man to avail himself of the
report of the Committee being presented to the House, his efforts
merit of having taken the great seal without any bargain or
for Lord Thurlow were less ibrtunate. To give the greater
stipulation, and come afterwards to parliament to claim an
strength to his proviso, he had expressed it in new language, and
exemption from certain regulations on the ground of having
rested it on the foundation, that in the patent for Lord Thurlow's
made a bargain. He denied that he had pledged himself to
pension, his majesty had been pleased to promise the place of a
tellership of the exchequer to him when he accepted the office of
adopt the clause in the manner stated by the right honourable
lord chancellor. He did not know whether he was to call his
gentleman. He had, indeed, consented to receive the clause
noble friend's pretension to the exemption a-promise or a bar-
that night in the committee; but he had by no means bound
gain ; but he hoped it would appear to the House, as it had con-
himself down to agree to the amendment of that clause that
vinced the Committee, that it was such a pretension as was well en-
should be proposed in the House on the report : nor was he
titled to the protection of parliament.
now disposed to agree to it, but on one condition he had
stated, and that was — let some friend of the noble and learned
Mr. Secretary Fox said, he would not object to the motion,.
lord get up and avow, that the noble and learned lord had
provided any eithe friends of Lord Thurlow would get up and
bargained for the tellership when he took the seals. He con-
say, that they claimed this for him as a bargain, and not as a
cluded by saying, that if the clause should be said to be
promise. He- had understood that this was admitted on Fri-
founded on a bargain, he would not oppose it; but if on a
day, and it was in consequence of so understanding, that he
promise, he would take the sense of the House upon it, as it
had given up his opposition, and consented to receive the
was not worded according to the manner in which the pro-
clause that had been then moved. Let him hear the same
mise was expressed in the patent.
avowed now, and he would not oppose the motion ; but one
of two things must be cleared up ; it either was a promise or
a bargain. If a bargain, as he had just declared, there could
The proviso agreed to in the committee was rejected by the
be no objection to the clause passing as now proposed ; if a
House ; and on Mr. Rigby's clause, declaring " That nothing in
promise, theca the sense of the House must be taken. ge
the act contained shall extend to affect any grant which may be
N 3
182
PUBLIC ACCOUNTANTS.
[July Ie.
1783.]
PUBLIC =ACCOUNTANTS.
1 83
made to Edward Lord Thurlow, of a reversion of a tellership of
before any one had time to look into it, Mr. William Pitt rose to
the exchequer," the House divided :
make a motion upon it. He said that from the book that had been
Tellers.
just laid upon the table, it appeared that forty-four millions of the
Mr. Rigby 1
Mr. Byng
public money had been issued to public accountants, who had not
YEAS
-NOES I
Mr. Kenyon C 49
Mr. Sheridan J 57•
passed any account whatever for these sums before the auditors of
So it passed in the negative. Mr. Hussey then moved the
the imprest : he did not wish to be understood to mean that such a
following clause, " That the officers of the exchequer shall receive
sum was due to the public, and might be recovered ; he did not
no greater emoluments in time of war than in time of peace."
believe there was even an hundredth part of it that was due or re-
coverable ; nay, he knew that many of the persons who stood as
Mr. Secretary Fox opposed the clause ; he declared, that
debtors to the public, in the book then on the table, had actually
he would not touch places that had been considered as free-
passed their accounts before the treasury; nay, that in the
holds, and negotiated as personal property. , Of all the influ-
case of contracts, the money had actually been due, before it
ence of the crown, he knew of no species of influence so much
had been issued from the , exchequer, because the service to
to be dreaded as the influence of terror. Those who pro,:
which the contractors were bound by their contracts, had
fessed themselves the warmest and most strenuous advocates
been performed before the issuing of the money : but still
for extending the influence of the crown of another kind, were,
though the money had been accounted for. in substance, it had not
been accounted for in form, because the accounts had not passed
he believed, as adverse as he was to this influence of terror,
before the auditors of the iniprest : this, he said, might be an ar-
because they knew that if it were suffered to be exercised in
gument against the present forms of passing accounts in the ex-
one instance, it would be exercised in many others, and in
chequer, as such a length of time must necessarily elapse before
short that it would shake the whole kingdom. He therefore
they were likely to be called for, that in the mean time the
was determined to resist it wherever the attempt was made to
money might be dissipated. He said, that it might be proper
exert it. He said farther, that in all matters of reform, it
to pass an act of parliament to operate as a quietus to the
was necessary and wise to begin in as broad and intelligible a
representatives of accountants, to whom money had been is-
manner as possible : he presumed his noble friend had chosen
sued fifty years ago, and where the vouchers for the expendi-
ture might, through lapse of time, have been lost ; but on the
in the present bill to save whole and entire the rights of all
other hand, it would be as proper to compel accountants of a
those persons, now in possession of places in the exchequer,
later date to pass their accounts, and pay such balances as should
for this reason : and to fix the time for the operation of the
he due to the public. He concluded, by moving, " that an hum-
bill to commence, at the period of the lives of such persons as
ble Address be presented to his majesty, representing to his ma-
were in actual possession of the offices it went to affect. He
jesty; that it appears that large sums of money, which have at dif-
thought the idea a wise one, and being persuaded, that any
ferent times, and many of them very long since, been paid for
attempt to alter it would produce a bad elect, and the attempt
public services to sub-accountants, amounting in the whole to
now made the worst effect possible, he should give the motion
above forty-four millions, have not yet been accounted for before
for leave to bring up the clause his positive negative.
the auditors of. the Imprest ; and that though many of them may
have been otherwise accounted for in the course of office, yet
others, to a very large amount, have not. been accounted for at alt.
The clause was negatived without a division.
That it appears to this House to be of the utmost importance, that
all public accounts should be brought forward with as little delay
as possible, and that therefore they do humbly beseech his majesty
to be graciously pleased to give directions, that the most effectual
measures should be taken to enquire concerning the persons to
whom the said sums have been issued, or their legal representa-
PUBLIC ACCOUNTANTS.
tives, and particularly those to whom money has been issued in
the course of the late expensive war, and to take measures in all
July to.
cases where there shall appear to be sufficient ground to compel
them in due course of law to account for the same ; and that
-TN conformity to the order of the House, Lord John Cavendish
-
this House will in due time co-operate in such measure as may, on
a- laid before them a book containing a " List of the Public Ac-
countants who have received Public Money by way of Imprest,
full deliberation, appear to be proper, in order to prevent the like
and upon Account, and who have not yet accounted for the same,
delays for the future." Mr. Grenville seconded the motion. Mr.
Sheridan moved two amendments to the motion. The one was to
and of those Persons from whom Balances of declared Accounts
l
are still due." The moment the book was laid upon the table, and
eave out the words " it appears to this House," and insert in their
II
N 4
184
?metre ACCOUNTANTS.
[July 10.
I783.]
ADAMS ON TIM KING'S SPEECH.
18s
stead the following, " this House having reason to believe ;" the
gentleman who moved the address, and his friends who sup-
other to leave out the specific sum of forty-four millions, so that
ported it, should so loudly and so vehemently complain that
the phrase would run generally that great sums, &c. had been
ministers were averse to enquiry, and that they were de-
issued, and had not been accounted for.
termined to oppose every proposition of reform, when neither
his honourable friend who had proposed the amendments,
Mr. Secretary Fox said, he would adopt the amendments
nor any other person who had spoken in favour of them,
in preference to the original motion, because he preferred
had made the least opposition to the main object of the ad-
truth to falsehood ; it was true that he had reason to believe
dress. To that nobody objected. The amendments would
()Teat sums were still to be accounted for; but it would be
neither prejudice or diminish it. Considered as an enquiry,
•
a falsehood to assert, when no authentic document was before
with a view to prospective regulation, the book upon the
the House, that " it appears" to the House, that great sums
table was every way adequate. If the enquiry was meant
arc still unaccounted for; and still more false would it be to
to be retrospective, undoubtedly the book was not a ground
state these sums to amount to forty-four millions. But the
of sufficient authenticity to rest a proceeding upon. But,
right honourable member probably had his views for stating a
what purpose would it answer to go into a retrospective
specific sum; such, probably, as those persons had, who
enquiry, where there was so small a hope of benefit?
when his noble relation (the late Lord Holland) had about
400,0001. of the public money in his hands, called him the
The amendments were adopted, and the address as amended,
public defaulter of unaccounted millions ; and said, that
agreed to.
he had forty millions still in his hands to account for. Fifty
millions of public money unaccounted for, had been roundly
asserted to be the sum that the motion of the 28th of Fe-
bruary would bring to light. The right honourable gen-
tleman, who made the motion, had now chosen to say, he
had talked only of forty-nine millions, and lo ! the book
ADDRESS ON THE KING ' S SPEECH AT THE OPENING or THE
upon the table, in proof of the authenticity of which the
SESSION.
House had heard so much from the other side of the House,
stated only forty-four millions, of which the right honourable
November
gentleman had himself declared, he did not think the " one
T HE King opened the session with the following speech to
hundredth part" of the sum was recoverable, or much of
both Houses:
it due. Having put this in a point of view that flashed con-
" My lords and gentlemen; I have the satisfaction to inform
viction with it, Mr. Fox took notice of the manner in which -
you that definitive treaties of peace have been concluded with
the book had been brought forward, and said, if he were
the courts of France and Spain, and with the United States of
obliged to pass an opinion on the fact, he should certainly
.America. Preliminary articles have been also ratified with the
declare, that his noble friend did wrong to present the book
States General of the united provinces. I have ordered these
several treaties to be laid before you; and I am happy to add,
at all. His noble friend's well-known, extreme candour,
that I have no cause to doubt but that all those powers agree
and his wish on all occasions to please every person, added.
with me in my sincere inclination to keep the calamities of war
to the idea, that producing such a book might gratify the
at a great distance.— The objects which are to be brought under
curiosity of the House, were certainly reasons that obviously
your deliberation, will sufficiently explain my reasons for calling
accounted for his noble friend's having been induced to
you together after so short a recess. Enquiries of the utmost
present the book at the bar. But if he had been consulted,
importance have been long and diligently pursued, and the fruit
he should certainly have advised the noble lord not tohave
of them will be expected. The situation of the East India com-
brought it in; and he was persuaded, if his noble friend had
pany will require the utmost exertions of your wisdom to maintain
taken more time to consider of the matter, and it had
and improve the valuable advantages derived from our Indian
oc-
possessions, and to promote and secure the happiness of the native
curred to his mind, that so ill a use was likely to be made
inhabitants of those provinces. — The season of peace will call
of the book, when presented, he would have been of the same
upon you for an attention to every thing which can recruit the
opinion. After urging this very strongly, Mr. Fox observed,
strength of the nation, after so long and so expensive a war. —
that it was a little extraordinary that the right' honourable
The security and increase of the revenue, in the manner least
IO
i86
ADDRESS ON THE KING'S SPEECH.
[Nov. i r.
1783.]
ADDRESS ON THE RING'S SPEECH.
187
burthenSome to my 'subjects, will be amongst your first objects.
honourable gentleman, when he exultingly observed that the
In many essential parts it has suffered : dangerous frauds have
present address to which the Home were called upon to assent,
prevailed, and alarming outrages have been committed. Exer-
was substantially the same with that to which, in -February
tions have not been wanting to repress this daring spirit, nor pains
last, they gave a negative: the right honourable member
to enquire into its true causes. In any instances in which the
wished to fasten on the present ministers the imputation of
powers of government may not be equal to its utmost care and
inconsistency ; there was a circumstance that he had thought
vigilance, I have no doubt that the wisdom of my parliament will
provide such remedies as may be found wanting for the accom-
proper not to mention, which would make the inconsistency
plishment of purposes, in which the material interests of this nation
vanish. He (Mr. Fox) thought the preliminary articles such
are so deeply concerned.
as the then situation of the country did not warrant; and
" Gentlemen of the House of Commons ; I have ordered the
yet he was ready to vote for this address; but why? because
estimates of the expences for the year to be laid before you.
the signing of the preliminary articles had pledged the faith
From those you will perceive the reduction which I have made
of the nation, and rendered the signing of the definitive
in all the establishments, which appear to me to be brought as
treaties a matter not so much of choice as of necessity ; and
low as prudence will admit ; and you will participate with me in
therefore as it had become necessary to conclude them, it
the satisfaction which I feel in this step towards the relief of my
was surely proper to thank his majesty for having put the
subjects. At the end of a war some part of its weight must ine-
vitably be borne for a time. I feel for the burthens of my people :
finishing hand to a treaty which he could not refUse to sign,
but I rely on that fortitude which has hitherto supported this
without a violation of public faith. During the last session
nation under many difficulties, for their bearing those, which the
of parliament, he had declared his opinion pretty roundly
present exigencies require, and which are so necessary for the full
about the preliminaries of peace; he then pronounced them
support of the national credit.
to be less advantageous than, from the relative situation of
" My lords,. and gentlemen ; in many respects our situation is
affairs, this country had a right to expect. He still was of
new. Your counsels will provide what is called for by that situa-
that opinion, and considered the preliminary articles, in every
tion ; and your wisdom will give permanence to whatever has been
point of view, as inadequate to our claims; and he begged
found beneficial by the experience of ages. In your deliberations
you will preserve that temper and moderation which the impor-
leave to call back to the memory of the House the situation
tance of their objects demands, and will, I have no doubt, pro-
of our affairs at that time. In the East Indies, where our
duce ; and I am sure that you are unanimous in your desire to
affairs bad been said to be the most desperate, what had hap-
direct all those deliberatiorA to the honour of my crown, the safety
pened to make us rejoice that peace had been concluded ?
of my dominions, and the prosperity of my people."
Had any Englishman looked to an engagement between the
An address in the usual form, was moved by the Earl of Upper
British and French fleets, in that quarter of the world, with
Ossory, and seconded by Sir Francis Basset. Mr. William Pitt
any other apprehension, than that which every humane man
animadverted with great triumph on the inconsistency of the mi.
feels, who repines at the prospect of an event by which much
nisterial side of the House, in voting an address of thanks to the
king,
human blood must be shed, and uselessly too, after
for having concluded definitive treaties of peace, the very
a peace
transcript of those preliminary articles•which they had before voted
is concluded? 'When any man said that our fleets had de-
to be inadequate and dishonourable. He likewise called loudly
creased, and our finances had been disordered, and then
on the minister to bring forward without delay some plan for se-
assigned these circumstances as reasons for concluding such
curing and improving the advantages that might be derived from
a peace as the last, it was incumbent on that man to prove,
our possessions in the East ; a plan, not of temporary palliation,
that the decrease in the one, and disorder in the other, had
of timorous expedients, but vigorous and effectual, suited to the
taken place simply, and without being accompanied, by
magnitude, the importance, and the alarming exigency of the
similar misfortunes in the fleets and finances of the enemy,
case.
for if, when it is proved that we have suffered, it is also made
manifest, that the enemy has suffered in the same proportion,
Mr. Secretary Fox returned his warm thanks to the right
then the relative misfortune on our side cannot be set up as
honourable gentleman, and said, that few things could give
a good argument to justify the making of the late peace.
him greater satisfaction than to find that both the speech and
Our finances, it was true, were not in as good a state as
address appeared unexceptionable to him, and that they were
we could wish; but in order to shew that the state of our
to be honoured with his support. At the same time he could
finances pointed out the necessity of making peace to avoid a
not allow that there was any ground for the triumph of the
national bankruptcy, it ought to be proved that the treasury
188
ADDRESS ON THE KING'S SPEECH.
[Nov.
ADDRESS ON THE KING'S SPEECH.
189
1783.]
of the enemy was in such a state as to set bankruptcy at
every condition that could be asked for the protection of
defiance: he believed that the honourable gentleman would
those, who had no longer the happiness to be the subjects of
not think himself justified from any event that had happened
his majesty; they were now as effectually secured as when
this summer (alluding to the failure of the Caisse d'Escomte
they were so. This alone he conceived to be a matter of
in Paris), to undertake to prove that the French treasury was
some moment, and worth the delay complained of. Again,
in any such condition. It was, therefore, fair to say, that
if the honourable gentleman would proceed a little farther
the preliminary articles did not answer the claims of the pub-
in comparing the two treaties, he will find, that by the pre-
lic, nor satisfy their expectations; but the right honourable
liminary treaty, no boundaries were ascertained for our car-
gentleman's argument that these were in fact the same, and
rying on the gum trade; whereas, by the I I111 article of the
that therefore the thanks in the present instance was an eu-
definitive treaty, the boundaries were expressly laid down
Fogium on the ministers who made the peace, was not well
and described ; that ambiguity and want of precision which
founded: there was a little circumstance which made a ma-
would have been the productive source of quarrels, was re-
terial difference in the comparison. The faith of the nation
moved; and it would not be easy to dispute on the mean-
was to be taken against the situation of the country. Know-
ing of the spirit of the article as now worded. According
ing and feeling our pretentions to better terms; incapable of
to the preliminary articles, the gum trade was to be carried
accepting such as we had procured; the present ministers yet
on in the same manner in which it used to be carried on
ratified the treaties. They had no alternative; and therefore
before the year 1755; that is to say, when it was carried on
it was not to be stated that the cases were parallel, or that
by violence, and constantly attended by acts of hostility, which
there was any comparison between the preliminary articles
daily afforded grounds of quarrel, that might possibly in the
and the definitive treaties.
end bring on a war, that would defeat the right honourable
" But," it was said, " the definitive treaties might have
member's laudable wishes for the establishment of a real
been concluded sooner, especially as there was no difference."
sinking fund, for paying off some part of the national debt: —
Certainly, if there was no difference they might have been
by the care taken during the late negotiation, the coast on
procured sooner : but was there not great ancd essential dif-
which the gum trade might be carried on was ascertained,
ference? Were there not points obtained which more than
he hoped to the satisfaction of all the persons concerned in
justified, and which more than compensated for the delay of
it; at least it was an advantage to have it ascertained. A
a few weeks, or even of a few months ? They might have been
third variation, if he carried his comparison a little farther,
concluded sooner perhaps; it was his opinion they might;
lie would find in the 13th article, about the meaning con-
but in this their conduct was to be judged of fairly; it must
cerning which so many doubts had been expressed in the
be enquired what they had gained by the delay, and what
House last session. The words, " ancient possessions," stood
they had suffered. If they had procured certain points which
in the preliminary treaties as the only description of the pos-
were before doubtful or obscure, and that without incurring
sessions of our allies in India, without any definition as to
expence, certainly the delay would be approved of; and on
what time the word ancient referred. In the article in the
this ground he wished the matter to be tried. If the right
definitive treaty it would be found, that the period was fixed
honourable gentleman would give himself the trouble to read
and ascertained by the insertion of the year 1776. These
and compare the preliminary and definitive treaties, he would
three differences, therefore, were to be urged in defence of the
find, that the latter were not exact transcripts of the former.
delay in question. But there still remained a fourth, which
There were some few variations, to some of which the noble
occasioned more trouble than all the rest, and that, though
lord who moved the address had alluded; either of which,
the House in general might not immediately comprehend it,
in his humble opinion, was well worth the delay of a few
the right honourable gentleman would fully understand, and.
weeks, or even of a few months. If the right hononrable
that was, the settling the period for the negotiation of a treaty
gentleman would take the trouble to look to the 7th article
of commerce, which is now filled up in the definitive treaty
in each, he would find, that by the preliminary treaty, the
with the words, " within the space of two years, to be com-
island of Tobago was to be ceded to France, but that no
puted from the 1st of January 178 4," which fixes the period
regard whatever had been paid to the protection of the Pro,-
for the negotiation to two years. Pending the negotiation, it
testant and British inhabitants. Whereas, by the definitive
was reasonable to suppose the three nations would in com-
treaty, it was evident, that care had been taken to stipulate
mercial matters be bound by the treaty of Utrecht: and this
799
ADDRESS ON THE KING'S SPEECH.
[Nov.
1
ADDRESS ON' THE KING'S SPEECH.
`)3 3 •]
19!
he imagined was the sense of the British ministers. But sup-
ratify it ; and whatever the ministers who advised the signing
posing the two years should expire before the new commer-
of the preliminary articles might think to the contrary, he was
cial arrangements should take place, a question would natu-
bold to say, that from a comparison of the losses and advan-
rally arise, What would, in this case, become of the treaty of
tages on both sides between France and England, he was
Utrecht? For his part, he was of opinion, that the treaty
convinced that the ministers of the former power had, by ma-
of Utrecht would, in such a case, still remain in full force ;
king the peace when they did, rendered their country as
but he knew, on the other hand, that this had not been the
great a service as had ever been rendered by any statesman,
opinion of the courts of Madrid and Versailles, the ministers
to any country, at the end of any war.
of which contended, that if the negotiations should end with-
The right honourable member .was surprised that no com-
out producing any new commercial arrangements, the treaty
mercial treaty with America had been signed : but, in fret,
of Utrecht would, in that case, be completely annulled : the
there was no ground for surprise; the late administration had
consequence, therefore, would be this, that Great Britain.
not been blamed, as the right honourable member imagined,
•
I
would be obliged to comply with all the requisitions of these
for not having produced a commercial system to parliament;
two courts, or else adopt one side of this disagreeable alter-
but for having, in the first instance, signed the provisional
native — either to live without any commercial intercourse
treaty, without having made any stipulations in favour. of
between France and Spain, or to go to war with them, in
British commerce ; and in the next, for not having brought
order to procure advantageous terms of commerce. In either
forward some regulations adapted to the situation of the mo-
case this country must suffer: she must either consent to
ment, which should hold, till a general system could be form-
forego the benefits arising from the treaty of Utrecht, which
ed and adopted. For his part, he was free to own, that he
had always been deemed highly beneficial ; or else run the
might have signed the definitive treaty with America sooner
risk of losing all those blessings by a new war, which we might
if he had thought it necessary; but having all along looked
expect to derive from the peace. By the delay , that had in-
upon the provisional treaty as definitive and absolute, when a
tervened, all these difficulties had been removed ; the treaty
particular event should happen, which had since taken place,
of Utrecht, and all others between France, Spain, and this
namely, the peace with France, he did not think any ratifica-
1
country, had been unconditionally revived and renewed ; so
tion necessary. This was the language he had held in his dis-
that let the negotiations for new commercial arrangements
patches to our negotiators: but as the other powers were of
terminate as they may, England cannot be worse than she is:
opinion, that they ought not to sign the definitive treaties, un-
if the negotiation should succeed, so much the better; if it
til the provisional articles should have been previously ratified,
should not, then she will find herself just where she is, in the
he gave way, because he did not think proper to defer the
full enjoyment of the benefits of the .treaty of Utrecht, and
signature of the definitive treaties with the other powers, until
this would be filially settled in two years from the 1st of
America and England could have settled the terms of a com-
January 1784. If no other advantage had been derived
mercial treaty; and also because he was of opinion, that the
from the delay, he thought it was well compensated ; and
negotiation might be better carried on in London or Phila-
now that the business was concluded, he would not hesitate
delphia than in Paris. In the steps which they had taken,
to say, that, bound as he knew the public faith to have been
the utmost care and attention had been used to bring back to
by the preliminary articles, he would have concluded the de,
this country the minds, the affections, the commerce of America.
fiuitive treaties on the basis of them, if the ministers of the
The gentleman who was sent to Paris to negociate this treaty,
other belligerent powers had not thought proper to recede
was qualified for the task, as much from his extensive know-
from the letter of them. in these several instances.
ledge of the interests of the two countries, as from his
He hoped that from all he had said, the House would not
character for integrity, and the love of freedom: his abili-
think the delay had been useless ; and that they would acquit
ties in this negotiation had been apparent, and he deserved
him of inconsistency in condemning the preliminary articles
'well of his country. He adverted to the measure of giving his
in the last session, and yet calling upon gentlemen to vote for
majesty in council discretional powers for a limited time, in
an address that approved of definitive treaties that were found-
regard to the management of the commerce of the two coun-
ed upon them : it was proper now to carry into effect, what it
tries. The right honourable gentleman's observations on that
might have been better for the nation had never been pro-
act certainly were not excited by any evil which had been ex-
posed; but having once been done, there was a necessity to
192
ADDItESS ON 'mit RING'S SPEtC11.
[Nov. 1 s,
1783j
ADDRESS ON THE KING'S SPEECH.
1.93
perienced. No danger nor injury had as yet arisen from these
fore him. During their continuance in office, however, it -was,.
discretional powers : but had they not been extended in dura-
well known that certain resolutions, touching the recall of a
tion, he must before now have come to parliament for fresh
governor, grounded on one of the reports of the select com-
powers, as the system of commerce had not been settled.
mittee, were proposed, and agreed to by the House; that the
The right honourable member wondered that the India bu-
directors of the East India company ordered the recall of the
-siness had been'&) long postponed. On this point he was rea-
governor in question; that the general court of proprietors
dy to take shame to himself; for the state of our affairs in the
over-ruled the resolution of the court of directors; and that
East had for sonic time been such, that they could ill brook
dispatches were made ready upon the business at the India
any delay. The right honourable gentleman had declared,
house, and upon being sent to the secretary of state for the
that there were in the present ministry some, who had long ago
home department for his inspection and concurrence, agree-
been extremely clamorous for the adjustment of a system of
ably to an act of parliament, Mr. Townshend stopped them,
government, applicable to the situation of our affairs in that
and in his place stated to the House what he had done, and
quarter of the globe. In that some Mr. Fox acknowledged
his reasons for, so doing. In this, Mr. Townshend, in his
himself to be included : but important and pressing as the
opinion, had acted with great propriety ; but all was anarchy
business of India undoubtedly was, he could very easily ac-
and confusion, both in the East and in the direction at home.
count for nothing systematic having yet been proposed to par-
What was done by the one, was undone by the other. There
liament respecting it : the rapid change ofministers for these
was no efficacy in the system of the government, and it was
last two years, was the reason why nothing had hitherto been
indispensably necessary that something should be immediately
done. Various committees, he observed, had been from time
done : but as it then lay with the House to come to some re-
to time appointed by that House, and such infinite pains had
solution upon the business, the fault, certainly, was not impu-
been taken to investigate and enquire into the real state of our
table to any one of the administrations he had mentioned.
Indian territories ; and such able and accurate reports had
With regard to that, in which he had then the honour to bear
been made upon the subject, that no popular assembly could
a part, they came not into office till April; May was the earliest
possibly be better informed, than that House was, relative to 40
month that lie could have brought in any bill ; and when it was
Eastern events, and the situation of our affairs there; but from
considered, that although that House was well instructed in
the mere accident of the rapidly-succeeding changes of minis-
the concerns of India, the other had not had the. same oppor-
try, it had been impossible to do any thing essential in the bu-
tunities for information, lie thought it more advisable to de-
siness. The secret and select committees, who had so remark-
lay the matter during a. short recess, and to bring it on early
ably distinguished themselves by their assiduity and ability,
in this session, than to precipitate a business so extremely Me-
had both originated in the administration of the noble lord in*
portant at the tail of the last, to put an end to which so gene-
the blue ribbon : and as a learned gentleman had been appoint-
ral an impatience was expressed. To convince gentlemen,
ed chairman of the secret committee, who lived at the time in
however, that it was his design to bring it forward immediately,
great friendship and confidence with the minister, it was not
he would take advantage of the full House that he then saw,
to be doubted but that the learned gentleman would have pro-
and give notice, that on Tuesday he should make a motion
posed something material upon the subject, if his achninistra-
relative to India.
tion had not been suddenly dissolved. The short administra-
The right honourable member had said, that with respect to
tion of the noble marquis, whose name could not be mention!,.*
the state of the nation, nothing ought to be kept back, but, all
ed without exciting the most lively regret in the breast of every
ought to be submitted to the public eve; and that such burdens
well-wisher to his country, left no time for entering upon
ought to be cheerfully submitted to, as should be found ne-
that business ; and even the noble earl, who had been at the
cessary to restore public credit, and raise such a revenue as
head of the last administration, had not time to take any ef,
would help to extinguish some part of the national debt. He
fectual measures to heal the wounds which former governors
rejoiced to hear this language from the right honourable mem-
had given to India. The learned gentleman to whom he al-
ber, because he hoped, that when the state of the nation should
luded (Mr. Dundas) lived in as much confidence with the no--
he laid before parliament faithfully and fully, the right honour-
4
ble earl, as he had before done with the noble lord, and cer-.
able member would support government in laying on the bur-
tainly, if the time had not been too short, he would have
dens that should be found indispensably necessary. The pub-
brought forward resolutions on the evidence which came be-;
l ic faith must be preserved inviolate; and as to all the nonsense
VOL. II.
0
r
17831
194
ADDRESS ON THE KING'S SPEECH.
[Nov. I.I.
ADDRESS ON THE KING'S SPEECH.
195
of taxing the funds, and such doctrines as had been broached
lie, in time of peace, could bear to be additionally burdened,
by writers, not anonymous writers indeed, but whose names
or how far it was prudent for ministers to go. It might be
lent no credit to their works, they had his execration. It was a
contended, that the people ought not to be so far pressed, as
measure which no honest minister would take, and which, if any
to deprive them of all elasticity and vigour in case of the
dishonest man presumed to take, no parliament would justify or
chance of another war. This argument had its weight to a
bear. Such a measure could never be adopted in such a govern-
certain degree; but he should think it better policy to make
ment as ours, where public faith and public credit were the same
them temporary than lingering sufferers. If that House
thing. From the general terms in which the right honour-
would but have the fortitude to lay aside local prejudices, and
able gentleman had begun to mention the national faith and
the fear of a momentary unpopularity, and would look only
the finances of the country, he said, he had been led to ima-
to the general welfare, the path to prosperity would be con-
gine, that he meant to propose some enquiry that would keep •
siderably smoothed, and the national prospect would brighten
the subject at a distance; but the right honourable gentleman
apace. Whenever the present ministry were found to shrink
had afterwards, in a manly and open way, declared the pro-
from their duty in this respect, he desired the House to with-
per remedy to be applied. It was to look the situation of the
draw their support; but it depended upon parliament to give
country in the face, to determine to meet the difficulty, great
execution and effect to the plans that ministers should pro-
as it professedly was to provide for it, be the burden ever so
pose. He wished, however, most earnestly to impress this
grievous; and to take care that the debt, funded and un-
idea upon the minds of the House, that strengthening the
funded, be ascertained; and neither to conceal the true state
hands of government, was not strengthening the present ad-
of it from the people at large, nor, what was still more un-,
ministration. It was not a matter of party, or of one side
wise, to conceal it from themselves. There was a maxim laid
of the House against another. It was essential to the deli-
down, in an excellent book upon the Wealth of Nations,
verance of the empire; and he was ready to declare his opi-
Mr. Fox said, which had been ridiculed for its simplicity,
nion, that though our affairs were deranged and bad, they
but which was indisputable as to its truth. In that book it
were not desperate. He did not view them with the melan-,
was stated, that the only way to become rich, was to manage
choly eye that some men were fond of considering them with,
matters so, as to make one's income exceed one's expences.
nor would he venture to propose the remedies which were
This maxim applied equally to an individual and to a nation:
suggested. The funds, he said, were unexpectedly and un-
The proper line of conduct, therefore, was by a well-directed
reasonably low; they ought not to be as they were: but at
economy to retrench every current expence, and to make as
the same time he did not indulge the illusive hope, that they
large a saving, during the peace, as possible. Nor was this
would suddenly rise, and stand at a much higher price.
all: he would freely own that his wishes went much farther.
This, however, he was convinced might be done; our ex-
He should not think a prospect of recovery was opened, and
pellees might be brought considerably within our revenue:
the country likely to be restored to its former greatness, un-
and this was the project; the easy, simple, practicable pro-
less ministers contrived some means or other to pay off a part
ject upon which he would rely, in preference to all the san-
at least of the national debt, and did something towards
guine schemes, and to all the desperate remedies, which
establishing an actual sinking fund, capable of being applied
weak men in their ignorance might suggest. It was that
to a constant and sensible diminution of the public burdens.
which would give permanency and actual use to the sinking
To such a purpose he should most studiously direct his atten-
fund, which would leave it annually- at the disposal of par-
tion; and he trusted, whatever might be the right honourable.
liament, to be appropriated as the necessities might-require.
gentleman's private opinion upon politics, the right honour-
To attain this durable situation, great . reforms must yet be
able gentleman would lend his support to make a strong go'
made, and much must depend on the virtue, constancy, and
verni»ent, by which he meant not a strong administration,
ability of government. If he could indulge himself with the
for the thing was the same, let who would be ministers. In
idea, that the unanimity of this clay, an unanimity which
order to effect, however, this great, this desirable end, the
gave him the most sensible delight, was the earnest of future
dread of unpopularity must be surmounted, and the minis-
temper, moderation, and union—if he could see the pros-
try who flinched from the business upon so narrow-minded
pect, that the spirit of dissention was at length to give way
a principle, would not deserve support. The great difficulty
to the necessities of the country, and that at least they were
lay in drawing the line, and distinguishing how 'far the Fib'
to suspend their personal animosities till the deliverance of
02
1 9 6MR. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS.
[Nov. 18.
1783.]
MR. Fox's EAST INDIA BILLS.
197
the country was accomplished, he should, indeed, be warm
the proposition he should have the honour to move, he felt
in his expectations, and believe that a very few years would
much comfort and consolation in this circumstance, that the
behold us in renovated strength and splendour. He thanked
measure to which he should call the attention of the _douse
the right honourable gentleman for his conduct on that day;
was one not of choice, but of necessity: it was no idle specula-
and professed his happiness, that the speech from the throne,
tion on Ins part; the business forced itself upon him, and upon
and the address in return to it, met so cordially with the ap-
the nation ; and if he even would, lie could not avoid or
probation of gentlemen from all sides, and that the address
defer the discussion of it. The deplorable situation of the
would be carried to the throne with unanimity.
East India company was well known, and universally ad-
mitted; their extreme distress, and the embarrassed state
The address was agreed to without any amendment or division.
of their affairs, not only called for the aid of government,
bat required its immediate assistance, as the only possible
means of averting and preventing the final and complete de-
struction of the company's interests, and with them, of ma-
terially injuring, if not entirely ruining, the interests of the
nation, as far as they were connected with our territorial
acquisitions in India. These circumstances being unde-
MR. Fox's EAST INDIA BILLS.
niable, arduous and difficult in the extreme as the task he
had set himself to perform that day undoubtedly was, it was
November 18.
some consolation and some satisfaction to him to know,
i
N T R . Secretary Fox moved, that an act, made in the i3th year
that he was merely discharging an act of indispensable_ duty
of the reign of his present majesty, entitled, " An act for
as a minister, that there was no choice or option before him,
establishing certain regulations for the better management of the
that he was not about to obtrude any idle, visionary, or
affairs of the East India company, as well in India as in Europe :"—
speculative projects of his own upon their notice, but
an act, made in the loth year of the reign of his present majesty,
was in the act of offering to the consideration of parlia-
entitled, " An act for continuing in the possession of the united
company of merchants of England trading to the East Indies, for
ment the best propositions for the preservation of the India
a farther time, and under certain conditions, the territorial ac-
company, and the restoration of the welfare of their con-
quisitions and revenues lately obtained in the East Indies; and
cerns, that his most deliberate attention could suggest; and
for reviving and continuing, for a farther time, so much of an
that he did it, for no other reason upon earth, than be-
act, made in the I3th year of the reign of his present majesty,
cause4le necessity that called for it was so urgent, that it
entitled, an act for establishing certain regulations for the better
pressed itself forwards, irresistibly, and as a matter that would'
management of the affairs of the East India company, as well in
not admit of farther delay. Did any man doubt the truth
India as in Europe, as hath expired in the course of the present
of this assertion, he had only to take a retrospective view of
year ; and for indemnifying the said company for any money they
the proceedings of that House during
have paid, or may pay, in or about the building of three ships of
. the last two years:
the line for the service of the public :"—the resolutions whioli,
the many abuses in the government of the territories under
upon the 29th day of April, 1782, were reported from the com-
the management of the East India Company had been so
mittee of the whole house, to whom it was referred to consider
severely felt, that parliament had found it necessary to in-
farther of the several reports which had been made from the com-
stitute enquiries, by which die source of the abuses complained
mittees of secrecy, relating to the affairs of the East India coin-
of might be found out, and proper remedies devised, and ap-
pany, and which were then agreed to by the House, together
plied to them : committees had been appointed ; their re-
with the proceedings of the House thereupon :—and the resolu•
searches had been pursued with uncommon industry, and
tions which, upon the 16th day of May, 1782, were reported from
their reports contained a body of information so complete,
the said committee of the whole House, and which, upon the 28th
day of the same month, were agreed to by the House, together
that, perhaps, the like had never been laid before parliament.
with the proceedings of the House thereupon, might be read; and
He observed, that the two committees had been of different
c
the same being read accordingly,
onstitutions and complexions; that men perfectly indifferent
to each other, and unconnected by any tie of politics or party,
Mr. Secretary Fox rose again. He said, that in the state
had set upon each; that the labours of the two committees
of responsibility in which he was going to put himself by
had consequently been conducted with impartiality, and that
0 3
1 9 8
MR. Fox's EAST INDIA BILLS.
[Nov. 18.
1 7 8 3 .]
MR. rox's EAST INDIA BILLS.
199
their prudence was perfectly astonishing, the magnitude of
system; the directors, in obedience to the sense of the House,
the information they had laid before the House, as well as
expressed in this motion, resolved that Mr. Hastings should
the very great ability and precision with which it was stated,
be recalled ; but not thinking they had a , power to decide
infinitely exceeding any expectations, however sanguine, that
finally on this subject, they laid their own proceedings before
could possibly have been entertained respecting them by any
the court of proprietors. For his part, lie was of opinion
description of persons either within doors or without. He
that the directors might, without any violation of law, have
pointed out the different mode of proceeding adopted by each
issued their orders for a recall of Mr. Hastings, without con-
committee, stating, that one of them (the secret committee)
sulting the court of proprietors; he nevertheless was aware,
had not only made ample reports of the result of their en-
that a contrary opinion was entertained by many; the event,
quiries, but come to certain resolutions as the necessary de-
however, proved, that it was necessary the constitution of
ductions from their reports, to which that House had agreed,
the society should be. amended, that inconveniencies similar
and which it had in clue form ratified and authorised. The
to those which had happened .should not occur again. The
other committee (the select) had pursued a different method,
court of proprietors resolved, that the order made by the
and perhaps not a less useful one. They had contented them-
court of directors for the recall of the governor-general should
selves with furnishing copious reports from time to time, full
be rescinded; the directors obeyed the sense of their consti-
of information, and had left it to the House to draw their own
tuents, and having made up their dispatches accordingly,
inference from the premises laid down in those reports, and
carried them to the secretary of state, (Mr. Townshend,) to
to act upon them as to their wisdom should seem meet. Both
be reviewed by him ; that gentleman, finding them so oppo-
these committees had agreed, however, in one essential par-
site to the sense of the House of Commons, would not suffer
ticular; each of them declaring, that the farther they pro-
them to be sent out to India: and the House having met a
ceeded in their enquiries, the more it became evident that all
few . days after, he stated to them the transaction. In the
the distress and difficult y of the company were ascribable
whole of this proceeding, Mr. Townshend acted with the
to the disobedience of the orders of the court of directors,
strictest propriety; an act of parliament authorised him to
and the rapacity of the company's servants in India. The
examine the dispatches of the court of directors, and to sup-
resolutions come to by the first committee, (the secret one,
press the whole, or such parts as he should conceive to be
which he had no other reason for calling the first committee,
likely to produce pernicious consequences to the public, and
than that it was now at an end,) carried in them principles to
availing. himself of the power with which the law bad vested
which he gave his most perfect acquiescence, because they
him, he stopped the dispatches, which contained an account
appeared to him to be principles of justice, of humanity, and
of the proceedings of the court of proprietors, because he
of sound policy ; but they necessarily implied this corollary —
found them so completely contradictory to the sense of the
as they in all probability ascribed the disorder in the com-
House of Commons, expressed in their vote.
pany's affairs to the true causes, certain specified facts stated
But what was in the mean time the situation of the com-
in the resolutions, so it appeared to be incumbent upon that
pany's government in India? It was critical beyond descrip-
House to inflict punishment upon the authors of the mischief
tion ; nay, it was a government of anarchy and confusion.
incurred by those facts. This unfortunately threw additional
The governor-general himself, who was the principal subject
embarrassment upon the task, the arduous task, of a reform
of the dispatches, was left in a situation in which even his
of the system of governing our territories in India, by in-
enemies must pity him: the whole continent of India had
volving personal considerations in one of the most important
been made acquainted with the resolution of that House for
questions that could engage the attention of parliament.
recalling him; and the resolution of the court of proprietors,
A learned gentleman, who had been chairman of one of
by which he was to be secured in his government, was not
those committees, (Mr. Dundas,) bad moved, that it was the
transmitted to him, but was kept back : so that in fact he
duty of the directors of the East India company to recall
was in a place of eminence without authority; and of power
Mr. Hastings from the government of Bengal. The House
without energy. -Would any man of sense wish that a go-
very readily and very properly passed the motion ; judging,
vernor-general of Bengal should remain in such a situation ?
no doubt, that it would not be expedient to condemn the
Could the affairs of the company prosper in such a state?
system lately pursued in India, without fixing some mark of
They certainly could not; and therefore it would be the duty
disapprobation on the person who had been the 'soul of the
of parliament to prevent the possibility of such another occur-
0 4
200
MR. Fox's EAST INDIA BILLS.
[Nov. 18.,
1783.]
MR. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS.
201
rence, as had reduced them to that state. But this could
and afterwards they were to be plundered, to furnish means
not be prevented, while the act for regulating the govern-
to prevent a discovery of his peculations. He was not sur-
ment of India should remain in its present condition. By
prised that even the most honest directors should not venture
this act, it was in the power of the court of proprietors to
to put an end to such infamous practices, by which a disgrace
defeat the very best measures that the directors, in conjunction
had been brought upon the British name in India : while
with the servants of the crown, should take. If the directors
man was man, he would be subject to the infirmities of his
wished to punish disobedience in one of the company's ser-
nature. The directors wished not to offend the court of
vants, and therefore to recall him, they were obliged first to
proprietors, to whom they owed their situations; and the
apply to his majesty's ministers; but their consent was not,
proprietors would never be easily persuaded to sacrifice ser-
according to the opinion of the day, sufficient; so that after
vants by whom they were enriched : thus, however, the dearest
it should have been obtained, it was still necessary to submit
interests of the country were sacrificed, and its honour tar-
the whole to the court of proprietors, who might, if they
nished, while no power in law existed at present by which
pleased, undo all that had been done by the ministers and the
the former might be preserved, and the latter retrieved. From
directors; nay, defeat the purposes of the united wisdom of
these considerations alone, the House must agree with him
the nation and parliament, expressed in their votes.
upon the necessity of the interference of the legislature, if
Besides these contradictions, another had lately occurred :
there was a wish that our possessions in India should be
the court of proprietors had voted their thanks to Mr. Has-
secured to us. But if parliament was desirous to avoid all
tings; those thanks must be communicated to government,
interference, they would find it at present impossible: the
who, acting under the spirit of the resolutions of the House
business pressed itself upon them; and not only they must
of Commons, could not perhaps suffer them to be conveyed 4
interfere, but they must do it without delay.
to India. This naturally led him to consider the character
The state of the finances of the East India company was
of the men who generally were in the direction, and held East
as deplorable as that of the internal government of their
India stock, with the nature of the connection between a go-
territorial acquisitions. Gentlemen would remember that the
vernor-general and his principals. In the direction there
company had applied last year to parliament for pecuniary
were generally two description of men; those who, being real
assistance: they called for leave to borrow soo,000t. on bonds;
proprietors, endeavoured, by promoting the trade of the com-
they had petitioned for 300,0001. in exchequer bills; and for
pany, and increasing its revenues, to make the most of their
the remission or suspension of a demand upon them on the
stock : the others were persons who had become proprietors,
part of government for 700,0001. due for customs. It might
not for commercial, but for political purposes: how, by what
be remembered also, that according to an act of parliament
means, and for what end, such persons purchased stock, he
now in being, the directors cannot accept bills drawn in In-
thought it unnecessary to state to the House. Those who
dia to the amount of more than 300,0001. unless they shall
looked to political connections, could not gratify their wishes
have first obtained the consent of the lords commissioners
more than by supporting a governor-general, in whose hands
of his majesty's treasury ; the reason of this power being
was lodged so great an opportunity of obliging his friends.
lodged in the commissioners was, that possibly by some un-
Those whose sole object was to make the most of their money,
unavoidable circumstance it might happen that the drafts on
were generally inclined to support that governor, through
the company might some time exceed in a small degree the
whose means the directors were enabled to make large divi-
above sum, and therefore they were vested with a discretion-
dends; the circumstance of large dividends might at first
ary power to grant their consent to the acceptance of the di-
view appear to make greatly in favour of a governor; but
rectors, for a larger sum than 300,0001. when it should appear
on .a serious investigation, it might he found to be highly
to them advisable so to do. The House would probably be
criminal in him ; for seeing that, after having robbed the
astonished when they should hear, that notwithstanding the
people committed to his care, and peculated for his own pri-
legal restriction to accept bills for no more than 300,0001.
vate advantage, there was no other way to prevent his prin-
without the consent of the lords of the treasury, there were
cipals from calling him to account, but bv raising their divi-
bills actually coming over for acceptance to the amount of two
dends; for this purpose, the poor unhappy natives must
million sterling. The lords of the treasury having been ap-
undergo a second fleecing for the benefit of the proprietors:
prized of this singular circumstance, had very prudently re-
so that they were to be robbed first, to enrich their governor,
fused to. give their consent that the directors should accept bills
202
MR. r
EAST' INDIA BILLS.
[Nov. 18.
I783,]
MR. FOX'S' EAST INDIA BILLS.
203
for so enormous a sum, and very properly referred them to
to be led astray with the idea, that the public had no right
parliament.
to take upon themselves to check or controul the government
Here was another circumstance that proved, as clear as
of the company's settlements : for his part, lie knew too well
day, that government was not impertinently, rashly, or un-
the great interest the public bad in the welfare of the Com-
necessarily intruding into the management of the company's
pany, ever to subscribe to any such doctrine. What was
affairs : if government was now stepping forward, it was
the whole amount of the dividend to the proprietors ? About
for no other purpose but that of saving the company from
25 6,000/. And what sum did the nation derive from the cus-
bankruptcy : for if they went on in this course they must
toms paid by the company? Above 1,300,0001. The people
sink ; and nothing but that interference could preserve its ex,.
of England therefore had a much greater stake in the business
istence. This was not a rash assertion, the state of the com-
than the proprietors of the company. If the bills for two
pany's finances would bear woeful testimony to the truth of
million, which were shortly expected, should return pro-
it : the company owed 11,200,0001., and they had stock in
tested, what would all Europe, Asia, and the world say, -but
hand to the amount of about 3,200,00o1. towards paying this
that the people of England were bankrupts, or they would
immense sum; and when deducted from it, there would still
not have suffered the bankruptcy of a company, which paid
remain a debt of 8,000,000l., a sum to the highest degree
them 1, 3 00,0001. a year? The conclusion would be natural;
alarming, when compared with the capital of the proprietors,
and therefore the credit of the nation was deeply interested in
Mr. Fox said farther, that when the- lords of the treasurys'''
the support of that of the Company. It was his intention,
consented to exercise the discretion vested in them by the
then, in the bill or bills that he should have the honour to
act he had alluded to, let the degree in which it was exercised
move for leave to bring in, to authorise the lords of the
be what' it might, he considered them as pledging the public
treasury to consent that the directors shall accept the bills for
litith for the payment of the bills, the acceptance of which
2,000,0001. that were on their way to England: the public
they permitted; and therefore it behoved them to act with in-
on this occasion must give effectual support to the company ;
finite circumspection and prudence. In the present case, the
and therefore he would have it understood that the nation by
sum was extremely large ; it was nevertheless obvious, that the
these means would become a collateral security, and be liable
credit of the company was a matter of a very delicate nature;
3
to pay the whole, if the company should not be able to take
if' they were not assisted, they must unavoidably be ruined,
up or pay all debts. Thus he hoped to save the sinking
and the ruin of a body of merchants, so extensive in their
credit of the company for the present; but it would not be
concerns, and so important in the eyes of all Europe as . the
sufficient to do this, without taking such steps as should guard
English East India company, must necessarily give the na-
it in future against the same causes, that had reduced it nearly
tional credit a very great shock indeed. On the other hand,
to a state of bankruptcy.
to give them the requisite assistance, without first examining
If he were totally unacquainted with the transactions in
their affairs, and setting them to rights, and without forming
India, which had brought on the company's calamities, he
and enforcing a new system of management for the future,
was of opinion that lie could argue, d priori, that they would
better calculated to promote their prosperity,and relieve them
happen ; because, from the constitution of the company,
from the bankrupt condition in which they at present unques-
nothing else could happen. But with the mass of evidence
tionably stood, would be only to throw away the public mo-
that the secret committee had laid on the table, it. would be
ney, and for that House to proceed to take the last shilling
madness to persevere in a system of government that had
out of the pockets of their constituents, to lend it to those
been attended with such fatal consequences. It had been
whose notorious want of ability to manage their affairs had
truly remarked by a learned gentleman last year, (Mr. Dun-
already. brought them to the brink of destruction, and afforded
das,) that if a man wished to read the finest system of ethics,
but little ground for expectation of better care for the time to
Policy, and humanity, he would find it in the letters of the
come.
court of directors to the company's servants abroad ; but if
It might naturally be supposed, therefore, that he did not
the reverse of all this should be looked for, it might be found
think for a moment of adopting the easy alternative of lending
in the manner in which the orders of the directors were ob-
them the money they wanted, and thus getting rid of the diffi-
served in India; for there, inhumanity, false policy, pecula-
culty for the present. The nature of the case required a very
tion, and brutality were to be discovered in almost every step;
different ,mode of proceeding. He would nothave gentlemen
204
MR. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS.
[YON'. Is.:
I]83.]
XX. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS.
205
orders were given on one side; they were disobeyed on the
of dismission or recall. It afterwards happened that Mr.
other; and the whole was crowned with impunity.
Hastings disavowed the assertion of his agent, and thus two
When the House thought proper to condemn the system
or three years elapsed, and the recall was never effected. As
pursued in India, it was a necessary corollary that some mark
e proof of the disobedience of the company's servants with re-
of disapprobation should be expressed relative to men as well
spect to the orders of the court of directors, Mr. Fox men-
as measures; it was not however his intention to enter into
tioned various cases that were well known.
a detail of charges against any man ; accusation was by no
The affair of the rajah, prince, or zemindar of Benares af-
means his object ; but it was not possible to illustrate his ob-
forded an instance of breach of public faith, which would for
servations without occasionally mentioning names. With
ever be a blot upon the character of the British nation. The
respect to disobedience of orders, there were two very sin-
territories of this prince had been declared to be vested in him,
gular instances, which he could not pees over unnoticed.
on condition of paying to the vizier a certain fixed and stipu-
The supreme council of Bengal had, by a vote on which the
lated tribute. The vizier thought proper afterwards to enter
governor-general had been left in a minority, resolved to send
into an agreement with the company's servants, by virtue of
two gentlemen, Mr. Fowke and Mr. Bristow, to reside, the
which the vassalage of the rajah of Benares was ceded to the
one at the court of the rajah of Oude, the other at that of
company; so that he thereby became tributary to it, but pre-
the rajah of Benares. The governor general, however, re-
cisely on the same terms that he held his territories of the
fused to send these two gentlemen to the places to which they
vizier; the tribute, and the conditions on which it was to be
had been destined; the directors transmitted to him the most
paid, were precisely the same; so that the company stood on
positive orders to send them. Mr. Hastings thought proper
no better grounds than the vizier, and the rajah did not stand
to disobey them ; and went so far as to say, that he could
on worse. Mr. Hastings, on that occcasion, wrote to the
not en:ploy them in negotiations, because he had no confi-
English resident at Benares, and authorised him to assure the
dence in them. Mr. Scott, agent in England for Mr. Hast-
rajah that no farther tribute should be exacted, nor should it
ings, said, on his examination before the committee of that
on any future change of government be enlarged. The gov-
House, that to force these two gentlemen on Mr. Hastings,
ernor-general's letter on this occasion was a perfect model of
was much the same as if opposition in parliament should
elegance; it breathed humanity, justice,, and honour in every
force a minister of the crown to send abroad an ambassador,
line; but, alas ! the humanity, justice and honour of Mr.
in whom he could not repose confidence : so that, according
Hastings towards Cheyt Sing, the name of this unfortunate
to this doctrine, the court of directors, who were in fact Mr.
prince, were to be found only in his letter; his conduct dis-
Hastings' masters, were to be considered in the light of an
claimed them : the tribute was regularly paid; and yet, con-
opposition, and resisted accordingly. What, he said, must
trary to the very tenour of his letter, Mr. Hastings called upon.
be the state of that government, when the servants were bold
Cheyt Sing during the war for five lacks of rupees : they were
enough to consider the power by which they were invested
paid; a second requisition for a similar sum was made, and
with authority, as an opposition inimical to them ? But the
complied with; as was also a third : the governor-general made
subsequent conduct of Mr. Hastings towards one of those
a fourth demand of five lacks; but the prince was not able this
gentlemen, in whom he could place no confidence, was cu-
time to comply with it : and the governor hearing that the
rious indeed ; for he was pleased to give a contract to Mr.
money could not be procured by fair means, went in person
Fowke for furnishing oats, with a commission of 15 per cent.
into the territories of Benares, seized them for the company's
which he observed in one of his letters was a great sum, and
use; and the unfortunate prince, Cheyt Sing, driven from hie
might operate as a temptation on him to protract the nego-
dominions, was at this moment a wanderer and a vagabond
tiation of peace ; but, added he, " the entire confidence I have
in the world. This unfortunate rajah referred to the governor-
in the integrity and honour of Mr. Fowke, are a full and per,
general's letter, to spew that the demands that had been made
fect security on that head."
upon him were contrary to the assurance contained in that
To evince the difficulty of recalling their servants, he stated,
letter; but Mr. Hastings, disclaiming his letter, referred to the
that in 1 77 6 it was the resolution of the company to recall
instrument, by which he promised to pay the tribute: in that
-Mr. Hastings; but his agent standing up, and in his name
there was no mention of an assurance that the tribute should
announcing his resignation, it was accepted as a milder mode
never be higher ; to this it was replied, that a clause had been
at first inserted in the instrument to annul all former agree-
206
MR. rOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS.
[Nov. 18.
MR. rox's EAST INDIA BILLS.
207
ments, and consequently the original agreement by which the
by no personal enmities, nor did he aim at any restrospective
rajah of Benares bound himself to pay tribute to the vizier,
views. His eloquence in this part of his speech was truly
and which agreement had been made over to the company;
great and masterly.
to this clause the rajah objected ; and it was struck out; conse-
Having stated these various grievances and abuses in the
quently he had a right to conclude, that the original treaty
government of India, his next object was to point out the re-
with the vizier, by which the quantum of the tribute was as-
medies that he intended to apply to them. lie declared, no-
certained, and which he assigned over to the company, re-
thing but strong measures could possibly be expected to effect
mained still in fill! force ; and he was the more founded in this
a thorough reform. Strong, however, as the system was
opinion, as the governor-general's letter was as explicit on this
which he should have the honour to propose ; abundantly too
subject as Cheyt Sing could have wished ; but Mr. Hastings,
harsh as he was aware it would be thought by some, it was a
still sheltering himself behind the letter of the instrument,
palliative, an emollient, a half measure compared to the idea
said, with Shylock, " I do not see it in the bond." Here was
of leaving things in their present condition. He hoped, there-
a most flagrant breach of national faith; for he (Mr. Fox) held
fore, the House would, on this occasion, take the advice given
the faith of the company to have been as strongly pledged to
by a right honourable gentleman on a former day; that they
Cheyt Sing, by the governor's letter, as it was possible to pledge
would look their real situation with regard to India in the
it. The affair of the begums of Oude was another circum-
face; that they would examine it thoroughly, view its defor-
stance in which the honour of the nation had been wounded.
mity, and proceed with firmness to adopt and enforce that ap-
These two princesses were the mother and the grandmother
plication, and that remedy, which the inveteracy of the case
of the vizier of Oude, and the lands assigned to them for their
required.
support had been guaranteed to them by the company; and
With regard to the existence of great defects in the present
yet, notwithstanding this guarantee, the vizier was permitted
system of governing India, and the dangerous and deplorable
by Mr. Hastings to dispossess the princesses, and strip them
extent of the mischiefs and abuses arising from those defects,
of their dower.
the House, Mr. Fox observed, were well acquainted. The
It appeared from all the letters and orders of the court of -
great difficulty lay in chusing the mode of remedying the de-
directors, that the uniform tenour of their instructions to their
fects that had been so fully ascertained. On former occasions,
servants abroad was to conduct their affairs with a view solely
doubts had been started on this question ; To whom belong
to commercial purposes, and not with any view to aggrandise-
the territorial acquisitions in India ? Many, and grave persons,
ment; whereas it was evident that the latter had been the chief
were of opinion, that they belonged to the crown; and they
object of the company's servants. In proof of this, he mention-
argued, that it was absurd that a body of merchants should be
ed the Rohilla war, as another instance of the lengths that the
supposed capable of managing and governing great territories,
company's servants may carry injustice ; the rajah of that
and entering into all the mazes and refinements of modem
country was persecuted with fire and sword, and his territories
politics. He was aware also, that very weighty persons had,
laid waste, for no other reason, that he could discover, but that
011 the other hand, maintained, that the territories belonged of
his country had always been, what it always would be, a per-
right to the company; and they retorted very justly, saying
fect garden. The Mahratta war was another source of cala-
that it was equally absurd to suppose that mere statesmen were
mity to the company, and another instance of the disregard
qualified to enter into, and conduct the complicated branches
which was paid to the spirit of the system laid down by the
of a remote and difficult trade. To this latter opinion, he
directors, of pursuing commerce, and not acquisition. He
was himself inclined to lean. His idea, therefore, with re-
would not say that it was begun by Mr. Hastings ; it certainly
gard to India, was to form a mixed system of government,
took its rise from the presidency of Bombay; but it was adopt-
adapted, as well as the nature of the case would admit, to the
ed by him; and he would not say that the terms of the peace
mixed complexion of our interests in India. He was willing,
with that people were such, as the merit of having made it
in the first instance, to leave the question of right to the terri-
ought to outweigh the demerits of having engaged in the war;
torial possessions, just as it now stood, that was to say, unde-
certain it was, that this new treaty was infinitely less advanta-
cided. It was generally thought, that if government should
geous to us than ,that of Poorunder, which had been broken.
even take the territorial possessions into their hands, they
He added a case, if possible, still more inhuman; and declared,
Would be under the necessity of keeping up a company to carry
that in the statement of these particulars, he lad been actuated
208
MR. PDX'S EAST INDIA BILLS.
[Nov. 18.
/783.]
MR. FOX'S EAST INDIA RILLS.
209
on a trade, by which alone the revenues of India could be con-
of Bengal, deriving under an act of parliament, seemed to dis-
verted to the benefit of Great Britain.
avow any power in the court of proprietors, directors, or the
His Plan was to establish a board, to consist of seven per-
king himself to remove him. He would have the board to be
sons, who should be invested with full power to appoint and
established for three or five years ; orfor such a length of time
displace officers in India, and under whose control the whole
as should be thought sufficient to try the experiment, how far
government of that country should be placed ; the other class
this new establishment might be useful. When that should
to consist of eight persons, to be called assistants, who should
be known, if experience should have proved its utility, then he
have charge of the sales, outfits, &c. of the company, and in
proposed that in future the king should have the nomination
general of all commercial concerns, but still be subject to the
of the seven first. If any of the eight assistant counsellors
eight
control of the first seven. The board he would have held in
should die, the vacancies should be
up by the court of
England, under the very eye of parliament ; their proceedings,
Proprietors. A learned gentleman (Mr. Dundas) in tile bill
should be entered in books for the inspection of both Houses.
he brought into parliament last year, proposed to give the
Their servants abroad should be obliged to make minutes of
most extraordinary powers to the governor-general of Bengal ;
all their proceedings, and enter them into books to be trans-
he at the same time named the person who was to fill that
mitted to Europe; and if ever they should find themselves un-
office. The person was Earl Cornwallis, a nobleman whom
der the necessity of disobeying an order from the board, (and
he (Mr. Fox) named now, only for the purpose of paying ho-
he was ready to admit, that cases might occur, when not only
mage to his great character; the name of such a man might
b •
it would not be blameable to disobey orders, but when dis-
make parliament consent to the vesting of such powers in a
obedience would be even meritorious,) a minute should be en-
governor-general : ,but certain he was, that nothing but the
tered, stating the reason of such disobedience : and on the same
great character of that noble lord could ever induce the leais-
principle, lie meant to oblige the council at home to make
lature to commit such powers to an individual, at the distance
minutes of their reasons, as often as their orders should not
of half the globe. In this plan the greatest powers might be
be complied with, and they should not immediately recall the
intrusted with the board, because the members of it would be
servant who had disobeyed their instructions. This, he was
at home, and under the eye of that House, before whom their
aware, was new, when applied to the common course of busi-
proceedings must be laid. The learned gentleman had in-
ness; but the long practice of it by the India company had
trenched his bill behind the character of Lord Cornwallis, but
proved its utility.
he (Mr. Fox) would not mention a single name that he intend-
He meant to lodge a discretional power with the council,
ed to insert in his bill : not because he was afraid they should
Which their responsibility would require. If it appeared to
not be found most respectable; but because he wished the bill
them, that a servant of the company had acted in disobedience
might rest for support on its own merits, and not on the cha-
of orders from home, from the immediate exigency of affairs,
racters of individuals.
or that he had an obvious good intention in so doing, or that
There were other points on which he had formed an inten-
it was for other reasons inexpedient to recall him, they should
tion to touch, and for which lie must bring in a second bill, in
be obliged to assign in a minute, as short as they pleased, why
aid and reinforcement of the first. An absurd opinion seemed
they did not recall him, and thus avow what they would justify
to prevail in Indostan, that all the lands belong absolutely to
as the expedient grounds of their conduct. This would en-
the emperor, and that therefore they may be disposed of at
sure security to the commissioners, and oblige them to act on
Pl easure. Upon this principle it had been customary to -turn
motives of necessary precaution. The company's servants
the ancient zemindars, land-owners, or sentry of the country
abroad were already in the habit of entering minutes, and it
cut of their possessions, if others were found who would pay
was a custom of infinite utility; for if no such custom had ex-
more for them. This was a destructive custom, built on an
isted, India would have been unavoidably lost to us ; for we
absurd and erroneous opinion ; it destroyed agriculture and
never should have been able, without these minutes, to trace
im provements, and took away that stimulus to the acquisition
the melancholy effects up to their true causes.
of property, the consciousness that it would be permanent :
For the present, he intended that parliament should name
il ia plan would be, to enact, that upon the payment of certain
all the persons who should sit at this board; but then it should
fixed rents or tributes, the landholders should enjoy the un-
be only pro hdc vice : be felt already the inconvenience of par-
disturbed possession of their lands, which no power should
liamentary appointments; for at present the governor-general
l ake from them : and in this he trusted he should be. most
VOL. u.
210
MR. FOx's EAST INDIA BILLS.
[Nov. 8.
1783.]
MR. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS.
/I 1
powerfully seconded by the humanity and justice of parlia-
chairman of the East India company, who sold the contract for
ment.
a considerable premium the very same day, and in consequence,
He stated also, as a very important object of his bill, and
the trade for opium was absolutely lost to the company. It
which stood much in need of correction, the practice of the
had been often suggested, that it would be advisable to give
company's servants receiving presents from the Indian princes,
to the Gentoos the laws of England; but such an attempt
and others, the dependants on the company. This was, he
would be ridiculous and chimerical ; the customs and religion
said, the grand original, the prinzum mobile of all the rapacity,
of India clashed too much with them: but though the laws
disobedience, injustice, and cruelty, that had disgraced the
could not be established among them, yet their spirit and ef-
British government in India. In vain had the court of direc-
ficacy might; and this great principle might be carried into
tors sent over injunction after injunction, to forbid the com,
effect, that no man should be deprived of his lands, while he
pany's servants from taking any present, on any pretence, from
fulfilled the conditions under which he held them. It might
the Indian princes and zemindars. In vain had an express act
be proper to have a retrospect here, and to restore all those who
of parliament passed to forbid the practice. The orders of
had been dismissed since any given period ; for instance, since
the court of directors, the acts of the British legislature, were
1772, and to bind them to the payment of such rents or tri-
held in equal, and the most supreme contempt at Bengal. A
butes as they paid at that period. He had turned his thoughts
stronger proof of this could not be adduced than the conduct
also to the devising of some means, whereby criminals in
ofMr. Hastings., who had accepted various presents, and among
India might be brought to justice fiere, a circumstance of
others a present of one hundred thousand pounds from a rajah,
the greatest importance. On this head, he had heard dif-
who, at the very time, stood deeply indebted to the company, and
ferent opinions : some thought that the laws already in being
who pleaded the most abject distress, in excuse for not paying
were perfectly adequate to that end; while others insisted,
the company what he owed them, This hundred thousand
that they were wholly insufficient ; and therefore that there
pounds, it was true, Mr. Hastings had afterwards brought to the
was no other mode of prosecuting such criminals, but by bills
account of thecompany, but it was a considerable time first, and
of pains and penalties. All. those who had been witnesses
in the interim he had lent it to them upon bond, and charged a:.
to the : proceedings of last year, would agree with him, that
high interest; nay, such was the opinion of Mr. Hastings himself
this was a wretched inefficient mode to resort to. He had
upon the transaction, that he had written home word to the
thought of establishing a permanent tribunal for trying such
court of directors, " that lie did not know whether he had any
criminals ; but he felt very strong objections to such an in-
particular motive that had influenced him to accept this pre-
stitution : gentlemen would conceive, that it would be dif-
sent, but if he had any at the time, it was really out of his
ficult for such judges to resist the attacks of friends and rela-
mind." Mr. Hastings's agent, Mr. Scott, had also told the
tions; and it would therefore be improper, if solicitations
committee, when examined by them, that it was better worth
should prevail, to send a criminal to be tried before that
the while of the rajah of Oude to make Mr. Hastings a pre-
court. The matter was full of difficulties ; and he was ready
sent .of one hundred thousand pounds, than to pay any part of
to own, that he was not prepared as yet to bring in any bill
his just debts to the company. Mr. Fox laid great stress upon
on that subject; not only because he had not the assistance
the whole of this narration, and urged it as a glaring proof of
of the two great law officers of the crown, who were not at
his former opinion, that the servants of the East India conk-
that moment members of the House, but, in fact, because
pany in India were thought by the natives to possess more
he had not yet been able to arrange a plan that could please
power than their masters, and that it was evident they held
himself. He owned he had an idea in his mind on the
the orders of the court of directors, and even the acts of the
subject, but it was not sufficiently matured for the House to
British parliament, in sovereign contempt.
he made acquainted with it.
Another point to which he designed to direct the correc-
I-le' begged that, in the discussion. of the bills he should.
tion his bill was intended to administer, was, to the abolition
grove for leave to bring in, gentlemen would not involve two
of all monopolies. These he stated to be extremely unfair
things that were perfectly distinct; the merits or demerits of
in the first instance, extremely pernicious, and as tending
the hills, and the merits or demerits of Mr. Hastings. This •
to consume the vitals of commerce, rather than to feed,
1vas not a day of trial for that gentleman : the bills had no
to cherish, or to lend it rigour. He mentioned the ifl0
';?trospect ; not but he was ready to own, that upon the rea-
nopoly for opium, that had been given to the son of a late
" l ess he should find in the House to receive his bills; it de'
II
P 2
212
MR. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS.
[Nov. I 8,
1783.] MR. Fox's EAST INDIA BILLS. - 213
pended whether there should be a retrospect or not. At
was not a time for indolence and regard to safety in a minister.
present, there was no connection between the bills and Mr.
The situation of the country called for vigorous exertion, for
Hastings: he might be the most honest, upright, humane,
new measures, and for some risk; he knew, that a minister
and just governor that ever existed; and yet the bills pro-
who had no consideration but his own safety, might be quiet
posed might be highly proper. On the other hand, he might
and safe; the consequence must be, tile country would be
be the most corrupt peculator, and the most cruel and unjust
ruined. How much better was it to venture what the exi-
governor that ever cursed the plains of Indostaii; and yet the
(racy of affairs required; the minister it was true might be
remedy proposed in these bills might be found inadequate.
n
•
ruined, but his country would be saved. The one considera-
All he asked was, that they might be considered by them-
tion ought to have no weight compared to the other. Nor
selves, without any reference to any man. If influence on this
had indolent men any business in office at such a crisis as the
occasion should manifest itself, the consequences might be
present. This was not a season for a secretary of state to be
alarming : no future governor would ever go to India, without
idle. The minister who loved his ease, or rather who was
looking to influence in that House; and if the day should
not determined to exert himself, had no business with green
come, when the whole force of patronage in India should be.
boxes and green bags. His office was for active employ,
employed for the purpose of creating influence in that House,
and if lie preferred indolence to application, he ought to
what would become of India? Peculations there would be
retire to private life, where he might enjoy his leisure without.
protected here; and the plunderers would be protected by
injury to the public. [A smile from opposition.] Mr. Fox took
the sharers in the plunder. He trusted that gentlemen in
notice of the smile, and said, the subject of a measure adopted
general would meet the question fairly, and not make that a
by him last session, had then been so repeatedly and so fully
personal consideration, which had nothing personal in it.
discussed, that tile gentlemen on the other side must excuse
The influence of the crown, they had been used to say, was
him, if he declined saying any thing more upon the subject ;
too great. He thanked God it had been considerably di-
thus much he would only then say, that it had been thought
minished; but the influence of the crown, in its most enor-
a matter worth trying, if a junction with those, from whom
mous and alarming state, was nothing, compared to the
he had long differed, might not be made with safety, after
boundless patronage of the East India government, if tile
the points upon which they had differed most widely were at
latter was to be used in influence of that House. The coun-
an end, and whether they might not act together on new
try was lost indeed, lost beyond all hope or possibility of
points with honour for the good of the country. That ex-
recovery, if the boundless patronage of the East was to be
periment had been tried, and he was happy to say, that the
employed, to prevent government from making a reform,
experience of the summer had confirmed him in his expec-
called for in the loudest manner, and urged onwards by the
tations. The noble lord and he not having had any one
most immediate and most pressing necessity. He spoke not
material difference, nor indeed any variety of opinion, far-
this from a fear of tile influence to which he had alluded; he
ther than that sort of occasional difference which men of
trusted no attempt would be made to exert it in the present
honour, determined to act freely, to give their opinion to each
instance; because if a minister was afraid to come down to
other without reserve, and from candid argument to deduce
the House, and propose a measure, grounded on the most
conviction, might warrantably and fairly be supposed to en-
urgent necessity, there would at once be an end. of all go-
tertain. On the present occasion, lie lamented most sincerely
vernment.
the want of the great abilities of the noble lord to support
At the same time that he said this, he was aware the mea-
11101 in the arduous task of tile day; and he more particularly
sure lie had proposed was a strong one. He knew, that the
lamented, that his loss should be owing to personal illness
task he had that clay set himself was extremely arduous and
and infirmity. He was, however, happy to be able to assure
difficult, he knew that it had considerable risk in it ; but
that House, that he and the noble lord had consulted to-
when he took upon himself an office of responsibility, he had
getlaer upon the subject; that they perfectly coincided in
made up his mind to the situation and the danger of it.
sentiment and opinion ,upon it ; and he trusted, the bill
had left all thoughts of ease, indolence, and safety behind Ilia)•
Would be some time in passing, that he should still have the
He remembered an honourable friend near him (Mr. Burke)
b enefit of' the noble lord's powerful support. With regard
had once said, half in jest, half in earnest, " that idleness was
to the smile the gentlemen on the other side -had chosen to
the best gift that God had bestowed upon man." But this
assume at his observations upon indolence, he could not be
k3
X
214
MR. iO 'S EAST INDIA plus.
1783.]
MR. tux's EAST INDIA BILLS.
215
supposed to allude to the noble lord's administration, because
'Jule difficulty in determining that point ; for if the object before
they roust know many new projects were carried into prac.
them was interesting, it certainly was the duty of every one present
tice during that administration, projects, which, in common
to prolong the time, before its investigation, to- the latest period.
with those gentlemen, he had thought detrimental to the in_
He stated the commission as the setting up within the realm a
terests of the country, and which they had together laboured
species of executive government, independent of the check or
to prevent.
controul of the crown. This he deemed an innovation on the con-
stitution, and therefore a matter that ought to be most seriously
Mr. Fox now came to a conclusion ; and again begged
examined. He charged the system also with injustice, inasmuch
leave to impress the idea on the minds of the House, that he
as in the right honourable secretary's opening it the other day,
had not intruded himself in this business officiously; that it was
he had rested the necessity of it entirely on the misconduct 'of
not a mean and interested expedient for the purpose of for-
the governor-general in India ; whereas by the operation of the
tifying a party, or to add to the influence of the crown. As
system, the faults of the servants were to be punished on the
he had said, it was a strong measure, because it was a great
masters. He said several things respecting the very dangerous
resolution; but. considering it as he and his colleagues did,
tendency of the bill, and exposed the boldness of the men who
necessary to the salvation of the company, and, with the
could venture to propose a measure that threatened such ruinous
consequences to British liberty. But his chief force was directed
company, of the state, he had applied to it with the greatest
against the influence which Ministers were likely to derive from
earnestness, and had brought it forward without the loss of a
the event of such a terrible system. He said it would not only
moment. He then moved, " That leave be given to bring in
give them an unbounded power over the interests and possessions
a bill, for vesting the affairs of the East India company in
of the East, but render their posts so formidable as to- endanger
the hands of certain commissioners, for the benefit of the pro-
the rights of every free Englishman. — Mr. Scott, who spoke,
prietors and the public." His second motion would be,
.on this occasion, for the first time, observed, that the bill seemed
That leave be given to bring in a bill for the better govern-
to him rather of a dangerous nature, but he would not declare
ment of the territorial possessions and dependencies in
against it. He would rather wait till more light had been thrown
India."
upon the subject.
After a short debate, leave was given to bring in the bills, and
Mr. Secretary Fox, Mr. North, Lord John Cavendish, and Mr.
Mr. Secretary Fox followed Mr. Scott. He paid some
Erskine, were ordered to prepare, and bring in the same.
handsome compliments to him, and expressed a high opinion
of his abilities, and the goodness of his intentions. Though
November 20.
he had not had the pleasure of hearing him speak before in
that House, yet he was not a stranger to his eloquence, and
This clay Mr. Secretary Fox presented to the House a bill " for
vesting the affairs of the East India company
did not doubt of hearing it employed at all times on the side
in the hands of
certain commissioners for the benefit of the proprietors and the
of equity. He could not, however, forbear taking notice of
public." It was read the first time, and ordered to be printed.
one thing that bad fallen from the honourable gentleman's
Mr. Fox next moved, that it be read a second time on this clay
mouth. He had observed, that before we could decide, it
se'nnight. This occasioned a debate ; Mr. W. Grenville opposed
was necessary to deliberate; but how had he acted in the
the motion, and as the business was of such importance, he gave
present instant? Not, surely, consistently with the maxim he
it as his opinion, that the Christmas recess should intervene before
had laid down; for, without any opportunity of deliberating,
the second reading. He said, the right honourable secretary
he had ventured to give his decision, and he thought with a
meant to take the House, not only by force, but by violence ; and
good deal of positiveness.
therefore, it became the business of every member, who regarded
the liberties of his country, to stand forward on this occasion. The
The right honourable secretary observed, that he could
bill, he said, made an attack upon the most solemn charters affirmed
foresee what was to conic from an honourable gentleman on
and confirmed by the sacred faith of parliament; it broke through
the opposite side of the House (Mr. Jenkinson) long before
all those ties which should bind man to man, and was fraught with
it came to his turn to speak. He well knew that the crown
the most pointed mischief against national honour and the integrity
influence, which was a favourite topic with the honourable
of English legislation. He wished the second reading to be
gentleman who first opposed the motion, would be taken up
postponed till after the call of the House.— Mr. Jenkinson ima-
by him. He could not blame him for taking up his honour-
gined that the point which wanted most to be determined was)
able friend's cause, although he thought that it would not
whether the bill ought to be read a second time next Thursday,
or put off till the House had been called over. He 'could see but
have been done in the manner he did. To see each-gentle-
r 4
216 •
MR. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS.
[Nov. 20.
17 8 3 . ]
MR. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS.
2 1 7
man acting by instructions, and speaking what his friend had
some others now high in station. As the honourable gentle-
broached, was rather to view them in an inferior light. He
man, and his relation in the other house, were both able to
really thought that they were both able enough, at least they
speak f'r themselves, it would be quite as proper if they ca-
ought to be able enough, to think ,and speak for themselves.
tered less for each other, and delivered in their different situ-
But when he heard the doctrine of separating the crown
ations what better belonged to those situations respectively.
and its ministers, and talking of them as divided interests,
Had that been the case, we should not have heard in the other
broached by the right honourable gentleman, who opened
house, on the first day of the session, a laboured harangue
the debate, he looked immediately at the last speaker but
about the definitive treaty not being completed with Holland,
one, convinced that he would be the leading speaker of the
nor that day in the house in which he was then speaking, an
day, for that such a doctrine could originate in no other
extract from a protest in the House of Lords. He said, the
quarter. In some respects, indeed, the ministers and the
House of Commons was not to be guided by the decisions of
crown were distinct objects : where the measures of govern-
any court whatever, in matters which properly belonged to
ment called for censure or punishment, there the ministers
itself; and however weighty in the business before die House
alone were responsible; but with regard to most other points
the honourable gentleman might suppose those protests, he
of view, nothing could be so egregious as the endeavour to
could assure him that they appeared not of such force to him.
draw a distinction. In the present case, in order to guard as
Those noble lords were, perhaps, right in giving in their pro-
much as possible against the danger of increasing the influence
test; but had the gentlemen considered whether their motives
of the crown, the ministers were loaded with. a responsibility
were not different from any motives that might be supposed to
that balanced their power, and insured to the people that no
influence the opposers of the bill under consideration ? Gen-
ill use would be made of it : besides, who were appointed to
tlemen would recollect, that on the first day of the session he
check and control it but that House? With regard to that
was called upon by a right honourable gentleman to bring
crown power, or rather ministerial power, for so they had
forward no palliative, no half measure. How inconsistent,
absurdly called it, he saw no difficulty in answering all the ob-
then, was it now to arraign that for being too bold, which it
jections that had been started to his bill on that account ; for
was declared then could not be too vigorous ! But the fact
it never was intended that the crown influence should be in,
was this : the right honourable gentleman was loud in calling
creased by the plan proposed, at least but in a small degree. The
for it — why? Because he thought no system was ready. This
appointment of the commissioners was in the hands of parlia-
explained his language then, and the very opposite language he
ment; and he hoped parliament would at all times keep a
opposed to the system when it was brought forward. The
watchful eye to the proceedings of administration. When
state of affairs in India at. that moment, he said, was such,
his principles led him to oppose ministry, he always viewed
that even a palliative remedy was desirable ; but it was not
the measures of administration with jealous attention ;
his intention to redress the grievances of India by palliatives
it was his wish, and it should always be his wish, to have
only; he wished to see something done that might penetrate
his actions scrutinized by parliament; it was their undoubted
to the root of the disease, and he made no doubt but gentle-
right to do so, and he hoped it was a right they never would
men would find the remedy that had been proposed equal to
lose sight of: He could not, he said, dismiss the topic,
the end it had in view. The several clauses had been read :
without combating a little the witty, but at the same time in-
and when they were understood, he flattered himself the lan-
vidious, distinction that had been made between ministerial
guage of the House would be different. As to the proposition
power and crown power; for his part, he could discover no
for deferring the consideration of' the bill till the House had
ground for the distinction ; he had always considered, that
been called over, he could see no good end to be gained by
whatever conferred power on the ministry, conferred at the
that. Submitted it must be to the consideration of the
same time an equal share of power on the crown, and vice
other House; 'slid as they did not know what time their
versti. There were, perhaps, some little circumstances in
Lordships might chuse to detain it, as they would certainly
which their interests might not altogether clash ; but these
detains it as long as was consistent with the dignity of the
were few indeed, and of no moment. The right honourable
House they sat in; as that was the case, lie thought that no
secretary now attacked the references which Mr. Grenville had
time ought to be lost. Gentlemen who wished to be prepared,
made to the protests of some noble lords, amongst which was
had time enough to do so before Thursday ; and he could
the respectable one of the late Marquis of Rockingham, and
look upon the desire of a long delay as nothing but a subter-
z 4
218
MR. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS.
tNOV. 26.
783.]
1:1R. FOx's EAST INDIA BILI. g.
219
fug to defeat the purposes of the bill. It was, indeed, in
when that bill should become the subject of debate, he would.
that light he viewed the conduct of the honourable gentleman
endeavour to defend it against tile different objections that
who moved- the House for a call of the members. He wished
Mould be urged against it. With respect to the influence
to have the House called, because he knew they would not
Jiat it would give to the crown, it would be the duty of its
come. Had he proposed the day which the honourable gen-
opposers to shew that it was unnecessarily proposed, and that
tleman proposed, he was sure he would have mentioned some
influence Nvas, the object, and not an adventitious circumstance
posterior one. The very business before them, he said, had
in the bill. This sort of opposition was fair and parliamentary,
been hinted at, and not obscurely, sometime towards the con-
and he hoped it would be followed. He hoped,. that no gen-
clusion of last session ; and besides, it was both mentioned in
tleman would object to the bill singly, or consider it in a sin.
his majesty's speech which closed that session, and that with
(rle point of' view ; but that, while it was stated that the bill
which he opened the present session ; so that there was no just
tended to increase the influence of the crown, the necessity of
ground for pleading want of information of the affairs before
adopting some measure respecting the future government of
them. He concluded with saying, that he did not despair of
India would be taken into consideration, and then the ques-
seeing a happy issue of that political system which had been
ion with respect to the influence of the crown would stand
supposed to have its rise in despotism, and its foundation in
on its true ground, and the only point in doubt would be,
corruption.
whether the that was to be read a second time the next day,
increased the influence of the crown in a manner that was un-
The question was carried without any division.
necessary. He was glad, however, to hear the honourable
baronet say that he felt the necessity of making some regula-
tions, and that a company of merchants were not fit to govern
November 26.
a vast tract of territorial possessions. As to the bill imme-
diately before the House, its principle was clearly unobjec-
Mr. Secretary Fox brought in his second bill relative to India.
tionable on the score of influence; for so far from giving any
It was entitled, " A Bill for the better Government of the Territo-
influence, this bill was particularly to guard against it; he
rial Possessions and Dependencies in India." Sir Edward Astley
presumed, therefore, - . that there would be no opposition to the
said he did not mean to oppose , the bill then ; but he still thought
sending of the bill to a committee, for whatever objection
that gentlemen ought to proceed with caution in a measure, by
could arise, it must, in his opinion, be to the provisions, and
which so much influence would. be thrown into the hands of the
not to the bill itself; he was not so vain As to suppose that he
A bill of infinitely less moment, which gave infinitely less
crown.
could frame a bill that embraced so many objects, and con-
influence, had been opposed by some of the first and best men in
tained so great a number of regulations, which should not be
this country, because it tended to encrease, though in a small de.-
awe the influence of the crown and its ministers ; if therefore a
liable in many places to objections ; it would be for the wisdom
Measure should be adopted that would put ministers into posses-
of the committee to make such alterations in the clauses as
sion of an extent of patronage, immense in every sense of the word,
they should judge necessary.
and that might in its consequences threaten the liberties and con-
Mr. William Pitt said, that it was not
stitution of this country, gentlemen might then find it necessary to
possible for him to form a
come again to vote, " that the influence of the Crown has in-
just judgment of a bill of such a length, from the cursory manner
in
creased, is increasing, and ought to be diminished." He was
which it had been read ; but as far as he could judge, lie was
free
ready to allow, that from the present state of the company's af-
to say that the principle of it did not strike him, as being at all
a-kin to that of the other bill which was brought in last week ; and
fairs, some regulations were necessary. He was ready also to al-
at present he saw no objection to its going to a committee. How-
low, that a company of merchants were not qualified to govern
ever it
great territorial possessions ; but still he had a right to be on his
could not be expected, that he should pledge himself to
guard,est the measures proposed to' remedy the evil complained'
support it, or any part of it, until he should have read and well
7
considered the whole of the bill. — Mr. Arden observed, that the
of should prove ruinous to the liberty of this country.
bill mentioned in various places the commissioners to whom the
company's affairs should be intrusted ; this sheaved that it de-
Mr. Secretary Fox observed, that the honourable baronet's
pended upon another bill, and would therefore be nugatory and
remarks were pointed, not against the bill then immediately
absurd if that bill should not pass ; and it was not a matter so cer-
under the consideration of the House, but against the other
tain as the right honourable secretary seemed to suppose, that the
which he had the honour to present a few days ago ; and
bill would pass.
1783.]
MR. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS.
221
220
/UR. Fox's EAST INDIA BILLS.
[Nov. 27.
lug in the bill, it would be necessary that every paper should be
Mr. Secretary Fox in answer to this observation said, that
read that could prove either the truth or falsehood of the argu-
let the fate of the other bill be what it might, this bill would
ment drawn from the supposition of such bankruptcy. The Speaker
not, in his opinion be nugatory and absurd; the necessity
said, that in point of order, all papers delivered in at the bar by
of regulations was admitted on all hands; and let who might
witnesses, were considered as evidence already given to the House,
be entrusted with the management of the company's affilirs,
and therefore it was not necessary that they should be read, except
these regulations wou:d be necessary ; he therefore wished the
pro, foram, and every member might argue from them as if they
had been read. He called upon the old members of the House to
bill might be gone through as speedily as possible; nay, that
Bet him right, if he was wrong in his opinion. Mr. Kenyon could
it might be passed even before the other bill; and therefore
not conceive how such an order could be reconciled with reason
care might be taken in the committee to insert a clause,
or common sense. In the courts of law, if a paper was given in
which should declare, that let the government .of the com-
evidence, and its authenticity was ascertained, it was always read ;
pany be in whom it might, whether directors or commis-
for if it was not, it could be of no service or disservice in the cause,
sioners, the powers given by this bill should rest in them.
as the courtand jury, though, in fact, in possession of the paper,must
With such a clause as this, the bill would not be dependent
in reality, as long it remained unread, be totally unacquainted with
upon any other ; and would be complete, though the other
its contents. The Speaker replied, that when evidence was offered
should be lost. (Mr. Pitt nodded approbation.) He owned
by a counsel at the bar of the House, he might, if he pleased,
cause it to be read : but if he did not call for that, it was not the
for his part he wished it to proceed with as much dispatch as
custom of the House to read what the counsel did not think neces-
possible; but as he was not vain enough to think, that any
sary to have read. In some cases, the reading of papers delivered
bill he could fabricate would be perfect, or that a bill con-
at the bar was impracticable ; in many instances they were too vo-
taining so large a number of various regulations, would not
luminous ; but any member might in debate advert to them, and
call for much discussion, and even some alteration, he cer-
cause the whole, or any part, to be read as often as he should think
tainly would give due time for gentlemen to consider the
fit. The point of order being thus settled,
subject.
Mr. Secretary Fox rose to state his reasons for sending the
bill to a committee. The honourable baronet has said, that
The bill was ordered to be printed, and read a second time on.
he will not keep me from my defence ; and he calls my speak-
Tuesday.
ing to the question of commitment a speech in my defence. I
allow him his assertion. I shall always consider myself as
speaking in my defence, when I rise up to speak to a propo-
November 27.
sition so great and so important as that which I have now
presumed to offer to the wisdom of the House. Whenever I
Mr. Secretary Fox moved the order of the day for the second
reading of the bill " for vesting the Affairs of the East India Com-
rise up in this House to present a broad and comprehensive
pany in the hands of certain Commissioners for the benefit of the
scheme of policy to the nation, and that scheme is questioned,
Proprietors and the Public." The motion was agreed to ; the bill
charged, and arraigned, I shall always consider what I say in
was read, as were also the petitions from the courts of proprietors
its support as an argument in my own defence; because I shall
and directors of the East India company ; and their counsel were
always consider my own character, my situation, my rank in
then called to the bar. Mr. lions and Mr. Dallas appeared, for the
the country, as at stake on every measure of state which I
proprietors; and Mr. Hardinge and Mr. Plomer for the court of
shall presume to undertake. The honourable baronet said
directors. As soon as the counsel had withdrawn, Mr. Secretary
truly, therefore, that I was now rising to speak in my de-
Fox and Sir James Lowther rose nearly at the same time, and each
was supported by numerous friends, in his pretensions to speak
fence: bat give me leave at the same time to assert, that I
first ; but Sir James having said that he was going to speak to or-
have something better than my own defence in view, because
der, Mr. Fox sat clown. Sir James then said, that he would not
the present bill has something greater than my own advantage;
for any length of time prevent the right honourable gentleman
it is a bill which I from my soul believe to be necessary to the
from making his defence, for having introduced a bill that had for
deliverance of the empire, and it would be better supported in
its object the violation of the most sacred rights of Englishmen.
my mind by arguments in support of its own principle, than
What he had to observe on the present occasion was, that it would be
by harsh assertions of personality, which, however they may
necessary, before gentlemen should proceed to debate the bill, that
gratify spleen, have nothing to do with the system submitted
the accounts delivered in at the bar should be read ; for as the
to your consideration.
bankruptcy of the East India company was the pretence 'for bring-
MR. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS.
222
MR. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS.
[Nov. 2,"
223
1783-3
He was really surprized, that notwithstanding the various
wit, bad not been read by the clerk, as he should, in the
objections that had been stated to this bill on a former day,
course of his speech, be obliged to touch upon most of the
he found himself this day attacked upon a ground which he
points that it contained. In this account he- found many
had least expected. The violation of charters, the despotism
things inserted, which ought to have been omitted; and many
and oppression of the bill, were topics which he apprehended
things omitted, which ought to have been inserted. Through
would have been principally dwelt on this clay: but he found
these assertions, and these omissions, the company's affairs
that these grounds were nearly abandoned; and now he was
were made to appear in a much more favourable point of
to be attacked on that side where he felt himself most strong:
view than . he believed they would be seen in, when he should
yet he would confess, that he was sorry he was so strong
have stated the different exceptions that he had to their ac-
there, for his strength must be founded on the weakness of
count: but he begged leave again to call to the recollection
the company. It was an old and a politic custom with
of the House, that he did not stand pledged to prove that
ministers, in talking in parliament in the time of war of the
these were actual errors in the account. It might be regu-
z,
strenerth and resources of the different bodies of the commu-
larly calculated, and the sums very properly cast up. He
nity, to describe them as if they were in the most prosperous
did not venture to say that there were positive falsehoods in
and flourishing condition, and, perhaps, he should himself
t he statement; all that he said, and all that he was • pledged
conform to that custom, if the country was now involved in
for, was, that he would state rational objections to articles in
war. The situation of the country, however, was such as
this account, to the amount of more than twelve millions.
would not now allow the practice of those deceptions. We
These objections might not convince the House—they had
could only assist the nation, by knowing and declaring what
convinced him. He begged that gentlemen would go along
the amount of its distress was. Had not this been the case;
with him in the statement, and put down the articles as he
had not the most urgent necessity impelled, he never would
enumerated them; for in so complicated a matter, they could
have brought in such a bill as that under discussion. The'
not follow him from memory.
bill wa.; a child not of choice but of necessity. In like Man-
The first article in the account held out as the property
ner, •he answer he was about to give to the directors' state of
the company; was 4,200,0001. as the debt due to the com-
of
the company's affairs, was not a matter of option, but a mat-
pany from government, at 3 per cent. interest. To this
ter which he could not avoid, in justice to the company, in
article he did not object: but he must make this observa-
justice to himself, and in justice to the world. He assured.
tion; that this sum was to be considered as all other money
the House at the same time, that though his defence must
held in the funds of the country, as not otherwise available
arise from that weakness, he wished most sincerely that he
to the individual than in respect of the annual interest, for
had no such ground of defence; the weakness of a company
there was no obligation of payment; they could not force
so connected with the public, was not a theme which could
the production of it; they could not make government come
afford any satisfaction : but as he would stake his reputation
to a settlement with them; but they stood exactly like the
on the necessity of the measure he proposed, so it afforded
other creditors of the public, secure of the interest, but not
him, as far as his character was concerned, some satisfaction,
armed with powers to come when they pleased at the princi-
that he could find in the company's own accounts substantial -
pal. Another observation, too, occurred on this. They
proofs of the necessity of a parliamentary interposition. But,
took and stated this sum with evident error. Surely it was no
he confessed, that while an honourable and learned gentle-
otherways to be estimated, than as they could carry their stock
man, who sat opposite to him now, and who was likely to
to market. They were not to set it down in this statement
do so on all occasions, (Mr. Dundas, who sat on the opposi-
of their property at the nominal amount, but at the market-
tion side of the House, close by Mr. Pitt,) and other ho-
able value of the commodity. The marketable value of the
nourable gentlemen in that House, could be appealed to as
commodity was three-liftlis of the nominal value, and at no
evidence of the alarming state of the affairs of the company,
more ought they to have stated this sum of property, because
he had not imagined that any long or elaborate proof that
for DO more was the principal available in their present cir-
they were not in a prosperous condition, would be necessary.
cumstances. It was very true, that this money was to be re-
Gentlemen, he said, would find that there was no great oc-
paid to the company, if government should ever put an end
casion for them to lament, that the account which had been
to the monopoly which the company enjoyed of the trade to
delivered in at the bar by the East India company's account-
India, In that case, the full sum of 4,200,0001. must of
224
MR. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS.
[NOv. 27.
1783.]
MR. rox's EAST INDIA BILLS.
225
course be paid ; but as the money was lent, and government
609,954 Now, to this he had an objection. The bonds
was never to repay the principal, if they chose, while they
were here stated as cash, and no notice was taken of a very
continued the monopoly, he must say, it was not so very fair
material article, which was the discount on their being issued
to state the sum lent at the full value of 4,200,0001.; for if the
again. They bore a very considerable discount, and an al-
monopoly should, in any case, be annihilated, without the
lowance should have been made for this discount which they
will of government, then the Money, as he had said, could
must suffer, on their being again issued. They could not
not be called for ; and if the company wished to sell their in-
take any advantage of them but by issuing them anew, and
terest in that loan, which was sunk in the 3 per cents. they
they must be issued at a discount. Instead, therefore, of
would of course lose about two-fifths of the. whole ; and there:
stating them on this side of the account as cash, and charging
fore the account should, in candour, have stated, that towards
them on the other side as debts against themselves, they ought
paying their debts, they had in the 3 per cent. stock, a pro-
to have stated merely the amount of the discount as an item
perty that would sell for 2,52o,ocol.
against themselves on the debtor side of the account.
The next article was of a very singular nature indeed, and
The next sum was stated to be due for goods sold, but not
gave the House a specimen of the principle on which this
delivered, 5 5 3,2581. To this he had no objection. The
account was made up. A charge Wa€. made on government
next article was the value of the goods in the warehouses,
of 260,6871. for the subsistence of prisoners in the war which
of which the freights and duties were paid, 2,500,000/.
concluded in 1763. To this article he did not mean to ob-
This he did not consider as proper to be taken in the way
ject, as a debt desperate, and to be altogether struck out;
which they had taken it. It was to be enquired whether they
but in their present emergency, was it to be considered as an
could dispose of this property, and when,—whether they
article of available property ? This claim was made on France
could make it productive, and to the amount at which they
immediately on the conclusion of the war in 176 3 , and for
had taken it,—though he did not believe that they could ; yet
fifteen years in succession, that is, until the commencement
he did not object to this article. At the same time it might
of the last war. The payment of the sum was constantly
have been proper for them to have stated the amount without
sought for, and as steadfastly denied. Now, though he for his
the customs. They charged themselves with the customs on
own part would promise and pledge himself to the company,
the other side indeed; but to have made the account regular,
that he would exert every effort of his mind and power to
the sum should have been regularly stated here without the
accomplish this payment, though there was a negotiation
double entry.
at this instant going on at Paris for the payment of it, and
The next was the merchandise exported to India, but not
though he would pledge himself also for the exertion and ac-
included in the property here, as not being yet arrived,
tivity of the noble duke now at Paris on the subject, still he
1,219,09 11. When a man was making out a state of ac-
asked, if a sum which had been contended for in vain for so
counts, to prove that he had in hand a sufficient quantity of
long a time, was to be assumed in such an account as avail-
goods, which he could immediately, or in a reasonable time,
able property ?
convert into money, one might be a little surprised to find
The next article of 139,8771. for expences on the Manilla
him enumerating articles which, in their nature, could not be
expedition, and of 21, 44 71. for hospital expellees, bore the
converted into money; and yet the company had acted pre-
same complexion. They were all sums which had been in
cisely in this manner; for they stated that merchandise, to
contention for so long a time, that though they might be
the amount of 1,21 9,091/. had been exported to India, but
fairly due, they could not be estimated as property at hand,
not included in the accounts of property there, not being
in fund, or come-at-able; they had been disallowed by every
arrived when they were made up. Now, in this account were
succeeding treasury, including even that of the Earl of Shel-
included military stores, to the amount of about half that
burne; he therefore begged to ask the House, whether these
sum, which were not to be used for auy mercantile purpose,
three sums making 422,0111. ought to have been brought for-
but were to be, if they had not already been, consumed by the
ward in the present statement as property applicable to the
arm- ;
y to the sum therefore of at least 6o0,0001. in this article,
discharge of their debts?
he would certainly except : it formed no part of the means of
The next article was under the head of cash, which was
the company to pay their present debts, and therefore ought
stated in money, in bonds paid in at the sales, and again to
Rot to have been included in an account of ways and means.
be issued, and in debentures and custom notes, to amount to
They could not bring them to- any market, and they were
VOL.
2
226
i'm. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS.
[NOV. 27.
1783.]
MR. FOX'S EAST IND/A BILLS.
227
not to be taken as available property. On this article, there.
subject, as it spewed to what shifts the company thought
fore, he took 600,000l.
themselves driven, when they would suffer such an article to
The next sum was for silver remaining in the treasury,
he brought into an account; it could be merely for the pur-
a,ogol. The only notice which he meant to take of this arti-
pose of swelling at all events the total; this sum was estimated
cle was, to declare his astonishment, or rather indeed not his
astonishment, but to point it out as a fact, which proved his
to be the value of ships and vessels employed by the company
in England. - The meaning of this was, that the sale of these
statement of their finances to be right. After enumerating
vessels would produce that sum : but as such a sale could be
their millions afloat; their millions in the warehouses ; they
thought of only in case the company were going to sell off
came to the calculation of their specie, and it amounted to the
their stock and give up business, he would object to the article;
sum of f ogo/. This reminded him of an article in one of our great •
because as nothing could be farther from his intention than to
bard's best plays, where speaking of one of his best characters,
dissolve the company, so no such sale could take place
it is said ; so much for sack ; so much fbr 'sugar; so much for
while they should exist. The article of 2 5 3,6i 61. was excep-
burnt hock ; so much for this, and so much for that; but for
tionable on the same ground : the company's houses and
the solid—the substantial—the staff of life—bread—one half.
buildings in London were estimated at that sum ; but as they
penny : so it was with this flourishing company: they had
were not to be sold, he would object to the carrying of that
millions of goods, of bonds, of debts ; but of silver they had
sum to the account of ways and means of the company. If
one solitary thousand pounds.
brought forward, it was to be brought forward on the pre-
The next article was for the advance of freight, to be de-
sumption of their bankruptcy ; a presumption which he never
ducted on the arrival -of the ships, f 72,3347. 1 o this article
made, and which could not be taken.
he had very great and solid objection. It was a piece of
To the article of 703,82 41. taken as the prime cost of four
complete and most unpardonable fidlacy. They stated, in
cargoes on their passage from Bengal, he objected in part.
their favour, the advanced freight which they had paid, but
It ought to have been stated, what was very well known, that
they had not taken against them, on the other side, the sum
the company suffered a considerable loss by Bengal goods, and
of freight and demurrage, which they would have to pay. To
this loss ought to have been deducted from the prime cost of
shew the fallacy of this article, he would suppose that he had
the four cargoes.
i 000l. to pay on his note next Monday, of which, however,
The Company estimated the four cargoes on their passage
he had already advanced too/. In estimating his account he
from Bengal, at prime cost, to be 703,82 47., to this were to
took to his favour the od. which he had paid, but took no
he added the duties, ta-caood., freight, 200,0001., which made
notice, nor made any provision for the goo/. which he had to
1,07 3 ,82 4 1., from which the sum of g6o,000/. being deducted,
pay. The company had advanced the freight on fifty-three
as the whole of the value which those articles would here bring,
ships; of these, fourteen had come home, and there were
the company of course must be losers of 113,8241. To the
still thirty-nine ships behind ; but. of these, two had been
sum of 3 64,5151. stated as the value of cargoes dispatched
burnt and blown up ; so that there remained thirty-seven ships
from Bengal to other presidencies, he intended also to object ;
in India, and coming home, on which the remaining freight
because as these cargoes consisted of military stores, they
and demurrage was to be paid, and this was to be estimated
were not property that could be converted into money; and
at 50,0001. a ship. So that, instead of this sum which they
consequently ought not to be stated as ways and means to pay
had taken to their credit, they were to be charged in this
debts that pressed upon the company immediately. It was
account with 1,85o,000/. for which they were bound, and
in the nature of the article, to a moiety of which he had
which they must pay. This he called a very unpardonable
already excepted, of military stores sent to India; and he
fallacy. He desired to know what parliament would think
begged leave to remark, that whenever this sort of charge
of any responsible minister, paymaster, or servant, who
occurred, he should object to it.
should actin that manner. Or was it possible, that any man
Re now came to the article, entitled, quick stock at Ben-
appointedunder the present bill, and accountable to that House,
gal, under various denominations. In treasure and bills
could present an account so miserably deficient as this was ?
777,3611. that he allowed. The goods for Europe dispatched
The next sum was a small charge for their shipping
the goods imported and unsold—and the salt—but the ar-
England, it was only 12,3001. and he might say de mimmis
ticle of stores unexpended he objected to, on the argument
non carat preetor ; `but still he must say a few words on the
a lready stated, and he took for this 680,5091. The sum ad-
2 2
2 28
MR. PDX'S EAST INDIA BILLS.
[Nov. 27.
783.]
MR. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS.
1
229
vanced to the Board of Trade was stated to be 837,4657. and
abhorrence, the contempt of mankind. He read also a let-
this was erroneous. The sum for investments was only
ter from the Soubah of Dude, of which the following is a
635,0001. and this sum ought to be less by x6o,oco/.
copy : " When the knife had penetrated to the bone, and I was
stated the particulars of this error also. It was not a little
surrounded with such heavy distresses that I could no longer
singular to find by what means the company swelled up their
live in expectations, I wrote you an account of my difficulties.
account of debts due to them, in order to chew what means
The answer which I have received to it is such, that it has
they were possessed of to pay their debts. In this place they
given me inexpressible grief and affliction. I never had the
valued the current rupee at 2S. 3d. when every man knew
least idea or expectation from you and the council, that you
that to rate it at 2S. Id. was setting rather a high value on
would ever have given your orders in so afflicting a manner,
it, the general exchange being at 2s.
in which you never before wrote, and which I could not have
The next article he would wish to press to the consideration
imagined. As I am resolved to obey your orders and direc-
of the House : it was the debt due by the nabob Asoph ul
tions of the council, without any delay, as long as I live, I
Dowla, 78 9,8281. This debt Was in the nature of many
have, agreeably to those orders, delivered up all my private
others which were due to' us in India, and which had been
papers to him (the resident) that when he shall have examined
made the foundation of our various wars. A claim was made
my receipts and expenses, he may take whatever remains.
on the nabobs, or the rajahs, for the debt which they owed.
As I know it to be my duty to satisfy you, the company, and
Their answer was, that they were unable; but that their sub-
council, I have not failed to obey in any instance, but requested
jects in a certain district were not only in arrears, but re-
of him that it might be done so as not to distress me in my
fractory, and therefore if the company would assist them
necessary expellees; there being no other funds but those for
to reduce their subjects to obedience and payment, they would
the expences of my mutseddies, household expellees, and ser-
pay their debts. On this pretext we entered on the war, and
vants, &c. He demanded these in such a manner, that being
what particular species of war we commenced might be drawn
remediless, I was obliged to comply with what he required.
from the records of the company—a war of horror and de-
He has accordingly stopped the pensions of my old servants
vastation—we scoured deserted countries—we ravaged and
for thirty years, whether scpoys, mutseddies, or household
burnt the villages—we destroyed or we captured the women
servants, and the expences of my family and kitchen, toge-
and the infants—in this manner the Rohillas one year, the
ther with the jaghircs of my grandmother, mother, and aunts,
Marawar country the next, then the Polygars were laid waste
and of my brothers and dependents, which were for their sup-
and desolated, and those innocent and unprotected natives
port. I had raised 1300 horse, and three battalions of sepoys,
destroyed; the men were murdered, the women imprisoned
to attend upon me; but, as I have no resource to support them,
and disgraced, their children left a prey to want, and every
I have been obliged to remove the people stationed in the
religious and civil right: violated. To prove this he desired
mahals (districts) and to send his people (the resident's people)
the clerk might read a letter from Lieutenant-colonel Bonjour,
into the mahals; so that I have not now one single servant about
a Swiss officer in the company's service, which described the
me; should I mention to what farther difficulties I have been
manner in which he found a country, in India in 1 7 73, when
reduced, it would lay me open to contempt."
sent into it to force people to pay money : the villages were
He would make no cninments on this letter, be would
deserted by the men, who left none in them but women and
leave it to the feelings of the House. All these debts from this
children ; the men fell upon the English convoys, and cut them
nabob, and from all the nabobs and rajahs, he wished at
Off; and put many of the soldiers to death. He represented
once to strike off ; and he believed that the feelings and the
therefore that either the design must be given up, or reprisals
magnanimity of the country would go with him in saying, that
must be made on women and children, which would shock
they would rather be doomed to pay all that the company
humanity. He painted to them, in the warm colours of fee l
owed, ill as they could at this time bear it; ill as their sink-
-ing, the scene of horror which the service exhibited, and de.-
ing-fund could sustain the shock, they would apply to that,
precated such wars as inglorious and contemptible. Thank
rather than wring it from the princes of the country, by
God ! exclaimed Mr. Fox, they have always failed. TheY
aiding them in wars on their i inieeent people. In this part
have constantly been as unproductive of revenue as they 'were
of his speech, all sides of the House joined in the exclamation
productive of infamy. In every instance we have faded in
or " hear ! hear !" as the testimony of their approbation.
our object, but in no instance have we avoided die cp.x.ses, the
The next article was, debts due by the company in Bengal,
23o
MR. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS.
[Nov. 27.
1783.]
MR. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS.
23 I
on bond and otherwise, 2,367,1161. Upon this he only ob-
these sums might be recovered ; but, the account, instead of
served, that from the word otherwise, it might he imagined
saying any such thing, goes on, and says, " but the above
that there were considerable debts not on bond, whereas the
sums are undoubtedly due to the company." These debts,
whole amount was on bond except co,000l. -With this ob-
put together, would amount to 2,822,31o/. and to this sum
servation to mark the style of the account, he allowed the
he was resolved to object, as unfit to be inserted in an ac-
same. But there was a very curious and singular matter 00.. -
count of means to answer the company's pressing demands.
curred here. It stated that the arrears due to the army did
The ridicule, the absurdity, and the determination to im-
not appear; but by a subsequent minute it did appear, that
pose, contained in this annotation, drew from him a vein
the arrears up to March 1783, amount to 502,174/. This they
of irony and attack that we scarcely remember to have heard
state to come by the last dispatches. Would it not be imagined
equalled even by Mr. Fox. He once more dwelt upon the
that at least they would bring this soo,00d. to account ? Not
scandalous conduct of those who had dared to produce to
one figure of it. He asked the House what they would think
parliament an account so full of imposition and absurdity ;
of government, if having accounts from abroad of arrears
particularly with regard to the stating these desperate and
due to the army, they failed to bring half a million forward ?
ruinous debts, more, ruinous in recovering than abandoning,
Would they not impeach the defaulter? wished, -there-
as a fund, and the unparalleled impudence of this conclusion
fore, to rescue the affairs of the East from a company capa-
of the N. B.- that the above sums were 44 undoubtedly due to
ble of such a crime : for a crime he declared it was. Before
the company." No doubt they were due: and if the com-
he left the article of the quick stock of Bengal, he must ob.,
pany were to go on for five years more, five times the sum
serve, there was an omission entirely of 130,000/. due by the
might, and probably would, from the experience of past times,
company to the Military Fund established by Lord Clive,
be as fairly due ; and from thence it would be in the power
and the nabob Asoph ul Dowla, and a considerable part of
of those who had the hardiness to impose upon the publiciby
which sum must be paid to the heirs of Lord Clive.
such an account, to shew the company in a better situation
The quick stock at Madras came next: and here again he
every year, as their debts encreased : that they would soon
objected to the article of sores, military and naval, unex-
have it in their power to prove the flourishing state of the
pended, which was 264,1 1 ol. ; and on the same account that he
company, by stating the debts of the nabob at twice 900,000/.
objected to the sum clue from Asoph ul Dowla, he objected to
and those of Asoph ul Dowla at double the present sum.
the charge of 9 68,012/. stated to be due by the Nabob of
But he desired the House to recollect, that it was their bu-
Arcot, to 158,2 5 01. due from the Rajah of Tanjore, and to
iness to interfere to prevent that species of prosperity from
993,8041. clue from the renters of sundry districts.
gaining farther than it had hitherto gone, and to stem those
He said, the nabob could not attempt to pay his debt
torrents of blood which must flow, if the attempt was .made
without attempting to take it from the rajah, nor the rajah
to procure them ; an attempt which must end in wasting
without taking it from Some neighbouring power, and all this
more money (setting considerations of humanity- aside) than
with the assistance of the company's troops, and at the ex-
the amount of them would repay. To estimate the property
pence of the company's treasure. As to the renters of sun-
of the company in this way was most fallacious. In propor-
dry districts of land, how could .money be recovered from
tion as they oppressed — as they racked — as they were guilty
those who had none to give ? Had not these people been
of weakness in the first instance, and of violence in the second,
driven from their possessions, , and made the victims of cruel
their debts would encrease; and even when they were .more
and unjust wars? And how could it be expected that they
deeply involved, they might by such accounts, shew them-
should be able to answer this enormous demand ? At the end
selves to be on paper more flourishing. But such debts were
of the account of these debts, there was a curious observa-
not available property, and could not be estimated.
tion, contained in a nota bene, to the following effect:
The debts due by the company in Madras, 31st August
The war in the Carnatic will delay the payment of some
1782, including arrears to the military, 821,16 41., he stated to
of these debts, and must have rendered many others of them
have increased since ; and that the right honourable gentleman
precarious, so that their exact value cannot be ascertained."
opposite (Mr: Pitt) knew it: it was a secret disclosed to the
After this beginning, said Mr. Pox, would not the House
treasury, of which he was chancellor of the exchequer, and
imagine that . the account was going to say that some par-,
he doubted not, he woald not deny it. By these disallowances,
ticular part • of the sum, -such as a 5th, an 8th, or a l oth or
0 4
222
MR. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS.
[Nov. 27.
1783.]
MR. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS.
233
•
he reduced the balance of quick stock at Madras 2,078,0781.
made himself so great, as to be now able to mix in every
to little more than 500,0001.
question of state, and make every measure of government a
Of the quick stock at Bencoolen, consisting of the dif-
personal point in which he had a share—the peace with the
ference between cash and effects, and the debts owing by
Mahrattas had been held out as so favourable to this country,
the company, amounting on the 1 9 th of March, 1783, to a
that every good was to be derived from it. What said the
balance in favour of the company of 189,0361. he allowed
last advices to that? Read the last gazette. In the very mo-
only the odd 8 9,0001. the other 100,0001. being exhausted in
ment that an honourable gentleman, whose zeal and ardour
the expence of the establishment, and therefore on the footing
carried him generally too far, was loud in declaring that all
of warehouses, not convertible, unless they gave up trade,
was peace in India, and congratulating the proprietors on the
consequently not applicable to present relief: The quick
prosperous situation of their affairs, came home the dispatches
stock at St. Helena, 27,6181. disallowed on the same prin-
contained in the last gazette. Let the House learn from
ciple. The quick stock in China, 132,5961. he allowed, be-
that gazette the pressing occasion for an immediate reform
cause consisting of goods, and there we had no territories nor
of the government of India. Let them see the cause of the
establishment to maintain. The quick stock at Bombay, I sth
disasters recorded in those direful dispatches —a quarrel
September 1782, valuing the rupee at 2s. 6d. Cash and bills
among the officers on the common theme of India, the division
24,6631. he allowed. Goods provided for Europe, 95,1451.
of the spoil, the disposal of the plunder taken from the na-
Of this he disallowed 32,0001. put on board two ships that
tives ! They would learn from the gazette, that our army
sailed after the date here taken, and which was included in the
had lost all subordination, as they had learnt from other pub-
prior statement of goods in warehouses, and he also took the
lications, that our civil government in India had lost all
freight and demurrage, to be paid on their arrival in Eng-
energy. And, in addition to that information, he would read
land, 148,0031. for military and naval stores, disallowed for
a letter from Mr. Anderson, stating that the pashwa and
reasons formerly given.
madajee scindia, proposed that they should enter into art
The debts due to the company of 8 9 1,0691. he doubted of
alliance with the company to strip Tippoo Saib of his ter-
as much as of the unsecured part of Ragobah's debt, for the
' ritories, and Make a partition of them between the three.
reasons already stated. By these deductions, the debt due by
This proposition appeared to be acceptable to Mr. Hastings;
the company at Bombay amounted to 2,000,0001. instead of
and it was therefore reasonable to suppose, or to fear, that a
1,790,0001. There was an additional arrear to be taken as
new war was actually raging at this time in India.
due to the army in India, beyond what the account stated of
Did the House know of the disputes in our presidencies,
140,0001. They also owed to the nizam 3 o lacks of rupees,
es well as in the army? That Lord Macartney, that great
which was 300,0001. totally omitted. Besides these sums,
and exalted man, the only man who paid obedience to his
which amount in the whole to 9,400,0001. there was to be
constituents, was at this instant perhaps removed, confined,
added the sum due to the proprietors of 3,200,0001. which
perhaps come to the fate of Lord Pigot? Would they not
made the sum in the whole more than i2,000,0001. which he
remember, that, by the peace with Prance, we had engaged
pledged himself to exhibit in objection to their account.
not to make war with their allies in India ? And that if this
There were other inaccuracies in their statement, which made
new engagement was entered into with the Mahrattas, it
considerable difference in its truth, but into which he had not
would be to all purposes a new war, and consequently we
particularly entered. It was alledged that the sum of 400,0001.
might involve ourselves again with France, and revive war
lately paid by the company to government, was as a price for
In every part of Europe? These were important considera-
the renewal of their charter. It was no such thing. They
tions.
paid it as a debt due to the country, and so it was considered.'
It was said that this was an invasion of the chartered
The right honourable gentleman then went into a train of
rights. Undoubtedly it was: but would gentlemen say that
most admirable and eloquent deductions from his premises,
such infringements were not warrantable? Had they not been
and into distinct answers to the several arguments which had
frequently infringed before? when the votes of the l oci. stock
been. adduced against the principle, provision, and tendency
proprietors were cut ofT— mid in various other instances.
of the bill. The peace with the Mahrattas had been held out
Was this to be called an infringement of their charters, so
by the friends and agents of that great man Mr. Hastings,
enormous and violent, when they had broken the conditions
a man who, by disobeying the orders of his employers, had
of the charter and agreement? Did the House know, if this
234
MR. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS.
ENOV. 27,
178.3.1
MR. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS.
235
bill should be thrown out, which by the bye he did not bee
to be ont of parliament. He wished them to be like himself
lieve it would be, that the treasury could in a fortnight after.
and his colleagues, constantly under the eye and attack of the
wards enter the premises of the East India company with an
Ilouee. -Why order the new officers to give their reasons
extent, and take legal possession of all that they were worth
for what they did ? This regulation was questioned as being
in the world ?
idle. It was not so : it was the character of despotic go-
But necessity was said to be the plea of tyranny — it was
vernments to be dark; of popular governments to have pub-
also the plea of freedom. The revolution, which established
licity; and lie averred that it was their beauty and basis.
the rights and liberties of these kingdoms, was undertaken
Our judicial tribunals were bound to give their reasons. He
and accomplished —nay was justified at the time, on the plea
objected to the plan of Mr. Dundas, because he could not
of necessity : a necessity that superseded all law, and was
agree to give to a man, at the distance of half the globe,
the glorious means of giving liberty to England. On the
uncontrouled power. Even here it was dangerous; but not
present occasion, had it not been agreed on all hands, that
so much so, because it would be watched. The valuable
some measure of regulation and rclbrm was necessary with
jealousies •of the country would be awake, and parliament
respect to India? Nay, had not a right honourable gentle-
would be ready to crush its irregular acts. Some measure
man opposite to him, and his friends, been loud in calling
was admitted on all hands to be necessary; if the present was
out for a system, complete and well digested ? Had they
disapproved, those who disapproved of it were bound to pro.-
not said, no palliatives, no half measures? Let the learned
pose a better.
gentleman opposite him (Mr. Dundas) say how any effec-
Perluips it would be argued, that the distress of the com-
tual reform in the conduct of the India company's. affairs
pany was solely owing to the burdens and pressure of an
could be made without touching their charter. Did the
expensive war, and that what had arisen from a specific mis-
present bill offer more violence to it than the bill proposed
fortune, ought not to be attributed to general misrule and
last year? In what lay the difference? That bill aimed at
mismanagement. In proof that this was not true, he would
lodging an absolute and despotic power of governing in India.
read a letter from a person in a high and responsible situa-
This provided a controulable government; but it was a power-
tion in India, in 1772. Mr. Fox then read an extract, which,
ful government, and it was at home. To give power was
in the language of conviction, attributed all the disasters in
generally considered as a dangerous delegation ; but it be-
India, of that day, to a want of vigour in the principle of
came the more dangerous in proportion as it was lodged at
the system of its government, adopted and pursued by the
a distance. A virtuous and a wise man might lost his prin-
directors at home. The writer of the letter, Mr. Fox said,
ciples and his understanding in India. Disease and luxury
was not a favourite authority with him in all cases; but his
might co-operate to enervate; the sight of wealth within reach
position carried wisdom in it, and his argument was founded
might win to rapacity, and the once pure mind, weakened by
on sound policy.. The other side of the House, at least, he
climate and example, might be betrayed to corruption and
hoped, would agree in this, when he informed them that the
plunder. The temptation was not so great in England.
writer of the letter he had just read, was no other than Mr.
'The commissioners were to act at hand, and to be under the
Hastings himself.
immediate eye of parliament. Where, then, was the dan-
That the bill ought to pass, if it passed at all, with the
ger so loudly trumpeted forth to the world, and so industri-
utmost dispatch, a variety of reasons concurred to justify.
ously made the subject of popular clamour ?
The seeds of war were 'ilready sown in India; and a note
But besides the objection to the commissioners being named
left by Sir Eyre Coote, a man whose memory deserved every
by parliament, the great one was, the influence it was to give
possible praise on account of his gallant actions, afforded
to the crown. This he denied. No immediate influence was
alarming proof of it. The deceased leader of the troops in
to be given but the nomination of the seven commissioners;.
India had written to the governor of Madras, that the ex-
the patronage of the East Indies had been in the hands of
pellee and the burdens incurred by the...,'company in con-
the crown before. What great officer had been appointe4,
sequence of the late war, could only be recovered by a fresh
but by the advice and influence of ministers? And ought they;,
war on Tippoo Seib. Let the House pause upon this; —
to have been otherwise? The only difference is, that before:
let them reflect on the last gazette, the dispatches of which
the court of directors was a screen; and now, they . wilt them-
reached the India house, and filled the general court with
selves be responsible. He did not wish the edmmissioners
disappointment and dismay, in the very moment that an
V
236
en. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS.
L Nov. 27,,
17831 MR. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS. 237
honourable gentleman, whose zealous ardour carried him
the regulations of the one tending to correct and temperate
generally too far, was loud in declaring that all was peace in
the other.
India, and congratulating the proprietors on the prosperous
He now came to a conclusion, and said, that if he should
situation of their affairs. Let the House also learn from that
fall in this, he should fall in a ()Teat and glorious cause,
gazette, the pressing occasion for an immediate reform of the
struggling not only for the company, but for the people of Great
government of India. Let them see the cause of the dis-
Britain and India; for many, many millions ofsouls. The sepa-
asters recorded in those direful dispatches — a quarrel among
ration of the sovereignty from the commerce, was a point
the officers on the common theme of quarrels in India, the
which he thought essential, and it was partly provided for
division of the spoil, the disposal of the plunder taken from
in the bill; but in that and many other provisions, he would
the natives ! There were also additional causes to expect a
be happy to be assisted by the wisdom of the House in a
war there, and to dread its communicating to the other quar-
committee, to which, therefore, he hoped they would go with
ters of the globe, if proper means to prevent it were not in-
him.
stantly resorted to.
Mr. Fox dwelt upon this for some time, and shewed that
The motion for the committal of the bill was opposed by Mr.
we might suddenly find ourselves involved in a war with
William Pitt, who moved, " that the debate be adjourned till to-
morrow morning ;" upon which the House divided.
France, if due care was not taken to avert the mischief. He
also painted, in glowing colours, the alarming state of the
Tellers.
Tellers.
} Mr. E. J. Elliot
Mr. Fitzpatrick
civil government in India, in consequence of the dissentions
Yvan
I 20. —NoEs - •
22e
Sir Geo. Yongel
Mr. Sheridan
' ./ '
between the different presidencies; he declared he felt for
The original motion was then carried.
Lord Macartney, for whom he had ever entertained the sin-
cerest respect. That noble lord had proved himself the most
December I.
obedient to direction from home, the purest in principle, and
the most zealous in conduct, for the national honour, of any
The order of the day being read for the House to resolve itself
governor ever sent to India; but who could say that Lord
into a committee of the whole House, upon the bill " for vesting
Macartney had not been suspended, nay, who could say that
the affairs of the East India company in the hands of certain com-
missioners," Mr. Powys opposed the Speaker's leaving the chair,
he was not at this instant a prisoner, or that he had not
and was supported in his opposition to the bill by Mr. Duncombe,
shared the fate of Lord Pigot ? He said farther, that he con-
Mr. Martin, Mr. William Pitt, Mr. Dundas, Mr. Ord, Mr. Beau-
sidered suffering the company to borrow more money, as in
foy, Mr. Thomas Pitt, and Mr. Arden. The bill was defended by
fact lending them the security of government for what they
Mr. Burke, who upon this occasion made his celebrated speech on
borrowed, and that before he proceeded that length, he held
the extent and bounds of chartered right, and by Lord John Caven-
himself bound to take every possible means to make the safety
dish, Mr. Fox, Sir Grey Cooper, Mr. Gregory, and the Solicitor
of the public, and the prosperity of the company, go hand in
General.
hand together. He knew that in doing so, he put his own
situation, as a minister, to the hazard; but where upon a great
Mr. Secretary Fox delivered himself to the following effect :
national ground he could establish a measure at once salu-
Sir, the necessity of my saying something upon the present.
tary and useful, likely to rescue the natives of India from
occasion, is so obvious to the House, that no apology will, I
oppression, and save the country from. disgrace, he little cared
hope, be expected from me for troubling them even at so
how great the personal risks were that he was to encounter.
late an hour (two o'clock in the morning). I shall not enter
He took notice of the India regulating bill, which however
much into a detail, or minute defence, of the particulars of the
deficient in point of policy, it might be fi yuntl, would not,
bill before you, because few particular objections have been
he believed, be thought to be wanting in regard to numerous
made; the opposition to it consisting only in general reason-
clauses, or sp ew that ministers had not very fully applied
ings, of little application some, and sonic totally distinct from
themselves to the present situation of India. That bill, he
the point in question.
said, in almost every one, of its clauses, restrained and les-
This bill has been combated through its past stages upon
sened the exercise of the power of those who were to act
various principles; but to this moment the House has not
under the authority of the bill then before the House. The
heard it canvassed upon its own intrinsic merits. The debate
two bills ought therefore to be considered as it were together,
tins night has turned chiefly upon two points—violation of
238
MR. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS.
[Dec. I.
1793.]
ant. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS.
239
charter, and increase of influence ; and upon both these points
accomplishing this end, it is objected that the charter of the
I shall say a few words.
company should not be violated ; and upon this point, Sir, I
The honourable gentleman, who opened the debate, (Mr.
shall deliver my opinion without disguise. A charter is a
Powys,) first demands my attention, not indeed for the wisdom
trust to one or more persons for some given benefit. If this
of the observations which fell from him this night, (acute and
trust be abused, if the benefit be not obtained, and its failure
judicious as he is upon most occasions,) but from the na-
arises from palpable guilt, or (what in this case is full as bad)
tural weight of all such characters in this country, the aggre-
from palpable ignorance or mismanagement, will any man
gate of whom should, in my opinion, always decide upon pub.
gravely say, that trust should not be resumed, and delivered-
lie measures : but his ingenuity was never, in my opinion, ex-
to other hands, more especially in the case of the East India
erted more ineffectually, upon more mistaken principles, and
company, whose manner of executing this trust, whose laxity
more inconsistent with the common tenor of his conduct, than
and langour produced, and tend to produce consequences dia-
in this debate.
metrically opposite to the ends of confiding that trust, and of
The honourable gentleman charges me with abandoning
the institution for which it was granted? —I beg of gentlemen
that cause, which, he says, in terms of flattery, Thad once so suc-
to be aware of the lengths to which their arguments upon the
cessfully asserted. I tell him, in reply, that , if he were to search
intangibility of this charter may be carried. Every syllable
the history of my life, he would find that the period of it, in
virtually impeaches Jig establishment by which we sit in this
which I struggled most for the real, substantial cause of liberty,
House, in the enjoyment of this freedom, and of every other
is this very moment that I am addressing :you. Freedom, ac-
blessing of our government. These kind of arguments are
cording to my conception of it, consists in the safe and sacred
batteries against the main pillar of the British constitution.
possession of a man's property, governed by laws defined and
Sonic men are consistent with their own private opinions, and
certain; with many personal privileges, natural, civil, and re-
discover the inheritance of family maxims, when they question
ligious, which he cannot surrender without ruin to himself;
the principles of the revolution ; but I have no scruple in sub-
and of which to be deprived by any other power, is despotism.
scribing to the articles of that creed which produced it. So-
This bill, instead of subverting, is destined to give stability to
vereigns are sacred, and reverence is due to every king : yet,
these principles ; instead of narrowing the basis of freedom, it
with all my attachments to the person of a first magistrate,
tends to enlarge it; instead of suppressing, its object is to in-
had I lived in th.e reign of James the Second, I should most
fuse and circulate the spirit of liberty.
certainly have contributed my efforts, and borne part in those
What is the most odious species of tyranny ? Precisely
illustrious struggles which vindicated an empire from heredi-
that which this bill is meant to annihilate. That a handful of
tary servitude, and recorded this valuable doctrine, " that trust
men, free themselves, should execute the most base and abo-
abused is revocable."
minable despotism over millions of their fellow creatures; that
No man, Sir, will tell that a trust to a company of mer-
innocence should be the victim of oppression; that industry
chants, stands upon the solemn and sanctified ground by which
should toil for rapine; that the harmless labourer should sweat,
a trust is committed to a monarch; and I am at a loss to recon-
not for his own benefit, but for the luxury and rapacity of
cile the conduct of men who approve that resumption of vio-
tyrannic depredation ; in a word, that thirty million of men
lated trust, which rescued and re-established our unparalleled
(rifted by Providence with the ordinary endowments of hu-
and admirable constitution with a thousand valuable improve-
inanity, should groan under a system of despotism, unmatched
ments and advantages at the Revolution, and who, at this mo-
in all the histories of the world.
ment, rise up the champions of the East India company's
What is the end of all government? Certainly the happi-
Charter, although the incapacity and. incompetence of that
ness of the governed. Others may hold other opinions ; but
company to a clue and adequate discharge of the trust deposit-
this is mine, and I proclaim it. What are we to think of a
ed in them by that charter, are themes of ridicule and contempt
government, whose good fortune is supposed to spring from
to all the world ; and although, in consequence of their mis-
m
the calamities of its subjects, whose aggrandisement grows out
anagement, connivance, and imbecility, combined with the
of the miseries of mankind ? This is the kind of government
Wickedness of their servants, the very name of an Englishman
exercised under the East India company upon the natives of
is detested, even to a proverb, through all Asia, and the
n
Indostan ; and the subversion of that infamous government is
ational character is become degraded and dishonoured. To
the main object of the bill in question, But in-the 'progress of
rescue that name from odium, and redeem this character from
II
240
MR. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS.
[Dec. /,
1783.]
MR. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS.
241
disgrace, are some of the objects of the present bill; and gen-
bill, and the bill before you, arc grounded upon the same bot-
tlemen should, indeed, gravely weigh their opposition to a
tom, of abuse of trust, mal-administration, debility, and inca-
measure which, with a thousand other points not less valuable,
pacity in the company and their servants : but the difference in
aims at the attainment of these objects.
the remedy is this : the learned gentleman's bill opens a door to
Those who condemn the present bill as a violation of the
an influence a hundred times more dangerous than any that
chartered rights of the East India company, condemn, on the
call be imputed to this bill, and deposits in one man all arbi-
same ground, I say again, the Revolution, as a violation of the
trary power over millions, not in England, where the evil of
chartered rights of King James II. He, with as much reason,
this corrupt ministry could not be felt, but in the East Indies,
might have claimed the property of dominion ; but what was
the scene of every mischief, fraud, and violence. The learned
the language of the people? " No, you have no property in
gentleman's bill afforded the most extensive latitude for mal-
dominion ; dominion was vested in you, as it is in every chief
yersation ; the bill before you guards against it with all imagina-
magistrate, for the benefit of the community to be governed;
ble precaution. Every line in both the bills which I have had
it was a sacred trust delegated by compact; you have abused
the honour to introduce, presumes the possibility of bad ad-
that trust ; you have exercised dominion for the purposes of
ministration, for every word breathes suspicion. This bill
vexation and tyranny—not of comfort, protection, and good
supposes that men are but men ; it confides in no integrity, it
order; and we therefore resume the power which was origin-
trusts no character; -it inculcates the wisdom of a jealousy of
ally ours : we recur to the first principles of all government, the
power, and annexes responsibility not only to every action,
will of the many; and it is our will that you shall no longer
but even to the inaction of those who are to dispense it. The
abuse your dominion." The case is the same with the East
necessity of these provisions must be evident, when it is known
India company's government over a territory, as it has been
that the different misfortunes of the company resulted not,
said by my honourable friend (Mr. Burke) of 280,000 square
more from what the servants did, than from what the masters
miles in extent, nearly equal to all christian Europe, and con-
did not.
taining thirty million of the human race. It matters not
To the probable effects of the learned gentleman's bill, and
whether dominion arises from conquest, or from compact.
this, I beg to call the attention of the House. Allowing, for
Conquest gives no right to the conqueror to be a tyrant; and
argument's sake, to the governor-general of India, under the-
it is no violation of right to abolish the authority which is
first-named bill, the most unlimited and superior abilities, with
misused.
soundness of heart and integrity the most unquestionable;
Having said so much upon the general matter of the bill, I
what good consequences could be reasonably expected from
must beg leave to make a few observations upon the remarks
his extraordinary, extravagant, and unconstitutional power,
of particular gentlemen ; and first of the learned gentleman
under the tenure by which he held it ? Were his projects the
over against me (Mr. Dundas). The learned gentleman has
most enlarged, his systems the most wise and excellent which
made a long, and, as he always does, an able speech; yet,
human skill could adopt; what fair hope could be entertained .
translated into plain English, and disrobed of the dextrous
of their eventual success, when, perhaps, before lie could enter
ambiguity in which it has been iuveioped, what does it amount
upon the execution of any measure, he may be recalled in conse-
to? To an establishment of the principles upon which this bill .
quence of one of those changes in the administration of this
is founded, and an indirect confession of its necessity. He
Country, which have been so frequent for a few years, and which
allows the frangibility of charters, when absolute occasion
some good men wish to see every year? Exactly the same
requires it, and admits that the charter of the company should
reasons which banish all rational hope of benefit from an
not prevent the adoption of a proper plan for the future govern-
Indian administration under the bill of the learned gentleman,
ment of India, if a proper plan can be achieved upon no other
justify the duration of the proposed commission. If the dis-
terms. The first of these admissions seems agreeable to the
I
tis,ers of the plan of governing India (a place from which
civil maxims of the learned gentleman's life, so far as a maxim
the answer of a letter cannot be expected in less than twelve
can be traced in a political character, so various and flexible:
m onths) have not greater stability in their situations than a
and to deny the second of these concessions was impossible,
British ministry— adieu to all hopes of rendering our east-
even for the learned gentleman, with a staring reason upon
ern territories of any real advantage to this country, adieu
your table, I mean the learned gentleman's bill of last year, to
to ever y expectation of purging or purifying the Indian sys-
confront him if he attempted it. The learned gentleman-'
of reform, of improvement, of reviving confidence, of
VOL.
242
Mu .FOX'S EAST 'INDIA BILLS.
•
[Dec.
I783.]
MR. FOX'S EAST INDIA DILLS.
243
regulating the trade upon its proper principles, of restorimp
Jess, and incapable. In his time, secretaries were all purity —
tranquillity, of re-establishing the natives in comfort, and 07
with every power of corruption in their hands; but so inflexi-
securing the perpetuity of these blessing., by the cordial re-
bly attached to rigid rectitude, that no temptation could se-
concilement of the Indians with their farmer tyrants upon
duce them to use that power for the purpose of corrupting, or,
fixed terms of amity, friendship, and fellowship ! I will
to use his own words, for soothing, or softening, or meli-
leave the House and the kingdom to judge which is best cal-
oratim •. The learned gentleman has formed his opinion of
culated to accomplish those salutary ends the bill of the
the simplicity and inaction of secretaries, from that golden
learned gentleman, which leaves all to the discretion of one
age of political probity, when his own friends were in power,
man, or the bill. belbre you which depends upon the duty of
and when himself was every thing but a minister. This er-
several men, who are in a state of daily account to this House,
roneous humanity of opinion arises in the learned gentleman's
of hourly account to the ministers of the crown, of occasionid
unsuspecting, unsullied nature, as well as in a commerce with
account to the -proprietors of East India stock, and who are
only the best and purest ministers of this country, which has
allowed sufficient time to practise their plans, unaffected by
given him so favourable an impression of a secretary of state,
every political fluctuation.
that he thinks this patronage, so dangerous in the hands of
But the learned gentleman wishes the appointment of an
seven commissioners, perfectly safe in his hands ! I leave to
Indian secretary of state in preference to these -conunis-
the learned gentleman that pleasure which his mind must feel
sinners : in all the learned gentleman's ideas on the govern-
under the conviction with which he certainly gives this opi-
'meta of India, the notion of a new secretary of state for the
nion ; but I submit to every man who heats. measais• at would
Indian department springs up, and seems to be cherished with
be the probable comments of the other side of the House, had
-the fondness of consanguinity*; but that scheme strikes me as
proposed either the erection of an Indian secretary, or the
liable to a thousand times more objections than the plan in
annexation of the Indian business to the office which I hold.
agitation. hay, the learned gentleman had rather, it seems,
In the assemblage of the learned gentleman's objections, there
the affairs of India were blended with the business of the of-
is ,one still more curious than those I have mentioned. He
fice which I have the honour to hold. His good disposition
dislikes this bill because it establishes an imperiunz in imperio.
towards me upon all occasions cannot 'be doubted, and his
In the course of opposition to this measure, we have been fa-
sincerity in this opinion is unquestionable ! I beg the House
miliarized to hear certain sentiments and particular words
to attend to the reason which the learned gentleman gives for
in this House—but directed, in reality, to other places.
this preference, and to see the plights to which men, even of
Taking it therefore for granted, that the learned gentleman
his understanding, are reduced, who must oppose. He laughs
has not so despicable an idea of the good sense of the mem-.
at the responsibility of the commissioners to this House, who,,
'hers, as to expect any more attention within these walls to
in his judgment, will find means ofsoodiing, and softening, and,
such a dogma, than has been shewn to the favourite phrase of
meliorating the members into an oblivion of their mal-admini s
his honourable friend near him, (Mr. William Pitt,) who calls
-- tration. What opinion has the learned gentleman of a .secretary
a bill which backs this sinking company with the credit of the
of state? Does he think him so inert, so inactive, so incapable
state, a confiscation of their property, I would wish to ask the
a creature, that with all this vaunted patronage of the seven
learned gentleman, if he really holds the understanding, even
in his own hands, the same means of soothing, and softening,
of the multitude, in such contempt, as to imagine this species
and meliorating are thrown away upon him? The learned
ofargument can have the very slightest effect? The multitude
gentleman has been for some years conversant with ministers;
know the fallacy- of it as well as the learned gentleman him-
but his experience has taught him, it seems, to consider secre-
helf. They know that a dissolution of the East India com-
taries not only untainted and immaculate, but innocent, harm-
p-my has been wished for scores of years, by many good peo-
_
Oein this country, for the very reason that it was an imperium
24 imperio. Yet the learned gentleman, with infinite gravity
o
'x Mr. Dundas's bill was to have appointed a secretary of state for the
f;faee, tells you lie dislikes this bill, because it establishes this
'Indian department, and to have made the governor-general despotic in
novel and :odious principle. Even a glance of this bill, com-
India. If the Earl of Shelburne had continued in power, it was under'
pared with the present constitution of the company, manifests
stood that Mr. Dundas was to be the Indian secretary. Mr. Fox here'
the, futility of this objection, and proves that the company is
:AO to, this aaux:dote.
R
s,
244
MR. PDX'S EAST INDIA BILLS.
[Dec. 1,
17831
MR. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS.
245
in its present form, a thousand times more an imperiwn in
company? Why not leave the power of election in the pro-
Teri() than the proposed commissioners. The worst species of
prietors, who have thwarted every good attempted by the di-
government is that which can run counter to all the ends of its
rectors ?
institution with impunity. Such exactly was the East India
The last point adverted to by the learned gentleman relates
company. No man can say, that the directors and proprie-
to influence; and upon his remarks, combined with what fell
tors have not, in a thousand instances, merited severe inflic-
from some others upon the same subject, I beg leave to make
tion; yet who did ever think of a legal punishment for either
a few observations. No small portion of my life has been em-
body ? Now, the great feature of this bill is to render the
ployed in endeavours to diminish the inordinate influence of
commissioners amenable, and to punish them upon delin-
the crown. In common with others, I succeeded, and I glory
quency.
in it. To support that kind of influence which I formerly
The learned gentleman prides himself that his bill did not
subverted, is a deed of which I shall never deserve to be ac-
meddle with the commerce of the company ; and another
cased. The affirmation with which I first introduced this
gentleman, after acknowledging the folly of leaving the go-
b
plan, I now repeat ; re-assert that this bill as little aug-
vermnent in the hands of the company, proposes to separate
ments the influence of the crown, as any measure which can
the commerce entirely from the dominion, and leave the for-
be devised for the government of India, that presents the
mer safe and untouched to the company itself. I beg leave to
slightest promise of solid success, and that it tends to increase
appeal to every gentleman conversant in the company's af-
it in a far less degree than the bill proposed by the learned
fairs, whether this measure is, in the nature of things, prac-
gentleman. The very gertimi of influence consists in hope or
ticable at this moment. That the separation of the commerce
fear ; fear of losing what we have, or hope of gaining more.
from the government of the East may be ultimately brought
Make these commissioners removable at will, and you set all
about I doubt not; but when gentlemen reflect upon the im-
the little passions of human nature afloat. If benefit can be
meliate state of the company's affairs, when they reflect that
derived from the bill, you had better burn it than make the
their government was carried on for the sake of their commerce,
duration short of the time necessary to accomplish the plans
that both have been blended together for such a series of
it is destined for. That consideration pointed out the expe-
years ; when they review the peculiarly perplexed, and in-
diency of a fixed period; and in that respect it accords with
volved state of the eastern territories, their dissimilitude to
the principle of the learned gentleman's bill : with this supe-
every system in this part of the globe, and consider the deep
rior advantage, that instead of leaving the commissioners
and laborious deliberation with which every step for the esta-
liable to all the influence which springs from the appointment
blishment of a salutary plan of government, in the room of
of a governor-general, removable at pleasure, this bill in-
the present odious one, must be taken—the utter impossibility
vests them with the power for the time specified, upon the
of instantly detaching the governing power from interference
Some tenure that British judges hold their station, removable
with the commercial body will be clear and indubitable.
upon delinquency, punishable upon guilt, but fearless of power
A gentleman has asked, why not choose the commissioners
if they discharge their trust, liable to no seducement, and
out of the body of directors ; and why not leave the choice of
with full time and authority to execute their functions for the
the assistant directors in the court of proprietors? That is to
common good of the country, and for their own glory. I
say, why not do that which would infallibly undo all you are
beg of the House to attend to this difference, and then jud,re
aiming at ? I mean no general disparagement when I say
upon the point of increasing the influence of the crown, ctin-
that the body of the directors have given memorable proofs
trasted with the learned gentleman's bill.
that they are not the sort of people to whom any man can
The state of the accusations against me upon this subject _of
look for the success or salvation of India. Amongst them there
influence, is truly curious. The learned gentleman, (Mr.
are, without doubt, some individuals respectable, both for
D undas,) in strains of emphasis, declares, that this biil dimi-
their knowledge arid integrity ; but I put it to the candour of
nishes the influence of the crown beyond all former attempts,
gentlemen, whether they-are the sort of men whose wisdom,
and calls upon those who formerly voted with him in support
energy, and diligence, would give any promise of emancipating
of that influence, against our efforts to reduce it, and who now
the East India concerns from their present disasters and dis:'
sit near me, to join him now in opposing my attempts to di-
graces. Indeed, both questions may be answered in 00
minish that darling influence. He tells them I " out-herod
words. Why not choose the directors, who have ruined the
Herod ;" that I am out-doing all my former out-doings ; 'and
II
R 3
246
MR. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS.
[Dec. t,
1783.]
MR. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS.
247
proclaims me as the merciless and insatiate enemy of the in-
the progress of this bill has been retarded, especially by the
fluence of the crown.
right honourable gentleman (Mr. W. Pitt). First, the mem-
Down sits the learned gentleman, and up starts an honour_
bers were not all in town, and time was desired upon that
able gentleman, with a charge against Me, upon the same
account. Next, the finances of the East India company were
subject, of a nature the direct reverse. I have fought under
Iris-stated by me, and time was desired to prove that. The
your banner, cries the honourable gentleman, (Mr. Martin,)
time came, the proofs exhibited, counsel heard, and yet the
against that fell giant, the influence of the crown; I have
issue was, that my former statement, instead of being con-
bled in that battle which you commanded, and have a claim
t roverted, became more established by the very proofs which
upon the rights of soldiership. You have conquered through
were brought to overturn it. The right honourable gen-
us ; and now that victory is in your anus, yell turn traitor
tleman has misrepresented me to-night again : he has an
to our cause, and carry over your powers to the enemy.
evident pleasure in it, which indeed I cannot prevent; but
The fiercest of your former combatants in the cause of in-
I can prevent this House and the country from believing
fluence, falls far short of you at this moment; your attempts
him. He prefers the authority of his own conception (eager
at re-erecting this monster, exceed all the exertions of your
enough in all conscience to misunderstand me) of what
former foes. This night you will make the influence of the
said, to my own repeated declarations of my own meaning.
crown a colossus, that shall bestride the land, and crush every
He supposes a mistake because he wishes it. I never did say
impediment. I impeach you for treachery to your ancient
the company were absolute bankrupts to the amount of the
principles— come, come, and divide with us j
debt; but I said there was immediate necessity of paying
This honourable gentleman, after a thrust or two at the
that given sum, without any immediate means of providing
coalition, sits down ; and whilst the House is perplexing
for it. The account of the company's circumstances, pre-
itself to reconcile these wide differences, the right honourable
seated last week, furnished matter of triumph to the right
gentleman over the way, (Mr. William Pitt,) confounds all past
honourable gentleman for the full space of three hours, that
contradictions, by combining, in his own person, these ex-
is to say, whilst counsel were at the bar. I made no objec-
travagant extremes. He acknowledges that he has digested
tion to the account but this trifling one — that twelve millions
a paradox; and a paradox well lie might call it, for never
were stated which ought not to appear at all there, and which
did a grosser one puzzle the intellects of a public assembly.
were placed there only for delusion and fallacy ! I never ob-
By a miraculous kind of discernment he has found out, that
jected to the arithmetic of the account. The sums, I doubt
the bill both increases and diminishes the influence of the
not, were accurately cast up even to a figure : yet the House
crown.
will recollect, that the right honourable gentleman, about this
The bill diminishes the influence of the crown, says one:
very hour of that debate, endeavoured to protract the busi-
you are wrong, says a second, it increases it : you are both
ness to the next day, upon assuring the House that the com-
right, says a third, for it both increases and diminishes the
pany would then support their statement. I refused to accede,
influence of the crown ! Now, as most members have one or
because I knew the matter to be mere shifting and manmu-
other of these opinions upon the subject, the right honoura-
vring for a vote, and that the company could not support
ble gentleman can safely join with all parties upon this point;
their statement. Was I right? The House sees whether I
but few, I trust, will be found to join him.
was: the House sees the finance-post is now totally aban-
Thus, Sir, is this bill combatted, and thus am I accused.
doned, and for the best reason in the world, because it is no
The nature and substance of these objections I construe as
longer tenable. But the right honourable gentleman is in-
the strongest comment upon the excellence of the bill. If a
deed a man of resources; he now gives me a challenge, and
more rational opposition could be made to it, no doubt i1
I beg the. House to remark, that I accept his challenge, and
would. The truth is, it increases the influence of the crown,
that I prophecy he will no more meet me upon this than upon
and the influence of party as little as possible ; and if the re-
the former points.
form of India, or any other matter, is to be postponed until 4
But there is no limit to a youthful and vigorous fancy.
scheme be devised, against which ingenuity, or ignorance, or
The right honourable gentleman just now, in very serious
caprice, shall not raise objections, the affhirs of human life
terms, and with all his habitual gravity, engages, if the
must stand still.
4ouse will join in opposing us to-night, that he will digest
I beg the House will attend a little to the manner in which
ancl -methodise a plan, the outline of which he has already
R 4
2 4 8
MR. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS.
[Dee. I,
1783.]
MR. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS.
249
conceived. He has nothing now to offer ; but justly con-
dons of the cabinet at that time than I do, can better tell
fiding in the fertility of his own imagination, and the future
whether any measure of this nature was then intended. The
exercise of his faculties, he promises that he will bring a
words are very wide, and seem to portend at least something
plan, provided the majority of this House will join him to-
very important; but whether any thing similar to this mea-
night. Now, if ever an idea was thrown out to pick up a
sure was meant, as this passage seems to imply, or not, is
stray vote or two in the heel of a debate, by a device, the
indifferent to the point in question. This is clear from it,
idea given a while ago by the right honourable gentleman is
that it gives a very ceremonious warning to the East India
is
precely such ;
i
but i f I can augur rightly from the com-
company; enough surely to expose the weakness and futi-
plexion of the House, his present will have exactly the same
lity of the learned gentleman's remark. The changes and
success with all his past stratagems to oppose this bill.
circumstances of the cabinet, in the course of the last session,
The learned gentleman (Mr. Dundas) with singular pla-
can be the only excuse for the delay of some decisive measure
cidness, .without smile or sneer, has said, " as this measure
with regard to India; and if in addition to all these, any
was probably decided upon some time since, the East India
thing more is requisite to confirm the notoriety of parliament
company, who could not expect such a blow, ought to have
being to enter upon the business, the following paragraph of
been informed of the intended project. The company was
king's closing
the
• speech, last July, completes the mass of
evidently unaware of this attack, and, in fairness, should
evidence against the learned gentleman. His majesty, after
have been apprised of it." Does the learned gentleman
intimating a belief that he shall be obliged to call his parlia-
imagine men are in their sober senses, who, listen to such
ment together earlier than usual, thus speaks: — " The con-
cavilling and quibbling opposition? The company unaware
sideration of the affairs of the East Indies will require to 'be
of this- attack ! The learned gentleman's own labours, inde-
resumed as early as possible, and to be pursued with a serious
pendent of any other intimation, had been an ample warning
and unremitting attention." Superadd to all this, the part
to the company 'to be prepared. Every-man in the kingdom,
of the king's opening speech this year upon India; and if the
who reads a newspaper, expected something; and the only
whole do not constitute sufficient testimony that the company
wonder with the nation was, how it could be so long delayed.
had full notice, nothing can.
The reports of the committees alarmed the public so much, for
Yet, notwithstanding all this, the learned gentleman accuses
the honour of the countr y, and for the salvation of the com-
us of surprising the company ; and his right honourable friend,
pany, that all eyes were upon East India affairs. This sort
in hopes his proposal
another bill may have weight in the
dr
of observation had, indeed, much better come from any other
division, repeats the hacknied charge of precipitation, and
man in this House, than from that identical gentleman.
forces the argument for delay in a taunt, " that we wish to
But if these were not sufficient to rouse the attention and
get rid of our torments, by sending this bill to the other
diligence of the company, his majesty's speech at the com-
House." The right honourable gentleman's talents are
mencement: and conclusion of the late session of parliament,
splendid and various; but I assure him, that all his efforts,
gave them note of preparation in the most plain and decisive
for the last eight clays, have not given me a single torment.
terms. In his opening speech, his majesty thus speaks to
Were I to chuse a species of opposition to insure a minis-
parliament upon the subject of India: —" The regulation of
terial tranquillity, it would be the kind of opposition which this
a vast territory in Asia, opens a large field for your wisdom,
bill has received, in which every thing brought to confute,
prudence, and foresight : I trust that you will be able to form
has tended to confirm, and in which the arguments adduced
some fundamental laws which may make their connection with
to expose the weakness, have furnished materials to establish
Great Britain a blessing to India; and that you will take
the wisdom of the measure: so impossible is it, without some-
therein proper measures to give all foreign nations, in mat-
thing of a tolerable cause, even for the right honourable gen-
ters of foreign commerce, an entire and perfect confidence
tleman's abilities to have effect, though his genius may make
in the probity, punctuality, and good order of our govern-
a flourishing and superior figure in the attempt !
ment. You may be assured that whatever depends upon me,
Before I proceed to the other parts of the debate, I wish
shall be executed with a steadiness, which can alone preserve
he say one word upon a remark of the learned gentleman:
that part of
b e
my dominions, or the commerce which arises
says, that the clause relative to the zemindars was sub
from it."
Rested by his observations. God forbid I should detract
The learned gentleman, who knows more of the disposi-
fl'orn the merit, or diminish the desert of any man I Un-
250
MR. FOX'S LAST INDIA BILLS.
[Dee, I.
I783.]
MR. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS.
251
doubtedly that excellent part of the regulation-bill originated
di g is not more incumbent upon us, than the establishment of
with the learned gentleman ; and if lie had been in this
the eastern trade upon such principles of solidity and fitness,
House when I introduced the subject of India, he would
as shall give some just hopes that the public may be speedily
have known that I did him full and complete justice upon
relieved from the monstrous pressure of constantly supporting
that point.
the indigence of the company.
My noble friend (Lord John Cavendish) has said, that this
I have spoken of myself very often in the coarse of what
bill does not arise from the poverty of the company, but that
have said this night, and must speak still more •
frequently in the
liberal policy and national honour demanded it. Upon the
course of what I have to say : the House twill see this awkward
last day this bill was debated, I confined myself chiefly to
task is rendered indispensable, infinitely more having been
the demonstration of the fallacy and imposture of that notable
said concerning me, during the debater titan concerning the
schedule presented by the East India company ; and having
question, which is the proper subject of agitation. The right
proved its falsehood, I can now with the greater safety de-
honourable gentleman (Mr. W. Pitt) says, that nothing ever
clare, that if every shilling of that fictitious property was real
happened to give hint an ill impression of my character, or
and forthcoming, a bill of this nature would not therefore
to prevent a mutual confidence. He says rightly; there have
be the Jess necessary. I thought we were fully understood
been interchanges of civility, and amicable habits between
upon this point, from the opening speech in this business,
us, in which I trust I have given him no cause to complain.
which did not so degrade the rne4,oure as to say it originated
But after pronouncing a brilliant eulogy upon me and my
in the poverty of the company, Which, as, my noble friend
capacity to serve the country, the right honourable gentle-
rightly remarks, was the smallest reason for its adoption,
man considers me at the same time the most dangerous man
and which opinion is not, as the right houourable gentle-
in the kingdom.
man insinuates, 4 6 S711ifting," but recognising andexecording
Mr. Pitt said across the House, " dangerous only from this
the true grounds of the bill. If any misunderstanding, then,.
measure :" to which Mr. Fox instantly made this reply : I-
has hitherto taken place upon this head, it will, I trust, cease
call upon the House to attend to the right honourable gen-
henceforth, and so odious a libel upon this country will not
tleman; he thinks me dangerous only from this measure, and
pass current, as that sordid motives only induced. the govern-
confesses, that hitherto he hasseen nothing in-my conduct to
ment of England to that which we were bound to do, as
obliterate his good opinion. Compare this with his opposition
politicians, as christians, and as men, by every consideration
during the last and the present session. Let every man re-
Which makes a nation respectable, great, and glorious.
flect, that up to this moment the right honourable gentleman.
Having vindicated the bill from this aspersion, and found-
deemed me worthy of confidence, and competent to my situate
ed it upon that basis which every honest and sensible man
tion in the state. I thank him for the support lie has afforded
in England must approve, I may be allowed to say that some
to the minister he thus esteemed, and shall not press the
regard may be had even to the mean and mercenary upon
advantage he gives me, farther than leaving to himself to
this subject—a portion of whom we have here, in common
reconcile his practice and his doctrine in the best manner he
with all other countries. Will such men endure with temper
can.
a constant drain upon this kingdom, for the sake of this mo-
The right honourable gentleman could not for one night
nopolizing corporation ? 'Will those, for instance, who cla-
pass by the coalition, yet I think he might have chosen a
mour against a two-penny tae, afford, with good humour,
fitter time to express his indignation against the noble lord
million after million to the East India company ? The sink-
(North) than the present moment. An attack upon the
ing fund is at this moment a million the worse for the defi-
noble lord in his presence would bear a more liberal colour ;
ciencies of the company, and as the noble lord (John Caven-
and the cause of his absence now"', would surely rather
dish) says, an extent must in three weeks arrest their pro-
disarm than irritate a generous enemy. There are distinc-
row, if parliament does not interpose or enable' them to
tions in hatred, and the direst foes upon such occasions mo-
discharge a part of their debt to the crown. Let those, there-
derate their aversion. The coalition, is, however, a fruitfhl
fore, who think the commerce ought to be instantly separated
topic, and the power of traducing it, which the weakest and
from the dominion, (were that at this time possible, and who
think it ought to be left •,vholly in the present hands, reflect,
that the formation of a vigorous system of government for In-
Lord North left the houic'. in a state of indisposition, about taidnight.
252
MR. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS.
[Dec. T,
NE. FOX S EAST INDIA BILLS.
1783J
253
meanest creatures in the country enjoy and exercise, is of
junction, in 1757, against which a similar clamour was raised,
course equally vested in men of rank and parts, though every
saved the empire from ruin, and raised it above the rivalship
man of parts and rank would not be apt to participate in the
of all its enemies. The country, when we came into office,
privilege. Upon the coalition, the right honourable gentle-
bore not a very auspicious complexion ; yet, Sir, I do not
man is welcome to employ his ingenuity, but upon another
despair of seeing it again resume its consequence in the scale
subject alluded to by him, I shall beg leave to advise, nay even
of nations, and again make as splendid a figure as ever.
to instruct him.
Those who asserted the impossibility of our agreeing with the
In what system of ethics will the right honourable gentle-
noble lord end his friends, were false prophets; for events
man find the precept taught of ripping up old sores, and re-
have belied their augury. 'We have differed like men, and
viving animosities 'among individuals, of which the parties
like men we have agreed. A body of the best and honestest
themselves retain no memory '" ? This kind of practice may
men in this House, who serve their country without any other
incur a much worse charge than weakness of understanding,
reward than that arising from the disinterested discharge of
and subject a man to much greater imputations than are
their public duty, approved that junction, and sanctify the
commonly applied to political mistakes or party 'violence.
measure by their cordial support.
The soundness of the heart may be liable to suspicion, and
Such, Sir, is this coalition, which the state of the country
the moral character be in danger of suffering by it, in the
rendered indispensable ; and for which the history of every
opinion of mankind. To cover the heats, and obliterate the
country records a thousand precedents ; yet to this the term
sense of former quarrels between
disgraceful is applied. Is it not extraordinary, then, that
WO persons, i§ a very dis-
tinguished virtue : to renew the subject of such differences,
gentlemen should be under such spells of false-delusion, as not
and attempt the revival of such disputes, deserves a name
to see, that if calling it disgraceful makes it so, these epithets
which I could give it, if that right honourable gentleman had
operate with equal force against themselves. If the coalition
not forgotten himself; and fallen into some such deviation.
be disgraceful, what is the anti-coalition ? When I see the
He values himself I doubt not, too much, again to make a
right honourable gentleman (Mr. W. Pitt) surrounded by the
similar slip, and must even feel thankful to me for the coun-
early objects of his political, nay his hereditary hatred, and
sel I thus take the liberty to give him.
hear him revile the coalition, I am lost in the astonishment
An honourable gentlemen under the gallery, (Mr. Martin,)
how men can he so blind to their own situation, as to at-
to whom an abuse of the coalition seems a sort of luxury,
tempt to wound us in this particular point, possessed as we arc
wishes that a starling were at the right hand of the chair to
of the power of returning the same blow, with the vulnerable
cry out " disgraceful coalition !" Sir, upon this subject I
part staring us directly in the face. If the honourable gentle-
shall say but a few words. The calamitous situation of this
man under the gallery wishes that a starling were perched upon
country required an administration whose stability could give
the right hand of the chair, I tell him, that the wish is just
it a tone of firmness with foreign 'nations, and promise
as reasonable, to have another starling upon the left hand of
some hope of restoring the faded glories of the country.
the chair, to chirp up coalition against coalition, and to har-
Such an administration could not be formed without some
monize their mutual disgrace, if disgrace there be.
junction of parties; and if former differences were to be an
With the same consistency, an honourable gentleman calls
insurmountable barrier to union, no chance of salvation re-
us deserters — Us ! A few cold and disaffected members fall
mained for the country; as it is well known, that four pub-
off, then turn about, and, to palliate their own defection,
lic men could not be found, who had not, at one time or
call the body of the army deserters ! 'We have not de-
other, taken opposite sides in politics. The great cause of
. serted ; here we are a firm phalanx. Deserted, indeed, we
difference between us and the noble lord in the blue ribbon no
have been in the moment of disaster, but never dejected, and
longer existed; his personal character stood high ; and think-
seldom complaining. Some of those who rose upon our
ing it safer to trust him than those who had before deceived
wreck, and who eagerly grasped that power which we had
us, we preferred to unite with the noble lord. A similar
the labour of erecting, now call us deserters. We retort
the term with just indignation. Yet whilst they presume we
Mr. Pitt, in the course of his speech, had alluded to the duel between
Mr. Fox and Mr. Adam See Vol. p. zoo.
;'`-- Mr. Jenkinson sat near Mr. Pitt, Mr. Dundas, &c,
I783°3Iit.TOYS EAST INDIA BILLS.
25 5
54
Ant. fox.% LAST INDIA BILLS.
[Dec. T.
we have the attributes of men, they would expect us to have
the heir of the Marquis of Rockingham,—th=e only com-
in
the obduracy of savages. They would have our resentments
pensation that we can have for his loss.
insatiate, our rancour eternal. In our opinion, an oblivion
An honourable gentleman (Mr. Thomas Pitt) has :used
of useless animosity is nuch more noble; and in that, the
-.ielent terms against this bill, and the movers of it. Sir, I
,condnet of our accusers goes hand in hand with us. But .1
tell that honourable gentleman (looking directly in the face
beg of the House, and I wish the world to observe, that al-
of Mr. T. Pitt) that the movers of this bill are not to be
though, like them, we have abandoned our enmities, we have
brow-beaten by studied .gesture, nor frightened by tremulous
not, like them, relinquished our friendships; but there are a
tones, solemn phrases, or hard epithets. To arguments they
set amen, who, from the mere vanity of leaving consequence
are ready to reply ; but all the notice they can take-of asser-
as decisive voters, object to all stable government; these men
tions, is to mark to -the House, that they are only assertions.
hate to see an administration so fixed, as not to be moveable
The honourable gentleman again repeats his favourite language
by their vote. They assume their dignity on Ahe mere
of our having " seized upon the government;" his majesty
negative merit of not accepting places, and dU the pride of
changed his ministry last April, in consequence of a vote of
this self-denial, and the vanity of fimcied independence, they
this House; his majesty did the same twelve months before,
object to every system ,that has a solid basis, because their con-
in consequence of a vote of this House. His majesty in so
sequence is unfelt. .OX such men I cannot be the panegyrist,
doing followed the example of his predecessors; and his suc-
and I am sorry that some such men are among the most estie
cessors I doubt not, follow the example of his majesty.
mable in this House.
The votes of parliament have always .decided upon the dura-
tion of ministry, and always will, I trust. It is the nature
• An honourable gentleman advises me for the future, not
to mention the name of the Marquis of Rockingham, who, he
of our •constitution; and those who dislike it, had better at-
says, would never .countenance a bill of this kind. This is
tempt to alter it. The honourable gentleman called the
indeed imposing had conditions wen those who have wil,
change in 1782 a glorious one; this in 17-83 a disgraceful one.
Jingly wife-red a sort of political .martyrdom in the cause of
Why ? For a very obvious, though a very bad reason. The
that noble lord's principles, those who surrendered .pomp and
right honourable gentleman assisted in effecting the first, and
power, rather than remain where his principles ceased to be
strenuously laboured to prevent the second. The first battle
titshionable, and were withering .into contempt. I venerate
he fought with us ; the second against us, and we vanquished
the name of that noble marquis, and shall ever mention it
him. In 1782 his friends were out, and would be in. In
with love .and reverence; but at no period of my life with
178 3 his friends were in, nor would go out. Thus having
• wee .confidence than et this moment, when I •say, that his
clone without him what we once did with him, the House
soul speaks in every Atte of the bill before you, for his soul
sees his motive. It is human nature; but certainly not the
speaks in every measure of virtue, wisdom, humane po-
better part or human nature. He says he is BO party man,
licy, .general justice, and national honour. The name of the
and he abhors a systematic opposition. I have always ac-
noble lord who enjoys his fortune, has been mentioned this
knowledged myself •to be a party man ; I have always acted
debate, and will be mentioned again by Inc.; I will tell the
with a party in whose principles I have confidence, and if
.honourable gentlemen, that ,tehis imble lord, (Fare
had such an opinion •of any ministry as the right honourable
though not the issue of his.loins, *halts, with his property,
gentleman professes to have of us, I would pursue their over-
the ;principles of that noble marquis in all their purity and
throw by a systematic opposition. I have done so more than
soundness; and is as incapable as that noble marquis himself
Once, and I think that, in succeeding, I saved my country.
ewes, or as any man on earth is, of countenancing any act
Once the right honourable gentleman, as I have said, was
which either immediate!: or ultimately tends to theprejudice
with me, and then our conduct was fair, manly, constitutional,
.of ,his country, or the .injury of the constitution. I :haye
and honourable ! The next time he was against me, and our
.144c1
ithe honour of knowing the noble earl from an.early age.
Conduct was violent and unconstitutional, 'it was treasonable,
X
have. observed the motives of his actions,, I am endeared -t9
end yet the means were in both instances the same, the means
him by every tie of kindred sentiment, and of . mutual prin-
were the votes of this House.
ciple. A character more dignified and exalted exists not in
A game of a two-fold quality is playing :by the other side
the empire; nor a mind more firmly attached to the con-
of the House upon this occasion, to which hope the House,
stitution of his country : he is, what the nation would desire
and the kingdom, will attend. They are endeavouring to
5
256
MR. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS.
[Dec. T.
MR. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS.
78 .3*]
2 5 7
injure us through two channels at the same time, th, roug
condu ct demonstrates that he thinks those the surest path for
certain great quarter, and through the people. a
his friends. This bill, as a ground of contention, is farcical;
attempting to alarm the first, by asserting that this bill in-
this bill, if it admitted it, would be combated upon its in-
creases the influence of ministry against the crown ; and roils,
trinsic qualities, and not by abusing the coalition, or raising
ing the people, under an idea that it increases the influence
a clamour about influence: but why do not the gentlemen
of the crown against them. That they will fail in both I
speak out fairly, as we do ; and then let the world judge be-
doubt not. In the great quarter I trust they are well under-
tween us? Our love and loyalty to the sovereign are as ar-
stood, and the princely mind of that high person is a secu-
dent and firm as their own. Yet the broad basis of public
rity against their devices: they are running swiftly to take off
character, upon which we received, is the principle by which
whatever little imposition might have been put upon any part,
we hope to retain this power; convinced as we are that the
even of the multitude. And I wish to rescue the character
surest road to the favour of the prince, is by serving him
of the public understanding from the contemptuous implica-
with /zeal and fidelity; that the safest path to popularity, is
tion, that it is capable of being gulled by such artifices. I
by reducing the burden, and restoring the glory of the na-
feel for my country's honour when I say, that Englishmen,
tion. Let those [looking at Mr. Jenkinsonj who aim at office
free themselves, and fond of giving freedom to others, disdain
by other means, by inscrutable and mysterious methods,
these stratagems, and are equally above the silliness of cre-
speak out ; or, if they will not, let the world know it is be-
diting the revilers of this act, as above the baseness of con-
cause their arts will not bear examination, and that their
federating or making common cause with those who would
safety consists in their obscurity. Our principles arc well
support a system which has dishonoured this country, and
known; and I would rather perish with them, than prosper
which keeps thirty millions of the human race in wretched-
with any other.
ness. I make allowances for the hair-brained headstrong de-
The honourable gentleman under the gallery (Mr. Martin)
lusions of folly and ignorance, and the effects of design. To
also says, le dislikes systematic opposition. IVhether per-
such evils every measure is liable, and every man must ex-
petually rising up with peevish, capricious objections to every
pect a portion of the consequence. But for the serious and
thing proposed by us, deserve that name or not, I leave the
grave determinations of the public judgment I have the
gentleman himself to determine, and the House to reflect
highest value ; I ever had, and ever shall have. If it be a
upon that kind of conduct which condemns the theory of its
weakness, I confess it, that to lose the good opinion of even
own constant practice; but I meet the gentleman directly
the meanest man, gives me some pain ; and whatever triumph
upon the principle of the term. He dislikes systematic op-
my enemies can derive from such a frame of mind, they are
position; now, I like it. A systematic opposition to a dan-
welcome to. I do not, after the example of the honourable.
gerous government is, in. my opinion, a noble employment
gentleman who began this debate, hold the opinion of con.
for the brightest faculties; and if the honourable gentleman
stithents in disparagement. The clear and decided opinion
thinks our administration a bad one, he is right to contribute
of the more reasonable and respectable should, in my mind,
to its downfal. Opposition is natural in such a political sys-
weigh with the member upon the same principle, that I think
tem as ours; it has subsisted in all such governments; and
the voice of the nation should prevail in this House, and in
perhaps it is necessary. But to those who oppose it, it is ex-
every other place. But when the representative yields to the
tremely essential that their manner of conducting it should
constituent, it should indeed be by the majority of the rea-
not incur a suspicion of their motives. If they appear to
sortable and respectable, and not, as we shall see in a day or
oppose from disappointment, from mortification, from pique,
two, some of the honestest men in England voting against
from whim, the people will be against them. If they oppose
the most popular tax ever introduced into this House, in di-
from public principle, from love of their country rather than
rect opposition to their own conviction, and not upon the
hatred to administration, from evident conviction of the bad-
opinion of either the more respectable or reasonable class of
11
. ess of measures, and a full persuasion that in their resistance
their constituents.
to men, they are aiming at the public welfare, the people will.
e
My noble friend, (Lord John Cavendish,) with his charac-
be with them. We opposed upon these principles, and the
teristic spirit, has said, that we never sought power by cabal
People were with us; if we are opposed upon other prin-
or intrigue, or under-hand operations.; and this he said in
ciples, they will not be against us. Much labour has been
e
reply to an honourable gentleman, (Mr. Thomas Pitt,) whose
mployed to infuse a prejudice upon the present subject; and
2 8
MR. Fox's EAST INDIA BILLS..
[Dec.. r.
1 7 8 3']
MR. FOX'S LAST INDIA BILLS.
259
I have the satisfaction to believe, that the labour has been
hereditary fortunes and hereditary honours, deem me worthy
fruitless; making, however, a reasonable exception for the
of their confidence. With such men T. am something—
Mistakes of the uninformed,. the first impressions of novelty,
without them, nothing. My reliance is upon their good opi-
and the natural result of deliberate malice. We desire to be
nion; and in that respect, perhaps, I am fortunate. Although
tried by the test of this bill, and risk our character upon the
I have a just confidence in my own integrity, yet as I am
issue; confiding thoroughly in the good sense, the justice,
but man, perhaps it is well that I have no choice but between
and the spirit of Englishmen. Not lofty sounds, nor se-
my own eternal disgrace and a faithful discharge of my public
lected epithets, nor passionate declamation in this House,
duty. Whilst these kind of men are overseers of my conduct,
nor all the sordid efforts of interested men out of this House
whilst men whose uprightness of heart and spotless honour
—of men whose acts in the East have branded the British
are even p roverbial in the country [looking at Lord John
name, and whose ill-gotten opulence is working through a
Cavenclishj are the watchmen of my deeds, it is a pledge to the
thousand channels to delude and debauch the public under-
public for the purity and rectitude of my conduct. The
standing—can fasten odium upon this measure, or draw down
prosperity and honour of the country are blended with the
obloquy upon the authors of it. We have been tried in the
prosperity and honour of these illustrious persons. They
cause of the public; and until we desert that cause, we are
have so much at stake, that if the country falls, they fall with
assured of public confidence and protection.
it; and to countenance any thing against its interest, would
The honourable gentleman (Mr. Powys) has supposed for
be a suicide upon themselves. The good opinion and pro-
me a soliloquy, and has put into my mouth some things
tection of these men is a security to the nation for my beha-
which I do not think are likely to be attributed to me: he
viour, because if I lose them, I lose my all.
insinuates that' I was incited by avarice, or ambition, or party
Having said thus much upon the extraneous subjects intro-
spirit. I have failings in common with every human being,
duced by the honourable gentleman into the debate, I shall
beside my own peculiar faults: but of avarice I have indeed
proceed to make some observations upon the business in ques-
held myself guiltless. My abuse has been, for many years,
tion. When the learned gentleman brought in his bill last
even the profession of several people ; it was their traffic, their
year, the House saw its frightful features with just horror ;
livelihood; yet until this moment I knew not that avarice was
but a very good method was adopted to soften the terrors of
in the catalogue of the sins imputed to me. Ambition I
the extravagant power that bill vested in the governor-gene-
confess I have, but not ambition upon a narrow bottom, or
ral. The name of a noble lord (Cornwallis) was sent forth
built upon paltry principles. If, from the devotion of my
at the same time, whose great character lent a grace to a
life to political objects, if from the direction of my industry
proposition, which, destitute of such an advantage, could not
to the attainment of some knowledge of the constitution, and
be listened to for• one moment. Now, Sir, observe how dif-
the true interests of the British empire, the ambition of taking
ferently we have acted upon the same occasion. Earl Fitz-
no mean part in those acts that elevate nations and make a
william has been spoken of here this day, in those terms of
people happy, be criminal, that ambition I acknowledge.
admiration with which his name is always mentioned. Take
And as to party spirit—that I feel it, that I have been
notice, however, that we did not avail • ourselves of the fame
ever under its impulse, and that I ever shall, is what I pro-
of his virtue and abilities in passing this bill through the
claim to the world. That I am . one of a party, a party never
House. If such a thing were to have taken place as the insti-
known to sacrifice the interests, or barter the liberties of the
tution of an Indian secretaryship, (according to the suggestions
nation for mercenary purposes, for personal emolument or
of some gentlemen) this noble lord would certainly have
honours; a party linked together upon principles which com-
been the very person whom, for my part, I should have ad-
prehend whatever is clear and most precious to free men, and
. .yised his majesty to invest with that office. Yet, although
essential to a free constitution, is my pride and my boast.
his erect mind and spotless honour would have held forth to
The honourable gentleman has made one assertion, which
the public the fullest confidence of a faithful execution of its .
it is my pride to confirm : he says that I am connected with
duties, the objections in regard to influence upon a remove-
a number of the first families in the countr y. Yes, Sir, I
able officer, are tenfold in comparison with the present scheme,
have a peculiar glory that a body of men renowned for their
The House must now see, that with all the benefits we might
ancestry, important for their possessions, distinguished fro'.
derive from that noble lord's character,that although his
their personal worth, with all that is valuable to men at stake,
name would have imparted a sanctity, an ornament, and an
S 2
260
MR. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS.
[Dec. I.
1783.]
MR. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS.
261
honour to the bill, we ushered it in without that ceremony,
gerous than any influence that is likely to spring from a plan
to stand or fall by its own intrinsic merits, neither shielding
of government so constituted as the one proposed—whether
it under the reputation, nor gracing it under the mantle, of
the operation of such a mass of wealth be considered in its
any man's virtue. Our merit will be more in this, when the
probable effects, upon the principles of. the members of this
names of those are known whom we mean to propose to the
Nouse, or the manners of the people at large, more especially
House, to execute this commission. [Name them, said Mr.
when a reflection that Orientalists are in general the most
Arden, across the House.] I will not—I will not name
exemplary class of people in their morals, and in their de-
them ; the bill shall stand or hill by its own merits, Without
portment the most moderate, and corresponding with the dis-
aid or injury from their character. An honourable gentle-
tinction of their high birth and family, furnishes a very reason-
man has said that these commissioners will be made up of our
able presumption, that the expenditure of their money will be
" adherents and creatures." Sir, there is nothing more easy
much about as honourable as its acquirement.
than to use disparaging terms; yet I should have thought the
I shall now, Sir, conclude my speech with a few words up-
name of Earl Fitzwilliam would have given a fair presump-
on the opinion of the right honourable gentleman (Mr. Pitt).
tion that the colleagues we shall recommend to this House for
He says, he will stake his character upon the danger of this
the co-execution of this business with that noble Lord, will
bill. I meet him in his own phrase, and oppose him, charac-
not be of a description to merit these unhandsome epithets.
ter to character ; I risk my all upon the excellence of this bill;
I assure the honourable gentleman they are not. I assure
I risk upon it whatever is most dear to me, whatever men most
him they are not men whose faculties of corrupting, or whose
value, the character of integrity, of talents, of honour, of pre-
corruptibility, will give any alarm to this House, or to the
sent reputation and future fame; these, and whatever else is
country ; they are men whose private and public characters
precious to me, I stake upon the constitutional safety, the en-
stand high and untainted ; who are not likely to countenance
larged policy, the equity, and the wisdom of this measure, and
depredation, or participate in the spoils of rapacity. They are
have no fear in saying, (whatever may be the fate of its au-
not men to screen delinquency, or to pollute the service by
thors) that this bill will produce to this country every blessing
disgraceful appointments. Would such men as Earl Fitz-
of commerce and revenue; and that by extending a generous
william suffer unbecoming appointments to be made? Is Earl
and humane government over those millions whom the inscru-
Fitzwilliam a man likely to do the dirty work of a minister?
table destinations of Providence have placed under us in the
If they, for instance, were to nominate a Paul Bonfield to go
remotest regions of the earth, it will consecrate the name of
to India in the Supreme Council, would Earl Fitzwilliam
England amongst the noblest of nations.
subscribe to his appointment? This is the benefit of having a
Mr. Fox then recapitulated the heads of his speech, and
commission of high honour, chary of reputation, noble and
sat down. He was upon his legs about an hour and a hall:
pure in their sentiments, superior to the little jobs and traffic
of political intrigue.
At four o'clock in the morning the House divided on the ques-
But this bill, Sir, presumes not upon the probity of the
tion , that the Speaker do leave the chair :
men ; it looks to the future possibility of dissimilar successors,
Tellers.
' Tellers.
and to the morality of the present commissioners, who are
t Mr. Eden 1
Lord Mahon
merely human, and therefore not incapable of alteration.
YEA S
Mr. Sheridan S 2 7. — NT ES
° - { Mr. Arden } 103.
Under all the caution of this bill, with the responsibility it
So it was resolved in the affirmative.
imposes, I will take upon me to say, that if the aggregate
bcdy of this Board determined to use all its power for the-
December 8.
, purpose of corruption, this JIouse, and the people at large,
would have less to dread from them, in the way of influence,
On the 3rd of December the bill was committed, and the per-
than from a few Asiatics who will probably be displaced in
sons nominated to be commissioners or directors were, the Earl
Fitzwilliam, Mr. Frederick Montagu, Lord Lewisham, Mr. George
consequence of this arrangement, some of whom will return
Augustus North, Sir Gilbert Elliott, Sir Henry Fletcher, and Mr.
to this country with a million, some with seven hundred
Gregory. On the 8th, Mr. Secretary Fox moved the third read-
thousand, some with five, beside the three or four hundred
ing of the bill " for vesting the affairs of the East-India Company
thousand of others, who are cut off in their career by the
in the hands of certain commissioners for the benefit of the proprie-
hand of fate, An inundation of such wealth is fin: more dal-L-
tors and the public." This occasioned a warm debate, which lasted
I()
a3
2O2
MR. Fox's EAST INDIA BILLS.
[Dec. 8.
1783.]
MR. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS.
263
till three in the morning. In reply to the observations of Mr.
lie was not yet overthrown ; he trusted to the goodness of his
Powys, Mr. Scott, and Lord Mulgrave,
cause, and the support of his friends for success. A noble lord
(Mulgrave) had said much on the imminent danger that had been
Mr. Secretary Fox rose, not, he said, so much to remove
brought upon the state, by the accession of influence which the
the unfavourable opinions gentlemen had of his conduct as a
crown was about to receive. That noble lord, and almost every
minister, as to wipe off the infamy and reproach they had, in
other gentleman who had spoken, had deprecated that influence,
the course of that debate,. been pleased to cast upon his repu-
and at the same time had beheld with astonishment the change
tation as a man. He thought he had been very unhandsome-
of principles which sensibly appeared in him Mr. Fox)
ly treated. It was nut enough that gentlemen had allowed.
in all his late proceedings; but he could easily satisfy them, if
him no goodness, no virtue, no merit whatever; they had as4
they would be satisfied, of the groundless nature of their fears
cribed to him many positive defects, and had expressed their
in the first instance, and of their deception in the other. The
malice, for he would call it nothing but malice, with all the
influence they so much dreaded, was not an influence that would
virulence and all the malignity which fancy could invent.
revert to the crown ; it might revert to the crown ; that was
There was one circumstance of elimination which he took •ex-
not impossible; but it was more likely to return to the inde-
ceedingly ill. An honourable gentleman (Mr. Powys) had
pendent members of that House; to those very members, with
charged him with a species of delinquency which touched his
grasping at whose indisputable rights, he was now accused
feelings more than any other, because the only principle from
but falsely accused. Respecting the change of my principles,
which it conk! flow, was a principle the most opposite of all
said Mr. Fox, I declare, that I am sensible of no such change;
others to those by which he was actuated. That honourable
none such has taken place : at this very moment I entertain
gentleman had said, that in consequence of the great majority
the same jealousies of the rights of parliament, and of the
which ministers had in that House, be had insulted the weaker
people; and I watch with the same circumspection that ever I
party—in his own words, or something like his own words,.
did, every degree of undue patronage or influence which the
"triumphed over the impotence of independent members." It
crown may acquire. When I went into office, the power of
was, he said, a cruel insinuation ; and it was as unjust as it was
the crown had been diminished : the different powers in the
cruel. It supposed him guilty of a crime which he never was.
state were pretty equally poised ; that was a state I wished to
capable of conceiving; and it plainly declared, that all his pro-
see them in, and it is a state that they shall always continue in,
fessions of candour, of disinterestedness, and of attachment to
if my best exertions can effect that desirable object. With re-
the sacred rights of mankind, were nothing but words, delusive
gard to the bankruptcy of the state, the learned gentleman
words, framed for some other purpose. He desired that ti*
(Mr. Scow who has said so much, has told us that the state-
honourable gentleman who had spoken of him with so much free*
ment of another learned gentleman, who is now absent, was
dom, might be assured that no expressions that ever had fallen
such and such, and that he had advanced such stubborn facts
from him, were ever meant to apply to him. He did not know
that nothing could resist them. Is it fair thus to combat one
that he had ever said any thing personal; if he had, it was
with the opinions of a man who is not here to give his reasons?
aimed at those self-important members, who were so fond of
But this is the way, the unfair way, in which I am attacked ;
their own conceits, and who thought every thing they uttered
every gentleman on the opposite side of the House has set his
should be received as a law. He was not certain that he had
terrors in array before me; but I am not to be terrified. I
not some time or other spoken with that intention; but to
understand their terror; and I give it its proper appellation, it
blame the honourable gentleman, who seemed so much cha-
is nothing but envenomed malice,
grined, would have been among the last things that would have
Mr. Fox then observed, that his bill had been violently op-
struck him. His virtue, his patriotism, his commendable zeal,
. posed in all its stages ; but it stood on so secure a basis, and,
all conspired to forbid any such impeachment.
what some gentleman might wonder to hear him say, it was so
Mr. Fox here observed, that gentlemen had that night dis-
Popular, that he was not afraid to trust its issue to the decision
covered uncommon warmth in the cause they were engaged in.
of the public. It had been absurdly said, that the present
They had been very earnest to thwart and oppose his wishes.
bills both increased and decrease:, the power of the crown. In
They had also shewn skill in their mode of attack on him :
God's name, said he, what power or influence does my bill
they had placed a learned and eloquent member (Mr. Scott)
take from the crown that it possessed before ? Or what power
in front; and he had certainly acquitted himself ably. But
does it add which it did not possess before? The bill takes no
.8 4
264
MR. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS.
[Dec. 17.
1783.]
MR. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS.
265-
influence from the crown; but it adds a good deal to parlia-
in the closet for that purpose, his disapprobation of the India bill,
ment ; and if it be doubtful in any of its tendencies, it is the
and authorized him to declare the same to such persons as he might
duty of parliament to examine it carefiffly, and to try to cor-
think fit ; that a written note was put into his hands, in which his
rect its defects. The right honourable secretary concluded
majesty declared " That he should deem those who should vote
for it not only not his friends, but his enemies ; and that if he
with asserting the rights of the independent members; and
(Lord Temple) could put this in stronger words, he had full au-
with declaring, that to deprive them of any of those rights
thority to do so." And, lastly, that in consequence of this au-
would be the last act of which he was capable.
thority, communications had been made to the same purport to
several peers in the upper house ; and particularly to those whose
The other speakers in support of' the motion were, Mr. Nichols,
offices obliged them to attend the king's person. Some extraor-
Mr. John Luttrell, General Burgoyne, Mr. Anstruther, Mr. Adam,
dinary circumstances, which happened on the isth of December,
Mr. Erskine, the Attorney-General, Mr. Rigby, Mr. Sheridan,
the day of the second reading of the bill confirmed the probability
and Mr. Courtenay. The speakers against the motion were Mr.
of the truth of these reports. Several lords, who had entrusted
Hamilton, Mr. Wilkes, Mr. W. Grenville, Mr.Martin, Sir Richard
their proxies to the minister and his friends, withdrew them only
Hill, Mr. W. Pitt, Mr. Arden, Mr. Wilberforce, Mr Jenkinson,
a few hours before the house met ; and others, whose support he
Mr. Dundas, Sir Cecil Wray, Sir Watkin Lewes, Mr. Alderman
had every reason to expect, gave their votes on the side of opposi-
Townshend, Mr. Alderman Sawbridge, and Mr. Flood. On a divi-
tion. On the division, which took place upon a question of ad-
sion the numbers were
journment, the ministers were left in a minority of 79 to 87. The
, Tellers.
Tellers.
same day the House of Commons, on the motion of Mr. Baker,
I
YEAS Lord Maitland
}
VIr. Powys
1 2
took into consideration the reports above alluded to. He stated,
208—NOES
.
*
Mr. Burke
Sir George Yonge
'
shortly, that the public notoriety, both of the fact itself and of the
The bill was then read a third time and passed ; and on the fol-
effects it had produced, called on the house, which was the natu-
lowing day Mr. Fox, attended by a great number of members pre-
ral guardian of the constitution, for their immediate interference.
sented it at the bar of the House of Lords.
He divided the criminality of the subject matt3r of the report into
two parts ; first, the giving secret advice to the crown ; and, se-
December 7.
condly, the use that had been made of his majesty's name, for the
Up to the period of the preceding debate, no symptoms
purpose of influencing the votes of members of parliament in a mat-
had appeared, at least to the public eye, that indicated the ap-
ter depending before them. The first, he contended, was a direct
proaching fate both of the bill and its authors. Great pains, in-
and dangerous attack upon the constitution. The law declared
deed, were taken, and with considerable success, by an almost
that { the King could do no wrong :' and therefore had wisely made
incredible circulation of pamphlets and political engravings, to in-
his ministers amenable for all the measures of his government.
flame the nation against the measures and the persons of adminis-
This was of the very essence of the constitution, which could no
tration ; and it. was also remarked, that in the House of Commons,
longer subsist, if persons unknown, and upon whom, consequently,
several of that description of members, well known by the name of
no responsibility could attach, were allowed to give secret advice
king's friends, gave their votes on the side of opposition. But it
to the crown. With regard to the second, Mr. Baker proved, from
was generally imagined, that as, on the one hand, the ministry
z,
the journals, that to make any reference to the opinion of the
was too strong to be shook by the breath of popular clamour, so
king, on a bill depending in either house, had always been judged
on the other, it seemed to the last degree improbable that they
a high breach of the privileges of parliament ; he therefore con-
should have adopted a measure of such infinite importance, either
cluded with moving, " That it is now necessary to declare, that
without knowing, or contrary to the inclinations of the king. Oa
to report any opinion, or pretended opinion, of his majesty, upon
the first reading of the bill in the House of Lords, Earl Temple,
any bill or other proceeding, depending in either house of parlia-
Lord Thurlow, and the Duke of Richmond, expressed their ab-
ment, with a view to influence the votes of the members, is a high
horrence of the measure in the strongest and most unqualified
crime and misdemeanor, derogatory to the honour of the crown,
terms. A brilliant panegyric on Mr. Hastings was pronounced by
a breach of the fundamental privileges of parliament, and subversive
Lord Thurlow, and the flourishing state of the company's affairs
to the constitution of this country." The motion was seconded by
insisted on. After a short debate relative to the production of
Lord Maitland, and strongly opposed by Mr. William Pitt, who
papers, on which the lords in opposition did not choose to divide
urged the impropriety of proceeding on mere unauthenticated ru-
the house, the second reading was fixed for Monday, December
mours ; alledging, at the same time, that if such rumours were
i5 th. In the mean time, various rumours began to circulate, re-
Judged a proper foundation for the house to proceed upon, there
lative to some extraordinary motions in the interior of the court.
were rumours circulated with equal industry, in which the same
It was confidently affirmed, that on the r i th of December the king
use was made of his majesty's name in favour of the bill, that had
signified to the Earl Temple, who had been ordered,to attend him
been so much condemned when supposed to have been used in op.
266
MR. PDX'S EAST INDIA BILLS.
[Dec.
MR. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS.
1783.1
267
position to it. With respect to the effects which had been adduced
all its legal and constitutional powers, but in the instant of
as a proof of the truth of the report, if they referred to a late divi-
their danger? The disease, Sir, is come to a crisis; and now
sion in the other house, he thought the premises did not warrant
is the juncture which destines the patient to live or die. We
the conclusion, as it was no very unusual thing for the lords to re-
are called to sanctify or oppose an absolute extinction of all
ject a bill that had been passed by the commons, without the small-
for which our ancestors struggled and expired. We are
est suspicion of undue influence. With respect to the criminality
called to protect
of the filets which were the subject of these reports, he denied that
and defend, not only the stipulated franchises
it was criminal in any of the peers, who were the acknowledged
of Englishmen, but the sacred privileges of humanity. We
hereditary counsellors of the crown, to give his advice to the king
arc called to protract the ruin of the constitution. The de-
in any case whatever ; and as to the breach of the privileges of par-
liberations of this night must decide whether we are to be
liament, he contended, that the precedents which had been read
freemen or slaves ; whether the House of Commons be the
from the journals, though selected from the glorious times of King
palladium of liberty, or the organ of despotism ; whether we
Charles I. were in nowise applicable to the present case. Mr. Pitt
are henceforth to possess a voice of our own, or to be only
concluded his speech with reproaching the ministers for their base
the mere mechanical echo of secret influence. Is there an in-
attachment to their offices, though, upon their own state of the
case, they had lost their power, and no longer professed the confi-
dividual, who feels for his own honour, callous to an appre-
hension
dence of their prince.
of such a consequence as this? Does not every regard
which he owes to a body who cannot be degraded without his
Mr. Secretary Fox spoke to the following effect:
disgrace, who cannot expire without involving his fate, rouse
I did not intend, Sir, to have said any thing in addition to
his indignation, and excite him to every exertion, both in his
what has been already urged so ably in favour of the resolu-
individual and delegated capacity, which can reprobate, sus-
tion now agitated. In my own opinion, its propriety and ne-
pend, or destroy a practice so inimical to public prosperity,
cessity, are compleatly and substantially established. A few
as well as hostile to the very existence of this House ?
particulars, suggested in the course of the debate by gentle-
But what is this resolution ? It has been called, with great
men on the other side of the house, may be thought, however,
technical acuteness, a truism, which seems as incapable of
to merit some animadversion. And, once for all, let no man
discussion as it is of proof. The foundation of it, however,
complain of strong language. Things are now arrived at
is a matter of such general and palpable notoriety, as to put
such a crisis as renders it impossible to speak without warmth.
every degree of scepticism to defiance. Rumours of a most
Delicacy and reserve are criminal where the interests of Eng-
extraordinary nature have been desseminated in no common
lishmen are at hazard. The various points in dispute strike
way, and by no inferior agents. A noble earl is said to have
to the heart; and it were unmanly and pusillanimous to wrap
used the name of majesty with the obvious and express inten-
up in smooth and deceitful colours, objects which, in their
tion of affecting the decisions of the legislature concerning a
nature and consequences, arc calculated to fill the House and
hill, of infinite consequence to thirty millions of people, pend-
the country with a mixture of indignation and horror.
ing in parliament. The nature of this debate will not allow
This, at least, has made such an impression on my mind,
me to avoid the mention °filmes. The reality of reports cir-
that I never felt so much anxiety ; I never addressed this
culating, and operating to a certain degree, is equally ad-
House under such a pressure of impending mischief; I never
mitted on all sides of the house. The arguments urged to
trembled so much for public liberty as I now do. The ques-
defeat the use which is made of this fact by the resolution
tion before the House involves the rights of parliament in all
under discussion, are far from contradicting its veracity. No:
their consequences and extent. These rights are the basis of
its validity is supposed; the consequences only, which we im-
our constitution, and form the spirit of whatever discrimi-
pute to that circumstance, are disputed. No man has yet
nates the government of a free country. And have not these
ventured, or dares to venture, to stand forth, and say, in so
been threatened and assaulted? Can they exist a moment in
many words, that it does not exist. This would certainly
opposition to such an interference as is supposed by the reso-
finish the contest much to the honour of the nobleman con-
lution, as has been stated by several honourable gentlemen,
cerned, but still more to the satisfaction of this House and
to have taken place? No: human nature is not sufficiently
the tranquillity of the public. His honourable relation, who
perfect to resist the weight of such a temptation. When,
dares the House to a specific charge, leaves that whole load
therefore, shall the House assert its dignity, its independence,
- of suspicion and crimination on the character he would
'its prerogatives, by a resolute and unequivocal declaration of
defend, unbroken, undiminished, and unequivocal. This may
PDX'S EAST INDIA BILLS.
268
MR. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS.
[Dec.
783.]
269
which it was originally instituted, I trust the characteristic
not be so much owing to a consciousness of delinquency, as a
sentiment of pride: pride is the passion of little, dark, intriguing
spirit of this country is still equal to the trial; I trust English-
minds; and nothing but the truth of the charge can, in the pre,
men will be as jealous of secret influence as superior to open vio-
sent case, be more incompatible with every principle of reed.,
lence; I trust they are not more ready to defend their interests
tulle and virtue. This rumour has been treated with a levity
against foreign depreciation and insult, than to encounter and
which amounts to a sarcasm or lampoon on the dignity of the
defeat this midnight conspiracy against the constitution.
House. But I will tell gentlemen it is not a newspaper sur-
The proposition of this evening is, therefbre, founded on a
mise, but something much stronger and more serious ; there is
fact the most extraordinary and alarming this country could
a written record to be produced. This letter (pulling it out
possibly hear; a fact, which strikes at the great bulwark of our
of his pocket) is not to be put in the balance with the lye of
liberties, and goes to an absolute annihilation, not of our char-
the day. It states, that " his majesty allowed Earl Temple to
tered rights only, but those radical and, fundamental ones
say, that whoever voted for the India bill, were not only not
which are paramount to all charters, which were consigned to
his friends, but he should consider them as his enemies.
our care by the sovereign disposition of nature; which we can-
And if these words were not strong enough, Earl Temple
not relinquish without violating the most sacred of all obliga-
might use whatever words he might deem stronger, or more
tions; to which we are entitled, not as members of society, but
to the purpose." Is this parliamentary, or is it truth?
as individuals, and as men ; the rights of adhering steadily and
Where is the man who dares to affirm the one or deny the
uniformily to the great and supreme laws of conscience and
other ? or to say, that he believes in his conscience such a
duty; of preferring, at all hazards, and without equivocation,
rumour was not calculated to produce an immediate effect?
those general and substantial interests which we have sworn
It certainly tended, in the first instance, to vilify, in the gross-
to prefer ; of acquitting ourselves honourably to our constitu-
est and most violent manner, the proceedings of parliament.
ents, to our friends, to our own minds, and to that public
It says to the public, that we are not equal to our trust; that
whose trustees we arc and for whom we act.
we either ignorantly or wilfully betray the interest of our con-
How often shall the friends of the noble earl, whom I have
stituents; and that we are not to be guided in our decisions
named, be called upon to negative the proposition, by vouching
by their convictions or our own, but by that unseen and mys-
for him his innocence of the charge? Will any of them lay
terious authority, to whom the sovereign, his counsellors and
their hand on their heart, and disavow the fact in that noble-
the legislature, are only the blind and passive instruments.
man's name ? Let them fairly, honourably and decidedly put
Both 'Houses of parliament are consequently parties in the
an end to that foul imputation which rests on his conduct, and
contest, and reduced, by this unfortunate and w:Lked advice,
the house must immediately dismiss the report as idle and ill
to the predicament of a man struggling for his life. We are
founded. But, while no man comes honestly forward and
robbed of our rights, with a menace of immediate destruction
takes truth by the hand, we must look to the consequence.
before our face. From this moment, farewel to every indepen-
This House must not lose sight of its rights and those of the
dent measure ! Whenever the liberties of the people, the rights
community. The latter can subsist no longer than the former
of private property, or the still more sacred and invaluable
are safe. We now deliberate on the life and blood of the con-
privileges of personal safety, invaded, violated, or in danger,
stitution. Give up this point, and we seal our own quietus,
are vindicated by this House, where alone they can be legally
and are accessary to our own insignificance or destruction.
and effectually redressed, the hopes of the public, anxious,
But how is the question, thus unsuccessfully put to the
eager and panting for the issue, are whispered away and for
friends and abettors of secret influence in this, answered, when
z,
ever suppressed by the breath of secret influence. A parlia-
put to the noble principal in the other House? Is he ready
ment thus fettered and controlled, without spirit and without
and eager to vindicate his own character, and rescue that of
freedom, instead of limiting, extends, substantiates, and esta-
his sovereign from so foul a reproach ? No : but he replies in
blishes beyond all precedent, latitude, or condition, the prero-
that mean, insiduous, equivocal, and temporising language,
w
gatives of the crown. But, thouah the British House of Com-
hich tends to preserve the effect without boldly and manfully
b
mons were so shamefully lost to its own weight in the constitu-
abiding by the consequences of the guilt. Such was the an-
tion, were so unmindful of its former struggles and triumphs
swer, as mysterious and ill designed as the delinquency it was
in
in the great cause of liberty and mankind, were so indifferent
tended to conceal ; and the man only, who could stoop to
and treacherous to those primary objects and concerns for
the baseness of the one, was the most likely in the world to
270
MR. Fox's EAST INDIA BILLS.
[Dec.
271
1783.3
MR. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS.
screen himself behind the duplicity of the other. What, therei
recommended by almost two to one on every division it occa-
shall we infer from -a system of acting and speaking thus guard_
sioned, will in all probability be lost.
ed and fallacious, but that the device was formed to operate
But, Sir, I beseech the House to attend to the manner in
on certain minds, as it is rumoured to have done; and that
which it is likely to meet such a fate. Is this to be effected
such a shallow and barefaced pretext could influence those
by the voice of an independent majority ? Can any man view
only, who, -without honour or consistency, are endowed with
the lords of the bedchamber in that respectable light? and
congenial understandings !
the whole fortune of the measure now depends on their de-
Had this alarming and unconstitutional interference hap-
termination. The rumour, so often stated, and alluded to,
pened in matters of no consequence, or but of inferior conse-
was calculated, and intended to answer, an immediate and
quence, the evil would not have appeared of such magnitud;;
important end. I am far from saying that it ought. Those
as it does. But let us consider the nature of the business
in high office and elevated rank, should prove themselves
which it is intended to impede or suppress. For nearly twenty
possessed of high and elevated sentiments; should join, to an
years have the affairs of the East India company, more or less,
exquisite sense of personal honour, the most perfect probity
occasionally engrossed the attention of parliament. Commit-
of heart ; should discover as much dignity and strength of
tees of this House, composed of the most able, industrious, and
understanding as may be naturally expected from a superior
upright characters, have sat long, indefatigably, and assidu-
education, the distinctions of fortune, and the example of the
ously, in calling forth, arranging, digesting, and applying
great and the wise. But how does this description agree
every species of evidence which could be found. Reports of
with their mode of managing their proxies? These they
their honest and elaborate conduct are before the House. The
cordially give in before a rumour of the King's displeasure
public feel the pressure of this monstrous and multifarious ob-
reaches their ears; .the moment this intimation is made, on
ject. Gentlemen in opposition were at least not insensible to
the same day, and within a few hours, matters appear to them
its necessity, its urgency, and its importance. An honourable
in quite a different light, and the opinion which they em-
gentleman, (Mr. W. Pitt,) who has distinguished 'rims( so
brace ill the morning, is renounced at noon. I am as ready
much on this occasion, protested very solemnly against all pal-
as any man to allow, what is barely probable, that these lords
liatives, expedients, or the abortive substitutes of radical and
might receive new convictions, which, like a miracle, ope-
complete measures. To meet that honourable gentleman's
rated effectually and at once; and that, notwithstanding their
idea, as well as to suit the exigence of the case, the present
proxies, from such a sudden and extraordinary circumstance,
bill was brought in. It has been called a rash, inconsiderate,
without hearing any debate or evidence on the subject, they
and violent measure. The House is aware discussion it
might feel an immediate and unaccountable impulse to make
has occasioned; and I dare any one to mention a single argu-
their personal appearance, and vote according to their con-
-ment brought against it which has not been candidly and fairly
sciences. Who would chuse to say that all this may not
tried, not by the weight of a majority, but by the force of plain
actually have been the case? There is certainly, however,
and explicit reasoning. No bill was ever more violently and
a very uncommon coincidence in their lordships' peculiar
systematically opposed, investigated at greater length, or by
situation and this unexpected revolution of sentiment; and,
more ability; passed the House under the sanction of a more
were I disposed to treat the matter seriously, the whole com-
respectable and independent majority, or had more the coun-
pass of language affords no terms sufficiently strong and
tenance and patronage of the country at large. How, then,
pointed to mark the contempt which I feel for their con-
did it succeed in the other House ? What was the reception
duct. It is an imprudent avowal of political profligacy; as
which, thus circumstanced, it received from their lordships?'
if that species of treachery were less infamous than any other.
Some degree of decency might have been expected from one
It is not only a degradation of a station which ought to be
branch of the legislature to another. That- respectable inde-
occupied only by the highest and most exemplary honour,
pendence which ought to be the leading feature in their deci-
but forfeits their claim to the characters of gentlemen, and
sions, is not incompatible with, but essential to such a mutual
reduces them to a level with the meanest and the basest of
deference for the procedure of each, as must be the consequence
the species : it insults the noble, the ancient, and the charac-
of acting constitutionally. The bill, however, though matured
teristic independence of the English peerage, and is calcu-
and debated by all the abilities of this House, though urged
lated to traduce and vilify the British legislature in the eyes
by the most powerful of all arguments, necessity, And though
of all Europe and to the latest posterity. By what magic
272
MR. Fox's EAST INDIA BILLS.
[Dec. 17.
1783.]
MR. Fox's
EAST INDIA BILLS.
273'
nobility can thus charm vice into virtue I know not nor wish
always prepared for the ready execution of every
to know; but in any other thing than politics, and among
secret
any other men than lords of the bedchamber, such an instance
mandate ! I remember a saying of an able statesman, whom,
of the grossest perfidy would, as it well deserves, be branded
t hough I differed with in many things, I have ever acknow-
ledged to be possessed of many eminent and useful qualities.
with infamy and execration.
The sentence I allude to I
Is there any thing, then, Sir, more plain and obvious, than,
have always admired for its
boldness and propriety. It was uttered by the
that this great, this important, this urgent measure, is be-
late George
Grenville in experiencing a similar treachery, — and
come the handle of a desperate fiction, whose principal object
would
to God the same independent and manly sentiments bad
is power and place? It is the victim not of open and fair
been inherited by all who bear the name ! —"
reasoning, but of that influence which shuns the fight and
I will never
again," said he, " be at the head of a string of janissaries,
shrinks from discussion: for those who pledged their honour
who are always ready to strangle or dispatch me on the least
in its support, from an acknowledged conviction of its rec-
signal."
titude, its propriety and utility, have broken that faith, and
Where, Sir, is that undue, that unconstitutional influence,
relinquished their own judgments, in consequence of a rumour
with which the honourable gentleman upbraids me and those
that such a conduct would be personally resented by the so-
with whom I act? Are our measures supported by any other
vereign. What bill, in the history of parliament, was ever
means than ministers . have usually employed? In what, then,
so traduced, so foully misrepresented and betrayed in its
am I the champion of influence? Of the influence of sound
passage through the different branches of the legislature?
and substantial policy, of open, minute, and laborious dis-
The stroke which must decide the contest, cannot come from
cussion, of the most respectable whig interest in the kingdom,
its real enemies but its false friends; and its fate, without
of an honourable majority in this House, of public confidence
example in the annals of this House, will be handed down
and public responsibility, I am proud to avail myself, and
to the remotest posterity, not as a trophy of victory but a
happy to think no man can bar my claim. But every sort
badge of treachery.
of influence unknown to the constitution,
Here, Sir, the honourable gentleman, with his usual libe-
as base in itself' as
it is treacherous in its consequences, which is always suc-
rality, upbraids me with monopolizing, not only all the in-
cessful because incapable of opposition, nor ever successful
fluence of the crown, the patronage of India, and the prin-
but when exerted in the dark, which, like every other mon-
ciples of whiggism, but the whole of the royal confidence:
ster of factious breed, never stalks abroad but in
but all such round, unqualified and unfounded imputations
the absence
of public principle,, never assumes any other shape than
must be contemptible, because they are not t. Le; and the
a
whisper, and never frequents any more public place of resort
bitterest enemy, not lost to every sense of manliness, would
than the back stairs or closet at St. James's, — all this secret,
scorn to become an accuser on grounds so palpably false.
intriguing, and underhand influence, I am willing and ready
It is, indeed, its it has always been, my only ambition to act
to forego. I will not even be the minister of a great and
such a part in my public conduct, as shall eventually give
free people on any condition derogatory to my honour and
the lie to every species of suspicion which those who oppose
independence as a private gentleman. Let those who have
me seem so anxious to create and circulate : and, if to
no other object than place, have it and hold it by the only
compass that by every possible exertion from which no
tenure worthy of their acceptance, — secret influence: — but
man in the sound exercise of his understanding can honestly
without the confidence of this House as well as that of the
dissent, be a crime, I plead guilty to the charge. This I
sovereign, however necessary to my circumstances and de-
am not ashamed to avow the predominating passion of my
sirable to Inv friends, the dignity and emoluments of office
life; and I will cherish it, in spite of calumny, declamation,
shall never be mine.
and intrigue, at the risk of all I value most in the world.
Is it, then, to the India bill I am indebted for, this new
But, Sir, in this monopoly of influence, the lords of the
,
appellation? Is there a single argument on this topic which
bedchamber ought at least, for the sake of decency, to have
has not been thoroughly and repeatedly discussed? But the
been excepted. These, we all know, are constantly at the
honourable gentleman has two strings to his bow : if he can-
beck of whoever is minister of the day. How often have
not blow me with the people, by demonstrating how this
they not been stigmatized with the name of the household
measureincreases the influence of the crown, he will try what
troops, who, like the Praetorian bands of ancient Rome, are
Ile can do with the crown, by exhibiting it as generating an
VOL. u.
MR. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS.
[Dec. 17.
r783.]
MR. IOX's EAST INDIA BILLS.
274
275
independence or aristocracy for the minister. His own po,
rised his name to be used with a certain view : his grace, as
pularity may go a great way in accomplishing the one, and
the only expedient left fbr preserving the minds of their
secret influence will always be adequate to the other ; and
lordships unbiassed, and the personal honour of his sovereign
by an incessant clamour against the whole of the business,
unspotted, gave a negative to the fact. A tale was propa-
fomented and propagated at the instance of a mean and in_
gated which tended equally to traduce the crown and em-
terested action, it is not unlikely he may succeed in both.
barrass government. How was he to defeat the obvious
But I must beg gentlemen to consider, that this measure,
design of such a notorious libel on the best of princes ?
which owes all its imperfections and obnoxious qualities —
Was it his duty to let it pass unnoticed, and shed undis-
not to the original text — but to the notes and-commentaries
turbed all its influence on the minds of those for whose in-
of its numerous editors and interpreters, is intended merely
struction and emolument it was originally devised ? Or had
as an experiment, subject to the cognizance and controul a
he any other mode.of averting its intention and success than
the legislature. Is there any thing here independent of the
by denying its reality? It would be hard, indeed, to debar
three estates in parliament assembled? You say it is an exe-
ministers of a right to destroy falsehoods fabricated on pur-
cutive power for which the constitution affords no prescrip-
pose to destroy them. Such a prohibition amounts to their
tion. But are you aware to what extent this argument goes?
relinquishing a very material species of self defence, which is
It deprives you, at one stroke, of all the manifold advantages
one of the most valuable privileges of human nature; and,
which result from every possible modification of colonization.
whatever the honourable gentleman may be willing to sacrifice
What system of government can be applied to any foreign
to office, this is one condition at least, to which I will never
settlement or territory whatever, which is not proscribed by
be a party.
the same reasoning? And, if this literal adherence to the
The task, therefore, he has assigned me of being the
form, in contradiction to the spirit of the constitution, is to be
champion of influence, belongs more properly to himself;
adopted, without regard 'to the many vast commercial in-
who has this night stood forward in defence of a practice,
terests which produce the most fertile resources, and form
which cannot be indulged for a moment but at the immi-
no inconsiderable share of our national strength and distinc-
nent risk of every thing great and valuable which our con-
tion, we shall soon be circumscribed within our original boun-
stitution secures. With what consistency he embarks in a
daries, and be accounted as little among the nations as ever
cause so hostile and ominous to the rights and wishes of
we were great.
Englishmen, those who have known his connections and
Conclusions, however, on such speculative theories as these
observed his professions will judge. Let him not, then, in
are as idle as unsatisfactory. We never can forget that some-
the paroxysm of party zeal, put a construction on my con-
thing must be done. I deny that any thing has yet been
duct which it will not bear, or endeavour to stamp it with
offered or tried, more congenial to the constitution, more ade-
the impression of his own. For that influence which the con-
quate to the object, or more advantageous to the community
stitution has wisely assigned to the different branches of the
at large than the bill in question. I am perfectly aware of
legislature, I ever have contended, and, I trust, ever shall.
whatever has been or can be alledged on the subject; but,
That of the crown, kept within its legal boundaries, is essen-
abstracted from the scramble of interest and the pitiful bug-.
tial to the practice of government; but woe to this country
bears of design, not one solid objection on the point of
the moment its operations are not as public and notorious
influence has yet been advanced. The novelty of the sys
as they are sensible and effective ! A great writer has said,
-tem is quite as good a foundation for predicting the best as
that the English constitution will perish, when the legislative
the worst consequences. It is rare that men are thus prone
becomes more corrupt than the executive power. Had he
to misconstrue the plainest propositions without some latent
been as sound a judge of the practice as of the theory of go-
v
purpose; and we have the same right to comment on the
ernment, he might have added, with still greater truth, that
motives on which the measure is opposed, as you have for
we shall certainly lose our liberty, when the deliberations of
p
reprobating those in which it originated.
arliament are decided — not by the legal and usual — but
Even supposing the rumours on which the resolution vi3'
by the illegal and extraordinary exertions of prerogative.
proposed were true, it is allcdged that a noble duke in the
The honourable gentleman declares, that if the king is thus
p
Other House counteracted the effect of one influence by Lo-
revented from consulting. his peers, who are constitutionally
.Other. It had been whispered that his majesty had audio'
stiled the ancient and hereditary counsellors of the crown, or
T 2
I
276
MR. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS.
[Dec. 17,
MR. rox's EAST INDIA BILLS.
;783.]
2 7 7
any other of his subjects, whenever he is pleased to call for it,
honourable part, and the country that suffers it, will be mu-
he would be a captive on his throne and the first slave in his
tual plagues and curses to each other.
own dominions. Does he, then, affect to think or allege
Thus aukwardly circumstanced, the best minister on earth
that it is the desire of ministers to proscribe all social inter-
could accomplish nothing, nor on any occasion, however press-
course between his majesty and his subjects? I will tell the
ing and momentous, exert the faculties of government with
honourable gentleman thus far his argument goes, and that is
spirit or effect. It is not in the human mind to put forth the
something worse than puerility and declamation ; it is dis-
least vigour under the impression of uncertainty. While all my •
guising truth under such colours as are calculated to render
best meant and best concerted plans are still under the control
it. odious and detestable. The lords are undoubtedly entitled'
of a villainous whisper, and the most valuable consequences,
to advise the throne collectively ; but this does not surely
which I flattered myself must have resulted from my honest
entitle every noble individual to take his majesty aside, and,
and indefatigable industry, are thus defeated by secret influence,
by a shocking farrago of fiction and fear, poison the royal
i t is impossible to continue in office any longer either with
mind with all their own monstrous chimeras. Whoever knows
honour to. myself, or success to the public. The moment I
the mode of digesting business in the cabinet, must be sensible,
bring forward a measure adequate to tile exigency of the state,
that the least interference with any thing pending in parlia-
and stake my reputation, or indeed whatever is most dear and
ment must be dangerous to the constitution. The question
interesting in life, on its merit and utility, instead of enjoying
is not, whether his majesty shall avail himself of such advice
the triumphs of having acted fairly and unequivocally, all my
as no one readily avows, but who is answerable for such advice?
labours, all my vigilance, all my expectations, so natural to
Is the honourable gentleman aware, that the responsibility of
every generous and manly exertion, are not only vilely fritter-
ministers is the only pledge and security the people of Eng-
ed, but insidiously and at once whispered away by rumours,
land possess against the infinite abuses so natural to the ex-
which, whether founded or not, are capable of doing irrepara-
ercise of this power? Once remove this great bulwark of the
ble mischief, and have their full effect before-it is possible to
constitution, and we are, in every respect, the slaves and pro-
contradict or disprove them.
perty of despotism. And is not this the necessary consequence
So much has been said about the captivity of the throne,
of secret influence?
while his majesty acts only in concert with his ministers, that
How, Sir, are ministers situated on this ground ? Do they
one would imagine the spirit and soul of the British constitu-
not come into power with a halter about their necks, by which
tion were yet unknown in this House. It is wisely established
the most contemptible wretch in the kingdom may dispatch
as a fUndamental maxim, that the king can do no wrong; that
them at pleasure? Yes, they hold their several offleesnot at
whatever blunders or even crimes may be chargeable on the
the option of the sovereign—but of the very reptiles who bur-
executive power, the crown is still faultless. But how ? Not
row under the throne. They act the part of puppets, and arc
by suffering tyranny and oppression in a free government
answerable for all the folly, the ignorance, and the temerity or
to pass with impunity ; certainly not : but the minister who
timidity of some unknown juggler behind the screen : they
advises or executes an unconstitutional measure, does it at his
are not once allowed to consult their own, but to pay an im-
peril ; and he ought to know, that Englishmen are not only
plicit homage to the understandings of those, whom to know-
jealous of their rights, but legally possessed of powers, compe-
were to despise. The only rule by which they are destined to
tent on every such emergency to redress their wrongs. "What
extend authority over freemen, is a secret mandate which car-
is the distinction between an absolute and a limited monarchy?
ries along with it no other alternative than obedience —or
but that the sovereign, in the one, is a despot; and may do
ruin ! 'What man, who has the feelings, the honour, the spirit,
what he pleases, but in the other, is himself subjected to the
or the heart of a man, would stoop to such a condition for any
laws, and consequently-not at liberty to advise with any one on.
official dignity or emolument whatever? Boys, without judg-
Public affairs not responsible for that advice; and the consti-
ment, experience of the sentiments suggested by the knowledge
tution has clearly directed his negative to operate under the
of the world, or the amiable decencies of a sound mind, may
same wise restrictions. These prerogatives are by no means
follow the headlong course of ambition thus precipitantly, and
vested in the crown to be exerted in a wanton and arbitrary
vault into the seat while the reins of government are placed in
manner. The good of the whole is tile exclusive object to
other hands : but the minister who can bear to act such a dis-
which all tile branches of the legislature and their different
Powers invariably . point. Whoever interferes with this pri-
T 3
278
MR. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS.
MR. PDX'S EAST INDIA BILLS.
[Dee. 17.
1783.]
279
mary and supreme direction,
and, whatever entrenchments have been made on the crown,
must, in the highest degree, be
unconstitutional. Should, therefore, his maj esty be disposed
we are ready to repair : take back those numerous and tried
to check the progress of the legislature in accomplishing any
dependants who so often secured you a majority in parliament ;
measure of importance, either by giving countenance to an
we submit to all the mischief' which even this accession of
invidious whisper, or the exertion of his negative, without at
strength is likely to produce ; but for God's sake strangle us
the same time consulting the safety of his ministers, here would
not in the very moment we look for success and triumph by an
be an instance of mar-administration, for which, on that sup..
infamous string of bedchamber janissari es !
position, the constitution has provided no remedy. And God
The honourable gentleman has told us, with his usual con-
forbid that ever the constitution of this country should be found
sequence and triumph, that our duty, circumstanced as we are,
defective in a point so material and indispensable to public
can be attended with no difficulty whatever : the moment the
welfare!
sovereign withdraws his confidence, it becomes us to retire.
sir, it is a public and crying grievance that we are not
I will answer him in my turn, that the whole system in this dis-
the first who have felt this secret influence. It seems to be
honourable business may easily be traced. Aware of that glo-
a habit against which no change of men or measures can ope-
rious and independant majority which added so much dignity
rate with success. It has overturned a more able and popular
and support to the measure which appears thus formidable to
minister (Lord Chatham) than the present, and bribed him
secret influence, they find all their efforts to oppose it here
with a peerage, for which his best friends never cordially for-
abortive : the private cabal is .consequently convened, and an
gave him. The scenes, the times, the politics, and the system
invasion of the throne, as most susceptible of their operations,
of the court, may shift with the party that predominates, but
proposed. It was natural to expect that I, for one, would not
this dark mysterious engine is not only formed to control every
be backward to spurn at such an interference. This circum-
ministry, but to enslave the constitution. To this infernal
stance affords all the advantage they wished. I could not be
spirit of intrigue we owe that incessant fluctuation in his ma-
easy in my situation under the discovery of such an insult; and
jesty's councils, by which the spirit of government is so much
this critical moment is eagerly embraced to goad me from of-
relaxed, and all its minutest objects so "fatally deranged. Dui.-
lice, to upbraid me with the meanness of not taking the hint,
ing the strange and ridiculous interregnum o • last year, I had
to remind me in public of the fate which I owe to secfet ad-
not a doubt in my own mind with whom it originated ; and I
vice. When that hour comes, and it may not be very distant,
looked to an honourable gentleman (Mr. Jenkinson) opposite
that shall dismiss me from the service of the public, the ho-
to me, the moment the grounds of objection to the East India
nourable gentleman's example of lingering in office after the
bill were stated. The same illiberal and plodding cabal who
voice of the nation was that he should quit it, shall not be
then invested the throne, and darkened the royal mind with ig-
mine. I did not come in by the fiat of majesty, though by this
norance and misconception, have once more been employed
fiat I am not unwilling to go out. I ever stood, and wish only
to act the same part. But how will the genius of Englishmen
and always to stand on public ground. I have too much pride
brook the insult? Is this enlightened and free country, which
ever to owe any thing to secret influence. I trust in God this
has so often and successfully struggled against ever y species of
country has too much spirit not to spurn and punish the mi-
undue influence, to revert to those Gothic ages, when princes
nister that does ! I arrogate no pomp, however, from the for-
were tyrants, ministers minions, and government intriguing?
mality of resignation. My noble friend, I hope, thinks with
Much and gloriously did this House fight and overcome the in-
me, that the present is one of those singular junctures when it is
fluence ofthe crown by purging itself of ministerial dependants:
necessary to act with caution as well as spirit. We are cer-
but what was the contractors' bill, the board of trade, or a vote
tainly agreed not to retain our places any longer than we can
of the revenue officers, compared to a power- equal to one-third
maintain the dignity of government with responsibility and
of the legislature, unanswerable for, and unlimited in its act-
effect; and to the constitutional mandate of dismission we are
ing? Against these we had always to contend ; but we knew
prepared to bow with humility and obedience. We have been,
their strength, we saw their disposition, they fought under no
repeatedly reminded of our disagreeable situation ; but the chief
covert, they were a powerful, not a sudden enemy. To com-
fact to which we owe this inconveniency was only not foreseen,
promise the matter, therefore, Sir, it would become this House
from an idle opinion that no man could be base and servile
to say, rather than yield to a stretch of prerogative thus un-
enough to undertake it. But now, our eyes are open to trans-
precedented and alarming, withdraw your secret influence,
a ctions, of which ocular demonstration only could have con-
II
T 4
280
MIt. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS.
[Dec. 17.
1783.7
MR. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS,
281
vinccd us. We only beg when the revolution, which it is sup-
If, however, a change must take place, and a new ministry
posed may be effected in the royal breast, is authentically an-
is to be formed and supported, not by the confidence of this
nounced, we may be allowed to judge for ourselves. I will
House or the public, but the sole authority of the crown, I,
apprise gentlemen, however, that the situation of ministers is
for one, shall not envy that honourable gentleman his situa-
at present extremely delicate. They stand pledged to the
tion. From that moment I put in my claim for a monopoly
public and a very honourable majority of this House, not to
of whig-principles. The glorious cause of freedom, of inde-
relinquish the affairs of the state while in so much anarchy
pendence, and of the constitution, is no longer his, but mine.
and distraction. And what ministry could wish for a stronger,
In this I have lived ; in this I will die. It has borne me up
or more desirable foundation than such a. majority as have
under every aspersion to which my character has been sub-
constantly voted with us? For my own part, I ever thought
jected. The resentments of the mean and the aversion of the
public confidence the only substantial basis of a sound admi-
great, the rancour of the vindictive and the subtilty of the base,
nistration. The people of England have made me what I am ;
the dereliction of friends and the efforts of enemies, have not,
it was at their instance I have been called to a station
all, diverted me from that line of conduct which has always
in their service; and, perhaps, it would not be treating them
struck me as the best. In the ardour of debate, I may have
well, hastily to abandon the post to which they have generous-
been, like all other men, betrayed into expressions capable of
ly raised me. The whole of that respectable arrangement in
misrepresentation ; but the open and broad path of the con-
which I am but an, individual, are, in my opinion, bound in
stitution has uniformly been mine. I never was the tool of
honour to do something at least for thirty millions of innocent
any junto. I accepted of office at the obvious inclination of
people, whose expectations have been raised and flattered by
this House : I shall not hold it a moment after the least hint
our exertions; who have long struggled under every oppression,
from them to resume a private station.
and grappled with their fate in vain ; whose wretched and de-
The honourable gentleman is, however, grasping at place
plorable circumstances affect the British character in every
on very different grounds. He is not called to it by a majo-
corner of the world with infamy and horror; and who, at this
rity of this House; but, in defiance of that majority stands
moment, in spite of every exertion both of the legislature and
forth the advocate and candidate for secret influence. How
court'of directors, groan under the scourge, the extortion, and
will he reconcile a conduct thus preposterous to the constitu-
the massacre, of a cruel and desperate man, whom, in my con-
tion, with those principles for which he has pledged himself
science and from my heart, I detest and execrate.
to the people of England ? By what motives can he be thus
It is impossible to overlook, or not to be su-nrised at the ex-
blind to a system, which so flatly and explicitly gives the lie
treme eagerness of the honourable gentleman about our
to all his former professions ? Will secret influence conciliate
places, when twenty-four hours, at most, would give him full
that confidence to which his talents, connections, and princi-
satisfaction. Is it that some new information may be requisite
ples, entitled him; but which the aspect under which he
to finish a system thus honourably begun ! Or is the honour-
must now appear to an indignant and insulted public effec-
able gentleman's youth the only account which can be given
tually bars his claim? Will secret influence unite this House
of that strange precipitancy and anxiety which he betrays on
in the adoption of measures which are not his own, and to
this occasion ? It is, in my opinion; the best apology which
which he only gives the sanction of his name to save them
can be urged in his behalf. Generosity and unsuspecting
from contempt ? Will secret influence draw along with it that
confidence are the usual disposition of this tender period.
affection and cordiality from all ranks, without which the
The friends of the .honourable gentleman, I doubt not, will
movements of government must be absolutely at a stand? Or,
soon teach him experience and caution; and, when once he
is he weak and violent enough to imagine, that his majesty's
has known them as long, received as many of their promises,
mere nomination will singly weigh against the constitutional
and seen their principles as much tried as I have done, he may
influence of all these considerations ? For my own part, it has
not, perhaps, be quite so prodigal of his credulity as he now
been always my opinion, that this country can labour under
is. Is he apprised of the lengths these men would go to serve
no greater misfortune than a ministry Without strength and
their own selfish and private views? that their public spirit is
stability. The tone of government will never recover so as to
all profession and hypocrisy? and that the only tie which
establish either domestic harmony or foreign respect, without
unites and keeps them together is, that they are known only to
a- permanent administration ; and whoever knows any thing
each other, and that the moment of their discord, puts a period
of the constitution, and the present state of parties among us,
to their strength and consequence?
2 8 2
MR. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS.
[Dec. 17.
'
MR. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS.
178'3.]
28 3
must be sensible, that this great blessing is only and substan-
done, and peculiarly incumbent on this House, to pursue with un-
tially to be obtained and realized in connection with public
remitting attention the consideration of a suitable remedy for the
confidence. It is undoubtedly the prerogative of the sove-
abuses which have prevailed in the government of the British do-
reign to chuse his own servants ; but the constitution provides
minions in the East Indies ; and that this House will consider as
an enemy to this country, any person who shall presume to advise
that these servants should not be obnoxious to his subjects by
his majesty to prevent, or in any manner interrupt, the discharge
rendering all their exertions, thus circumstanced, abortive
and impracticable. The honourable gentleman had, there-
of this important duty." The motion was opposed, as interfering
with the executive part of government, and trenching on the un-
fore, better consider how much he risks by joining an ar-
doubted prerogative of the crown, without any justifiable cause.
rangement thus hostile to the interests of the-people ; that they
The motion was however carried by a majority of 1 47 to 7 3. On
will never consent to be governed by secret influence, and that
the 17th of December the India bill was rejected by the Lords, on
all the weight of his private character, all his eloquence and
a division of 95 to 76.
popularity, will never render the midnight and despotic man-
dates of an interior cabinet acceptable to Englishmen.
When 1 say in what manner, and to what ends, the wisdom
and experience of our ancestors have thus directed the exer-
cise of all the royal prerogatives, let me not be understood as
meaning, in any degree, to detract from those dutiful regards,
which all of us owe as good citizens and loyal subjects to the
COPIES OF MR. Fox's EAST INDIA BILLS.
prince who at present fills the British throne. No man ve-
nerates him more than I do, for his personal and domestic
A Bill for vesting the Affairs of the East India Company in
virtues. I love him as I love the constitution, for the glorious
the Hands of certain Commissioners, for the Benefit of the
and successful efforts of his illustrious ancestors in giving it
Proprietors and the Public.
form and permanency. The patriotism of these great and
good men must endear, to every lover of his country, their
'WHER EAS disorders of an alarming nature and magnitude
'WHEREAS
latest posterity. The king of England can never lose the es-
long prevailed, and do still continue and increase, in
teem of his people, while they remember with gratitude, the
the management of the territorial possessions, the revenues, and
the commerce of this kingdom in the East Indies ; by , means
many obligations_ which they owe to his illustrious family.
whereof the prosperity of the natives bath been greatly diminished,
Nor can I wish him a greater blessing, than '.iat he may reign
and the valuable interests of this nation in the said territorial posses-
in the hearts of his subjects, and that their confidence in his
sions, revenues, and commerce, have been materially impaired,
government may be as hearty and sincere as their affection for
and would probably fall into utter ruin if an immediate and fitting
his person.
remedy were not provided :
Be it therefore enacted by the king's most excellent majesty, by
and with the advice and consent of the lords spiritual and tem-
The House divided on the question that the order of the day be
poral, and the commons, in this present parliament assembled,
now read,
and by the authority of the same, That the government and ma-
Tellers.
Tellers.
nagement of the territorial possessions, revenues, and commerce
Neville
80
Mr. Baker
of the united company of merchants of England trading to the East
YEAS {Mr.
`ORS
Dundas
1Lord Maitland '53.
Indies, by the directors and proprietors of the said company, or
Mr. Baker's motion was consequently carried by a majority of 73.
either of them ; and all and singular the powers and authorities of
It was then resolved, " That on Monday next the House would
the said directors and proprietors, or of any special, or general, or
resolve itself into a committee of the whole House, to consider of
other court thereof, in the ordering and managing the said pos-
the state of the nation." As a change of ministers appeared to be a
sessions, revenues, and commerce ; and all elections of directors
measure determined on by the king, and the dissolution of parlia-
of the said united company, be, and are hereby declared to be,
ment an immediate and necessary consequence, the majority of the
discontinued, for and during the continuance of this act ; any
House thought no time was to be lost in endeavouring to render
charter, usage, law, or statute to the contrary notwithstanding.
the attempt as difficult as possible. With this view, immediately
And be it further enacted by the authority aforesaid, That for
after the above resolutions were agreed to, Mr. Erskine moved,
the better governing, ordering, and managing the said territorial
" That it is necessary to the most essential interests of this king-
possessions, revenues, and commerce, the Right Honourable
MR. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS.
28 -
284
MR. roes EAST INDIA BILLS.
[Dec.
II 8 3.1
ose las'afo as
resaid ; d sha, from me to time,
without
William Earl Fitzwilliam, the Right Honourable Frederick Mon.
purp
requi-
oftenanas 'theyll shall beti
eu
thernto required, render
tagu, the Right Honourable George Legge, commonly called Lord
sition, and also
account of their proceedings to the said directors hereby ap-
Viscount Lewisham, the Honourable George Augustus North, Sir'
pointed; and in all matters and things whatsoever, shall pursue and
Gilbert Elliott, Baronet, Sir Henry Fletcher, Baronet, and Robert
'
fol low such orders and directions as they shall from time to time
Gregory, Esquire, shall he, and they arc hereby constituted and
appointed directors of the said united compaly, and shall be,
receive
AAnd from
oi tn fsuur dr ier ielcatcotrs.
ed by the authority aforesaid, That in
and they are hereby constituted members of the said company ; and
case any vacancy or vacancies shall happen in the office of the said
that the said directors hereby appointed, or any three of them,
directors hereby appointed, by death, resignation, removal,
shall have, use, possess, and exercise all and singular the powers
or
otherwise, such vacancy or vacancies shall be filled by his majesty,
and authorities which have been at any time heretofore vested
r his sign manual, within twenty days after notice of such va-
or lawfully exercised by, the said directors hereby discontinued,
tin
cancy or vacancies shall have been given to one of his majesty's
proprietors, or by the general court of proprietors of the said united
principal secretaries of state.
company, and all such farther and other powers and authorities,
And be it further enacted by the authority aforesaid, -
and under such directions, and subject to such limitations and re-
That in
any vacancy or vacancies shall happen in the office of the said
strictions as in this act, or in any other act, the provisions where.
assistant directors, by death, resignation, removal, or otherwise,
of are not hereby altered or repealed, are contained, for the govern-
such vacancy or vacancies shall be filled by the majority of
ment and management of the said territorial possessions, revenueiii
and commerce of the said united company, or in any wise relative
the proprietors of the said united company, qualified in the
manner required by an act of the thirteenth year of his present
thereto.
al
majesty, intitled " An act for establishing certain regulations for
And be it further enacted by the authority aforesaid, That the'.
the better management of the affairs of the East India company,
said directors hereby appointed shall, and they are hereby author
as well in India as in Europe ;" which proprietors, at such election
rised and empowered, immediately from and after the commence;
of any assistant director, shall not vote by ballot,, or in any other
ment of this act, to enter into and upon, and to possess them-
covert or concealed manner, but in an open court, for that purpose
selves of all lands, tenements, houses, warehouses, and other build
only specially summoned ; and every such proprietor, in giving his
ings whatever, of or belonging to the said united company; and al;,
or her vote, shall subscribe his or her name in a book to be pre-
so to take into their custody and possession all books, records, dot'
pared for that purpose, under the name of the person for whom he
currents, charters, acts, instruments, letters, and other papers what;
soever, and also all ships and vessels, goods, wares, merchandises
or she shall vote.
And be it further enacted by the authority aforesaid, That
money, securities for money, and all other effects whatsoever, ,a
if five
of the said directors hereby appointed, who shall be present at any
or belonging to the said united company, in trust for, and for the
meeting, shall, upon enquiry, and after examination into the con-
benefit of, the proprietors thereof, and to have, hold, and pos-e-
duct and behaviour of the said assistant directors, find that any of
the same, in like manner as they were held andpossessed by the (:
them is guilty of neglect or misdemeanour in the execution of his said
rectors hereby discontinued, subject to such charges, claims, and
office, or of wilful disobedience of any order or orders of the said.
demands as do or may affect the same ; which directors so dis-
directors hereby appointed, they are hereby authorised and im-
continued, and all other officers and servants of said united
(–
Flowered to remove and displace such assistant directors; entering
company, are hereby enjoined, immediately upon the requisition
in their journals their reasons respectively for removing or displac-
of the said directors hereby appointed, signified under their hands
ing such assistant director, signed with their respective names.
and seals, or the hands and seals of any- three of them, to deliver to
And be it further enacted by the authority aforesaid, That the
them, or to such person or persons as they shall for that purpose.
said William Earl Fitzwilliam shall be, during his continuance as a
appoint, all such lands, tenements, houses, warehouses, buildings,
director by virtue of this act, chairman of the board of directors,
books, records, documents, charters, acts, instruments, papers,
and the said right honourable Frederic Montagu, deputy chairman
ships, vessels, goods, wares, and merchandises, money, securities
thereof; and if the said chairman shall die, resign, or be removed
for money, and all other effects whatsoever.
from such office of director, at any time during the continuance
And for the sole purpose of ordering and managing the com-
of this act, then and in that case the said deputy chairman shall
merce of the said united company, under and subject to the orders
succeed to the office of chairman of the said board of directors ;
and directions of the said directors hereby appointed, be it further
and if the said deputy chairman, being become chairman of the
enacted by the authority aforesaid, That Thomas Cheap, Esquire,
said board of directors, shall also die, resign, or be removed from
George Cuming, Esquire, Richard Hall, Esquire, John Harrison,
the said office of a director, then and in that case, and also in every
Esquire, Joseph Sharp, Esquire,John Michie, Esquire,John Smith,
other case of a vacancy in the office of a chairman of the said
Esquire, George Tatem, Esquire, and James Moffat, Esquire, being
board of directors, the said directors, hereby appointed, shall
proprietors, each of them of two thousand pounds capital stock in the
said united company, at least, shall be assistant directors, for the
chuse and elect one of themselves to supply such vacancy ;
I()
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[Dec. /7.
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237
and if a vacancy, either by succession otherwise, shall at any time
And be it further enacted by the authority aforesaid, That no
happen in the said office of deputy chairman of the said board of
person who Math been, now is, or shall hereafter be, in the service
directors, established by this act, the said directors hereby appoint-
of the said united company in India, shall be capable of being a
ed shall, in like manner, chase and elect one of themselves to sup.
director, or assistant director, for the execution of this act, within
ply such vacancy.
the space of two years from the time of his last return from India.
And be it further enacted by the authority aforesaid, That the
And be it further enacted by the authority aforesaid, That the
said chairman of the said board of directors, or, in his absence, the
said directors hereby appointed shall, once in every six months,
said deputy chairman, shall have power to call or summons any ex..
lay before the proprietors of the said united company, in a general
traordinary meeting of the said directors hereby appointed, at such
court to be for that purpose assembled, an exact state of the debts
time or times as he shall think expedient; and may, at any meeting
and credits of the said united company ; the first cost and charges
whatever of such directors, if he shall think fit, propose the business
of their investments, outward and inward : with the sums of money
to be first considered by such directors at such meeting ; and in
in India applicable to an investment, according to the last accounts
case of an equal division of voices on any question whatever before
received therefrom ; an account of the shipping ; an account of
the said board of directors, shall have the casting voice : provided
the produce of the sales ; and the state of the warehouses at home
always, that nothing herein contained shall prevent the majority of
and abroad.
such directors present at any meeting from adjourning their meet-
And be it further enacted by the authority aforesaid, That the
ings to such time or times as they shall think proper.
said directors hereby appointed shall, within twenty days after
And be it further enacted by the authority aforesaid, That it
the commencement of every session of parliament, lay before the
shall not be lawful for the said directors hereby appointed, or any
lords commissioners of his majesty's treasury (who are hereby
of them, upon any question whatever, to vote by ballot, or in any
authorised and required, without loss of time, to lay the same
other covert manner ; and that in any difference of opinion,!ex-
before both Houses of parliament,) an account of the produce of
cept as to the election to offices of persons not having before been
the territorial and other revenues of the ;aid united company in
• in the service of the said united company, the said directors (as
India ; and also estimates of the civil, military, and naval establish-
well the majority as those who shall dissent) shall each of them en-
ments there; together with a state of the bond and other debts
ter, on the journals of the said directors, his reasons for his vote,
due from the said united company in India, distinguishing what
signed-with his name, or his adherence to the reasons entered by
belongs to each of the principal presidencies and settlements of
any other director,
the said united company in India ; and. also the state of the trade,
And be it further enacted by the authority aforesaid, That no
. laid by the said directors before the said proprietors at their then
person furnishing the said united company with shipping, or with
last general court.
any article of their investment outwards, either from Great Bri-
And he it further enacted by the authority aforesaid, That the
tain, or from such ports and places as the company's ships have
said directors hereby appointed, or the major part of them, shall
occasion to touch at in their way to India, or with any naval or
have full power and authority to remove, displace, suspend, ap-
military stores, or concerned in buying and selling any commodity
point, confirm, or restore, all and every person or persons what-
of the said united company's importation, shall be capable of being
soever, from or to any office, station, or capacity whatsoever, civil
a director or assistant director for the execution -if this act.
or military, in the service of the said united company, or within
And be it also enacted by the authority aforesaid, That no per-
the limits of the said united company's charters, or any of them,
son shall be capable of being a director, or assistant director, for
or any way concerned in the management of their affairs within
the execution of this act, against whom the charge of any corrupt
this kingdom, or in India, whether any such person or persons
practice, peculation, or oppression in India, doth or shall appear
shall have been nominated or appointed in and by any act or acts
in the records of the said united company within the space of two
of parliament, or howsoever otherwise nominated or appointed :
years before the time of his nomination, or shall be made upon
except as herein provided and established, as to the appointment
oath before the said directors hereby appointed within the space
and removal of such directors themselves, and of the said assistant
of two years before the time of his nomination, until such direc-
directors.
tors, or three of them, shall have examined into the same, and
_Am" for the more speedy and effectual punishment of offences
shall have severally declared that they have examined into the
committed in India, by persons employed in the service of the
said charge, and do in their conscience believe such person not
said company, be it enacted by the authority aforesaid, That when-
guilty of the said charge ; or that they do, upon the said exami-
ever any charge of corruption, peculation, oppression, extortion,
nation, find the said charge not of sufficient importance to exclude
receipt of presents, usury, breach of orders, or other grievous
the said person from the said office of director or assistant director,
offence, shall be exhibited or made before the governor general
as the case may be ; and that they have entered upon their jour-
and council of Bengal, or the president and council of any of the
Uals their reasons for such their opinion.
presidencies or settlements abroad, of the said united company,
and transmitted, from thence to the court of directors, hereby dis-
28$
MR. Fox's EAST INDIA BILLS.
[Dec. 17.
1 783.1
MR. Fox's EAST INDIA DILLS.
289
continued, or to the said directors hereby appointed, against any.
which have arisen and are depending, or which shall or may here-
of the said governors, presidents, or members of the council, of
after arise, between the governor-general and council of Bengal ;
any of the said presidencies or settlements of the said united com-
or between any of the presidents of any other of the settlements
pany, or others, in any office, station, or employment, civil or
of the said united company, and their respective councils ; or
military, in the said united company's service ; or which shall be
between any of the subordinate chiefs and their councils ; or be-
exhibited or made by any of' the native princes. dependent upon,
tiveen the government of one settlement and the government of
or under the protection of the said united company, against any
any other settlement ; or between any of the governors or pre-
such person or persons ; the said directors hereby appointed, shall,
siding powers of any of the subordinate settlements ; the said di-
within twenty days after the same shall be received, enter into an
rectors hereby appointed shall, within twenty days after the receipt
examination of such charge ; and if; upon, or in consequence of
of any official account of any such dispute, difference, or contro-
such examination, such directors £11011 not think proper either to
versy, enter upon an examination and enquiry into the same ;
recal or order a prosecution against such person so charged, each
and shall, within three months thereafter, either come to a de-
and every such director, making such examination as aforesaid
finitive decision thereupon, or enter upon their journals their
into such charge, shall enter in writing, and subscribe with his
reasons, signed with their respective names, for not coming to such
name, in the journals of such directors, his opinion on the validity
definitive decision.
and importance of such charge, with his specific reasons, on the
And be it further enacted by the authority aforesaid, That if
particular case, for not recalling the person so charged, or for not
at any time the governor general and council of Bengal, or the
ordering a prosecution upon such charge.
president and council of any of the principal or subordinate set-
And be it further enacted by the authority aforesaid, That
tlements, shall require the direction or opinion of the said direc-
before any person or persons whatsoever, who have been, are, or
tors hereby appointed, on any matter whatsoever for the govern-
shall hereafter be in the service of the said united company, in
ment of such governor-general and council, or president and
any office, station, or employment whatsoever, civil or military, in
council, or for the settlement or accommodation of any matter in
any of the presidencies or settlements of the said united company
dispute, or likely to come into dispute, between or among them,
abroad ; and who have been, or are, or shall be in Great Britain
or any of them ; the said directors shall return an answer, opinion, ,
after such service abroad ; and against whom any charge shall
or direction, to such requisition; within three months after receiving
appear upon any of the company records, or shall have been made
the letter or letters containing the same, or enter upon their jour-
to the said court of directors hereby discontinued, or general .
nals their reasons signed, with their respective names, for not
court of proprietors, or shall be made or exhibited to the said
sending the same within the time aforesaid.
directors hereby appointed ; shall be permitted by the said di-
And be it enacted by the authority aforesaid, That if at any
rectors hereby appointed to return to any part of India, either in
time complaint shall be made of any breach of treaty, injury, wrong,
the same or in any other office, station or employment, in the
or grievance, done or committed against any native prince in India,
service of the said united company ; and also, before the said di- .
by any of the governments of the said united company's settle-
rectors hereby appointed shall confirm the appointment, or suffer
ments, or any officer or other person, civil or military, in the ser-
the departure from Great Britain for India, of' any person or per-
vice of the said united company ; or if any such breach of treaty,
sons who may have been, or shall be, appointed to any office,
Injury, wrong, or grievance, shall (without complaint being made
station, or employment whatsoever in the service of the said united
thereof) appear upon any part of the correspondence relating to
company, and against whom any such charge shall appear, or shall
the said united compan y 's affairs ; the said directors hereby ap-
have been made, or shall be made as aforesaid ; and also before
pointed shall, as speedily as may be, enquire into such breach of
the said directors hereby appointed, shall themselves appoint any
treaty, injury, wrong, or grievance ; and shall begin their exa-
person, having before been in the service of the said united com-
mination into the same, by reading and considering any treaties,
pany, to any office, station, or employment whatsoever, in the said
agreements, or assurances, subsisting between the said united com-
united company's service, and against whom any such charge shall
pany and such native prince, 017 any way relative to him, if any
appear, or• shall have been made, or shall be made as aforesaid;
Such there shall be, or any orders which may have been given by
the said directors hereby appointed shall, and they are hereby
the court of directors hereby discontinued, or general court of pro-
required to make a full and particular examination and enquiry
prietors, relating to such native prince ; and the said directors
into the conduct of every such person, relative to the said service,
hereby appointed, shall do full and complete justice to such native
and the subject matter of such charge ; and shall enter on their
prince for such breach of treaty, injury, wrong, or grievance, and
journals their reasons for permitting any such person to return, or
On every material article and head of charge (if' there be more
confirming the appointment, and permitting the departure, of any
than one) specifically, and not upon the whole of such charge in
such person, or for themselves appointing any such person (as the
gross.
case may be) notwithstanding such charge.
And be it further enacted by the authority aforesaid, That three,
And be it further enacted by the authority aforesaid„ That in
and not less, of the said directors, shall form a board for executing
case of any disputes, differences, or controversies Whatsoever,
VOL. n.
290
MR. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS.
[Dec.
783.]
MR. FOX'S EAST INDIA I3ILLS.
291
this act, or any of the powers thereof, or any other powers vested
for so long time as he shall continue in the office, a clear yearly
in or committed to, or which shall be vested in or committed to,
salary of five hundred pounds, payable by half yearly payments ;
such directors, and the major part of the said directors present
and that the respective payments of the said salaries shall be stated
shall determine, except where the voices shall be equally divided,
and allowed in the account of the disbursements for the manage-
and then the chairman, or in his absence, the deputy chairman,
ment of the allhirs of the said united East India company.
shall have two voices, or the casting voice. ‘-
And be it further enacted by the authority aforesaid, That this
And be it further enacted by the authority aforesaid, That all
act and all the provisions herein contained, shall commence and.
the correspondence of the said directors hereby appointed, with
take effect from and immediately after this act shall have received
all persons whatsoever in the service of the said united company,
his majesty's royal assent, and shall continue, and be in full force
shall he signed by the secretary of such directors, by order of the
for and daring the space of four years.
board.
And whereas by virtue of the charter of the said company, and
the regulations which have from time to time been made for the
A Bill for the better Government of the Territorial Possessions
• better government of the said company, it is required, that cer-
and Dependencies in India.
tain acts should be done or consented to, and that certain ac-
counts should be signed by a particular number of the directors
hereby discontinued, be it therefore enacted by the authority
Whereas great disorders have prevailed in the government of
aforesaid, that in all cases whatsoever, where any act, matter, or
the British territorial possessions, and dependencies thereof in
thing is directed to be done or consented to, or any accounts or
India ; and the laws and lawful authority of this kingdom have not
writing to be signed by the directors hereby discontinued, or to
been duly obeyed by divers of the servants of the united company
be done or consented to, or signed by any particular number of
of merchants trading to the East Ind,ies.
such directors, such act, matter, or thing shall, from and after the
For remedy whereof in future, be it declared and enacted, and it
commencement of this act, be done or consented to, and such
is hereby- declared and enacted, by the king's most excellent ma-
accounts or, writing shall be signed by three of the directors hereby
jesty, by and with the advice and consent of the lords spiritual and
appointed.
temporal, and commons, in this present parliament assembled, and
And be it further enacted by the authority aforesaid, That the
by the authority of the same, That there is not, nor hath been, any pri-
said directors hereby appointed, and assistant directors, and each
vilege, authority, power, pre-eminence, or jurisdiction granted, or
and every of them, during the continuance of this act, shall be
meant or intended to be granted, in and by an act of the thirteenth
utterly incapable of taking, holding, or exercising any office, station,
vearof the reign of his present majesty, intituled, "An act for esta-
or employment whatsoever, in the service of the said united com-
blishing certain regulations for the better management of the affairs
pany ; and shall also be incapable of taking, holding, or exercising
of the East India company, as well in India as in Europe," or in and
any other place of profit from the crown, during pleasure.
by any other act or acts whatsover, or in or by any law or usage what-
And be it further enacted by the authority aforesaid, That it
soever, for the governor-general and council of Bengal, or either
shall and may be lawful for his majesty to remove any of the said
or any of them, collectively or individually, or any other person
directors hereby appointed, or assistant directors upon an address
whatsoever in the service of the said united company, which doth
of either House of parliament.
or shall in any manner exempt hint or them, in the exercise of any
powers or authorities whatsoever, from a strict and faithful obedi-
And whereas 'a doubt may arise, whether the place of director,
When the same shall be held by any person, to be appointed by
ence to the orders and directions which have been issued to or for
his'imajesty, in manner herein before provided, be not within the
them, from the late or any other court of directors, or which shall
iprovision of an act of the sixth year of the reign of Queen Anne,
or may be issued to or for them by the commissioners named and
ntituled, " An act for the security of her majesty's person and
appointed in an act of this session of parliament, to manage and
government, and of the succession to the crown of Great Britain
govern the affairs of the said united company, instead of the said.
court of directors and general court of proprietors, or such other
in the protestant line," although the said place shall have been
co
•created and erected by authority of parliament : be it therefore
mmissioners as shall or may be lawfully appointed for exercising
enacted and declared by the authority aforesaid, that such office
the powers given them in and by the said act.
shall not be deemed and taken to be within the intent and purview
And be it further declared and enacted, That all general or spe-
cial orders of the court of directors of the said united company, for
of the said act ; nor shall any person accepting and holding the
same, by an appointment from his majesty, under his royal 41;
the regulation of the conduct of the governor-general and council
manual, be thereby disqualified from being elected, or sitting awl
of Bengal, or of any other president and council, or of any other
o
votin. as a member of the House of Commons.
person or persons, in any other station, office, employment, or ca-
pacity- whatsoever, in the service of the said united company, shall
And be it further enacted by the authority aforesaid, That there
shall be allowed and paid for and to each of the assistant directors'
and are hereby declared to be, rules by which the persons
herein before described shall be governed and directed, until notice
10
li 2
292
MR. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS.
[Dec. 17,
MR. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS.
1783'1
293
shall be given by the said commissioners of any alteration, revo-
of any particular fact or facts alledged by him to have happened in
cation, or repeal of them, or any of them.
the execution of such commission, and in support of which docu-
And whereas pretences have been used to evade the salutary re_
ments or vouchers might have been had.
gulations of the said act of the thirteenth year of his majesty's
And be it further enacted by the authority aforesaid, That
reign, relative to rules, ordinances, and regulations, as if the pro-
all correspondence and communication whatsoever, of or by any
visions contained in the said act, relative thereto, were confined to'
resident, agent, or other person employed at the court of any
certain forts and factories ; whereby a power subject to no control
native prince or state, or of or by any such native prince or
has been exercised throughout the provinces of Bengal, Bahar,
state, or any agent or minister of such native prince or state,
and Orissa; be it therefore declared and enacted, That all rules,
or of or by any chief and council of any factory or subor-
ordinances, and regulations, which by the said act it is made lawful
dinate settlement, or any of them, or of or by any collector of re-
for the governor-general and council of Fort William to issue, for
venue, shall be addressed to the governor-general and council, or
the good order and civil government of the said settlement, under
president and council, respectively ; and all correspondence and
certain restrictions and provisions in the said act contained, were
communication whatsoever of or by any such person or persons,
not, nor are meant or intended to be, confined only to such rules,
rhether addressed to the said governor-general or his secretary, or
ordinances, and regulations, as arc made or issued for the go-
to any member of the council or his secretary, shall be laid before
vernment of, or relative to forts and factories, or other subordinate
the council, after the same shall be received.
places in the said settlement only ; but shall, and all such restric-
And be it enacted by the authority aforesaid, That the governor-
tions and provisions are hereby expressly declared to extend, with-
general of Bengal, and the president of any other of the said
out any exception or limitation whatsoever, to all rules, ordinances,
principal settlements in India, may by his own authority, adjourn
and regulations, as are made or issued for the government of or
or postpone the consideration of any question whatsoever, in the
relative to forts and factories, or other subordinate places, in the
respective councils in which they preside, for the space of
said settlement only ; but shall, and all such restrictions and pro-
and no longer : Provided always, That such governor general or
visions are hereby expressly declared to extend, without any ex-
president shall not have power to adjourn or postpone the same
ception or limitation whatsoever, to all rules, ordinances, and re-
question more than
gulations, made and issued by the said governor-general and
And be it enacted by the authority ,aforesaid„ that neither the
council of Fort William, in whatever place, or wheresoever, or
governor general and council of Bengal, nor president and coun-
over whatsoever class or description of persons, the same are to
t,
cil of any other of the said united company's presidencies or settle-
operate.
ments in India, shall have power to cede to, or exchange with, any
And be it further enacted by the authority aforesaid, That any
native prince or state whatsoever, any territory, which was in the
such rule, ordinance, or regulations, shall not only be duly regis-
possession of the said united company, or of any of its dependent
tered and published in the supreme court of judicature, but an ac-
princes or states, in or immediately before the year nor
count or abstract of the true effect and substance thereof, and of
shall make or accept any acquisition whatsoever, whereby the ter-
every clause and provision thereof, in the Persian and Hindostan
ritory of the said united company shall be increased or extended,
languages, shall be registered and published, and affixed up in some
without orders or directions expressly for that purpose, transmitted
commodious and conspicuous place, in each and every provincial
by the said commissioners appointed in and by an act of this pre-
court within the provinces of Bengal, Bahar, and Orissa, or within
sent session of parliament, for managing the affairs of the said
the territory to which it relates.
united company.
And be it enacted by the authority aforesaid, That no delegation
And be it enacted by the authority aforesaid, That it shall not
.whatsoever of the powers of the governor-general and council of
be lawful for the said governor-general and council of Bengal to
.Bengal, or of any president and council of any other of the said
invade, or enter with any armed force, or in any hostile or offensive
:settlements, shall be made or given to the said governor-general
manner, into the territory of any native, independent prince or
or president, or any other person or persons whatsoever ; and in
state in India, except upon intelligence, the credibility and impor-
case the said governor-general, or any member of the council of
tance of which shall be allowed by a majority in council, and so
Bengal, or any president or member of the council of any other of
declared to be, in minutes subscribed by each member composing
the said settlements, or any other person or persons whatsoever,
such majority, upon the records of the said council, that such
shall be employed in the execution of any special commission, the
prince or state is about to attack and make war upon, or actually
proceedings thereupon shall not be finally approved, and confirmed
making preparations to attack and make war upon the territories
until a full report of the same shall be made to the said governor-
of the said united company, or of some of the princes or states de-
general and council, or president and council, respectively ; and
pendent thereupon.
the person or persons so employed shall, upon the requisition of
And be it further enacted by the authority aforesaid, That nei-
the governor-general or president, or any member of the said
ther the said governor-general and council of Bengal, nor the pre-
council, deliver into council his documents or vouchers do support
sident and council of any other of the said presidencies or settle-
u3
294
MR. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS..
[Dec. 17.
MR. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS.
1783.j
295
ments, shall have power to make any offensive alliance whets,.
debt or balance exceeding in consequence of any ad-
ever, for the purpose of dividing or sharing any country or terri,
vance to be made for the making of any manufacture, or for the
tory whatsoever, between or with the said united company and
purchase of materials, by any person making the same, or to any
any native prince or state in "India, without the express orders and
husband:ne n or actual cultivator of land, for any raw commodity,
directions, for that purpose of the commissioners aforesaid.
shall be recoverable in any court, or by any action or suit at law,
And be it further enacted by the authority aforesaid, That the
or by any compulsory or other process or means whatsoever, after •
said governor-general and council of Bengal, or any president and
the space of' from the time of making the said advances :
council of any other of the said presidencies or settlements, shall
And that it shall not be lawful to imprison in any common prison,
not make or enter into any treaty or agreement whatsoever, to hire
or in any private house or out-house, any person whatsoever, for
out to any native prince or state in India, any part of the British or
or by reason of any such advances, within the said space of
native troops serving in India under the orders of the said united
or at any time afterwards.
company ; nor shall make or enter into any new treaty or agree.
And whereas in and by the said act of the thirteenth year of
ment whatsoever, to or for the keeping up of any body of such
the reign of his present majesty, it is enacted, That every present,
troops in any of the countries or territories of any of the indepen-
gift, gratuity, donation, or reward, accepted, taken, or received,
dent princes or states in India.
contrary to the true intent and meaning of the said act, shall be
And be it further enacted by the authority aforesaid, That the
deemed and construed to have been received and taken to and for
said governor-general and council of Bengal or any other of the
the sole use of the said united company. And whereas the said
presidents or councils of the said presidencies or settlements in
provision bath been attended with inconvenience, inasmuch as it
India, shall not appoint to, or employ in any office, place, or station
has been pretended that the servants of the company have liberty to
whatsover, any person whatsoever, native or British, who bath
take and receive presents, accounting to the said united company for
been or shall be removed from any office, station, or place what-
the same : Be it therefore enacted by the authority aforesaid, that
sover, for any misdemeanour or other offence, without authority
every such present, gift, gratuity, donation, or reward, accepted,
for that purpose first had and obtained from the said commis-
taken, or received, if' the same shall not be corruptly given to ob-
sioners.
tain any place or other object, to which the person giving the same
And be it further enacted by the authority aforesaid, That it
shall not be entitled, shall be returned or re-delivered to the per-
shall not be lawful for the said governor-general and council of
son giving the same, or his representatives, according to the cus-
Bengal, or any president and council of any other of the said pre-
tom of the country ; and such person, or his representatives, shall
sidencies or settlements in India, or any collector of revenue, or
and may recover the same by any suit, action, or bill, or other
chief or other member of any provincial or subordinate settlement
mode of proceeding whatsoever in use in the place where such gift,
in India, to let or rent any farm of land, or other thing whatsoever,
gratuity, donation, or reward, shall be accepted, taken, or received,
to any Banian, native steward, or other native servant whatsoever,
brought at any time against the person to whom the same was
of any governor-general, president, or member of any council, col-
given, or his representatives; and if the same was corruptly given
lector of revenue, or of any officer in the army, or of any judge in
to obtain any place, or other object, in or any way relating to the
the supreme court, or of any civil servant of the said united company;
said united company's service, then and in that case the person'
and all contracts and agreements made contrary to this act, with
eiving shall not be entitled. to recover the same, but the same shall
e
any such Banian, native steward, or native servant, for the purpose
be to and for the sole use of the said united company, as heretofore.
of letting or renting any farm of land, or of other thing whatsoever,
And whereas it may happen, that neither the person giving such
shall be deemed and taken to be for the account of the principal,
present, gift, gratuity, donation, or reward, nor the said united
or person in whose service such Banian, native steward, or native
company, may sue for the same ; be it therefore enacted, that in
servant is ; •and such Banian, native steward, or native servant,
case the person giving the same, or the said united company, shall
shall account to the said united company for the profits made by
not sue for the same within months, then the same shall and
such farm of land or other thing ; which profits shall and may be
may be sued for, and recovered, in manner aforesaid, by any per-
recovered from such principal, or person in whose service such Ba-
son or persons whatsoever, to and for his and their sole use and
hian, native steward, or native servant was, at the time when such
benefit.
contract or agreement was made or entered into. .
And be it further enacted by the authority aforesaid, That if
And be it further enacted by the authority aforesaid, That from
any person, from and after shall, contrary to the said act
and after all monopolies, rights of pre-emption, or pre-
of the thirteenth year of the reign of his present majesty, ac-
ferences, by any authority, or upon any pretence whatsoever, of
cept, receive, or take, directly or indirectly, by himself, or any
any commodities or goods in any of' the said united company's set-
other person or persons on his behalf, or for his use or benefit, of
tlements in India, shall be, and are hereby declared to be contrary
and from any of the Indian princes or powers, or their ministers or
to law, and void.
agents, or any of the natives of Asia, any present, gift, donation,
And be it further enacted by the authority aforesaid, That no
gratuity, or reward, pecuniary or otherways, upon any account, or
IT 4
296
MM. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS.
Mee.
1783.]
MR. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS.
29 7
on any pretence whatsoever, or any promise or engagement for
heirs, or descendants, any farther or greater rent, tribute, service,
any present, gift, donation, gratuity or reward, and shall be there.
or payment, or any other char ge than is herein provided.
fore legally convicted in the supreme court at Calcutta, or in the
And be it further enacted by the authority aforesaid, That it
mayor's court in any other of the said united company's settlements,
and may be lawful for the governor-general and council of
or in any court of competent jurisdiction to_ try such offence in
Bengal to restore, and they are hereby authorised and required to
this kingdom, such person shall thereupon'
-
restore to every native landholder, his heirs or descendants, ac-
And whereas some of the servants of the said united company,
cording to the usage of the country, who shall have been removed
have raised the rents paid by landholders to the said united com-
or dispossessed of his land or territory, the actual possession
pany, and have farmed out the lands at new rents, by means of
thereof, upon the rent, tribute, service, or payment herein before
which practices several ancient families have been dispossessed
provided, if such native landholder shall be willing or desirous to
of lands long in their occupation, and have been reduced to indi-
repossess his land or territory ; subject, nevertheless, to such farm
gence and distress. For remedy whereof, be it enacted and de-
or leases thereof as shall or may have been made before the
clared by the authority aforesaid, and it is hereby enacted and
and shall be still existing : and if such native landholder
declared, That all lands and tenements within the provinces of
shall have quitted or been dispossessed of his land or territory,
Bengal, Bahar, and Orissa, or in any territorites in which the receipt
for or upon condition of receiving any pension or appointment in
and management of the revenues is or shall be under the imme-
lieu thereof, and shall prefer such pension or appointment, the
diate administration of the said united company, or their ser-
same shall, on no account, or upon no pretence be discontinued,
vants or agents, not in the actual occupation of the said united
'
withheld, diminished, or taken away, but shall be regularly paid
company, or by them leased or farmed out, in or immediately be-
to such native landholder, his family, heirs, or descendants, ac-
fore the year shall be deemed and taken to be the estate
cording as the land or territory was held, and to the terms and sti-
and inheritance of the native landholders and families who then had
pulations made with such native landholder.
and held the same, unless dispossessed by judgment of some com-
And be it further enacted by the authority aforesaid, That all
petent court, for some crime or misdemeanour, or non-payment of
native princes and states in India, who having the management of
their rent, and shall be from henceforward enjoyed by them, and
their own revenues, are engaged, by treaty or otherwise, to fur-
their heirs and descendants, according to the custom of the country
nish or keep up a body of troops for the defence or service of the
of or relating to the same, or where the same is had and held,
said united company, or to pay any tribute or sum of money in lieu
without any molestation, interruption, or disturbance whatsoever,
thereof, or to keep up or pay any body of English troops, or to pay
of or by the said united company, their governors, council, minis-
any tribute or sum of money in lieu thereof, .or who pay any
ters or servants.
tribute or sum of money for the protection of the said united
Provided always, That nothing herein contained shall be con-
company, are under the protection of his majesty, and shall not be
strued to deprive the said united company of the rent or tribute which
disturbed or molested by any of the servants of the said united com-
shall be clue or payable to them from such native landholders, their
pany in the enjoyment of their rights according to the laws and
families or descendants, for or on account of any such land ; or to
usage of the country.
prevent the said united company from having or taking any means
And whereas some of the servants of the said united company
according to the laws and usages of the said countries, for reco-
have heretofore committed unwarrantable acts in and relative to
vering and obtaining payment of such rent or tribute.
the territories and revenues of the native princes and states under
And, for quieting the minds of the said native princes, and pr&
the said united company's protection ; be it further enacted by the
venting the corrupt practices which may arise from arbitrary alte-
authority aforesaid, That all and every of the servants of the said
rations of rent or tribute ; be it enacted by the authority aforesaid,
united company, civil and military, shall be, and are hereby de-
That the rent, tribute, service, or payment, paid or agreed to be
clared to be amenable to the said commissioners appointed to ma-
paid by the said native landholders, in the provinces or territories
nage the affairs of the said united company, and in and to all courts
aforesaid, to the said united company, in or immediately before the
of justice, (both in India and in Great Britain,) of competent juris-
year shall remain and be, and be deemed and taken to be,
diction to try offences committed in India, for all acts, injuries
the fixed and permanent rent, tribute, payment, or service, which
wrongs, oppressions, trespasses, misdemeanors, crimes, and of-
shall be payable to the said united company by the said native
fences whatsoever, by them or any of them done or committed in
landholders, their families, heirs, and descendants ; and that it
any of the lands or territories of such protected native princes or
shall not be lawful for the governor-general and council of Bengal,
states, or against their persons or properties, or the persons or pro-
or the governor and council of any other principal settlement, or
perties of any of their subjects or people ; whether the same were
the chief and council of any subordinate settlement, or any other
committed under pretence of the order of any native protected
servant or agent of the said united company, to alter such rent,
prince, or otherwise howsoever, in the manner as if the same had
tribute, service, or payment, upon any pretence whatsoever, or to
been done or committed within the territories directly subject to
exact from or impose upon any such native landholder, his family',
and under the British government in India.
298
MR. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS.
[Dec. 1.7?
t783.]
MR. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS.
299
And be it further enacted by the authority aforesaid, That ne
the same, are hereby declared ; and any person or per-
civil or military servant in the said united company's service, or
sons guilty of any such offence, and thereof convicted in the man-.
person in the service of his majesty, shall, by himself or any agent
ner herein before last mentioned, shall be
for him, take upon himself to collect or farm, or be any way con.
And be it further enacted by the authority aforesaid, That it shall
cerned, directly or indirectly, in collecting or farming of any of
not be lawful for the said protected native princes or states to re-
the revenues of such protected native princes or states.
move or dispossess any zemindar, or other native prince, or land-
And be it further enacted by the authority aforesaid, That if
holder, nor to increase his rent or tribute beyond that which was
any officer, civil or military, of the said united company, shall in.
paid by such zemindar or native prince in the year nor to
vade or make war upon or enter with an armed force, in a hostile
farm any land at any higher or greater rent or tribute than the
or offensive manner, any of the territories of the native princes or
same was farmed at or for in the said year
nor to resume
states in India, not under the protection of his majesty and the
any jaghire granted at any time before the year
said united company, without . express orders in writing from the
And be it further enacted by the authority aforesaid, That all
governor-general and council of Bengal, such person, upon con-
zemindars, and native princes and states, who shall have been dis-
viction thereof in the supreme court of Calcutta, or in any mayor's
possessed of their lands and territories by
at any time
court, in any other of the said principal settlements, or in the court
since
shall be restored to the possession and enjoy-
ofKing's Bench, or in any other court which shall have jurisdiction
ment of the same.
to try offences committed in India, shall be
And be it further enacted by the authority aforesaid, That the
And be it further enacted by the authority aforesaid, That none
nabob of Arcot, the rajah of Tanjore, or any other protected
of the said protected native princes or states shall have any other
native prince in India, shall not assign, mortgage, or pledge any
native prince or state dependent upon him or them, any farther or
territory, or land whatsoever, or the produce or revenue thereof,
otherwise than as such other native prince or state shall have stood
to any British subject whatsoever ; neither shall it be lawful for
bound or engaged to such protected native prince or state or on
any British subject whatsoever to take or receive any such assign-
before the year for the payment of any sum or sums of
ment, mortgage, or pledge ; and the same are hereby declared
money, rent, or tribute, or for furnishing or supplying some defi-
and all payments or deliveries of produce or revenue,
nite quota of troops, which troops shall not be required or called fior
under any such assignment, shall and may be recovered back by
without the orders of the governor-general and council of Bengal,
such native prince paying or delivering the same, from the person
or president and council of some other principal settlement.
or persons receiving the same, or his or their representatives.
And be it further enacted by the authority aforesaid, That the
And be it enacted by the authority aforesaid, That it shall not
succession of the said protected native princes shall be directed
be lawful for any British subject whatsoever to have, receive, or
and disposed of according to the laws of the country, or to such
take any payment of money, produce, revenue, goods, commodi-
treaties as shall have or contain any stipulation concerning the
ties, or effects whatsoever, of or from any such native protected
same ; and that such succession shall not be altered or disposed of
prince, or any agent or servant thereof, for or on account of any
by will, or in any other manner, contrary to the laws of the coun-
debt now due, or claimed to be due, from such protected native
try, and the faith of such treaties.
prince, except such debts as were consolidated in the year
And be it further enacted by the authority aforesaid, That such
and allowed by the court of directors, and by them ordered to be
protected native princes or states shall not be permitted to rent or
recovered, without proof first made, to the satisfaction of the said
take, or have any farm or lease of any lands whatsoever, of or from
commissioners, or such person or persons as they shall appoint,
the said united company.
that such debt was fairly and bone fide contracted for money lent,
And be it further enacted by the authority aforesaid, That no
or goods sold and delivered, or in some open and avowed course of
such protected native prince shall be permitted to reside for more
trade and commerce, and not as, or for, a reward for any service
than in any of the said united company's settlements,
done or performed, or intended to be done or performed, by any
unless, being expelled from or driven out of his dominions, he
such British subject, to or for any such protected native prince, or
shall take refuge in the said united company's territories.
for any other matter forbidden or prohibited to be made or done
And be it enacted by the authority aforesaid, That from and af-
by any law or laws now in force, or hereafter to be in force, or by
ter it shell not be lawful for any servant, civil or
any order or orders of the said united company, or any order or
military, of the said united company, to have or be engaged in the
orders to be made by the said commissioners appointed to manage
borrowing or lending of any money, or in any money transaction
the affairs thereof ; and an entry, with the nature and particulars of
whatsoever, or in the farming of any lands or revenues, or in the
the claim, and of the evidence in support thereof, shall be made
buying or selling of any goods or commodities whatsoever, or in
in the journal of the said commissioners, or in the minutes of such
any other transaction of commerce or business whatsoever, with
person or persons as they shall for those purposes appoint, with the
any such protected or other native prince or state ; and all such
opinion of the said commissioners, or such person or persons
transactions, and all contracts and engagements of or relating to
thereon.
300
MR. Fox's EAST INDIA BILLS.
[Dec. 17.
1783.]
MR. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS.
301
And be it further enacted by the authority aforesaid. That all
president and council of Madras, Bombay, or Bencoolen for the
disputes and differences whatsoever, now actually subsisting be.
time being, to make any orders for commencing hostilities, or de-
tween the nabob of Arcot and the rajah of Tanjore, shall be ex.
claring or making war, against any Indian princes or powers, or
ambled and considered, as soon as may be, by the said commis.
for negotiating or concluding any treaty of peace, or other treaty,
sioners appointed to manage the affairs' of the• said united com-
v,rith any such Indian princes or powers, without the consent and
pany ; who shall, and they are hereby required; as soon as they
approbation of the said governor-general and council first had and
shall have sufficiently examined and considered the same, to send
obtained, (except in the cases of imminent necessity, and of spe-
and transmit such orders as shall appear to them best calculated for
cial orders from the said united company, ) with power to the said
the quiet and final adjustment and termination of such disputes and
governor general and council to suspend any president and council
differences, according to the principles of; and the terms and sti-
offending in any of the cases aforesaid : And whereas great dis-
pulations contained in, the treaty of one thousand seven hundred
putes have at different times arisen respecting the extent of the
and sixty-two, between the said nabob of Arcot and the rajah
said controlling power given to the said governor-general and coun-
of Tanjore, and to the orders and instructions of the court of
cil, to the embarrassment and injury of the said united company's
directors given to George Lord Pigot, late governor of Fort Saint
service; for remedy whereof, be it enacted and declared, that
George, and to the arrangements made relative to such dispute
the said power given to the governor-general and council of Fort
and differences by the said George Lord Pigot.
William, of superintending and controlling the government and
And be it further enacted, That the said commissioners shall,
management of the presidencies of Madras, Bombay, and Ben-
and they are hereby directed and required to send and transmit to
coolen, respectively, cloth and shall extend to all negotiations and
the governor-general and council of Bengal, or the president and
cases whatsoever, which, though they shall not in themselves be
council of Fort Saint George, or to or by such other person or
the commencement, or orders for the commencement, of hostilities,
persons as they shall for that purpose specially nominate and ap-
or the declaring or making war against any Indian princes or
point, fu41 and explicit orders and directions, not only to settle
powers, shall nevertheless be of any unwarrantable nature or ten-
and terminate the said differences and disputes, but also to take
dency against such Indian princes or powers, or shall be of a na-
into consideration and examine the present state of the affairs, reve-
ture and- tendency to create dissatisfaction and alarm among any
nues, and debts of the said nabob of Arcot, and of the rajah of
of them, and consequently provoke to bring on and occasion hos-
Tanjore ; and to enquire into and ascertain the origin, nature, and
tilities and war, without directly importing or leading to the same:
amount of all claims whatsoever on them by British subjects; and
and in all such cases, the said governor-general and council shall
immediately to make a full report thereupon to the said commis-
have all the powers Of suspending, given them in and by the said
sioners; and to adopt, propose, or suggest such ways or means
act of the thirteenth year of the reign of his present majesty ; and
for the liquidation and settlement of such debts as shall appear to
shall enter on their minutes of consultation at large, the whole
be well founded and contracted bong fide, (and not by any illicit
nature of the case in which, and the reasons for which, they exer-
dealing, or in consequence of any breach or disobedience of the
cise the said powers, and shall transmit the same by the first op-
said united company's orders,) and for the payment and discharge
portunity, to the said commissioners appointed for the manage-
thereof, by such instalments, and at such times, and in such man-
ment of the affairs of the said united company : and if the case in
ner, as shall be consistent with justice to the creditors of the said
which the said superintending, controlling, and suspending powers,
nabob and rajah, and to the service of the said united company,
or any of them, are exercised, be such as creates a reasonable
and as shall occasion the least difficulty and inconvenience to the
doubt whether the said powers apply to it, the governments and
said nabob and rajah ; and, as speedily as may be, to make a full re-
presidencies of Madras, Bombay, and Bencoolen, are nevertheless
port of all their proceedings touching the said matters to the said
hereby required to submit and yield obedience to the acts of the
commissioners.
said governor-general and council, and to lay the case before the
And be it further enacted by the authority aforesaid, That all
said commissioners, for the determination thereof.
polygars, which shall or may have been dispossessed or driven out
And be it further enacted by the authority aforesaid, That it
of their lands or territories at any time since the year
shall and may he lawful to and for the government and presidency
shall be restored to the possession of the same, and hold the same
of Bombay, whenever and as often as any war against the said
at and for the same, and no greater rent or tribute as such poly-
united company, their possessions or dependencies, shall be ac-
gars paid, or were liable to pay, on or immediately before
tually commenced, or the danger thereof is impending and immi-
And whereas it is enacted in and by the act of the thirteenth
nent, in the north-west and western coasts of India, or in the ter-
year of the reign of his present majesty, That the said gover-
ritories adjoining thereto, and in the neighbourhood thereof, or in
nor-general and council, or the major part of them, shall have
any part of the territories of the states of the Mahratta.s, to make
power of superintending and controlling the government and ma-
and conclude any treaty or terms of peace, truce, or cessation of
nagement of the presidencies of Madras, Bombay, and Ben-
arms, with any of such Indian princes or states actually at war, or
coolen, respectively, so far as that it shall not be lawful for any
about to make war, or for the amity, assistance, or alliance of au
CHANGE OF MINISTRY, &C.
303
302
MR. FOX'S EAST INDIA RILLS.
[Dec. 17.
178.3•3
have been commenced before the expiration of the said space of
other Indian prince or states, the better to defend the possessions
after the return of such person, and shall be finally de-
of the said united company against such war commenced or
i
within the s I)
space of
after the
after the
pending: Provided always, -that the said government and presi.
c
t rm
eoni
i tehn
u
thereof;
the same shall not operate to
dency of Bombay do and shall insert, or cause to be inserted, in
all and every such treaty herein before mentioned, a clause or
disable such person from being elected into, or fromtsitting or
provision that the same shall be null and void, unless it shall
voting in the house of Commons, unless the delay in such pro-
he
approved and ratified (within a certain reasonable time
ceedings, or public prosecution, shall be at the request, or through
therein to
be named) by the governor-general and
;lie default of the party prosecuted.
council of Fort William ;
and the said government
And be it further enacted, That all crimes and offences against
and presidency shall, and they are hereby
required to enter on their minutes of consultation, at
this act may be prosecuted in the supreme court at Calcutta, or in
full length,
mayor's court in any other of the principal settlements in India,
the occasion of and necessity for such proceedings, with the rea-
the
sons upon which they have acted, and the documents
or in the court of king's bench, or any other court in this king-
or vouchers
(if any there shall be) for the facts alleged ; and shall transmit
dom, which shall be established for taking cognizance of crimes
the same from time to time, as they shall arise or happen, and all
and offences committed in India ; and all the powers and autho-
propositions relative to the same, as they shall be made, to the
rities given to the said court of king's bench, in and by the said
said governor-general and council of Fort William, and
act of the thirteenth year of the reign of his present majesty, and
to the
said commissioners appointed to manage the affitirs of the said
Dot herein otherwise provided for, are hereby declared to be ex-
united company, respectively ; and shall
tended to all the crimes and offences committed against this act :
obey and follow, under
the pain of suspension, all such orders and directions thereupon
and in all cases where the punishment is not herein appointed, the
as they shall receive from the said governor-general
court in which the conviction shall take place, shall appoint such
of Fort Wil-
liam, until the same shall be altered or corrected by
fine or imprisonment, or both, as they shall think proper, provided
the said com-
missioners.
the fine shall not exceed. nor the imprisonment and
And be it further enacted by the authority aforesaid,
may, in their discretion, superadd the incapacity of serving the
That the
government mid presidency of Madras shall have the like powers
said united company.
and authorities, under the same limitations and restrictions, in
case of war against the said united company, their possessions or
dependencies, actually commenced, or the danger thereof iru-
penditrY and imminent, on the coast of Coromandel, from
to
on the coast of Malabar, or in the territories adjoin-
CHANGE OF MINISTRY. — EARL TEMPLE'S RESIGNATION. —
ing thereto, and in the neighbourhood thereof.
ADDRESS TO THE KING NOT TO DISSOLVE THE PARLIA-
And be it further enacted by the authority aforesaid, That no
MENT. — THE KING'S ANSWER.
governor-general, governor, or president, member of council, or
other officer, civil or military, in the service of the said united
December 19.
company in India, (whether such person shall be actually in the
execution of his office in India, or shall be absent therefrom in
N 'Wednesday, the 17th of December Mr. Fox's India bill
Great Britain, or in any other place) or any agent,
O
in Great Bri-
was rejected by the lords on a division of 95 to 76. It was
tain or India, of any protected or other native prince in India,
remarked, that the Prince of Wales, who was in the minority in
shall be capable of being a member of; or of sitting and voting in
the former division, having learned in the interim that the mea-
the House of Commons : Provided, that every such person, ac-
sure was offensive to the king, was absent on this occasion. At
tually a member of the House of Commons at the time of passing
twelve o'clock on the following night a messenger delivered to the
this act, shall and may sit and vote for and during the remainder
two secretaries of state his majesty's orders, " That they should
of the present parliament.
deliver up the seals of their offices, and send them by the under-
And be it further enacted by the authority aforesaid, That no
secretaries Mr. Frazer and Mr. Nepean, as a personal interview
person having been in the civil and military service of the said
on the occasion would be disagreeable to him." The seals were
united company, and who lath resigned or quitted the same, shall
Immediately given by the king to Earl Temple, who sent letters of
be capable of being elected into, or of sitting or voting in the
dismission, the day following, to the rest of the cabinet council;
House of Commons, at any time within after be shall
at the same time Ar. William Pitt was appointed first lord of the
have been returned to and resident in Great Britain, or whilst any
treasury and chancellor of the exchequer, and Earl Gower pre-
proceedings in parliament, or any other public prosecution, shall
sident of the council. On the zzd, Earl Temple resigned the
be depending against him for any crimes or offences alleged to
seals of his office, and they were delivered to Lord Sydney, as
have been committed by him whilst he was in the said service:
secretary of state for the home-department, and to the Marquis of
Provided always, that such proceedings or public prosecution shall
Carmarthen for the foreign. Lord Thurlow was appointed high
304
CHANGE OF MINISTRY, &C.
[Dec 19.
I 7 831
CHANGE OF MINISTRY, &C.
305'
chancellor of' Great Britain, the Duke of Rutland lord privy seal
Mr. Fox said that no man could he more anxious than he
Lord Viscount Howe first lord of the admiralty, and the Duke of
was to support the credit of the nation, and consequently
Richmond master-general of the ordnance; Mr. William Grenville
to provide for the payments which would become due to -
anti Lord Mulgrave succeeded Mr. Burke in the pay-office, and
the public on the ctli of January; and if the adjourning to
Mr. Henrt Dundas was appointed to the office of treasurer of the
Monday could have such an effect as to prevent the passing
navy. 4k
of the bill before the
The formidable majority in the House of Commons, who ad.
5 th of next month, and leaving the
hered to the late ministers, after their dismission from his majesty's
exchequer empty, his honourable friend would be the last
service, made the immediate dissolution of parliament, in the
Juan to make the motion then before the House; and he was
public opinion, an event almost inevitable. The passing of the
sure there was not a man then within hearing, could be so
land-tax bill was a previous step necessarily to be taken. This
absurd or so wicked as to give it countenance: but when gen-
bill had been twice read, and on Saturday the zoth of December
tlemen recollected that the bill had only one stage more to
was ordered for the third reading, but as the committee on the
pass through in that, House, and that this was only the 19th
state of the nation was to sit on the Monday following, the ma-
of December, they must laugh at the idea that delaying the
jority did not think it prudent to suffer this instrument of delay
third reading till Monday, would prevent its passing till the
to pass out of their hands, until they had taken some further mea-
sures for their security. On Friday the 19th, Mr. Baker moved,
5 th of next month. Indeed, it might be attended with one
that the House at its rising should adjourn to
i nconvenience, which however was not a mighty one; it was,
_Monday; upon which
Mr. Dundas moved, that the House should only adjourn till to,
merely this, that the lords might possibly be kept two or
morrow. His reason, he said, for this was, that the land-tax bill,
three days longer from their country seats and their pleasures.
which had this day been reported, stood for the third reading ;
But gentlemen would think it much better at this moment,
and it was of the utmost consequence to the nation that it should
when such calamities were hanging over the country; when,
pass with all imaginable speed. Every one knew that on the 5th
by a rash, inconsiderate, and dangerous measure, the parlia-
of January great payments must be made ; and how could they be
ment was brought, if report was to be credited, to nearly the
made, unless the bill by which the money was to be raised should
eve of a dissolution, gentlemen, he said, would think it much
pass before that day ? Did gentlemen wish to strike at the very
hotter to subject the House to that inconvenience, than to
root of public credit? They could not surely desire that the
creditors of the public should be disappointed in the payment
leave their country exposed to the dreadful calamities that a
of the interest due to them for the money advanced by them to
dissolution would draw clown upon the nation. He confessed
the public.
he was struck with astonishment, that there could be found
in the kingdom a subject daring enough to advise his sove-
reign to so desperate a measure. He meant not to question
the prerogative of the crown in dissolving parliament, hilt
.!* The following is a List of the New Administration.
no one would, on the other hand, question the undoubted
First Lord of the Treasury, and Chancellor of the Exchequer — Right Hon.
right of that House -to call ministers to account for any
William Pitt.
Secretary of State for the Foreign Department — Marquis of Carmarthen.
wanton or imprudent. exercise of that prerogative. No one
Ditto for the Home Department — Lord Sydney.
would say that such a prerogative ought to be exercised
President of the Council—Earl Gower (succeeded by Lord Camden)
merely to suit the convenience of an ambitious young man:
Lord Privy Seal — Duke of Rutland (succeeded by Earl Gower).
and he there in the face of the House declared, that if a
First Lord of the Admiralty— Lord Howe.
Lord Chancellor — Lord Thurlow.
dissolution should take place, and very solid, substantial,
and satisfactory reasons were not assigned for it, he would,
The above composed the Cabinet.
Master-General of the Ordnance—Duke of Richmond.
if he should have the honour .of a seat in the next parlia-
Attorney-General — Lloyd Kenyon, Esq. (afterwards Lord Kenyon).
ment, move a very serious enquiry into the business, and
Solicitor-General — Richard Pepper Arden, Esq. (afterwards Lord Al.
bring the advisers of it to account. At present it would.
vanley).
render gentlemen in some degree accomplices in the guilt of
Joint Paymaster of the Forces Right Hon. William Wyndham Gren-
a dissolution without cause, to stiffer the land-tax bill to go
ville (afterwards Lord Grenville), Lord Mulgrave..
Treasurer of the Navy — Henry Dundas, Esq. (afterwards Lord Melville).
out of their hands, until they should have taken such measures
Secretary at War — Sir George Yonge, Bart.
as would guard against the evils which might be expected
Secretaries to the Treasury — George Rose, Esq. Thomas Steele, Esq.
from a dissolution.
Lord Lieutenant of Ireland — Duke of Rutland.
Secretary to ditto— Thomas Orde, Esq.
VOL. II.
X
3o6
CHANGE OF INIINISTRY, &c.
[Dec 19.
1783.]
CHANGE OP IVINISTRY, &C.
307
Mr. Bankes supported the amendment : lie said, that to dissolve
deterred from dissolving parliament by the voice of the peo-
or not to dissolve the parliament was in the breast of the king,
ple of England ? Possibly the learned gentleman might answer
and it was no bad symptom of the justice and propriety of his
in the affimative; but he would tell him, that he must be a
majesty's choice of ministers, that in case of a dissolution, he made
an appeal to his people, to learn from the elections whether his
bold minister indeed, who should dare to despise the voice of
choice met with their approbation. Mr. Arden said, that he must
the people. Premature dissolutions were at all times dan-
be a timid Man indeed, and unfit to be the minister of this country,
gerous; but at this time they were so in a more peculiar
who should be deterred from a dissolution by a resolution of that
manner. How stood the country with respect to foreign
House upon a question of their own continuation or annihilation;
powers; how stood we with our dependencies ; what foreign
for they were not to be the judges whether the dissolution, sup.
power would treat with a crovermnent in which there was no
posing it to have taken place, was or was not a wrong measure;
stability, no permanency These frequent changes would
that question was to be determined by another House of Commons;
expose us to the contempt of foreigners, render us and our
by whom it was possible the dissolution might be applauded instead
government the laughing-stock of Europe, and reduce every
of being condemned.
thing at home to a state of anarchy and confusion, that might
Mr. Fox said he would not have risen again, if he had
make this country feel all the horrors of a civil war, short of
not been in some measure compelled to it, by a strange doc-
bloodshed. Future governments might think themselves
trine which he had heard advanced by the learned gentle-
Secure, when acting upon principle and for the good of the
man who just sat clown, against which he would take that
public, when ambitious young men might rise up, and grasp-
opportunity to enter his protest. He would barely take
ing at power, plunge into the most desperate measures to
notice in the outset, of the indecent levity, to use no other
obtain it. They might be assisted in this by secret influence;
term, with which the learned gentleman treated the votes of
and if they should venture to think for themselves, and refuse
to
that House, which though he might not approve, he ought
be the slaves or tools of advisers whom they did not see,
to treat with a little more respect. But what he meant chiefly
the same secret influence which raised them, would as easily
to take notice of was the. expression, " that he must be a
pull them clown. An honourable member said, that his ma-
timid man indeed, and unfit to he the minister of this country,
jesty would appeal to his people for the approbation of his
who should be deterred from a dissolution of parliament, by a
choice of ministers, which he was to learn from the elections :
resolution of the House of Commons." He thought that the
this he thought would not prove a very successful manner of
learned gentleman, who had studied the constitution, ought to
getting their approbation; however, upon the popularity of
have known that the voice of the House of Commons was the
that bill, which had been rejected by the lords, lie would build
voice of the people of England, at least as long as it did not
his hopes of success; he was determined to meet a popular
appear to be contradicted by the people. There was at the
election; he believed there was not a more unbiassed, inde-
learned gentleman's elbow, another learned gentleman (Mr.
pendent, or numerous body of electors in the kingdom than
those of the city which he had now
Dundas) who had told him, that if there were petitions on
the honour to represent,
and
the table from every county, city, and borough in the king-
to those electors he would again offer himself; nor was
afraid
in consequence of that bill, he should lose their
dom, still it was not from these petitions, but from the House
confidence.
of Commons, that the sentiments of the people of England
could be learned. Without going that length, he would say,
The
that in the present case there was the strongest presumptive
amendment was rejected, and the original motion agreed.
tto.
evidence, that the voice of that House was the voice of the
people ; for, notwithstanding all that had been said against
the India bill, two petitions only, one from London, the other
December 22.
from Chipping Wycomb, had been presented against it by
Soon after the Speaker had taken the chair, Mr. William Gren.
the constituents of any member in that House; and from this
Ville requested the House would for a moment favour him with
it might fairly be inferred, that as to the passing of that bill,
their attention on a subject, which, though of private concern to
him
the people of England were with that House, and that it spoke
individually, was more particularly interesting to the House.
their voice. Would the learned gentleman say, that he
Certain reports, he said, which had been for some days in circula-
tion, had been made the grounds of
would be a timid minister who should suffer himself to be
a resolution in that House,
Which he understood had been since construed to relate to a noble
X 2
308
CHANGE OE MINISTRY, &C.
[Dec. 22;
1783.]
CHANCE OP MINISTRY, &C.
309
lord with whom he was most closely connected in blood, (Earl
Temple ;) and as he also understood that some farther proceeding
Of affairs : the maintenance of the public credit, and the support of
was to be had that day on the same subject, which might possibly
the revenue, demand the most immediate attention : the disorders
prevailing in the government of the East Indies, at home and
be directed against that noble lord, he was authorized by his noble
abroad, call aloud for instant reformation ; and the state of the
relation to say, that he was ready to meet any charge that should
East India company's finances, from the pressing demands upon
be brought against him ; and that he might not be `supposed
them, require a no less immediate support and assistance from
make his situation as minister stand in the way of or serve as a
parliament :— that his majesty's faithful commons are at present
protection or shelter from enquiry and from justice, lie had that
proceeding with the utmost diligence upon these great objects of
day resigned into his majesty's hands the seals of office with which
government, as recommended to their attention by his majesty's
his majesty had so lately been pleased to honour him ; so that his
gracious speech froth the throne, but which must necessarily be
noble relation was now in his private capacity, unprotected by the
frustrated and disappointed by the delay attending a dissolution,
influence of office, ready to answer for his conduct, whenever he
and most especially the affairs of the East Indies, by the assembling
should hear the charge that should be brought against it.
of a new parliament, not prepared, by previous enquiry, to enter,
with equal effect, upon an object involving long and intricate
Mr. Fox said, that as to the propriety of the noble lord's
details, which his majesty's faithful commons have investigated,
relinquishing his situation, he himself was certainly the best
for two years past, with the most laborious, earnest, and unre-
judge : he knew why he accepted, he knew why he retired
mitting attention : — that his majesty's faithful commons, deeply
from office ; but certainly no one had said that any reso-
affected by these important considerations, impressed with the
lution would be levelled at the noble lord, and his lordship
highest reverence and affection for his majesty's person, and anxious
must have been aware of this, for the nature of the trans-
to preserve the lustre and safety of his government, do humbly
action to which the reports alluded was such, as almost neces-
beseech his majesty, to suffer his-faithful commons to proceed on
sarily precluded the possibility of bringing evidence that
the business of the session, the furtherance of which is so essen-
tially necessary to the prosperity of the public ; and that his ma-
would convict the noble lord, or any other person, of the
jesty will be graciously pleased to hearken to the advice of his
charge which naturally arose from the rumours. But though
faithful commons, and not to the secret advices of particular per-
this evidence was wanting, and though the noble lord had
sons, who may have private interests of their own, separate from
resigned, still he was of opinion the House ought not to give
the true interests of his majesty and his people."
up the idea of going into . a committee on the state of the
The language used by the partizans of the new administration,
nation, in which a 'learned friend of his (Mr. Erskine) in-
in the debate on the 1 9 th, and their eagerness in pressing the
tended to make a motion, which, without any mention of
third reading of the tax bills, left no room to doubt of their inten-
tion to dissolve the parliament as soon as that necessary step was
the noble lord, would guard against the fatal effects of that
secured. But on this day there appeared some. marks of inde-
baneful secret influence that threatened the existence of the
cision, at least, if not of a total desertion of that design ; and this
constitution.
change in the counsels of government was supposed to have been
the real cause of the sudden resignation that had been just an-
The House then resolved itself into a committee of the whole
nounced to the House. Mr. Dundas, who was soon after made
House, to consider of the state of the nation, in which, after a most
treasurer of the navy, and Mr. Bankes the private confidential
able speech, Mr. Erskine moved, that the chairman be directed
friend of the chancellor of the exchequer, assured the committee
to move the Ilouse, " That an humble address be presented to
that there was no intention in government to interrupt the present
his majesty-, humbly to represent to his majesty, that his majesty's
proceedings of parliament, either by dissolution or prorogation ;
most dutiful and loyal subjects, the commons of Great Britain,
and the latter gentleman particularly added, that he had authority
in parliament assembled, think themselves bound in duty humbly
from his friend to declare, that if such, a measure should be pro-
to represent to his majesty, that alarming reports of an intended
posed in his majesty's council, he would oppose it ; and if it should
dissolution of parliament have gone forth:-.that his majesty's
be carried against his opinion, lie would immediately resign his
faithful commons, dutifully acknowledging the wisdom of the con-
office.
stitution, in trusting to the crown that just and legal prerogative:
and fully confiding in his majesty's royal wisdom and paternal care
of his people, for the most beneficial exercise of it, desire, with
Mr. Fox begged that gentlemen would excuse him, if, not-
treat humility, to represent to his majesty the inconveniences and
withstanding the positive assurances that had been given by
dangers which appear to them, from a consideration of the state
the two last speakers, be still continued of opinion that the, ad-
of the nation, likely to follow from a prorogation or dissolution
dress ought to be carried. He had a great deal of reliance
of the parliament in the present arduous and .critical, conjuncture
upon the honour and integrity of the right honourable gentle-
•
X3
310
CHANGE OF MINISTRY, &C.
[Dec. 22.
1783.]
CHANGE OF MINISTRY, &C.
3I I
man alluded to ; though he could not say he had much depen-
he might know nothing until he felt the effects of it. The
deuce upon his steadiness ; for to see men on one day accept-
right honourable gentleman no doubt meant to keep his word;
ing official situations, and the next day resigning them, afford-
but if he should find that by a. prevaleney of secret influence,
ed very little hope of that stability which at all times, but more
the dissolution of parliament should hereafter, unknown to him,
particularly in the present, was necessary to give effect to any
be resolved on, it would be a very small satisfaction indeed to
establishment that it should be thought proper to propose.
the public, amidst the sufferings which such a measure would
But the very means by which the power of the present advisers
bring upom them, that the right honourable gentleman meant
of the crown had been obtained, might deprive them of it:
well, and had been himself deceived. It was the duty of the
that secret influence, which had made them ministers, might
committee to adopt a measure which would guard the consti-
in the end operate to their downfal. The resignation of a
tution against the baneful consequences of secret influence, and
noble lord, which had been that day announced to the House,
banish it for ever from about the throne.
had very little weight with him; it could not make him re-
nounce any one measure that he had in contemplation before
Mr. Bankes said, that after such a promise as he had made in the
name of his right honourable friend, the committee might rest as-
he heard of that event; nay, if it should have any influence at
sured, that if' any idea of a dissolution, or prorogation of parliament
all upon him, it would be to make him think the address still
should be seriously entertained any. where, his right honourable
more necessary, for he looked upon that noble lord as more
friend would unquestionably do what the right honourable gentle-
dangerous now, than when he held an ostensible situation in
man over against him would most certainly do in a similar case,
government. When he was a minister of the crown, he was
he would resign.
responsible for his conduct, and for the advice he should give;
but now being out of office, he might, as a peer of parliament,
Mr. Fox said, that this could not be pressed upon the com-
avail himself of that character, and, unperceived, whisper an
mittee as a reason that should induce them to give up the ad-
advice to his sovereign, that might in a moment produce those
dress. He had not a doubt but the right honourable gentle-
events, which the right honourable gentleman, not now a
man would act properly and spiritedly on the occasion ; but
member of this House, was willing to pledge himself should
what compensation would his resignation be to the public, for
never be brought about through his means. It was impossible,
the evils which a dissolution would bring upon them ? There
therefore, for him to consent that the address should be with-
was not a moment to be lost; the delay of a day might be at-
drawn ; because lie ought not in duty to suffer, as far as lay in
tended with the most serious consequences; and therefore he
hint as an individual member of that House, any thing to be
hoped that a very short adjournment, if any at all, would take
left undone which might prevent all those calamities which
place. The gentlemen who had sacrificed their domestic en-
must necessarily be the consequence of a dissolution of parlia-
joyments at this season of the year to their regard for the con-
ment. Not one argument had been urged to induce him to
stitution, he hoped would complete the great work they had so
think that the address ought to be withdrawn : indeed no one
well begun.
had attempted to adduce any such argument; and as he saw
the address was in every syllable of it unexceptionable, and
It was at length resolved, without a division, that the address, as
proposed by Mr. Erskine, should be presented to the king by the
that it was not opposed from any quarter of the House, he cer-
whole house.
tainly was of opinion that it ought to be carried. He declared
that he meant no disrespect to the right honourable gentleman
December 24.
who had lately been placed at the head of affairs, in refusing
to take his word that the parliament -would not be dissolved;
The House of Commons went up to St. James's, and his majesty
as
being seated on the throne, the Speaker presented their address,
far as that gentleman was concerned, he would readily take
to which his majesty returned the following answer:
his word : but in reality, if he himself were now in the situation
" Gentlemen, It has been my constant object to employ the au-
which the right honourable gentleman filled, knowing as much
thority entrusted to me by the constitution, to its true and only
as he did know of the power of secret influence, he would
end, the good of my people; and I am always happy in concurring
not ask any man to take his word ; because he did not know
with the wishes and opinions of my faithful commons. I agree with
but at the very moment when he might be declaring that the
you in thinking that the support of the public credit and revenue
parliament would not be dissolved, that very measure might be
must demand your most earnest and vigilant care. The state of
resolved upon in consequence of
the
some secret advice, of which
East Indies is also an object of as much delicacy and importance
4
3 12
CHANGE OF MINISTRY, 8L-C.
[Dec. 24.
5783.]
STATE OF THE NATION.
313
as can exercise the wisdom and justice of parliament. I trust you
t alked of the weakness of young men in accepting offices under
will proceed in those considerations with all convenient speed, after
the present circumstances of affairs, and he mentioned their
such an adjournment as the present circumstances ma y
bt3o
youth as the only possible excuse for their rashness. How-
qu re ; and I assure you I shall not interrupt your m eeting
, any
i
ever, as they came in the avowed champions of the House of'
exercise of my prerogative, either of prorogation or dissolution."
Lords against the sense of the House of Commons, it would be
The Speaker having read the said answer to the House,
necessary to proceed as early as possible in the business on
Mr. Fox said, that though by his majesty's answer to the ad-
which the committee on the state of the nation was to sit, and
dress, the House had assurance that they should not be pre-
to take such steps as should be thought prudent and salutary,
vented from meeting again by either a prorogation or dissolu-
to guard against the evils that might be apprehended from the
tion of parliament, still the assurance went no farther than the
secret influence to which the new ministers were not ashamed
meeting after the recess. His majesty's present ministers had
to owe their own situations. They did not seem to understand
been, it seemed, driven from their intention to dissolve the
a pretty broad hint from that House, how improper it would
parliament; none of them had been found daring enough to
be for them to come into power ; it would, perhaps, require a
advise his majesty to take so desperate a step ; but how soon
broader one to convince them of the necessity of retiring,-and
after the next meeting they might venture so to do, he could
therefore it might be proper to come to some pointed resolu-
.not foresee; they were resolved however to prevent the House
tion after the holidays, in order to secure the House against a
as long as they could from proceeding to business ; for by
dissolution; he was of opinion, therefore, that they ought not
moving writs at present, they would make such a number
to adjourn beyond the 8th of January.
of
vacancies in it, that would furnish themselves with an argu-
ment against proceeding early to business; for they would have
The house then went into the committee on the state of the
nation. Upon the motion of Lord Beauchamp, the chairman was
it in their power to say, that it would not be decent to proceed
directed to move the House, and it was resolved accordingly, " That
during the absence of so many persons as had been sent to an
the commissioners of the treasury ought not to give their consent
election. The state of the country, however, would not admit
to the acceptance of any bills drawn, or to be drawn from India,
of a long recess, for ns the present ministers could not stand
until it shall be made to appear to this House, that sufficient means
long, (and indeed to talk of the stability and permanency of their
can be provided for the payment of the same, when they respective-
government would only be to laugh at and insult them,)itwould
ly fall due, by a regular application of the clear effects of the corn-
be necessary to move for another set of writs after the holidays
pany, after discharging in their regular course the customs and
in the room of those who, on the formation of another minis-
other sums due to the public, and the current demands upon
try, should vacate their seats. Therefore, in order to prevent
the company, or until this House shall otherwise direct." It was
next resolved, on the motion of the Earl of Surrey, " That an ad-
the calamities that were likely to befit' the country and
dress be presented to his majesty, that he will be graciously pleased
threaten the constitution, he would propose that the recess
not to grant the offices of chancellor of the duchy of Lancaster, for
should be as short as possible; he thought it could not well be
any other term than during pleasure, before the zoth of January
for less than a fortnight, and therefore he was of opinion that
next." After these motions had passed Mr. Fox said, that he
the House should adjourn first to Friday, when he understood
would not press the adjournment to the 8th, but would move that
it would be necessary to meet again for the purpose of moving
the committee do sit again on the tzth of January next.
some writs, and then to the 8th of January. It might be said,
that knowing as he did that the ministry could not stand long,
this was sp ewing himself impatient to be restored to office: he
did not know that he should snake one of the next administra-
tion, but he confessed that he was impatient that the
MR. Fox's MOTION FOR RESUMING THE COMMITTEE ON THE
sense of
that I-louse might be soon taken
STATE OF THE NATION.
OD the present ministers ; that
they might soon learn, either that they had the confidence of
the House, without which no ministry could last, or that
janUary I2. 178 4.
they
had not; this was highly necessary to the public good, and
THE expectation of the public was now fixed with great anxiety
therefore the sooner the people should have a stable govern-
on the meeting of parliament after the recess. A contest be-
ment, let it be composed of whom it might, the better. He
tween the-executive government and the House of Commons was a
314
STATE OF THE NATION.
[Jan. 1 2.
1784.]
STATE OF THE NATION.
315
spectacle, that, since the accession of the present famil3Zeute
nill."
!cum declarations, to direct their attention without delay to the
throne, bad not been exhibited in this kingdom ; and many
affairs of the East India Company, Mr. Pitt implored the House to
stances concurred to render the present peculiarly interesting and
postpone, at least for a short time, the introduction of measures, that
important. The matter in dispute . was of the very essentials of the
might retard or throw any difficulties in the way of this important
constitution, and could not be decided without considerably affect.
consideration. He said, he was then ready to bring forward his
ing its bias. In defence of the authority of the House of Commons,
plan for the better regulation of the company's affairs; that he
were ranged the united abilities of two powerful parties, long exer-
challenged a comparison between his, and the bill lately rejected
ciscd by mutual contests in all the arts of political warfare. The
by the lords ; and that he desired to stand or fall by the merits or
champion of prerogative, was a person not less distinguished by
demerits of the measures he should propose. In answer to these
u
his splendid talents, and the unexampled rapidity of his rise to
arguments,
power, than by the courage and perseverance he had already de.
monstrated in the cause lie now stood foremost to support. By the
Mr. Fox, rose and said :— It is, Sir, without much pro-
natural effects of ministerial influence upon the House of COM.
priety that the right honourable gentleman deprecates harsh
moons, a sufficient number of members joined the new administra-
terms and censure upon ministers, when he has so long and
tion, to make their amount nearly equal in point of votes to those
with so much asperity attacked those who now sit on this side
in opposition. The inferiority, both in this and some other respects,
the House. It is rather unjust and partial in him to depre-
under which the minister laboured, was perhaps more than balanced
by his being obliged to act on the defensive only ; a situation of
cate that in others which he has so profusely practised himself;
infinite advantage, when combined with the power to chuse his own
but he may be assured that I shall not deal much in asperity
moment of shifting the scene of battle, by an appeal to the people.
and crimination. I shall endeavour to discharge my duty whe-
It was reasonably to be expected, that they would range themselves
ther I am here, or at the other side of the House with perfect
on that side with which their own weight and importance in the
candour and 1i:finless. I wish not to give any delay to the
state was necessarily connected ; and the only hopes he could en-
India business. It is the duty of the House to go into the dis-
tertain of drawing them from their natural interest was, by excit-
cussion of it without loss of time, and I wish them to go to it
ing a jealousy of the designs, and of the dangerous strength and
as soon as it is possible for them to go to it with any probabi-
power of his adversaries. This had been done with extraordinary,
and almost incredible industry, and with a success still more ex-
lity of success. To do that, we must go to it with freedom,
traordinary. Every advantage, therefore, gained by Opposition,
we must go to it unembarrassed, and that I aver we cannot do,
every point they carried, became a fresh cause of suspicion to the
while thZ danger of a dissolution of parliament hangs over our
people; and the minister, by a judicious choice of his ground, had
heads. That we are under this danger, is clear from the whole
always the chance of putting his adversaries in the wrong, in their
of the conduct of ministers since they came into office. The
attacks upon him.
answer of the throne to the address clearly speaks this language
In this state of things, both Houses met on the t ath of January
to the House: " If you dare to assert an opinion of your own,
1784. As soon as the Speaker had taken the chair, Mr. Fox, in
nay if you do not without any argument or reason change your
order to get possession of the House, and to prevent any other bu-
sentiment on this ground, you shall be dissolved ; but if you
siness from being brought forward by the minister, before certain
resolutions that had been prepared, were discussed in the committee
do change your opinion, if you do support the ministers of the
of the state of the nation, moved for the order of the day. He was
day you may live—Long life and prosperity• to the present
here interrupted by the new members who were brought up to be
parliament !"
sworn ; and as soon as that business was over, the chancellor of the
The right honourable gentleman had called himself the mi-
exchequer rose at the samemoment with Mr. Fox, declaring he had
nister of the crown, and never, perhaps, was a name given with
a message to deliver from the king. A great clamour immediately
more propriety, for he was the minister of the crown, —at least
arose in the House, who should be heard first; which was at length
he was not the minister of the House of Commons. If he was
ended, by the Speaker's deciding in favour of Mr. Fox. The ques-
not the minister of the crown or rather of the advisers of the
tion, whether the House should resolve itself into a committee on the
state of the nation, was then debated. The grounds on which this
crown, he was not the minister of the country. But it was
was opposed by the minister and his friends, were the violent and
said—what—would you interfere with the prerogative of the
unprecedented measures adopted by the committee on a former oc-
crown? It is the prerogative of the crown to dissolve the par-
casion, and the little probability that appeared, from the present
liament. Now, it had been denied by many great lawyers that
temper of the House, that their proceedings would in future be con-
there was a prerogative of the crown to dissolve the parliament
ducted with less violence and passion. As parliament stood pledged,
during a session, and while business and petitions were pend-
as well from the duty they owed their country, as by their Own 50"
ing. Of this, however, he was certain, that there had not been
f 7 84.]
316
STATE OF THE NATION.
[Jan.
STATE OP THE NATION.
317
an instance since the Revolution, of any such exercise of
per resolution to guard themselves against this danger, that
the
prerogative, if it did exist. Amidst all the contentions of par_
lie was anxious to go into the committee : but, says the ho-
ty since that glorious period, the parliament had never been
hourable gentleman, it is not right to disturb government ;
dissolved during the business of a session. In the reigns of
we ought not to have opposition, " delirant re es, pleciuntur
the miserable family of the Stuarts this sort of violence was
^iclLivi;" if he might be permitted to give the political, instead
not uncommon. Charles I. had-done it; Cluirles II.
of the direct and classical meaning of this text of Horace, he
had done
it; James II. had done it; and it was remembered, —he hoped
should say it was that the ministers of the king go mad, and
engraven on the minds of Englishmen,—that when this vio-
the people suffer for it. He had no wish to make the situa-
lent measure was last perpetrated, which was as he said by
don of ministers unpleasant to them ; but he desired at the
James- II. that monarch had not been allowed to meet another.
same time that their own situation should be secure. He de-
He dissolved 'one parliament in the middle of a session, and
sired that they might go into the committee to make it im-
it put a period to his violations of the constitution and to his
practicable for ministers to dissolve the parliament. He
reign. Great authorities, as he had said, had declared it as
knew that this had been thrown out as the design of minis-
their opinion, that the crown did not possess this prerogative.
ters, to intimidate the House, that they meant to do this.
Lord Somers, for instance, in a pamphlet which he published,
How had their implicit panegyrist said, if there was not
asserted the doctrine; and he quoted Lord Somers, because
majority they would go down again to the people ; they would
he was said to be the type of him who now held the seals. To
appeal to the people ; and they stood better with the people
be sure, there were points in which the resemblance was pecu-
than their opponents, — a story of which he did not believe
liarly striking. In some, however, it failed, as in the particu-
one word. He fancied that this measure might depend on
lar of his succeeding to the seals after they had been held by a
the issue of the question of that day,—he believed that if mi-
jobbing commission. This was an imputation which the
nisters found the House of Commons firm in their integrity,
rankest enemies of the late commissioners could not alledge
— that they were not to be shaken by any, or by all the
against them, as was another to which the first commission
temptations which were held out, then he would be bound to
was subject, that delay had been grievous to the suitors. This
say there would be no dissolution, thr they would not ven-
was an imputation which would not be brought against the
ture to meet the consequence of a House of Commons ren-
late commissioners, whose regularity, alacrity, judgment and
dered so vigorous by honesty and determination : but if they
fairness, had been the subject of universal praise. Whether
found them waver, if they found them timorous and unsettled,
it might not be ascribed to others more pompously held forth
or corrupt and tractable, dispositions which lie did not be-
as the patterns of Lord Somers, he could not say. But the pre-
lieve the present House of Commons would ever be found in,
sent holder of the seals was like this great character, for Lord
then the parliament would be dissolved ; for though they
Somers was remarkable for the affability, the mildness, the po-
might gain a particular question, they would not think them-
liteness of his manners; he was all gentleness and condescen-
selves sufficiently fortified without a dissolution : and if they
sion ; active and indefatigable in the performance of his
went down again to the people, he assured the House, they
duties ; burning with the love of liberty, and zealous in the
would depend more on certain advantages in certain market-
cause of the people. These, undoubtedly, were the pecu-
able boroughs, than on the opinion of the people.
liar characteristics of the present holder of the seals ; and
But why not suffer the right honourable gentleman to move
be, no doubt, imitating the great example of his archetype,
for his bill first, and go into the committee on the state of
equally inflamed with the sacred enthusiasm of liberty, would
the nation afterwards? For the clearest of all possible reasons.
stand up and declare, that it was not consistent with the king's
Because, if they were suffered to pursue this course, they
prerogative to dissolve the parliament during the sitting of a
feel the pulse of the House, and finding it is disagreeable to
session. Lord Somers supported this opinion on the act of
them, the next day dissolve the parliament; whereas by going
King Richard H. Mr. Fox said he could not go with him
into the committee, steps might be taken to guard against a
b
that length : he was not lawyer enough to enter 'on the sub-
measure so inimical to the true interests of the country.
ject; but he did think that the necessity must be great indeed,
The bill to be brought in by the right honourable gentle-
which could justify the advisers of the crown in a measure so
man, if he might argue from the resolutions, and ideas thrown
violent and alarming as that at the best must be.
out in the public newspapers, was, in his mind, subject to in.:
It was for the purpose of moving a very necessary. and pro-
finitely more reprobation than the bill lately thrown out. It
318
STATE OF THE NATION.
[Jan. 12.
084.]
STATE OF TUE NATION.
319
arrogated more influence, and it was an influence more dan_
But it was said, what evidence have you of this besides that of
gerous because less open and avowed. It was a secret, in op-
rumour ? To this he would say, that he had rumours so
position to-a public, responsible influence. The bill infringed
strong, so substantiated, that it was impossible to withhold
on all the chartered rights of the company, for the menaced
credit from them. In every corner they met one. He and
violation of which he had been so loudly censured. It gave
his noble friends were ministers at that time, and they had no
to the ministers all the patronage of his scheme, but it perpe,
authority to contradict the rumour. Those men who were the
tuated the abuses which his bill intended to remove. With
authors, or given out as the authors of the rumours, were
every imputation of violence it had not the merit of efficacy,
in that House, or there were persons nearly connected with
for it went to the establishment of a distracted government,
them there, and they did not when called upon come forward
the disunion of which would be its weakness. It followed Mr.
to contradict the story. All this was pretty strong evidence
Dundas's bill in the creation of a third secretary of state, and
that the rumour was true. But, to be sure, it was below the
it did very little more than renew the bill of r 7 3o. It pos-
dignity of some men to attend to rumours, or to contradict
sessed all that was objected to in the late bill, without con-
them ; yet it was to be remembered that the House upon that
taining anv of that matter which was commended. It was to
rumour had addressed the throne.
give an addition of patronage without energy, and of go-
" But it was no new thing for men not in office to give his
vernment without unity ; it was impossible, in his mind, that
majesty advice." Perhaps not; but it was a new thing for men
the House of Commons could agree to this bill, or to any
having given such advice to come forward, and use tile royal
such bill, and he had too high an opinion of them to believe
name to influence votes. " 4 Oh, but this is nothing," say they,
that it would ever be carried into effect.
if they avow their advice." To this he answered, that it was
It was said, that he had got possession of the House by ma-
something very material; for when any others than those who
nagement, and that it was unfair ; he conceived it to be the con-
were by their office and duty responsible, advised the king,
trary. This day was appointed for going into the committee
their acknowledgment depended on their precarious mag-
on the state of the nation, and in order to prevent confusion,
nanimity, a dependence which the constitution would not
in order that it might not be made merely.what it had been
respect.
called, a question of strength, he had come down early to move
An honourable gentleman (Mr. Powys) had talked of his
for the order of the day, that the House might come regularly
inordinate ambition. He confessed he was ambitious; but if
to a question which he intended to move in the committee.
his ambition was inordinate, who, after a pretty long parlia- -
But if the present ministers were disagreeable, why, it was
mentary attention, aspired only to the second place, what
said, not move for their dismission ? He did not think this
must the quality of the present minister's ambition be, who
was the precise way ; he thought it was more advisable to give
aspired to the first place, and who disdained subordination?
the most decided disapprobation of the principles upon which
The honourable gentleman rejoiced, he said, that he saw
they came into place; and that they had done. They had
none of those in ate cabinet who brought on the American
declared those principles to be unconstitutional, and that they
war. He supposed he meant that he saw none of those in the
had come in on terms as disgraceful to themselves, as they
House, for it so happened, that the chancellor of the exche-
were alarming to the country. An honourable gentleman
quer was the only minister in that House, and he certainly
had rejoiced in his absence before the recess, and indeed it
was free from the American war ; but the honourable gentle-
was favourable to his repose that he was so; for thinking as
man must see with strange eyes indeed, if he saw no members
he did of ministers, wishing them well, and meaning to sup-
in the present cabinet who contributed to the loss of America.
port them, itmust have been grating to him to have observed
His eyes at least were different, for he could see several who
the low and shameful means by which they got into office; he
Were most deeply involved in it.
had wished that the late bill had been thrown out by any
But the honourable gentleman still wished for more coalitions.
other branch of the legislature; this was really ingenious; be
It had always been his idea, that there were, in cases of politi-
never heard an obscurity more oratorically argued; but it was
cal variance and objection, but two means to be used. The one
this to which he in particular objected : it was thrown out
was, in case of delinquency, to inflict public censure, and where
ostensibly by the House of Lords; but actually by the secret
that was not pursued, public oblivion. This had been his
influence of the crown. It was by means of secret influence
motive in coalescing with the noble lord; but in so doing he
unconstitutionally exerted that this had been accomplished.
had lost the good opinion of the honourable gentleman ; a
320
STATE OF THE NATION'.
[Jan. tz.
1784.]
STATE OF THE NATION.
321
matter very dear to him. He had many great friends, how.
ever, who agreeing with
of the House. If it was a trial of strength, it was whether
him in his idea, had their sentiments
on other topics, and who might say to him, "
this country was in future to be governed by a ministry sup-
6 What, would
you listen to the invitation of this honourable gentleman, and-
ported by that House, or by the secret advisers of the crown ?
This was the question at issue, and he trusted it would be very
coalesce with men who support secret influence? Would you
coalesce with men who disdain to stand on the influence of
soon decided.
In regard to the prerogatives of the crown, if from the lit-
good opinion, on the sentiments of the people, on the con&
tle that he had read he might be allowed to state ark opi-
deuce of parliament ? Would you forget all the doctrines in
nion, those who had read more, and spent their lives better,
which you have been bred? Would you creep into office by the
might be able to correct him ; but it was his idea,. that the
back stairs, which you so loudly, and, .as we think, so justly
reprobate? Or,
rights of the crown, as well as the rights of parliament,
to take these men with whom you are invited to
join, even on their best plea ; would you make part of an ad:
were not always to be exercised, merely because they were
ministration which stands on the House of Lords, in preference'
rights. For instance, it was the privilege of the House of
to the House ofCom mons? You who have constantly reprobated
Commons to refuse supplies to the crown, and nobody would
the principle of secret influence; you who have always declared
dispute it; but it was like many of the prerogatives of the
that you could only pay respect to,
crown, a privilege which could not be put into practice with-
or take a share in, that
government which flowed from the opinion of the ninny, and
out much confusion; for who was to suffer?_ The supplies
not from the personal favour of the advising few; would you so
were granted to the king first undoubtedly ; but they came
fur forget the habits in which you have been bred, as at last to'
to the people at last, and they must suffer if they did not
coalesce with those who have become the instruments of this
come. It was so with the prerogative of dissolving the par-
accursed, abhorred secret influence ? We cannot believe phi
liament during a session; it was so with the right of the
to be capable of such atrocious apostacy from all principle:"
crown to appoint ministers not possessing the confidence of
the people. The theory of our constitution consisted in
This he imagined would be their language, and he thought,
checks, in oppositions; in one part of our legislature bearing
jthough he might not go so far himself, they would be perfectly
ustified in this address to him. He was one of those who
up against and controlling another; but it was the practice
imagined that nothing was so injurious as
of good men to moderate the temper of the constitution,
, that men should
conceive perpetual enmities to one another, because they had
and in this practice a happy medium had been hit on at the
been hostile in debate. This he knew was the principle pro-
glorious xra of the Revolution, temperate and accommodating,
pagated by the secret advisers of the crown, because there was
the good effects of which we had experienced for near a cen-
nothing which they hated so much as confidence and connec-
tury; this was the road which many men, now on the oppo-
tion.. To destroy connection, and to prevent it; to separate
site side of the House to him, had set out in. He recalled to
those who were joined, and to keep those asunder who had
their memory the case of Lord Carteret and Mr. Pelham,
accidentally differed, was their great object; for it was only
where the first, a man of more ability than the last, was sup-
by dividing men that they could expect to prevail.
ported by the secret advisers of the crown ; but the Commons
But, says the honourable gentleman, the minister is not
properly addressed the crown to state that he only could be
inordinately ambitious; for last year, in less embarrassing
a minister with effect who had the confidence of the people.
circumstances than the present, he refused 'to
Would the Earl of Chatham have been brought into the
become.-the
minister. It was difficult to say why, having refused last
closet of the king? Would he have meanly condescended to
year, he had accepted of a worse thing this. It could only
join with secret advisers, and have been made the dupe of a
be reconciled on the principle, that a man having refused a
wretched junto? How was he treated by that junto? The
good thing, felt such regret that he dashed into the first bad
moment he became formidable he was attacked; but, by
thing that offered. Perhaps he refused to come
manly determination, he overcame the secret influence, and
in last year,
because then the principle would have been
the king lived to rejoice that he had conquered his preju-
. equivocal. 3 He
came in now, because
dices. When it depended on secret influence, the govern-
in doing so he published a manifesto
exposing the principles on which he acted.
ment never could be lasting, for it was the nature of jealousy
It was said to be a " trial of strength." It was no trial of
t0 be capricious. One would imagine that we could not be
strength between the present ministers and those un his side
jealous of .that person whom we ought only to despise, and
that on this principle
present cabinet would be safe; for
VOL.
322
STATE OP THE NATION.
[Jan. 12,
1784.]
STATE OP THE NATION.
^ 2'
it was composed of men who were in general of that descriP.,
After a warm debate, the House, at half past two in the morning,
divided on Mr. Fox's motion, that the orders of the day be now
tion which folly itself could not be jealous of; but even they
would not escape; by and by they would be suspected in their
read:
turn, and whenever they were established they would be de.
Tellers.
Tellers.
throned. But the present minister and his runners, boasted
L dorMaitland
is.
Mr. Steele
1.
YEAS
tMr. Byng
232—
that he had the complete power, and was enabled to offer
° ES t Mr. R. Smith j 593'
So it was resolved in the affirmative.
peerages and every thing which the crown was entrusted by
As soon as the preceding debate was over, the House, at nearly
the constitution to bestow. Why had not we the favour,
three in the morning, resolved itself into a committee on the state
says he? Because we had the misfortune to have the con-
of the nation; in which Mr. Fox moved, " That it is the Opinion
fidence of the House of Commons. Why have the present
of this committee, that for any person or persons in his majesty's
ministers got it? Because they do not enjoy the confidence of
treasury, or in the exchequer, or in the bank of England, or for
this House. Would any man believe, that the Earl of Chat-'
any person or persons whatsoever, employed in the payment of
ham was personally disagreeable? Surely not; it was because
public money, to pay, or direct or cause to be paid, any sum or
he had the good opinion of his country. They now paid his
sums of money, for or towards the support of services voted in
son a bad compliment, for they took him up because they
the present session of parliament, after the parliament shall have
prorogued or dissolved, if' it be prorogued or dissolved before any
believed him to be unsupported. By and by, he hoped he
act of parliament shall have passed appropriating the supplies to
would become as just an object of jealousy as his great father
such services, will be a high crime and misdemeanor, a daring
was, and he trusted he would:then act as he did. Party was
breach of a public trust, derogatory to the fundamental privileges
vulgarly said to be the madness of many for the advantage of
of parliament, and subversive of the constitution of this country."
a few; but this was the advantage of it; that it gave stability
Also, " That it is the opinion of this committee, that the chairman
to system, and therefore he had always been a party man.
of the committee be directed to move the House, that the bill for
The secret advisers hate parties, not leaders. The question'
punishing mutiny and desertion, and for the better payment of the
Was not who shall be the leader, but on what principles they
army and their quarters, be read a second time on Monday the
23d day of February next." The said resolutions being reported,
shall lead. It was a question therefore that differed from•all
were agreed to by the House.
other party questions; for it was a question of all parties
The immediate dissolution of parliament being thus far rendered
against these secret advisers — between the House and a dark
-
impracticable, two resolutions, of a more direct and hostile nature,
junto. He • called on them therefore to go into the com-
were moved by the Earl of Surrey., The first was in the follow-
mittee on the state of the nation, that they might prevent
ing terms; " That in the present situation of his majesty's domi-
their dissolution ; that they might not let the fears of death
nions, it was peculiarly necessary that there should be an admi-.
perplex their fancy; and when they had come to a resolu-
nistration which had the confidence of that House and the public."
tion which would effectuate this, they might then enter on
It was objected to this resolution, that the name of his majesty had
the India bill with security and spirit. — " But nothing had
been, perhaps accidentally, certainly very improperly omitted ;
and it was proposed by Mr. Dundas to amend the motion, by in-
yet happened to make the dissolution of the parliament
serting instead of the words " This House and the public," the
cessarv." No ! What did that signify ? What, but that some-
following " The crown, the parliament, and the people." As this
thing might happen, which might render it necessary. Let
,‘
amendment was merely proposed for the purpose of pointing out
•
its, said Mr. Fox, go into the committee and render it im-
the factious spirit of the resolution, it was rejected without a di-
possible. Let us preserve the beauty of our constitution;
vision. The second resolution moved by Lord Surrey, was to the
of that happy practicable equilibrium which has all the efficacy
following purport ; " That the late changes in his majesty's coun-
of monarchy, and all the liberty of republicanism, moderat-
cils had been immediately preceded by dangerous and universal
ing the despotism of the one, and the licentiousness of the
reports, that the sacred name of the king had been unconstitu-
other; that which was in theory proved to be fallacious, but
tionally used to affect the deliberations of parliament ; and that
the appointments made were accompanied by circumstances new
which has been since the Revolution, so pure as well as so
and extraordinary, and such as did not conciliate or o-
engae the
effectual. This was his object, and he called upon the House
confidence of that House." The fact principally insisted upon
•to accompany him to the committee.
as the ground oft this resolution, was the rumour, respecting the
Communication made from the king to several peers, touching the
-India bill through Earl Temple. A warm debate took place upon'
Allis motion, in which the most pointed personalities were cast and
Y
3 2 4
MR. PITT'S EAST INDIA BILL.
[Jan. 14•
17'84.]
MR. PITT'S EAST INDIA BILL.
325
retorted from both sides of the House. The coalition was branded
and the decision of the council thereon- should be final and con-
as a corrupt confederacy of two desperate factions, to seize upon
clusive. The nomination of the commander in chief should be
the government of the country ; and the India bill was represented
I
vested in his majesty, and that officer should always be second in
to -have been an experiment made by the late secretary of state,
council. The king should also have the power of removing any
with a view, if not to place the crown on his own head, at least to
governor-general, president, and members of the councils of any
raise himself to a degree of power superior to that of the sovereign,
British settlements in India ; all vacancies in their offices should
On the other hand, the party composing the new administration
be supplied, subject to his majesty's disapprobation, that might be
was described as a coalition, not indeed of parties, but of the shreds
repeated until one was chosen whom he should approve. No order
and remnants, of the dregs and outcasts of parties; as a body
or resolution of any general court of proprietors should have power
collected for the purpose of fighting the battles of secret and un-
to revoke or rescind, or affect any proceeding of the court of di-
constitutional influence, of* trampling on the power and dignity of
rectors, after his majesty's pleasure should have been signified upon
the House of Commons, and of establishing a government of cabal,
the same. Such were the outlines of Mr. Pitt's scheme for the_
intrigue, and favouritism, and of destroying the very principles of
government of India. A great and leading difference between this
laudable ambition and honourable service in- the state. At length,
project and the plan of Mr. Fox, recently rejected by the lords,
about seven o'clock in the morning, the committee divided, for
was that the former left the charter untouched, and the com-
the motion 196, against it 54.
mercial concerns of this corporation of merchants under the sole
management of' the proprietors themselves and the directors of
their choice. By the former bill, the entire transfer of the coin
pony's affairs to commissioners nominated in parliament, and the
permanent duration of their authority for a term of four years,
had occasioned great alarm, as creating a new power dangerous
to the constitution. The object of the present bill was merely
MR. PITT'S EAST INDIA BILL.
control. In supporting his own proposition, Mr. Pitt expressed
his high admiration of that part of Mr. Fox's scheme which r&
January r 4.
spected the zemindars, but he disapproved general indiscriminate
confiscation. He proposed, therefore, that an enquiry should be
T ms day Mr. Pitt moved for leave to bring in a bill " For the
better government and management of the affairs of the East
instituted for the purpose of restoring such as had been irregularly
India compan y." His scheme proposed the appointment of com-
and unjustly deprived, and that they should be secured against
missioners by his majesty, from the members of his privy council,
violence in future. These last provisions were not included in the
who should be authorised and empowered from time to time to
bill which he had prepared for the consideration of the House,
.check, superintend, and control, all acts, operations, and concerns,
hut they formed a part of his general ideas for the reformation of
which related to the civil or military government, or revenues, of
Itlia.— Mr. Dundas having seconded Mr. Pitt's motion for leave
the territorial possessions. Two members of the said board should
to bring in the bill,
be the chancellor of the exchequer and the secretary for the home
department; the board should have access to all the papers of
Mr. Fox rose. He said he wished to meet the right ho-
the company ; and the court of directors should deliver to the
nourable gentleman's ideas, as it would certainly be expected,
board copies of all the proceedings of both courts of directors and
with all the fairness and with all the attention in his power;
proprietors; copies of all dispatches received from the company's
servants in India, and the instructions sent and proposed to be
and he had too much regard for the honour of the House,
sent to India, relating to the civil or military government, or re-
and for the public satisfaction, not to do every thing for bring-
venues of the British territorial possessions. The court of di-
ing in the bill or bills which had then been moved: but
rectors should pay due obedience to the orders of the board,
sure he was, it would soon be obvious in what light the pre-
respecting civil and military government and revenue ; the board,
sent proposition must be viewed by the dispassionate -and
in a limited time, were to return the copies which were received,
impartial. Is it, said he, less or more than the wisdom of
with their approbation, or disapprobation, of the proceedings com-
an individual, however exalted in situation, however distin-
municated ; or proposing amendments if they found them unsa-
guished by ability, however flattered by partizans, or how-
tisfactory. The board was fully to state their reasons, and also
ever confident of his own unrivalled talents, opposed to the,
their farther instructions, to be sent to India without delay. Should
collective wisdom of this House, of the commons of England
the directors conceive any of the orders of the board to be extra-
official, in not relating to the civil, military, and financial govern-
In parliament assembled? I trust the propositions will be
ment of India, to which the bill was limited, they should app ly'' .
considered exclusively in this light, and the fate of them pro-
by petition, to his majesty in council, concerning such injunctiolE;
nounced accordingly.
Y 3
3 26
Ant. PITT'S EAST INDIA BILL.
[Jan. 14.
MIL PITT'S EAST INDIA BILL.
327
1784.]
Much has the right honourable gentleman struggled to fix
litunent for years. What is the power of the directors? Is
a comparison between this measure and the one adopted by
that constitutional? Will any man say that their power ever
his predecessors before the holidays; and, indeed, in what-
interfered with that of the crown ? And is not this the iden-
ever he may think these two bills alike, they arc, and in my
tical power which his majesty's ministers and this House
mind they will appear to the world, essentially distinct. The
would have transferred to a new board?
single feature common to both is the object to which they
I do not know whether I heard the right honourable gen-
both relate : the one leading substantially, effectually, and
tleman perfectly or not; but I am sure I did not understand
permanently, to a regulation of the entire system of Asiatic
him. The constitution at least of this extraordinary system
management; the other partially, imperfectly, and super-
struck me as peculiarly absurd. He foresaw an appeal might
ficially. Were I to give a schoolboy an exercise how he
be sometimes unavoidable; and where is it lodged, but in
might most effectually involve the affairs of the East India
One of themselves; in a party concerned; in one who can-
company, is it possible for the invention of man to have bit
not, in the eye of the law of this country, act fairly, because
on an expedient so likely to answer that purpose? What task
acting under all the pressure of every person interested in
could he better performed than such a task as the right ho-
the issue of the plea. Legislatures have never appeared so
nourable gentleman has now assumed, and in this mature and
ridiculous as in forming laws which make no allowance for
polished state submitted to the consideration of the House?
the imperfections of human nature; for that which affects
Every degree of confusion and distraction which can be sup-
the decisions of a man's mind in one case will certainly affect
posed, is not merely unprovided against, but actually pro-
them in another; and wherever the public good is connected
vided for in the bill now proposed. What were the regula-
with his conduct, his agency ought to be as free from temp-
tions or establishments required by the wishes of this House
tation, and consequently as little liable to abuse, as possible.
and of the country ? Were they not, humanity to the natives
How, then, are decisions on the affairs of the East India
of that extensive territory, which has been wrested from its
company to take place where those affairs appear in any ease
original owners; safety to the whole proprietary of the greatest
involved? 'What impartiality can be expected from persons
trading company in the world ; the justice, equity, and li-
who, if they act at all, are subjected to act on a very in-
berality of the English law to all who participate of the Eng-
terested plan?
lish government; a restraint put on iniquitous contracts and
A very great parade is made about the consent of the com-
gross peculation of every sort; a system of responsibility
pany. I will acknowledge that the bill I had the honour to
and obedience, that master and servant, in this strange and
carry through this House, violated the company's charter
absurd system, might continue no longer synonimous or
to a certain degree. The Stuarts thought themselves long
convertible terms? These things are necessary to the welfare
possessed of an hereditary claim to the crown and sovereignty
of the company and of this country: but what one of them
of these realms. They lived, they acted, and they died in
is secured by this bill ? Does it not insult the reflection of
this conviction. It was found, however, by the investigation
every wise man who has at all considered the subject?
of mankind, that all this was mere usurpation, and originated
Does it not make a mock of that necessity which this House
in violence, or swim less honourable principle. The glo-
has pronounced to be urgent and unavoidable? Does it not
rious Revolution undeceived the world on the subject, and by
disappoint the expectations of the public, who have long been
substantiating the real meaning of the royal tenure, held up
clamorous for a reform in a particular with which they deem
this important lesson to the world, that those charters which
their own honour and reputation singularly connected ?
any one part of the community enjoys by consent of the
The right honourable gentleman sets out with his board
whole, can only be valid so Long as it consists with the
of superintendants, and endeavours to state a contrast be-
good of the whole, and no longer: When, therefore, we
tween those of his appointing, and those who received an
consider how much the public were sufferers, what obloquy
appointment from this House; but I beg leave to tell him
the country derived, how generally and sincerely the name
that they are totally different. Need I point out that dif-
of an Englishman was execrated by the consequences which
ference to this House ? The influence so new, so unprece-
resulted from the abuse of these charters, to have connived
dented, so perfectly unknown to the constitution, on which
at them would have been to have made this government,
he triumphed, and still triumphs so much in having detected,
this House, this country, the guarantees of every outrage
is no other than has been authorised by several acts of par-
and species of venality and extortion, which fasten an eternal
Y 4
328
MR. PITT'S EAST INDIA DILL.
[Jan. 4,
I784.]
MR. PITT'S EAST INDIA BILL.
329
stigma on those who acted so dishonourable a part. The
not be told that this illustrious nobleman was in the least
grand object, therefore, of those who proposed that bill, as
degree to be influenced by any minister whatever.
an adequate remedy for the infinite and palpable mischiefs,
Will the right honourable gentleman, will the public, or
was to establish some practicable and substantial redress for
will any description of men, however interested, deem their
a grievance peculiarly felt by the natives of India ; but at the
interest more secure, their affairs less liable to mismanage-
same time not a little affecting every one who wishes well to the
Inert, or their patronage less obnoxious to jobbing and ca-
present situation of this country.
price by the learned gentleman who may be secretary for that
The right honourable gentleman piques himself much in
department, than by those gentlemen whom I had the honour
not having violated the charters, in having procured a sur-
to nominate to the board of direction in the bill which pre-
render of what it was alleged others had violated, in having
ceded this? Who are the most likely to be guided by the
obtained the consent of the company. But let gentlemen
partialities, or little mercenary motives of private interest or
be on their guard against this specious assertion. Will ever
private connection ; one man, however able, honourable, or
this House, will ever the public at large consider the con-
respectable, or a body of men, all equally eminent for their
currence of two hundred and fifty, as the deed of a com-
amiable and excellent qualities?
pany which at least consists of fourteen hundred? How this_
The patronage of such a territory and so much revenue
was gained is not easily reconcileable with fair and equitable
must be considerable, and attended with infinite influence
conduct. But be that as it will, there certainly is no great
wherever it is placed. - how was this disposed of by the bill
foundation for triumph on the occasion. At least, if the
which this House adopted, but which the other rejected ?
charters were violated in the one case, they were equally
Why, the power of appointing all orders of men in the
so in the other; and with this specific difference, that by the
system of operation or new establishment thus proposed lay
first the property in all respects is not only secured to the
in. the seven chief directors, to whom all the trust of the
company, but receives such a security, as is evidently an
company was committed, and in whom every post, civil, com-
advantage; whereas in the bill now proposed, the violation
mercial, or military originated. These commissioners or
strips them of what is theirs, not less materially, without
directors were to reside at home; for what reason ? That they
affording them any recompence whatever.
might not only be under the control, but under the inspection
Much has been said concerning the control which is esta-
of this House. No very pernicious abuse could then prosper
blished in this board; and the responsibility of the ministers
or be indulged for any length of time. Complaints might
for the time being, is the only security which the public has
be investigated almost as soon as uttered, and redressed before
for the exercise of all their power. But arc these two powers
they could become very grievous.
to operate? The decisions of this very strange board are
But how does this matter stand by the new bill? The go-
therefore, like all other acts of administration, accountable to
vernment of India, after undergoing, to be sure, a most tho-
parliament. How ? Why; should they presume to go such
rough reformation, is still to remain as distant from Britain
r, • • -
lengths, as may in any degree thwart the inclination of the
as ever. The governor-general is to have the same powers
crown, the minister, or any secret adviser, their existence
of interior regulation as he had before. Does not the very
is from that moment determined, and they are without far,
Aspect of the system, as thus exhibited, bear a most promising
titer ceremony or deliberation dismissed. Is it natural for
encouragement to all the various modes of intrigue, peculation,
men in such a situation as this to exert their talents inde-
and outrage, which have been heretofore in use in that most
pendently, to propose any radical establishment or effectual
miserable corner cf the globe .? Will succession and regular
redress? No; they know to whom they owe their situation,
gradation be easily established in all the various lines of con-
and in proportion as they value themselves upon it, must
duct, in which it has been so long the habit of the place to
accommodate their principles and operations to that will on
act without regard to order or merit? Ia is likely that these
which they depend, Was any thing like this imputable to
abuses will be avoided at a distance which renders discipline
the measure which preceded the present one ? No attempt,
unpraeticable ? Flow, on such a Quixote-system as this, is a
I trust, will ever be made 'in this to lessen the regard I have
governor- general to be recalled ? It is true, a principle for
for the noble Earl Fitzwilliam. I mean no affront to any
this purpose is provided, but in such a manner, as, in my
0
gentleman, or Co state any comparison; but surely I sha ll
•
opinion, is an effectual bar to its operation. - For the plan
proposed, and that of the present adminif:tration, is in nothing
33©
MR. PITT'S.EAST..INDIA BILL.
[Jan.
17•]
MR. PITT'S EAST INDIA BILL.
331
more compatible than' . in the mode of their acting. Some,
measures of this description this country will soon be in such
thing like secret influence seems to pervade both the one ana
2. situation as must render all measures ineffectual, unnecessary;
the other. The moment a governor-general is sent out, it
or abortive.
may be expedient. and advisable to supersede him, even be..
The bill adopted by this House went somewhat farther;
fore he is fairly settled in his government. But though this
it proposed a radical change of system in the constitution
were not the case, how is he certain of being admitted to act,
of the company. It did not place the government of India
when he arrives, in the high capacity to which he is appointed?
out of the reach of parliament, by placing it out of the
Do not all the officers of state, whether political or military,
u a
country.
eet
It did not render the controlling power Mel-
f
depend on the governor-general ? Will they not regard him.
by placing the . patronage in the servants, but in
therefore, as one, in whose official existence they are peculiarly
the directors of the company. The consequence was, that
interested ? Will they not, should he chuse to be refractory,
a plan of efficiency was established, and provision made for
strengthen his principles of disobedience ? Will not all the
all the exigencies to be expected from a scheme of things
sentiments of gratitude and inclination be on the side of giving
so multifarious and involved. Every one in a subordinate
a negative to the orders from home, as has always been the
situation in that unfortunate country could, by that establish-
case ? The governor-general for the time being would be
ment, look beyond the menaces of a governor-general, and
more thanman, let him be Mr. Hastings, or whoever else it may
promise themselves redress in spite even of his monstrous in-
he, to withstand such potent temptation. But, surrounded and
fluence and powers. The appointments and advancement in
fortified by a great variety of individuals in every department
all the various departments in the government and commercial
of life, who owe their all to him, established in all pro-
establishments of India, being in others than those on the
bability on a system of his own creation, and possessed of in-
spot, or the immediate executors of the powers with which the
finite projects which he might think advantageous, it is not
original direction were entrusted, would undoubtedly draw
the orders of a few men, empowered ill but a limited measure,
along with it the independence of those whose situation arose,
that will affect him. Such a Man, an authority adequate to
not from any artful management there, but from what could
the object could only remove. This is no idle speculation.
he advanced in their favour here. This capital regulation I
The history of the company renders it explicit. The expe-
consider as effecting a perfect violation in the whole system,
riment of the bill in question has been made, and left such
which has been the occasion and cause of so much mischief.
effects on the minds of the people ill this country, as must un-
Every India bill short of this must therefore be ineffective,
doubtedly convince them of its inutility and absurdity. Be-
andlconsequently inadequate to the defects it is intended to
sides, who has not heard of the complaints Nyinch have been
made of irregular preferment, especially in the military line,
Where, then, is the abuse of patronage so much deprecated
but also in the political ? We know all advancements arise
by members on the other side of the House, as unavoidable
from what are called cadets and writers. These ever have
from the bill I brought in ? There is no abuse of that kind
been sent out from this country in vast abundance; and on
whatever, which is not guarded against as much as human
the system now agitated that superfluity of persons which can
sagacity can, as much as the wisdom and foresight of this
be of no use at home, may still be transported abroad. The
House could. The whole of this prodigious and invidious
trade is likely enough to be continued, but with no sort of
trust is lodged with gentlemen of unblemished honour, and
emolument to the public, though individuals will undoubtedly,
i ndependent fortunes, to whom few temptations can be power-
as usual, continue to amass fortunes without any dread of
ful. The consequence is, that the patronage of the company
punishment or trial, whatever their delinquency may have
has at least all the chance of this circumstance : and is not
been. This, as well as every other consideration to which the
this a more rational ground of confidence to the public at
subject led, was a demonstration, that the system which had
large, than any individual whatever? Let us suppose, but
produced so much mischief in the affairs of the company was
for a moment, such a mode of government was realized, it
not changed for another, was not even changed for a better,
would be placing India on nearly the same footing with that
was in fact only patched, and patched in such an aukward
of Ireland. Who does not know how very disagreeable and
and clumsy manner as, in my mind, makes the new, in some
impracticable the duty of a viceroy of Ireland is, especially
degree, worse than the old. For we are now arrived at that
under such vicissitudes of administration as have lately cha-
time which renders it necessary to be decisive; and without
racterized this country? Within but a very few years this
33 2
MR. PITT'S EAST INDIA BILL.
[Jan. 14,
1784.]
MR. PITT'S EAST INDIA BILL.
333
fact has been strangely verified by all the various noblemen
,knd who can be at a loss to see the meaning of this admi-
who had the honour of sustaining that elevated station,
rable device ?
Which of them have not found it impossible to act under
The last parliament, to their immortal honour, voted the
ministers on whom they had not 'the completest confidence?
influence of the crown inconsistent with public liberty. The
Will not this be the case. with whoever undertakes the pray
•ips,ht honourable gentleman, in consequence of that vote,
tical part of the executive administration of Indian affairs?
finds it probably unequal to the great objects of his adminis-
Who knows but the same ship which carries out his co
tration. He is therefore willing to take the present opportu-
mmis-
sion, may also carry out his recall, or at least before be
nity of making his court where he knows such a doctrine as
reaches his destination, an edict may either be announced of
this never will be acceptable; and the plain language of the
his incompetency, or a report for the purpose of defeating'
whole flatter now is, that the patronage of India must be
the very object of his appointment ? In that case, what ea
appended to the executive power of this country, which other-
he do but refuse acting under people whose principles and
wise will not be able to carry on schemes hostile to the con-
politics are so palpably different ? How, then, is this strange
stitution in opposition to the House of Commons.
5
unsettled habit to affect the policy and the commerce of India ?
Having thus far tried the relative excellencies of these' two,
Is not that very thing immediately reduced to a chaos? And
bills, it may not be amiss to attend to the distinction which
how, by such a policy as this, are the many gross improprie-
this one affects to set between the commercial and the political
ties and absurdities which have been the subject of complaint
interests. But has it separated these two inseparable objects?
for years to be amended ? The evils are then without remedy,
Does not the institution he states promise only to perpetuate
and must, for all the present provisions, remain so.
the very seeds of animosity and contention, which such an
Such, Sir, are some of the outlines of the system proposed
innovation in the interior of the company's affairs would no
to this House, in plain and open contradiction to the mea-
doubt engender? And to be sure the mode of settling this
sure which they have already preferred. What, then, is to
matter is not the least curious particular of the whole, and
be the decision ? Can any man be at a loss to divine ? Cer-
seems calculated only to render ridiculous what is incapable
tainly not. The House has already stamped the measure it
of any other colouring.
prefers with its approbation, and cannot adopt another.
I forbear going into the substance of the bill more at large,
They are' satisfied with their own determination, and will not,
as undoubtedly that will be more in point when the principle
on slight or superficial grounds, prefer another. The com-
of the measure comes to be disputed. A great variety of par-
parison in the progress of this bill with theirs is unavoidable,
ticulars incidentally mentioned by the right honourable gen-
and they must in the end adhere to a resolution which arose
tleman, however, are entitled to notice. I am aware how
from the closest and most deliberate discussion.
much energy his eloquence derives from the use of particular
The bill of this House was strongly reprobated, because it
words, of which he certainly has a very choice selection.
established an influence unknown to the constitution. This
Half measures has therefore been marked as the watchword
I have often combated. It is now time, since all argument
of the party, and undoubtedly it has its use, though not quite
is without effect, to try the force of assertion. It is what I
so sounding and agreeable to the ear as confiscation, and
utterly deny; and I desire any one to point out in what single
chartered rights of men, which admirably serve the purpose
particular any part of it will bear this construction. This
of filling a period and pleasing the ear. But the first has the
has often been asked, but none of the gentlemen on the other
advantage of the second in this, that it is true, and the other
side of the House have yet deigned to give me an implicit
is not. The history however of half measures is briefly this :
answer. It never, at least, struck me in such a ludicrous
last year the right honourable gentleman was rather shy, and
light; otherwise I certainly should not so strongly and re-
refused to accept his present situation, from a very wary ap-
peatedly have avowed the contrary. It is, then, brought to a
prehension that the House, which had dismissed him from
test. Another bill, on very different principles, and possessed
the service of the public, would not support him. All the
of very different functions, is brought forward; and how does
summer, it is more than probable, the game which had been
it dispose of the influence which has been magnified and en-
lately played at St. James's was going on. Private advice and
larged to such an extent, in order to make it the bugbear for
whispering in abundance prevailed at court, in order, if pos-
a certain purpose? Does it not lodge the whole in the crown?.
sible, to reduce the consequence of parliament, and get the bet-
334
AIL PITT'S EAST INDIA BILL.
[Jan. /G
.1784.3
MR. PITT'S EAST INDIA BILL.
335
ter of that confidence which was the support of ministry, and
of persuasion and conviction that it was a better measure
might still operate to a. farther retrenchment of the royal pre.
than the former ; and this could not be known unless both
rogative. The young candidate for office on this account
were compared, which could not be done unless time were al-
still wished for a more favourable opportunity. He hail
lowed for that purpose. He would, therefore, suggest to the
formed his plot perhaps on this very bill. He therefore at
right honourable gentleman, whether it would not be more
the opening of the session, apprehensive that we might not
proper to go into the second reading on that day se'nnight
be forward enough for his particular views, boldly took upon
than on Wednesday.
himself the office of goading us on ; and then it was that he
exclaimed against every species of " palliatives and half mea-
After a short conversation, Mr. Fox's proposition was agreed to.
sures." But I appeal to the House, if the measure now pro-
duced could be entitled to any other appellation, but for the
right honourable author of it. Any other person who should
January 23.
have produced such a plan, must, at least, have expected to
The bill was read a second time. On the motion, that it be
hear it branded as a mere palliative or half measure. In short,
committed,
after viewing the propositions of the right honourable gen-
tleman in every point of view, they strike me at least, as I
Mr. Fox rose with an intention to enter into the intrinsic
trust they will strike the House, as partial, incomplete, and
merits of a bill, on the fate of which depended so many and
furnishing the company and the public with only an allevia-
such various circumstances of magnitude and importance.
tion instead of a remedy. The system of the minister at pre-
He wished to consider them dispassionately, and with the
sent is founded on secret influence, and that system must in-
deference and candour which they deserved. He hoped no
evitably terminate in public ruin.
person would suspect him of prejudice on a point of so much
interest, and which so materially affected the political con-
cerns of the nation, and the prosperity and happiness of so
January 16.
vast a portion of the human race. This was, no object of
trivial concern; no question of light discussion; no subject in
Mr. Pitt presented his India bill which was read the first time, and
ordered to be printed. He then moved that it be read a second
the investigation of which the spirit of party should mingle.
time on Wednesday next; upon which,
The evils existing in the administration and government of
India might be digested under distinct heads. From the re-
Mr. Fox said that as the right honourable gentleman had,
ports of the secret and select committees it appeared, that,
in his opening of the business, wished that gentlemen would
the company's servants abroad, by a secret influence, cor-
compare this bill with that which had been thrown out by the
rupted and abused to their purposes the proprietors and di-
Lords, he did imagine that in fixing a clay for the second
rectors at home. It was no less evident that there was no
reading, he would have fixed on one sufficiently distant to af-
energy, or at least no sufficient vigour in the administration
ford gentlemen time enough to make a comparison. When
of the company's affairs in this country. And it was equally
he brought in the bill which had been thrown out by the
obvious, that there were no remedies for- those evils of various
Lords, he was acc