SPEECHES OF THE RIGHT HONOURABLE CHARLES JAMES FOX. VOL. •VL n ...
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OF
THE RIGHT HONOURABLE
CHARLES JAMES FOX.
VOL. •VL
n
-r -
ti
THE
rh
SPEECHES
OF
THE RIGHT HONOURABLE
CHARLES JAMES FOX,
IN THE
cc
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
IN SIX VOLUMES.
VOL. VI.
LONDON:
FOIL LONGMAN, HURST, BEES, ORMI:, AND BROWN,
PATERNOSTER-BOW ;
.AND 3. RIDGWAY, PICCADILLY.
Strahxn and Preston,
181 4.
Printers-Street, London.
CONTENTS
Or
THE SIXTH VOLUME.
1795'
,......e..,
Page
Nov. lo. Treason and Sedition Bills
I
16. The Same
9
17. The Same
16
23. The Same
z8
24. The Same
33
25. The Same
35
27. The Same
47
3o. The Same
47
Dec.
3. The Same
61
ro. The Same
74
Nov. z3. Mr. Reeves's Libel on the British Constitution
8o
z6. The Same
85
Dec. 4. The Same
87
9 . King's Message respecting a Negotiation with
the present Government of France
89
4. Mr. Whitbread's Bill to regulate the Wages of
Labourers in Husbandry
103
1796.
Feb. tz. The Same
los
15. Mr. Grey's Motion for Peace with France
106
18. Abolition of the Slave Trade
116
March 15. The Same
123
Feb- 26. Mr. William Smith's Motion respecting the Loan 132
March 4. Mr. Curwen's Bill for the Repeal of the Game
Laws
140
April 29. The Same
143
March 22. Duties on Legacies of Personal Estates
145
April 5. The Same
148
8. General Smith's Motion respecting the Expen-
diture of Public Money in Barracks
149
II. Mr. Francis's Motion respecting the better Re-
gulation of Slaves in the West Indies ...... ..., 156
Vi
CONTENTS.
CONTENTS:
Vii
1796.
Page
i803•
Page
May
5. Duty on Succession to Real Estates
163
Mr. Fox's Motion respecting the Mediation of
The Same
164
May 27•
Russia
530
6. Mr. Grey's Charges against Ministers relative to
the Expenditure of Public Money
165
'804.
Volunteer Consolidation Bill
Jo. Mr. Fox's Motion on the Conduct of the War
Feb. 29.
538
Naval Administration of' Earl St. Vincent
546
with France
178
March 15.
Mr. Fox's Motion on the Defence of the Country
551
Oct.
6. Address on the King's Speech at the Opening
April 23.
569
of the Session
209
June IS.
Additional Force Bill
18. Invasion - Augmentation of the Militia
List of the New Administration
569
219
31. The Same
228
18o5•
Dec.
7. Budget for 1797 - Terms of the Loan - Ad-
Feb.
i8.
Property Tax
575
vances to the Emperor without the Consent
April
8.
Proceedings respecting Lord Melville
577
of Parliament
237
May 14.
Mr. Fox's Motion for referring the Petition of
8. The Same
the Roman Catholics of Ireland to a Com-
246
14. Mr. Fox's Motion of Censure on Ministers for
mittee
586
advancing Money to the Emperor without
June 20.
Mr. Grey's Motion on the State of Public Af-
the Consent of Parliament
252
fairs
615
30. Mr. Fox's Amendment to the Address on the
2I.
Continental Alliances
621
King's Message respecting the Rupture of
18°6.
the Negociation for Peace with France ......
263
Jan.
27.
Funeral Honours to the Memory of Mr. Pitt
625
1797.
March 3.
List of the New Administration
63
Feb. 27. Stoppage of Cash Payments at the Bank
286
Lord Ellenborough's Appointment to a Seat in
28. The Same ............
289
the Cabinet
631
March z3. Mr. Harrison's Motion for the Reduction of
April 23.
King's Message on the War with Prussia
641
Useless Places, Sinecure Offices, &c.
300
May I.
Slave Importation Bill
648
23. Mr. Fox's Motion on the State of Ireland
305
15.
Property Tax
649
April to. Mr. Pollen's Motion for Peace with France
319
30.
Limited Service in the Army
651
May 23. Mr. Fox's Motion for the Repeal of the Trea-
June to.
Abolition of the Slave Trade
658
son and Sedition Bills
329
26. Mr. Grey's Motion for a Reform in Parliament
339
Dec. 14. Assessed Taxes Bill
370-
i800.
Feb.
3. King's Message respecting Overtures of Peace
from the Consular Government of France
383
1801.
March 25. Mr. Grey's Motion on the State of the Nation
422
List of the New Administration
422
Nov.
3. Address on the Preliminaries of Peace with the
French Republic
455
I8oz.
March 16. Character of the Duke of Bedford
466
29. Arrears of the Civil List
473
1803.
May 24. Mr. Grey's Amendment to the Address on the
King's Message relative to the War with
France
484
SPEECHES
OF THE
RIGHT HONOURABLE
CHARLES JAMES FOX,
<ST' cfS'c'
TREASON AND SEDITION BILLS.
November
1795.
TNconsequence of the indignities offered to his majesty in his
way to and from the House of Peers on the first day of the
session, a proclamation was issued on the 31st of October, offering
a thousand pounds for the discovery of any person guilty of those
outrages. On the 4th of November it was followed by another,
wherein it was said, that previously to the opening of parliament,
multitudes had been called together by hand-bills and advertise-
ments, who met in the vicinity of the metropolis, where inflamma-
tory speeches were made, and -divers means used to sow discontent
and excite seditious proceedings. These meetings and discourses
were followed three days after by the most daring insults to the
king, by which his person had been imminently endangered. Ru-
mours had also been spread, that assemblies were to be held by
disaffected people for illegal purposes. In consequence of those
proceedings, it was enjoined by the proclamation to all magis-
trates, and well affected subjects, to exert themselves in prevent-
ing and suppressing all unlawful meetings, and the dissemination
of seditious writings. So great had been the alarm and indigna-
tion, created by the treatment of the king, that as soon as he had
gone through the reading of his speech, and had left the House,
ictoNi visalsiltiamttitoiendi‘avtaes held by to be cleared of all strangers, and a
eld by the lords, in what manner to proceed
suoplvoend
an occasion. An address to the king was re-
upon,
to alul a conference with the House of Commons to
request their concurrence therein. The majority agreed in this
measure
suof
re ; but the Marquis of Lansdowne accused the ministers of
intending
seize this opportunity to work upon the passions and
fears
the people, and to lead their representatives into conees-
VOL.
TREASON AND SEDITION BILLS.
[Nov. ic
TREASON AND SEDITION BILLS.
3
795]
sions derogatory to the public liberty, and debasing to their cha-
; and if the meeting did not disperse at his command, the
felony
racter, in order to confirm their own power at the expense of the
penalties provide d in the riot-act should be. inflicted on the re-
constitution. A conference with the Commons was held accord-
There was, Mr. Pitt added, another species of meeting,
f ractory.
ingly in the course of the day, and witnesses were examined in
oeiisisting of persons who attended public lectures on political
ICn
relation to the outrages committed. Their evidence was commu-
the lecturers were mca notoriously disaffected to go-
subjects ;
nicated to the Commons, and both houses unanimously concurred
vernment, and the doctrines they delivered were calculated to
in the addresses proposed.
instil the rankest principles of resistance and rebellion to the
On the 6th of November, Lord Grenville introduced a bill into
established powers. In order to obviate this effectually, the act
the House of Lords, for better securing the king's person and
against disorderly houses should be applied to meetings of this
government. The motive he alleged was, the necessity of pre-
kind, whenever they exceeded, by a number to be stated in the
venting abuses similar to those that had taken place on the opening
act, the real family of the House. Mr. Pitt concluded with
of the session. He explicitly attributed them to the licentious
moving, " That leave be given to bring in a bill for the more ef-
language and maxims held forth in the meetings, which had been
fectually preventing seditious meetings and assemblies." As soon
so long suffered, without due notice on the part of the legislature,
as the Speaker had read the motion,
but which were now arrived to such a degree of insolence, that
they required immediate restriction. He would recur on this
Mr. Fox said. he trusted it was unnecessary for him to.pre7
occasion, he said, to precedents framed. in approved times, the
face what lie had to say, by a declaration which he hoped, for
reign of Elizabeth, and the commencement of the reign of
every member of that House, was equally unnecessary; that
Charles II. In order more effectually to obviate so great an evil,
he felt as much horror at the attempt which was made against
he would move the passing of a bill, which he produced, and
which was entitled, " An act for the safety and preservation of
his majesty as any man in the kingdom; quite as much as arty
his majesty's person and government against treasonable and
man who might move, who might second, or who might sup-
seditious practices. and attempts."
port the bill, which it seemed was to be offered to the House.
On the 9 th of November, Mr. Pitt moved in the House of
Having agreed so far with the minister that night, there lie
Commons, that the royal proclamations in consequence of the
must take his leave of him. lie did not think he should well
late riot, should be taken into consideration. He grounded his
express his feelings, if he declared that his indignation at
motion on the necessity of preventing such insults being offered to
what had happened even on that day, was more than equal to
the sovereign, as he had experienced on the opening of the session.
what he felt from what he had heard this night. The right
He presumed every loyal subject would unite with him on this oc-
honourable gentleman had adverted to a bill, at that time in
casion, and that methods would be taken to obviate those causes
from whence the outrages proceeded, which were the factious
the other House; which was stated to have for its object the
meetings of disaffected people, wherein seditious discourses were
better security of his majesty's person, and on which, it was
constantly held, and principles maintained utterly subversive of
probable the House would have some communication with
good order and obedience to government. The pretence of these
their lordships. He believed it would be difficult for the
meetings was to petition the legislature for rights withheld from
right honourable gentleman to shew the necessity for that bill,
the people; but the real motive was, to promulgate opinions,
if he meant to ground that necessity upon the assumption that
inimical to government, and calculated to bring it into contempt.
what happened on the first day of the session was Sin conse-
If' the executive power were not invested with sufficient authority
quence of what passed at meetings to-which he had alluded.
to controul these meetings, they would finally endanger the exist-
He disapproved highly of all these experiments, which were
ence of the state. The rights of the people doubtless ought to
be respected, but it was equally indispensable to obviate their
professed to be intended as securities for the enjoyment of all
abuse. The question before the House was, Mr. Pitt said,
the blessing's of our constitution. He knew the constitution
Whether the pressure of the moment did not require an instant
had existed for ages sufficiently guarded by the law as it now
remedy? A precise and acknowledged power was wanting in.
stood, and therefore, if the right honourable gentleman had
the magistrate to disperse such meetings as threatened disorders.
not opened his plan, which, he declared, struck him with
This power indeed ought not to extend to meetings held for lawful
horror; if he had not said a single word upon that detestable
purposes, but only to authorize him to watch over the proceedings
plan, he should have given his negative to the proposition in
of any large assembly, whatever might be the object of those
because the proposition itself laid it down as an
who assembled. To this intent, notice should be given to the
assumed fact, that the law at present is insufficient to prevent
magistrate previously to the intended meeting; he should be em-
breaches of
powered to be present, and if it appeared of a seditious tendency,
o t le public peace. It was said, that a seditious
to seize the guilty on the spot; to obstruct. him should. be made
meeting had been held somewhere in the neighbourhood of
n 2,
4
TREASON AND SEDITION DILLS.
[Nov. IO
TREASON AND SEDITION BILLS.
r795.]
the metropolis a few days previous to the meeting of parlia-
subject. He had said, that there might be a
ment; that at such meeting very alarming -proceedings had
ot preserve
of petitioning, and -to prevent
taken place, striking at the very existence of parliament itself.
cslalItlipltoynile
right. the Difficulty
ight
feculty
he confessed
buses of that
d
That such proceedings took place he did not know; but, this
abuses
but tttlIel
'not
d
icn the
embarrass licac
himy for, he said
he knew, if speeches were made that had such a tendency,
there
o
igelirt :
be settled in
Thus the right honour-
they might
the speakers were amenable to the law. If hand-bills were
able gentleman talked
lked with ease
a
e on the rights of the subject, as.
distributed that 'had such a tendency, the distributors were
if he expected to bring the public to submit to the most rigid
amenable to the law. If any person had so conducted him-
despotism. In that detail, Mr. Fox said, he would never take
self as to be the means of causing the people so assembled to
a share, for he would never attend the detail of a measure
form a resolution, having such a tendency, he was amenable
which in its essence was so detestable. The right honourable
to the law, and, when proved guilty, was liable to adequate
gentleman had hinted at two points. With regard to the
punishment. But this bill was to proceed upon the flimsy
first, that of public meetings for the discussion of public sub-
pretext, that all the violence and outrage that had been
jects, he must not only confess them to be lawful, but must
offered to his majesty was the result of this meeting, of which
allow them also to be agreeable to the very essence of the
there was not the colour of proof. He knew, indeed, that
British constitution, and to which, under that constitution,
the right honourable gentleman had attempted to connect-
most of the liberties we enjoyed were particularly owing.
them; he knew, too, there had been, and would 1.)e endea-
The right honourable gentleman had said, that these meetings
vours to confound the two things.
were not to be prevented, they were only to be regulated.
It was, Mr. Fox said, ridiculous to talk of these things
" Attend," said Mr. Fox, " to the regulation. I thought I
being perfectly notorious; that these proceedings were clearly
knew the rights of man — aye, and the rights of Englishmen.
seditious; they were points upon which that House could not
[Here was a prodigious cry of Hear ! hear What, said he,
regularly proceed, for they were points on which there was
that is a slip you suppose. The rights of man is a sentence
no proof. Nothing was more clear than that the House of
without a meaning. Do you say that men have no natural
Commons ought never to proceed upon any measure that
rights ? If so, Englishmen's rights can have no existence ;
might trespass upon the rights of the public, without evi-
this House would have no existence. The rights of man, I
dence that was decisive, even in cases of extreme necessity;
say, are clear; man has natural rights; and he who denies it
but there was no evidence whatever to connect any of the
is ignorant of the basis of a free government; is ignorant of
proceedings of these meetings with the daring insult offered to
the best principle of our constitution."
his majesty. The right honourable gentleman had said, Should
The people, he had always 'thought, had a right to discuss
not the House endeavour to prevent the repetition of such an
the topics from which their grievances arose. In all instances,
insult ? Undoubtedly it should. But then it should be upon
they had a right to complain by petition, and to remonstrate
evidence; and here the right of persons to meet any where
to either House of Parliament, or, if they pleased, to the
to consult on public measures, was to be affected in conse-
king exclusively ; but now, it seems, they are not to do so,
quence of what happened to his majesty on the first clay of
unless notice be given to a magistrate, that he may become a
the session, although there was no evidence to prove that the
witness of their proceedings. There were to be witnesses of
outrage arose from any proceedings that were had at any
every word that every man spoke. This magistrate, this
public meeting previous to that day. Some persons, perhaps,.
jealous witness, was to form his opinion on the propriety of
might consider the proclamation itself as evidence. He could
the proceedings ; and if lie should think that any thing that
agree to no such rule: he well knew there were those who
was said had a tendency to sedition, lie had power to arrest
doubted the truth of the proclamations : who believed many
the man who uttered it. Not only so, he was to have the
of them to be the acts of ministers for certain purposes of
power of dissolving the meeting at his own will. " Sa y at
their own ; and he was sure it was not regular in that House
once," said Mr. Fox, " that a free constitution is no longer
to take things for granted, merely because they appeared in a
• ,•
suitable us say at once, in a manly manner, that upon an
proclamation.
ample review of the state of the world at this moment, a free
These were strong objections to proceeding upon this sub-
j
constitution
not fit for you; conduct yourselves at once as
ect without better evidence. All this, however, was trifling,
the senators isof D
k 1 . 1 ; lay down your freedom, and
in comparison with what tile right honourable gentlenian had
acknowlede, and enmar
b e ante accept of despotism. But do not mock the
13 3
6
TREASON AND SEDITION BILLS.
[Nov. To.,
TREASON AND SEDITION BILLS.
.7
1795.1
understandings and the feelings of mankind, by telling the
and are such as to call forth a general desire that they should
world that you are free — by telling me that, if out of the
what are the public to do? They must send,
n
I: e
e
o
redressed,
r r et dreteod,
house, for the purpose of expressing my sense of the public
it seems,
a_ magistrate, and under
they
his good leave the
administration of this country, of the calamities which this
be permitted
ermitted to proceed. [Here there was a cry
• war has occasioned, I state a grievance by petition, or make
from the treasury bench of No ! no " I do not mean,"
any declaration of my sentiments, which I always had a right
said Mr. Fox, " to overstate this power, God knows there is
to do; but which if I now do,. in a manner that may appear
no occasion for that, for there seems to be sufficient care
to a magistrate to be seditious, I am to be subjected to pe-
taken of magisterial authority in every step of this proceed
nalties which hitherto were unknown to the laws of England.
inc. Behold, then, the state of a free born Englishman
If in stating any of these things out of the House, a magi-
Before he can discuss any topic which involves his liberty,
strate should be of opinion that I am irregular, he is to have
he must send to a magistrate who is to attend the discussion.
the power to stop me: he may say — The cause which you
That magistrate cannot prevent such meeting: but he can
allege for your grievance is unfounded; you excite, by what
prevent the speaking, because he can allege, that what is
you say, jealousies and discontents that are unfounded ;' and
said tends to disturb the peace and tranquillity of this realm.
if I say what in his judgment or his wishes ought to be con-
' Sir, I hope this bill will never come into this House. I ant
cealed, he is to have a power-to stop me, and to treat me as
not friendly to any thing that will produce violence. Those
a rioter, if I do not obey him. I ask again, if this can be
who know me will not impute to me any such desire; but I
called a meeting of free people ? Did ever a free people meet
do hope, that this bill will produce an alarm; that while
so ? Did ever a free state exist so? Did any man ever
we have the power of assembling, the people will assemble;
hypothetically state the possibility of the existence of freedom
that while they have the power, they will not surrender it,
under such restrictions? Good God Almighty, Sir! is it
but come forward and state their abhorrence of the principle
possible that the feelings of the people of this country should
of this proceeding; and those who do not, L pronounce to be
be thus insulted ? Is it possible to make the people of this
traitors to. their country. Good God, Sir, what madness,
country believe that this plan is any thing but a total annihi-
what frenzy has overtaken the authors of this measure ! I will
lation of their liberty ?"
suppose for a moment that the only object which they have
The right honourable gentleman had next adverted to a
in view is the preventing a revolution in this country. But
bill which had been passed to prevent the assembling of per-
that they should have proceeded upon a plan which has no
sons for the discussion of questions on the Lord's day, from
regard for the liberty of the people, no regard for the glo-
which he was to bring in a bill to prevent the discussion of
rious efforts of our ancestors, no regard for their maxims,
questions on any day; and this, he said, was to be applicable
no esteem for the principles and the conduct which have Made
to all cases where money was to be taken. Why all questions
us what we are, or rather, if this bill be countenanced, what
were to be prohibited where money was to be taken, merely
we were, is to me astonishing ! For to proceed thus, in order
on an allegation that such questions might produce mischief;
to suppress or prevent popular tumults, appears to me to be
was, he confessed, beyond his skill to understand. But this
the most desperate infatuation. Good God, Sin! We have
was not all : it was to he applicable, it seemed, to places,
seen and
an
owdin have heard of revolutions in different states. Were
where no money was to be taken, because, in truth, persons
they
to the freedom of popular opinions? Were they
might be admitted b y means of tickets; and they must not
Owing to the facility of popular meetings? No, Sir, they were
amount to a number beyond a certain one which the minister
Owing to the reverse of these; and therefore I say, if we wish
should be pleased to insert in his bill, unless duly licensed by
to avoid the danger of such revolutions, we should put our-
a magistrate. He would again ask — Was this, or was it
selves in a state as different from them as possible. What
not, to prevent all political discussion whatever? Let them
are we now doing? Putting ourselves in a condition nearly
spew him when this had obtained since the Revolution, or
resembling the periods when these revolutions happened.
at any time when this country could be called free. The
In the reign of Charles I., the most interesting period to
people are to be prevented from discussing public topics
which we can look in the history of this country, was free-
publicly : they are to be prevented from discussing them
dora of speech indulged to any latitude; or were libels suf-
privately. If then, without this private intercourse or pub-
fered to pass without notice? On the contrary, were not both,
lic debate, the grievances of this ,country are to 'be kit,
at that tune, punished with an extraordinary degree of ri7
B 4
8
TREASON AND SEDITION BILLS.
[NOV. Ie.
TREASON AND SEDITION BILLS.
9
795']
gour? Is it the intention of ministers, by these arbitrary
discussion ; not merely, with the permission of a magistrate,
measures, to bring the country into the same disastrous situ-
or under the control of an executive force, but on all occasions
ation in which it was plunged during that unhappy reign?
to state, in bold and plain words, the grievances which they
It might have been hoped, that the impressive lessons of
feel, and the redress which they desire. I have only now to
modern times, and of events still fresh in their consequences,
express my firm determination to oppose the bill in every
had not yet been forgotten. Look to France before the
stage of its progress. And, in the first instance, I shall con-
period of her revolution. Was it the facility of public meet-
ceive it necessary to move. for a call of the House, as it is
ings, or the freedom of discussion granted to the subject, that
impossible for me to suffer a question, which involves so
tended to produce that great change ? On the contrary, was
material an alteration of the constitution, to pass in this
it not the absolute prerogative of the king? Was it not the
House, without solemnly calling on every member to give a
arbitrary power lodged in ministers? Was it not the oppres-
vote on the discussion.
sive privilege of issuing Lettres de- Cachet against all who
dared to utter their sentiments, and complain of existing
The motion for leave to bring in the bill was also opposed by
grievances, that excited the indignation of the people and
Mr. Stanley, Mr. Maurice Robinson, Mr. Curwen, Mr. Sheridan,
and Mr. Grey. The House divided on the motion for leave to
accelerated the downfall of the monarchy? If, therefore, one
view on which the present measure is held out to your accep-
bring in the bill :
tance, be in order to prevent the troubles arising from the
Tellers.
Tellers.
{Lord Belgrave
Mr. Grey
frequency of popular assemblies, on that very ground ought
YEAS
Mr. R. Stewart j 2I4--NoEs 1Mr. Sheridan} 42 ' •
the friends of peace and of order to resist the adoption of
Leave was accordingly given to bring in the bill, and, on the
the measure. In countries where men may openly state their
motion of Mr. Fox, a call of the House on that day fortnight was
grievances and boldly claim redress, the effect of their com-
agreed to.
plaints and remonstrances may, indeed, for a time be ob-
structed by the operation of ministerial corruption and in-
trigue; but perseverance must ultimately be effectual in pro-
November 16.
curing them relief. But if' you take away all legal means of
obtaining that object, if you silence remonstrance and stifle
The bill " for the safety and preservation of his majesty's person
complaint, you then leave no other alternative but force and
and government, against treasonable and seditious practices and
violence. These are means so dreadful in their effects, that
attempts," passed the House of Lords this day, and was brought
it may be matter of question whether any good they produce
down to the Commons. After it had been read a first time, Mr.
can possibly compensate for the evils with which they are
Sheridan, insisting that no proofs had been adduced to authorize
so harsh a measure, and that ministers had no right to bring
necessarily attended ; such means as scarcely even the best
forward such a bill without the clearest proofs of its necessity,
cause can justify. Let us examine a little closely the argu-
moved, " That a committee be appointed to inquire into the
ment on which so much stress is laid, namely, the danger that
existence and extent of the danger of seditious meetings, as re-
may arise from a popular discussion of grievances. If the
ferred to in his majesty's proclamation." The motion for an
pretext of grievances be groundless, and not warranted . by
inquiry was opposed by Mr. Powys, Mr. Windham, Mr. Pitt, and
any immediate pressure, the more it is discussed, the less
the attorney-general, as creating a delay that might be productive
effect it will have in exciting discontent. But if you pre-
of much danger. The tranquillity of the public, they said, re-
clude these political humours, if I may so call them, from
quired the promptest measures. The latter expressed great
having a vent, you then leave no alternative but unconsti-
solicitude in vindicating his conduct at the late trials : he insisted
on the propriety of the bill in question, which, he said, would, at
tutional submission, or actual violence. If ever there exists
the most, prove the adoption of a lesser evil, to prevent a greater.
a just cause of grievance, one or other must he adopted; a
Air. laws of the land were, in his opinion, inadequate to
tame acquiescence, incompatible with the spirit of freedom,
prevent the appearance of such publications as he had read, and
or an open resistance, subversive of the order of government.
of such meetings as had been held ; new laws were of consequence
I know that peace and quiet are the greatest of all blessings,
necessary.
but I know also, that rational liberty is the only security for
their enjoyment. I admire the British constitution, because
Air. Fox said, that as he did riot wish, in the present stage
it gives scope to the people to exercise the right of political
of the business, unnecessarily to detain the House, he would
II
IO TREASON AND SEDITION BILLS. [NOV. 16.
TREASON AND SEDITION BILLS.
II
1795']
principally advert to what had fallen from the honourable,
of long intimacy, he entertained sentiments of the highest re-
and learned gentleman who had last spoken, who had gone
gard and friendship ; of the other, from all, he had heard of
into a very wide field, and introduced different topics, partly
b iro, lie had been taught to think with the greatest respect.
of a personal nature, and partly of a more general description,
But he should not have felt for one that ardent friendship, nor
as applying to the question before the House. He was not
ook{
, he have deemed the other entitled to that sincere re-
shoul
one of those 'a ho thought that the attorney-general ought
sphect
if, in a question of life and death, where they were
not, in the recent instances, which had been referred to in
called upon to act as counsel, from any speculation of their
the course of debate, to have prosecuted for high treason.
own, with respect to the guilt or innocence of the prisoners,
The declaration of the two Houses on that subject was decisive.
or With respect to the nature of evidence, they had neglected
Whenever it was the opinion of the attorney-general that
to set up that defence which was infallibly- calculated to save
persons had been guilty of high treason, it was his bounden
the lives of their clients. Was it in consequence of the result
duty to prosecute.. But itndid not follow, because those
of the trials that the bills were brought in ? He was told that
persons had been acquitted of the crime of high treason, that
not from these trials only, but from their subsequent proceed-
if they had been tried upon a different charge, they would
ings the dangerous temper of these meetings had been proved,
have been found guilty of a misdemeanor. He had no
and that their mischievous tendency could not be corrected,
doubt, that under this alteration of the charge, the jury would
except by some new legislative regulation. He would appeal
have conscientiously exercised their judgment, and brought
to ministers what had been the effect of the former regulations
in an honest verdict according to the circumstances of the
they had adopted. Had they not suspended the habeas corpus
case. The honourable and learned gentleman said, that ac-
act, upon grounds which he must ever contend to be slight,
quittal did not disprove guilt. Fie was not one of those who
and such as by no means warranted so violent a measure?
would contend that acquittal was a decisive or unequivocal
Had they not afterwards renewed that suspension ? The sus-
proof of innocence. In common cases there were many cir-
pension, however, they had afterwards allowed to drop during
cumstances that might engender doubt as to the question of
the interval of the sitting of parliament. He had congratu-
guilt or innocence. First, when the existence of the offence
lated himself at the beginning of session, when he heard
was ascertained, the difficulty was to prove by whom it had
his majesty talk of the spirit of order and submission to the
been committed, to what particular quarter the guilt should
laws, which, with a very few exceptions, had discovered itself
attach. Secondly, even when there was a moral certainty,
among his faithful subjects. Coupling this declaration with
with respect to the authors of the offence, there was often ex-.
the conduct of ministers, in allowing the suspension of the
treme difficulty in bringing home the charge to the individual,
habeas corpus to drop, he had flattered himself that ministers
by legal proof: Neither of these circumstances, however, ex-
had now renounced the opinion, that the evil to be dreaded
isted in the case of the individuals tried for high treason.
from certain principles would be diminished by vigorous judi-
There could neither be doubt as to their persons, nor diffi-
cial proceedings, and the prosecution of the war with France.
culty in proving that they were the authors of the acts charged
He did not think for his own part that the evil was in any de-
against them. They were acquitted by a jury not less respect-
:,
gree diminished ; but he conceived that ministers had begun
able than the committee of that House who had drawn up the
to form more just opinions on the subject, that they had begun
report respecting their proceedings. He would say not less
to perceive the folly and inefficacy of their former measures,
respectable, from their situation in life; and in his opinion,
and to adopt in the course of their future' proceedings the
not less respectable; because they were removed from those
suggestions of a milder spirit and more enlightened policy.
objects of ambition which might be supposed to have had
Unhappily, however, for the country, it appeared from the
some influence with the members of that committee, and
present measure, that he had been mistaken in these expect-
which some of them since might have been deemed pretty
_atinns. Was it in consequence of the meeting at Copenhagen-
well to have attained. In the course of the business, he had been
house, or the meeting at St. George's Fields, that they had
early convinced of the want of evidence sufficient to convict
been induced to brimg forward the present bills? Both these
those men, and had broadly stated his sentiments on that
meetings, he remarked, had taken place previous to the com-
subject ; but the honourable and learned gentleman had said,
mencement of the present session, when the ministers put into
that Mr. Erskine and Mr. Gibbs, the prisoners' counsel,
the mouth of his majesty a declaration of the spirit of order
thought differently. For one of those gentlemen, from habits
and submission to the law, which had manifested itself in the
country. Would they then say, that any thing which had
1.7
I
TREASON AND SEDITION BILLS.
12
TREASON AND SEDITION BILLS.
[Nov. 16.
795
I
W]
occurred at those meetings, was the ground of their pre-
gence, which they might deem it essential for the interests or
sent measures? If they did say so, he defied even credulity
safety of the state to communicate, and these he should set
s
to believe them. He had stated, that notwithstanding the
down as useful or meritorious spies. There were others who
a
prosecutions which had been carried on in this country ; not-
went certain lengths in order to acquire information, and
withstanding the still more disgraceful judicial proceedings in
made certain sacrifices, in order the more completely to get
Scotland, which exhibited a mere mockery of justice; still he
into the secrets of others ; these he should reckon at least
insnu
so rt,
had hopes, from the conduct of ministers, in allowing the sus-
doubtful. But there wereaitha
-wl
inholit.odetrhteocsoeiii.five-
iit.celd themselves
pension of the habeas corpus to drop, that that law would
their
be left to its course, and even that liberty would revive. But,
creoo7 those w from they y wished to betray, not only affected
then, what had happened on the 2 9 th of October — that out-
a
dt siimilarity of sentiment, but even spurred and goaded them on,
rage on his majesty, which they all equally deplored. He was
and prompted them to adopt more violent language and more
„
tola that outrage was connected with the proceedings of cer-
reprehensible propositions, than they would otherwise have
tain societies. He was referred for proof to the coincidence
employed—of such characters there were no words in the
in point of time, and the notoriety of their transactions. Here
fio
Enng LI
which could sufficiently mark his contempt
detestation. This was the description of spy, which most
he remarked, that while ministers declined giving that proof
frequently appeared in the cases that solicited their notice—
to which the House was entitled, and which they ought to
the trials at the Old Bailey. In all instances, the spy had
have received before they consented to entertain a question of
been found the most furious in his sentiments, and the most
such deep importance to the constitution, they brought a sort
intemperate in his language. He had often been the exare-
of evidence which was worse than all ; evidence was brought
' b
rated and falsifying reporter of those proceedings, of which
from a proclamation of the executive government. An at-
he himself had been prime mover and contriver. [The at-
tempt was made so far to degrade the House, as to bring in a
torney-general here interrupted Mr. Fox, 'to tell him that an
bill upon the evidence of a proclamation of his majesty's mi-
information had been preferred against one of the witnesses
nisters. Part of the honourable and learned gentleman's
speech he confessed had strongly affected him. He talked of
the contempt into which parliament had fallen. If parliament
jfor perjury, but had not been proceeded upon by the grand
ury.] Mr. Fox resumed. It was no proof to him of the in-
nocence of the man, that a bill had not been found.against
were so careless of their duty, so lost to all sense of character
.
him. But he would here refer to the trial of Mr. Walker, of
as to take a-proclamation of the executive government as evi-
Manchester, the proceedings on which were of such a na-
dence of the facts, upon which they were to ground their pro-
ture, that they made his blood run cold, whenever he read or
ceedings, they would, indeed, deserve that contempt which
thought of them. Mr. Walker was not, indeed, put in peril
they were said to have incurred. The honourable and learned
of his life, for it required the oaths of two witnesses to have
gentleman had read a number of papers, in order to show the
brought him to condign punishment; and fortunately for hu-
atrocious spirit and dangerous views of the persons who com-
man nature, a second Dunn was not to be found. But he was
posed these meetings. It was a sort of evidence which he
put in hazard of his character, his liberty, and his fortune;
confessed lie received with much suspicion, in consequence of
and in the course of the trial it was found, that the person by
the distrust with which he was accustomed Ito receive every
Novalitohno
lfltileli, v .accused was notoriously perjured. Yet on the
Such communication from that quarter of the House. If such
ery
iy Irian., one of the name of Paul, had, for some
facts existed, as had been stated by the honourable and learned
toilienec,obneveinet kept
pt in prison. To be sure he was liberated upon
f
gentleman, why were they not brought before the House in
perjury of his accuser. But what repar-
such a way as might constitute a proper ground for their pro-
ation did ministers
6:o
grant to this man, thus exposed to suffer,
ceedings? Why ought not the House to have the spies of
from the falsehood'e
and corruption of' another ? It was, surely,
the right honourable gentleman at their bar, in order to ex-
the di
th
n
, ,
y of government to make amends' to the innocent indi-
amine them as to their report of the facts which might have
victual
ment, agfise,ounibltlis'e.tethe to the disgrace and hardships of confine-
come under their inspection ? The honourable and learned
were times MI:nc: r gence of ministers, or the depravity of
gentleman said that spies were instruments whom government
their '
had at all times found necessary to employ. Mr. Fox ad-
The honourable and learned gentleman said, that these
mitted that there were different sorts of spies. First, there
c I. ire could not contemplate without the most
were persons who might by chance be privy to sane intelli-
14
TREASON AND SEDITION BILLS.
[Nov. 16.
TREASON AND SEDITION BILLS.
15
1793'1
serious apprehensions with respect to the fate of all who were
The operation of the present bill would interrupt the meet-
dear to him. He confessed that he- did not think less se-
ing of clubs, occasional attendance on which formed the chief, if
riously of the times than the honourable and learned gentle-
1, 6t the sole, luxury of persons in certain stations. [A cry of
man. It bad been asked, whether it was filir to set down the
If it did not do so, he could only say, that as it was
whole of the friends and supporters of ministers as in a con-
t expressed, he did not understand it. The honour-
at present
li
spiracy against the liberties of the country ? To this lie
learned gentleman told us, that the whole of govern-
N
aq n
l leras
enoedn
would answer by another question, Did not the honour-
ment was attacked. He was not an advocate for attacks on
able and learned gentleman believe that there were in the Cor-
government, but he was an advocate for human nature, when
responding Society some men who were morally good, and
it was oppressed. It had been well said in a former war with
who were by no means actuated by those detestable views and
respect to the Americans, "You drive them to madness, and
malignant passions, which were, upon every occasion, indis-
will you quarrel with them about their ravings?" When he
criminately ascribed to the whole of the body? So in the same
looked to the many calamities which the war had brought upon
way lie might believe, that there were some supporters of mi-
the country ; when he saw, during them all, an acquiescent
nisters, who really meant well, though they were blind dupes
and confiding House of Commons, he thought he could ac-
of the folly, or unconscious instruments of the wicked policy
count for some part of that spirit of murmuring and discon-
of ministers. But though he by no means confounded every
tent which pervaded a great body of the people. He stated
supporter of ministers under the same censure, yet if lie saw a
this to have been the only war since the peace of Utrecht,
rooted design on the part of ministers to invade the liberties
which had in no one instance given rise to any inquiry in the
of the subject, followed up by successive efforts, all directed to
House of Commons. Eyeu during the famous wars of • Chat-
that object, he should think himself wanting in his duty, if
ham, and the. victorious campaigns of Malborough, inquiries
he did not take all peaceable means of stirring up opposition
were instituted respecting some of the operations. Had this
on the part of the country t- the progress of their measures.
been the only war so eminently brilliant, so uniformly success-
The honourable and learned gentleman had prefaced his
ful, so clear in its details, so economical in its arrangements,
speech with different views of the nature of the British con-
as to claim exemption from that accuracy of investigation,
stitution, in some of which he agreed with him, in others
which had been displayed at former periods in the military
he thought his own opinions more applicable. Ile agreed
history of this country ? With this negligence of the House
with the honourable and learned gentleman, that the constitu-
of Commons before , their eyes, with the experience of their
tion was better adapted for the enj oyment of practical liberty
own accumulated sufferings, was it to be wondered at that men
than that of any other country, but he rather thought that had
should complain, more especially, when the betrayers of their
been the case formerly more than it was at present ; it would
interests, and the authors of their misfortunes, were at the same
be invidious to state any precise epoch when the alteration
time ngahktsiT an attempt to deprive them of their dearest and
began to be most manifest, yet without meaning any thing,
best r
either personal or disrespectful to the king, he must state, that
An honourable gentleman, (Mr. Powys,) the sting of whose
from the time-o • the Revolution till the accession of his pre-
eloquence chiefly consisted in its personality, had alluded to an
sent majesty to the throne, practical liberty had been greater
immense number of people, who had that day been assembled
than it had been since, and that the system which had been
without tumult or disorder. He appealed to the gentlemen
acted upon in this reign • was more hostile to liberty than that
who istv ere presen t,
thle , immense concourse had not
acted upon during the period to which he had alluded. He
e seriously impressed with the import-
declared he could discover nothing in the present-state of
ance of the question, and deeply interested in the issue. He
the country that could justify this new infringement on the
must confess, that of the many meetings which in the course
3
•
3
liberties of the subject intended by the bill. So far from it,
of'his public duty,he had been called upon to attend, he never
the power and influence of the crown were obviously so enor-
lead
tdhisecyovweelle.ed
witnes sed
one, which, from its numbers or deportment,
mons, that all the liberty that subsisted in the country was
so strong an imprcision of the object for which
preserved only by the freedom of speech and the liberty-of
met, , and so fixed a determination to pursue it by all
the press; if either of these were given up, or in any degree
. Proper means. You may prevent men from complaining, said
taken away, the only barrier -that we had against the annihi-
3A,oftrl.rFboixll,s bllutttts3t,oitna
cannot prevent them from feeling. Either
lation of liberty would be completely destroyed.
remain waste paper, or they must becarried
6
TREASON AND SEDITION BILLS.
[NOV. I7:
TREASON AND SEDITION DILLS.
1795.]
into execution with circumstances of the greatest oppression.
might not know of the grievances complained of, and that more
Arid depend upon it, if men speak less, they will feel more, and
than ten persons should present the petition to the king. It also
arms will be left them as the only resource to procure redress
empowered magistrates to interpose their authority when overt
to themselves, c)r exercise vengeance upon their oppressors.
acts of tumult tookbuptlancoe,maend
eting
tonorle.teliie security against any
ugaiIts
Mr. Fox then proceeded to refute the pretexts for not going
cteu;multuously petitioning was the only thing for-
into an inquiry, from the supposed urgency of danger. He
stated the little advantage which ministers had derived from
bw
bireaertaelecihflo.orfbIldenevpnedi
a.
different, exclaimed Mr. Erskine, was this act from
the bill now depending, which even prevented men from petition-
their system of alarm and terror, from an instance personal to
ing! He concluded by animadverting on the language once used
himself. If, at the commencement of the war, it should have
by Mr. Pitt himself, on the subject of parliamentary reform. " We
been proposed, that he should make a speech, as he had that
had lost America," were the minister s words, " through the cor-
day done to thirty thousand people, the question would not
ruption of an unreformed parliament, and we should never have a
have been, whether he should have been suffered to speak, but
wise and honourable administration, nor be freed from the evils
whether he should have been suffered to exist. By that large
of unnecessary war, nor the fatal effects of the funding system, till
a radical reform was obtained." But the man who had spoken
concourse he had that day been heard with unanimity and ap-
these true and memorable words was the same who now charged
probation; so great was the change that had taken place in
with sedition all those who thought and spoke as 11<, had done, and
their sentiments ! He concluded with recommending mi-
who reprobated the measures, which, after he had so bitterly com-
nisters to abandon a system, which had hitherto only been
plained of them in that speech, he had now thought proper to
marked by reverses and disappointments. The pressure of
adopt! — The bill was defended by Mr. Dundas, who took occasion
the war was the original source of the discontents of the people,
to observe that. no member of that House had so. frequently dis-
and the measures taken to repress these discontents, had only
'
tincmished himself by appeals to the people as Mr. Fox, combating
ministers in popular meetings one half' of the day, and attacking
' increased the evil. The bad success of their policy ought to
them with equal fervour in parliament during the remainder. He
induce them to trace back their former steps,
had acted the same part during the American war to as little pur-
Iterate cursus
pose, however, as it would appear he had done 'at present.
•
Mr.
Dundas inveighed, with great asperity, against some particulars in
Relictos ;
his political conduct and connections.
and to try what effects they could produce upon the people,
by treating them with respect and gentleness. He reminded
Mr. Fox said, that if he possessed much of that vanity,
them of the saying of a great man, whom he had often occasion
which the right honourable gentleman had been pleased to
to quote, (Mr. Burke,) " Try all means of gentleness; terror
impute to him, it would have been no small gratification to him
can always be applied to, but never without danger; for if it
• to have formed the subject of not merely one or two or three,
fails in one instance, it produces contempt ever after."
but at least of four different speeches, which he recollected the
right honourable gentleman, considerable in abilities himself,-
The motion was also supported by Mr. Jekyll, Mr. Curwen,
and Sir William Milner. The House divided : for Mr. Sheridan's
high in situation, and great in power, to have made upon his
character and public conduct. On several occasions, he re-
motion 22 : against it, 167.
membered to have been publicly addressed from the same
quarter, in a similar style of catechism, upon his -opinion re-
specting the extent and mode of reform in parliament, and re.,
Novem ber 17.
specting his sentiments upon the influence of the crown and
the proper limits of the royal prerogative. The right honour-
The motion for the second reading of the sedition bill was
able secretary had at that time received several hints from his
strongly supported by the solicitor-general. He was replied to,
most ably and eloquently by Mr. Erskine, who denied that the bill
right honourable friend near him, (the chancellor of the ex-
ch
was consistent with the principles of the British constitution. The
equer,) not to push his enquiries too fhr. On the present
statute enacted in the r 3 th of Charles H. was, he observed, the
occasion, however, he was not fortunate enough to reap the
acknowledged precedent of the present bill : by the tenour of that
benefit of so kind a hint, and therefore he would answer the
statute one hundred thousand individuals might assemble in order
different questions -in the catechism, with all the plainness arid
to concert together a petition : the only prohibitions contained in
sincerity in his power. The first inquiry of the right honour-
that act, were, to hawk the petition about for those to. sign, who
able secretary related to his conduct in the famous MiddleseNt
TREASON AND SEDITION BILLS.
[Nov. 17.
TREASON AND SEDITION BILLS.
election ; in reply to which he was at liberty to affirm, that
079holding them. What was the principle of the present
while he gave his decided opinion in favour of the sovereignty
bill? To restrain the exercise of free discussion at all those
of parliamentary law, he never had uttered any sentiment which
meetings.
rnlngrsig
.
etie
was in the least unfavourable to the right which the people
In honourable secretary had asked, what advantages
indisputably possessed of expressing their sense of every public
had resulted to the country from those political meetings
measure. From the Middlesex-election the right honourable
during the American war ? He did not mean to arrogate to
secretary had proceeded to catechise him upon his conduct
himself any extraordinary share in the opposition which he
during the American war, and by talking of his erecting a stage
made to that war. It did not become him to say much upon
without doors, he seemed to speak with some contempt of the
that subject; he trusted he might, however, be pardoned, if
manner in which he (Mr. Fox) had acted at certain meetings,
he said that the popular meetings in question, tended to hasten
that were held at Westminster-hall and other places, upon these
tile conclusion of that war. Was the right honourable gen-
occasions : he found himself accused with having pronounced
tleman of that opinion, or was he not? What did he think
invectives against persons who were then in high authority.
of the meetings that were held at Norwich and at other places?
The right honourable gentleman had forgotten the conduct
Upon this head the right honourable secretary might have
which his right honourable friend (M •. Pitt) had adopted, and
some information from one of his present friends"', if he
those eloquent speeches he had at that time delivered, in which
wanted any information.
Those measures went further than
public harangues to the people were described as the most
to put an end to the war; they contributed to the correction of
agreeable and most useful duty which representatives in par-
some of the abuses of administration, since the celebrated bill
liament could discharge to their constituents. In answer to
of Mr. Burke, which did that gentleman so much honour, was
the charge, that he had, in a personal manner, attacked those
founded on those measures. Perhaps he should be told, that
who had no opportunity of appearing in their own defence, he
all the meetings that had any effect (indeed, he had been told.
had to say, that it was the duty of every man, and particularly
so already,) were called by the sheriff, and that all that was
of every member of parliament, when the conduct of the exe-
said at the meeting at Westminster had no effect, because it
cutive government was called in question, to represent the
was not a meeting which had that authority. He wished to
characters and conduct of members in their true colours.
know what magic there was in a meeting that was called by
-What was the use or the value of a popular meeting, upon a
the sheriff, in preference to any other public meeting ? So
political subject, without that freedom ? At meetings held in
much of the subject, therefore, as related to public meetings,
Yorkshire and other places at that time, such had been the
he recollected with pleasure and satisfaction. Public meet-
practice of others. Although he had then spoken freely of
ings had contributed to put an end to the American war : and
government, when he opposed its measures, he was willing to
if he had said some things against any of those individuals who
allow others to oppose lhm. In the year 1784, for instance,
advised it, he was consoled with the reflection, that if he had
the house would recollect what had happened. Mr. Burke,
helped to shorten that destructive war only one year, he had
in his emphatical language, had called the parliamentary con-
contributed to prevent the increase of the number of helpless
duct of some gentlemen the revolution of 1784. In that year,
Orphans and mourning widows—he had contributed to lessen
the House could not have forgotten how he had been opposed ;
the distress of the poor and friendless. Let him not be told,
what invectives had been employed against him, and those in
then, that he had acted an unmanly part, by frequenting those
places, where, as the right honourable gentleman had said, he
public meetings. He must again say, that if there was
.iarillyt
could not be present to answer. Did he ever make one un-
•Ig
laltobryloir;putting an end to the American war, he should
manly murmur upon that occasion ? Did he ever complain of
fo hhear that he had, in common with others, a share
that invective? Did he ever say one word against tile sacred
o:wthraihN
vn
Vihen the right honourable secretary talked of
right of the people to assemble and freely discuss political
out at those public meetings, against per-
i
ic
sozinizs‘cv_ho
subjects when those discussions were against him ? Never in
, were not present, he would recommend to hill to
reflect
any one instance had he uttered a syllable that went to ques-
what had happened the day before at the meeting at
tion the' right, or to blame the practice, of holding public
yard. He knew, and if necessary, he could prove, that
meetings of the people. He had endeavoured to answer much
of the reasoning that had been urged against him at these
0 0
meetings; but he had not said a word against the propriety
Mr. Windham. See the note to Vol. v. p. 208,
C 2
20
TREASON AND SEDITION BILLS.
[Nov. 1 7.
TREASON AND SEDITION BILLS.
21
1795'3
there had been manifested a good deal of zeal: in fact, an
feeling which those present had of the propriety of the mea-
active canvass had taken place on the part of ministers, in
sure they were met to adopt. This arose out of the detesta-,
order that their friends might attend that meeting. Messages
tion they felt for the bill before the House. - In that view he
were sent about, stating that it would be agreeable to govern-
saw the utility of such meetings, and it was on that ground
ment if their friends took care to be present. The consequence
that lie attended them. At that meeting the bill met what it
was, an attendance was procured,- and many friends to govern-
ought to meet, and what, if the public had any regard for
ment, persons of authority, were there, among whom was his
their liberties, it would meet all over the kingdom — general
noble colleague, Lord Hood, and two honourable gentlemen
execration and abhorrence. Execration that would be in-
in his eye (Messrs. Canning and Jenkinson); he hoped, there-
creased in consequence of certain opinions that had been lately
fore, the right honourable gentleman would not complain
delivered in that House. The more the public had that feel-
that any attacks had been made on ministers in the absence of
ing (which, thank God, they began to manifest,) the more
their friends that day.
he thought it his duty to give such meetings his countenance;
The right honourable gentleman had also accused him of
meetings on which, perhaps, depended at this moment, the
having altered his course for some years with regard to public
very essence of our constitution. That was his firm and sin-
meetings ; that he had been fond of attending them in the
cere opinion ; and that he believed to be the opinion of the•
earlier part of his parliamentary life, but that he had of late
public; for very plain and very decided language must at
declined them. He admitted the observation to be founded in
this moment be spoken to save the country from absolute
truth ; the reason was, that for some time past he did not see
ruin.
that his attendance at public meetings could be of any use to
The right honourable gentleman had been pleased to pay
the public: whenever he thought it might become so, he was
him compliments on his talents, and had intimated a wish
ready to attend ;' and this he thought a part of his public duty,
that they should never be exercised any where but in that
whatever opinions other persons might entertain upon that
House. To this he would answer, that lie attended that
subject. If ever such attendance had been necessary, it was
House not for pleasure, but for duty; and he trusted that his
so at this time ; when the constitution was attacked, it was the
attendance there might be more or less useful to the public; of
duty of every man to exert himself in its defence : he should
how much use it was, it did not become him to determine.
therefore give all the authority he could pretend to, to such
The right honourable gentleman had then asked, if he ex-
meetings, for the purpose of supporting the rights and liber-
pected to convince that great multitude by his eloquence ?
ties of the people. Avowing that for his motive, he was ready
Most certainly he did not; as little did he expect to convince
to meet any ministerial censure that might be cast upon him.
, that House. It had been said, that the majority of that mul-
The right honourable gentleman had asked him, if he thought
titude came pre-determined ; perhaps they did. Did the
that any efforts of his could be heard with attention ? and
majority of that House come wholly undetermined ? Was
whether he imagined his eloquence could make any impres-
there no resemblance between the House and that meeting in
sion on such a multitude as thirty thousand? He had no
that respect ? He had some experience of the House ; and
such idea; he had nevertheless used all his endeavours to ex-
whenever he wholly despaired of persuading the majority of
plain to them the nature of the subject which they had to
b
tleiecaH
usoe t
uise on points where the constitution was .t stake, he
consider. The right honourable gentleman had also asked,
ttihloeught attending such meetings as those alluded to useful,
whether he thought they applauded him ? I-lis answer was,
public. tenLded to enable him to arrive at the opinion of
that he was not so vain as to expect it : he attended not for
et t Hs be stated to the House; and if this
the purpose of receiving applause, or commanding assent ; he
had no effect upon it, his attendance there would be useless,
went for the purpose of learning the sense of his constituents
and even burtl
on the most important political topic which could be presented
- It was matt
of' observation, that the debates on
for their deliberation. It was, he confessed, somewhat un-
the bill had a:
afforded the first occasion, since
nce
accession
pleasant, particularly at his time of life, to attend popular
the hien:v(71;y
ouse of ;l
to the throne, of an open and
-
liaof
meetings ; the labour and fatigue, however, he considered. as
mentary espousal of the cause of the house of Stuart. On the
the merest trifles, when compared with the fate of the ques-
precedino-
3 it
night
had
ad been said by an honourable baronet,
tion which had yesterday been submitted to the inhabitants of
(Sir
b
Fratlets Basset,) and the idea had been borrowed that
Westminster, whose applause at the meeting arose from the
13
C 3
TREASON AND SEDITION BILLS.
21
TREASON IUD SEDITION BILLS.
[Nov. 17.
23
I 795']
evening by the solicitor-general, that even if there had been a
either of civil or criminal law, so far as their acts would
revolution in the reigns of George the First and Second, it
necessarily be recognized in the decisions of all the various
would not have been accompanied with the same dangers
courts of judicature in the kingdom. But though they might
which would flow from a similar event taking place at the pre-
be competent in point of power, it would not be prudential or
sent crisis; as in the former case, the descendants of the
expedient in many cases to use that power. There were many
house of Stuart might have been reinstated on the throne;
laws of the constitution which never ought to be repealed,
whereas, at the present moment, anarchy, and a general
people which never ought to be
dissolution of all the principles of civilized society, would fol-
pPraivrliiiaeigneesntof the
represented as the only source
low any dispute about the constitutional rights of the sove-
iolnf'vdta.ecnideiraden.ss, and infallible object of public confidence. But
reign. This was jacobitism in perfection, and he was not at
who did not know, that if our ancestors had trusted every
ail surprised at hearing jacobites come forward with such rea-
thing to parliament, their posterity would not have inherited
sonings. What would the house of Stuart have done, had
that constitution which it has been their happiness to en-
they been established on the throne? They would have in-
joy; and that the provision for petitioning the legislature
troduced the catholic instead of the protestant religion. They
would never have found admittance into the bill of rights.
would, perhaps, have put an end to parliaments, resumed the
Even in the reign of King William, the Marquis of Harting-
rights of juries, and subverted the liberty of the press. They
ton moved, in the House of Commons, for a power to be
would not, it was said, have invaded the rights of property,
vested in the people of petitioning his majesty to hold or dis-
nor invented the detestable name of French equality, the
solve the parliament, and to remove the grievances to which
inroads of which our British heroes swear by their lives and
it might be their fate to be subjected. Perhaps he might be
fortunes to resist. But if in the choice of dangers, a man
laughed at for the superstitious veneration in which he held
Must fbrfeit his life and property, in order to avoid a greater
the names of some great and ancient families in the kingdom.
evil, (for the blessings of the constitution were out of the
There was no one for which he had a more profound respect
question, under the government of the Stuarts,) whatever may
than that of Cavendish ; and sorry was he to see, that in a
be the theoretical distinction, there was very little practical
question of such great constitutional importance, not one of
difference between the one or other alternative.
that illustrious family, who had so many seats in parliament,
The right honourable gentleman had deprecated the idea
was to be found either in the minority or the adverse ranks.
of the legislature adopting the doctrine of resistance as a prac-
Mr. Fox defended the sentiments of his honourable and
tical principle, though, at the same time, he allowed, that
learned friend, Mr. Erskine, which had been misunderstood
resistance must inevitably follow from a system of oppression
or misrepresented by the right honourable secretary. His
long pursued. A most worthy and enlightened man, (Ge-
honourable and learned friend did not mean, and no man who
neral La Fayette,) in a neighbouring kingdom, which it was
pretended to the character of a statesman, he was convinced,
the fashion to refer to for instances of atrocious criminality,
would presume to say that property ought not to have great
had affirmed resistance to be the most holy of duties, which
political weight. But even the right honourable gentleman
the people of England were called to exercise ; and perhaps the
himself would not contend, that property had an exclusive
difference between him and the right honourable secretary
right of thinking and speaking upon subjects of constitutional
would, on a second thought, appear but trifling. No man
importance. This would be to rob man of his natural and
ever supposed that the legislature should adopt the doctrine.
indefeasible rights, and to reduce society to its original ele-
of resistance, as a direct and practical maxim, though every
ments. In another place, report declared that a person of
man was convinced, and even the speech of the right honour-
high authority, considerable talents, and great learning (the
able secretary himself strengthened the conviction, that re-
Bishop of Rochester) had said, that the mass of the people
sistance, in certain circumstances, was impossible to be
had nothing to do with the laws, but to obey them. And this
avoided. With respect to the right which parliament pos-
strange assertion had been made by a member of that order,
w
sessed, of altering the bill of rights, he agreed with the right
ho beyond all others were taught in their religiom to_recog-
nize
t
honourable secretary. He never could consent to the pro-
e the natural equality of man. But he trusted that the
position that there were some fundamental laws of the consti-
people of England would not tamely surrender their indis-
p
tution which parliament was incompetent to alter. They
utable and hereditary right, whatever inclination an arbi-
certainly were competent to make any alterations iii the code
minister or a supercilious prelate might betray, to
c 4
24
TREASON AND SEDITION BILLS.
[Nov. 1 7.
TREASON AND SEDITION BILLS..
25
795.3
wrest them out of their possession. How absurd was it, that
be a dissolution of parliament, would the crown countenance
because a man had not the good fortune to have a freehold
such purpose, as long as the king found
a
for any
petition
cw elification of forty shillings , valued rent, he must not be al-
st to retain. the parliament then in being?
it for
lowed to speak his sentiments on subjects which involve his
interest that redress of public grievances was the
On the
dearest and'most important concerns! At present he would
t, how could the people expect the countenattce of those
not enter into the arguments for and against parliamentary re-
objec
men to such an object, from whom all their grievances pro-
form. The sum of the argument on the one side was, that the
ceeded, and who afforded the real cause of complaint? The
people of the country were not equally represented; and the only
however, was not the least exceptionable; after
answer bearing the smallest semblance of speciousness, which
had been convened, a justice of peace might,
had been made, was, that though the people were not equally
unde various
,us pretences, dissolve it; so that its proceedings
and individually represented, the aggregate body was to all
were to be entirely subject to his caprice: Suppose, for
intents and purposes, virtually represented ; and that, for
example, that a petition for a reform in parliament was to
instance, the member for Westminster was equally zealous in
be the subject which occupied the attention of the meeting;
promoting the general interest of the country, as he was in
the magistrate might take it into his head, that the very idea
consulting the more immediate interests of his constituents.
conveyed an implied contempt of' the present organization
From this reasoning, the inference which naturally occurred
of the House of Commons, and under this impression might
was this, that they who had not an equal influence in chus-
order it immediately to disperse under pain of military exe-
ing representatives in parliament, and who, in fact, had none,
cution, before any of the purposes of the e,
meetine. were axl-
should by the exercise of petition have an opportunity of
swered. All is referred to a discretionary power, which can
making their grievances known to those who were the virtual
be amenable to no earthly tribunal, as no man is accountable
representatives of the nation. Whereas, in the present bill
for the errors of his understanding.
the privileges of petition, as well as the powers of election,
Mr. Fox applied this reasoning to the meeting at Copen-
were confined to boroughs and corporations who actually
hagen House, the object of which he contended to be strictly
had representatives whom they had it in their power to entrust
legal, whatever were the forms of the petitions which were
with the exercise of their functions. Would it not, said Mr.
then drawn up, but an object which would have been resisted
Fox, be much more suitable and becoming to extend .this
ci princip'o, had the bill now pending been previously in'
privilege to the poor householders, and the millions of un-
force. There was another clause which was almost too ri-
represented people in the country who have no other medium
diculous to mention, namely, that which prohibited all public
through which to make known their grievances, and to pour
lectures delivered for money. 'What would become of the
in their complaints? Deprive them Of this right of petition-
professors of the different sciences in the universities? Would
ing, and you take from them all that is valuable -in their
they not be clearly involved in the operation of this clause?
political existence. In this view, then, the bill went to in-
But even in its most qualified construction, he could not
stitute a final distinction between the constituents and non-
conceive by what principle of policy a man was to be pro-
constituents in the kingdom; a distinction which was suf-
hibited from acquiring his subsistence by instructing the
ficient to destroy the harmony and peace of the country; to
people in the principles of the constitution. Of Mr. Thel-
confute the only argument which could be adduced in oppo-
wall and his lectures, he was entirely ignorant. If, however,
sition to parliamentary reform, and to convert the government
they were innocent, why should he be disturbed? If they
of the country into an aristocracy, or an oligarchy.
were seditious and treasonable, why was he not prosecuted
Mr. Fox proceeded to inquire how far the bill actually
under the existing statutes? The same observations applied
went in its provisions, to limit the right of petitioning. The
to the papers which had been read by the noble lord (Mor-
ni
sheriff must call the meeting. But what was to be done, if
ngtou): iff theywere treasonable, the authors of them were
a
he refuse to call a meeting upon a subject of' pressing im-
menable to the treason laws. He would not be understood
portance? Can a meeting be held without his permission or
as delivering an opinion whether they were or not, nor even
wheth
not? But was not the sheriff an officer nominated by the
er seditious paper which was circulated oueht to
be su
crown; and what a mockery was it, to solicit permission
b
bmitted to the course of law. He rather thought that
from the crown, to meet in order to petition the crown ?
a judi cious selection of the most elating and dangerous ought
to
Suppose, for instance, that the object of the petition were to
be made by the attorney-g ene al.
26
TREASON AND SEDITION BILLS.
[Nov. .
TREASON AND SEDITION BILLS.
27
1795.]
Mr. Fox then adverted to the general principle of the bill
if the increase of danger was not owing to the
in the most animated and pointed terms. It was not, he said,
mantled,
w
been unfortunately was unjustly commenced, and had
asse.
a blow at the outworks of the constitution — it was a daring
afoiw
p rosecuted? If the danaer was dimin
ished,
attempt to subvert its very foundation. Upon the liberty of
b
Id theyje apply
pply a more hazardous remedy, than when
the press and freedom of discussion, the basis of the con-
why
as described as raging with its utmost fury?
stitution was known to rest. Take away these, and the whole
ct hea n:1iistoeu
a l
was the degree of danger in which the country
fabric must fall. No man would deny that there were many
stood,
was firmly of opinion, that it would be in-
abuses and defects in the practice of the constitution. Its
rather than lessened by the remedy propos
The
proposed. Th
chief value consisted in the excellence of the foundation ; and
ncW
roelav'sa esttetiovoerrdad
danger had principally arisen from a system of terror, which
when that was destroyed, the rest would not be worth pre-
ministers had adopted ; and the most effectual mode of pro-
serving. For almost any other shock which it could have
tracting the danger was by continuing this system, of which
received, a remedy might have been found. Had parliament
the present bill seemed to form a most prominent part.
thought proper to alter the succession to the crown from the
Mr. Fox next adverted to what had been said of the danger
present family on the throne, dreadful convulsions would no
of universal suffrage and annual parliaments. They had been
doubt have ensued, but the investiture of a new prince with
represented as the cause of the subversion of the old French
the sovereign power might have quieted the commotion.
government, and they were described as the instrument em-
Had parliament made a bold and open attack upon the trial
ployed by the Corresponding Society, to demolish the British
by jury, a speedy remedy would have been found iu the
Constitution. He professed himself no friend to either; but
deluge of argument and declamation which would imme-
he quoted the high authority of the Duke of Richmond, by
diately have issued from the press. Petitions would have
whom they had been supported, and drew this inference,
been poured in, remonstrating against the assault on pub-
that the opinions of those in the higher and lower stations
lic liberty ; and the voice of the people raised with una-
of society were treated in a very different stile of respect.
nimity and firmness, would have awed the proudest minister
When tile members of corresponding societies think now,
into submission. But when the power of speaking was taken
as the Duke of Richmond thought some years ago, there is
away, what was there left but the patience of implicit sub-
a general outcry, Will you presume to touch the sacred ark
mission? What hopes could be entertained that grievances
of the constitution with unhallowed hands? But nothing was
would be removed when those who felt them dared not com-
said when a daring minister conies forward, —not, indeed, with
plain? In such a case, it would give him but little anxiety
unhallowed hands, for a minister's hands are like those of the
that a spirit of resistance was found impossible to be sup-
high priest of old, which it would be sacrilege even to look
pressed. At present he believed a spirit of discontent to be
at, — not to touch it only, but to tear it in pieces.
pretty general in the country, and he had no hesitation in
The sole reason assigned for this outrage against the con-
saying, that it originated in a bad government, in wicked
stitution, was, that when new occasions happen, new changes
and ruinous measures, and in the blind and unmeaning con-
must take place. Mr. Fox here exposed the fallacy of the
fidence which the people had reposed in an unfortunate and
assertion, that universal suffrage was the cause of the downfall
desperate administration. The discontent might, perhaps,
of the ancient despotism of France, and of the overthrow of
exist in some degree previous to the war, but he affirmed
the first constitution. He urged upon the serious consider-
that it had spread since to. a much more alarming extent.
ation of ministers the situation into which they had reduced
If the discontent originated in French principles, it was
the country, and implored them to give up a system which
indebted for its currency to the measures of Beitish ministers.
was pregnant with ruin, and to employ every lenient and
He wished to bring them to issue upon this point. They
ilNi ,t
Natlso.ry means for gaining the affection of tile people,
said the people of England were loyal; so said he. They
aannadrely
attaching them to the constitution: He said, he knew
asserted that there were malcontents in the country; in this
there
a ;frit in the country to ward off the ravages of
also he agreed. But he would ask, whether the danger to
lie hoped, also, there was a spirit to resist the strides
be apprehended from French principles, was greater now or
of oppression. Before he sat down, he would say a few
two years ago? Let them say either the one or the other;
words with respect to the general scarcity of provisions that
but he intreated them, for God's sake, not to say both. Fore
Prevailed, though not connected with the subj ect before the
his own part, he thought it was greater. If it was, he de-
House. If the war was not the principal cause of the scar-
TREASON AND SEDITION BILLS.
28
TREASON AND SEDITION BILLS.
[Nov. 23.
29
1 795.]
city, that it was an integral part could not be disputed.
He wished for the delay, because it appeared that these bills
were mast reprobated where they were best known, and that
Thou gh the harvest was in general abundant, yet wheat was
not so productive as had been expected. Other articles of
they met with an equivocal approval only where their merits
consumption which were more plentiful were equally dear;,
had not been discussed. The ample discussion of the sedi-
so dear, that the poor could not, for the price of labour (which
tion bill, as it was termed, had afforded ministers an oppor-
was in no proportion to the dearness of provisions) buy enough
tunity of refuting every misrepresentation. Did it however
of bread. There were many other mischiefs that followed in
appear that theie• . explanations had satisfied the country ?
the train of a destructive war, the expences of which had
By no means. The right honourable gentleman expressed
lowered the value of money, as it had increased the price of
discussion of the bills, and a confidence
necessaries. Though the blessings of returning peace could
ianw'ttseh eftf
oercthoeffutlritalei
ti discussion.
ciscussion. Had he not had an oppor-
not in a month, or a year, restore plenty, and repair the
tunity of discussing them; and had lie not seen and felt that
hardships of the war, still they afforded the only cure for
the spirit of the country rose with the debate? If such had
famine and poverty. Thus he might in some degree say —
not been the case, he should have been mortified and hurt.
Sublata causa, lollitur ej'ectus. The war ended, peace would, ,.,,
The right honourable gentleman had charged him with ar-
it' not immediately, at least in time, bring back the country
tifice and misrepresentation.
He had not practised any. He
to its former state of prosperity. Mr. Fox concluded a mas,
had stated nothing without doors that he had not stated
terly speech by saying, that he should consider it an unpar-
within ; nothing that was not consonant with his sincere
donable omission to conceal from the people, that they had
opinion : if he expressed himself 'in strong terms without
to reproach themselves for a great part of their calamities
doors, he had spoken with equal ardour and vehemence within
by their supineness, in not bringing ministers to an account
those walls. His opinion on the bills was precisely what he
for their destructive measures, and with calling on the House
had declared it to be — that they repealed the bill of rights,
to be aware of what they were doing, and not to continue a
and subverted the constitution of the country. He had no
blind confidence in government to the ruin of the country.
recourse to indirect means; nor did he, as the right honour-
able gentleman had done, exert his influence by under agents.
The House divided on the motion for the second reading of the
He courted public discussion, being well assured, that the
bill :
more the principle was discussed, the more general would be
Tellers.
'
Tellers.
the odium and detestation with which it would be regarded.
Solicitor-General}
{Mr. Erskine 1
He did not wish to see the bills altered or amended; he
2I3.-NO Es
YEAS
Mr. St. John S 43'
{Mr. Neville
rather hoped they might pass in their present form, because,
as the attack was to be made upon the rights and liberties
of the nation, he wished that . attack should be open, broad,
November 23.
and intelligible to the people at large. He wished the bills
to be pushed fairly forward, with all their force, that the
Mr. Pitt having moved, " That the order of the day for going
people might feel and see the full extent of the danger that
into a committee on the treason bill be discharged, and that
rroctoniiicitietcili had
the House do resolve itself into the said committee on the 25th
stluie
ec,.itated, should not steal upon them by
instant ;"
s urprize, and by gradation sap and undermine them. He
Mr. Fox said, he felt himself called upon by the expression
palates, but that poison of these bills to be sweetened to their
of the right honourable gentleman, who had asserted, that
against the dreadful d people should be prepared. and cautioned
ag
the voice of the people had not been fairly taken, and that
rai'g
" We would not vote for these
delays were made for the express purpose of misrepresent-
bills," say the members to their constituents, " if we could
ation. How was this proved? He had applied, it was true,
foresee the intended mischief." What attention however had
the
for delay : but was that a proof of misrepresentation ? Cer-i
right honourable gentleman paid to public opinion ?
'
tainly not. It was uniformly the wish of those who mis-
Where is his charge of misrepresentation ? Has he heard
die
e voice
id
o
s ef x ?
represented facts and opinions to hasten precipitately to their
the country? Has he heard the voice of West-
ielg
muist r
object. They must know that every hour would unveil some
Of the common hall of London ? Of' the county
Middlesex
part of the delusion, would demolish some part of the artifice.
TREASON AND SEDITION BILLS.
30
TREASON AND SEDITION' BILLS.
[Nov. 2 3 ,
31
1 795.]
795 .
If, indeed, the opinion of the majority were in favour of
ever, the constitution was to
violated, lie wished that the
these bills; if he scould believe it possible that the people of
in
people might see the attack
all its glaring, open treason,
this country were so degraded and abject as to prefer
might be roused to its defence. He certainly, there-
h a t they
slavery to liberty, or to countenance these bills with any thing
hould not lend himself to qualify the atrocious wicked-
fore, s
like their approbation ; if they did not so generally express
ness of these bills. Mr. Fox concluded with moving to adjourn
their abhorrence of them, as to show that they yet retained
the debate till that day fortnight.
an unabating attachment to the constitution of their ancestors;
he could only say, that he could no longer be a profitable
Mr. Pitt said, he did not rise to follow the right honourable
servant of the people. He might sit down in silence, and
gentleman through. the whole of his speech ; but there were sonic
passages in it which, consistently with his duty as a member of
enjoy in the tranquillity of private life, the society of his
parliament, with his feelings as a man, with his attachment to his
friends; but he could not, with the feelings he possessed, be
sovereign, and his veneration for the constitution, he could not
a profitable servant of the people. If, on the contrary, the
hear, without rising instantly to express his horror and indignation
people of England were, as he truly believed them to be,
at them. The right honourable gentleman, he observed, had
decidedly against these bills ; not a mere concerted majority,
made a bold, broad, and unqualified declaration, that if his argu-
but the great mass of the people against them; then, un-
ments and his measures did not prevent the passing of bills, which
doubtedly they bad a right to demand his services, and he
a great majority of the House conceived to be necessary for the
should hold himself hound to obey the call. He had a right
security of the person of the sovereign, and the preservation of
to hope and expect that these bills, which positively repealed
the rights of the people, he would have recourse to different means
of opposition. He had avowed his intention of setting up his
the bill of rights, and cut up the whole of the constitution
own arguments in opposition to the authority of the legislature.
by the roots, by changing our limited monarchy into an ab-
He had said, that if he was asked his advice, he would put the
solute despotism, would not be enacted by parliament against
propriety of resistance only on the question of prudence ; without
the declared sense of a great majority of the people. If,
adverting whether the consequences of this advice might be fol-
however, ministers, so resolute on their spirit of destruction,
lowed by the penalties of treason, and the danger of convulsion ;
were determined, by means of the corrupt influence they
thus openly advising an appeal to the sword, which must either
possessed in the two Houses of Parliament, to pass the bills,
consign its authors to the vengeance of the violated law, or involve
in violent opposition to the declared sense of a great majority
the country in anarchy and bloodshed. The right honourable
gentleman had taken care not to be mistated ; happily for the
of the nation, and they should be put in force with all their
country, this declaration of his principles was too clear to admit
rigorous provisions, if his opinion were asked by the people,
of a doubt. With all the horror he felt at such language, he was
as to their obedience, he should tell them, that it was no.
glad the right honourable gentleman had been so unreserved and
longer a question of moral obligation and duty, but of pru-
explicit. The House and the country would judge of that gen-
dence. It would, indeed, be a case of extremity alone which
tleman's conduct from his language ; they might see the extent
could justify resistance, and the only question would be,
of his veneration for the constitution, and of his respect for par-
whether that resistance was prudent ? He was aware that
liament, when in violation of his duty, in defiance of legal
these words were liable to misconstruction, and he knee:
punishment, he could bring himself to utter such sentiments.
that ministers were adepts in the art of misrepresentation ;
He was glad the right honourable gentleman had made that
avowal, because lie hoped it would warn all the true friends of the
but a public man must not shrink in times of' danger from
constitution to rally round it for its defence.
strong expressions, because they may be misconstrued, or
misrepresented. What he said, he said deliberately ; and it
Mr. Pox said in explanation : The right honourable gen-
was for the authors and abettors of the bills to consider
tl
whether they would hurry the parliament to the passing of
eman's talent for misrepresentation is neither unknown to
them, before it could be ascertained whether they had the
myself nor to the House. I rise to re-state my expression,
but not to retract one word of what I have said. Let the
sense of the people with them or not. With regard to the
amendments that might be made in the committee, he re-
words be taken down at the table. They express the senti-
ments of an honest Englishman, they are those sentiments
peated what he had said before on the subject, that no mend-
for which our forefathers shed their blood, and upon which
ing could qualify this attack on the constitution. He repeated
the rev
it, the poison might be concealed, it might be made more
olution was founded : but let me not be mistated. The
palatable, and it would be so much the worse. If, how-
Case I put was, that these bills might be passed by a corrupt
32
TREASON AND SEDITION BILLS.
[Nov. 23.
TREASON AND SEDITION BILLS.
33
1795.]
majority of parliament, contrary to the opinion and sentiments
of the great body of the nation. If the majority of the people
November 24.
approve of these bills, I will not be the person to inflt me their
minds, and stir them up to rebellion ; but if, in the general
Mr. Erskine having this day presented a petition f•:n the
opinion of the country, it is conceived that these bills attack
merchants, bankers, and other inhabitants of London against tha.
the fundamental principles of our constitution, I then main-
_treason and sedition bills, its reception was opposed by Mr. Serjeunt
tain, that the propriety of resistance, instead of remaining any
Adair, Alderman Newnham, and others.
longer a question of morality, will become merely a question
of prudence. I may be told that these are strong words; but
Mr. Fox said,. that several things had been observed and
strong measures require strong words. I will not submit to
stated in the course of the debate, which ought _not t6 go
arbitrary power, while there remains any alternative to vin-
unnoticed. Insinuations against the conduct of noble dukes
dicate my freedom.
appearing at public meetings, and the novelty of such be-
haviour had been thrown out. The Middlesex meeting was
Mr. Sheridan repeated what Mr. Fox had stated, with respect
not, he observed, the first instance in which peers and mem-
to resistance. If, he said, a degraded and oppressed majority of
bers of parliament had taken a share in county meetings. In
the people applied to him, he would advise them to acquiesce in
the year 1780, meetings of that sort had been frequent, and
those bills, only as long as resistance was imprudent. They had
had proved highly useful. He was convinced by the influence
affirmed, that these bills went directly to overturn the constitution;
and spirit they had excited, that they had tended to abridge,
if they were sincere in that language, what other answer could
they give to the people than that which they now avowed ? What
by at least one or two years, the duration of a cruel and im-
contemptible wretches must they be, if, while under the shelter of
politic war. Similar meetings had on various occasions been
their privilege, they professed the measures to be calculated to
held, and he would defy any man to deny the
1
advant; a s that
0e
overturn the constitution, and infringe the bill of rights, they
had resulted from them to the country.
shrank hack on such an occasion, from stating that which they.
Alarms, it was asserted, had been spread concerning the
conceived to be the undoubted right of the subject — to resist
tendency of the bills now pending in parliament, and that
oppression, when all legal means of redress were refused. To the
these meetings were calculated to inflame and irritate the
declaration of Mr. Fox he implicitly subscribed. It must be the
minds of the people against measures of no serious consequence
feeling of every true Englishman ; of every man Who acknowledged
to their liberties and the constitution. Was it possible that
the principles which seated the illustrious family of Brunswick on
the throne. His right honourable friend had said, that if the
he should forget the zeal and activity which had been exerted
people of England were so dead to all their former feelings, that
to spread alarm without doors concerning the tendency of his
they wished for these bills, then he was no longer a fit servant for
India bill ? One right honourable gentleman, the present
such a people W and he had no occasion to have made that declar-
chancellor of the. exchequer, in arguing against that measure,
ation ; they did, and must know that the frame and texture of his
had boldly avowed, that•he would employ every means in his
soul could never suffer him to be the servant of slaves, as they
power to spread alarm among the people; and while he
must be if these bills passed into laws. — Mr. Grey also said, that
recollected. the circumstance, it was with the utmost satis-
from the principle which had been maintained by his right ho-
ilvlcs the
faction
a tin
recollected
y the answer he then returned, that it
nourable friend, he would not shrink ; and. he would repeat with
lcileutyr'eof l ever
him, that if, by the government of the country, measures were
nsituation• my member to explain to his constituents
nature of those
carried into effect, contrary to the wishes of a great majority of
e
lose measures by which they were to be aPcted.
III 0
the people, and contrary to the liberties of the nation, if he
in which he 1111(1 been placed, had he forgotten
or ceased
should be asked, whether the people ought to refrain from resist-
0
d to respect the right of the subject to investigate
public
.
ance, he would say, that they-should only he induced to refrain.
affairs, nor did lie attempt to check that discussion,
w
by motives of prudence. With respect to the bills themselves;
rea
hen it , th atrs,tene d
I
to be unfavourable
avourable to the measures which
lie
he concurred entirely with his right honourable friend, that no
posed, and which he was convinced were advantageous
modification could make them otherwise than hostile to the prin.,
to the country He declared, he considered it as a symptom
ciples of the constitution.
of
cd
the decay o the principles of the constitution, when, since
the year 1 78o, such a revolution had taken place in the -e.n-
timent‘i, and . f
,oulu
gentlemen
an alteration in the language of g
Upon that im
0 ' 0
p ortant point.
.
COL. VI.
A
TREASON AND SEDITION BILLS.
[Noy. 24,,
TREASON AND SEDITION BILLS: '
35
With equal astonishment bad he heard the attempts which
lotion. It must be admitted, therefore, that no misinter-
had been made to detract from the weight of that almost
pretation had taken place; but that it was indubitably true
universal public disapprobation by which the bills had been
that a meeting in such a situation was merely a nominal
condemned. It was roundly asserted that other petitions
vilege, and that the efficient importance or utility of it was
would come forward to counteract the influence of those al-
entirely done away. With regard to the responsibility of the
ready presented. Of that the House knew nothing ; it was
magistrate, a difference of opinion certainly was entertained,
an absurd and ridiculous preference of speculation to facts,
but none as to his right of interference. Why, then, flatter
which it was presumptuous to indulge. A worthy alderman
or delude men with the idea that they have the right to meet
(Mr. Lushington) had not only undertaken to answer for the
and deliberate, when its exercise depends on so precarious a
merchants and bankers of London, and for his constituents,
circumstance as the virtue or the caprice of the superintending
in contradiction to the positive vote of the Common Hall, but
magistrates? Was it ever contradicted that this was the case?
for three-fourths of the householders of the kingdom. Where
Whatever might be the degree of responsibility, it was un-
were the facts upon which this assertion rested ? Were three-
doubted that the meeting might be dissolved. — Mr. Fox was
fourths of the householders of 'Westminster for the bills?
proceeding, when lie was called to order; and it was stated
Would the worthy alderman tell him that the supporters of
that the argument into which he had gone was irregular.
the bills Lad appealed to the parochial meetings with more
Mr. Fox made an observation or two upon the call to order,
success than they had appealed to general meetings? It was
and then said, that he should not trouble the House farther
almost incredible, he said, that gentlemen should blind, not
than to declare that if it had been supposed to have been
merely their understandings against the reception of truth,
literally stated by his honourable and learned friend, that
but even against the testimony and demonstration of their
no meeting could be held in future, that supposition was
senses. It indicated a perverseness of mind, which would
certainly unfounded ; but if it had been supposed to have
hear and see and judge of nothing that was unwelcome, and
been stated that no free meetings could be held in future, to
which, in spite of the clearest evidence, doubted of every fact
that statement lie pleaded guilty. The distinction wnS so
that was disagreeable. Will they tell me, said Mr. Fox, that
frivolous, as to be wholly unworthy of any man of sense and
three-fourths of the inhabitants of Westminster are not against
understanding.
these bills, without contradicting my very senses ?
The petition was ordered to lie on the table.
But it was said, that the opposers of the bills bad been
guilty of misrepresentation. Be it so, for the sake of argu-
ment, said Mr. Fox. They tell us, that other petitions will
November 25.
appear, and testify a different sense in the people. This, at
This day a motion was made by Mr. Curwen to postpone for
least, was a powerful reason for delaying the progress of the
one week the discussion of the two bills. It was supported by
bills till these actually were brought forward. It had been
Mr. Harrison, Mr. Whitbread, Mr. Lambton, and Mr. I'ox. Mr.
said by a learned friend of his, (Mr. Serjeant Adair,) that
Whitbread animadverted with uncommon warmth upon the bills.
these very petitions did not speak the sense of those who
Ministers, he said, pretended that the bills were to secure the
signed them. This was, at once anal without proof; to take up
liberties and constitution of the country. He was not surprised at
such pretences, for he knew that it had been the practice of weak
a particular case, instead of the general presumption. The
politicians and of furious bigots, in all ages, to pretend, while they
learned serjeant had accused his learned friend near him of
secretly undermined any institution, that they were putting that
misrepresenting the scope of the bills, when he said that such
stitution on a firmer basis. had not the axe, the whael, and the
a meeting as that from which the petition was presented could
stake, been used to enforce that mild religion we professed ? Now,
not take place were the bill passed into a law. With the
he would unequivocally affirm, that these bills were exactly of a
explanation lie had repeatedly given, he would plead guilty
similar nature, and equally detestable with the most despotic mea-
to this accusation. He had stated, he said, that in such a
sures of the most accursed tyrant upon earth. Instead of behold-
meeting, no matter could be discussed freely, or to any effect.
mg the people prosper under a government of freedom, justice,
They might meet, no doubt, but for how long a time ? No
and mercy, we should soon see them sink under a government of
tyranny, cf persecution, and of blood — aye of blood! Was -there
longer than till the magistrate thought, or chose to appear to
no blood in this bill ? What did it tend to . but the shedding the
think, that something improper had been done, on which lie
blood ofhis majesty's subjects, when it so slightly enforced military
might disperse them, and prevent their . coming. to any reso-
execution ? The bill was a severe and rigorous act ; and if
D 2
36
TREASON AND SEDITION BILLS.
[NOV, 25e
1797. ]
TREASON AND SEDITION BILLS. •
37
was possible to heighten the rigour of it, it was now to be passed
reason to complain than himself: The honourable and learned
into a law without the smallest shadow of necessity.— The motion
gentleman . luid accused gentlemen on that side of the House
was opposed by Mr. Wallace, Mr. Hiley Addington, and Mr.
of wishing to produce this dilemma, either that the people
William Grant, afterwards master of the rolls.
were animated by an universal spirit of loyalty, or that they
were inflamed with a spirit of disaactioa. He had never
Mr. Fox said, he had listened with sincere pleasure, in
said that the people were completely harmonious in their poli-
common with every man in the House, to the able and elo-
tical sentiments or opinions, or that no discontent prevailed.
quent speech delivered by the learned gentleman who hid just
It had, however, been often stated on his side of the House,
sat down. He respected the talents of that learned gentleman,
and he would call upon the honourable and learned gentle-
and admired his ingenuity. Nor did he mean any thing in the
man to say, whether he believed the spirit of dissatisfaction
least disrespectful to the masterly display of both, which he
was greater or less at present than it had been previous to the.
had made on the present occasion, when he said, that though
war. He had never stated, because he had never believed,
his speech was full of argument, and replete with eloquence,
that the state of public affairs was wholly without danger. If
a man Might safely subscribe to every statement he had
it was allowed to be greater, to what cause was the increase to be
brought forward, and every conclusion he had drawn, and yet
attributed ? He was surely entitled to presume that it was oc-
vote against the present bill.
casioned by the discontents excited by an impolitic and un-
The ingenuity of the honourable and learned gentleman
just war ; by the measures of a corrupt, incapable adminis-
had, indeed, made no inconsiderable impression upon the
tration ; and that it was ascribable to the complicated mise-
House; though his arguments seemed not so much to bear on
ries arising from the decay of commerce, and the pressure of
the principle of the bill under immediate discussion, as on the
famine, into which the country had been plunged. The war,
general policy of legislation. He felt the difficulty, therefore,
then, had produced an effect directly the reverse of that stated
in replying to a speech of that nature. Able and extensive
by ministers themselves as the chief reason for triumphing in
as it had been, lie was not in the least disposed, nor did he
its success. If', on the other hand, the ground of apprehension
believe any sober politician would be inclined to controvert
was less, why were the sacrifices required for public security to
the principles laid down by the honourable and learned gen-
be increased ? He asked pardon of the House for the repetition
tleman in the beginning of his speech. His position was, that,
in which he indulged; but when the same arguments came
at a time of considerable danger, it was proper to give up part
from the opposite bench, and the same objections were offered
of the constitution, in order to secure the remainder. That
to gentlemen on his side of the House, he could not forbear
maxim abstractedly considered, was incontrovertible ; before
repeating that material question.
it could have any weight, however, when applied in a practical
With regard to the point of danger, of which the honour-
view, it was necessary to prove the existence of the danger, its
able and learned gentleman was so anxious to have a specific
extent and magnitude ; it would also be necessary to she•,
declaration of his sentiments, he had always stated, that some
that the remedy called for was exactly a surrender of that por-
discontent existed, which might not be unworthy of attention,
tion of the constitution which it might be proper to sacrifice,
but which would never justify the legislative remedies pro-
and not more than the value of the object to be secured. The
posed. The honourable and learned gentleman had affected
degree of constraint which government was to impose, could
to treat as a paradox the observation of his honourable
be the only ground of doubt and difference of opinion. That
friend, (Mr. Lanibton,) that the danger of an attack was
government was in its application a system of restraint upon
often created by the injudicious mode of defence. If it was
human action, was clear and -Undeniable. It was important,
a paradox, however, it was one of those which frequent experi-
however, to consider well the quantity and the quality of the
ence proved to be true. Who could deny that many political
restraint which circumstances might require.
evils were rendered desperate by the absurd methods pursued
The honourable and learned gentleman had complained,
to remedy or to remove them? Was the honourable and
that it was the temper of the times to take every general prin-
learned gentleman so much more of a Whig than himself; as
ciple as ;meant to apply universally, and to fasten upon the
to impute the whole evils of the civil wars, and the resistance to
person who employed it all the absurd consequences which
Charles I. to which the nation owed its liberties, to the conduct
might arise from such an application. He admitted the truth
of that ill-fated monarch ? Did the honourable and learned
of the observation, and was convinced that no man had better
gentleman believe all these calamities were to be ascribed to the
D 3
TREASON AND SEDITION BILLS.
[Nov. 2 S.
1795.] TREASON AND SEDITION BILLS.
38
39
illegality of ship-money, or of various other acts of that prince?
were displeased with abuses, and at the same time reconcile
Had there not been at that time a body of persons, previously
those to the constitution who had been alienated by its
inimical to the constitution ; and was not the attack upon the
monarchy rendered formidable, and even tragical in the event,
honourable and learned gentleman, in animadverting
by the rigorous measures which rendered the breach irrepara-
odielfT
Nevcie
ll:as.t .had been said to come from gentlemen on his side, had
ble? The honourable and learned gentleman had also men-
only engendered a monstrous doctrine to show his dexterity
tioned the case of the Americans. When that unfortunate dis-
M demolishing it. It had never been said, much less con-
pute was first agitated, and when he heard scraps of pam-
tended, that the verdict of juries on the state trials had proved
phlets and papers read, to prove . that there was a settled design
that no seditious practices existed, but merely that the traitor-
formed to shake off the connection with this country, he had
ous conspiracy was proved to be ill-founded. He had no he-
never been so unqualified a supporter of America, as to as-
sitation to declare, that he considered the verdict of the jury
sert that no such designs were entertained. He was con-
on that point to be of more w.Light than the report of die secret
vinced, however, that those who had conceived the project
committee. The honourable and learned gentleman had at-
of separating from the mother country were few indeed. By
tempted to point out On inconsistency between the language
injurious attempts to remedy the evils then complained of, the
at present held, and that which they had heard upon the re-
catastrophe which it was intended to prevent was realised.
port of the secret committee. The honourable and learned
The honourable and learned gentleman had recurred to the
gentleman likewise had confounded a variety of circumstances,
fallacy so often answered, of which gentlemen on his side were
and, from the result of his own combinations, had endeavoured
accused, that they ascribed the discontents to the measures of
to fix on his side of the House that inconsistency which he
his majesty's ministers. The honourable and learned gentle-
had first invented, and then urged as a charge of incon-
man asked, did not these discontents exist before the war, to
sistency.
which much of the discontent was imputed, had been com-
With regard to the degree of danger the honourable
menced? Here again he would recall the two examples he had
and learned gentleman imputed to the corresponding and
already employed. In the time of Charles the First there
other societies, (principles which he charged upon no authority,)
might have existed causes of dissatisfaction, which, neverthe-
it was impossible to believe that, among the whole, there was
less, the extravagant pretences of that prince, and the in -
a majority unfavourable to monarchy. They might, indeed,
policy of his ministers in urging them, carried to that height
have professed to maintain the doctrine of annual parliaments,
which proved so fatal to themselves. At one period a com-
and universal suffrage. These principles, however, were not
promise with America was practicable, but the opportunity of
borrowed from the French ; they had been inculcated in dis-
conciliation was lost, and the desperate system pursued in
courses and writings, by respectable characters in Great
this country for ever cut off ail hopes of that compromise being
Britain many years since; and if they contained the evil im-
effected.
puted to them, the French might complain, with more justice,
It had been said, that much danger was to be apprehended
that they had been imported into France from this country.
from that party hostile to the constitution drawing to itself all
Those societies, the honourable and learned gentleman had
the discontented persons of the country. If the strength of
observed, must have some determinate object; either they were
this party depended upon the discontent which a bad govern-
deserving of encouragement, or of disapprobation. Could
ment produced, and as the worst administration necessarily
there, he exclaimed, be no division of men, or opinions, which
would occasion the most discontent, he would defy any man to
they might overlook, without being censured for their appro-
deny that a great part of the ill humour arose from the bad
bation, or accused for their neglect? Must the intolerance of
F
conduct of ministers. If the discontented were composed of
rench politics be adopted, which permits no minority, but
two kinds, those who were enemies to the constitution, and
which proceeds to violence, bloodshed, and extermination?
those who, from a spirit of discontent, joined their party and
many opinions which it was indifferent to approve,
encreascd its number, correct the abuses which had been so
Dr to condemn; and the dilemma which the honourable and
l
much the subject of complaint, introduce moderation and
earned gentleman
eci gentleman employed was the most absurd and ridicu-
economy in the public expenditure, and banish that cor-
lous that had ever been framed. Was a man bound to attack
ruption which had crept into the representative body. Such
every opinion different from his own? He had never been
a
a proceeding would separate those from the disaffected who.
dvocate for annual parliaments; yet that opinion had been
"II
D 4
TREASON
1795:3
AND SEDITION BILLS.
41
TREASON AND SEDITION BILLS.
r.sTov. 25.
40
.
able and learned - guitletnan seriously say .he believed it rational
avowed and maintained at various periods Within this century.
to frame a legislative provision which was to affect a whole
By the tories it was held as a favourite doctrine; and it had
nation, with respect to the most important part of its rights,
been said that the restoration of that system was a part of the
1
on the ground of the determination of seven persons ? The
plan of politics taken up in the beginning of the present reign,
revolution in France was not to be accounted for in that
though that condition had never been observed. Instead, then,
manner, nor was that the period at which they were to date
of attempting to legislate on this subject, it would be most
its commencement. When, then, was the period ? What
proper to allow the public to judge for themselves, and trust
WAS the cause of' the revolution of the loth of August,
to the good sense of the English nation. He had stated all
792 '?
Be it remembered, that he was no advocate for the conduct of
his opinions. He had never evaded an explicit declaration.
the jacobins; no liberal man would accuse him of it ; though
It was now to be considered how far the bill was applicable to
he knew he must put up with that ill-founded charge from
the object it professed to have in view. If Englishmen had
others. Let them inquire into the cause of the success of the
been seduced from their attachment to the constitution, how
jacobins in France ; such an inquiry was necessary in order to
could it be restored by the present bill? Meetings might, in-
e,
5
be able to follow the arguments of the honourable and learned
deed, be put a stop to, but a total communication of senti-
gentleman upon that subject. He would say, then, that they
ment could not be prevented. The intercourse of the mind
were concluding irrationally indeed, if they said it was owing
would remain. If there were, as represented by the honour-
entirely to the doctrine. of the jacobins that the horrors of that
able and learned gentleman, something so fascinating in the
day were exhibited, or that they were the cause of the dreadful
opinions it was to proscribe, the prospect was indeed alarming.
catastrophe or the late unfortunate monarch of that country ;
Good God, Sir ! said Mr. Fox, in such a case, what must be
a
prince whose cruel fate might induce them to overlook the
the horrors of our situation, when, in addition to its other
errors of his reign. In fact, his fate was in a great degree
evils, this detestable bill, strong as the measure is, is found to
owing to his avowed connection with the nobility of that coun-
be inadequate to its purpose !
try; a nobility whose views were hostile to the interests of the
The honourable and learned gentleman had treated with a
people. He believed the king and his ministers were guilty
degree of contempt an opinion of his honourable friend,
of planning what was attempted at that time against the
(Mr. Sheridan,) that the difference of habits, government,
people. Supposing even that they were not, he would ask, was
and character, would prevent the people of this country from
not the suspicion that they were guilty, a great cause of the
ever sinking into the horrors to which the French, unpre-
revolution of the moth of August, 1792 ? At that time the
pared for freedom, had been exposed. Did the right ho-
king's brother had left him ; and the situation of his family,
nourable gentleman think that the negroes of the plantations,
and theirconnection with the house of Austria, then known
or the subjects of Russia, Turkey, or Germany, were capable
to be enemies to the government of France, were so well as-
of that liberty with which an Englishman might be indulged ?
certained, that their objects could not be doubted. Did not
It was not fair, therefore, to reason from Frenchmen to
these circumstances give ample room for suspicion, on the
Englishmen, or to argue that in such dissimilar circumstances
part of the French, as to the intentions of the king, and those
the same events would take place. Was the honourable and
ministers by whose council he was so fatally guided? If
learned gentleman correct in his information concerning the
this were admitted, be had a right to say, that the cata-
French revolution? The jacobin club produced, per laps,
strophe was no more accelerated by the wickedness of those
terrible effects upon minds not prepared for so great a change.
w htoenadett(ai cked, than by the baseness and folly of' those who
de
Yet many of those events, to which their future disasters were
owing, such as the depriving the clergy of their lands, and
The honourable and learned gentleman had observed, that
the nobility' of their titles, took place previous to the establish-
if he had said some years ago, that the then constitution of
ment, at least to the credit and authority of the jacobin club.
France would not last so long as our own, he should, by
The honourable and learned gentleman had stated, that the
many, have been treated as a person who spoke in a very
whole of the confusion which had desolated France had arisen
visionary
re, m.n and idle manner. In what company that gentleman
from the jacobin clubs; that the number of them were few,
had been, or from whose sentiments he formed that conjec-
that the original republican club in Paris consisted only
Fox said, he did not know; if the learned gentle-
of seven members, and that they afterwards produced the re-
man had alluded to him, he had never said any thing like it•,
volution of the I oth of August, 1792. Would 'that honour-
TREASON AND SEDITION :SILLS.
TREASON' AND SEDITION DILLS.
[NOV'. 25.
1
7.95•J
43
On the contrary, he had always entertained and professed a
learned gentleman need not warn him upon that subject. He
different doctrine. Would any man assert, that although he
saw that danger clearly; but he was not one of those who
the danger on one side only. The honourable and
had often said, that the first French revolution was a glorious
looked at t
loo I
event, he had asserted, that the systems which had been built
learned gentleman had said, if he joined bad men, he could
upon that revolution were good ? So far from it, the most mo-
not shake off his companions, nor check their excess; a truth
derate of them appeared to him to be unstable at least. That
which history confirmed. Was it not true on the other side
also ? If it was true,, that if he acted with men of bad princi-
was his opinion ; and the right honourable gentleman opposite
to him knew it to be so; in one particular instance, he had em-
ples, the effect of such a junction might be that those who had
served them in a particular cause might have no power to resist
phatically so pronounced it. He meant to allude to a motion
made for a reform of parliament. On that occasion, he had
their fury, was it not, however, undeniably true, that those
stated it as his opinion, and he had not changed it, that an
who joined a particular minister, and assisted bin in his at-
old edifice, well altered and repaired, was more likely to be
tempts to destro y the constitution of the country, would feel
useful, than one built on an entirely new construction, of
the same inability to check the progress of his ambition ?
the structure of which they had no experience*. That was
Was it not as clearly true, it' he had lent his assistance to bring
•
his opinion then, and it was his opinion at the present ; the
about that euthanasia of the constitution, that he must after
honourable and learned gentleman's allusion to opinions, there-
wards yield his life to that accursed power who had effected
fore, if directed to him, was unfairly directed, and the sar-
the destruction of their country ? He believed the time was
not very distant, when those who had lent the minister, what
casm ill applied.
The rest of the honourable and learned gentleman's speech
he would call very honourable assistance, would not deny that
they were become his personal slaves. He believed that some
was what was commonly called pathetic, and he thought it
of them had felt it, and he thought he had seen some symp-
necessary to take some notice of parts of it. He had stated,
that if there was a violent party in this country, who pre-
toms of that fact already. Certain gentlemen smiled at this :
tended to have in view the destruction of the power of minis-
he did not mean to say any thing that could be deemed a per-
ters and the correction of abuses, and they should once succeed,
sonal degradation to them, if they did not feel it for them-
they would not stop there: that not only the minister would
selves. But when he saw, day after day, and year after year,
be the object of their fury, but they would aim at the destruc-
system pursued, which tended to bring this country to that,
tion of others who had any authority in the country from their
euthanasia predicted by Hume, he could not say he was
willing to be an assistant in its accomplishment. With regard
talents, independent of any connection with the government.
If the honourable and learned gentleman did him the honour
to the mischief; which was dreaded from the junction of men
to include him under that class, he would tell him plainly, the
. who only wanted to reform abuses with those who wished
caution to him was needless ; by such an observation the ho-
'the destruction of the constitution, he would apply the
nourable and learned gentleman only brought to his mind what,
remedy proposed by Mr. Burke, in the case of America, who
indeed, had been but seldom absent from it for many years.
had said on that occasion, that he would wish to separate the
by ---not by separating the north from the south, not
66 If ever," said Mr. Fox, " those persons who wish to destroy
the constitution of this country, as was done in the French
by separating the east from the west, not by separating Bos-
revolution, by rapine and plunder, by carnage and desolation,
ton front Philadelphia, -but by separating those who were
should become a triumphant party here, though I may not be
merely discontented with the abuses of the constitution, front
the first, I am well convinced I shall not be the last object of
those who had a hatred for it, and wished its total destruction.
popular fury." If ever the day should come, which God
The honourable and learned gentleman had asked, in what
avert, when men's lives should be subject to that sort of po-
manner they should enter into a negociation with these dis-
conte
pular fury, he thought there were others who would go before
ntedpersons ? He believed there would be some diffi-
him, and those were the authors of the present measures ;
culty knowing with whom to treat. As to the question,
how •
•
we should treat ? his answer was, by conciliation. This
and from that time, in his conscience, he believed, his life
wouldbe done, as Mr. Burke had said, by separating them.
would be short indeed ; and therefore the honourable and
1-loa- •
w ere they to be separated ? By setting about to correct
abuses in earliest, as much as possible, whether in that House,
or in any other part of the government. This would remove
See Vol, v. p. 109.
44
TREASON AND SEDITION BILLS.
[Nov. 25,
TREASON AND SEDITION BILLS.'
795 :-]
45
all ground of jealousy and discontent on the part of' those who
were the fundamental parts of a free government ?
loved the constitution, and who wished only to see the abuses
tkIleenk'siciel7s t'here was a difference of opinion upon that subject.
eradicated ; and this would destroy the alliance between them
His own opinion was, that freedom did not. depend upon the
and those who really harboured a hatred for the constitution
executive government, nor upon the administration of justice,
itself. This was the sort of separation .which Mr. Burke re-
nor upon any one particular or distinct part, nor even upon
commended with regard to the Americans; and this was the
forms so much as it did on the general freedom of speech and
separation which he would recommend, of the discontented
of writing. With regard to freedom of speech, the bill before
in the country, at this time. Strike out the bad part of our
the House was a direct attack upon that freedom. No man
present system, add to the beautiful parts, if that be possible;
dreaded the use of a universal proposition more than he did
but, at all events, strike out the bad ones; and then, although
himself; he must nevertheless say, that speech ought to be
they should not reconcile to their system, those who hated
completely free, without any restraint whatever, in any•go-
the constitution itself, they would deprive them of their force,
vernment pretending to be free. By being completely free,
by taking away the arguments by which they prevailed on
he did not mean that a person should not be liable to punish-
good men to join them, and by which alone they could ever
ment for abusing that freedom, but he meant freedom in the
become formidable; namely, that of stating the ablies of our
first instance. The press was so at present, end he rejoiced it
constitution as they subsisted in practice at present. What
•
was so; what he meant was, that any man might write and print
were the arguments that these men made use of to gain to
what he pleased, although he was liable to be punished, if he
their party those who loved the constitution, and which had
abused that freedom ; this he called perfect freedom in the
been said by the honourable and learned gentleman to be so
first instance. If this was necessary with regard to the press,
seducing? Topics of abuses in the constitution ! Reform
it was still more so with regard to speech. An imprimatur
those abuses, and. they took these seducing arguments away.
had been talked of, and it would be dreadful enough; but a
It was, indeed, the whole of their argument ; for as to their
dicatur would be still more horrible. No man had been dar-
theory of government, that he was sure would not make any
ing enough to say, that the press should not be free : but the
deep impression on the body of the people, who had too much
bill before them did not, indeed, punish a man for speaking,
good sense to be misled by such egregious fallacies.
it prevented him from speaking. For his own part, he had
The honourable and learned gentleman, in one part of his
never heard of any danger arising to a free state from the free-
speech, and only in one, seemed to have a reference to the
dom of the press, or freedom of speech; so far from it, he was
bill before the House. The honourable and learned gentle-
perfectly clear that a free state could not exist without both.
man admitted that the House was going to make a sacrifice
The honourable and learned gentleman had said, would they
by the measure before them ; but had contended that what
not preserve the remainder by giving up this liberty ? He ad-
was retained of the rights of the people was still of higher
mitted, that, by passing of the bill, the people would have_
value; the history of governments was certainly better than
lost a great deal. A great deal ! (said Mr. Fox,) Aye, all
theory ; in this, therefore, he agreed with the honourable and
that is worth preserving. For you will have lost the spirit,
learned gentleman. IIe did not, however, agree with him,
the fire, the freedom, the boldness, the energy of the British
that what they were to retain was superior to what they had
character, and with them its best virtue. I say, it is not the
to lose, if the bill were passed into a law. That which was
written law of the constitution of England, it is not the law
to be taken away was the foundation of the building. It might,
that is to be found in books, that has constituted the true
indeed, be said, that there were beautiful parts of the building
p rinciple of freedom in any country, at any time. No ! it is
still left. The same might be said of another building that
the energy, the boldness of' a man's mind, which prompts him
was undermined : " Here is a beautiful saloon, there is a fine
to speak, not in private, but in large and popular assemblies,
drawing-room; here are elegant paintings, there elegant and
that constitutes, that creates, in a state, the spirit of freedom:
superb furniture ; here an extensive and well chosen library."
This is the principle which gives life to liberty ; without it the
But if the foundation was undermined, there could be nothing
human character is a stranger to freedom.
to rest upon, and the whole edifice must soon fall to the
• If you suffer the
liberty of speech to be wrested from you, you will then have
ground. Such would be the case with our constitution, if the
lost the freedom, the energy, the boldness of the British clia-;
bill should pass into a law. Our government was valuable,
meter. It has been said, that the right honourable gentle-
because it was free. e What, he begged gentlemen to ask
man rose to his present eminence by the influence of popular
TREASON AND SEDITION BILLS.
[NOY. 2,5.;
1795'1 TREASON AND SEDITION BILLS.
46
47
favour, and that he is now kicking away the ladder by which
soon wither, decay, and perish : so take away the freedom of
he mounted to power. 'Whether such was the mode by which
speech or of writing, and the foundation of all your freedom
the right honourable gentleman attained his present situation
is gone. You will then fall, and be degraded and despised
I am a little inclined to question ; but I can have no doubt
by all the world for your weakness and your folly, in not
that if this bill shall pass, England herself will have thrown
taking care of that which conducted you to all your fame,
away thatladder, by which she has risen to wealth, (but that
your greatness, your opulence, and prosperity. But before
is the last consideration,) to honour, to happiness, and to fame.
this happens, let the people once more be tried. I am a friend
Along with energy of thinking and liberty of speech, she will
to taking the sense of the people, and therefore a friend to this
forfeit the comforts of her situation, and the dignity of her
motion. I wish for every delay that is possible in this im-
character, those blessings which they have secured to her at
portant and alarming business. I wish for this adjournment
home, and the rank by which she has been distinguished
" Spatium rcquieinque furori." Let us put a stop to the
among the nations. These were the sources of her splendour,
madness of this bill ; for if you pass it, you will take away the
and the foundation of her greatness
foundation of the liberty of the people of England, and then
farewel to any happiness in this country I
Sic fortis Etruria crevit,
ir
Scilicit et rerum facta est pulcherrima Roma.
The House divided on the question of adjournment :
We need only appeal to the example of that great city,
Tellers.
Tellers.
yzA8
whose prosperity the poet has thus recorded. In Rome, when
S Mr. Curwen
Mr. Steele
WhitbreadS
the liberty of speech was gone, along with it vanished all that
70' — N° ES Mr. Wallace 2 657"
had constituted her the mistress of the world. I doubt not but
in the days of Augustus there were persons who perceived no
November 27.
symptoms of decay, who exulted even in their fancied prospe-
On the order of the day for going into a committee on the
rity, when they contemplated the increasing opulence and
sedition bill, Mr. Fox rose merely to ask when it was probable
splendid edifices of that grand metropolis, and who even
that the report, and the third reading of the bill, would come on.
deemed that they possessed their ancient liberty, because
He said, he supposed when the bill had gone through the coin-
they still retained those titles of offices which had existed
mince, that it would he reported, and then ordered to be printed.
under the republic. 'What fine panegyrics were then pro.
Mr. Pitt said, that immediately after the bill had gone through the
flounced on the prosperity of the empire !--- " Turn tutus bos
connnittee, he should move for it to be printed, and that the further
consideration would probably come on about Tuesday, Dacem-i
prata perambulat." This was flattery to Augustus: to that
her I., and the third reading on the Thursday following. Mr. Fox,
great destroyer of the liberties of mankind, as much an enemy
Mr. Grey, Mr. Lambton, Mr. Whitbread, General Tarleton, Ge-
to freedom, as any of the detestable tyrants who succeeded
neral Macleod, and the other opposers of the bill ( Mr. Sheridan
him. So with us, we are to be flattered with an account
excepted) immediately rose and left the House. Mr. Sheridan
of the form of our government, by King, Lords and Com-
said, he did not attend for the purpose of proposing any- amend-
mons— Eadem magistratuum vocabula. There were sonic
inents to the bill, being persuaded that no alteration, except that
of n
then, as there arc now, who said that the energy of Rome was
egativing every clause in it, would be of service, or render it
p
not gone; while they felt their vanity gratified in viewing
alatable to the great majority of the public. He attended chiefly
their city, which had been converted from brick into marble,
to watch some things which were going forward, and to hear what
am endments would be proposed.
they did not reflect that they had lost that spirit of manly
independance which animated the Romans of better times,
and that the beauty and splendour of their city served only to
November 3c.
conceal the symptoms of rottenness and decay. So if this bill
On the motion for going into a committee on the treason bill,
passes you may for a time retain your institution of juries
'Mr. Erskine opposed the Speaker's leaving the chair. He observed,
and the forms of your free constitution, but the substance is
that the bill diminished the liberty of the subject, without adding
gone, the foundation is undermined; —your fall is certain
to the safety
safety of the king's person. It was a political maxim, he
said
and your destruction inevitable. As a tree that is injured at
long standing, that the best government was that which
pr
the root and the bark taken off, the branches may live for
oduced the greatest security with the fewest restraints, and
a while, some sort of blossom may stal remain; but it will
the worst, that which increased penalties without undisputed evi-
TREASON AND SEDITION BILLS.
[NOV. 30.
48
1795.]
TREASON AND SEDITION BILLS.
49
deuce of their propriety. Another maxim, of equal force, was to
that, from the manner in which the honourable and learned
preserve ancient laws in their primitive simplicity, till experience
had proved them inadequate to their intended purposes. The sta-
gentlema n had taken up the subject, it did not give him the
tute Of Edward III. concerning treason, had not been proved, but
most favourable opinion of the manner in which this business
merely asserted, to be unequal to the punishment of the outrages
was intended to be conducted by •its advocates; by the spe-
referred to in the two bills. In the opinion of one of the greatest
cimen he had witnessed, he was not led to expect any great
luminaries of the law in this country, the lord chief-justice Hale,
n
CEtaltT
iudiio.leet1)
that important statute had been enacted, as a remedy against
the then before the House undoubtedly was, the
former oppression, and to secure the subject against illegal pro-
of the present bill; he hoped, however, he was not
secution. To compass, or even to imagine, the death of the king,
mistaken when he expected that parliament would consider
was, by that statute, declared high treason : could words be found
that the preamble of a bill and its enactments were two sepa-
of stronger import, or of plainer meaning? To levy ivar against
the king, or to grant comfort and protection to his enemies was,
rate and distinct things. If that were true with respect to a
by that statute, made equally criminal ; but it did not make the
bill that originated in that House, did it not more emphati-
compassing to levy war against him high treason, because the le-
cally apply to a bill that originated in the other House of
oislators of that- day did not consider a conspiracy to levy such a
r,
parliament? And if the bill then under consideration not only
war as more than a misdemeanor, which, like many others, might
came from another House of parliament, but came also from
not deserve material notice, while no clear and overt act could
persons who were suspected of not being attached to the
be adduced to prove it, and without which act no treasonable in-
best principles of our constitution, upon that view only, if
tentions could lawfully be presumed. Mr. Erskine argued, from
there had been no other, he was desirous that the bill should
the decision of lord-chief-justice Holt, that overt acts alone,
properly established, ought to be admitted as proofs of guilt in
be rejected; because he could not help thinking that the House
trials for high treason. The bill in contemplation would, he ex-
would do well to consider the state of the country, to watch
plicitly affirmed, extend the crime of high treason to such a
with anxious care and constitutional jealousy, every thing that
multitude of trivial cases, that every petty misdemeanor might be
tended to abridge the rights of the subject, and then consider
brought within its construction.— Mr. Erskine was replied to by
the state of public affairs, and adopt some measure-for its
the attorney-general, after which,
safety, if, upon mature deliberation, some measure should be
found to be necessary.
Mr. Fox said, it did not appear to him from what he had
To him, Mr. Fox said, there had appeared to be one way
heard, that there was any thing very auspicious to the free-
of considering a bill which could not fairly be objected to;
dom of the people of this country to be expected from the
that was to attend to the preamble of it. He had flattered
progress of the bill before the House. The honourable and
himself that he knew something of the bill from some recol-
learned gentleman had begun his speech with finding ?<lull
lection of its contents : however, the speech of the honourable
with his learned friend (Mr. Erskine) for having blended the
and learned gentleman had staggered him ; certainly the
two bills in argument on the present occasion. 'Though his
speech he had heard bore no resemblance to the ideas he had
honourable and learned friend had spoken at considerable
entertained of the bill. From one part of that speech a
length, and with an effect which he trusted would not easily
person who was a perfect stranger to the bill, would have
be forgotten, and though the two bills, in their component
thought the bill was a declaratory law on the crime of trea-
parts, might be traced to the same principle, and considered
son, and on the meaning of the statutes which defined it.
as the result of a connected attempt on the liberties of the
II
He would have expected to have heard read as an int •oduc-
country, he called upon the house to recollect that his ho-
tion to the bill, words to this effect: " Whereas. doubts have
nourable and learned friend had spoken most distinctly to
arisen respecting the law as it now stands with regard to the
the bill then before the House, and also on the system which
crime of treason; be it declared, &c." Instead of this, he ,
ministers had lately adopted for the purpose of subverting the
only found that reference was had to, and loose, very loose,
liberties of the people of England. in this his honourable
comments made on what had recently happened, and on facts
and learned friend was perfectly right, because the charge lit
nvhich had lately been brought forward in a court of justice.
made was just. He spoke of one in consequence of the con-
The honourable and learned gentleman had done no more
nection which it evidently had with the other; they were
than this, and then appeared to insinuate, to render the bill
both branches of the sonic system, which ministers had adopted
a little less disgusting, that it was intended to be only tem-
against the liberties of the people; and he must say again,.
poiaz...
would ask, if the bill was to be temporary,
V.
VOL..
3'0
TREASON AND SEDITION
[Nov. 30.,
17951
TREASON AND SEDITION BILLS.
where was the propriety in making it of' a declaratory nature?
by overt-act, prove that he compassed or imagined the natural
A declaration must be either true or false: truth was eternal
death of the king, should be guilty of high treason. Why?
if, therefore, the bill depended upon the truth of its declara-
Not because the natural life of the king could be more con-
tion, it should not be a bill passed for a temporary purpose,
stitutionally important than the political power of the kingly
_
but ought to be made a permanent law. This, however, was
office, but, as his honourable and learned friend (Mr. Erskine)
not the case with respect to the present bill; it was made
had well observed, because the death of the king could be
use of as an argument for the moment, to take it in that
accomplished by one man who was wicked enough to de-
light by way of justification of its enactments; but the bill
termine on it; and this he could do in an instant with a
itself was only an experiment to try how the people would.
pistol or a dagger, or in any other way; and therefore the
bear it. If any part of the learned gentlemen's speech was
legislature had done wisely to declare, that lie who should
attempted to be opposed to the reasoning of his honourable
compass or imagine the death of the king should be guilty
and learned friend, by way of answer or refutation, it was
of high treason. To such an act there ought to be the highest
that which related to the construction that had been put from
possible penalty annexed.
time to time by judges on the statute of the 25th of Edward III.
Mr. Fox said, he was read y to admit that the king's person
Was the bill a measure to set that question at rest, as the
was not so well guarded as he could wish, but It was as
honourable and learned gentleman had stated it ? Was such
strongly guarded as it was possible to guard it by law.
a declaration necessary? If the honourable and learned gen-
Guards of another description, indeed, he might have, but.
tleman thought so, would it not be necessary to bring in a
nothing of that sort was proposed by the present bill; and
bill to make that declaration explicit? Upon the necessity of
he trusted they never would be proposed by any parliament,
making that declaration he might agree with the honourable
because it would be highly unconstitutional. With regard
and learned gentleman. " Tiiat the declaration of the ho-
to the political power of the king, he must observe, that
nourable and learned gentleman and mine upon that law
although, constitutionally speaking, that was a still dearer
would be different, I have, said Mr. Fox, as little doubt as
and more precious object to them, yet there was no necessity
that we differ upon this; but the bill surely cannot be con-
of guarding it in the same manner ; because, the destruction
sidered in the light of a declaration, because it is temporary,
of the political power of the king could not be effectually
and says nothing upon treason as to the levying of war.'
attacked by one man, nor could it be accomplished, like the
With regard to the act of Edward he must make a dis-
other, in one moment. Levying war for the destruction of
tinction between an attack upon the natural life and political
government could not be the act of a single man, it must
power of the king. He could easily conceive that any per-
be the act of multitudes; it must, indeed, be a sequence of
son, who should be guilty of an attack on the natural life of
acts, upon which a government might wait with safety until
the king, that was to say, who had, by overt-act, proved that
something was done, instead of' declaring that the com-
be compassed or imagined his death, should be subject to the
passing or imagining constituted the guilt, as the law declared
highest penalty of the law ; and yet that an attempt at the
in the other case. The difference was, in the one case the
destruction of the political power of the king should only be
king might be assassinated by a single individual in a moment,
deemed guilty of a misdemeanor. He knew it was a popular
whereas the constitution could not be assassinated but by a
argument; he had conversed with many who urged it, and
series of acts committed by a multitude of persons; that was
said, " Why, is it not absurd to say you will guard the
the reason why our ancestors had made an attack upon the
natural life of the king, which, in a constitutional point of
lire of the king, a different offence from that of an attempt to
view, cannot be more important than the political power of
subvert the monarchy. The distinction had been well marked
the king, more than you will guard that political power:"
by a• common expression — " the constitution may be de-
In his opinion, that argument was wholly fallacious; because
stroyed, but it cannot be assassinated."
the laws of a state were not to be governed by the ideas of
Mr. Fox having thus observed on the wisdom of our an-
guilt, and in proportion to our feelings as to the mischief
cestors with respect to the statute of Edward
wished to
which might possibly ensue, but in proportion to the difficulty
Say a few words with regard to the construction which had
or facility with which the object might be attacked. It was
been put upon it. He might be asked, whether he ap-
in this last view that the wisdom of our ancestors had framed
roved
p of the construction which had been put by the judges
the law of Edward III. They had said, that he who should,
upon that statute ? He admitted the inferiority of his
52
TREASON AND' SEDITION BILLS.
[NOV. 3ct;
TREASON AND SEDITION BILLS.
1795']
53
merit to that of those learned persons; he must, however, •
might be with respect to the imagining the death of the king,
form it from the best lights he was able, and having done so,
the crime would be complete.
he had no difficulty in saying, that he (lid not agree with
He would ask the honourable and learned gentleman one
them according to the statement of the honourable and learned 10
question. Suppose A. and B. had conspired to levy war
gentleman that night. If he were asked, whether he thought
wraihst the king, and with hostile arms proceeded to depose
the judicial determination of the judges from time to time
t
tile king, and that the jury on the trial should find the con-
made part of the law of the land ? he would answer, he was 'W
spiracy and the appearing in hostile arms, but should find
not competent to determine that question. This he would
that there was no intention of putting the king to death,
nevertheless say, that an act of parliament was a part of the
would the honourable mid learned gentleman then say, that
law of the land, as interesting as the judicial determination
judgment should follow against the defendants for high treason
of the judges, and often more intelligible to the mass of
as a consequence of law from that verdict ? If the honour-
mankind; and it was and ought to be, of higher authority.
able and learned gentleman would boldly say this, then he
If, therefore, there was a doubt as to the real meaning of the,
3
would allow that his construction of the law of treason was
act of Edward III. he had no objection to a parliamentary
a bad, and the learned gentleman's a good construction. In-
declaration of the law in that respect; what that declaration
deed, he believed the learned gentleman would not maintain
should be, he would be ready to argue hereafter. For the
that doctrine ; and he -believed too, that the very essence of
sake of the argument, he would allow, that all the judgments
the. crime of high treason, was that of compassing and
which had been given by the judges were correct ; and then
imagining the death of the king; and that if the jury did not
he would maintain, that gentlemen on the other side had not
find the compassing and imagining the death, the verdict
proved, that this bill was not a material alteration of the law
would be null and void. Such, he maintained, was the law
of the land; but that he would not enter into at that moment,
at present ; but if the bill passed, that would not be the law;
but merely observe, that his honourable and learned friend's
then the law would be, that the bare finding of such verdict
arguments upon that, as well as other points, had not at all
'as he had stated, would be sufficient to convict any person of
been answered. Whether the point was to be given up, he
high treason ; and he would maintain, that it was extremely
did not know ; but as it stood at present, it made conspiracy
material to attend to that distinction. The subject ought to
to levy war a substantive treason. [The Attorney General
be protected in his rights upon all occasions ; the House
explained, that it only put under this description a conspiracy
should, therefore, be extremely cautious in agreeing to any
to levy a direct war, and not to levy an indirect war.] Then,
thing that encroached upon them ; but, above all, in cases
continued Mr. Fox, the point is gained; if, in some instances,
of high treason ; they should not forget that, as the crime of
it made a conspiracy to levy war a substantive treason, and
high treason was a crime to which the highest penalty was
in others not, it was evident that a material innovation had
attached, it was also a crime in which the power of the ma-
been made. 'With respect to the construction of the law of
gistrate ought to be looked at with the highest degree of
Edward III. he had always thought, from what he had read
jealousy. In all other charges made by the crown against its
from Hale, from Foster, and other authorities, and he had
subjects, the chief magistrate had no distinct interest in the
read their works with attention, that the point was clear,.
conviction ; but in the charge of high treason, he was to be
particularly the case of a special verdict. He conceived that
swayed by considerations of a personal nature, and thence
-when there were charges of levying direct war, stated as high
hadsprung all the regulations of giving to the accused a list
treason, for deposing the king, they were always stated in.
of the jurors and the witnesses, and all the various other
that way, that they were overt acts, to prove the intention of
checks which the wisdom of our ancestors had provided.
compassing and imagining the death of the king ; and, upon
These were not jealousies of his own, stated for the purpose
that, the question came to this : whether such acts proved
of supporting the debate, they were jealousies of the law of
the compassing or imagining? If that levying of war be of
the land, jealousies which had been shewn in a variety of
i
itself treason without the compassing or imagining, then a
nstances, constitutional jealousies, that ought to be con-
verdict that the defendant did so conspire and levy war, with-
sidered attentively by that House. They ought still further
out saying one word of the compassing or imagining, would
to be careful how they proceeded in a measure that abridged
be a complete verdict, and whatever the opinion of the jury
the functions
ctlsio,on4si( mke
olfaajury; independent of other considerations,
rite
a formidable invasion of the law : the
-
E 3
54
TREASON AND SEDITION BILL&
[Nov. 300
TREASON AND SEDITION BILLS.
5
7 9 5-3
j ury would not hereafter have to consider the mind of the
Sydney and Russell were not, indeed, tried by the statute
person accused ; they would have nothing to try but the fact
which he had alluded to, the time being expired within which
stated in the indictment; the rest would be mere inference
that law allowed them to be accused, but those eminent men
of law; and although the jury should negative the intention
perished on the scaffold for high treason. He said this to
of putting the king to death, yet judgment must pass upon
shew the general spirit of jurisprudence that governed this
the defendant.
country at that period, and disgraced that reign. Those,
Mr. Fox slightly adverted to the history of the two acts,
therefore, who admired that reign, were not to look to its
the statute of Edward III. and that of Charles IL which
ministers cr its judges, but to those who expired on the scaf-
were referred to by gentlemen of the other side as the pm-
fold for high treason. The law which then was enforced, was
cedents that made the foundation of the present measure.
such as the law under consideration was proposed to be; it
The statute of Edward III. was the old constitutional law of
expired, however, with the prince for whom it was brought
treason. Its introduction had freed the jurisprudence of the
forward. Richard II. was also a prince for whom such a law -
country from much uncertainty ; and it had, in no instance,,
was enacted, and soon after he was deposed and assassinated.
been deviated from in later times without producing con-
Charles II. had a long, and, as some said, a flourishing reitm;
siderable mischief. The other act was brought in at the period
but it was not flourishing in the mind of any man who really
of the Restoration, when the people were wearied of the
knew what a flourishing reign was. Was there any one who
evils they had suffered under the former usurpation, and were
looked to the history of those times, to the unprincipled
willing to throw all their liberties into the hands of the clown.
policy of the court, and the o p en profligacy of public mea-
Let the House look at the statutes, and recollect the prevail-
sures, who did not consider it as a blemish on the English
ing spirit of that day. They would find that parliament,
character, and a reproach to the spirit of our ancestors, that
‘vhich the present was about to imitate, giving to the king a
'the reign of that monarch was suffered to be protracted till
power to raise a military of his own, and money to pay then),
the period of his natural life? Were those auspicious times,
which was to be applied afterwards without the consent of
from which to derive a precedent for their present conduct ?
parliament. They gave to the king the power which they
Two reasons had been adduced in favour of the present
ought to have kept in their own hands; a scandalous negli-
bill. The first he should dispose of very shortly. It was
e,ence and for which the people suffered most deplorably !
b
5
said to be a declaration of the meaning of the statute of
That reign was a dreadful one to the people; infamous and
Edward III. A declaratory act it could not be, because a
detestable as that reign had been, if there was any one part of
declaratory act must be plain and simple; and, indeed, that
it that called for the execration of the historian more than
part of the case had not been seriously insisted upon by
the rest, it was the public prosecutions that had been in-
the honourable and learned gentleman. The other reason
stituted in the course of it. Englishmen had, indeed, the
was, the general prevalence of libels; and in proof of this,
happiness to feel that justice had been administered in this
much had been said about the disposition of some people to
country for a century past, in a manner more mild, more pure,
treat all authority with contempt. It was true that a stone
and more independent, than perhaps in any other country
had been thrown at his majesty; but whoever attended to
-upon earth for the same period; they ought nevertheless to
speeches upon that subject, would find how small a part of
take care not to copy the sort of laws that were enacted in
the people were concerned in that outrage, or tinctured with
those abominable times of blind submission. They were about
the disposition he had just maintained. The act, every body
to adopt laws similar to those passed in one period of our
knew, was an odious and a detestable one; but ought the whole
history. e And what period ? the period of the reign of
people of
oafctE?ngland to be deprived of their rights on account
Charles II., that period which of all our history was most
of that
abominable and scandalous in the administration of its justice;
The honourable and learned gentleman, Mr. Fox observed,
the most scandalous, perhaps, in the world, under all the
had adverted to what passed at the Old Bailey last year. If
circumstances of it.
the temper of some of the people had been seen to be so
With regard to that reign, one of its most 'remarkable
d angerous at that time, it was extraordinary that the mea-
features was, that the names of those who perished on the
sures then proposed had not been proposed sooner. The
scaffold for high treason, were among those that were most
truth was, ministers had not an opportunity to suit their
dear to the recollection of Englishmen. He 'knew that
Views till just at present. They took the advantage of the
E 4
56
TREASON AND SEDITION BILLS.
[Nov. 3c.
795
TREASON AND SEDITION BILLS.
.7
57
•
generous indignation of the people at the atrocious outrage
meanonr, to the penalty of felony, although it should not be
offered to his majesty, and, under pretence of providing
stated in the indictment to be a felony. He wished to know,
against a similar outrage, were going to deprive the people
whether the provision in the late would be allowed
of their rights. They turned the best passions of the people
to apply to the new law, or whether the bill was not to renew
of England into a delusion, in order to deprive them of their
il yu(surpation of judges upon the old law, and deprive the
dearest s interests. He was justified in saying this; else why
ti!
of the privilege of examining into the intention of the
had not the bill been brought forward sooner ? Be could
accused, and front that intention to find their verdict; or,
say much more upon this topic, but that he deemed it unne-
were they to be left to find the dry matter of fact, and was all
cessary, after the very able and eloquent mariner in which it
the rest to be in the hands of the court, to be disposed of as
had been treated by his honourable and learned friend,
mere matter of law? The most material part of the case in
(M•. Erskine). •it'h respect to the state trials, the learned
this view was that which subjected a man for the second mis-
gentleman. contended that they had proved much, and that
demeanour to transportation. How the honourable and
notwithstanding the persons indicted had been acquitted, the
learned gentleman would answer this he could not tell, but lie
trials were calculated to produce a considerable effect on the
was sure it was not in the power of human skill and ability
public mind. So they certainly had, but not the sort of
to answer it satisfactorily. His learned friend (Mr. Erskine)
.effect the learned gentleman would insinuate. In that ac-
had observed., that this description of offence was so wide
quittal he, for one, had already declared, that he much exulted,
and general, that by applying a sentence of equal severity
and he should ever continue to exult. That acquittal, in his
whenever an offence was repeated, the same punishment
view of the subject, tended to produce an impression of the
might be made to include the most venial errors, and the
happiest kind. If there were men to whom the constitution
blackest crimes. It was a great principle of justice, that the
had begun to appear odious, that acquittal must have softened
punishment should be proportionate to the offence; but by
their animosit y, and disposed them to regard it with a friendly
the regulation proposed, this principle would be entirely de..
eye; if there were others wavering in their sentiments, it
feated. Would the honourable and learned gentleman say,
must have had the effect to revive their attachment, and
that by the analogy of law a comparative distinction could be
confirm them in the line of their duty, more than all the
made between the second misdemeanour and the first ? Was
penal laws that the legislature could enact in a century. Even
it not essential, that the distinction should be kept up between
if those persons who had been tried entertained opinions
a misdemeanour and a felony ? And was it not essential that
hostile to the constitution — and he did not deny that in the
there should be a proportion between the punishment for one
societies there were some men of that description — still he
and another misdemeanour? There were some misdemeanours
considered it as a glorious event for the constitution itself, that
of so slight a nature, that though a thousand times repeated,
those persons had been acquitted. Nay more, if even men,
they would not, in point of enormity, be equal to one of a
whose .sentiments were hostile to the constitution, had found
more serious description. Under the head of misdemeanours
refuge from that strict and impartial justice which it adminis-
was defined, whatever might tend to excite hatred and con-
tered to all, such an event he could not but consider as cal-
tempt against the constitution. He, who complained of the
culated to convert disaffection and enmity into admiration and
inequality of the representation, and, in illustration of his
applause. This he believed to be the real effect of these trials,
argument in support of a reform in parliament, referred to a
although the learned gentleman made use of them in his
borough so and so situated, might, from the operation of this
argument, in order to sp ew a spirit of disaffection to the con-
bill, be sent to Botany Bay for seven years !
Stitutionin a considerable part of the people.
I wish (said Mr. Fox) you had made it death ; the pu-
'with regard to the other part of the bill now before the
nishment would not have been more severe ; and your law
House, that which regarded the penalty of misdemeanour, it
Would be better understood by it. Compare this with the
called for. animadversions,- as it referred to an offence more
most atrocious misdemeanour in cases that are not political.
likely to occur often than the offence of high treason. The
Suppose a man be convicted of an assault, with intent to kill
learned gentleman had urged, „ that it did not, in the first in-
his own father, and repeats it as often as imagination can
stance, create new misdemeanour ; be did not know that it did ;
Suggest, still he will be punished as for a misdemeanour only,
this, however,. he .knew, that it defined that which, by the
which is fine and imprisonment : but if he be guilty twice of
law as it stood, was subject only to the penalty of misde-
insisting on the propriety of a_ reform in parliament, he may
TREASON AND SEDITION BILLS.
[Nov. 30:
TREASON AND SEDITION BILLS.
58
1795.]
59
be punished with transportation to Botany Bay ! I have
which was proposed by the bill ? He warned them against
stated this case in the extreme, to s p ew the enormous dispro-
of multiplying new codes of penal laws, and of
the policy
portion which this bill creates in the punishment of offences.
oppressive restrictions beyond what the temper
It was in the nature of the thing, he said, that misdemeanour
oletluienl people
il could bear ? But in answer to all this, they had
should be punished by a discretionary sentence, and that it
been told, that the corresponding and other societies did such
should stand distinct from felony ; a thousand misdemeanours ,
end such things ; and he was applied to on a former night,
could not, by the spirit and genius of the law of England,
b y an honourable gentleman, who said, that he avoided
amount to, or be punished as, a felony. That was to con-
stating his opinion upon those societies. He did not avoid
found all the principles of our law. The sort of punishment
stating his opinion. That honourable gentleman had asked
which the bill enacted for misdemeanours was for the first time
him, what those societies meant ? To that question he had
introduced into the country from the pretended law of Scot-
answered, that he could not decisively say, because he be-
land ; though such was the horror with which Englishmen
lieved there were some in that society who meant one thing
regarded it, that when, some time since, it had been presented
and some another. He had distinctly said, that there might be
b
•
5
to their minds, it excited an universal sentiment of indigna-
a few persons in those societies hostile to the constitution, but
tion. He called it 64 pretended law ;" for he would never so
the greater number he believed to be sincere in the object
far degrade Scotland, as to suppose it could really be the law
which they professed — a parliamentary reform. That there
of that country. Had any want of effect, he asked, been
might be others who had different views he did not deny;
experienced from punishments formerly inflicted, because they
but he could not separate the whole from a part ; and there-
were not sufficiently severe ? He adverted to the case of
fore in the mass lie gave them, as he thought he ought, credit
Messrs. Muir and Palmer, men of enlightened minds, of re-
for the sincerity of their professions. Such he should always
spectable rank in society, of irreproachable morals, who, be-
give to large bodies of people. There had been long established
cause they expressed themselves warmly with respect to what
in this town a society against what were called republicans
they considered to be grievances, were sent to Botany Bay,
and levellers. What was his opinion of that society ? The
to associate, not merely with the lowest of men in point of
same as his opinion was of the corresponding society ; that
rank, but with a description of persons so degraded and
they were in a mass sincere in what they professed ; that they
abandoned, that the necessity of associating with them under
were in favour of the constitution. Did he believe that one
any circumstances, was a deep disgrace, and must itself consti-
of them wanted to overturn the monarchy of this country, and
tute a considerable punishment. What effect did ministers
the other to make it absolute ? No such thing; he gave them
pretend to say that had produced ? Had it produced a greater-
each credit for being sincere in preserving the constitution ;
reverence for the laws, or occasioned a cessation of those libels
the one dreading one event, the ether dreading the oppo-
which were the subject of complaint? No ; for they were told
site event. He knew none of the kaders of the corresponding
that libels had increased since that period a thousand fold. If,
society ; he however knew the leading member of the society
on the other hand, it had produced those effects, what neces-
against republicans and levellers ; be know lqr. Reeves. Ile
sity was there to resort to new measures ? If it had failed,
knew lie had published libels after libels, attacking the con-
did not experience demonstrate the futility of again having
stitution ; that he had, year after year, circulated such publi-
recourse to a similar policy? But it was said, that in Scotland,
cations ; that he had circulated a pamphlet, a direct libel on
where those measures had been adopted, no discontent existed.
that House, in which it was said that rotten boroughs, ex-
tr
He believed the case was quite the reverse, and that the dis-
avagant courts, selfish ministers, and corrupt majorities were
e
content really felt in that quarter was not the less because the
ssential to the well-being of the constitution of the country,
expressions of it had been subdued by the terror of severe and
conclusionto be drawn . from such abominable doctrine,
unwarrantable punishments. If the state of Scotland was, as
he did not ascribe
oe to every man in that society; the greater
Dum
they pretended, they ought not at least to think of extending
ber
believed to have united, in order to guard the
con
the penalties of the bill to that country. The best way to
stitution against a danger, which they supposed to be
p
attach the people to the constitution, would be to preserve the
ressing and imminent. The few
w who took advantage
of their
fears
age
mildness of its laws. Could the honourable and learned gen-
f01 • t le constitution, in order to forward their own de-
s
tleman, or any of his friends, learned in the history of this
igns for its destruction; of those he judged from their actions.
I
country, point out an instance of such a punishment as that
le knew that, with respect to those societies, there were
Go
TREASON AND SEDITION SILLS.
[Nov. 3,1,
TREASON AND SEDITION BILLS.
6r
1795.3
violent opinions on both sides ; but he saw Mr. Reeves's SA*
the progress of the evil, to send whole fleets of libellers to
ciety with as much industry, and with more means, because.
Botany Bay. The honourable and learned gentleman had
with more money, circulating such doctrines as were contained
spoken of libels against the king and other persons. His
in the sentence he had just quoted ; he saw circulated by the
opinion was, that libelling the king and individuals had not
same authority a book called " John Bull to Thomas Bull," ,
been sufficiently punished. He would prosecute with the
and he saw such doctrines accompanied with incendiary hand-
u tmost severity, all libels on the characters of persons, with
bills against the protestant dissenters, and fraught every
whatever party they were connected. The most exemplary
species of gross and inflammatory misrepresentation. He
rigour of that sort he would connect with equal temperance
saw, on the other hand, libels ascribed to the corresponding
in respect to libels of another description. He would punish
society, so monstrous, that he could only compare them with
whatever reflected on the dignity of the chief magistrate, or
the ()Oilers to which he had referred ; with this difference, that
the fair fame of individuals; but all political libels he would
when it was proposed to enquire into their authenticity, the
leave to themselves ; discussions on government, so far as
proof was denied. He would say, therefore, that those who
they did not interfere with private character, he would per-
professed that they had no other aim but a reform of parlia-
mit to pass entirely unrestrained; that was the way to make
ment were in earnest in the mass, as he said of the society
the press respected and useful; and lie was convinced, that
against republicans and levellers, and he saw no ground for a
if this policy had been adopted sooner, things would not have
parliamentary provision against the mass of either society,
been in the situation in which they were at present ; but such
although individuals among the , members of each of them
was not the object of the bill; the chief point which its pro-
might deserve censure,
moter had in view was to terrify the people from making free
His two principal objections to the bill, Mr. Fox repeated
with him under the name of government. Mr. Fox concluded
-it, were, that it narrowed the power of the jury in cases of
with declaring himself against the principle of the present bill.
treason, and that it provided for misdemeanours a new pu-
He should therefore vote against the Speaker leaving the
nishment, which would apply with undistinguished severity to
chair. If another bill should be brought in less exceptionable
the greatest and least degrees of delinquency. The honour-
in its clauses, and better calculated to answer the purpose ill
. able and learned gentleman had stated the increased and in-
view, he should have no objection to give it his support.
creasing number of libels as a justification of the present bill;
some of these libels, he understood, had been punished pretty
The House divided on the question, That the Speaker do leave
severely; and the publishers, who might have been in their
the chair,
beds at the time the books were sold, and who at any rate
Tellers.
Tellers.
yEAS
had only been in the exercise of their business, without being
Mr.John Smyth"), ,
"v
,i•
s
Mr. Whitbread
20.3 .---Noes
t Mr. Anstruther J
v
aware that they were committing a breach Of the law, had
i etr. Jekyll
S `P°
been confined for two or three years. Some had been con-
victed on the oaths of witnesses notoriously perjured. One
man had been convicted and punished at Manchester, on the
December 3.
oath of a person named Dunn, who was afterwards proved to
be guilty of perjury, and another upon the same evidence
A debate took place on the third reading of the seditious
meetings bill. The bill was supported by Mr. Hardinge, Mr. N.
at Lancaster.
kontaele Mr. Powys, Mr. Abbot, and Mr. Dundas ; and opposed
It had been said by the honourable and learned gentleman
by Mr. Sheridan, Mr. William Smith, and Mr. Grey. Mr. Abbot
that libels were so numerous that they could no longer be pro-
Concluded his speech with these words : " It must ever live in our
secuted. Was he satisfied that the severity of the bill would
memoq, for the words sunk dee p into our minds, that the right ho-
infallibly diminish their numbers, or that he should be able
nourable gentleman, whose words are still unexplained, (Mr. Pox, )
more safely to apply the new law than the old ? If there was
did openf3', declare, that if these laws should be ratified by the
r
a spirit of discontent so widely diffused in the country, and
oyal sceptre, and the people of England should afterwards ask of
still likely to increase, arising, as he verily believed, from the
hint, what they ought to do ? He would tell them :
is no
longer a question of duty, it
bad administration of public affairs; and as the honourable.
is no longer to question of moral
ation;
oblig
it is a question of mere prudence alone, whether you
and learned gentleman thought from the obstinacy and per,
should obey or resist.' I endure the painful task of repeating
verseness of tie people ; it would be proper, in' order to stop
these words, only to ground a representation to that right ho-
TREA,SON AND SEDITION BILLS.
63
62
TREASON AND SEDITIO' BILLS.
[Dec 3.
795.]
pourable gentleman who so spoke; and I conjure him to speak
because the principle of the bill was so detestable, so radi-
out again, in terms not ambiguous, nor oracular, but plainly and
cally vicious, and so dangerous to the constitution of this
distinctly ; Whether now, if these laws, amended as they are,
country, that he believed it to be impossible to amend it to
shall be passed, he will again repeat his signal to the inquiring
any good purpose. He did not wish to gild a pill which con-
people of England, and bid them wzfurl the standard of rebellion?'
tained in its essence such a noxious medicine. He wished to
speak plainly upon such a subject, and he scorned to defend
Mr. Fox immediately rose. He said he was called upon in
himsclt by any species of garbled explanation. He believed
a very polite and civil, but at the same time in a very unpar-
that he was not singular, nor were those with whom he acted
liamentary manner in that House to account for his conduct.
singular, in abstaining from the committee upon this bill. He
The honourable gentleman might have taken notice of the
would ask gentlemen who were so forward to put questions to
whole that he had said on a former night. He would then
him upon this occasion ; nay, he would ask those who were
have afforded him an opportunity of restating his words if
the most forward to countenance the practice, but who did
they had been misconceived ; upon all this he had no par-
not choose to come forward themselves with such catechisms,
ticular complaint to make; he should only say, that the prac-
whether they did or did not aftend the committee on the
tice of attacking a member of parliament for what he said on
India bill, which be had formerly brought forward in that
former occasons, in that general manner, was wholly new in
House? Whether they had attempted in a committee to gain
the course of parliamentary debates. That an y individual
something in that bill for the East-India company? It was
member, for he made a difference between such a character
well known they declined altogether to attend that committee.
and a member of his majesty's council, should be thus called
Why ? They stated, that they conceived the principle of tho
to account, was very extraordinary, and what the honourable
bill (whether right or wrong, was another question,) to be so bad,
gentleman, when he had taken more pains to become ac-
that they would not endeavour to amend it in the committee.
quainted with the usages of the House, whatever abilities he
Let him ask the right honourable gentleman and the majority
might display in his speech, and however politely he might
of that House, who seemed to have forgotten the conduct of
conduct himself, would not he was persuaded frequently prac-
the minister and his adherents upoa that occasion, whether
tise. Indeed, there was hardly any part of the speech of that
they would not then have blamed him if he had asked them
honourable gentleman which, in former times, would have been
whether they did not think that their country would regard
suffered to be delivered in that House. He wished to know
them as acting with partiality ? But. he never thought of cen-
whether it would be of advantage to the proceedings of that
suring the right honourable gentleman for his conduct on that
House, that the sentiments of every individual, and every part
occasion, or- of inquiring into the grounds of his secession.
of his parliamentary conduct should be the subject of particular
He put it to the candour of the House, if it was worthy of the
debates, unless part of that conduct was such as called for the
the character of gentlemen, or if they imagined that the
particular cognizance of the House ? He knew there was
country would really consider those as honest men, who at-
a species of artifice, of which he did not accuse the honourable
tacked the same measure in one man, which they applauded
gentleman, to call on individuals in advanced stages of debates
in another, merely because he had the influence of the crown
upon a bill, to explain what they bad formerly said, and this
at his back, and because he had places and pensions and peer-
was done with a view of making it impossible to have a fair
ages to bestow? In his own opinion, such conduct reflected
debate. This he had experienced more than once; lie hoped
as little credit on their honesty as patriots, as on their under-
however he possessed a temper that was not to be discomposed
standings as men. He knew the honourable gentleman to
by such an artifice, and at the same time not to be damped
whom Ile alluded to be versed in the proceedhe. of parlia-
is
by any species of catechism.
ment, and with the knowledge which he possessed he certainly
The honourable gentleman had asked him questions, with
could not be ignorant that at one time there was a regulation
regard not only to expressions which he had used on a former
that no one who disapproved of the principle should attend
debate, but also with regard to his former conduct; and he
ou the commitment of a bill. The rule, however, had not,
seamed to think he had a right to know why he did not at-
of late, been rigidly observed; nor did he himself wish to ob-
tend the committee on the present bill. He thought he had
serve it in every instance ; there might, indeed, be cases in
told that honourable gentleman and the House already his
%rind' he disapproved of the principle of a bill, and yet might
reason for his non-attendance. He would repeat it. it was
be induced to attend the detail of it in a committee. But
64
TREASON AND SEDITION BILLS.
[Dec. j,
TREASON AND SEDITION BILLS.
Gs
5795.]
then it must be such a bill as would be capable of being mc,
to support it, and that he might be considered as a slave
dined by amendment, so as possibly to produce some good.
'''
rauthority. To avoid this, he would state, at once, that, if
With regard to the present measure, he was clearly of opi-
to o authority to support it, he would maintain it by
there was n
nion, that no amendment whatever could make the bill safe,
himself. He was not singular, however, in that opinion ; fbr
wise, just, or in any sense constitutional.
he believed that every man who really valued the principles of
With respect to the other points, which the honourable
our constitution, entertained the same sentiment ; and this had
gentleman had stated against him, and on which he had been
been eloquently expressed in a celebrated sermon recently
so much catechised, although he disapproved of such a mode
preached by Dr. Watson, the present Bishop of Landaff.
of debate altogether, as a personality, it did him no injury,
Mr. Fox said, that he himself had no such idea of the om-
because he never had expressed an opinion, in that House or
nipotence of the whole legislature of the country, as to sup-
out of it, which, if he had reason to alter, he was not ready
pose that it could not so conduct itself as to justify the resist-
to retract; or to which, if he still continued in the same
ance of the people. It was more necessary than ever to main-
opinion, he was not willing to adhere. The honourable gen-
tain this doctrine ; since it had of late become the fashion in
tleman had said, that he had explained away at one time,
that House to refer to precedents in the slavish reign of the
what he had said at another. He would ask that gentleman,
Stuarts. It seemed that some gentlemen were extremely fond
whether this was a fair charge, whether it was correct in
of reviving doctrines that were popular in those abject times.
point of fact, whether it was candid in point of inference?
Many men, of slender talents, had been encouraged by the
That honourable gentleman had stated certain words of his,
countenance which that eloquent man, and great genius, Mr.
but had omitted to accompany those words with the reason
Burke, had lately been supposed to give them. He lamented
which followed them. The honourable gentleman had charged
that talents so brilliant should have been so employed ; they
him with stating a certain doctrine, to which he was still
had contributed, in a great degree, to render odious principles
ready to adhere; the honourable gentleman, however, had
palatable. He trusted, however, that the spirit, the energy,
omitted to accompany that doctrine with the application of it.
the vigour of the English character, was not to be depressed;
Ile would ask that honourable gentleman, was it in reality
and that there would be always found in the country men bold
to the doctrine, or the application of it, that he objected ? He
enough to assert, aye and to maintain also, that king, lords,
thought a just, or a candid, or a wise man, would have en-
and commons, uniting to compose a legislature, might so con-
deavoured to understand the distinction between a doctrine
duct themselves as to justify resistance on the part of the people.
in itself dryly laid down, and the application of that doctrine.
Did any man say, or would any man maintain, that they were
This applied to what he had formerly said, when he had stated
so omnipotent that nothing which they did could justify the
what it was that would justify resistance on the part of the
resistance of the people? He believed there was not one,
people of this country. He never said any thing upon that
amongst the most base, contemptible, and servile of mankind,
topic, which he was not prepared to defend; and what he had
who was yet prepared to stale, that the people could, in no
asserted from principle, he would scorn to explain away,from.
case, be justified in resistance, even to the whole legislature.
caution. He was ready, therefore, to repeat the doctrine
He came next to the application of this doctrine, which,
he bad stated to its full extent, and he would repeat, that
for some strange reason or other, those gentlemen who ac-
neither lords nor commons nor king, no nor the whole legis-
cused him, bad totally omitted in the course of the late de-
lature together, were to be considered as possessing the power
bates. In referring to that, the House would do him the jus-
to enslave the people of this country ; they might separately
tice to recollect, that when he spoke of resistance, he did not
or unitedly do such acts as might justify resistance from the
speak of actual resistance, or the propriety of it at the present
people.. Was this doctrine false ? 'Was it necessary to urge
tinge ; he only stated it as an argument, to s pew that it might
any argument to support its truth ? It was a doctrine which
be just; and he observed, that it ought to be considered at-
he had learnt from his early youth. He had been taught it not
tentively by that House, when they were passing a bill, which,
only by Sydney and by Locke, but by Sir George Savile and
if all its provisions were enforced, after the declared sense of
the late Earl of Chatham. Had he any fear upon uttering
the majority of the people was against it, might provoke that
this doctrine ? Yes; one fear he confessed he had, and that
resistance. He was sure that the House would also do him
was, lest same persons might imagine that he was too pusil-
the justice to recollect, that he z,
uraed it as an advice to the go-
lanimous to maintain this doctrine without referring to audio-
verttors, not an incitement to the governed. Let gentlemen,
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then, not mistate his words, or the meaning of them, nor mis-
This he had not only stated as an Opinion, but he had argued
represent them again. He was not, he said, surprised at the
it in different stages of the bill, and though he had not been
misrepresentation that had taken place ; since the same thing
so fortunate as to convince the House, it was neither arro-
had happened with regard to the words of his honourable
gance nor presumption in him to affirm, that his arguments
friends upon the same subject, and particularly those of his
were completely satisfactory to himself, and that they never
honourable friend (Mr. Sheridan,) who had been accused that
had been answered. And if the House consented to any bill,
night of having recommended passive resistance. In that case,
the real effect of which was to give a mortal stab to the con-
he must declare, that his honourable friend had been very un-
stitution, he could not understand how any man could deny,
fairly treated. Be had not recommended resistance, either
that resistance on the part of the people involved only a question
passive or active; he had more than once or twice, in discus-
of prudence, and not of duty, if it was at all their province to
sing the subject of resistance, stated, that if there should be
guard it from danger, or to repel the assailant. The honourable
any persons determined to make resistance, the mode he should
n
,
gentleman, however, was not content with imputing to him the
recommend them to adopt would be that of a passive nature.
C'fecision on the question of right; he also thought fit to make
That, however, as well as other expressions, had been taken
him decide upon the question of prudence, a question on which
without the qualifications by which they were accompanied,
he had left the people entirely to determine for themselves.
which marked too plainly the sort of candour that was shewn
In talking of resistance, however, he must again observe, that
to himself and his honourable friends. But, after inflicting
he could not recommend it; for prudence, in his opinion, dic-
the most cruel wounds upon the constitution, the only re-
tated quietness to mankind under many severe oppressions.
source which was left them, was to cover their conduct by
There was a maxim from a celebrated character of antiquity,
misrepresentation, and of this resource, he allowed, they
of which he was fonder at this time than when the ardour of
availed themselves in its utmost latitude.
youth had greater influence on his passions. The more he
Mr. Fox said, he was not a correct measurer of words;
thought, the more he was convinced of the philosophy of the
but at the same time, when his meaning depended upon the
maxim, Iniquissimam pacem justissimo bellu antefero. That
precise expressions which he employed, he did not chase that
appeared to him to be one of the wisest sayings of that wise
his words should be misrepresented, or, what was the same
man, and it expressed his opinion upon the point of prudence
thing, partially given. The honourable gentleman had stated,
in these cases. He must also add, that if the people of this
that on a former evening he had shortly said, that if the pre-
country, who felt that they were called by Providence into a
sent bill should pass into a law, resistance would no longer be a
free state, should revolt at such a measure as the present bill,
question of duty but of prudence. This he certainly said,
he should not wonder at it. If they saw a conspiracy against
but lie would have it recollected that he said a good deal
that liberty which made them happy, a conspiracy proved, as
more. His expressions were, that if the bill now before the
it was, by the bill—for the bill repealed the bill of rights, and
House should pass into a law, contrary to the sense and opi-
reduced Englishmen to the character of slaves—he should not
nion of a great majority of the nation, and if the law, after
wonder if they resented it. If, therefore, regardless of the
it was passed, should be executed according to the rigorous pro-
maxim which he had just quoted, the people of England
visions of the act, then, in that case, resistance would not be a
glsahuNiolu be so unwise as to commit acts of resistance, ministers
question of duty but of prudence. These were the words which
might condemn them, parliament might condemn them, the
he had used, and from which he would not now depart. And
t might
ight condemn them, prudence might condemn them, but
if the general doctrine was admitted to be true, and if it was
he believed no good man could ever accuse them of moral
the opinion of the country, that the bill was a direct invasion
of the rights of the subject, and a daring attempt to subvert
The honourable gentleman had been pleased to accuse him
the constitution, the application of the doctrine could not be
roundly for sentiments which he had uttered on a former
false. The nature and tendency of the bill was the point at
night, and which he now repeated. He would ask that ho-
issue between him and the honourable gentleman ; and upon
n
•
ourable gentleman, if he approved of the names of Sydney
this point the House was now called upon to decide. He had
and Russell? Were they dear to that honourable gentleman ?
laboured to prove that it not only struck at the out-works and
" Dear to me they are (said Mr. Fox); dear is their very
bulwark of the constitution, but that it struck at the very vitals,
name ; dear to this country are the descendants of the illustri-
and went tctondermine the pillars upon which the fabric rested.
ous Russell. I see the spirit of . that great men at this day
2
68
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179$.]
animating his .descendant ; I see-a man of high rank, splendid
America should be independent of Great Britain, than
talents, and patriotic spirit, emulating the virtues of his an-
that, by the meanness of her servitude, she should have in-
cestor: I admire his principles, they adorn his character, and
fected this country by the baseness of her own slavery. Upon
• will I hope be rewarded with glory. I say he emulates thd:.
that occasion Lord Chatham had said, in his own peculiarly •
virtuous principles of his ancestor. Perhaps, some people
emphatic strain, 44 rather than slavery should be established, let
in this country wish he may share his fate. I, assuredly, have
discord reign for ever ;" and "old as he was, he wished to
no such wish ; but I have hopes, when I see the descendant at
see the question tried between government and the people."
the illustrious Russell possessing the spirit, the patriotism, the
The phrase was, perhaps, a. little harsh, but the principle was
fortitude, and the perseverance of his ancestor, that he will be
excellent. He was sure he had heard similar sentiments from
rewarded in like manner by the affections of an admiring
the late Sir George Savile. But after all, he would beg
people. Why do we admire the great characters of Russell
leave to say, that, of all the attacks to which he knew he was
and Sydney? Is it because they were unjustly condemned ?
exposed, there was but one he feared ; that of incurring the
Certainly they were unjustly condemned, for they were con-
charge of pusillanimity. He must therefore again say, that,
demned illegally, on defective evidence, and against law. But
from the course of his education, from the disposition of his
although they were thus condemned, is there a man this day
mind, and from the principles he had uniformly maintained, in •
who has read their history, and does not believe they had in
that House and out of it, he should be a fool if he did not
contemplation a resistance to the prince then upon the throne?
believe these principles to be true, and a coward if he did not
Why do we admire them then ? The simple injustice of their
profess them.
execution .could have reflected disgrace only upon their ac-
Mr Fox then adverted to another article of charge, which
cusers, and their judges. No; it is because we know they
had been brought against him ; namely, withdrawing from
had that resistance in contemplation ; that they were determi-
the committee on the bill. The motive which had been as-
ned to resist principles which then prevailed; principles which
cribed to this proceeding was very extraordinary indeed. For
were odious to the people of this country, much too nearly re-
how the honourable. gentleman could make out, that he had
sembling some modern doctrines among ourselves : they found
obtained a • triumph over his rival by -withdrawing from the
the law insufficient, and they endeavoured to bring about a
committee, he could not conceive. Had he attended, and
revolution favourable to the liberties and rights of English-
persuaded the House to alter some of the most obnoxious
men ; and if this be the cause at present, the question
clauses, then- with some justice, perhaps, he might have got
is still nothing but a question of the application of the same
the credit of a triumph ; but it was the first time he had ever
principle. These are the reasons why we admire the characters
heard that to absent one's self from a debate was the way to
of these great men, and admired they will be while a spark of
obtain a victory. But, when he attributed his conduct on
liberty. animates the bosom of an Englishman." These, Mr.
that occasion partly to another motive, which was, that the
Fox said, were his sentiments ; and he would maintain them
bill might go-into the country with all its limits upon its head,
to the hour of his death. If others, who heard him, did not
the supposition was not so incorrect, and, as far as it imputed
approve of them, let them use what arts they pleased to blacken
a crime, he would plead guilty to the charge. He confessed
him in the opinion of his countrymen ; he would still perse-
that he wished the bill to go abroad in its native deformity, as
vere; for he knew he had pronounced principles, independent
it was impossible for any amendment to render it worthy Of
of which his present majesty never could have been placed
retaining a place in the statute books of the kingdom.
upon the throne of these kingdoms.
On the different clauses of the bill he would not enter
He wished it again to be understood, that he did not mean
much at large, after the eloquent and irresistable speech which
to shelter himself under the authority of names; he spoke for
had been delivered by his honourable friend, no argument of
himself; but he could not here help referring to the venerable
which had ever been touched. There was only one or two
Earl of Chatham's speech on the American war. That great
points on which he wished to make a few remarks. It had been
statesman had said, " that he rejoiced the Americans had re-
contended by a learned gentleman (Mr. Hardinge), that not
sisted." A noble sentiment ! and although he differed on other
only meetings which were really dan gerous ought to be stopt, but
b
points from that illustrious man, he would say, that in that
that all meetings whatever, whether the debates were inflam-
event he rejoiced also; for considering the point which was
matory- or argumentative, ought to come within the operation
then at issue between America and this country, the had rather
of the bill. The learned gentleman saw that it was impossible
1 0
TREASON AND
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795']
accurately to draw the limits between one speech that was
already made by .his honourable friend. The general ,prin-
merely argumentative, and another which might contain some
ciple of every society be took to be that which it professed.
appeals to the passions, and therefore he wisely confounded
He knew it might be said, that the language which was held
all those trifling distinctions, and brought both within the
forth on behalf of these societies was moderated- in conse-
reach of the law. For instance, were he, in a public meeting,
quence of the course which parliament was then taking.
to state coolly and dispassionately, the inadequacy of our re-
The general principle of every society he took to be that
presentation, and the disproportionate influence of Old Sarum
which it professed. It had been said that Thelwall had lately
to some large and populous towns, in choosing their representa-
become more moderate, and that his moderation proceeded
tives, he might be taken up for sedition, a justice or magistrate
from terror of the strong measures now threatening to be
might dissolve the meeting, and, on their refusing to disperse,
adopted. He could not speak to the fact; but if it was as
he might call in the military to murder them. With respect
had been represented, he rather supposed that any improve-
to the conduct of magistrates, he had little to add to what had
ment in moderation had been owing to the prosecutions being
been said by his honourable friend. He bad received a letter,
suspended by the attorney-general. For he was convinced,
however, that day, from a most respectable magistrate, who
that lenient measures would be more effectual than violent
held that office muchto his honour, and the benefit of the place
steps, in subduing those who were disaffected to government.
in which he resided, in which he expressed his terror at these
Mr. Fox denied that there was any ground for the calumnious
bills. Heretofore, men of different political principles had
allegations advanced against the meeting at Copenhagen-
held the office of magistrates together, and, forgetting all
house. The meeting had assembled in a legal and consti-
private opinions on politics, had united in consulting the in-
tutional manner, for the legal and constitutional object of
terests of the poor, and in forming plans for their relief; where-
petitioning; but if there were a few individuals intent upon
as, henceforward they would be forced to depart from their
desperate designs, that was no reason for throwing out a
civil capacities to decide controversies between Mr. Burke and
general aspersion against the whole body. In great meetings
Mr. Paine. In short, it would be almost impossible for two
lie always conceived, too, that their ostensible object was their
men, differing in their political sentiments, however honest,
real object, because it was impossible to bring twenty or thirty
however expert, however useful in their office they might be,
thousand persons to practice dissimulation in unison. He
to be in the same magistracy. They were directed by this
would ask any gentleman to show him the probability of a
bill to check the progress of sedition in popular meetings.
person holding forth, in a very large popular assembly, any
How was it likely they should, for any length of time, agree
doctrine that was not agreeable to the real feelings of the
upon the propriety of interfering their authority, unless they
mass of that society? He would ask any gentleman to give
were all of One opinion?
him proof that the proceedings even at Copenhagen-house
In the course of the debates upon this subject, it had been
were in any degree seditious, and to show him that the meet-
taken for granted, that the preamble of the bill was a proof
ing there had any idea of recommending an attack upon his
of the object of it. That was a curious way of taking a point
majesty? The petition presented to that House contained
for granted; it never could be taken as a thing that was true
sentiments of a different nature. He would ask the attorney-
of course, and he did not believe it to be true in this instance.
general himself, if he knew of any proceedines at that place
The preamble of the bill talked of seditious meetings. A
b
which called upon him to institute a prosecution ? What they
learned gentleman had said, that as to the intention of these
had done upon that subject could not have been blamed in the
meetings, he had evaded the question. That learned gentle-
bad reign of Charles II. whose shameful example they were
man had asked what these societies were? A pretty compre-
at this time so fond of servilely imitating. They had not
hensive phrase, " corresponding and other societies !" He
gone beyond the limits which were then prescribed to those
had said, on a former occasion, that some of them meant one
who wished to petition the king. He did not know that these
thing, and some another. The learned gentleman had said
Proceedings opposed in the slightest degree, the sentiments of
that was Scrub's answer. He really did not care whether it
those who censured Jeffreys and impeached North. He did
was Scrub's answer, or the answer of any other person ; it
not know that they had clone any thing illegal; and he could
appeared to him to be the only good answer which a man
not presume the proceedings were seditious, merely because.
of common sense could make. Where there were a great
it was so insinuated in the preamble of the present bill. He
number of men, there must of course be a variety of senti-
knew that to take any thing for granted, without evidence,
ments, and upon that he must refer to the observations
4
•
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73
was contrary even to the principles laid clown in the slavish
charm which wrought upon the populace to make them sign
reign of Charles II. and directly contrary to all the principles
petition s against the hills ; but, were not loyalty to the sove-
of our constitution. But gentlemen, when they talked of
!•ian, and the support . of the constitution as popular words
seditious meetings, adopted general terms —" these societies"
as peace, and were they less frequently or less artfully used
--by which they converted t"them as it were, into a species of
to procure signatures to petitions of a different nature? But,
body corporate of sedition. Now, instead of considering them •
if gentlemen were willing to be deceived, in God's name let
as a body corporate, he considered them just as he did every
them be deceived. If they would shut their eyes, let them
other large body of men, as consisting of sonic good and some
persist in their error. The opposers of the bills had also
bad persons; and the mass of that body he considered to be
been accused of misrepresentation; but he would ask on
good. Such lie had considered, and had. more than once
*whom the suspicion of misrepresentation was most likely to
stated to be, the body of the society of which Mr. Reeves was
attach ? The accusers would not admit a day's delay, in order
president. He knew, indeed, that some of the publications
to rectify these misrepresentations : whereas the accused wished
of that gentleman, as also those of Mr. Arthur Young, were
for nothing. so much as for a little delay, to compare their
directly hostile to the best principles of our constitution, and.
representations with the fact. With regard to what had been
that they had been circulated with a mischievous avidity ; he
said upon the general opinion of the public upon this mea-
was, nevertheless, willing to allow that the mass of that society
sure, he believed it to be, in the true sense of the phrase, as
were what they professed to be, namely, friends to the con-
clearly against the general sense of the people of the country,
stitution of this country, as consisting of king, lords, and
and as entirely unpopular, as any measure that had ever been
commons. Precisely the same. did he think of the London
brought before parliament. That he was sure would be
Corresponding Society. By the way, there fell into his
evident to every unprejudiced man in the kingdom. Upon
hands very lately a pamphlet which contained much admir-
looking at the petitions, which had been presented, and.
able reasoning; it was stated in the form of a dialogue, sup-
stated to be in the nature of approbation of the bills, scarcely
posed to have been supported by two opposite characters, the
one would be found directly to approve of them. They
one a friend, the other an enemy, to the London Correspond-
prayed generally for such measures as the wisdom of parlia-
ing Society. The enemy says, " I hate the society because
ment might adopt, and were founded chiefly on an idea on
it has for its object the destruction of all monarchy." The
which there could scarcely be two opinions in the country,
friend says, " Have you found any thing of that kind in their
namely, that of congratulating his majesty on his fortunate
proceedings?" " No," says the other; " they are too cunning
escape from the late daring outrage upon his person.
to profess that." " What," says the friend of the society,
With regard to the general topic, that the present were fit
" were the 30,000 men all cunning?" Now, Mr. Fox said,
times for temporary restrictions upon popular rights, his
he fell very much in with this sort of reasoning, on behalf of
opinion was directly the reverse. He thought that the people
the society, because he believed it was very difficult to collect
of the country were more enlightened at the present period
together at any time, or at any place, 3 0,000 men, all of them
than ever they had been, and that they could be more safely'
so cunning as to conceal their real object.
trusted with liberty than the inhabitants of any other part of
In proposing the question the other night to the pro-
the habitable globe; because, the better they understood the
moters of the bill, as to their opinions upon the effect it was
principles of liberty, the better use would they make of them,
likely to have upon all societies, Mr. Fox declared he had not
and consequently the more and more might and ought they
done so for the purpose of endeavouring to amend the bill,
to be trusted with liberty. When gentlemen, therefore, asked
but merely to get, if he could, at the opinion of its authors as
him what measure he would adopt to prevent confusion, he
to the probable extent of it. It had been contended, that the
would answer, " meet the evil; reform those who are adverse
sense of the people of this country was not averse to the
to-your Constitution by reforming its abuses; reform —I do
passing of the bills. If they had eyes and ears, he:could not
not say upon what system, that may be discussed hereafter —
conceive how they could ever maintain such a proposition,
but reform the representation of the people in this House:
which the experience of every day demonstrated to be false.
keep your word with the public: tell them they may safely
And if they had lost the use of their senses, it was not to be
confide in your promise: proceed immediately to the abolition
expected that he could make up the loss by any arguments
of that infernal traffic the slave trade: shew them the con-
which he could adduce. Peace was said to have been the
stitution of this country in its perfection : show them that.
TREASON AND SEDITION /311.,Ls.
[Dec. to,
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TREASON AND SEDITION BILLS.
75
is favourable to the principles of liberty, and then your
Western, Mr. Sheridan, Mr. Maurice Robinson, Mr. Jekyll, and
my. Fox ; and supported by Mr. Alderman Newnham,
enemies will be so few that you indeed may despise them.
Sir W.
Pulteney, Mr. Hawkins Browne, Mr. Jcnkinson, the attorney-
These, Sir, are the points by which you will preserve the
P.?
general, and Mr. Pitt.
constitution of this country. I know that liberty is the
greatest blessing that mankind can enjoy, and peace the next;
Mr. Fox said, he entirely agreed with his honourable and
but, 'from the experience I have had of the human character,
learned friend (Mr. Jekyll) in thinking that there were no terms
and particularly of the people of England, persuaded I am
of reprobation and contempt too severe for the two important
that this bill will drive the people to this alternative: they will
bills which ministers had brought, on the sudden, into parlia-
feel that peace and liberty cannot be enjoyed if the provisions
ment. After hearing several speeches of the learned attorney-
of this bill be enforced. If the provisions of this bill be still
ceeneral with all the attention of which he was capable, and
obstinately endeavoured to be carried into effect, the attempt
after examining minutely the amendments which the present
will disgrace our government. I know that some persons
bill had undergone in the committee, he confessed that at
are of opinion, that, if this bill be not passed, government will
that moment, as much as ever, he was disposed to object to
be disgraced; and I believe that some of the promoters of it
every tittle and clause of it. He still retained the same ob-
are of that opinion, and therefore wish to pass this bill ; but
jections against the clauses relative both to sedition and misde-
that they do not intend to act upon it. I think that would
meanor that he had ever entertained. He was prejudiced
be next to throwing out the bill. As for myself, said Mr.
against the bill from its very preamble. An outrage had been
Fox, let gentlemen catechise me as much as they please ;
committed upon the person of the sovereign, and a new enact-
let them spread papers, stating me to be the enemy of my
ment was made, not for the better security of the life of the
country; let them blacken me as much as they please; let
king, for that was impossible, but to constitute an attempt to
them even be successful, if they can, in their endeavours to
overawe the Houses of parliament into a substantive treason.
make me odious to my countrymen ; still will I persist in
He was told that the present bill was merely declaratory ; and
doing my duty to the public, and never relinquish it but with
he was told, at the same time, that it was merely temporary :
my life. I am not vain enough to suppose, that any efforts
now, a temporary declaratory bill, he had no hesitation to
of mine have contributed much , to the spirit and the energy
pronounce an absurdity, and a contradiction in terms.
which has been manifested in this country; I should be proud
That the bill went to create new treasons had been con-
to think they bad; I should be glad to learn that any efforts
fidently denied; he must, however, affirm the direct contrary,
of mine had contributed to awaken my countrymen to a sense
and assert that it did create new treasons, if it was admitted
of the value of their own freedom. A great orator, whose
that there was any difference between an act being high trea-
chief defect has frequently been stated to be vanity, has said,
son, and an act being only evidence of high treason. At
Nobile .jusjuranans juravi, ne quid omitterem ut Ilespublica
present, an overt act was an evidence of high treason; but by
denique salva sit. That is far from being my opinion of myself:
the provisions of this bill, those acts which were before only
but ambitious I am to preserve the liberties of my country.
evidence of treason, became in themselves substantive treasons.
I have therefore opposed these bills; and I trust the spirit of
And if' new substantive treasons were created, new construc-
the country will resent them, especially as they are avowedly
tions would be made upon these treasons; so that not only
only a part of what is intended for them by those ministers,
all the constructions of the present statute would be .con-
who have brought on the present distresses of the country.
stituted into substantive treasons, but new constructions would
The House divided:
arise upon these new created treasons, which would perplex
Tellers.
T .
ellers
the statute to a degree that would render it impossible to be
{Mr. A. Neville ')
1 Mr. Sheridan
fairly understood. He had no objection to a declaratory
YEAS
266--No
.
ES
Mr. Steele
3
Mr. Whitbread P •
'explanatory of the statute of Edward III., by which it
might be reduced to its plain, simple, and original meaning.
1'he bill, however, he did not consider to be by any
December t o.
means calculated for that purpose. It was, indeed, the fashion
The motion for the third reading of the treason bill was this
to say, that it was necessary to give sonic additional security
day strongly opposed by Mr. Harrison, General Tarlcton, Mr.
to the person of the sovereign. He would nevertheless con-
13
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[Dec. r a
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77
tend, that it was not the natural effect of the extension of
lens meant by the words which were suffered to remain, for if
penal laws to confer security; and he appealed to the history
there was either sense or grammar in the expression, some-
of the world for the truth of his opinion. He asked, if ever
thing else than an overt act was meant. And if writing was,
there was an instance in any country in which the sovereign,
contra-distinguished from an overt act, to be considered as a
whether he was individual, or whether that power Was
substantive treason, he demanded with what propriety, or
de-
puted to an assembly,. was indebted for security- -to the se-
upon what grounds it was declared, that the present bill was
verity of a penal code? He called upon the House to look
merely explanatory of the statute of Ed ward
?
into the history of the bad times of the world, and to com-
Having said this much upon the treason part of the bill,
pare his observation with facts : and, if they were not sa-
which he thought the least objectionable, he proceeded to re-
tisfied with that comparison, he desired that they would
mark upon the clause respecting misdemeanour. And here
also it was contended, that the bill did not go to create any
j udge of it upon the experience of more modern times.
Was the overthrow of the primitive monarch
new misdemeanour, which he positively denied ; because, the
y of France
owing to lenient laws, or a lenient execution of those laws ?
judge would have it in his power to say to the jury, " Do you
And when the government of France was overturned, was the
find that these words and sentences were spoken with a design
fall of Robespierre owing to the gentleness of his principles, or
to excite the hatred and contempt of the people against the •
the mildness of those laws which he had framed for the pur-
House of Commons as at present constituted ?" and if the jury
pose of protecting his person ? If they looked to the assassi-
should find such a design to be proved, the court would have
nation of the King of Sweden, would they attribute that event
nothing to do but to claim the right of explaining the law, and,
to the extension of liberty, or to an unusual licence of speak-
under the legal construction of the act, to enforce its penalties.
ing and of writing ? Or would they not rather ascribe it to
Upon this principle, a meeting could not be held for petitioning
the enraged fimaticism of the people, at seeing themselves de,
ibr a reform in parliament, without incurring the penalties de-
prived of those liberties in which they were born, and under
' nounced in the provisions of the act. With regard to the
which they thought they had a right to live ? From what
penalty of transportation for the second offence, he did not
time were the regulations of the present bill borrowed ? Were
think that the arguments which he had adduced on a former
they not copied from the reign of Charles II., a prince against
night had ever been answered. He had then asserted, what
whom, certainly, not the fewest personal. attacks had been
he was not now disposed to retract, that the same offence
directed.
ought never to be punished with different penalties, particu-
lag
As far, then, as the bill respected the law of treason, in his
ne
yNev.hen there were diffiirent shades and degrees •in the
o
opinion, it created new substantive treasons, by constituting
an attempt to overawe the parliament an overt act of treason.
Gentlemen on the other side had pleaded the power of his
What was to be construed an attempt to overawe the parlia-
majesty to pardon, as an extenuation of the severities of the
ment? Did the framers of the bill intend that an attempt to
act. This privilege Mr. Fox considered as absolutely neces-
overawe the parliament, by the violence of prayer and of
sary in a goverment similar to that of England ; but there
petition, should be considered as an overt act of treason? •
Was a wide difference between this privilege when applied to
But,: if they meant to affix the penalty to hostilities directed
genera! and to political crimes. It was notorious, that this
against parliament, the provision, he considered, as super-
privilege of the king was controuled in its exercise by his mi-
fluous, as it would be impossible to wage hostilities against
'lister& In cases of felony he would trust the compassion of
iniyii )
either house of parliament, without, in the first place, making
minister, but in state prosecutions he would be backward
an attack upon the person of the sovereign. It had been
in trusting any minister, because these were connected with
cir
stated, that a convention had met for the express purpose of
cumstance in which ministers were particularly interested.
overawing the legislature; but of this he had never heard any
Far less would he trust the present ministers, who had sanc-
proof. He had some material objections to another clause
tioned the iniquitous and cruel sentences of the court of jus-
respecting treason, which had been somewhat altered in the
Scotland; sentences not less execrable than any
committee, but which in some respects had not been altered
which had been passed in the reigns of Queen Mary, or of
for the better. The clause to which he referred was that in
Charles
i "I I.
which " writing or overt act or deed " was mentioned. The
It was said that sedition was the reigning crime of the day :
word " other" was put out, bat he could not understand what
if it was, it looked ill for administration ; because popular
78
TREASON AND SEDITION BILLS.
[Dec. I 0,
1795.]
TREASON AND SEDITION BILLS.
79
discontent was the usual and, indeed, the natural consequence
his chair, if wicked . enough, might betray him ; and, seduced
of ministerial misconduct; and he ventured to predict, that if
by those in power, might give information which would en-
the present system was obstinately pursued, still more alarm-
danger both his liberty and his life. The abandoned maid-
ing consequences would ensue. Such laws as the present bills
servant of Mr. Muir had acted in a similar manner : violating
would constitute against sedition, were to him objects of ab-
the confidence reposed in every servant by a master, she com-
horrence, because they were novelties unknown to the Eng-
municated to the friends of government the honest, midis-
lish constitution. He was more and more convinced of the
cruised expressions of Mr. Muir's mind. All that he had fre-
rectitude of his opinion, when he reflected on the detestable
quently expressed was, a wish for reform of the abuses which
system of criminal law practised in Scotland ; the iniquitous
he daily saw ; and no good man could lay his hand upon his
and cruel sentence of the court of justiciary in which part of
heart, and deny the rectitude of his mind, when provoked by
the kingdom, his majesty's ministers had not only sanctioned
such a system as sullied the country which gave it birth.
but elaborately defended. The trial of Mr. Muir, and the
Mr. Fox said, that even if Mr. Reeves should be found
other unfortunate gentlemen who suffered a similar fate,
guilty of the libel on that House, which had lately engaged
Mr. Fox said he could never think of without expressing his
their notice : if he should be found to have recommended and
utmost abhorrence. The sentence was an eternal disgrace to
circulated another infamous libel against the constitution,
the court ; and the Scotch judge who had affirmed, that no
written by Arthur Young; arid if he should also be found to
punishment was too severe for the man who was guilty of
have published at different times libels against the protestant
sedition, that the wretch ought to be exposed to wild beasts—
dissenters, marking them out as a description of people who
that judge, Mr. Fox said, merited the universal execration of
ought to be exterminated, he would even go upon his knees
mankind, and it would entail lasting disgrace on the present
to beseech his majesty not .to enforce against Mr. Reeves a
times, as nothing more harsh, brutal, and unfeeling was to
sentence of transportation.
be found. in the arbitrary and oppressive reigns of Charles II.
A good deal had been said respecting his majesty's refusing
and Queen Mary. In the bill before the House, the abomi-
his assent to these bills. His own wish was for that preroga-
nably intolerant spirit of the Scotch court was attempted
tive of the crown to remain dormant and quiescent. It was a
to be established. The proceedings were a national disgrace,
prerogative which, he believed, would only be a favourite,
and were not excelled in the barbarous code of the most bar-
while it was not attempted to be exercised. He trusted, that
barous ages. Had Mr. Muir's case been submitted to an
if the bills should pass, they would meet with a speedy repeal.
English jury, he would, undoubtedly, have been acquitted :
He rather trusted that the people would petition his majesty
but, whether totally acquitted or not, he was fully persuaded
to dissolve parliament, which was their undoubted right, if
that he never would have been consigned to the sufferings
ever parliament had acted in such a way as to require an in-
which he had experienced. The noble and generous spirit of
terference of that kind. He rejoiced, that on the present occa-
England would have revolted at such excessive and over-
sion, the spirit of the people had shewn itself to be alive; and
strained punishments. And it ought never to be forgotten,
he trusted, that the display which had been made of the
e
that, notwithstandin g the grand jury found the bills against
nergy of the public mind, would be attended with the
h
the persons tried at the Old Bailey, the petty jury acquitted
appiest effects. The bills formed a crisis in the history
them.
of the country; inasmuch as they were a departure from
Mr. Fox condemned the unlimited power which the bill was
the whole system of the principles of the constitution.
about to repose in the executive government. By the infamy
The present bill was modelled upon an act of Charles II.
of spies and intrigues, both he and his countrymen were ex-
The people of England had, in his opinion, committed a
W
posed to the indignation of the court party for the time being.
orse offence, by the unconstitutional restoration of that mo-
He deprecated such an unconstitutional power, and bestowed
narch, than even by the death of Charles I. It was a mea-
sure.
unbounded praise on our ancestors for their wisdom in resist-
which originated in a period when the parliament gave
ing any appearance of such abominable encroachments upon
up to the king the disposal of the military force, and surren-
de
the liberties of the people. If the detestable spirit of the
red the liberties of the people at the foot of the throne.
Scotch law respecting sedition were established in this coun-
There was one clause in the act of Charles II., which spewed
try, then farewell to all liberty of speech
the spirit of those times. By this clause it was made penal
I farewell to the
to
familiarities of conversation The servant who stood behind
say the king was a papist. And why? Because such was
8o
TREASON AND SEDITION BILLS.
[Dec. I o.
THE BRITISH CONSTITUTION.
8 i
1795'1
the precise fact. It was rather inauspicious in the present
out against them and their writings ; and to prove that things at least
moment, that it should be thought necessary that a bill
as exceptionable had appeared from the partizans of the ministry,
should be adopted to prevent people from telling the truth.
he read to the House several passages from a pamphlet, entitled,
" Thoughts on the English Government," written by Mr. Reeves,
No man would say that George III. was a papist. But what
the framer and president of the association against republicans
was the object of the present bill ? By this bill men were
and levellers, and among others the following : " With the ex-
forbidden to speak of the defects of government, and of those
ception of the advice and consent of the two Houses of' Parlia-
abuses which were growing up from day to clay, to destroy
ment, and the interposition of juries, the government, and the
the spirit of the constitution. If ministers had not been
administration of it in all its parts, may he said to rest wholly and
conscious of the existence of those defects, they would not
solely on the king, and those appointed by him. Those two
have forbidden men to discuss them. He had somewhere
adiuncts of parliament and juries are subsidiary and occasional ;
read, that after the defeat of Brutus and Cassius, a decree
but the king's power is a substantive one, always visible and active.
By his officers, and in his name, every tiling is transacted that
had been passed that Augustus, who was then raised to the
relates to the peace of the realm and the protection of the subject.
highest. dignities of the state, should not be called a boy, —
The subject feels this, and acknowledges with thankfulness a
"puer, ne majestrati populi Romani detractaret." Augustus
superintending sovereignty, which alone is congenial to the sen-
passed no such decree at the latter end of his reign ; nor did
timents and temper of Englishmen. In fine, the government of
Tiberius, at any period, feel such a decree to be necessary.
England is a monarchy; the monarch is the ancient stock from
The present was a law against proclaiming the defects of the
which have sprung those goodly branches of the legislature, the
constitution, at a period when the government were every
Lords and Commons, that at the same time give ornament to the
day bringing on fresh abuses. The bill was itself an intole-
tree, and afford shelter to those who seek protection under it.
rable grievance. This is the last opportunity, (said Mr. Fox,)
But these are still only branches, and derive their origin and their
nutriment from their common parent; they may be lopped off, and
that I may have to state my sentiments with respect to these
the tree is a tree still ; shorn, indeed, of its honours, but not like
bills. I feel it therefore incumbent upon me to declare, that
them, cast into the fire. The kingly government may go on in
my objections still remain unimpaired. The one is calcu-
all its functions, without Lords or Commons, it has heretofore
lated to prevent the liberty of speech ; the other the liberty
done so for years together, and in our times it does so during
of writing and publishing. If these bills be carried into
every recess of parliament ; but without the king, his parliament
effect, and if their influence extend to the national character,
is no more. The king, therefore, alone it is who necessarily sub-
other nations will be enabled to say, that England, which has
sists without change or diminution ; and from him alone we un-
conquered others, has at last made a shameful conquest of
ceasingly derive the protection of law and government." Mr.
Stun then moved, that the House do order the attorney-general
herself.
to prosecute the author of the said pamphlet. The Speaker said
that the motion could not be made in that form. The honourable
The House divided on the motion, That the bill be read a third.
member must first make his complaint, and then move that the
time :
passage complained of be read by the clerk. Mr. Pitt said, he
Tellers.
Tellers.
would not say a word upon the merits or demerits of the pamphlet,
{Sir W. Yonne'
}
C Mr. Jekyll
YEAS
-
but he called upon the House to decide whether they ought to
Mr. John Smyth 2 26'
No ES I Mr. Whitbread} 4'5'
sacrifice the important. subject of discussion, which was expected
The bill was then read a third time and passed.
to occupy the attention of the House a great part of the evening,
to a subject of inferior moment, which had accidentally oc-
curred. He therefore moved the order of the day. — Mr.
Jekyll hoped there was still enough of honour and indepen-
dence in a British jury, and virtue sufficient in English judges, to
bring the author to condign punishment. The question was not,
w
MR. REEVES'S LIBEL ON THE BRITISH CONSTITUTION.
hether the House of Commons ought to be calumniated, but
whether it ought to be lopped off as an excrescence. He spoke
November 23.
on the ground of privilege, and therefore the question which he
spoke to was entitled to the priority of every other discussion. He
appealed to the highest authority of the House if he was not per-
•
THIS clay, Mr. Sturt in presenting to the House the petition
fectly in order. — The Speaker said, that questions of privilege
of the London Corresponding .Society against the Treason
celit.oar,ii: vi.
lyclaimed a precedence in discussion; and all that Wag
and Sedition bills, justified that body from the aspersions thrown
IVE. REEVES'S LIBEL. ON
[Nov. 23,
THE BRITISH CONSTITUTION.
$3
1795•]
necessary, to be done at present, was for the House to consider
suspended, indictments for high treason were drawn up; new
whether it was a question of privilege.— Mr. Erskine, taking for
treasons were enacted, and the bill of rights was repealed.
granted that the passage quoted from Mr. Reeves's pamphlet was
a libel, argued either that it was a question of privilege, or that
A -more atrocious libel than any that had been published now
it was not. If it was not, he contended that it was prejudging
appears from the pen of a ministerial hireling, against the
the case to direct the king's attorney-general to file any inform.
House of Commons, and the motion which is made by the
ation he had received against the libeller. But if it was a libel,
chancellor of the exchequer is
that we should proceed to
(and if it. was not, he knew not what was, for not only the con.
the other orders of the day Mr. Fox, though in general he
stitution, but the very existence of the House of Commons was
declared himself no friend to prosecution for opinions, called
represented as a matter of little or no concern,) the only point to
upon the House to come forward on the present occasion,
be settled was, whether a libel upon the House of Commons was
in vindication of their privileges, their dignit y, and their
or was not a question of privilege. Here Mr. Erskine referred to
existence.
the instance of the king versus Stockdale, in which the attorney-
general was directed to prosecute Stockdale for a breach of pri-
vilege of the House, not very dissimilar from the present. The
Mr. Windham said, that after hearing the passage read, he was
Speaker had given a decided opinion_ on the point, that a
not prepared to deliver his mind upon it.; but it was not conform-
question of privilege claimed a priority of discussion. The chan-
able to the interpretation given it by gentlemen. As far as he
cellor of the exchequer, on the other hand, had pressed the im-
was then prepared to decide on it, it might be perfectly innocent.
portance of the bill, as if the people of England were more
It was, he thought, merely the opinion or declaration of an
anxious to have their liberties taken away than to preserve the
antiquarian or historian, speaking his sentiments of the British
very existence of the right of representation ; a position which
constitution. It merely meant, that monarchy was antecedent to
that right honourable gentleman might endeavour to palm upon
the other parts of the constitution ; and might possibly survive or
the House, but which would require much more ingenuity of ar-
subsist without them. It was merely such an opinion as an his-
gument than he could command to render it palatable. — Mr. Pitt
torian might give of any form of polity. He was persuaded, that
said, he did not mean to argue upon any of the sentiments con-
if it were tried before that tribunal which gentlemen sentenced it
tained in the pamphlet ; the leading consideration was, whether
to, there was not sufficient to condemn it. With respect to the
it was a breach of privilege or not ? And, if it was, he thought,
person who was said to be the author, very indecent language;
instead of recommending the attorney-general to prosecute, the
had been used; but the gentlemen who so traduced his cha-
House should vindicate its privileges by acts of its own. How-
racter had good reason : he incurred their displeasure, in pro-
ever, he was at present for passing to the order of the day.
portion as he gained the good will of the country.
Mr. Fox considered the objection which had been started
Mr. Fox said, that he was always sorry when he felt him-
by the chancellor of the exchequer as the strangest he had
self obliged to arraign the general character of any man;
ever heard. A member of parliament had complained of a
but of Mr. Reeves he must say, that he never could mention
breach of privilege ; .and, because an informal remedy had
him with respect, since he saw in the public prints a letter
been proposed by a single individual, was this to alter the
respecting him by Mr. Law. He asked, was this a solitary .
fact in limine ? But the great object was to get forward to
libel ? He always doubted the wisdom of prosecuting for opi-
the order of the day. Oh, how differently (exclaimed Mr.
nions ; but when opinions were made the grounds for the
Fox) do you feel on the code of liberty, and on the code of
alarming bills then pending, it was for the House to see,
despotism ! France emerged from a state of slavery, and
whether they ought not to hold this libel in equal abhorrence
shook off the chains of her tyrants — a general alarm was
with any that ever came before them. He said, he was not
the consequence — an armament was ordered war was de,
fond of prosecutions for opinion, and he proposed merely
dared — millions of treasure have been expended, and thou-
that the House should publicly declare the sentiments they
sands of lives have been sacrificed. Poland was robbed of
entertained of this atrocious libel. Great God ! said Mr.
her liberties by the lawless grasp of overgrown ambition. In
Fox, 'shall it go out into the world, that a gentleman of dis-
.one speech of the minister, a lamentation was made over the
ti nguished talents, and powerful influence in the cabinet,
scene of oppression, and shortly after a treaty was signed to
holds the doctrine which this passage inculcates ! If he ad-
guarantee the robbery The Corresponding Societies came
heres to that opinion, it is a demonstration that the system
forward with spirit in the cause of parliamentary reform, and
of the cabinet is changed, that a settled plan of overthrowing.
-4 few paltry libels were published; the habeas corpus aCt was
the liberties of the people is _entertained. He was glad that
0 2
84
MR. REEVES'S LIBEL ON
[Nov. 23.
THE BRITISH CONSTITUTION.
85
5795'.]
those ministers who had been once his friends, were the per-
existence of the treason and sedition bills formed another
sons who displayed some openness and candour, for from
why this publication should not be passed by ; for if
Ft
orowt
their declarations, the opinion of their colleagues was to be
was found that arbitrary doctrines were recommended, and
gathered. He wished to know, whether the secretary at war
if arbitrary measures were in the course of being adopted by
could possibly defend this libel as innocent; and therefore
ministers, he then thought it of consequence that the House
he hoped that gentlemen would discuss it. He hoped the
should not subscribe to the opinion of the right honourable
House would come to no opinion on the passage, till they
the secretary:of war, that the passage in that publication, which-
had heard the context. He hoped that the House would
had been particularly referred to, appeared to be innocent.
agree to the reacting of the whole of the pamphlet, and that
A learned gentleman (Mr. Adair) admitted it to be a libel on.
they would not proceed on detached scraps, as they did in
the constitution, and yet was an advocate for delay. Why did
bringing in the bills.
he not narrow his condemnation to the doctrines contained in
that particular passage ? Notwithstanding all the partiality of
The question was put, that the said pamphlet be read, which
ministers for arbitrary power, he did not conceive that many of
-was agreed to without a division. After it had been read by the
their advocates would be found to come forward to support
clerk, Mr. Sheridan said, that it must now be admitted upon full
those doctrines. A delay, then, was on their part desirable, in-
proof to be the falsest, foulest, dullest, and most malicious pamphlet
order that they might concert, in the interval, whether any de-
that had ever issued from a prostituted press. Doubts had been
fence could be set up for this passage, in all probability- the-
stated, whether the author was of importance enough to attract
production of one of their own agents. But, he asked, was
and call for the weighty and immediate notice of that House : but
this exceptionable passage so long, was it so doubtful, that
they should consider, that this person was the main agent and
abettor of all those associations which originated and circulated
after having heard it once r ead, the House could have any
those alarms about French principles, that had contributed so
hesitation with respect to its tendency ? Did ministers wish.
much to the unhappy state in which the country, stood at that
for the delay of a few days, in order to give notice to the-
moment. He considered him however as too despicable for that
author of the libel, to get out of the way? Did they wish
species of trial which Sacheverell, whose works contained no prin-
for time in their distressed situation, in order to palliate the
ciples more detestable, had suffered. He would therefore move,
atrocity of the libel by some straining and twisting of the-
" That the said pamphlet is a malicious, scandalous, and seditious
other parts of the pamphlet, and justify the declaration set up-
libel, reflecting on the glorious Revolution ; containing matter
by the right honourable the secretary at war, that it was per-
tending to create jealousies and divisions among his majesty's loyal
fectly innocent? It was, Mr. Fox declared, a libel of a more
subjects, to alienate their affections from our present happy form
of government, as established in king, lords, and commons, and
dangerous nature, and a worse tendency, than any that had
to subvert the true principles of our free constitution ; and that
been issued by the Constitutional and Corresponding Societies.
the said pamphlet is a high breach of the privileges of this House."
It was not difficult, however, to perceive the tenderness of mi-
The master of the rolls finding it impossible, he said, to make up
nisters for this libeller on the House of Commons, nor to pe-
his mind to an instantaneous decision upon such a mass of matter,
netrate into the motives of their conduct ; and he thought it
moved, " That the said pamphlet be taken into further consider-
a bad omen for the country, that while such dispositions were
ation on Thursday." In this he was supported by Mr. Pitt and
manifested, it should be urged, that not a moment was to be
Mr. Sergeant Adair ; and opposed by Mr. Erskine, who moved
lost in coming to a decision on bills, which, under the pretence
that the word " to-morrow" be inserted instead of " Thursday."
of giving greater security to his majesty's person, were, in
reality, calculated to strengthen the hands of government, and
Mr. Fox said, it had been asked, why he had not brought
overturn the privileges of the constitution.
on the consideration of the pamphlet before ? In answer to
which, he begged leave to say, that he did not know whether
The question for adjourning the further consideration of the
be should have brought it on at all. He conceived that dan-
pamphlet till Thursday was carried without a division.
gerous opinions might be stated in a publication, and that yet
might not be of consequence to proescute the author. But
when such a publication as the present was brought forward
November 26.
in that House ,it was then incumbent on them to show that they
The debate on Mr. Sheridan's motion being resumed, it was
Were not parties to libels upon the constitution, nor the pa-
-strongly opposed by Mr. Windham, who defended the pamphlet
-tioni of those by whom such libels were circulated. The
In a speech of considerable length.
0 3
86
MR. REEVES'S LIBEL ON
[Nov. 26,
THE BRITISH CONSTITUTION.
87
179$.J
Mr. Fox asked, whether the right honourable secretary at
war would have taken the same pains to find out a different
meaning had any other pamphlet been the subject of discus-
sion? Supposing it had been from Mr. Paine's ? If so, he
December 14.
would then, indeed, pronounce him impartial. Or, if he,
(Mr. Fox,) had endeavoured to explain any pamphlet coming
The reports of' the committee appointed to enquire who was the
from a member of the Corresponding Society, whether that
author of the pamphlet, entitled " Thoughts on the English Govern-
ment," being this day taken into consideration, Mr. Sheridan
right honourable gentleman would have exculpated him from
moved, " That one of the said printed books be burnt by' the
the charge of partiality towards that body; then, indeed, he
hands of the common hangman in the New Palace-yard, 'West-
would give him credit for impartiality on the -present occa-
minster, on Monday, the zest day of this instant December, at one
sion : bat when he saw him employing his ingenuity in order
of the clock in the afternoon ; and that another of the said printed
to give a sense to the pamphlet different from what it would
books be burnt by the hands of the common hangman before the
obviously bear, he could not help thinking that the right ho-
Royal Exchange in London, on Tuesday the 22d day of this in-
nourable gentleman entertained some lurking partiality to-
stant December, at the same hour; and that the sheriffs of London
wards the principles asserted in that pamphlet. Would any
and Middlesex do attend at the said time and places respectively,
and cause the same to be burnt there accordingly." As an amend-
gentleman venture to declare, that there did not appear as set-
ment to this motion, Mr. Secretary Dundas moved, " That an
tled a design in Reeves's association to attack the constitution,
humble address be presented to his majesty, humbly to desire his
as in any of the corresponding societies? To the pamphlet
majesty that he will be graciously pleased to give directions to his
of Mr. Arthur Young, an express vote of thanks, signed by
attorney-general to prosecute John Reeves, esquire, as the author
Mr. Reeves, as chairman of the association, and an appro-
or publisher of a printed pamphlet, entitled " Thoughts on the
bation of the doctrines contained in Mr. Young's pamphlet.
English Government, &c.' After the amendment had been sup-
were subjoined. The principles which Mr. Reeves's association
ported by Lord Sheffield and Mr. Sylvester Douglas,
wished to adopt were, that rotten boroughs, extravagant courts,
selfish ministers, and corrupt magistrates, formed the security
Mt. Fox said, that with respect to the danger to be appre-
for the constitution of England. What could such doctrines
hended from the pamphlet, he could not allow that the danger
proceed from but a settled design in that society to destroy
of an arbitrary government being established was wholly chi-
the constitution of this country? If' they analized the pam-
merical, though he was ready to admit that the recent feeling
phlet minutely, they would find the doctrine contrary not only
which had been excited by the two bills had, in a considerable
to fact, but to the language of the statute-book, which declared,
degree, diminished his apprehension of such an event. In a
that the government of this country was not simply a mo-
mixed government like this, however, all publications were
narchy, but a government in king, lords, and commons.
dangerous which tended to give to one of the parts of that
My own difficulty (said Mr. Fox) is what the conduct of the
government too great an ascendancy over the rest. It might
House should be on this occasion. I profess myself an enemy
be asked, why, if no prosecution were wished, all the facts had
to prosecutions for libellous attacks; and yet, at such a time
been stated ? For this plain reason, to convince the House of
as this, when Mr. Reeves's association arc spreading their
the impropriety of the pamphlet. What was it that'be de-
pernicious doctrines abroad, I am anxious that the House of
sired? It was this, that as a pamphlet such as this bad been
Commons should express their disapprobation of principles
brought before the House, the House should not content them-
recommended by that association. I wish to get at the author
selves with a mere vote of censure, but should make the pam-
of this pamphlet; and this is so material an object, that I
phlet undergo, as it were, the ignominious punishment of
think the better way would be, for the House to keep this
burning. With regard to precedents, he contended that, with
business in its own hands.
a very few exceptions, they ran in favour of the original
motion. Early in the present reign, a pamphlet, called
The motion was carried, and a committee was afterwards ap-
" Omit le Roi," had been complained of, censured, and burnt.
pointed to enquire who was the author of the said libel.
At the commencement of the American war, another pam-
phlet, called " The Crisis," had also been complained of and
burnt. Why, then, should it be for the honour of the House
at present to thew such tenderness for the doctrine contained
0 4
88
MR. REEVES'S LIBEL, &C.
[Dec. 14,
KING'S MESSAGE RESPECTING, &C.
$9
s795.]
in the pamphlet, as to exempt it from the punishment which
had been inflicted on similar doctrines?
An insinuation had gone forth, that a wish to oppose Mr.
Reeves had existed, and a noble lord (Sheffield) had stated,
that that gentleman was to be prosecuted because he had
KING'S MESSAGE RESPECTING A NEGOCIATION WITH THE
counteracted the views of gentlemen on his side of the House.
PRESENT GOVERNMENT OF FRANCE.
Now, he would fairly own, that Mr. Reeves had counteracted
his views. His views had been to put an end to all religious
December 9.
differences. Mr. Reeves's association, however, had tried to
light up the flame of religious discord all over the king-.
dom. His own object had always been to preserve the ba-
N the 8th of December, Mr. Pitt presented the following
O message from his majesty :
lance between all the parts of the government. Mr. Reeves,
by the circulation of Mr. Soame Jenyns's doctrines, and
" GEORGE R.
other pamphlets, had tried to destroy that balance. He
" His majesty relying on the assurances which he has received
from his faithful Commons, of their determination to support his
was, therefore, not ashamed to say, that Mr. Reeves had
majesty in those exertions which are necessary under the present
counteracted his views. He had mentioned Mr. Soame
circumstances, recommends it to this House to consider of making
Jenyns's pamphlet ; lie had read it when it first came out;
provision towards enabling his majesty to defray any extraordinary
he thought it ingenious and innocent. But though Mr.
expence which may be incurred for the service of the ensuing year,
Jenyns wrote it innocently, did Mr. Reeves circulate it in-
and to take such measures as the exigency of affairs may require.
nocently? The material difference lay in that circumstance
His majesty, on this occasion, thinks proper to acquaint the House,
altogether.
that the crisis which was depending at the commencement of the
Arguments had been used to shew that the House, if they
. present session has led to such an order of things in France, as will
adopted the motion, would, at the same time, be judge and
induce his majesty (conformably to the sentiments which he has
already declared) to meet any disposition to negotiation on the part
jury. Was it not in the nature of things that it must be so ?
of the enemy, with an earnest desire to give it the fullest and speedi-
And in a case which related to its own privileges, how could
est effect, and to conclude a treaty of general peace, whenever it
it be otherwise ? Could any of the courts below vindicate their
can be effected on just and suitable terms for himselfand his allies.—
privileges, in any other manner than by acting both as judge
It is his majesty's earnest wish that the spirit and determination
and jury ? If he were asked, whether he would stop there,
manifested by parliament, added to the recent and important suc-
his reply would be, that he had no objection. He had no
cesses of the Austrian armies, and to the continued and growing
objection also to sending for Mr. Reeves to the bar. At the
embarrassments of the enemy, may speedily conduce to the at-
bar he might make his defence, and comment upon the evi-
tainment of this object on such grounds as the justice of the cause,
dence that had been adduced against him, in order either to
in which this country is engaged, and the situation of affairs, may
entitle his majesty to expect."
disprove it or abate its force and application. About punish-
On the following day the said message was taken into consider-
ment he was little solicitous, and he should even have cared
ation, when Mr. Pitt moved, " That an humble address be pre-
little about burning the pamphlet, if Mr. Reeves had not been
sented to his majesty, to return his majesty the thanks of the
at •the head of these associations ; and if this and other pam-
House for his most gracious message : To acknowledge, with the
phlets, circulated by those associations, had not proceeded
utmost gratitude and satisfaction, his majesty's condescension and
from the same shop. The removal from a place of trust was
goodness, in haying been graciously pleased to acquaint us, that
certainly a severe punishment; but was it not inflicted in cases
the crisis which was depending at the commencement of the session,
where particular tests were not taken? Had it not been in-
has led to such an order of things in France, as will induce his ma-
jesty, conformably to the sentiments which he has already declared,
flicted in similar cases to the present. In the case of the
to meet any disposition for a negotiation on the part of the enemy,
Bishop of Worcester, who had interfered in an election, did
with an earnest desire to give it the fullest and speediest effect, and
not the House petition the Queen to remove him from the
to c onclude a treaty of general peace, whenever it can be effected
office of almoner to her majesty ?
on just and suitable terms for himself and his allies : To assure his
majesty, that, until that desirable period shall arrive, it is our firm
Mr. Sheridan's motion was put and negatived ; after which
determination to continue to afford his majesty that vigorous sup-
Mr. Dundas's motion for the attorney-general to proceed against
port which we are persuaded is essential to the most important
Mr. Reeves was agreed to.
A PEACE WITII FRANCE.
[. 9
KING'S MESSAGE 'RESPECTING
Dec ,
1795•]
91
90
)osition to negociation on the part of the enemy, your faithful
interests of his kingdom ; and that it will yield us the highest grati.
ommons now humbly beseech your majesty to give distinct direc-
fication, if his majesty's powerful preparations and exertions, added
h
t ions that an immediate negociation may be entered on the above
to the recent and important successes of the Austrian armies, and
salutary object."
the continued and growing embarrassments of the enemy, should
to
The amendment was seconded by Mr. Grey, who advanced a
have the happy effect of speedily conducing to the restoration of
variety of facts and reasonings upon them, to prove the propriety
a general peace on such grounds as the justice of the cause in which
of treating. Mr. Pitt replied, that until the present opportunity,
this country is engaged, and the situation of affairs, may entitle his
none had offered to encourage ideas of peace, which, however, had
majesty to expect."
not been prevented by the mere existence of a republic in France,
Mr. Sheridan avowed himself of opinion, that the intention of
but by a total absence of any species of regular government. The
the minister was to frustrate the motion for peace, of which his
change now was manifest : the new constitution was contrary to
honourable friend Mr. Grey bad given notice. What other mo-
the doctrine of universal equality; the French had now a mixed
tive, lie asked, could induce the minister to this change of lan-
form of government, admitting of distinctions in society ; and their
guage respecting the French, whom he • had so lately represented
legislature was not constructed on a pure democracy. This fully
as unable to continue the war, and on the brink of destruction?
authorized ministry to consider them in quite another light than
The•men who governed that country were the same who had put
formerly ; but did not furnish any pretence for depriving ministers
the king to death, and with whom, our ministry had declared, no
of their right to act in the name of the executive power, without
settled order of things could ever take place. But, whoever were
undue interference, which must certainly be the case, were the
the governors of France, Mr. Sheridan insisted, that no reason•of
amendment to be adopted.
that sort ought to prevent an accommodation . On that ground
he would move the following amendment : " Your majesty's faith-
Mr. Fox said, that however he might differ from much of
ful Commons, having thin manifested their determination to give
your majesty the most vigorous support in the further prosecution
what had fallen from the right honourable gentleman, how-
of the war, in case just and reasonable terms of peace should be
ever he might object to the terms of the address which had
refused on the part of the enemy, and having declared the cordial
been moved, there was one thing which must give him plea-
satisfaction they feel at your majesty's gracious intention, to meet
sure; he must congratulate the House and the country on
any disposition to negociation, on the part of the enemy, with an
the complete change which had happily taken place in the
earnest desire to give it the fullest and speediest effect, cannot at
language and in the system of government. The House
the same time avoid expressing the deep regret they feel, that your
would believe him when he said that he rejoiced, and when
majesty should ever have been advised to consider the internal
he congratulated them upon this change, since he had also to
order of things in France to have been such, as should not have
congratulate himself upon the occasion, as this change of
induced your majesty at any time to meet a disposition to negocia-
tion on the part of the enemy :— And your faithful Commons feel
language and of system pronounced his pardon, and was a
themselves at this conjuncture the more forcibly called on to.
complete absolution of all his past sins. Ministers had made
declare this opinion, because, if the present existing order of things
a total rctractation of all the charges they had brought against
in France be admitted as the motive and inducement to negocia-
him for the motions he had made, and for the doctrines he
tion, a change in that order of things may be considered as a ground
had held from the commencement of the war to the present
for discontinuing a negotiation begun, or even for abandoning fi
day; they had fully acquitted him, and had positively de-
cluded : Wherefore, your majesty's faithful Commons,
treaty con
clared that, in every sentiment he had uttered, he was right,
duly reflecting on the calamitous waste of treasure and of blood,
and that the House should have acted upon his opinion ;
to which it is now manifest the acting on this principle has so un-
for all along he had maintained the doctrine now laid down
fortunately and so largely contributed, and greatly apprehensive
of the grievous and ruinous consequences to which the persevering
in his majesty's message. Three years ago, namely, on the
to act on such principles must inevitably tend, do humbly and
15th of December 5792, lie had made a motion for a negoci-
earnestly implore your majesty, that it may be altogether aban-
ation for peace. In June 179 3 he had done the same thing;
doned and disclaimed ; and that the form of government, or internal
be had also moved an amendment in the course of the same
order of things, in France, whatever they may be, or shall become,
session, tending to the same purpose. In January 17 94 15,?.
may be no bar to a negociation for restoring to your majesty's sub-
had supported the motion of an honourable friend; and in -
jects the blessings of peace, whenever it can be effected on just and
the latter end of the same session he had maintained and
suitable terms for your majesty and your allies : — And as the
your
supported in argument the same sentiment as that now con-
principal bar to a negociation for peace appears to have been
veyed in his majesty's message, namely, that it was fit and
majesty's having been hitherto advised to consider the order Of
Pr
France as precluding your majesty from meeting a dis,
oper to negotiate with the existing government of France.
things in
[Dec. 9.
A PEACE WITH PRANCE.
92
KINGS MESSAGE RESPECTING
1795'3 93
•
It had been his uniform argument, that, at every moment
intentions, and to the sound policy of the gentlemen on his
from the first commencement of hostilities to the present, it
tsii:/eTemhoehiscaltIlaidei
was wise and politic to make the declaration which had been
sco.f the exchequer had thought to involve
now submitted to the House, — that France was in a state
by insinuating that his honourable friend
to negociate with this country. He had, therefore, at present,
had argued against the address. But this Mr. Fox positively
this triumph, that ministers retracted by this message all the
denied, for he had not opposed the address, but thinking it
n
lanena they had held in answer to his motions, and all the
language
inadequate fully to express the sentiments which the House
which they had thrown upon him. 44 What !"
ought to feel on the occasion, he had proposed an amendment
they said, " treat with men whose hands are yet reeking
more definite in its object, and more comprehensive in its
with the blood of their sovereign ! What ! treat with men
provisions. He could not, however, but protest against a
who would come here with principles that are destructive of
mode of arguing, by which a person was not allowed to
all government !" Such were their arguments, and yet mark
approve of an address if' he ventured to express his disap-
their conduct: they now declared themselves ready to treat
probation of the measures by which the situation was pro-
with the new directory of France, four members of which bad '
duced in which the address was moved. If it should be said,
actually participated in the judgment and death of their
that it was an opposition to the address, because they pro--
sovereign, and were directly implicated in that act. He
posed an amendment, he must protest against such reasoning,
regretted exceedingly the absence of some gentlemen from
which tended to deprive him of' the freedom of speech. If he
the House this evening, who had signalized themselves by
must agree to a proposition only in the terms in which it was
reprobating his sentiments and conduct in the severest terms,
put, he was deprived of deliberation, and was no longer
because from them also he might have received the same
permitted to be a free reasoner. But this would not, he
sentence of pardon and absolution, and because they might
supposed, be seriously disputed ; and it would not be ascribed
now have been ready to confess, that the censures in which
. to him, that he was an enemy to peace because he agreed
they had so liberally dealt were the effect of sudden irritation,
to an amendment to a message which was extremely equivocal.
or gross misapprehension. Other modes of attack had been
An enemy to peace ! The whole tenor of his reasoning from
practised; not the least remarkable of which was, that he
the commencement of the war was, that every moment was
and his friends left nothing to the discretion 'of ministers.
favourable to a negotiation for peace. Had he any objec-
When by their motions they had merely called upon the
tions to that peace being concluded by the honourable gen-
House to consider the existing government of France as
tleman? None; for he should think it an addition to the
capable of maintaining the relations of peace and amity with
blessings of peace, if the country could along with it procure
their allies, a complaint was made on behalf of ministerial
the advantage of bringing his majesty's ministers into dis-
discretion, and the supporters of the motions were accused
grace; and he should conceive that they were completely
of a wish to deliver over his majesty's advisers bound hand
disgraced by the retractation of every assertion they had made,
and foot, to the governors of France. They did no such
and by the surrender of every object which they had held
thing; neither his two amendments, nor the motions of his
out as the pretext of war. If this should be said to be an
i
honourable friend (Mr. Grey), went so far as the present
nvidious mode of speaking, he bad no objection to plead
message from the crown. His amendments did no more
guilty to the charge, for he most assuredly did think, that
than declare, that there were no embarrassments to treating
next to the blessings of peace would be the disgrace of mi-
n
in the form of the government of France; nothing that made
isters, who had entered upon the war without reason and
r
it impossible or improper for this country to treat. The
ejected every opportunity of concluding a peace upon terms
motion of his honourable friend was still more gentle. It
more favourable for the country than any that they
was, that there was nothing in the government of France
were now likely to obtain. It might, however, be their con-
that tended to retard a negotiation. But the present mes-
soling idea, that if they had rejected peace upon better terms
t
sage declared at once their readiness to treat under certain
han they were now likely to obtain, still they had brought
circumstances, and the House were now called upon to do
the country
country to such a pitch of calamity, and so clamorous
what had then been declared to be so improper, so degrading,
were the people, that peace upon any terms would be received
and so ignominious. All these foul epithets, however, were
from them as a boon and an atonement for all their trans-
gr
now completely retracted, and justice was dohe to the good-
essions. Such might be their feeling. But, if it were
Possible to believe that the members of that House could so
94
KING'S MESSAGE RESPECTING
[ Dec. g.
A PEACE WITH FRANCE.
795']
95
far surrender their pride, their independence, and their spirit,
and had concluded a peace accordingly. It was
as to justify such a sentiment, he could only say, that they
s.t:iadtetto all the world, then, except to the king's ministers
eviden
surrendered their public principles to personal motives, but
if they had been sincere in the declaration that they made
that such conduct was inconsistent with their duty as repre-
in die month of June last, it would have been manifest to
sentatives of the people, and incompatible with their' cha-
them also, and they would have acted upon it. With this
racter as men of honour. 'No; though they should give
alaring fact before their eyes, would the House again leave it
peace to the country, he would not agree to forget their de-
in their power to juggle with words, and to evade their own
merits. He should still think himself bound to accuse them
declarations? Would they not now think it necessary in pru-
as the authors of all the calamities that we had suffered, and
dence to bind them down to a specific act upon their own
he should not think it was a sufficient atonement for their
words? If they did not, what possible confidence could they
conduct, that they had prevailed on a majority of that House
have in the present declaration more than in the past? They
to support them in the system.
might say, it was true that at the time of making such decla-
He now came to consider the question of the amendment.
ration there appeared to be a disposition in France to treat;
And first, it was necessary to inquire whether the address
but now circumstances have changed, and there is not the
wanted explanation ; and secondly, whether it was not neces-
same disposition. They might affect to see circumstances un-
sary, in addition to the declaration which it contained, to
known or totally disregarded by the rest of Europe, and
come to some precise expression of the sense of the House as
might say that they were not bound by the present declaration,
to the necessity and wisdom of negociation, whatever might
and that the House had come to no opinion which made it
be the form of the government of France. The right ho-
necessary for them to treat; such had been the result of their
nourable gentleman, had said, that they should be left open
former conduct. The right honourable gentleman had per-
to negotiate, but not be obliged to it. Upon this lie would,
suaded the House to leave them to the exercise of their own
inquire, whether there did exist at this moment a form of
discretion, and they had neglected the time which other
government in France, that in the opinion of his majesty's
statesmen and other cabinets had wisely seized and happily
ministers made it wise, fit, and practicable for them to treat?
improved. If the House desired, therefore, that the blessings
This was the question. Was it not the intention of gentle-
of peace should be restored to the country, they must take
men, that with such a government they should treat ? Last
care that the present address should be precise and definitive,
year, when his honourable , friend made a motion for paci-
If it was not clear and intelligible, it was fit that it should be
fication, the right honourable gentleman objected to it as
amended, and the experience of last year ought to convince
being a practical declaration for treating, and he moved an
them that no loop-hole should be left, no latitude given, to
latitude a,
,
amendment, which he called a conditional declaration, that
that disposition to equivocate which they had so much reason
we were disposed to treat, 'whenever there was a form of go-
to lament.
vernment in France capable of maintaining the accustomed
Speaking of France, the right honourable gentleman said,
relations of peace and amity with other countries. That
that the present was a fit government with which to treat;
time was come. I-Bs majesty's message expressly declared
and he had accused his honourable friend (Mr. Grey) of hav-
that they were now come to such a form of government. Nay,
ing made a slip of the tongue, when lie said that by a singular
a more precise term was used than in the amendment of last
state of things they might be said to be attacking the French
year, for, instead of other countries, the message expressly
constitution which ministers were defending. It was no slip
stated Great Britain. Then, if they were come to this state,
of the tongue; nor was there any thing wrong in the reason-
why not declare, said Mr. Fox, that you will treat with them ?
I-Iis honourable friend never otherwise hail defended
Why not act upon your owri declaration ? Why not be steady
the former constitutions of France as being <rood o•overnments.
to the principle which you have pronounced, and declare that
f
relation
or the people of that country, but good in relation to others.
you will treat? Since that declaration was made in the month
Re and every gentleman around him had contended, not that
of June last, there was not a statesman in Europe, except his
the constitutions of France were well framed for the happiness
majesty's ministers, who did not believe that France was in a
of the people of that country, but that they were sufficient for
state capable of maintaining . the relations of peace and amity
all the purposes of good neighbourhood, and of preserving
with other countries. Their conduct to neutral powers had
1?eace and amity with others. They never attempted to de-
demonstrated the fact. Prussia had acted upon the demon-
lend the government of Robespierre. The right honourable
13
96
KING'S MESSAGE RESPECTING
[Dec. 9,
A PEACE WITH FRANCE.
e795 .]
97
gentleman would not do him the injustice to impute to him
relations with foreign powers? The absurdity was too gross
an approbation of that detestable monster. He had always
for argument.
i
But, if their distress was a reason for treating
said, that every one of the successive governments of France
with them, had they not experienced this distress a twelve-
had shewn a disposition and capacity to maintain their
month ago ? Let the House remember the speeches of the
treaties with foreign nations. . He was of the same opinion
right honourable gentleman and his noble friend (Lord Morn-
still; and if any one man should rise in his place, and assert
ington) on the state of their assignats, when they said that
that he saw good reason to believe that the present govern-
depreciation was at the rate of 8o per cent. Aye, but
ment of France was more capable than any of its predeces-
they had not then come to sufficient distress to be solicitous
sors to maintain those relations, he must only say that he
of peace, and now it seems they were come to this disposition.
should very much doubt either his sincerity or his judgment.
And what was of more consequence, it seemed that they had
It had been a darling expression to call the state of France
now a constitution which was quite fit for all the purposes of
for three years past a state of anarchy. It would have been a
neeociation. If ministers depended upon this slender thread,
more correct description to have called it a state of tyranny,
our security was slight indeed. He was not about to praise or
intolerable beyond that of any, perhaps, that ever was expe-
to censure their new constitution ; that he owned could be
rienced in the history of man. To say that he rejoiced in the
properly estimated only by experience. But whether it was
probability of its termination was, he hoped, unnecessary.
good, bad, or indifferent, did not signify a farthin g
the
6
He certainly rejoiced in it as much as he did in the fall of the
present argument. Whether it was calculated to rive happi-
tyranny of the House of Bourbon. But, was that tyranny
DM to the people of France, was none of their concern;
capable of maintaining terms with foreign powers ? Most
it was not with the constitution but with the government of
certainly it was. And if this assertion should be denied, he
France that they had to do. That government they had be-
called upon gentlemen to produce a single instance in which
fore, and had, he would venture to say, in as perfect a shape
they had departed from the strict performance of their en-
-as they had 110W. Nay, if he could trust to an assertion
gagements; a single instance in which any one of the adverse
that had been made in that House but very lately, had more
parties that tore one another to pieces, and in their despicable
perfectly, since it was said, that some of their generals had
and horrid conflicts tore also the bosom of their country, ever
violated the treaty that had been made with Prussia. What
violated the engagements they had made out of France. Did
was the construction to be put upon this conduct? That this
not the Brissotinc party maintain the treaties of their prede-
government, the only one under which the slightest violation
cessors? Did not the execrable tyrant Robespierre himself;
of treaty had been known since the Revolution, was also the
observe with equal fidelity the treaties made by Brissot?
only one with which it was proper for this country to treat.
Were not his successors uniformly steady in their adherence
[It was whispered across the House by ministers, that this
to the external system which had been adopted ? It had been
violation happened before the establishment of the present
observed with truth, that no one period in the French revo-
government.] Before ! said Mr. Fox :—the fact was ex-
lution had been marked by a more sacred regard to the neu-
pressly stated as an argument by the other side of the House,
trality of foreign powers, than the reign of that execrable
that day se'nnight ; that it was totally without foundation he
tyrant Robespierre; and it would not be denied, but that
believed ; he certainly never had head it except in that House
treaties had been made with tyrants as execrable; and con-
upon that occasion. But now they were to have perfect con-
sidering what sort of treaties ministers had made, with whom
fidence in these identical men, because France had now two
they had made them, and what acts of base and abandoned
houses of legislature instead of one ! Their nature Was to be
tyranny they had not discountenanced, it was not worthy the
changed, their insincerity to be obviated, and every objection
manly•character of the British nation to abet them in their
to be at an end, because France had now two houses instead
resistance to a treaty with France.
of one ! There was something so extremely whimsical, and
Having thus shewn, in his mind, the futility of all objections
so e nworthy of statesmen, in this mode of reasoning, that he
to treat on account of the insecurity of treaty, Mr. Fox came-
Ivoeld not stop to reply to it. He did not mean to criticise
to their next argument, that now France was in the greatest
the present French constitution; he certainly thought it bet-
possible distress. Granted. Was that a reason for treating
ter Planned than any of the preceding; -but he could not look.
i
now? Was it because this very stable government was on the
to it with greater confidence than to any of its forerunners.
point of annihilation, that it was capable of 'maintaining the
H
m e
e ca now to speak of the origin of the War, in WWI
1-01,,
98
KING'S MESSAGE RESPECTING
[Dec. 14,
A PEACE WITH PRANCE.
1795'1
99
he would not cease to say, that ministers were the aggressors.
time avowed object of ministers in the war, to destroy the
It was their eternal answer to this charge, that France had
acobin government. 'Was the jacobin government destroyed ?
declared the war. Their incessant recurrence to this feeble
J Vas the government founded on the rights of man at an
subterfuge proceeded from a conscious qualm that the accus,
end ? Had the declaration of the 1 9th of. November 1792,
ation was well founded. In his opinion, even in a case of
been any otherwise abandoned than it had been two years
actual insult, it was the duty of statesmen to attempt to pro•
•.) Why
ago,
had they not then treated before?
? Because they
cure redress by negociation before they recurred to the argu-
had objected to treat expressly with any government founded
ment of war. Had ministers taken this course? The pretexts
on the rights of man. He would not say that the right ho-
were, that the French had threatened to deprive our allies,
nourable gentleman had gone the length of asserting that it
the Dutch, of the free navigation of the Scheldt, and that
would be a bellum ad internecioncm ; he had said there might
•
they had made a declaration, threatening all the world with
be a case of extremity, but he made use of a quotation which
the dangers of fraternity. Grant that these were legitimate
had this effect, that it left an impression of his meaning on
grounds upon which it was the duty of this country to demand
the memory, and the words were not liable to misconstruction.
satisfaction, was it not the duty of ministers to negociate for
His quotation was,
that satisfaction ? The French had a minister at this court.
Why did they not express to that minister the terms upon
—" Potuit (lux plurhna virtus
which they would continue their amity ? In every corre-
Esse, fuit. Toto certatum est corpore regni."
spondence of the sort, it was incumbent on both parties to
Such was the right honourable gentleman's declaration. But
state explicitly what they desired to be done, and what they
now we were come to a government when we might surrender
would do in return. Let gentlemen look at the correspond-
all our former assertions, and safely treat for peace. Had
ence which had been published, and they would see that
we then obtained the objects of the war? The first was cur
there was no declaration on the part of ministers upon what
obligation to defend our ally, the States-General. He had
terms they were disposed to continue their amity. But grant
always lamented the fate of that unhappy people. They
even to government their demand, that the French were the
were entangled in a situation, from which, whoever were
aggressors, and that this was merely a defensive war : then it
conquerors, they could not escape; whoever gained, their
was the nature of a defensive war that it should be pursued
ruin was inevitable. Had we saved our ally? It was the
on the motives of defence, and that every moment should be
boast that we had taken the Cape of Good Hope. Good
seized upon when it might be possible to obtain the security
God ! was this safety for Holland ? We had abandoned their
for which it was undertaken. He appealed to the House and
possessions in Europe to France, while we had marked out
to the country if this had been their conduct. He demanded
their dependencies in the East for our share of the plunder.
whether, after the defeat of Dumourier, when Belgium was
Our protection was like that of our allies toward Poland; we
recovered, and when French Flanders was over-run, a peace
divided it for its safety ; and it was an argument for having
upon the terms of security, and upon such terms as-we had
abandoned all its European possessions to France, that we
not now either reason or right to expect, might not have
had seized, or were about to seize, on all its Asiatic territo-
been obtained ? If the war had been really defensive, if it
ries for ourselves.
had been undertaken only to resist encroachments, terms
He could not help again digressing to one of the.attaeks
ought then to have been offered upon which we might have
which had been made upon himself: -What, it had been
procured reparation, security and indemnity. Terms were
said, would you be so dastardly as to negociate for a peace
offered by the French : Maret was sent here commissioned'to
With France, and leave Holland in their hands ? Now even
offer terms. But they were rejected. Upon what principle?
from this
this attack he was delivered, ministers had agreed to
Not because we were fighting about a limit, about a boun-
ail
become
da stards, and to treat with France, possessed of
dary ; but for that security which could only be obtained by
Holland.
t This they must acknowledge, or agree with him
the destruction of their government. He would not say that
that there was nothing dastardly in the proposition last year.
it was- expressly stated that the ancient monarchy should be re-
He wished to God it were as probable DOW as it was then,
instated, though, by the by, Lord. Hood, in his declaration
that it might be recovered by negociation. He still trusted it
at Toulon, had impressed that opinion upon every part of
wo uld be so. But there were other reasons that now induced
France ; • but both then, e.nd at every time -sinhe, it had been
them to negotiate for peace. The domestic state of this
H 2
100
KING'S MESSAGE RESPECTING
[Dec. 14
A PEACE 'WITH rrtarcer.
let
1795 '1
country was changed. He could not avoid remarking ho*,
nut from the measures we had taken, and were now taking,
`the arguments varied. If they were speaking upon the sedition
tola)
that
r uas
bills, and he were to assert that there were no excesses in the
Peace,
ifl
st e t h however,
now said to be near. Perhaps he
country, that called fir such unconstitutional restraints, he
thought it was near, but he did not think so on account of
should instantly hear a set of pamphlets and hand-bills read,
the message from the throne. He thought so because mi-
to prove that Great Britain was almost in a state of rebellion;
nisters felt the sense of the country to be declared against
but if he - were to demand, why the present was a more fit
the war; because, however they might affect to misrepresent
time than any other to negociate for peace, he should in-
the feeling of the country in their speeches, they felt in their
stantly be answered, because we were happily sale at home
hearts, that there was not one man in the kingdom, the race
against all danger of jacobin principles. If he should say,
of money jobbers, contractors, and interested persons only
that by the increase of our debt, and the growing load of na-
excepted, who was not sick of the war, as well as of the mi-
tional burdens, there was much discontent in the country,
serable pretexts for carrying it on. He thought, therefore,
it would be answered, No such thing ; the example of France
that to fix ministers to the point, they should adopt the
has checked every symptom of discontent with the present
amendment, which contained a much more clear and specific
order of things. Then why pass the abominable bills?
declaration than that contained in the address. He knew •
'Why? it would on the other side be answered, because there
that it was a vulgar opinion, and surely it was the most vulgar
was something so perverse and obstinate in the seditious mul-
of all vulgar opinions, that the proposers of a negociation,
titude, that nothing but depriving us of our constitution
always stood the worst chance in that negociation. He
could make us safe. In this way did they reason. Each
wished to know one instance in which this had ever been the
measure had its own stile of argument ; and it was thought
case. In the present circumstances of Great Britain and
necessary to insult the understanding, as well as to impose
France, he thought the advantage was evidently on the side
chains upon the person.
of the proposers. For in both countries there was an evident
We had failed, then, in Holland ; and we had failed at
desire for peace in the great body of the people; so that it
home. What had we done for the rest of Europe ? What
would be impossible for the executive government of either
for Prussia, for Spain, for Austria ? 'What had been the
country to reject any proposals which might be made, if they
fate of the war in general? His honourable friend had
were not altogether unreasonable. If, therefore, at this mo-
spoken generally of our disasters, with the exception of our
ment, we were to make proposals to France, if they were not
naval exploits. The right honourable gentleman, with that
grossly dishonourable, their committee of directory and
peculiar cast of candour which belonged to himself, bad thrown
council of ancients, would not dare to refuse them, because,
out an insinuation that his honourable friend had forgotten the
by refusing them, they know that they would lose the con-
achievements of his illustrious father. What fortunate im-
fidence and respect of the people.
pression his candid sneer had made upon the House, he would
The right honourable gentleman had not thought it neces-
not inquire. His honourable friend had spoken generally
sary to open his motion for the address, with any exposition
of the disasters of the war, without thinking it necessary to
of the reasons why the message had been brought down at
enumerate the particular instances in which, under the con-
this very remarkable conjuncture. The speech from the
duct of great and gallant officers, even the incapacity of mi-
throne was made on the zyth of October, and then no such
nisters had not deprived the British arms of glory. But
i ntimation was given ; but the right honourable gentleman
swhat great advantages had we obtained in the West Indies,
had said, that a declaration tantamount to the present was
except the glory of Sir Charles Grey's achievements ? Would
made in the king's speech, and that the people from that
any man say that the manner of the loss of Guadaloupe and
speech would have been justified in expecting the present
St. Lucie did not make us lament their previous 'conquest?
message. They must judge of the impression by the effects.
Again, therefore, he asserted, that the war had been dis-
The speech from the throne had produced no sensation on
astrous, inasmuch as we had failed in every object. We had
the funds. What had the message produced ? A rise in the
lost Holland, which was one object of the war ; and we had
funds that day of 5 or 6 per cent. He came therefore now
settled and rivetted discontent on the minds of the people of
to a material part of the present inquiry. Why had not the
.England, not merely by the calamities arising from the war,
right honourable gentleman made known the substance of this
message before, or at least why not stated his reasons in justi,
H 3
102 MESSAGE RESPECTING A PEACE WITH FRANCE. [Dec. 14.
MR. WHITBREAD'S BILL, &C.
795•]
fication of doing it at this most suspicious moment? It had
t k
war
ae a without principle, conduct it with incapacity, and
been the good practice till his time, of closing the loan only
be acquitted of all his misdeeds immediately upon the patching
the day before it was opened. to parliament. If the right ho-
up a peace. He trusted that, with the return of peace, we
nourable gentleman had made his loan in that way, he must
should also have a return of the constitution. He should truly
acknowledge that with the words of this message in lis pocket,
rejoice if, with the blessings of peace, we were also to have
he ought to have made terms materially different. If he had
the next desirable blessing, that of freedom, of which we
this message in his mind, and felt himself bound not to make
were about to be deprived. With regard to some persons in
an open loan, in what predicament did he stand? Messrs. Boyd
the cabinet, with whom he had been long in the habits of
and Co. very handsomely left it to him to propose the terms ;
agreement and friendship, he knew not what effects peace was
then, with the knowledge of this intention, ought he not to
to produce upon them. They had differed upon the prin-
have made a bargain upon the ground of the impression which
ciples of the present war. If peace should put an end to
this message was calculated to make? Were the circumstances
the differences between them, and restore them to their
of the country such, that he was bound to make the bargain a
former habits of thinking and acting, he should undoubtedly
week before he opened it? Perhaps the suspicion was well
see the day with peculiar sensibility. He owned, however,
founded, that his secret contract with the gentlemen, on ac-
that he had very little expectation of such an event. Ile
count of bills coming due on the r oth of December, stipulated
was not so sanguine as to look for such a return. However
that the bargain should be made before that day. But he
that might be, he should ill discharge his duty to his country,
called upon every gentleman who heard him to say, if he
if he did not steadily resolve to do his utmost to bring mini-
could believe it possible, that any change could have hap-
sters to a strict account for all the calamities that this war had
pened so material as to justify the concealment of this intima-
engendered. He sat clown, begging not to be understood as
tion until after be had made his bargain, and then to bring it
opposing the address, or disapproving of the sentiments it con-
forth to swell the bonus to such a height; or, if any circum-
tained. He only wished that it had gone as far as the amend-
stances had arisen to justify the concealment then, and the
ment which had been proposed by his honourable friend.
intimation now, to say why the right honourable gentleman
should not be called upon to state them. A loss had been
Mr. Sheridan's amendment was negatived without a division ;
suffered by the public of not less, on the meanest computation,
after which the original address was agreed to.
than one hundred and fifty thousand pounds. This had been put
into the pockets of persons who talked loudly of their independ-
ence, and of the disinterested support they gave to ministers.
It was not his practice to impute any thing personally corrupt
to the right honourable gentleman, and he did not impute
MR.
to him any thing of the kind now ; but he did think that, in
WHITBREAD'S BILL TO REGULATE THE
V/AGES 02
LABOURERS IN HUSBANDRY.
decency and in -duty, in regard to himself as well as to the
country, he was called upon to explain this extraordinary
transaction. It was a direct robbery upon the public of y or
December 9.
6 per cent. upon the whole loan, if with the knowledge of his
R. WHITBREAD presented to the House a bill ‘ c
intention he made his bargain without a public declaration of
to ex-
..C1 plain and amend so much of the act of the 5th of Elizabeth,
the change that had taken place ; and he must prove that be
intituled, An act containing divers orders for artificers, labourers,
did not know of this change but a week before he ..declared it.
servants of husbandry, and apprentices,' as empowers justices of
The change however was now announced. He trusted the
the peace, at, or within six weeks after, every general quarter
declaration would not have the fate of former declarations.
sessions held at Easter, to regulate the wages of labourers in hus-
b
He should rejoice in the day of peace, come when it would.
andry." The bill was read a first time. On the motion for the
second reading, Mr. Whitbread said, that he had brought forward
-When it did come, he should certainly be thankful ; but he
this bill under the idea that it was possible, by adopting its regula-
Should by no means consider the restoration of peace as su-
tions, to give great relief to a very numerous and useful class of the
perseding the necessity of an inquiry into the origin, principle,
community. The act of Elizabeth empowered justices of the
and conduct of the war. For if this were neglected, it might
peace to fix the maximum of labour. This bill went only to em-
establish a precedent upon which any minister might under-
P ower them to fix the minimum. However, the House might
I3 4
104
MR. WHITBREAD'S BILL TO REGULATE
[Dee. 9,
496.] THE WAGES OF LABOURERS IN HUSBANDRY.
10-
decide with respect to his bill, he trusted at least that the act of
transactions, that this was a view of the subject which would
Elizabeth would be repealed. He should move that the bill be
have great weight. It was not fitting in a free country that
now printed, and read a second time on an early day after the
the great body of the people should depend on the charity of
holidays.
the rich. In the election of members of parliament, all those
Mr. Fox said, that the bill was undoubtedly a bill of great
were strictly excluded from exercising any franchise, with a
delicacy and importance, and with respect to which, he ad-
who had at any time received relief from
mitted that, to a considerable extent, there might exist a
'‘t'leileTpfae;ivslelexceM
pt7ins
aosi't becoming in a country like this, that the
rational difference of opinion. The act of Elizabeth, as his
fgeneral mass of the labouring, part of the community, except-
honourable friend had truly stated, empowered the justices toe
ag those who derived relief from the bounty and generosity
fix the highest price of labour, but it gave them no power to
d individuals, should be excluded from the exercise of their
:fix the lowest. It secured the master from a risk which could
most important privilege as freemen ? He admitted many of
but seldom occur, of being charged exorbitantly for the
the rich to be humane and charitable; but he could not al-
quantity of service ; but it did not authorise the magistrate
low that those who were the most useful and industrious
to protect the poor from the injustice of a griping and ava-
members of society should depend upon a fund so precarious.
ricious employer, who might be disposed to take advantage of
and degrading, as the occasional supplies derived from their
their necessities, and undervalue the rate of their service. If
bounty. If the price of provisions had for two years been
the price of labour was adequate to the support of the poor in
such as to put every poor man under the necessity of applying
ordinary times, though not equal to the accidental high price
for the aid of parochial charity, and if that circumstance con-
of provisions at the present moment, it might be contended,
stituted a positive disqualification with respect to the exercise
that there was less necessity for any new legislative regulation.
of a constitutional right, what, he asked, was the state of a
But, taking the average price of labour for some years past,
country which first compelled every poor man to dependence,
including that period during which the scarcity had operated,
and then reduced him to servitude? If they were to go into
no man could deny that the price of labour was greatly dis-
associations, pledging themselves to use a particular sort of
proportionate to the rate of provisions. That the general
bread, with a view to alleviate the scarcity, it was surely of
price of labour should be adequate to the support of the ge-
more importance that they should associate in order to redress
neral mass of the community was indisputably a right prin-
the more material grievance, and strike at the fundamental
ciple. They all knew that a very extensive tax was exacted
source of the evil. With this view he should be glad, as he
from the country, under the denomination of poor rates, and
had already suggested, to see an association in order to put
that such a tax must be continued. It was understood, that
the price of labour upon a footing adequate to the rate of
to this fund none could apply, but those few to whom, from
provisions. If the regulations of the present bill should not
particular circumstances, their labour might not be suffi-
be adopted, he should be happy that any other legislative
e
ciently productive to secure an adequate support. But he
nactments should be brought forward, in order to afford
relief and protection to the poor.
feared that the reverse was the case ; that the exception was
with respect to the few who derived sufficient means of subsist-
ence from their labour, and that the (Treat mass of the labour-
ing part of the community were under the necessity of apply-
February 12. 1796.
ing to this fund for relief. If the House, as was proposed,
were to form an association, in order to pledge themselves to
Mr. Whitbread moved the second reading of his bill. He was
su
use only a particular sort of bread, with a view to diminish the
pported by Mr. Honeywood, Mr. Lechmere, and Mr. Fox ; and.
o
pressure of the scarcity, ought they not at the same time to
pposed by Mr. Burden, Mr. Buxton, Mr. Vansittart, and Mr. Pitt.
form an association, in order to raise tile price of labour to a
rate proportionate to the price of the articles of subsistence?
Mr. Fox said, it was necessary for him to say a few woxds
With this view, he called upon the House to consider the
to explain the reason of the vote he should give, if there
principle of the bill and its provisions. Be would call upon
should be a division upon the subject. No man was more
a
them also to attend to the subject, in a constitutional view,
gainst the idea of compulsion as to the price of labour than
though he could not hope, from the complection of recent
he was himself. His opinion he had often expressed to be on
the other side. The question now was, not on the general
sir
ICU
mt. GREY'S MOTION
[Feb. 1.5,
1796.]
FOR PEACE WITH FRANCE.
I07
principle, but
that particular state of the law, which rendered
on
cretion of ministers ; but were they worthy of any trust, after be-
some measure necessary to be adopted for the relief of the
ing deceived in their allies in the most material points, and still ex-
labouring poor, while the law, as it stood, was saddled with so
pressing a forwardness to depend on promises so repeatedly broken?
many restrictions. He approved of the bill proposed by his
The French, it was now acknowledged, were in a situation to be
honourable friend, as calculated to correct that which was bad
treated with ; we ought, therefore, no longer to stand aloof.—Mr.
Pitt opposed the motion. He urged the necessity of confidence
in its present operation, and to secure at least to the labourer
in ministers, and observed that, if the House thought this confi-
the means of partial relief. But if the House objected to the
dence could not be safely vested in them, the proper mode was to
measure as improper, if they were of opinion that it was not
address his majesty for their removal. He asserted that the French
the most judicious or desirable that might be applied, under
bad almost exhausted their means of carrying on the war; and
the circumstances of the case, he hoped that they would
said that, since his majesty's message had been delivered, ministry
all
o to the root of the evil, and provide some remedy adequate
had taken every measure, consistent with the interests of the coun-
try, to accomplish the object of' it. The point to be considered
to the extent of the grievance. If, therefore, they should give
a negative to the second reading of the bill, he should con-
was the probability of obtaining just and honourable terms ; but
such terms must be very different from those which the public
sider that by so doing they pledged themselves to take the
declarations of the French had for a long time past indicated.
ct into their early and most serious consideration. And
subje
however eligible the proposition of his honourable friend
'Mr. Fox rose and said :— Notwithstandine• Sir, the mode
might be, he was convinced that if what he had brought for-
of arguing which the right honourable gentleman has adopted
ward should induce the House to go into a full examination
this day, in introducing matter somewhat irrelevant to the
of the subject, and to provide a remedy commensurate to the
question at issue, I intend to confine myself almost entirely to
evil, he would not only have accomplished his own benevci:.
the subject of my honourable friend's proposition. The House
lent intentions, but would have done a much greater service
will pardon me, however, if' I make a few preliminary obser-
to the country, than even if the bill which he had now brought
vations upon the manner in which the right honourable gen-
forward were adopted.
tleman commenced his speech. Far be it from me to dis-
The motion for the second reading of the bill was negatived.
courage any inclination that may be shewn to negotiation, or
in any degree to retard the advance to peace; for whether the
season for negociation be advantageous, when compared with
those which have occurred at periods which are past, it is cer-
tainly advantageous, when compared with any that may he
expected in future, however numerous our victories, or how-
MR. GREY'S MOTION FOR PEACE WITH FRANCE.
ever unprecedented our success. I cannot, however, refrain from
saying a word or two upon the past, not with a view to ex-
February 15.
aggerate the difficulties of the present, but merely in my own
vindication, for having proposed pacific measures, when they
r HIS day Mr. Grey moved, " That an humble address be pre-
were refused to be adopted. Will it be said, that when the
sented to his majesty, stating, that it is the desire of this House,
Low Countries are in the hands of the enemy, when Holland
that his majesty may graciously be pleased to take such steps
is become a province of Prance, and when they are in pos-
as to his royal wisdom shall appear most proper, for commu-
session of St. Lucie and St. Domingo, that we are in a situ-
nicating directly to the executive government of the French repub-
ation in which more honourable terms of peace may be
lic, his majesty's readiness to meet any disposition to negociation
ex
on the part of that government, with an earnest desire to give it
pected, than when they were driven out of the Dutch
pr
the fullest and speediest effect." He observed, that contrary to
ovinces; when they were routed in every battle in Flan-
de
general expectation, the ministry, in lieu of a negociation for peace,
rs ; when they were compelled to retreat within the limits
were making preparations for a continuance of the war. But with
of their own territory; when Valenciennes was taken ; when a
con
what well-grounded hope of success could they persist in this un-
siderable impression was made upon them by the emperor
fortunate system? There was no confidence nor unity of views in
in the north, and by Spain upon the south ; in short, when
the remaining parts of the coalition ; and yet this country WaS to
they did not hold an inch of ground without the boundaries
bear the weight of this pretended alliance in favour of the common
of Old France ? Then we were told, that it would be hu-
interest of Europe. The public was exhorted to rely on the
1
rob
MR. GREY'S MOTION
[Feb. Is.
796.]
FOR PEACE WITH FRANCE.
109
miliating for the country to offer terms of peace, and that we
withstand ing all its pacific complection, I was sorry to hear,
should wait till the misfbrtunes of our foes should lay them
an d which to me appeared to indicate, that it is his opinion,
prostrate at our feet.
that the present government of France has not arrived at
When I proposed a pacification in the beginning of tia,
that crisis which was particularly described in his majesty's
year 1794, I was told, that the late campaian had exhibited a
speech. It was this, that the French government were per-
''
series of triumphs more brilliant than any which the annals of
haps disposed to grant to this country, as a compensation
the country could boast. Last year a negociation was moved
for all the losses which it has sustained from . the war — the
for, before Holland was totally lost, the recovery of which was
honour of its fraternization. But, does the French govern-
assigned as a principal cause of the war; and then it was
ment persevere in that system now ? I hope and trust it does
said, that any proposal on our part would be degrading to the
not. And if it does not, why rake up the recollection of for-
honour of the country. I hope, however, that he who thinks
mer wrongs, and renew the causes of discord which no longer
it possible to propose an honourable ncgociation now, will no
exist? The subject, however, chiefly depends upon a question
longer accuse us of having entertained a wish to humiliate
of time. On the 8th of December, a message was sent down
the country, by advising the government to offer terms of
. from his majesty, stating, that the affairs of France had ar-
peace, under circumstances in which it was infinitely more
rived at such a crisis, as to render negociation possible. On •
advantageously situated. My argument at present, does not
the 29th of October, in his majesty's speech, there was a para-
turn upon the propriety of proposals for peace coming
graph upon the subject, the meaning of which appeared to me
from one country more than from another, but upon the
to be by no means clear. We were told, however, that it was
seasonableness of the time. I perfectly agree with the right
afterwards explained, and that the subsequent message was
honourable gentleman, that the present is the most proper
nothing more than the natural consequence of the king's
season which may well occur, and in the faith that he is in-
speech. If, then, the ideas conveyed by the message were hy-
clined to improve it, I have the less disposition to press the
pothetically the opinion of the minister, who was certainly to
errors of the past. But here a question occurs — Who shall
be considered as a principal assistant in framing the speech,
make the first step towards peace ? In all wars, I think, this
we are to trace the measures of government back to the 29th
is a point of little importance ; and in this war, I think it
of October. But even supposing that the 8th of December
of less importance than almost in any other. When hos-
was the earliest time that the king's cabinet ministers formed
tilities commenced between the countries, the French held it
any definitive opinions upon the subject, when we take into
out as a principle, that they were determined to propagate
consideration, not only the lapse of time, but the very extraor-
their government all over Europe. How long they perse-
dinary circumstances attending that lapse of time, it is natural
vered in maintaining this absurd principle, it is of little con-
to ask, did it require two months (or if we date it from the
sequence now to decide. Suffice it to say, that it afforded a
29th October, did it require three months,) to come to an un-
d
real or ostensible ground of hostilities, and that the principle
erstanding with our allies; or rather, was it not reasonable
has been formally renounced in an official declaration, ab-
to expect that something might have been done in that time?
g all interference in the internal government of any coun-
The expectation was the more reasonable, when we consider
jurin
try. This is an example which we ought to follow; and
what those two months were. They were not two months in
when the French have announced themselves at amity with
the heat of a campaign — they were not only in a season, when
the English constitution, the English government ought to
God and nature united to create an armistice, but when an
ar
abandon every idea •of intermeddling in the affairs of France,
mistice had actually taken place — they were not during
or of altering any form of government which they may think
the sitting of the parliament, (though I am not one of those
proper to adopt. Perhaps I may be told, that even if terms
who consider the sitting of parliament as an impediment to
ne
of peace be proposed by this country, they may be rejected by
gotiation,) but during a parliamentary recess, prolonged,
the French, and that this rejection may render it necessary
as the friends of the minister gave out, for the purpose of leav-
nrg
for us to interfere in the settlement of their form of govern-
unshackled to carry on the negociation. When these
•
circu
ment. But if we do not formally publish the declaration, we
mstances are considered I wish to know why no steps
may at least announce our readiness to make it. And even
Lav e been taken ?
then we do not go so far as they have done.
I must here advert to a passage in the right honourable
gentl
There was a word in the minister's speech; which, not-
eman's speech, in which he represented it as having
15eet1 the policy of France to divide the allies, and when she
96.1
FOR PEACE WITH FRANCE.
I II
110
MIL. GREY'S 31OTION
[Feb. 1
*as on the eve of sinking beneath their combined pressure, to
The right honourable gentleman has given us to understand
detach some of them from the confederacy. Perhaps I am
something in his speech. It is material to know what be
not so well acquainted with the circumstances of the war as
roily intends to convey, to understand how much, and the
the right honourable gentleman, or at this moment I mad=
• precise value of what lie has advanced. I understand him to
not have such a lively recollection of the details of its history ;
have said, and I beg to be corrected if I am mistaken, that
but I certainly do not remember any peculiar difficulties under
measures have been already taken by ministers, with a view
which the enemy had the misfortune to labour, at the particu-
to avail themselves of whatever circumstances may occur fa-
lar conjuncture when our allies seceded from the treaty. I do
vourable, either to making or receiving overtures . of peace
not recollect that France was in circumstances of partite
with France. I certainly do not mean to quibble upon words,
difficulty, when. the King of Prussia renounced the c n
and therefore it cannot be supposed that lie can mean a con-
of the allies. I do not recollect that France was in a situation
tinuance of the war to be one of those measures which he
of unusual hardship when she concluded a peace with Sp:•
hopes are introductory to negociation. If it be understood,
Nor do I recollect that the Elector of Hanover and the
since the message of the 8th of December, he has endea-
that
German princes were exulting in the abundance of their v ic-
voured, by means of communication with our allies, to learn
tories when they commenced a negociation. On the contrary,
the grounds on which they wish. to negociate, this certainly is
I think I have heard that Spain sued for peace, not when
something ; but it is an instance of tardiness for which it is
Spain was in the unimpaired possession of her territory, but
difficult to account. And even admitting these steps to have
when the principal provinces of the empire were in the hands
been taken, it still remains a question of serious urgency,
of the French. Nor from any information which I have re-
whether the motion of my honourable friend ought to be
ceived upon the subject, can I pay such a compliment to the
agreed to by, the House ? That the manifestation of a sincere
King of Prussia and the princes of Germany, as to say, that
desire to negociate would in this country produce an effect
they offered terms of peace to the enemy when they were in:
highly popular, is a fact not to be disputed. To the rest of
the career of conquest, and the zenith of their glory. I con-
Europe such an inclination would be no less grateful; and I
will put it to the judgment of the House, if they really think
fess I cannot see (a. the professions of the right honourable
gentlemen be true) what renders an explanation of the pro-
the country will make worse terms of peace with France, be-
ceediogs of the government of this country a subject of so
cause the French government know our desire for peace to be
much delicacy in the present war. If he admits that he h
sincere .? Is it not to be feared, on the other hand, that the
engaged in a clandestine negociation, of the benefit of which
mutual alienation of affection, and the mutual distrust which
he means to deprive our allies, and of which, of course, he
have subsisted between the countries, will create a more se-
would wish to keep them ignorant, then I conceive some mo-
rious difficulty with respect to the success of any negociation,
9
tive for his conduct, and I am ready on such a supposition to
than even the terms that may be proposed? In former
allow his argument, if not honourable, to be at least logi-
wars, we have found that the obstructions to pacification arose
cal. But if, as lie declares, he is really acting in concert with
more from the temper of the adverse countries, than the spe-
our allies, where would be the harm, if he were to lay all the
cific terms which were brought upon the tapis. In the war of
papers which have passed upon the subject before the House?
the succession, which, without exception, was the most glo-
And here I cannot refrain from making one observation on
rious of any that this country was ever engaged in, is there a
the difference of situation, in which we have stood with
Whig at this day so bigotted as not to believe that the con-
respect*
f
to our allies in the course of this contest. I cannot help re-
erences of Gertruydenburg might have led to peace, had
membering a glaring defect which was pointed out last year,
they been properly conducted, and that the prolongation of
in the terms of the loan which was then voted to the emperor.
the war arose from unextinguishable jealousy, and unyielding
ri
It was then objected, that we did not bind him to persevere
valship ? I am not so sanguine as to expect that no diffi-
in the prosecution of the war longer than he thought fit. The
c ulty will arise in negociation about terms. I wish to God
answer was, if we bind the emperor to prosecute the war, we
that the situation of the country were such as to afford any
re
must ourselves come under the same restriction. And now
asonable ground for such an expectation. But what I
we are told, we cannot make peace, except in concert with our
contend for is this, that such has been the asperity displayed
allies. I mention this merely to chew the different represen-
on both sides, in the course of the contest, that • the temper
tations that are given of matters according td the pressure of
of the governments will occasion a difficulty no less formi-
different arguments.
FOR PEACE WITH FRANCE.
/ 796.]
I 12
MR. GREY ' S MOTION
[Feb. Is,
state secrets, and parliamentary confidence, have always been
cable, than any that may occur in the discussion of terms —
held forth as a shield for the measures of the servants of the
a difficulty which I am sorry to say the concluding part of the
crown; fortunately for the people, however, their consti-
right honourable gentleman's speech was by no means calcu-
tuents have not been always inclined to pay- that attention to
lated to remove. It may be said, that the language held by
them, which to superficial observers they may seem to claim.
the directory was insolent in the extreme. But because inso-
As to the state paper to which the right honourable gentleman
lent language is held by the directory of France, is that a
referred, and which he said was published at Hamburg'', and
reason why the government of England should assume the
was industriously circulated in this country, I have not seen
same tone of insolence? Were we to adopt conciliatory Ian-
it, and therefore am not qualified to. reason upon it. But
nuarie the effect would be immediate upon the temper of the
b
allowing the sentiments of the directory on the subject of
French government in softening asperity, and silencing abuse.
peace, to be as wild, fanciful, and extravagant as it is possi-
And if such would be the effect in France, what might not be
ble for them to be, that is no reason why these sentiments
expected here?
ought to deter us from offering terms of peace. The time in
It was stated by the right honourable gentleman that the
which we live„ is a time in which government must pay some
motion of my honourable friend, if agreed to by the House,
• attention to the opinion of the people whom they are ap-
would so cramp, fetter, and humiliate government, that it
pointed to govern. Were a disposition for peace, on the
would be impossible to negotiate with honour. This is an
part of the government, discovered to the people of England,
objection which has been stated so often in the course of the
it would diffuse general happiness over the kingdom; and if
war, that it has entirely lost its force. When on a former
it was made known to France, I am convinced that her con-
occasion it was proposed to declare the government of France
cessions would be as ample as we could wish. As to the po-
in a negociablc situation, the 'proposition was rejected with
pular opinion in this country, it has for some time been
scorn, and now this very declaration has been made by minis-
evidently against the war; and I say it to the credit of minis-
ters, and we have experienced no inconvenience from it. As
ters, that they have sacrificed something to the constitution
to the prerogative of the crown of making peace when and how
of the country, in permitting the opinion of the people re-
his majesty pleases, no man doubts of it ; but no man, on the
specting the war, to have some weight in regulating their
other hand, will doubt of the prerogative of the Commons of
conduct. If the demands of France are exorbitant, let -us
England, to advise his majesty, both as to the time and the
meet them with reasonable overtures on our part, and mode-
terms of pacification. The present is not a matter of right,
ration will have a greater effect than the most strenuous re-
but a matter of discretion. I have put a case before to the
sistance, in relaxing their exertions. I know reason has too
House, which is so appropriate to the present circumstances
little to do in the government of the world, and that justice
of the country, that I may be allowed to quote it again — the:
and moderation must often yield to power and lawless might.
case of the American war. In the course of that war, We
This has been unhappily exemplified in the fate of Poland.
heard from a noble lord, that it was the height of indiscretion
Still, however, it is no light matter in national as well as pri-
in parliament, to interfere with the prerogative of the king m
vate concerns to have reason on our side. I know I have
making peace. Parliament wisely rejected the noble lord's
been sometimes thought absurd, when I argued, that honour
argument, and not only declared that America was in a ne-
was the only just cause of war; but I still believe, and there
gociable situation, and that the states should be acknowledged
has been nothing in late events to contradict the opinion,
as independent, but they even declared that no offensive war
that reason and justice in any cause are the most powerful
should be carried on against America ; and this very decla-
allies. If this be the case, let us manifest to France, to
ration enabled the right honourable .gentleman and his asso-
Europe, and to the world, a spirit of moderation ; and let us
ciates at that time to conclude a. peace, the terms of which
this night address his majesty to commence a
were certainly not such as the country, in my opinion,
g
ne Yociation
of
with the republic of France. I say the republic of France ;
bad reason to expect from its circumstances at the time, but
for there is more in names than one would sometimes be apt
which redounded much to his credit, when compared with
to imagine. Ministers have talked of " the French rulers,"
the misfortunes to which it had formerly been subjected.
of" persons exercising the government of France," &c. If
There are certain bugbears which have always been held
they are serious in their intentions of making peace, they
out by ministers to parliament, and which have been disposed
toast hold a
b
lannuarie more explicit. They have sent an am-
of according to its good sense at the time. The pretences of
VOL. yr.
I 14
R. GREY'S MOTION
[Feb. Is,
FOR PEACE WITH - FRANCE.
1 796.]
I i '
bassador (Lord Macartney) to the court of Louis XVIII.
Boning, which, after telling me of the increased national debt,
Do they imagine, after such an insult to the present govern.
the load of taxes, and the consequent misery entailed upon the
ment of France, that a negotiation can be entered upon with-
desires me to look to the ruined finances of France
people;
out a previous and direct acknowledgement? That govern..
for comfort, which are quickly hurrying that power to the
ment has been recognised in various acts, both by us and our
precipice of destruction. So that, in proportion as the enemy
allies; in the exchange of prisoners, the release of the prin..
retreats from the common abyss which would swallow up
cess royal, &c. There is no injury, therefore, but on the
both, we are encouraged to he under no apprehension for
contrary much advantage to be derived from a more full and
our
uir t
I will allow, that the French may be in
explicit recognition. At the peace of Utrecht, the negotia-
ndisstay
rfeests .than the people of this country are at this
tion and conferences at Gurtruydenberg were inj ured by
o;:but to me it appears to be very poor comfort to the
Louis XIV. employing an ambassador in the interest of the
afflicted to hear, that their enemies will fall a little before
pretender : why, then, the Count D'Artois should now be so
them. Even supposing France to come and bow at our feet,
much countenanced by government as ambassador from an
supposing that Louis XVIII. were to be proclaimed rightful
unfortunate prince, I am at a loss to conceive. Is it not
heir of the crown, and supposing that she were tamely to
highly necessary, then, to make an explicit declaration, that
surrender all the conquests she has made, it would be no re-
we are really desirous of a suitable and honourable peace.
compence for the loss that we have already sustained. Ac-
Let us, however, come to the point. Ministers say, all this is
cording tot he statement of the right honourable gentleman,
very good, if you let us do it; but if the House of Commons
the territorial rental of the kingdom does not exceed twenty-
suggest it, it. is very wrong. Do they think, however, that
five millions annually. The taxes, if they turn out as pro-
there is a cabinet in Europe, or even that there is a man
ductive as they have been estimated, will amount to twenty-
who reads a newspaper, who believes, if the motion of my
one millions, which with the poor rates, will make a sum
honourable friend were to be carried this evening, that it was
equal to the whole landed rental. Now, though I am not
forced upon administration ? Nay, would he not rather
one of those, who with a late petitioner, (Sir Francis Blake,
think (if in decency I may be allowed to say so), that minis-
think that land pays all the taxes, I think the weight of them
ters had made the House of Commons adopt the motion ?
lies upon the land, which cannot exist very easily under a
Allowing the right honourable gentleman all the confidence
burden of twenty shillings in the pound. I am told that
•which he can desire, as much even as his right honourable
things are worse in France ; but, will any man be bold
friend:. beside him (Mr. Dundas) reposes in him, nothing
enough not to wish for peace, because the finances of France
could tend more to evince the confidence of the House in ad-
may be in a state still more deranged than ours ? Rather
ministration, than the motion that has been made this evening.
than continue the war for another campaign, independent of
Even if it be the etiquette of the minister, that all declara-
the moral reasons against its prolongation, I would not un-
tions of this nature shall originate in the crown, (an etiquette
questionably give up our honour, our dignity, or our liberty,
which I do not understand,) I would not put a declaration of
which, till I die, I trust I shall never fail to assert; but I
the crown in comparison; in point of authenticity, with that
would give up all questions of etiquette and accommodation,
which the present motion, if carried, would convey. Let
and in fact every thing short of what most nearly concerns our
him recollect that every moment of delay is a moment of
character. Let it not be understood that I wish for a dis-
danger, and therefore let him not procrastinate in making
honourable peace, or peace on any other terms than those
the ''declaration. He may, perhaps, have -intended the speed
which are suitable to the interests, and consistent with the
of this evening to serve the purpose of a declaration : but
dignity of the country ; but I am sanguine enough to think,
he cannot but know the wide and immeasurable differenCe
that even now this country may have fair and honourable
between a speech which may or may not go abroad in an sk
• terms of peace. The governors of France dare not refuse any
citrate manner, and a resolution inserted in the votes of the
reasonable terms which we may oiler; if they do, others will
House of Commons.
then be appointed in their place, who will dare to accept of
I shall not say one word on the relative situation of Great
them, When peace shall be proposed, however, I hope and
Britain. I am not one of those who are inclined to think
trust that it will not be proposed on the dividing system, and
despondingly of the situation of the cOuntry. But if all
that this country will never give its sanction to any such trans-
thing .could make me despair, it would be fhatspecies • of ree'
action as the infamous partition of Poland. Dearly as I love
x 2
ABOLITION OF THE SLAVE TRADE.
[Feb. 8.
1796.]
ABOLITION OP THE SLAVE TRADE,
peace, exclaimed Mr. Fox, and anxiously as I wish for it,
that such a peace may never prevail, I most heartily pray.
likely to have more weight than mine, that I will not venture
I hope, when peace shall arrive, that the interests of huma-
take from the impression of any thing he has said. I must ;
to
nity as well as of kings, and that of every particular state
however, take notice of one assertion of the honourable
will be consulted, and that tranquillity will be re-established
baronet, (Sir William Young,) that there were many matters
on the broad basis of justice, in answer to the prayers of
cleared up with respect to the characters of the planters.
mankind, who are now fatigued with war, slaughter, and
Tlie honourable baronet will give me leave to say, that it is
not to those who live among slaves, that I would naturally look
devastation.
for examples of humanity. To the charges which have been
The House divided on Mr. Grey's motion :
brought of the cruel treatment of slaves, I grant there may
he many honourable exceptions. But when I am desired to
Tellers.
Tellers.
Mr. Grey
Mr. Steele
, Q
look for examples of the most exalted humanity and benevo-
YEAS' Mr. Whitbread 50.—Nots {Mr. Adams j 9'
lence, to those men who framed the barbarous laws of
Jamaica; when I am referred, as a model of mildness and
• mercy, to the conduct of the men concerned in carrying those
laws into execution, I must hesitate a little. What, Sir, •
must be my feelings, when I read of laws by which men are
condemned to be exposed in cages to the burning influence of
ABOLITION OP THE SLAVE TRADE.
the sun; and when I learn that such laws have actually been
18.
carried into effect ! From the perusal of such facts I must
February
necessarily recoil, though, upon the whole, I am not apt to
believe that the planters are distinguished by any particular
THIS day Mr. Wilberforce moved, "That leave be given to
bring in a bill for the abolition of the slave trade, at a time
inhumanity in the exercise of a power, with which, I contend,
to he limited ;" and then proposed that the said motion be referred
no man ought to be entrusted.
to the consideration of a committee of the whole House. The
I must remind gentlemen, that at present the question is
motion was supported with much eloquence and ardour by Mr.
not emancipation, but abolition. How far the argument of
Fox, Mr. Pitt, Mr. W. Smith, Mr. Courtcnay ; and opposed
my honourable friend (Mr. Seijeant Adair) might go to the
by General Tarleton, who moved the other orders of the day,
point of emancipation it cannot be now necessary to discuss.
Mr. Jenkinson, Sir William Young, and Mr. Secretary Dundas.
The question is, Whether we will suffer a horrible injustice
to be carried on under the sanction of our laws? The question
Mr. Fox said : —The sentiment of opposition, Sir, to this
is not one that interferes with the local jurisdiction of the
trade is one, which if it has once got possession of the breast
colonies; it is, whether we shall exert a right, which un-
of an honest man, it is impossible that any mode of debating
doubtedly we possess, to determine with respect to the con-
or of resisting it should add to the impression which must
tinuance of a trade, which depends on ourselves ? The
already be made on his mind. But if it were possible that
confusion in this instance has arisen from the idea, that if the•
any mode of resistance to the question of abolition could have
abolition takes place, it must necessarily be followed by the
the effect of inspiring me with a greater degree of earnestness,
em ancipation. I hope and trust that it will; but this point I
•than I -already feel on the subject, it would be that which has
leave for the decision of the proper legislature, with whose
been attempted by the right honourable gentleman who spoke
province I have no wish to interfere. But we are told, that
last (Mr. Dundas). I confess, that I am not a little indignant
ye ought not to join with the negroes against their masters.
at the mode in which he has treated the subject. The honour
Undoubtedly it would to us be matter of greater satisfaction,
of the House, the honour of the legislature, and. a regard to
if we could in this business obtain the concurrence of all the
the principles of the constitution, make me feel warm upon
Planters, But how does this argument agree with the other
the occasion. As for the general subject, it has been already
statement of the right honourable gentleman, that by aaree-
so repeatedly discussed, that it cannot be necessary for me
in,a to the abolition we shall afford an argument to Victor
again to bring it before the view of the House. It has been
fugues, who will be enabled to say, " The French con-
this night so ably handled by the right honourable the chan-
vention liberates slaves, the British parliament takes no care
cellor of the. exchequer, whose opinion with ,this House
4f them ; it abolishes, indeed, the traffic in slaves, but leaves-
r3
8
ABOLITION OF THE SLAVE TRADE.
[Feb. 18'
ABOLITION OF THt SLAVE TRADE.
119
1796.]
to their fate those, who are already in bondage?" Indeed, I
should flinch from the proceeding, and abandon it, as it
they
do not see how this argument can possibly apply, except I
re, to silent contempt. Undoubtedly, every branch of the-
were to conceive, that the right honourable gentleman was
legislature has a right to expect from the others, either agree-
arguing for the emancipation. I think it is net necessary to
ment or dissent to any measure, which it may choose to bring
employ more than one argument with respect to the character
forward. And it is well known, that if this House takes the
of the House, "Did you not, four years ago, pledge your-
business to the House of Peers; as it ought, it never will
selves at this time, to abolish the detestable traffic in human
experience such mortifying neglect, or such contemptuous
flesh ?" The honourable baronet says, that the House then
silence. The right honourable gentleman will not deny that
acted from the opinion expressed in the numerous petitions,
if a majority of this House cordially concur as to the principle
which were received from different parts of the country.
of the abolition, and agree as to the necessity of carrying it
What, then, would you have it go abroad, that the House
into effect with the smallest delay, the House of Lords will
supposed it right to act from the opinion of the public, in
also concur in the propriety of taking some immediate steps
order to ensure a little popularity, and promote their petty
for the purpose. But if the House of Commons never are
interests at elections, and the moment that the pressure of
in earnest in the business, it is in vain that they carry their
that opinion is withdrawn, conceive themselves to he justified
resolution to the House of Lords. That House will see
in renouncing the pledge which they had solemnly adopted ?
through the pretext, they will second the policy, and will
And, what is the period at which you choose to hold up the
suppose, that by such neglect and delay, which amount, in
House in this light ? — after the passing of the two bills
fact, to rejection, they better comply with the wishes of the
which have thrown difficulties in the way of expressing the
House of Commons, as to the real state of the question,
public opinion. Is it at such a period you think proper to
than by giving it the most cordial reception, and the most
hold out that you are so much inclined to favour the cause of
diligent attention. It is necessary for the honour of the House,
slavery, in opposition to truth, justice, and humanity, that
that this reproach should not attach. Iii order to vindicate
though you formerly truckled to popular opinion, you now
the dignity of their character, anal the consistency of their
come forward in your genuine colours, and, in violation of
proceedings, it is incumbent upon them to shew, by adopting
the most solemn and deliberate pledge, announce yourselves
the motion of the honourable gentleman,
entleman, that if the reSo-
the advocates and supporters of slavery ? If any thing can
lution which they some years since passed for the abolition of
add to the flagrancy of the case, it is the conduct which has
the slave trade be rejected, it is the limit, not of the Commons,.
been adopted by the House of Lords since this question came
but of some other part of the legislature.
before them. I suppose that it is not regular, in this place,
But it has been said, that if you abolish the trade, other
to arraign the conduct of the House of Lords, and there-
powers will take it up. This is an argument which cannot at
fore I will not arraign it. But there is one ground suggested
all affect the line of conduct which we are bound to pursue.
by the right honourable gentleman, on which I can, con-
The question is, whether you have not the power of com-
sistently with order, advert to their conduct. The right ho-
pletely abolishing it in your own colonies ? Unquestionably
nourable gentleman said, that the House of Lords had as
You have, notwithstanding what has been urged, that they
much right to their opinion, as this House has to theirs.
will still continue to be supplied from other powers. You
. Now let me state a case. If, after a long and laborious in-
may certainly as easily put a stop to any contraband trade of
vestigation, on a point deeply affecting the honour of the
this sort, as to the trade which was formerly carried on of
national character, and the general interests of humanity,
importing provisions from America. There is no vigour of
their lordships had communicated to us the result of their
means, or language of authority, which you ought not to
deliberations, involving an issue of the most pressing urgency,
employ for that object. This country ought to threaten with
,
and of the greatest practical importance, and had called upon
ind
i
ependence every colony which, after the in
terdiction of
us for our decision ; and if we, after four years, had come to
the legislature, should still persevere to carry on this infamous
no resolution, and taken no notice of such communication, I
traffic. But it is farther said, that even if the trade were
have no hesitation to say, that in such a case we should have
abolished by us, the- interests of humanity would not be be-
betrayed our trust, and have had no right to sit as a branch
nefited, and that it would be carried on with circumstances
of the legislature. What chiefly appears extraordinary is,
of still greater cruelty and oppression. Upon the same prin
that the Lords should take no step at all in the'business; that
ciple might we justify every crime. It might be alleged, that
1 4
124
ABOLITION OP TAE SLAVE TRADE.
[Feb. 18.
/796.)
ABOLITION OF THE SLAVE TRADE.
121
crimes must be committed in society, and that therefore we
we shall conceive it to be a point of honour to throw a gloss
will anticipate the criminal purpose, in order to prevent its
over the crimes of our ancestors, v bile we are led from a
being perpetrated with more wanton outrage, or determined
sense of duty to their manes, to copy them in our own prac-
ferocity. By this reasoning the robber might defend his
tice, then truly the prediction of the poet will be fulfilled
occupation of plunder; he might say, "It is an advantage to
" }Etas Parentum, pejor axis tulit
myself, and I exercise it with less injury to others, than
Nos nequiores, mox daturos
more hardened or savage offenders." The same argument
Progeniem vitiosiorem."
might be brought to extenuate the crime of murder ; it might
be alleged, that it was less reprehensible, because it was ac-
It was amusing enough, however, to hear the right honour-
companied with fewer circumstances of excrutiating torture,
able gentleman talk of this pious veneration for the memories
or persevering malice.
of our ancestors, this charitable covering for their failings,
The right honourable gentleman treated as a figure of
and deprecate all harshness of obloquy, and general terms of
rhetoric, the expression, " 6 to drive the shame of this iniqui-
condemnation as applied to the slave trade, which he had
tous traffic from ourselves." A figure of rhetoric ! Good God !
himself previously admitted to be inconsistent with justice and,
can any appeal be more forcible and impressive, more directly
humanity. After this admission, it might have been supposed
practicable, more powerfully urgent ? Is it nothing to drive
that few epithets could have been added of more severe
from ourselves the shame of such a traffic, at a period, too,
obloquy, or more general condemnation. The right honour-
when great revolutions have seemed, in future, to demand a
able gentleman objected that the trade ought not to be
more intimate connection between politics and morals; when
abolished immediately, and instanced Grenada, which was
nations affect to hold out the principles of eternal justice, as
by no means in a state ripe for the abolition, and would re-
the basis of their conduct, and to establish a character for
quire for that purpose a period as long as had been granted
something better than the artifices of intrigue, or the re-
from the date of the former resolution. 'That was a point
sources of their power ? Is it nothing to wipe away the guilt
which would come regularly to be discussed in the committee,
and the stain of a traffic which the right honourable gentle-
and there, if it should be found expedient, the period of
man has himself admitted to be inconsistent with humanity
the abolition might be fixed for the year 1799. As to the
and justice? If the House of Commons still mean to per-
plan of the right honourable gentleman to effect the abolition
severe in the trade, for Heaven's sake let them, at least, act
by calculations with respect to the'ages of the negroes im-
fairly and manfully. Let them not use a timid caution, or
ported, I must remark, that those who think it impossible at
skulk behind the shameful negligence of others. Let them
once to abolish the trade, and yet conceive that the object
boldly and openly declare, that after they have confessed the
may be effected by such regulations as these, strain at small
trade to be cruel and unjust, they still mean to carry it on to
difficulties, and swallow large ones. It has been stated, that
an unlimited extent.
it would be desirable for us to proceed with the concurrence
But the right honourable gentleman has alleged as a reason
of the gentlemen interested : experience, however, has shewn
why we ought to give some quarter to this trade, the respect
that we cannot hope to obtain it. We do not pretend to
which we owe to our forefathers. We ought not, forsooth,
legislate for them on the point of emancipation, nor ought
to load their memories with all that accumulation of guilt
we, so far as relates to the abolition, to suffer them to legis-
which is charged upon this traffic, or to brand with such harsh
late for us. The question is, whether the House, by its pre-
epithets a practice which they encouraged by their example.
sent decision, shall sp ew itself to have been hypocritical or
Reverence for their characters, and regard to their manes
honourable in its former declaration. It is even of more
ought to sink the consideration of injustice, and extenuate
Importance. It is whether the nation, after pretending to
the horror of cruelty. The tendency of mankind to dege-
• spend oceans of blood and millions of money, in the cause of
neracy has been a common topic of declamation among
:religion, social order, and humanity, shall continue to carry
moralists and poets. If the complaint be well founded, we
on this shameful and unprincipled traffic, and by a conduct
s0 i
ought at least, by getting rid as much as possible of the
nconsistent with its professions, so injurious to its honour,
i
vices of our ancestors, to endeavour to compensate for the
ncur the charge of the vilest simulation, or the most har-
particulars in which we fall short of their virtues. But if
dened effrontery. It is surel y a point of no small importance,
W
antiquity shall be found to sanctify injustice, 'and reverence
hether, under these circumstances, the legislature shall
for former times to diminish the detestation of cruelty --
I 22.
ABOLITION OF THE SLAVE TRADE.
[Feb. IS,
1 7966.)
ABOLITION OF THE SLAVE TRADE.
I 2 3
permit, (and to permit is in some cases to enjoin,) the Con.k.',
rrespon d with the justice and humanity of our cause, and
co
tinuance of a trade, which, after a long and laborious in-
' let us at least prove that we shall not be wanting to vindicate
vestigation, they have pronounced to be inconsistent with,
the honour of our character and the consistency of our
humanity and jiistice.
But the honourable baronet has discovered a new reason
why. we should not .agree to the abolition. He has said,
prorrcheeeIliilOgs.
use divided on General Tarleton's motion, " That the
that we must look to an indemnity for the expellee we have
other orders of the day be now read."
incurred in the prosecution of the present war. And where
Tellers.
Tellers..
arc we to look for •it? In the \\Vest Indies. So that we shall
f Gen. Tarletonl
1+"s
1
Sir
6^.
NOES 1 Mr' Ryder
1+"s'r W. Young /
want fresh cargoes of slaves, in order to cultivate
ng
- Mr. Rob. Smith 93*
our new
_
territorial acquisitions, and so to render them productive as
So it passed in the negative, after which Mr. Wilberforce's
motion for leave to bring in a bill for the abolition of the slave
to constitute an adequate indemnity. Consequently, it turns
trade, at a time to be limited, was agreed to.
out at last, that 'the reward of those crusaders in the cause of
social order, justice, religion, and humanity, is to be an in-
creased profit on the slave trade ! I, for one, never can
March i s.
consent that the country should purchase an indemnity at
such a price. Whether the motion shall succeed or not, I
On the order of the day for taking into consideration the report
beg leave to express to the honourable mover my thanks
ofthe committee on the bill for the abolition of the slave trade,
for bringing it forward, and m y confidence that he will
at a time to he limited, the bill was again strongly opposed by Sir
never suffer the question to rest till it is finally decided.
William Young, General Smith, Mr. Rose, Mr. Secretary Dun_
we are influenced by any sense Of duty to ourselves, by any
das, and General Tarleton ; and. as strongly supported by Mr.
honourable principle of action, we shall not suffer a session
Francis, Mr. Fox, Mr. Montagu, and Mr. Pitt. In reply to what
to pass over without bringing forward the subject for con-
fell from Mr. Dundas,
sideration. It is a subject which becomes peculiarly urgent
from the situation of the West Indies. Whence arises our
N.U. Fox rose and said: —As the right honourable gentle-
weakness in that quarter? Why are we so extremely vul-
- man- seemed in some part of his speech particularly to allude
nerable on every side? From the existence of that abominable
to me, I am desirous to take this opportunity shortly to give
slave trade; which is as miserably impolitic as it is odiously
my opinion on the subject of the debate, which at all events
unjust. The motion is for leave to bring in a bill to abolish
I should have felt to be necessary in the course of the even-
the slave trade at a time to be limited. In the committee
ing. i am glad that the right honourable gentleman has
I certainly shall vote for the earliest day that shall be pro-
found himself sufficiently recovered to attend on this occasion,
posed. It is now about eight or nine years since the subject
and more especially that he has been able to enter into so
fail
was first brought forward, and if the House keep their word,
, a discussion of the question. 'When, Sir, we consider
they cannot avoid taking some decisive step. It was matter
his abilities, his opportunities of acquiring information on the
of joy to us, when we learned, that the slave trade was to
subject, and the great attention which he has-paid to it, we
be abolished in Denmark; but when afterwards we under-
may flatter ourselves that we have now heard the whole force
•
stood that the period of the abolition was not to take place
of the argument against us. When I say against us, I am
till the year x Soo, our satisfaction on the occasion was con-
aware that I do dot use the most parliamentary way of
verted into contempt and ridicule. At present I see no pro-
speaking; but I must confess, that I have been so long en-
bability that the century will put an end to this shame of
gaged on one side of the question, that I have now formed
Great Britain. I cannot submit to sanction this infamous
a strong predetermined opinion. I do not affirm that I am
traffic by mere regulations ; there are some things so bad,
not to be shaken by reasoning, but so intimately interwoven
that even to regulate them, is in some measure to, participate
Is my conviction, that I cannot easily be persuaded, that any
re
in their criminality. Let us send the bill to the House of
asoning can be found to induce me to alter it. There
Lords; if it is there rejected, let us send it up session after
were many parts of the speech of the right honourable
ge
session. Satisfied with the grounds on which we have brought
ntleman, which must be considered as highly favourable
the measure forward, let the perseverance of 'our exertions
to the cause of those who are friends to the abolition.. The
ABOLITION OF TI1E SLAVE TRADE.
1796. ]
ABOLITION OF THE SLAVE TRADE. [March I s,.
124
whole of his argument is a complete answer to those advocates
of the inefficacy of laws to suppress any commerce which-
holds out the tempting prospect of high profit; but this
on the other side, who contend, that the question ought to
refutes the reasoning of those who condemned the severity
be left at rest, that the discussion is highly improper, under
n
the peculiar circumstances of the present time, and that it
of penalties imposed by the present bill ; as it is evident that
rigour of the penalty ought to be in proportion to the
ought not at all to be agitated. I am happy to find that the
fd
toliliffi
ee,cutitlye, of suppressing the offence. In this respect, there-
right honourable gentleman and myself agree in our pre-
right honourable gentleman made the fullest defence
mises, however we may differ with respect to our conclusion.
of those penalties, which have been so much reprobated.
He admits that the trade is not only inconsistent with hu-
On the penalties themselves he did not dwell much; in fact,
manity and justice, (and I should suppose, when I had got
he did not seem to take them at all into his consideration.
that I had not much to ask,) but with policy and prudence
When he asked, " Will it not be practicable to smuggle,
in time of war. It appears, then, that we only differ as to
notwithstanding the operation of the law ?" ought not another
the mede . of abolition.
question to have suggested itself, " Is it not also possible,
The right honourable gentleman states a powerful objec-
that those concerned in smuggling may be detected?" May
tion to our mode, if it be well founded ; namely, that it is
it not be expected, that the law will at least have some effect
impracticable. Let us examine it, as contrasted with that
in securing the object in view; that in some instances the
mode of abolition which he has himself proposed, and see
vigilance of its operation will arrest the criminal; and that
to which of the two this objection of impracticability may
in others, the contemplation of its penalties will prevent the
most justly be applied. First, the right honourable gen-
offence? But another objection is, that these laws cannot be
tleman states that our mode cannot be carried into effect
executed without the co-operation of the West Indians them-
without the consent of the planters, which we cannot expect
selves. Are there not already laws in force, prohibiting any
to have. I have no hesitation to state, that if to the accom-
intercourse between the West Indians and North America,
plishment of the abolition of the slave trade, we attach, as
for the purpose of procuring provisions?' Has there been
a necessary condition, the consent of' the planters, 'we do not
found any deficiency with respect to the observance of those
see the question in a fair and manly light. What ground
laws? And yet provisions may be purchased more easily than
of hope have we, even from their professions, that they will
slaves.
ever be induced to give their consent to such a measure?
Allusions have been made to an expression brought for-
And if we advert to what has been their conduct in every
ward by me on a former evening, and repeated this night by
former instance, we cannot have the smallest prospect that
an honourable friend of mine, (Mr. Francis.) From the
such an event is ever likely to take place. On a former
construction put upon that expression, I conceive that it has
occasion, I trust I may make the allusion without any ir-
been misunderstood. My honourable friend did not say,
regularity, [Mr. Fox here alluded to the line of argument
46 the West Indies are of little consequence, let them go;"
adopted.. by Mr. Dundas, when he proposed his plan of gra-
he merely answered a speculation that the consequence of
dual abolition,] I remember great pains to have been taken
the abolition of the slave trade would be the loss of our West
to hold two different languages to the different parties in this
India possessions; a speculation which, by the bye, is very
question, to persuade the planters that if they did not accede
uncertain. To the assertion on the one side, he only opposed
to terms of gradual abolition, an immediate abolition would
an assertion of his own, that .
be effected; and the enemies of the trade, that if they did
oven if the speculation of the
loss of those islands should be true, we should be as well
not accept of their object upon the same terms, there would
without them : and then came in the case of America. On
be no abolition at all. This attempt to persuade both
that subject, I confess that I hold a different opinion. I
parties completely failed. It did not succeed with me, be-.
c
cause I was persuaded that the abolition might be effected
onsider the loss of America as a grievous misfortune to the
British empire. I always should be inclined to coincide with
in a different manner; and I have not understood that it
those prudent men, who arc not disposed to risk any great
has gained one proselyte among the West Indians. The
stake on the chance of speculation; and if even, in the con-
right honourable gentleman says, that whatever laws may be
test between Great Britain and her colonies, I had been of
passed, the traffic in slaves will not be extirpated, and that
the opinion of the Dean of Gloucester, that the independence
the whole of the navy of England cannot prevent illicit inter-
of America was desirable, I should not have ventured to have
course. I am fully aware of the truth of this position, and
ABOLITION OF THE SLAVE TRADE.
126
ABOLITION OF THE SLAVE TRADE. [March Is.
1796.]
1 27
27
acted on that opinion. But in this case, if' the West India
f that abominable traffic, which thus tends to eradicate
planters should present the alternative, " either we will
°from the character any thing good, amiable, or even hunian ?
separate from Great Britain, or continue the slave trade,"
Can there exist any obligation to be the conductors of such
I should have no hesitation. I would say, " Separate, go to
a trade? We cannot have made such a contract. If we
America, or if you think proper, go to France." When I
have, it is one of those few contracts, which ought to be
threaten them thus, I mean to convey, that the separation
violated
would be infinitely more inconvenient to them than to Great
The right honourable gentleman, in taking notice of the
Britain, and that they are but little prepared for such a step.
particular clauses of -the bill, lamented that there should be
The right honourable gentleman entered into a detail of
one, enacting, that those slaves, who are already in the islands,
the amount of the importations, but was afterwards obliged
should be taken from one island to another, and thus sepa-
to admit, that not much stress was to be laid on a calculation
rated from their acquaintance, and the connections they may
of that sort. He entered also into a speculation with respect
have formed. If such are his feelings with respect to a re-
to the rivalship of America in point of manufactures. The
moval from Barbadoes to Jamaica, if he conceives the attach-
probability of what this country may suffer from such a rival-
ment which binds them to the place they have once inhabited
ship, I consider to be very remote. The extent of land to
to be so strong, with what sentiments must he contemplate
be cultivated in America, compared even with the increasing
that separation which they, in the first instance, experience
rate of population, must retard such an event for a great
from their native soil—that separation which breaks asunder
number of years. But when I venture to put the case of
all the bands of nature, which tears them from every object
the loss of the West Indies, I talk so from a certainty that
of sympathetic fondness, from every scene of early endear-
there is rio danger of such a separation, and from a firm
ment? With respect to the other clause, which enacts, that
conviction that it cannot be the result of the present bill. As
those negroes who shall be attempted to be brought over for
to the point of right, I affirm that, from the nature of the
the purpose of illegal commerce, shall be sold, and the money
connection, no right can be more unquestionable than for
applied to particular purposes, I certainly shall regret its
the legislature of Great Britain to interfere in regulating the
operation, and I sincerely wish that any other mode of dis-
external commerce of her colonies. The right honourable
posing of them could possibly be suggested. It is urged
gentleman says, that if you cut them off from one branch of
against us, " You say, that they are unjustly torn from their
trade, you become yourselves bound to supply the deficiency.
friends and their country : why, then, do you not take the
In point of fact, the argument is not founded, for you have
means to restore them ?' If it were possible to secure this
already interdicted them from many branches of commerce,
object, I should grudge no expence with which it might be
which you do not supply. But what is the extent of his
attended. But one of the evils of this robbery is, that it
argument, as applied to the present case? To say that you
leaves no means of restitution. Should we attempt again to
are. bound to supply the West India planters with slaves with
convey those wretches to the coast of Africa, they might only
your own hands and your own _capital, till such a time as
be left to perish by famine, or might be exposed to a repetition
those gentlemen are convinced that no fresh -supplies are
of the same sufferings which we now deprecate; and this cir-
cu
necessary, is to suppose that you have formed something like
mstance in itself I can only consider as a fresh stigma which
the worst of all contracts. It is to suppose that you have
attaches to this abominable traffic, and a more convincing
proof of its foul atrocity.
sold yourselves to the Devil to the end of time, and are
engaged to do his service, without the possibility of redemp-
As to the practicability of the different plans, so far as they
tion. When the right honourable gentleman talks of the
are connected with the question of the co-operation of the
s
danger to be apprehended from slaves newly imported front
olonies; if the plan of abolition can be carried into effect
a country, where neither from religion, morality, nor philo-
With the consent and co-operation of the colonies, my plan is
f
sophy, they have acquired any laudable sentiment or pod
ully as easy and practicable as that of the right honourable
g
disposition, where neither precept nor example has caai-
entleman : but if it must be enforced without their con-
eurred to form them to amiable manners and habits of vir-ale,
sent, his plan is more difficult in execution, and less certain
i
what is the obvious inference? If there is one country ID the
n its operation than mine. Evasion becomes easy, in pro-
p
world so peculiarly unfortunate, so totally depraved, is n
ortion as distinction is difficult. Would it be harder to pu-
this wretched picture of our nature owing to the existence
niah a man for importing negroes, or for only importing them
128
ABOLITION OF TILE SLAVE TRADE. [March
/796.]
ABOLITION OF THE SLAVE TRADE.
129
above a certain age? In the one case, the enactment is broad
and positive, and removes at once all difficulty and deception
en d. If we have a right to stop the importation of all slaves
the other, the distinction is matter of intricacy and doubt, and
above twenty, why not. stop the importation of all ? If the right
opens a wide door for imposition and subterfuge. But is the
honourable gentleman had brought forward what be stated,
right honourable gentleman prepared to say, that he is autho.
respecting a commission, to take into consideration the situ-
ation of the West Indies and the claims of the planters, as a
rind by the West-India planters to state their co-operation
to the plan which he has proposed? Have they not constantly
specific proposition, I should certainly, in that form, have
opposed the utmost obstacles in their power to every step
Given it all clue attention. At most, it can only weigh as an
which has been taken in this business? Did not the act to
rgument for him, to bring up a clause for that purpose to be
inserted in the bill.
prevent the exportation of negroes to other islands meet also
the opposition of those gentlemen who are enemies to the
In the course of his speech the right honourable gentleman
abolition ? Their co-operation we cannot hope, and we never
took notice of the unfounded calumnies circulated against the
shall have it. 'Doubts have been attempted to be raised with
planters, who had been represented as men devoid of humanity.
whom the right rested to decide upon this question. Un-
Undoubtedly a great body of evidence had been brought
questionably the assembly of Jamaica may decide upon mat-
forward to prove, that many acts of cruelty and tyranny land
ters of internal jurisdiction, but it belongs to the parliament of
:a different times been perpetrated, under the sanction of this
odious traffic. This, indeed, is no good reason why the
Great Britain to regulate the concerns of external trade. It
is not fit that the assembly of Jamaica should take upon itself
planters, who partake of the characters of any mixed body of
men, should be branded with one general stigma. It cannot,
the province of the British legislature. Yet such is the scope
of that reasoning, which goes to affirm that this trade cannot
however, be denied, that wherever there is slavery, there will
be abuse. If, with respect to the West Indies, we judge of
be abolished without the consent of the colonies. With re-
the national character from that which has always been con-
spect to the existence of a supposed engagement sanctioning
sidered as its best criterion, the national laws, we shall form
the trade, and pledging the faith of parliament for its conti-
no very favourable conclusion. What can be more detestable
nuance; whenever parliament at any time thinks proper to
than the laws of Barbadoes, which have been referred to on
encourage a trade in point of' policy, it by no means binds
a former occasion ? And if any thing can exceed the letter of
itself either to carry it on, or to compensate for its abolition.
the law of Barbadoes, it is the practice of Jamaica, as de-
When I opposed the commercial treaty with France, on the
scribed by Mr.
ground that it would be prejudicial to our trade with Portu-
Bryan Edwards, a man who is justly entitled
to every praise. I do not impute that spirit of cruelty to
gal, I never pushed the argument so far as to contend, that
in-
dividuals; it is the inevitable consequence of slavery. This
because, by a former treaty, we had encouraged the trade with
trade, it is said, has existed a hundred years. Slavery, it is
Portugal, we were still indispensably bound to afford it the
to be lamented, is much older. We have had writers on
same countenance, and not to divert commerce into any other
slavery among
channel. But what have we done this session and the last?
the ancients, and there we can trace the same
effects, produced by this detestable practice, as we have oc-
We have in this country, on the ground of the scarcity of
casion to witness in modern times. The authority of Aristotle
provisions, entirely stopped a great trade, the distillery trade.
has been quoted, and what does he say on the subject? " The
No proposition can be more evident, than whenever any mo-
Barbarians are slaves by nature, and made for the service of
tive of policy requires a trade to be suppressed, the legislature
the Creeks." Finding the practice subsisting among his
are immediately authorized to employ measures to suppress it.
Countrymen, this occurred to him as the easiest and most sa-
But the suppression of this trade is called for, not only by
tisfactory mode of accounting for its origin ; and in another
motives of policy, but of humanity; and by what is far supe-
place he says: " You must not introduce what is too impro-
rior to any considerations either of policy or humanity—the
bable, even in fiction ; therefore you must not represent a slave
principles of justice.
as a good man; for the character, though not impossible, is
The right honourable gentleman admits, that without some
contrary to nature and to general experience." Nothing, in-
regulations the trade not only cannot be carried on, con-
deed, can be more true than that all the virtues of man are
sistently with policy and prudence, but consistently with hu-
alli ed to liberty : in the generous soil of freedom they take
manity and justice. When he admits this right of regulation,
deep root, and acquire full vigour and maturity ; their
all question with. respect to the right of interference is at an
VOL. VI.
[March I °
130
ABOLITION OF THE SLAVE TRADE.
) •
1796.]
ABOLITION OF THE SLAVE TRADE.
13 1
vices foster on the dunghill of slavery, and shoot forth with
point of her right to carry on-the trade, and openly avowing
nauseous luxuriance.
i ts inj ustice, should still continue to exercise that- trade with
But the right honourable gentleman says, that even if we
respect to the weak and the helpless ? Is it of consequence
should abandon the trade, from a principle of justice, we
for a nation to be moral? 'What impression, then, must it
should still gain nothing on the score of humanity. I will.
(rive to other states, that Great Britain declares that she feels
not again repeat the argument already so often enforced, that
file inhumanity, that she acknowledges the injustice of the
we ought t9 abstain from crimes without any consideration of
slave trade, that she henceforth renounces all privilege to
consequences. But I will ask, if we abandon the trade at the
traffic in those who have arrived at manhood, and attained
present moment who arc likely to take it up? Win the French,
their full strength, but reserves to herself the power to prey
the Dutch, or the Americans readily embark in such an un-
on helpless infancy and unoffending innocence, without con-
dertaking? If, from a principle of justice, this great country
sidering the feelings of those who are thus bereaved of their
takes the lead in renouncing this abominable and disgraceful
children, or the sufferings of the poor victims thus dragged
traffic; if America bears testimony to the same cause, and
from the bosom of parental fondness, to drink the bitter
France, already pledged by her own declarations, perseveres
draught of slavery ? Can a government continue respected
in the course she has adopted, may not this powerful example
or respectable, which places humanity and justice in one -
be supposed to be the most effectual step to bring about a
hand, and policy and gain in the other? And yet, this must
.complete and final abolition? I ask those who question your
he the case if you do not abolish the slave trade, and
right to legislate for Jamaica, what right you have to legislate
still more so if you adopt the plan of abolition proposed
for Africa? what right Englishmen have to tear the unoffend-
by the right honourable gentleman. My honourable friend
ing inhabitants from their native soil, and to devote them as
(General Smith) says, that an act of parliament will never
the victims of their [avarice and cruelty ? what sort of law
pass to abolish this trade. I am persuaded that the opinion
that is which sanctions the commission of injustice ? what sort
of the House of Commons, firmly and decidedly expressed,
of morality that is which teaches us to commit crimes, because
will have great weight in influencing the ultimate decision ;
they are countenanced by the example of others ?
and you ought to lose no time in giving it the utmost possible
An honourable friend of mine (General Smith), supposing
effect. I am astonished that our proposition should be termed
that a general burst of exclamation which proceeded from
abrupt and hasty ; it is now eight years since the business was
those who were adverse to the trade was meant to interrupt
first brought forward; the abolition, by a vote of this House,
him, said " it was very well for gentlemen to decide on the
was fixed for 17 96, and we now come to ask it in 1797 ! Of
question, without thinking of the claims of those in the West
all other charges, that of precipitancy is the least applicable to
Indies, and then retire to their luxury or repose." I rather
the supporters of this bill. If the other branch of the legis-
suppose that exclamation proceeded from those who were
lature shall still be found to differ from us in 'opinion on 'this
thinking of the claims of persons in the West Indies, though
subject, let us at least shew by our conduct, that it is not the
not of the description intended by the honourable general—
fault of the House of Commons that the continuance of a
from those who were thinking of the claims of the poor ne-
traffic was sanctioned, which every man admits to be contrary
groes. Good God ! are we placed in those circumstances of
to humanity, policy, and justice.
comfort and ease which he has described, and can we hesitate
a moment to decide whether we shall leave the African in
At the close of the debate, General Tarleton moved to leave
possession of the common blessings of nature; of the en-
out the word " now," and at the end of the question to acid the
w
joyment of his freedom, and the privilege of his industry, or
ords " this day four months." The question being put, that the
Word " now" stand part of the question, the House divided :
whether we shall barbarously tear him from his home, and
doom him to be the drudge of avarice, and the victim of
Tellers.
Tellers.
y8As J Lord Muncaster,
tyranny
General Tarleton
7o. — NOES
Z Mr. M. Montagu
But, if I have already shown the plan of the right honour-
Mr. Robt. Dundasf 74'
able gentleman to be most exceptionable in point of practica-
So it passed in the negative. After which General Tarleton's
ro
bility, how does it stand in point of humanity and justice?
otion, that the report be taken into consideration upon this day
four months was agreed to.
What must we think if Great Britain, giving up the general
X. 2
132
MR. SMITH'S MOTION
[Feb. 26.
1 79 6.]
RESPECTING TIIE LOAN.
133
make that sort of attack on any man, to pretend to say there
might be guilt, when he thought there was none ; nor should
he ever be backward in stating it where he had suspicions.
But with regard to the guilt, as it appeared to him in this
MR. WILLIAM SMITH'S MOTION RESPECTING THE LOAN.
case, he would state it to the House, as well as what he
conceived to be the nature of the accusation.. The minister
Febr/My 26.
had stated, that the accusation originally made against him-
upon this subject was, that he held a negociation in concluding
N the course of an investigation into the circumstances attending
T
the bargain for the loan, that was to be used for the purposes of
I the negociation of the loan for this year, it appeared that a very
extraordinary and marked preference had been given by the mi.
of corruption, and that it might be made use of to influence
nister to the mercantile house of Messrs. Boyd, though conducted
the members of that House to vote for him. This was in-
on the professed principle of a free and open competition, and that
correct. No such accusation was ever made against that right
the equally respectable house of Mellish and Morgan would have
honourable gentleman. The original mover of the resolutions
taken it on terms considerably more advantageous to the public.
now before the House' had never imputed that to the minister.
The attention of parliament was called to the subject by Mr.
He too, had always acquitted the right honourable gentleman
William Smith, who moved several resolutions of censure on the
of personal corruption ; and for this the right honourable gen-
subject. On the first resolution being put, viz. " That it ap-
tleman said, he did not thank him. I care not, said Mr. Fox ;
pears to this House, that the principle of making loans for the
I claim not his thanks, nor shall I ever complain that I do not
public service by free and open competition, uniformly professed
.by the chancellor of the _exchequer, has been very generally re,
receive them. But I accused him then,and I accuse him now, of
cognized, as affording the fairest prospect of public advantage ;" a
having made an improvident bargain for the public. Even
debate of great length took place. An amendment to the reso-
improvidence, in a minister of finance, Mr. Fox contended to
lution was proposed by Mr. Sylvester Douglas, who moved that it
be no small crime; and he could . not help saying he was sur-
should stand thus : " That it appears to this House, that the prin-
prised to hear that sort of improvidence stated as a mere pecca-
ciple of making loans for the public service by competition, which
dillo. 'What ! improvidence in a chancellor of the exchequer,.
was introduced, and has in general been acted upon, by the present
to the vast extent of this loan, a mere peccadillo ! It was not
chancellor of the exchequer, has been productive in many instances
so to be called; it was a very serious charge against a minister
of great public advantage ; but that this principle could not be
applied in its full extent, to the bargain for the late loan, consist-
of this country to say that he had in a transaction of this vast
ently with the peculiar circumstances of the case, and with that
importance made an improvident bargain. The bargain was
attention to the equitable claims of individuals, which ought always
not improvident merely ; it was made under such suspicious
to be shewn in transactions with them on the behalf of the public."
circumstances, as the House ought not to be too ready to ex-
Afer the terms of the loan had been defended by Mr. Steele, and
cuse. But he must protest against the doctrine that no bad
Mr. Pitt,
motive should be assigned to the minister, if it could not be
proved what that motive was. This was against the common
Mr. Fox said, that exclusive of the importance of the
order of things, which he conceived in the present instance
subject now before the House, he must, from the evidence
entitled him to say, that the motive, be it what it might, could
before him, vote for the original proposition of his honour-
not be a good one where the effect was so bad, and the cir-
able friend, and against the amendment which had been
cumstances so suspicious.
proposed, for that amendment alledged for a fact that
The right honourable gentleman had insisted that he was
which was not true; and among the reasons which lie had for
totally .f
exculpated from all attempts to influence, by this loan,
the vote which he should give, was that of some expressions
the votes of the members of' that House. He dared to say that
of the learned gentleman who proposed the amendment, and
this was true, for he did not see in the present state of the po-
also of the minister himself; who had held pretty lofty
litics of this country, that the right honourable gentleman
language upon this occasion. He had said, that they had in-
had any occasion to increase his majority in that House, and
ferred guilt where there was no evidence of it, and had made
this
loan was made a subject of influence, it must
insinuations which they half retracted. He thought lie knew
be influence of another kind. The right honourable gentle-
his duty too well ever to make any insinuation of guilt, where
Man, as well as the learned gentleman who opened the debate,
there was no suspicion. It was wholly against his, nature to
had insisted much that the merchants in the city, who were
x 3
1 34
MR. SMITH'S MOTION
[Feb. 26.
/796.J
RESPECTING THE LOAN.
135
subscribers to this loan, were not concerned in any way of di..
Here Mr. Fox proceeded to take notice of the evidence as
rect influence; but that was not the charge which he made
printed in the report, and to comment on the various circum-
jagainst the minister. If there was any species of improvidence
stances of that evidence, by which he inferred that a pre-
-hich it was proper in the house to check rather than another,
ference was really intended by the minister to be given to Mr.
it was that species which went, not to affix political weakness
Boyd. At all events, it was extremely material to the honour
and political disgrace on the character of the minister, but
of his character, fairly to tell when he had the first notice of
which tended to procure for him; from great and powerful
Mr. Boyd's claims. He had pressed him often for an answer
men, great and powerful support. In the present case, the
to this question, and never had obtained any specific reply.
loan was diffused among a class of men, from whom the mi-
On this point he thought Mr. Boyd's evidence inconsistent
nister, even supposing him innocent of any corrupt intention,
with the right honourable gentleman's declaration. Mr..I3oyd
might derive much more solid advantage than from a few
said positively, on his examination, that as early as October
votes in the House of Commons.
he preferred his claim to the chancellor of the exchequer, and
The first point in the business to which he would call the
that the chancellor of the exchequer, being convinced of its
attention of the House, was the mode of transacting the loan.
justice, came under promise to give him the preference. Ile
The right honourable gentleman had all along been an advo-
was willing to make every allowance for omissions amid the •
cate for free and open competition. He begged leave to dis-
multiplicity of business with which the attention of the right
miss all cavil upon the expression "free and open competition;"
honourable gentleman must necessarily be distracted, but to
lie meant it in the fair and candid sense. But how stood the
forget such an important subject as this, admitted neither of
matter in point of fact with regard to the conduct of the chan-
palliation nor excuse. Was it nothing, after having come
cellor of the exchequer ? In 17 9 3, he brought before the House
under a positive promise to prefer an individual, to give notice
a bargain so extravagant and wasteful to the public, that he
to the governor of the bank of his intention to hold out
attempted to defend it only by stating, that it had been the
proposals of public competition, in which he knew at the
result of a free and open competition. This proved how much
time it would not be in his power to persevere, and which, in
merit the minister thought there was in free and open compe-
fact, he had been obliged to abandon ? And here he would
tition, since he rested his defence in a case so desperate wholly
say something upon the claim of Mr. Boyd. If the claim was
on that circumstance. Why then, he could not help suspect-
invalid, it would only vary the degree of guilt; and if it was
ing the fairness of that loan, in which the minister abandoned
valid, it was a singular circumstance that it should have been
this mode, and that, too, in a loan as extensive and extrava-
entirely forgotten. It certainly was not a claim founded upon
gant as any we had ever heard of. This loan, therefore, was
a direct written or verbal agreement: but even though the
as extravagant in point of terms and more objectionable in
claim was good, it was not sufficient to stand between him and
point of manner, than the loan of 1793 ; and here he must
the public ; and though gentlemen were extremely fond of
make an observation, that the right honourable gentleman's
appealing to the governor of the bank, the evidence that he
exceptions were greater than his rules. For it was not true,
gave before the committee went directly to invalidate his
that he had in substance followed the principle of public com-
claim. The opinion of Mr. Giles was fortified by fact and
petition in loans; particularly if we looked to quantity instead
justice. For supposing, which he really believed was the case,
of number of loans. The last two loans were not made by
that it would have been better for the nation to have given
competition, and in point of quantity they nearly equalled all
the contractors a pecuniary compensation, if the chancellor
the others put together; amounting to pretty nearly fifty
of the exchequer, or if the country, were bound to the con-
millions. The minister, therefore, had abandoned the prac-
tractors, they were bound to the contributors; and if such a
tice, which he extolled in theory, of public competition ; fifty
compensation had been granted, it would have been but fair
millions had been added to the capital of our debt, and that
that its advantages should have been extended to the contri-
without a competition in the bidding for the loans. He wanted
butors, as well as to the contractors. Supposing, for instance,
to know whether, according to the principles of common sense,
that 3 or 400,000l. had been voted to Mr. Boyd and his
he was not called upon to say that this loan was an improvi-
friends for the loss they sustained, the House would certainly
dent bargain, on the part of the public? And he would ask
have provided that the compensation should extend to all the
the House, whether such a man should pass uncensured,
subscribers as well as to the contractors; for how the country
merely because it could not be proved what his motives were?
could be bound to the contractor and not to the contributor,
K 4
I;6
MR. SMITH'S MOTION
[Feb. 26.
796.]
RESPECTING THE LOAN.
t
he was at a loss to conceive. It was said that these come
men t • whereas, on Rimer occasions, it used only to be eon-
under some degree of risk. But how long did it exist? Only
eluded one, two, or three days before the opening . of the
till the deposit was made. What was the nature of the risk''
budget.
A risk might be so much that it might be nothing at all.
From the circumstances of the loan Mr. Fox proceeded to
The contractor might sometimes be obliged to hold scrip for
the
spea
speak
he motives which actuated the negociation. And if
a considerable time ; but so was the contributor, and the risk
it was not allowed to operate as an instrument of corruption,
on his part was only less, as the contractor had commonly a
it certainly had sonic reference to a transaction which took
greater share than the contributor. In justice, then, and the
place in September, in which Mr. Boyd raised 2,500,0001.
nature of things; there was certainly nothing to authorize the
for government, upon treasury bills, bearing a fictitious date
claim. There had been many a loan bargained for in this
at IIainburgh though drawn here. This transaction Mr. Fox
country; but there had not been a sufficient number of in-
reprobated, on the authority of the governor of the bank of
stances to constitute a custom on this head.
England, as extremely discreditable to government, and as
Much stress had been laid on the conversation which took
disgraceful to those who set it On foot. When he saw the
place between the chancellor of the exchequer and Mr. Boyd,
right honourable gentleman abandon his principles; when lie
in 17 94. It seemed, the chancellor of the exchequer, in order
saw him abandon them at the suit of an individual; and when
to hasten the payment of the loan, had said, that the following
he saw him abandon them in favour of this individual, after
February would be too late for the last instalment, because it
being engaged in a discreditable transaction with him, the
might be necessary to negotiate a new loan before that time.
observation could not but excite some suspicions, and it would
This expression of the chancellor of the exchequer was re-
require stronger reasons than any that he had adduced to
presented as a virtual recognizance of the claim of Mr. Boyd.
establish his innocence. But, said the right honourable gen-
But it *as not necessary to ascribe this conversation to a ten-
tleman, this was only a necessary supply, which Mr. Boyd
derness for Mr. Boyd's right, when it was much more natural
advanced in the most liberal manner for the service of the
to suppose it proceeded from a concern for the public in-
country, in a time of difficulty, when her resources were ex-
terest. This casual expression, however, had such an effect
hausted, and when it would have been exceedingly incon-
upon the mind of the right honourable gentleman, that
venient to have convened parliament. This representation
he could not efface the idea of Mr. Boyd's peremptory right
served only to enhance the favour conferred by Mr. Boyd,
to shut the market against new loans, till the last instalment
and to establish the relation between that transaction and the
upon the preceding loan should have been paid. To all this
negociation of the present loan ; for to relieve the minister
the right honourable gentleman asked, " Have I shewn any
from such difficulties as those, and in which he had involved
symptoms of partiality to Mr. Boyd? On the contrary, was
himself by improvidence or extravagance, was an obligation
it not with the greatest reluctance that I deserted my favourite
which would naturally in these circumstances be too highly
system, in order to satisfy his claim?" We have seen reluc-
valued to be easily forgotten. He might have negociated a
tance (said Mr. Fox) often used as a veil under which we con-
short loan in September, which would have operated as a pre-
ceal the commission of acts which we ought not to have com-
sent supply till after the holidays; but this could not have
mitted. With what " sweet, reluctant, amorous delay," the
been explained to France, nor would it have given that power
right honourable gentleman took leave of his professions I
half the idea of our financial superiority which she must ne-
c
know not. Still, however, lie maintained that he kept up
essarily have formed from such a highly-creditable trans-
some degree of competition. But if he was aware that it was
action, as raisi a money by means of fictitious Hamburgh
no
such a competition as to excite contempt, Mr. Fox said he could
bills !
give it no other character than that of a miserable expedient
Mr. Fox adverted to the report, and to that part of it espe-
to cover his determination ; and if he had a better opinion of
a stated the conduct and the evidence of Mr. IVIor-
it, why did he abandon it on the opinion of two angry men ?
gan, both of which he said, appeared to him to have been na-
But here occurred a question of moment, respecting the time
tural enough. That gentleman had expressed himself in his
ev
at which the loan was made. On account of some pressing
idence consistently. Much had been said, that Mr. Morgan
business in the House of Commons, he could not bring on
appeared to be angry with the minister on this occasion. Was
tv
the budget, but yet he could not put off the loan, but con-
unnatural
ilral in a man, who felt that he had been insulted
cluded the bargain twelve days before he notified it to parlias,
with mockery of competition ? He had lost that which was
138
MR. SMITH'S MOTION
[Feb. 26.
1796.]
RESPECTING THE LOAN.
139
the object of his heart, the loan, and therefore there was no-
months ago they were described as being in the agonies of death,
thing wonderful in his anger. Every candid man would agree
in the very gulph of bankruptcy. All arguments respecting the
that some allowance ought to be made for a man irritated by
decay of the French finances, he considered as so many childish
disappointment. Mr. Morgan had said he wouldhave made
and contemptible pretences to veil (and a thin veil it was,) the
a bargain for the loan, which would have been better for the
suspicious conduct of the chancellor of the exchequer. When
public than this. Here was at once, then, the best of all possible
the right honourable gentleman was obliged to have recourse
evidences, the evidentia rei, that the bargain was an impro-
to such pretexts, in his opinion, no accuser could say more
vident one. Why, it was asked, did Mr. Morgan not hid
against him. He was asked, how he came to calculate upon
above Mr. Boyd by his proxy in the House of Commons when
dui average rise of stock, and of course the average premium
the subject was debated, up to the whole amount, which he
On the loan from the temporary effect of any particular news ?
stated the public to have lost? The answer to this question
He replied, that he calculated upon the price of stock, when
was plain, and Mr. Morgan had already given it. He did
subscribers made their first deposit, at which period the cra-
not hid for the public good, but for his own good, and there-
nium afforded a clear profit of twelve and a half per cent. He
fore, when he was bidding to the House of Commons when
admitted, for argument's sake, that the message might be
they were called upon to ratify a bad bargain, a sum consider-
the natural effect of the minister's comment on the king's
able enough to make that bargain much better for the public,
speech at the opening of the session ; but who did not know
the less he advanced the better for himself. Such was the
that a formal message from the throne carried much greater
admission of Mr. Morgan ; and he had not the smallest
weight with it than an occasional speech of a minister in par-
scruple to declare, that he felt as much willingness to be-
liament ? The fall of stock was not to be wondered at, be-
lieve a man who thus admitted that he wished to take care of
cause the public had never seen the message acted upon, and
his own interest, as he who pretended, in money matters, to
therefore it was but natural that the funds should sink to their
have nothing in view but the public good. Here, then, we
former level. The conduct of the commissioners appointed
had a man preferred by the minister, with whom transactions
to manage the funds for the liquidation of the national debt,
of a very suspicious nature had been carried on, and this pre-
in buying into the four, instead of three per cents., Mr. Fox
ference had cost the public an immense sum of money. What
stated to be another matter deserving the attention of the
was he to say on such a case ? What could he say, but that
House; and a due consideration of it would, he said, easily
the minister proceeded upon some motive or other that, from
satisfy them, that it was to be regarded as a part of the cir-
the circumstances and the manner of it, had rather the ap-
cumstances, that bore relation to the late improvident bargain
pearance of a bad than a good one ; it had certainly operated
with Mr. Boyd. He concluded with maintaining, that the
to the very great detriment of the public at large, and to the
terms of the loan were much more extravagant, not than the
ill character of the pecuniary concerns of this country.
country had paid at former times, but in comparison with the
Mr. Fox next proceeded to take notice of the different
terms which might, when the loan was made, have been ob-
causes, which the minister had assigned for the rise in the
tained by free and open competition. He sat down, with
price of the funds soon after the loan was contracted for, and
giving it as his opinion, that the chancellor of the exchequer
declared that he was clearly of opinion, that the king's mes-
had been guilty of a breach of duty, and on that ground he
sage, which came to that House on the day after the budget,
must give his assent to the original resolution.
was the chief cause of that rise. The right honourable gen-
tlemen contended, that. the news of the Austrian victories,
Mr. Smith's first resolution was rejected, on a division, by 171
had a considerable share in promoting the rise. These victo-
-against 23 ; after which Mr. Douglas's amendment was agreed to.
ries, let it be recollected, were pretty generally known before
the 2gth of November. The rapid decay of the French
finances was assigned as another cause of this political pliwno-
menon. He begged however to know, whether, after the
25th of November, the French finances had decayed so ra-
pidly, that even the most sanguine calculator found his calcu-
lations far short of the truth. He was the more surprised at
hearing this language when he recollected that about eight
THE REPEAL OF THE GAME LAWS.
I 796.]
MR. CURWEN'S BILL FOR
[March 4,
141
144
was not considered to involve any moral guilt, and therefore
it was to be altered and avoided, and always would be altered
and avoided, as much as possible, by every wise legislature.
MR. CHRISTEN'S BILL FOR THE REPEAL OF THE GAME
The question here was, whether the good (if there was any)
LAWS.
which • was gained by these game laws, was so much as to
overbalance the evil they were the cause of? It was said, that
March 4.
gentlemen should have great inducements to live in the coun-
try. Certainly they should ; it was proper and beneficial ;
'HIS day Mr. Curwen moved, " That leave be given to bring in
men of high situation in life and of large fortunes, were, un-
a bill to repeal the acts of the 22d and 2 1 d of Charles II. the
doubtedly, fit objects of the attention of the legislature in every
1st of James I. the 4th and stir of William and Mary, the 5th and
point of view. He was willing to grant that care should be
9th of Anne, and the 2gth of George or such parts thereof, to
taken to protect them in the enjoyment even of their amuse-.
be particularly specified, as relate to the Preservation of Game ;
and for substituting other provisions in lieu thereof." Mr. Buxton
me.nts. Be it so. It was, however, his opinion, that the
was of opinion that game should be made private property. Mr.
repeal of the game laws would not tend to the diininution of
Windham wished for a modification of the game laws, but upon
that object; and that ought to go a great way towards the
general principles he felt a very great repugnance to accede to any
repeal of those laws. He could not say, like an honourable
sudden change in any ancient system.
gentleman, that lie was quite impartial on the subject, be-
cause certainly he indulged in the amusements of sporting as
Mr. Fox said, he hoped that no effectual opposition would
much as his leisure would allow. So did the honourable gen-
be made to the motion of his honourable friend that night,
tleman who made the present motion. That could not ren-
which was-only for leave to bring in a bill, hereafter to he
der either of them, from the part they took in this case, the
discussed. He should not offend the right honourable gen-
more liable to distrust by those who wanted to protect the
tleman who spoke last, by saying any thing upon the doc-
game. With respect to the game laws, his opinion was, that
trine of natural rights. But although, on the principle of
there might easily be found a much better system than they
property, it might not be absolutely unjust to make a dis-
were for the protection of the game, supposing the House to
tinction between the qualification to kill game and any other
have nothing else in view upon the subject. He thought that
qualification, yet, on the principle of congruity and of policy,
the better way would be for the House to adopt the idea of.
the game laws were indefensible, for by them it appeared, that
an honourable gentleman, (Mr. Buxton,) and make game pri-
a great number of the most opulent part of the people of this
vate property. If he was bound to take his choice out of
country were not permitted to enjoy the luxury of sporting
three cases, either that the laws should remain as they are, be
with game. This was obviously incongruous ; it would be so
totally and nothing else, or that be made pri-
p
in any state, and therefore improper, but much more so in
vate property, he should certainly say, " make game private
that state under which we had the happiness to live. So much
for the consistency of these laws. Was it not true that these laws
If, however, he was compelled to clause between two ques-
were ineffectual ? That they were almost universally broken?
tions, whether these laws should remain as they were, or be
That there was no place whatever where game was not, or
totally repealed, and nothing else, he should have no diffi-
might not be purchased, contrary to these laws ? What was
culty in saying, that they should be all repealed without any
the use of laws to prohibit the sale of game ? As long as
thing being substituted in their stead. The greater part of
rich men wanted game, poor men would procure game. Was
these laws were so arbitrary, the principle which ran through
not that the result of the ,game laws ? Did not that call for a
them all was so impregnated with tyranny, that they were en-
repeal of the game laws ? He would not say that he would
tirely unfit to exist as laws in a free state. Such was their
never agree to a proposition that made that criminal by law
Pri nciple. The practice arising out of them was equally liable
which was not morally considered criminal ; yet it was cer-
to objection ; for the penalties sued for must be solicited by
tainly clear, that that law was best kept which declared that to
Parties who were generally too much affected by animosity
be criminal, which the general feeling and sentiment of man-
to the party against which they sued. Nor was it always quite
kind regarded as morally criminal. That law would thrive.
a Clear case that the magistrate who pronounced the convic-
It would be generally obeyed. It always had been, it always
tion was strictly impartial. The whole of the system was, in
would be, otherwise with a law which prohibited that which
142 MR. CURWEN'S BILL FOR [March • •
1796.3
THE REPEAL OF THE GAME LAWS.
143
Mr. Jenkinson said, that although he considered the game laws
fact, amass of insufferable tyranny, which no gentleman had
i„ an objectionable point of view, yet he was so averse to any al-
ever ventured to defend in a direct way. If gentlemen thought
teration taking place in a system so long established, especially at
proper to assert that the game laws tended to protect the
a time like the present, when every deviation from legal custom
game, he would answer them directly, that they did no such
ought scrupulously to be guarded against, that he must oppose thc..
thing. He would ask any person conversant with the subject,
motion .
He therefore moved, That the House do now adjourn.
whether, in point of fact, where game was preserved, it was
Upon this the House divided :
not from the law of property, and not from the game laws?
ell
T ers.
.
Tellers.
He was sure it was owing to the law of property, solely, that
Mr. Jenkinson
M
I
-,,,
{ Mr. Curwen
---
YEAS 1
IN 0 ES
game was preserved. Where had game been well preserved, ex-
Mr.
Y
Mr. Buxton
W allace
50.
cept where the holder of the land was the proprietor of it, and
So it passed in the negative. After this, Mr. Curwen consented
had the right by law to kill game ? Had it been so where
withdraw . his motion, and the House agreed to go into a com-
to
the holder of the land was not the proprietor, and had not
mittee of the whole House, on that day sennight, to take the said
acts into consideration.
the right to kill game ?
He would say again, that the preservation of the game was
entirely owing to the proprietors of land, and not to the game
April 29.
laws, and therefore it was the principle of property which
protected the game. He spoke confidently upon this subject,
On the it th of April Mr. Curwen obtained leave to bring in a bill
and he was glad he spoke in the hearing of many who
for repealing certain statutes relating to the game, and for the bet-
knew the matter better than he did. But what was the pro-
ter preservation thereof, and also for extending the privilege of
position of his honourable friend ? Only that a penalty of sl.
killing game, to the owners and occupiers of land. On the motion
be imposed on a person who should, after notice, trespass on
for the second reading of the bill, on the 29th, Captain Berkeley
the land of another, and kill game there. He thought that
moved, That it be read a second time upon that day three months.
game should be made private property. That was his opinion.
The bill was also opposed by Sir Richard Sutton, who stated, that
He knew that the prejudices of men were a long time in wear-
in Germany game could be bought and sold at the public market
by those who were qualified ;
ing out, and that was a point that was much to be considered,
and recommended the same regulation
in this country.
and great care to be taken of it ; for would it be an easy thing
to make the public regard game in a field, in the same light as
Mr. Fox said, that lie was a very warm friend to the prin-
any other property? To conquer that prejudice would re-
ciple of this measure, though some of the clauses of the bill
quire time, and the House might consider of that hereafter.
might be thought exceptionable. He wished to abstain from
The question, however, here was, whether the House would
general arguments, he hoped however the House would con-
not agree to bring in a bill, to repeal laws which no man in
sider what the houourable baronet had advanced with regard
the House defended in principle? Why not agree, then, to
to the German laws, as totally inapplicable to the question.
the introduction of the bill, and when it went into a com-
What, he asked, was there in the British code to resemble
mittee, propose some substitutions for the laws? But al-
in the least the laws of Germany ? He was surprised to hear
though this was his opinion, yet the question, he was willing
any thing like the introduction of them into this kingdom.
to confess, was not so pressing or so ur gent that the House
r,
The arguments, however, of the honourable baronet as far
should not take time to consider it. That the game laws were
as they were right, most assuredly went to the fundamental
really mischievous and created crimes ; that they increased the
repeal of the game laws. He said, that in Germany, and
number of offenders against themselves, and thereby increased
he recommended the same regulation to be adopted here,
the number of persons who were ready to commit other crimes,
game could be bought and sold at the public market by those
could not possibly admit of any doubt. He should hope,
who were qualified. How then did the matter stand ? The
therefore, that the bill would be permitted to be brought in
lord
of the manor might employ a game-keeper to kill
and would pass. He was perfectly sure, that the game laws
his
game; but the lord of the manor must sell it. He was firmly
were not good for the preservation of game. It seemed to
Persuaded, that to give the land-holder his just right over the
be agreed that they were bad for that purpose: they could,
game on the grounds which he occupied, would be the best
therefore, be kept only (if they were to be kept) for the sake
cleans of preserving the game. The land-holder had an in-
of the invidious distinction which they establislied.
1;
144 BILL rOR THE REPEAL OF THE GAME LAWS. [April 29,
1796,E DUTIES ON LEGACIES OF PERSONAL ESTATES. 145
disputable right to the game on his ground, and much man,
(M•. Windham) to say whether in the great sporting county
so, assuredly, than the man who obtains a fictitious right to
kill game, by taking out his qualification. With regard to
where he occasionally resided, it was usual for farmers to
warn gentlemen off their grounds ? The reverse, he believed,
poaching, he confessed he was no friend to it, but he would
was the fact. Thus was the game, he insisted, diminished in
not go so far as the worthy baronet, and say, that he would
consequence of the acts passed by our ancestors for its pro-
have no mercy for poachers. But, if the worthy baronet en-
tection, as the farmers were indifferent as to the persons by
tertained such an idea of the criminality of a poacher, a
whom it was destroyed. The vote he should give that night,
person whose situation might be some alleviation of his guilt,
certainly would be for the second reading of the bill, which
what did he say to those by whom he was employed ? Were
might be amended in the committee, and lie over to another
they not, in a moral point of view, equally, if not more
session, until it was maturely considered by the members of
culpable in inciting him to the violation of the laws of his.
the House.
country ? He never could look upon the breach of the laws
with more horror, as far as related to the poor, than he did
The House divided on the motion, " That the bill be now read
with respect to the rich ; who, in many instances, conceived
a second time:
that they were free from guilt, as long as they escaped with
Tellers.
Tellers.
impunity. When gentlemen called for vengeance against
{Mr. Curwen )
YEAS
iCaptain Berkeley )
these unfortunate men, he could riot look upon those with
Mr. Crewe 17. ---N"s IMr. Sumner
i 48.
complacency who trafficked for boroughs, and purchased seats
The motion that the bill be read that day three months was then
in the House of Commons. He could not persecute the
put an d carried.
poor poacher with indignant rage, without manifesting his
detestation at the conduct of many of his superiors. To
prevent the evil, the remedy, he maintained, was in the prin-
ciple of the bill; for he insisted that, conformably to the
doctrine of the most eminent writers on the criminal juris-
prudence of this country, , the game laws were not only in-
DUTIES ON LEGACIES' OF PERSONAL ESTATES.
effectual, but disgraceful to the nation. It was shocking that
a penal law should exist, which was daily broken, and without
March 22.
the possibility of being enforced. And what was the conse-
quence? The consequence was obvious; it increased the
number of persons acting against law, who were, from their
O N the order of the clay for taking into consideration the
report of the committee on the bill for repealing certain
bad habits, the more liable to fall into other offences. Take
duties on legacies and shares of personal estates, and granting
away, therefore, the corner stone of these crimes, the tempt-
other duties thereon, Mr. Pitt moved, That the said report be
ation to the private sale of game ; for in proportion as the
now taken into consideration ; as an amendment to which, Mr.
A
laws were infringed with impunity, so did crimes invariably
lderman Newnharn moved, that it be taken into consideration
on this day four months.
increase. This law, so often broken, added considerably to
the melancholy catalogue of criminals. If he were asked,
would he repeal the game laws without any substitution? he
Mr. Fox said, he should concur in the motion for post-
poning this bill. As to the time, perhaps he might
would answer, certainl y, rather than they should exist, with-
differ
from the worthy magistrate who made the motion. With
out any amendment. But the substitute was provided by the
r
bill, by making game private property. A reciprocal desire
espect to the bill itself, he had considered it I'rom the very
beginning
to oblige prevailed throughout this country between the tenant
to be a measure altogether impracticable in the
and landlord; and if the present bill, properly amended,
present state of the country. He did not think that any
c
was passed, gentlemen would not find themselves more re-
lause could be introduced into the bill which would do away
t
objections to it; for the whole principle of the bill was
strained than they were at present in their amusement. He
rad
again pressed the House, if the preservation of game was
ically unjust. He was exceedingly sorry, however, that
its object, to give the land-holder an interest in its pro'
he bad been prevented by indisposition from attending when
the
tection, and he called on the right honourable gentleman,
bill was in the committee, and examining the different
cla
Is
uses as they were proposed, for he now professed himself
von. yr.
46 DUTIES ON LEGACIES OF PERSONAL ESTATES. [March 22,
X96.J DUTIES ON LEGACIES OF PERSONAL ESTATES. 147
incapable of understanding them. Objections, however, to
the second or third annuitant after the death of the first, if
the whole bill were too obvious to pass unnoticed. Every
restitution be made to the third or fourth, what restitution
species of commercial property must by this bill be laid hold
eould be made to the first annuitant ? Or how was any res-
of and exposed by government. He was told formerly, that
titution provided for ?
this inconvenience might be avoided. His answer was, " that
There were many other objections to the provisions of the
is morally impossible;" for the very idea of making a man
bill. It was well observed by the worthy magistrate, that a
pay a profit to government for his property ad valorem, must
°Teat hardship would be cast on children who had the mis-
necessarily imply that the value of that property shall be
fortune to be of illegitimate birth. How was this to be ma-
ascertained. This must also necessarily make public the
na nd ? Was there to be a power to institute an inquiry into
value of all the bequests in the kingdom. It was not neces-
the legitimacyof the children ? Was there to be an inquiry
sary for him to dilate upon this subj ect. This ascertainment
into the legality 'of the marriage of the father, or the grand-
of the value of every thing hereafter to be bequeathed, must
father. Had government that power? If they had, what a
necessarily depend upon a balance between debts and credits.
scene of confusion and intolerable vexation would follow from
Now, there might, and there must be, cases in which this
the exercise of that power ! If this bill was consented to,
system would be attended with great injustice. It was said,
there would be other taxes of the same kind brought forward,
that as we cannot ascertain the value of a person's property,
and no good argument could then be found for opposing them.
it shall-be taken according to the profits afterwards received.
Admitting the principle of this to be just, he could not see any
The House should consider the tendency of this system.
good reason why it should not be extended; for what was this
There must be thus annually laid before parliament the whole
te
but a mere shift to levy a duty on all species of bequeathed
state of our commercial prosperity and adversity. A man
property ? If this should succeed, he would dare to say the
might lose upon one branch and gain upon another; he
mode would be deemed an eligible one. He then took no-
might have a partner in the one case, and he might be con-
tice of property in the funds. There was, indeed, a solitary
cerned alone in the other, and he might bequeath a legacy
act of parliament which recognized the practice of recurring
to the partner who had sustained this loss; then there must
to it as an object of taxation. 13ut he did not think that just;
be a deduction of six per cent. out of such bequest. This,
for when we funded a debt we contracted with the holder of
perhaps, was an injustice which was not intended, but it was
it, that he should enjoy it without diminution by a tax
an evil that was inseparable from the very nature of the bill,
while he lived, and that he should bequeath it to his posterity.
and therefore could not be avoided. Now, he would ask,
He thought, therefore, there was a considerable objection to
how it was possible for a man to give an account ad valorem
that measure; but there was a great deal more to this. He
of the profits of a trade complicated with a thousand circum-
thought, also, that there was a great deal of force in the ob-
stances? And how this account was to be made to govern-
jection of the worthy magistrate about not bringing forward
ment without the whole of the circumstances of that trade
the other bill with regard to the tax on landed property.
being made known to the public ? In short, made known to
He saw no good reason why they should be separated, but
every man in the world who should choose to inquire into
many why they should be kept together, and chiefly that the
them ? With regard to the practicability of estimating the
House might see the real extent of the plan upon this sub-
value of property under this bill, suppose, for instance, a
ject; and by applying it to landed property, the impracti,-
certain capital left between six persons, the interest of
eability of doing any thing like justice in the execution of it
which only was to be enjoyed by one at a time : suppose it
would be more striking.
should go to the uncle in the first instance, the brother in the
He lamented, indeed, that the House was so indifferently
second, the nephew in the third, until the whole capital be
attended; but that was a thing which he had reason to la*
made absolutely in the sixth person in succession. How could
m eat upon subjects of greater moment, even than the present.
the claim be made on the part of government ? If it be laid
-Re did not see any necessity of postponing this bill for four
upon the capital in the first instance, it must reduce the value
alenths; four weeks would be sufficient for the House to make
of the interest of the legacy to the first annuitant, while a
'IP Its mind on the subject. But both the bills should be de-
calculation must be made of the lives of the other parties,
bated touether, and the House ought not to pass this without
which could never be precisely determined, on account at
e
ic"wingb whether they could ever pass the other. He had
various accidents. In case of any contingently happening t°
'eallY objections to the particular provisions of the bill, but
L 2
179 6. ]
ItIOTION RESPECTING BARRACKS, &C.
I48 DUTIES ON LEGACIES OF PERSONAL ESTATES. [April 5.
149
they were all as nothing when compared to his objections to
found to be impracticable, and then the present tax would
the general principle. The idea of an ad valorem estimate or
in cur the charge, at least, of being partial. Upon this ground
taxation on a man's property was repugnant to sense and kis_
he moved, " That the debate be adjourned till this day
Lice in any country, but particularly in such a state as ours,
foriiii
g tol
i
where it was impossible to calculate the inconveniences to
which it would give birth. It might, for aught any man
The Douse divided on Mr. Fox's motion :
could say to the contrary, endanger even the very existence
Tellers.
f Mr. G yers
of our commerce. Indeed, he wondered that the House,
1 16.—NOES { S TOelileleirtOs; Gen
YEAS Mr. Ald. Newnham j
A'Ir. Hobart . v4.
which had in it so many men well acquainted with the nature
So it passed in the negative.
of commerce, felt so easy under a measure so alarming as this.
Feeling so many objections as he did to this tax, and wish-
ing the people to understand its nature better than he believed
they did at present-, he should at all events vote for some de-
lay i11 this business. He, indeed, was confident that a sense
of his duty to the public would command him to vote for the
rejection of the bill altogether. He -should now, however,
GENERAL SMITH'S MOTION RESPECTING THE EXPENDITURE
only desire that this bill should be delayed until the oth
OF PU- BLIC MONEY IN BARRACKS.
bill for taxing landed property should 'be laid before t
April 8.
House,
•
t
Mr. Alderman Newnham's motion was rejected, on a division,
THIS day General Smith moved, " That it be referred to a com-
l. mittee, to examine into the expenditure of public money in
by 46 against 16.
the construction and furnishing of barracks since the year 1 790 ;
as also to investigate by what authority such an expence, amount-
ing to upwards of one million sterling, has been incurred." The
April 5.
general affirmed, that 1,4 00,0001. had been employed upon them.
The patronage accruing from them to ministry was the appoint-
On the motion, that the bill do pass,
ment of no less than fifty-six officers for their management, with
considerable salaries. The number of barracks already constructed
Mr. Fox said, that he did not mean to trouble the House
were sufficient for the reception of 34,000 men, which were more
than a peace-establishment by 14,00o. Did not such a measure,
with any observations, either'upon the principle of the bill or
he asked, tend to impress the strongest conviction upon the public,
any of its clauses, though he was clearly of opinion, that if the
that ministry were determined, in the words of one of their princi-
principle was followed up to its full extent, it would put an
pal members, to exert " a vigour beyond the law ?"— Mr. Wind-
end to that commercial prosperity, which, impaired as it at
ham, the secretary at war, admitted the expellees of the barracks
present was, still enabled us to support those burdens to which
to be great, but the importance of the object in view required them:
we were subjected. It had been said, that this bill was of a simi-
their intent was to exonerate publicans, and people of that descrip-
lar nature with another intended to be brought into parliament,
tion, from the heavy charges to which they had so long and so un-
proposing a corresponding tax upon land. What he meant
reasonably been liable, and of which they had so often and so
J u
now to propose, was to postpone the third reading of this bill,
stly complained. The necessity of procuring public-houses for
the reception of soldiers on their march occasioned sundry incon-
till the propriety and practicability of the other should have
veniences, which these barracks were calculated to remove : they
been discussed. The principle of both was allowed to be the
Would afford shelter, and a temporary stay, when necessary, with-
same ; but the provisions of each, from their nature, must be
out p roducing trouble and expence to innkeepers and others, who
different. Allowing the principle to be just, if the provisions
kept places of accommodation on the roads. In the event of a
of the other bill were found, upon discussion, to be impracti-
Peace, they need not contain any larger numbers than would be
cable, he asked, in what situation the House would be placcu •
requisite for the usual establishment ; but while the war lasted, the
They would have sanctioned a tax upon personal property,
thspensible necessity of holding men in readiness, in such critical
which, it was allowed, ought equally to attach upon real pro-
kept as the present, and the lesser expence at which they were
'eP t together, with much more comfort and convenience to them.
perty; but, perhaps, the tax upon real property might be
L 3
411.
150
MOTION RESPECTING THE EXPENDITURE [April 8•
/ 796.]
OF PUBLIC MONEY IN BARRACKS.
15 I
selves, and utility to the public, than by the former method of quar.
iples i of i the liberty, whose animating influence, ought,
tering them, were, he presumed, sufficient arguments in favour of
say, to inspire t le soldiers of a free country ? They ought
barracks ; nor would he omit the propriety of removing soldiers
to be taught disobedience. God forbid that
from the danger of being contaminated by the seditious dispo,
1
11):1:,1csays he,'
sition of the lower classes.— In reply to Mr. Windham,
they should ! but is it not a plain proposition, that indiscrimi-
nate obedience is not the duty of an Englishman, whether he
be a soldier or any other citizen ? `L' here commands are il-
Mr.. Fox rose and said I am happy, Sir, that the right
legal, it is his duty to resist them. The right honourable
honourable gentleman opposite to me, as being particularly
gentleman, surely, does not intend to say, that his troops
connected with the department to which belongs the cogni-
should be altogether deaf. If he does, it will be in vain fbr
zance of that which is the object of this evening's discussion,
him to look fin. an army in this country, possessed of this phy-
has thought proper to come forward in so full and explicit a
sical advantage. He must call in foreign mercenaries. Ig-
manner. I am, at the same time, proud to confess, that I differ
norant of any language but their own, they would be suffici-
with him upon almost all the points which he has advanced,
ently deaf for all the purposes of despotism. It would be
and have no hesitation to declare in what that difference con-
enough that they should understand their officers, and might
sists, though I do not intend to go at length into the consider-
easily be brought, as in former times has been attempted, to .
ation of all of them. He has, however, alluded to one general
act against this House and the general liberties of the
principle that particularly claims my attention; and in doing
so, has noticed an expression of mine on a former occasion,
c"ExtrLsively of what I have already urged, I differ in this
made use of when I advanced a general principle, which I
question, upon the point of prudence and policy. If one sys-
always have entertained, and ever shall entertain, a principle
tem be more corrupt and inimical to freedom than another,
which he himself formerly espoused, and which I believe to be
it is the system of barracks. What was actually the case in
espoused by almost all those with whom I have the honour of
France ? Was not the mode in which their army was can-
acting. I mean the general principle of resistance; the right
toned out in barracks a principal operative cause in pro-
inherent in freeman to resist arbitrary power, whatever shape
ducing the Revolution ? It is beyond all belief astonishing,
it may assume, whether it be exerted by an individual, by a
that while we' declaim so violently upon the state to which
senate, or by a king and parliament united. This I proclaim
France has been reduced, we are at the same time pursuing
as my opinion. In the support of this principle I will live and
those very same measures which are likely to bring us every
die. The discussion of this principle is not necessarily in-
day nearer to a similar situation. The right honourable gen-
volved in the present question ; I shall therefore content myself,
tleman speaks of those who preach up doctrines hostile to the
for the present, with thus again fairly stating it.
constitution : but permit me to say, that it is not Mr. Paine,
The right honourable gentleman has also brought forward
nor much more ingenious men than he, who by any thing they
another general question, more closely connected with the sub-
say can injure the constitution. Those are its real enemies
sect of debate, but at the same time not altogether necessary
who are constantly making practical comments upon such
in its decision: I speak of the connection which ought to sub-
authors. Those who, with me, admire our constitution, arc
sist between the military and the rest of their countrymen.
of opinion, that, if strictly adhered to, it has sufficient energy
Upon this point I am, indeed, proud to differ with the right
to defend and preserve itself. Paine says that our constitution
honourable gentleman. " Because," says he, " there are bad
is a mere farce, a mockery; that there is no real check upon
men and bad principles abroad in the country, the military
the exercise of the powers of government. Do not ministers
must be secluded from the society of their fellow-subjects." He
practically say the same? Do they not, day after day, year
then most aptly introduces the language of the Mock Doctor,
after year, pass acts in direct violation of the acknowledged
and says, " If I cannot make others dumb, I can make them
polrinciple
;iitloiecoinpl These
estf
constitution? Their manifest breach of the
deaf." I will place them entirely out of reach, where no such
appropriation act, as lately proved, must be fresh in our recol-
doctrine shall assail their ears. What, Sir, is the full meaning
iese deviations they pretend to justify on the plea
and extent of this doctrine ? Can tile right honourable gen-
necessity. this plea is at any time to be received with
tleman make his troops partially deaf? Can he prevent them
Jealousy, it must be in the present instance ; and it is indeed
from listening to the voice of sedition, without, at the same,
curious to observe the language by which this measure is at-
time, shutting them up from the knowledge,of those genept!
tempted to be defended. In the mode of ()Tooting the
L 4
MOTION RESPECTING THE EXPENDITURE [April 8
179 6.]
OF PUBLIC MONEY TN BARRACKS'.
153
money, says the right honourable gentleman, there may pos-
pence in the present instance is unquestionably great ; and
sibly have occurred some deviation from strict form, but no-
how is it attempted to be justified? We are told that the
thing has been done substantially prejudicial. What! is it
different circumstances occasioning it were unforeseen. This,
from him that such language was to be expected ? From
if any, is the only excuse which can be made: but
him who has a sanctified horror at every thing which bears
mark
the inconsistency, observe the application of this ex-
the semblance of reform? From him who on the subject ora
c
iiuladsreeked'
t o the manner in which the subject has been treated this
reform in the representation, trembled at the bare idea of tak-
evening. We are told that barracks were erected, and ex-
ing one step towards innovation ? Is he the person who
pence incurred upon the spur of the occasion. This is the
comes forward and tells us that forms may be dispensed with ?
excuse; but not satisfied with this, the right honourable
But let us sec what is actually the form, as it is called, which
gentleman, in the same breath, enters into an elaborate jus-
we are desired thus to dispense with. Are we not rather de-
tification of the propriety of keeping them up as a permanent.
sired to dispense with a fundamental principle of the consti-
source of expellee. He informs us, that necessity produced
tution ? Are we not desired to dispense with the exercise of
all this of a sudden, and at the same time assures us that it
that control which we ought to have over the public purse,
has been long a matter of experience, that the military could
and called upon to sanction those expellees which never ob-
not be properly accommodated in any other manner. The:
tained our consent? The constitution says, that money can-
plan has avowedly been long in agitation, but ministers hate
not be raised without the consent of parliament. Has that
never thought proper, as they ought to have done, to bring
not been done in the present instance ? I ask, is it, or is it
it regularly before this House. They have, on the contrary,
not, a principle to be advanced and supported in this House,
incurred all the expence, and gone on in the prosecution of
that where considerable expence is to be incurred, leave for
an extensive system, not only without the authority, but in
that purpose is to be obtained from parliament, and not from
absolute defiance of parliament. -When I talk of erecting
the executive government ? When the question of barracks
barracks on a system, the right honourable gentleman may
was under the contemplation of government, should it not
perhaps not chuse to understand me. I remember a dispute
have been solemnly brought before parliament, have under-
I had with him upon the laws of nations. Those he treated
gone that grave consideration which the importance of the
with very little ceremony, and seemed to be of a similar
subject demanded, and not merely be laid before them for their
opinion with Citizen Genet, who thought that without any
approbation, atter all the expencc has been incurred? In the.
great loss, they might all be thrown into the sea. If this
common affairs of life, if a servant comes to his master want-
system is to be defended, and defended in such a manner as
ing I cool. for any particular purpose, the master would na-
I have heard this night, we may dispose in the same manner
turall y deliberate on the propriety and necessity of the pro-
of all the laws of England. 'We may, when we please, throw
posed measure; but, were his steward to inform him he had
into the sea, the commentaries of Mr. Justice Blackstone,
actually expended a few thousand pounds in such and such
and the brilliant speeches on this subject delivered by the
a way, the master, I p •esutne, would be apt to startle at this
late Lord Chatham. We are triumphantly told, that our
being done without his previous consent; and were the steward
ancestors gave their occasional consent to such a measure.
to justify his conduct, by saying he considered that as a
What ! can the right honourable gentleman say, there is any
mere matter of form, the master would no doubt give his ser-
resemblance between small cantonments partially taking place,
vant to understand, that such forms were not to be dispensed
and the whole army of this country being constantly secluded
with. The steward might then be induced to justify himself
from the rest of the inhabitants, and shut up in permanent
on the score of necessity. Cases might certainly occur where
barracks ? I certainly do not ask much upon the present
such a plea might be admissible, but they must be cases.
occasion, when I state it as my opinion, that before we in-
neither of any great magnitude, nor where the same purpose
troduce innovations contrary to the avowed doctrines of
could be equally well effected in a different and more satis-
..1r. Justice Blackstone and other constitutional writers, par-
l
factory manner.
iament ought to be consulted, ought to have time for deli-
be
We are told that the magnitude of the expence is nothing,
ration, and ought to have given its solemn decision.
for that ail state expenses must be great; but I have always
Great reliance has been placed upon the argument, that
this
understood, that in proportion to the magnitude of the ex-
subject was actually discussed in the debate upon a
pence, is the propriety of instituting an inquiry. The eN-
motion brought forward by my honourable friend who spoke
3
1 54
MOTION RESPECTING THE EXPENDITURE [April 8.
OF PUBLIG MONEY IN BARRACKS.
155
1796.]
last, (Mr. M. A. Taylor.) That motion was for the pur-
but that of forwarding ministerial elections. There is an
pose of passing a resolution, that such a system as was then
ostensible and a secret purpose combined. It is, in the lan-
entered into of erecting barracks, was contrary to the prac-
,uaae of the right honourable gentleman himself, like a the-
n
tice and example of our ancestors. What was then done by
ltrical dress, where the gold and embroidery serve to conceal
the House? They did not put a direct negative upon it,
e dirt and dowlas beneath. The right honourable gentle-
but got rid of it by the order of the day. Can this be called
man tells us, that no barrack-masters were appointed without
a solemn decision of parliament, upon the principle of this
an intention of erecting barracks. I hardly, indeed, could
measure? The most that can be said of it is, that they did
suppose that they would be so absurd as to appoint barrack-
not disapprove of what was immediately doing; but that
masters without any intention at all. He allows, however,
decision gave no countenance whatever to the unauthorized
that there were three instances where no duty whatever was
expenditure of public money. I very well recollect, that that
performed. He has appealed to the honour of the gentleman
debate, in which I took 'a share, by no means turned upon
e
at tb head of that department, the barrack-master-general,
the principle, but upon the words .of the motion. The right
for the propriety and economy of the manner in which the
honourable gentleman has certainly logic enough to perceive
business is conducted. Does he not recollect, that to pledge
the difference, and to allow that the denial of any particular
a man's honour is not the most honourable mode of account-•
proposition is not an universal affirmation of its opposite.
Mg? and that to such a man it may be answered, I have no
But how stands this question with the constitution? its op-
intention of disputing the point of honour, but I want to
posers say it is but a name, but a mockery of a constitu-
know what you have done with the money ? For these different
tion. How many melancholy facts daily occur to justify the
reasons I exceedingly approve of appointing a committee of
assertion ! Large sums are,expended, without consulting par-
inquiry; and if it still be resisted, I do say, however liable
liament, without bringing forward any estimate whatever;
I may make myself to invidious observations, that we have
a thing surely not difficult to be obtained. An argument
but a mockery of a constitution. If ministers disregard all
has, with propriety, been adduced from the civil list. The
fundamental principles, if this House calmly tolerate their
king has it not in his power to make any arrangement in his
excesses, if the power of raising and applying money be
parks or pleasure grounds, where a salary is to be given to
exercised, not by the House of Commons but the king's
the amount of 5 ooi. without an order passing the sign ma-
ministers, what is our constitution, but a farce and a mockery?
nual, and being approved by the lords of the treasury. I
We hear, Sir, many orations upon the necessity of obe-
applaud this with reluctance, as I do any thing relative to
dience and subjection to the laws; but if those at the head
the management of the civil list. But I have not heard of
of the government paid equal deference to the laws, with the
any estimate on the subject of barracks being approved by
other orders of the community, we should have little reason
the lords of the treasury; if there has, why has it not been
to complain. Example would avail ten times more than
presented to this House?
precept. It is strange that those who have the law constantly
The right honourable gentleman seems to hold all argu-
in their mouths, should, with equal perseverance, be acting
ments of fact extremely cheap. He says, he understands
in direct opposition to it. My honourable friend who spoke
our manner on this side of the House. I think he was long
before me, illustrated this subject by an allusion to what passed
enough with us to understand our sentiments too; and he
on the fortification act. The illustration was certainly in
point. if this House had not entered into the examination
s)
ouoht to know, that when we talk of the increase of pa-
tronage, it is not as a mere matter of declamation, but as an
of that system previous to its being carried into execution,
object of serious apprehension and danger to the liberties of
what would have been the consequence? Would it have met
the country. He defends himself by saying, What ! would
with the fate which it experienced ? By no means. Had
you deprive the poor officer of this his last resource? I know
the expence been first incurred, and the plan brought for-.
not how many worthy objects may be selected to fill such
ward afterwards, this House, I believe, would have acceded
situations under government, but I do venture to say, on
to the measure. I am not, indeed, so sanguine as to imagine,
imagine,
good authority, that many are appointed for no real purpose
that the barrack-system would, in these degenerate days,
been resisted, even if it had been brought forward in a way
equally regular. But at all events, ministers would have
a
See Vol. p.49.
cted more openly mid avowedly in the business : and if it
156
MOTION RESPECTING THE REGULATION [April
1796.]
OF SLAVES IN THE WEST INDIES.
157
had been carried, it would have been, as it . ought, an act of
dominion of his majesty, his heirs, or successors." After the
the legislature, and not merely of the executive government.
motion had been opposed by Mr. Serjeant Adair,
The only tools which ministers seem not to think dangerous
are edge-tools; they play with them with all the com1;lacency
r.
M Fox rose and said : — The case, Sir, which we have
an
imaginable. I repeat, that the maintaining of a standing
now before us is unquestionably one of very.considerable mag-
army in this country, and dissolving the connection between
nitude. I am still, however, ready, when called upon, to
the soldier and the citizen, is a subject of the highest delicacy,
(rive a decided opinion upon the subject, and to show the rea-
of the greatest intricacy, and is not thus wantonly to he
sons upon which that opinion is formed. Before I enter upon
sported with by ministers, without condescending to consult
the discussion of the question, it is impossible for me not to
the wisdom of parliament. We seem to have thrown away
premise, that whatever may be the result of the motion, the
all that constitutional jealousy which ought ever to be awake
House and the public cannot fail to be gratified with the
in a free country. We have sacrificed it to a false alarm.
abilit y and philanthrophy of the honourable mover, and must
The exorbitant power and influence of the crown in this
ever do honour to his humane intentions. It is undoubtedly
country must ever be pregnant with danger to its liberties:
a question attended with many and serious difficulties, and
In better times than these, the opinion was that it ought to
nothing of an extraneous nature ought, if possible, to be in-
be curtailed; and, in the present day, is there no ground.
troduced or enlarged upon ; the attention ought not to be
for a continued and watchful jealousy ? On the contrary, the
diverted from the main object immediately submitted to our
more power we give, there is the greater cause for jealousy.
decision. I cannot, however, refrain from taking notice of
Such was always the opinion of our ancestors; such ought to
what has been said relative to this country or America, being
be our opinion ; and before ministers dared, in the present
the proper asylum where the friends of freedom may expect to
instance, upon a plea of necessity, to trample upon the rights
find themselves secure from the encroachments of arbitrary
of Englishmen, it would have been but decent, even for
power, and the miseries of unjust oppression. My honoura-
form's sake, to have given this House an opportunity of
ble and learned friend opposite to me has talked of the bless-
exercising its deliberative functions, before a measure was
ings of this free constitution, and the advantages resulting
carried into execution so hostile to the general freedom and
from it to those who live under
ler it. Such things may have
existed ; but, if I am to speak of our constitution as it now
happiness of the nation.
exists, if the retrograde movement which has commenced is
The motion was also supported by Mr. M. A. Taylor, Mr. Wil
suffered to continue, if the present system of government is
ham Smith, Mr. Courtenay, Mr. Grey, and Mr. Sheridan. The
persevered in, there is an end of all those blessings ; we may
House divided :
go any where else we please in search of true liberty. Let us
Tellers.
Tellers.
look back, Sir, to the year 178 4 ; let us trace the progress of
Mr. Sheridan
(Mr Steele
ministers at different periods, but let us particularly consider
YEAS
.
NOES Mr. Sargent} 9"
{ Mr. M. A. Taylor 1 24' —
what has passed in the present session, and we must perceive
So it passed in the negative.
such enormous alterations in this constitution, that those who
were formerly acquainted with it, could not possibly know it
again. America is said to have a new and untried constitu-
tion: the observation may be just; but I cannot help think-
ing, that from the late wonderful innovations, the constitution
of this country may practically be said to be of a later date,
Mr. FRANCIS'S MOTION RESPECTING THE BETTER REGU-
than even that of America or any other country whatever.
LATION OF SLAVES IN THE WEST INDIES.
Upon this, however, I shall not enlarge farther at present.
As to the object of my honourable friend's motion, it seems
April I t.
to be admitted, that the principles upon which it is supported,
are of the most desirable nature. So much, indeed, do I con-
MHIS day Mr. Francis moved, " That leave be given to bring
ceive this to be the case, that I think it unnecessary to argue
in a bill for the better regulation and improvement of the
upon the wisdom of them, considered in an abstract point of
state and condition of negroes and other slaves, in the islands,
colonies, or plantations in the West Indies or Amdrica, under the
view. He has likewise admitted that the improvements he
looks up to, must be of a gradual nature; and he has cer-
5 S
MOTION RESPECTING Tut REGULATION [April f
1796.]
OF SLAVES IN TILE WEST INDIES.
159
tainly hit upon the most solid and natural basis on which to
cure success ? The plan too, Sir, was defeated, after a
build his future superstructure, when he 'proposes to emu-
this s
solemn
cm ni ndecision
parliament ; and having disgraced them-
mencc his operations by establishing a system of property'
ofi
aneful manner, what right have Ito hope that
among the negroes. Independently, then, of the principles
another occasion will soon be presented for the attainment of
abstractedly considered, the chief questions seem to be; first,
this desired object? What, then, does my honourable friend
how far in a prudential point of view, it is wise in my ho-
prop • •
forget
? That the House will not totally foret all those
nourable friend to bring forward the proposition he has now
honourable, humane sentiments they have formerly uttered
Clone, as connected with, and introductory to the final aboli-
upon the occasion ; but that if they are not inclined to fulfil
tion of the slave trade ; and secondly, what arc the means by
all they have promised, they will at least shew a desire of
which he intends his principles to be carried into practice ?
doing something.
My honourable and learned friend who spoke last, seemed
I now come to consider the nature of the means by which
to consider this as a debate upon the propriety of adopting the
my honourable friend proposes to carry his proposition into
proposition now made to the House, or of deciding for a total
execution ; and upon this undoubtedly the whole difficulty
abolition. how happy should I feel were that actually the
rests. The right of taxation and of general legislation have, I
case, and with how little hesitation should I prefer a total
conceive, been improperly confounded together. They are,
abolition ! I do not consider that my giving my vote one way or
to all intents and purposes, practically different. This dif-
the other this evening, is to be considered as an instance of my
ference was constantly acknowledged in the great question of
receding one step from the ground which I have always taken
American independence. The Americans never found fault
on the question of the entire abolition of the slave trade. I have
with our legislative acts, until they involved the question of
pledged myself to the House upon that point. Those honourable
taxation. Lord Chatham, in a speech which he made in this
gentlemen who have been equally, if not more strenuous than
House, and I do honour to his memory for the sentiment,
myself in this cause, I do not presume have any intentions of
said, that he rejoiced in the resistance made by America, to
abandoning it ; but sure I am, that no session shall pass,
every attempt to tax her, for the purposes of revenue : and
while I have the honour of sitting in this House, without my
in the very same speech he added, (I do not say I go all that
exertions being employed to accelerate this desirable event.
length with him,) that he nevertheless would not permit any
I, for one, 'am determined not to contribute to the increase or
matter of commerce to take place, not even a hob-nail to be
perpetuation of that stigma which must ever be attached to
made in America, without the sanction of the British legisla-
this House and to this country, while that abominable traffic
ture. I mention this chiefly to shew the distinction that has
is permitted to exist. If, Sir, we were at the beginning of a
been made betwen legislative acts of the one kind and the
session, and there was any solid hope that an abolition was
other; but in the American dispute there was a difference
likely to take place, I would yield to the argument of my
taken, not only between acts of general legislation and of
honourable and learned friend : but the bill introduced for
taxation, but between acts of taxation for the purposes of in-
that purpose has been lost. I know not exactly, if the forms
ternal regulation, and acts of taxation for the increase of the
of the House admit of the introduction of another, for the ac-
revenue. Acts of taxation for the regulation of the Post-
complishment of the same object; or if they did, I sec no
office were quietly acquiesced in. It was only when we
certainty of better success. When I look forward, I see
offered them the alternative to accept or refuse indiscrimi-
little rational ground of hope, particularly when I reflect upon
nately acts of every description passed by the British senate,
the characters and situation of some men who were in the
that they discovered signs of serious resistance.
minority on the late question. To say, that men of the
With respect to the West Indies, we have already re-
greatest power and influence in the country, and of unques-
nounced every right of taxation. My learned friend says, we
tionably- great abilities, -could throw little weight into the
Have no right of this kind. So do I. But he says, that he is
scale in the consideration of any question would indeed be ri-
not ready to admit in what respects legislative acts of any
diculous. What was actually the case? The question was
other nature may be passed, and he has brought forward the
introduced during the administration and with the approba-
case of Ireland as in point upon this question. The act passed
fou .t
tion of a man, who surely had neither less influence nor less
een years ago put that matter right as to Ireland. In
personal talents than any of his predecessors, and yet the plan
1,10 instance could the difference between acts of legislation and
has failed. If this be so, when, where, how' are we to pro'
taxation be more clearly ascertained. I from this source
6o
MOTION RESPECTING THE REGULATION [April
1796.]
OF SLAVES IN THE WEST INDIES.
161
drew my arguments during the American war. In every case
are any such objects to be compared with that of removing
either of external or internal regulation, the Irish were per.
the national dishonour, which must ever be connected with
fectly submissive; but if the bare intention of raising a tax for
the support and continuance of this trade in any of its
the purpose of revenue had gone abroad, it would inevitably
have produced resistance. I must confess, at the same tii*
branches ? I shall for these reasons unquestionably vote
for the introduction of this bill.
that to legislate for colonies, is at no time desirable ; it ;ought
Were any person to give me a reasonable ground to hope
only to be done when necessity calls for it. How far is this
that an abolition of the slave trade would speedily take place ;
the case at present ? I do not wish, it must be observed,
were it held out to me that any other step would be taken
upon this occasion, to repeat the mere letter of the law. My,
towards an amelioration of the state of the slaves in the
learned friend, and every other professional man, would cer-
`'nest Indies ; were I to be told that a recommendation should
tainly tell me, that a statute that relates to any transaction as
come from the throne to effect the desirable purpose, I might
passing in Jamaica, would be as binding as if it took place in
perhaps be silent upon this occasion ; but let me no longer
Middlesex ; but I am not fond of unnecessarily exercising this
hear of expectations from the acts of colonial assemblies !
legislative authority over persons not actually represented, and
When I look at the infernal code of laws under which the
where the local situation is almost totally unknown. But we
poor negroes languish, when I see they are not considered -•
are at present reduced to an unfortunate dilemma, and I am
as men, and reflect one moment upon the penalties to which
obliged to put this question to myself, " Whether it be better
they arc subjected, and the oppression under which they
to make use of a partial remedy which may in some respects
labour, I expect nothing from assemblies who give counte-
be exceptionable, or permit the evil in its full extent to con-
nance to such proceedings.
tinue ?" I have been accused of throwing out the threat of
It was urged as an argument by my learned friend, that the
independence upon the subject of the \\Vest India islands. I
question of abolition to which he so heartily gives his assent,
do, in answer to that, most decidedly affirm, that if it were
by no means involves the dispute on the right of legisla-
to become a question, whether these islands should be con-
tion, but that every provision in that bill comes within the
nected with this country, and in consequence of that connec-
acknowledged authority of this House; but permit me to say,
tion, all the stigma attending the abominable system of slavery
that the opposers of that bill, and some of them high in au-
should be ignominiously continued, or that their complete inde-
thority, constantly held out as an argument of some weight,
pendence should take place, I should not have one doubt on
the opinion which those immediately upon the spot in the
the subject. I am by no means blind to the danger of such a
West Indies, or immediately connected with them, might
separation. I desire it not: but if the colonies were inclined
entertain upon the subject. This, therefore, is no fair ground
to refuse their assent to so wise and humane a proposition as
for opposing my honourable friend's motion. As to the
has now been made for the amelioration of the state of the
question of representation, the West Indies are not, properly
slaves, I should not feel myself inclined to employ either
speaking, represented in this House, nor is it practicable, •
armies or navies to reduce them to subjection, but would, in
perhaps, that they should be so ; neither is Ireland ; neither
the language of a • gentleman, who, though not present, I
Was America. As to their representation in the West
cannot name, as being a member of this House, desire them
Indies, it might be called a pure representation -of property,
to " go and be happy in their ON111 way," if happiness could
in consequence of the number of blacks. But we ou ht, in
be found by acting contrary to every principle of justice, policy,
g
this case, to consider the difference between a real and a
and humanity.. If, however, it be acknowledged that the
virtual representation, and the proportion which, in this
British parliament has the power of general legislation, and
respect, the West Indies bear to any other instance known in
that it may in some cases of necessity be exercised, I ask,
this country. Were we even to bring to our recollection the
what case of greater necessity can be put, than a case which
time when so many Irish landholders residedin this country,
involves the character and honour of the British name ?
and held seats in this House, and when so much land in Ire-
have occasionally said, that a war to preserve our honour is
'and was tinder mortgage in this country, yet would that bear
the only justifiable war. Even this principle, were it neces-
nu proportion to the power and influence of West India pro-
sary, I should not find myself at a loss to support; but if in
nrnile,Ototr.svIt.it the present moment. A country may, undoubt-
any case a legislative act is demanded for the purposes of in-
ealy, be virtually represented. I do not say it is in every
terest, policy, aggrandisement, or the increase of commerce,
31
162 MOTION RESPECTING THE REGULATIO7'1", 8;..c. [April 1/,
/796.3
DUTY ON SUCCESSION TO REAL ESTATES.
163
instance the-best mode ; but standing where I now do, I must
likely to take place, I find myself under the necessity of
acknowledge the fact; and, surely, if any country was ever
voting for the motion of my honourable friend. .
virtually represented, it is the West Indies in this House.
Does not every gentleman who hears me, feel, from the fate
The motion was negatived without a division..
of the bill for the abolition of the slave trade, that they are
both virtually and powerfully represented in this House?
In short, Sir, no case can appear to me to call in a more
11•7101=11n3•nn••..1....0.1.11711•1n
pressing manner upon the legislative authority of the British
parliament than the present, unless we consider as nugatory
all we have ever heard, either from those who promote or
oppose the abolition of the slave trade. Good God Mr.
DUTY ON SUCCESSION TO REAL ESTATES.
Speaker, have we come to a solemn decision upon the sub-
ject, and yet pass year after year, without taking a single
Mcv 5.
measure to carry our resolutions into execution ? We are
guilty of hypocrisy of the basest sort. I am constrained to
nN the motion that the bill for granting a duty on succession
•-• to real estates in certain cases be immediately recommitted,
vote for any measure of the kind proposed, in order to prove
Mr. Rashleigh moved, that it be recommitted on that day three
that there is yet some sincerity left in the House of Commons.
months.
.I hoped, Sir, that my learned friend in opposing this mo-
tion, and with the anxiety he expresses for a total abolition,
Mr. Fox said, that this measure laboured under two ob-
would have thrown out some prospect of such an event being
jections; first, the novelty of the principle, as a tax upon
likely to take place ; but I am sorry to say, I see none such
capital.; and secondly, the iniquity of the application. It was
at the present period. After what took place in the year 1792,
a system which, if acted upon to the extent to which the prin-
and the subsequent flagrant breach of promise that has been
ciple might be carried, (and he admitted the present instance-
exhibited, all assurances coming from this House must na-
to be only a slight degree,) would enable the state to seize
turally be looked upon as vain and frivolous. At the same
upon the whole property of the country. Of all shapes in
time, I confess I even now think it would be something, were
which despotism had ever appeared in history, the most
the House, during the present session, to come to some solemn
frightful was that under which the sovereign became heir to
resolution on the subject. I have already said, that a vote on
the whole property of individuals ; and were the principle of
this question must necessarily be given with some degree of
this measure once admitted, it was impossible to calculate how
difficulty ; but I give mine clearly and conscientiously, because
far it might be extended. From brothers and relations in a
such a measure, with all the obstacles attending it, is less ob-
j
collateral line, it might in time reach to children, and from
ectionable, and less contrary to humanity and justice, than
four or five per cent. the tax might be increased to ten or
doing nothing to alleviate those miseries which are at th4
twelve. This was his principal objection to the bill. He
moment attached to slavery in the West Indict. Were an
had another, however, grounded upon the particular hard-
entire abolition of the trade to be proposed in 1796, or were
ship which would in certain cases attend its operations.
it now to be proposed at any fixed period, I should probably
In cases of marriage settlements, children were most fre-
object to any regulations of an inferior nature ; but the ques-
quently the objects fbr whom provision was made, but some-
tion of abolition is lost, and I have no option left. It is
times collateral relations had an interest in the settlement. A
deed, conic to this, that the British parliament have refused
case of that kind had come under his own experience. In
to abolish the abominable traffic in human flesh, and the
case of the death of his nephew, Lord Holland, he was to
slaves in the islands are to be left to the humanity of the
succeed to the estates of his elder brother, by an article in
West India proprietors ! If it were apparent from authentic
the marriage settlement. As it happened, he had not given
documents that the colonial assemblies would pass those acts
any consideration for the contingent benefit of this settlement.
which humanity demands, or that an abolition of the trade
Re might, however, have paid his brother some consider-
would be effected by parliament, there would be no occasion
ation for it, and in this case, were the tax to attach upon
for ally such measure as- the present ; but if no such thing is
this property, the contract would be violated, because he would
Hot receive it in the saine circumstances in Which it ftS When.
II 2
1,41
164 DUTY ON SUCCESSION TO REAL ESTATES. [May 9,
1 796.]
CHARGES AGAINST MINISTERS.
I 6S
he concluded the bargain. On these grounds he seconded the
minty of the possession than a son, whose father might dis-
amendment.
pose of what part of his estate he pleased. Upon the whole,
there was no principle of taxation more destructive than that
The question being put, that the word " immediately" stand
which tended to destroy forcibly the power of exchange and
part of the question, the House divided :
t ransmission, and thereby lessen the desire of acquisition.
Tellers.
Tellers.
And, as this bill encroached upon this principle, be hoped,
Solicitor-General } e
{Mr. Rashleigh
notwithstanding the result of former divisions, that the House
2+.
YEAS
05. — N OES
Mr. Douglas
Mr. Jekyll -
would consider seriously the consequences that might follow
from so new and unprecedented a system of taxation.
May 9.
The House divided on the motion, That the word " now" stand
part of the question :
On the motion, that the report of the committee on tbe said
Tellers.
Tellers.
bill be now taken into con,sideration, Mr. Crewe moved, that it
Attorney-General
,
Mr. Crewe
YEAS
0 I . — INOES
.
be taken into consideration on that day three months.
Mr. Ai MontaguLord Cavendish 2
Mr. Fox said, that all his objections to this measure re-
mained in full force. It was; in fact, what he had stated it,
a tax upon capital, for it was levied in proportion to that
capital. If it was really a tax upon income, why not fairly
lay it upon income? It was said, that it was to be paid by
MR. GREY'S CHARGES AG AINST MINISTERS, RELATIVE TO
instalments during the first four years, but if the same was
THE EXPENDITURE OF PUBLIC MONEY.
paid by the man who enjoyed four, and the man who enjoyed
forty years, it could not with propriety be said to be a tax
May 6.
upon income. In such a country as this, all taxes on capital
were particularly dangerous. He did not mean to undervalue
THIS day Mr. Grey brought forward several heavy charges
the constitution of this country, but he believed that much
against ministers. They had, he. said, violated the act of
of our prosperity might be owing to the complete disposal of
appropriation, the main pillar of the pecuniary privileges of par-
liament, by diverting the grants of money to other purposes than
property which was enjoyed. If this tax had been laid on
those for which they were voted, and they had endeavoured to
the transmission of property by sale, he believed no man
screen themselves by spurious accounts. He then detailed the
would have denied its bad effect ; but when freedom of •dis-
particulars in proof of his accusation, adding, that if the necessities
posal even at death was iMpaired by annexing burdens to the
or the times had compelled them to have recourse to such methods
transmission, the bad consequences would, in a certain degree,
for procuring money, they ought, without disguising the fact, to
be felt. In all cases where the payment of the tax depended
have applied to parliament for indemnity. The House of Com-
upon the terms of succession, production of deeds was in-
mons had, he said, been notoriously faulty in not setting limits to
evitable. Whether a brother succeeded as heir to bis brother
the extraordinaries durinp: the American war ; and the committee
a
or to his father, in a variety of possible cases, he would be
ppointed to examine and digest the public accounts had par-
ticularly pointed out the ruinous consequences of such negligence.
liable or not liable to the tax; of course, a minute examin-
Mr. Pitt bad censured it himself with peculiar severity, but bad
ation of settleimints would be necessary, if the tax was meant
nevertheless been more guilty than any of his predecessors. So
to be effectively levied. With regard to the levying of
determined was the House to put a stop to these infractions of its
oo,00d. by the tax, it was not the extent of this sum, but
rights, that it passed, in 1784, a resolution, that should parliament
the precedent that was thought to be dangerous: it might be
be dissolved before the act of appropriation had passed, to misapply
extended to direct succession; and he saw no difference in the
the money granted should be reputed a high misdemeanor. An
principle. It was said, there was less right to expect in the
act had also been passed under the present minister, to obviate the
cases subject to the tax ; but there were many instances where
bad consequences of balances remaining with -the paymaster-gene-
the expectation was greater in collateral than in direct descent,
Pi, and to provide for the constant pay of the army ; but this act
n..ad been notoriously infringed ; the paymaster having actually in
i
ail 04c ease of entails, wlore the heir bad a greater ccr-
hands a balance of eighty-three thousand pounds. Mr. Grey,
m 3
166 CHARGES AGAINST MINISTERS. [May 6.
1796.]
CHARGES AGAINST MINISTERS,
167
after mentioning other instances of misapplication, adverted to the
e general and staff officers of his majesty's forces, for the year.
disposition-paper, a species of voucher first used in the prodigal
was paid out of grants for the year 1796, although, by an
reign of Charles II. and established at the Revolution, as an au,
atlic;n'
passed In 17 94, money was granted for discharging the . said
thentic document, to inform parliament in what manner the sup.
stun ; and although the said act directs that the said money so
plies they had granted had been expended. This paper ,he eon,
granted shall be applied in discharging the same, and not other-
sidered as a mere deception ; its contents represented the sums
wise.
voted by parliament, as issued and applied conformably to its
" That it appears from an account produced to this House
intent, which was contrary to truth. This he might be told was
the 2 1st of April, 1796, that tile sum of 172,1oc/. due for off-
only a form ; but the practice was in fact directly opposite to the
reckonings, to the 2 4th of December, 17 94, and which remained
regulations enacted by the legislature, in order to preserve to
due on the 21st of January, 1796, was discharged out of the vote
itself the power over the national purse, against the attempts of
of credit granted for the express purpose of defraying expences
ministers to dispose of the nation's money at their own discre-
that may occur in 1796. By an act passed in 179 4, money was
tion. On these various premises, Mi. Grey moved the following
granted for discharging the said sum ; and although the said act
resolutions :
clirccts that the money so granted shall be applied in discharge of
" That at all times, and under all circumstances, it is the
the same, and not otherwise.
indispensable duty of the House of Commons vigilantly to super.
Tha t it appears to this House, that by an act passed in
intend the expenditure of the public money, and strictly to inquire
the 23d year of his majesty's reign, for the better regulation of the
into the application of the grants made by parliament to the service
office of paymaster-general of his majesty's forces, it is enacted,
for which they have been voted.
That no money for the service of the army shall be issued from
his majesty's exchequer to the paymaster-general of his majesty's
2. " That by an act passed in every session of parliament, the
particular sums granted for each particular service are specified,
forces, or shall be placed or directed to be placed in his majesty's
and the money that shall be paid into the exchequer is appro-
hands or possession ; but the same shall be issued and directed to
priated to their discharge : and that it is strictly directed that such
be paid to the governor and company of the bank of England, to
aids and supplies shall not be applied to any use, intent, or pur-
be placed to his account.
pose whatever, other than the uses and purposes mentioned in the
9. " That it appears to this House, from an account produced
on the 2
said act.
zd of April, 1796, that, in open contempt and defiance
That it appears from an account presented to this House
of the said act, the sum of 430,2ocd. has been issued directly to
"
,
on the gist of April, 1796, that the sum of 644,1o61. 7s. 9d. was
the paymaster-general of his majesty's forces, in exchequer bills,
then due to the several colonels or commanding officers of his ma-
on the vote of credit for 1796 ; and that a balance of 83,300/.
jesty's forces, for net off-reckonings and clothing for the years 1794
was remaining unissued in his hands on the said 22d of April,
1796.
and 1795, although, by acts passed in 1 7 94 and 1795, money was
granted to discharge the same; and although the said acts direct
" That it further appears to this House, that, by the said
that the money so granted shall be applied in discharge of the same,
act, the paymaster-general of his majesty's forces is directed and
and not otherwise.
required to form his memorials and requisitions to the treasury,
4. "'That it appears from an account presented to this Hose
and to issue his drafts upon the governor and company of the bank
on the z ist of April, 1796, that the slim of 146,900/. 12s.
of England, upon the. 24th day of June and 24th day of December
now due to the general and staff officers of his majesty's forces
in every year, in equal payments, to such person or persons as have
for the years 17 9 3, 1794, and 1795, although, by acts passed in
a regular assignment from the several colonels, lieutenant-colonels,
com
the said years, money was granted for' payment of the said sum:
mandants, majors, captains-commandant, and captains, for the
and although the said acts direct that the said money so granted
monies appropriated for the clothing of the non-commissioned
shall be applied in discharge of the said sum, and not otherwise.
officers and private men of his majesty's regular forces.
r "
5. " That it appears from an account presented to this House
That it appears to this House, that the sums of money
app r
on the a ist of April, 1796, that the sum of 34 , 3 131. I38. 3 d. is.
opriated for the clothing of his majesty's regular forces, and
wh ich, according to the provisions of the said act, ought to have
now due to the several governors, lieutenant-governors, and other
officers of his majesty's forces and garrisons, in Great Britain and
been issued on the 2 4th of December, 17944.the 2 4th of June and
parts beyond seas, for the years 1794. and 1795, although, by acts
24th of December, 17 95, had been directed to other purposes, and
still r
passed in the said years, money was granted for discharging the
emained due on the 1st of January, 1796, in open contempt
a
said sum ; and although the said acts direct that the money so
nd defiance of the said act.
, 1 2
granted shall be applied in discharging of the same, and not
. " That it appears, that an account is annually presented
c
otherwise
o this House, shewing flow the money granted for the service of
t
6. " That it appears from an account presented to the House
he preceding year has been disposed of; distinguished under the
sev
on. the zest of April, 17 96, that the sum of 31,0561. 3 d. clue to
eral heads, and the parts remaining unsatisfied, with the defi-
ciency thereupon.
51 4
163
CHARGES AGAINST MINISTERS.
[May 6.
r 796.]
CHARGES AGAINST MINISTERS.
169
13. " That such account was Intended to be, what in its title
was, that the right honourable gentleman had made great
it professes to be, a real account, shewing how the money given
xertion where there was the least occasion for exertion, in
e
for the service of the year had actually been disposed of, in order
point of real argument. Where his honourable friend who
that the House of Commons might be informed of the state of
had made the motion, had dwelt the least, and touched on
the public expenditure, and satisfy themselves as to the application.
of the money voted to those services for which it had been granted
• lts as being merely incidental, there the right honourable
p011 •
by them.
,tentleman had been the most elaborate in his answer. Where
14. " That an account of the above description has been pre-
his honourable friend had been the most forcible, there the
sented to this House in each of the years, 1794, 1795, and 1796,
right honourable gentleman had been the least explicit. The
in which the money granted for the services of each year is stated
truth of this matter was, the right honourable gentlemen had
to have been applied to the services for which it was voted by
said much on points which required but little, and very little
parliament, although it now appears, from accounts since presented
on those which required a good deal. The right honourable
to this House, that the sums of 644,1o61. granted for off-reckonings
gentleman, however, had been very methodical, and he
for the years 1794 and 1795 ; the burn of 1 46,9001. granted for the
pay of the general and staff officers of his majesty's forces for 1793,
sh ould endeavour to follow him in the order he had adopted.
The part on which the right honourable gentleman was the
1 794, and 1795 ; the sum of 34,3131. granted for the pay of the
several governors, lieutenant-governors, and other officers of his
the most successful, was that which went simply to state,
majesty's forces in Great Britain and parts beyond seas, for the
that tile whole which had been clone by administration, against
years 1794 and 1795, and severally stated to have been disposed
the letter of the law, was the result of necessity. On this
of for those services, still remain unsatisfied.
he had justified the whole of his extraordinaries, upon the ex-
15. " That, in the instances above mentioned,, his majesty's
tent of which his honourable friend had spoken so ably that
ministers have been guilty of presenting ffilse accounts, calculated
day. Now, if any gentleman had heard the speech of the
to mislead the judgment of this House, of a flagrant violation of
minister that night, without hearing that of his honourable
various acts of parliament, and of a gross misapplication of the
friend, that was to say, whoever had heard the defence,
public money."
without hearing the Accusation, would have thought that the
The reply, made by Mr. Pitt, stated, that though ministers were
bound faithfully to appropriate the public money to the purposes
accusation was merely the incurring of any extraordinaries at
specified, yet there were a multiplicity of cases wherein that rule
all, not that they had been incurred improvidently, or that
could not strictly be observed. Services of the most critical im-
they had been withheld improperly from the House, or
portance, and the most imperious necessity, often compelled them
that when incurred or provided for, the money voted for
to deviate from the letter of the act of appropriation : but was
them had not been applied to their discharge. 'With respect
that, or was any other act, to stand in the way of material services
to army extraordinaries, he would first say, in a general way;
due to the nation by those who were entrusted with its safety and
that, to a certain degree, they- were evils unavoidable. He
preservation ? These deviations were founded on wise precedents,
said this without diffidence, because extraordinaries had been
and sanctioned as just, by long and repeated experience. Ex-
recognized by the House of Commons, precisely under the
traordinaries were the inevitable attendants of war, especially such
description which he was then giving of them. The minister
an one as the present, which requiring unprecedented exertions,
justified unprecedented methods of conducting it. Mr. Pitt ad-
himself had in his speech of that day admitted extraordinaries
duced a number of facts to prove that he had acted comformably
to be an evil, but had contended that they were necessary.
to the practice authorized in former wars. The very act of ap-
This was the answer which he gave to that part of the charge,
propriation, he said, evinced the propriety of extraordinaries, by
although by what he had said, he had admitted them to be,
making good several millions expended under that head; and no
to a certain degree, contrary to the principles of our con-
objection was ever made to the principle itself.
stitution. He must therefore contend, ..that these practices,
Which partook of an unconstitutional nature, ought to be
Mr. Fox said, he knew not what character the right ho-
avoided as much as possible in our executive government in
nourable gentleman would be disposed to allow him for can-
its future arrangements. The right honourable gentleman
dour, but he was under the necessity of speaking upon the
had maintained, that if the expellees of the year exceeded
question before the House, and he should speak as he felt, as
What the executive government had foreseen, and that in
was his custom. He had listened as attentively as lie could
matters which required immediate payment, we must pay
to a very able speech delivered by the right honourable gen-
that service which had that- necessary demand upon us; and
tleman. 'What struck him first upon review'ing- that speech
w hen- that necessity demanded it, we must so far obey the
170
CHARGES AGAINST MINISTERS.
[May p-
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6.3
1 71
179
act of appropriation. Undoubtedly, this would always ap,
t,hboonokbecause they knew them. It had been stated, that in
pear to be true, if it was to be argued generally, as the mi-
,, which he admired as much as any one did, and also
nister was pleased to argue it now : and this sort of argument
in the report of a committee of that House in 1782, the
would be applicable to any other law, as well as the appro.;
atraordinaries of the American war were censured. They
priation act, inevitable necessity being an answer to eve
were so. The right honourable gentleman had
thing. This certainly, taken in its full extent, would appl
:1:teadillitYhat the extraordinaries were very great in that war,
to any act of parliament, as well as the appropriation act.
and that administration could not now be blamed for these
It would, in short, apply to every thing as a general rule,
extraordina ries, any more than they were at that time. Upon
and only be subject to some particular exceptions, as most
this he must observe, that the case was widely different be-
general rules were.
tween the condition of that administration and the present.
The right honourable gentleman had alluded to the case
However desirable it might be to put an end to extraordi-
which was debated in the year 1744, where the House Of
naries at. that moment, it was absolutely impossible. Was
Commons had inquired into the disposition of 40,0001., and
the case the same with the right honourable gentleman ? In-
how far that was, or was not, a deviation from the duty of
dianant as he professed himself to be at the amount of these
the executive government to make the appropriation which
extraordinaries, and violent as he was at the administration
they did of that money ; whether there was ground f'
which had carried them to such an .extent, coming into
censuring administration ? and that upon that question
power upon these principles, and presiding in the govern-
House of Commons had determined, that this conduct
ment of the country during seven years of peace, one would
the executive government was deserving of praise instead
have naturally expected, that in this particular at least, there
of censure. He had no doubt of the regularity of that de-
would have been some radical reform ; instead of which, the
termination of the House of Commons, nay, he would go
present minister laid before parliament accounts of extra-
farther, and say, that had he been a member of that House at
ordinary expences which far exceeded any that were ever
that time, he believed he should have voted in the majority
incurred by his predecessors. The right honourable gentle-
upon that occasion. What principle did the agitation of
man had talked of our extraordinaries being no more than
that question inculcate? It slimed to us this, that 145
thur million in three years. The fact was, they exceeded
members of the House of Commons of that clay thought
that amount in this Very year; and upon this part of the
that the slightest deviation from the letter of the appropri-
subject the right honourable gentleman had made for him-
ation act deserved to be censured, and here he could not help
self deductions which he did not allow in his calculations to
observing, that the right honourable gentleman seemed to
Lord North. Mr. Fox stated the sums, to illustrate his
think that he was speaking ad hominon to him, when he told
observation.
him, that that person for whose memory he had, as he ought
He next proceeded to observe that the minister had that
to have, great esteem and gratitude, (his father,) voted in the
day defended himself by referring to the American war, the
majority. To which he could only answer, that. he believed
practice of which they had all reprobated, and the right
the right honourable gentleman would find on examination,
honourable gentleman most of any ; this was a little singular,
that another person equally entitled to the esteem and gra-,
but however, so it was, and the House would do, well to
titude of that right honourable gentleman, (the late Earl of
observe it. The right honourable gentleman had taken up
Chatham,) voted in the minority in the same division, and
considerable time upon this, and lie was sorry he had imitated
therefore thought that it was proper to censure ministers for
him in that respect, for the point was too clear to require
applying this money, even on that occasion, contrary to the
much argument. The great matter to be explained was,
provisions of the appropriation act.
how did it happen that when the House had voted sums for
But what was the accusation here ? Not that the payment
ex traordinaries, that these sums were not applied to the
p
of a particular bill drawn should not be made, when that
urposes for which the House thought they were intended?
became necessary for the service; such an accusation his
That the services were not paid for as provided ? He wished
honourable friend was incapable of making, or if lie was,
to know why they were delayed after they were provided for?
Mr. Fox said, he was sure he would resist it ; but that the
wished to know in particular why the payment of the
extraordinaries had for a long time been studiously concealed
clothing of the army had been so long delayed, and that
co
from the House, when the ministers ought to have stated
ntrary to the express direction of the act of parliament
172
CHARGES AGAINST MINISTERS.
[May 6,
,-96.j
CHARGES AGAINST MINISTERS.
I 7
passed for that purpose ? Why- ! the right honourable gen.-
this practiceavould lead.. The minister said that new
tleman would say, because money allowed for that purpose
ere often more urgent than arrears. Granted. The vote
tic
was applied necessarily to other services. Surely, however,
credit was exhausted. These new demands might be stated
of
that complaint should not have existed an hour after the vote
arid then they should provide for them as they
th
of the next, which included all these allowances, and made
eci
,o
occurred, ililissetead of post
p
oning the payment of arrears, instead
reicli
up all these deficiencies. How did the minister answer this?
of distressing those who accused them of that shameful and
By acknowledging a system which tended to bring our
scandalous mode of conduct. These arrears fell heavy on the
finances into a state of greater confusion than any man in
persons to whom they were due first; afterwards on the execu-
this country had ever thought of before. The system of the
tive government, and filially- heavy on the mass of the people,
right honourable gentleman was, that new votes for old de-
Who must bear the whole of their load eventually. If some
mands should, at the discretion of the executive government,
regulation was not adopted upon this, where were they to
be applied to the discharge of still newer demands, so that to
end? The minister said, that these were extraordinary ser-
the uncertainty of the application of money voted by parlia-
vices for which it was necessary to appropriate money in pre-
ment, there was to be no end. How was it possible to come
ference to other services of last year. If the fact were so, he
to any clearness in practice upon such a system ? What
must observe, that, unless some regulation be made of this,
excuse could there be Inade for such confusion ? Why not
new services would follow one another, so that the House of
apply money in general to the purpose for which it was spe-
Commons, or the people, could never know that the money
cifically voted ? The extraordinarics were generally voted
was applied to the purposes for which the law required it to be
early in the session. At least he was entitled to ask, why
applied. Besides the perpetual confusion which such arrange-
we did not pay off arrears of former years, for which sums
ments must produce in our accounts, how was parliament to
had been specifically voted ?
know where this system would end ? We might go on perpe-
To put this point in another way, the minister should here-
tually contracting debt, and perpetually voting extraordinaries
after candidly declare, that although he called on parliament
for past deficiencies, but which were applied to new demands,
to vote a sum of money for a particularly described purpose,
leaving always the arrears unpaid.
he nevertheless meant to apply it to another. He heartily
Having said thus much on the violation of the appropriation
wished that there might come a system by which they should.
act, he came next to the consideration of the paymasters' act;
understand directly what it was they were doing. That,
which, lie contended, had also been most positively and un-
necessary, the House might vote so much occasionally for the
necessarily broken. If the bank would not receive the exche-
deficiency of supply of each preceding year under that head
quer bills, which it was admitted they had a right to reject,
specifically. Although this would appear extraordinary, he
why didnot government issue money in another way for the
p
could not help thinking it would be a considerable improve-
for which these bills were issued ? They afterwards,
ment in the mode of transacting the business of the public..
it seemed, came to some arrangement . with the bank; but
They would then annually see how much the preceding year
supposing that this arrangement had never taken place, to what
was deficient, and clearness was essential in the transacting of
situation would they have been reduced ? Had the bank, or
business. That„ therefore, instead of voting any extraordi-
had it not a right to refuse these bills? They certainly bath
naries, there should be voted sums to satisfy all demands for
They did refuse them for some time; the consequence of which
services, the payments of which had not been fulfilled on ac-
Was a breach of the act of parliament. And if this arrange-
count (to make use of a favourite expression of the minister)
ment had never taken place, ministers would have been pm-
of the diversion of former services. It would be better to do
eisely in the situation of doing for a longer time, what they
so at once; for that in substance, although not in letter, they
actually did for a short time, and then the inconvenience to
had been a long time doing. That would not be a more sub-
the public would have been prodigious.
stantial disobedience of the law than the present practice, and
He then came to the disposition-paper, on which the right
it would be accompanied with the advantage of being more
honourable gentleman admitted there was much explanation
intelligible to the public.
to be made. He was right in admitting that there certainly
On what principle was it, that instead of settling our ar-
was much to be explained. He had listened, however, very
rears, they left those arrears standing on account of the ne-
attentively to what the minister called an explanation of that
cessity of settling new demands? Let the House sec to what
subject, and he must confess that he did not hear any thing
11.
CHARGES AGAINST MINISTERS.
[May c,
796.]
CHARGES AGAINST MINISTERS. .
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175
that appeared to him to excuse or palliate the minister's con.
a time when the subj ect of it was not well understood. The
duct upon the subject; of what was in itself a breach of a p:ti.
ininister said, that this was an ,act with which it was hnpossi-
sitive law without a just cause for it. It was said, that it h64
ble to comply ; that it required a memorial to be presented
when
i
been the constant practice of the House to violate the appro.. •
that was impossible. Be it so: That it required the
priation act : that a committee had reported its disapprobation
Pa)anent of money when it was not in the possession of exe-
of the breach of that act, but that as parliament had never
government. Be it so. But it was an act of parliament
done any thing against the mode of appropriating money to
framed when the right honourable gentleman was himself a
the discharge of the extraordinaries from time to time, they
member of that House, and active in the passing of the act,
seemed by that silence to admit there was no possibility of
(although that was not material). But this was not an old
preventing the abuse. He would not then question the yali-
act of parliament, formed when the business of the executive
of
dity of that reasoning. He owned, however, it appeared to
uov rnment was not understood, as it is by his majesty's mi-
o .
him to be at least doubtful. It seemed to him to be a little
nisters. It was a modern act of parliament to prevent those
hasty, to say that parliament had made no law against this
very abuses which, he contended not to be within the spirit of
practice with regard to extraordinaries, and that therefore
the appropriation act. When the minister considered the
they did not disapprove of the practice. But when parlia-
supply of the year, ought he not to take care he had consi-
ment had declared, as decidedly they had done, that it was
dered . the law of the country? Ought he not to observe the
contrary to the principles of the constitution, they must be
positive injunctions of an act of parliament which he himself
supposed at least to think that the . existing laws were suffi-
took a share in framing? Or was this all ? What were they
cient, if properly inforced, to remedy the evil. But, said the
to say of an act of parliament that was made so as to be im-
right honourable gentleman, parliament, by making no pro-
possible to be obeyed, or its provisions complied with ? Did
vision to prevent these extraordinaries encroaching on the
the minister say that the provisions of this act were difficult
appropriation act, shewed they connived at it. Ile would
in times of war ? That it was an act of parliament, in which
grant the minister the whole force of this argument. If par-
it was impossible to proceed at all times ? Did the minister
b
liament were of this sentiment, the more force there must be
come to the House, and complain of an act of his own making ?
in the acts which they had really passed, and which were de-
Did he complain that it was wholly impracticable in time of
claratory of their sentiments on this subject, because those
war ? That was the time for which it was principally made.
who connived at some abuses, must surely be well convinced
What reason had the minister to complain of this instead of
of others before they prohibited them. Thus, by relying on
complying with it ? In the years 17 94 and 1795, he did not
what they had not done, the right honourable gentleman had
comply with it. He seemed to leave the act as a monument
given double weight to what they had done in the way of pro-
of the inefficacy of parliament ; a monument of the motives
hibition. What had they said on the cloathing of the army?
of a man who only aimed at gaining a little popularity ; for
When parliament despaired, if the minister pleased, of adopt-
which lie seemed to favour a popular act, but with which,
ing any general regulation against extraordinaries, they de-
after it was passed, he did not mean to comply, nor did coin-
clared certain things must be done, and ordered a strict and
ply when afterwards he came into office.
literal observance with regard to the cloathing of the army.
The character of men in that House had from many events
For this purpose they directed the paymaster to make certain
been questioned and suspected from time to time for the last
f
memorials at certain times; that he should draw such and
orty years; and he was sorry to say that many things were
such bills, and that payments should be made on certain stated
done, that hal a very unfavourable effect on many characters
times. The minister stated upon this point (to shew he could
in the course of that time. He would not say, although he
state something on that subject) that this was not a charge on
felt much, what might he thought upon that subject in conse-
the treasury, nor on him in his official situation. To this lie
quence of what had happened within the last two years.
T
would observe that his honourable friend did not complain of
hese things should be recollected by that House. They
him particularly, but of ministers .generally, upon this. sub-,
Concerned the members of it nearly. The more especially
ject, and therefore there was nothing in the distinction of the
when certain doctrines which he had lately heard were to be
ma
chancellor of the exchequer, upon that point.
intained by the minister of executive government. Much
Here, however, he must complain against the ministers who
had been thrown out (he was not now enquiring whether right
every day acted contrary to law, and that not a law made at
wrong) against the conduct of Sir Robert Walpole, and it
176
CHARGES AGAINST MINISTERS.
[May 6.
1796.]
CHARGES' AGAINST MINISTERS.
I 77
was said in his time that man professed what he did not mean
troordinaries incurred this day were to be voted immediately
to practise. That charge, he feared, was much more just
by the House ? How stood the case, when compared with the
now that it was then. Men had some time ago so reprobate(1
eloathing of the army, which was required by law ? He wished
the conduct of others, that they had gone so far as to say it
to know why the minister did not provide for them at once, if
was impossible to make part of an administration with them.
necessary, .by a vote of credit. The right honourable gentle-
What did they do now ? Only say to the people we will bring
man said, that his votes of credit bore a greater proportion to
in acts of parliament to amuse the public in which things thi
the expellee than in former wars, and yet he would defray ex-
are theoretically right are maintained ; but when the authors
peaces of this year out of money voted in the last. He would
ask,
of them have gained a little popularity, they disobey the pro-
why the vote of credit ought not to be increased, rather
visions of such acts, and make speeches on the impracticability
than the service of last year should be unpaid ? The
right honourable gentleman . had stated a number of suppo-
of them.
He knew not what influence there might be in that House;
sitions. He said, he could not know the extent of the esti-
this, however, he knew, that it was impossible for that House
mates of the service altogether, or the time they would each
to have the confidence of the public, if they did not take care
of them occur. Certainly. He said also, he could not esti-
that ministers obeyed acts of parliament, instead of talking of
mate when the supplies would come in ; the most certain in
the impracticability of them, when called upon to obey them.
that respect were, the land and malt ; another was the case of
The minister, to do him justice, had said that a great deal of
the exchequer bills ; and most of was the period when the
explanation was due to this subject. The misfortune was, that
loan was to be paid. Granted. But, what occasion had they
he did not give that explanation. By the explanation which
to suppose when they were talking of facts ? One loan came in
he had given, the act of parliament,' to which he had at last
so early last year, that it was argued that a possible inconve-
alluded, would be null and void ; because it never could be
nience might arise from the circumstance; that the loan Might
come
told when the right honourable gentleman would be able to
in before they had use for it ; and that it wouldbe lying
calculate exactly what would be the expellee of the year ; and
dead upon our hands, while they were paying the interest first.
till that time he had assumed a dispensing power with regard
At this very period ministers were proceeding in direct dis-
obedience to the act of parliament, and they were scandalously
to the provisions of the law. He agreed with the minister,
that to over calculate the expence of the year would be dis-
in arrear to the army. Then, he would say again, the minister
advantageous to the public. He agreed, too, that the very
had no occasion to have recourse to supposition while he was
furnished with facts upon the subject.
best system was to make the estimate as great and the extraor-
dinaries as little as possible. Upon that point he had often
With respect to this year, nine million had already been
complained before, and he complained then, that the minister
expended in the army. He would leave the House to judge
had not done his utmost. An evident instance in the case
what they were likely to do next year. As to the question,
of the barracks presented itself. The minister himself bad
What was the blame of the executive government ?. He would
said, that it would have been more regular to have given to
say there was much indeed, under all the circumstances, in the
dis
the House of Commons an account of them in the first instance;
obedience of the law, in .their proceeding without informing
and yet those ministers who pleaded guilty in the instance of
the House of what they were doing and what was the situa-
barracks, told the House that in every other instance they
tion of the country. Had he then any difficulty in saying that
this was a great misdemeanor on the part of administration,
had done better than their predecessors.
.and one that called for the public judgment? Most certainly
Having said this, he must observe upon the general outline
he
of the subject before the House, that, in his opinion, a vote of
had not. It seemed, however, that the right honourable
gentleman thought of secu
credit was better than extraordinaries ; first, because you pro'
ringhimself by precedent. The
right honourable- g
vide in the former for the interest of the debt you incur ; se-
entleman had heard of the case of the Earl of
,
Mae
condly, you do not, by a vote of credit, disobey a positive act
clesfield, who, in many respects, was a worthy character..
of parliament, in complying with such vote. He must again
how stood the case upon the trial of that nobleman?
What
desire to know, whether extraordinaries might not be voted
what was said by the wisest men of that day upon that occa-
:.0L
1? tvhr
immediately after they were incurred when parliament were
stcio
at precedent of similar conduct in others ought not
, prevent the pronouncing of judgment upon guilt. He would
sitting? What advantages were there to be expected, in 3
therefore say, that although precedent might be pleaded to
financial point of view, to say nothing of then principle, if 0"
zu,
1796.3
CONDUCT OF THE WAR WITH FRANCE.
1 7 8
3IR. FOX'S MOTION ON THE
[May IQ,
1-79
prevent a rigorous judgment, yet it was no justification of the
nature, I should have, however reluctantly, acquiesced in the
breach of the law. On the paymaster's act, he would say no
former decisions of the House, after having entered my solemn
excuse could be offered, far there was no precedent for its
protest against the plans that were adopted, and avowed my
o.
breach. It was an act of parliament recently made after full
strong arid complete disapprobation of the whole system of
consideration of the subject; an act which all men were bound
measures that has been pursued. There certainly, however,
have happened, during the Jast year, some events, which must,
to obey, and the minister more than any other, on account a
the share he took in framing of it. The minister had, however,
in no inconsiderable degree, have tended to alter the senti-
wilfully, wittingly, wantonly, and unnecessarily disobeyed it;
ments of those with whom I had the misfortune to differ, as
and he could not help saying, that administration, by such
well as to strengthen and confirm the former opinions of those
conduct, had made the act a sheet of waste paper. He defied
with whom I have the honour to agree. The event of great
any man to show what the act was good for, if the minister's
importance, and to which I particularly allude, is the negoci-
defence.was just. The minister said it was inapplicable to a
ation at Basle and the notice which has been given of the
time of peace. This should have been stated to the House long
negotiation with foreign powers. As I shall have occasion
ago if that was really the feeling which the minister had upon
,
to comment upon this transaction more fully hereafter, I
the subject. He would again repeat, and he was sorry to be
shall only say at present, that notwithstanding all the applauses
obliged to repeat, that ministers had knowingly, wittingly,
that have been bestowed upon it, the result cannot fail to draw
:wilfully, and, according to their own statement, unnecessarily,
the attention of every thinking man to tile present posture of
set this act aside, and made it a sheet of waste paper. Heartily
public affairs; it must call the attention of every man who is
agreeina with his honourable friend, in all the facts he had
not determined to act blindly (a description of persons, of
which I
''
stated, Mr. Fox said, he should most cordially vote for the
hope there are none in this house,) to the situation of
motion before the House.
the country, and that line of conduct which the government
ought to follow. For one thing that we have learned is, whether
Mr. Steele having moved the previous question on the first reso-
ministers have acted wisely or not, (no matter which for our
lution, the House divided:
present purpose,) that we have no immediate prospect of
Tellers.
Tellers.
peace. It signifies but little, whether the obstacle may have
General Tarleton
s
YEAS 1 Mr.Jenkinson
arisen from the unreasonable demands of the enemy, or the
209 —NOES
Mr. Neville
Mr. Randy!! Barch 3 •
1-
mismanagement of his majesty's ministers ; but of this we are
assured, that we have no prospect of peace, (an event much to
"Av
be lamented, but more especially in the present circumstances
of the country,) and that it is not in the power of those who
are entrusted with the administration of public affairs to ob-
Wit. FOX'S MOTION ON THE CONDUCT OF TEE -WAR
tain terms from the enemy, which they dare to offer to the na-
WITH FRANCE.
tion. Whatever may be our opinions of the causes which have
May
led to this situation,
10.
we must all be agreed as to the effect;
and none, I presume, will dispute that our situation is worse
N pursuance of the notice he had given,
than it was at the period when, either ,by conquest or con-
I
cession, we had a prospect of approaching peace.
Mr. Fox rose and addressed the House to the following
Having stated this point, upon which there can be no dif-
effect:—It having fallen to my lot, Sir, both at the commence'
ference of opinion, I shall go into a detail of those circum-
s
anentand in the course of the present war, to trouble the
tances which, in my mind have reduced us to the situation
House with several motions Which have not been honoured
Which we are now placed. I know the language which has
with their concurrence, and having last session proposed al.'
been held by the executive government on former occasions of
inquiry into the state of the nation, to which the House Aid
a similar nature, and the language which may be used by the
tot think proper to assent, it may be thought by some, per'
executive government on the present, because it is its interest to
haps, to be rather presumption in me again to call their atten-
use it, is, that it is not our business to inquire into the causes
tion to the same subject. And I confess that if some eventts
?f the evil, but into the best mode of remedy. If these could
had not occurred during the last year, rather singular in their
lie separated, I admit that the conclusion would be just, but
N 2
Ii
180
MR. FOX'S MOTION ON THE
[May /
CONDUCT OF THE WAR WITH FRANCE.
/796.]
CONDUC
as long as man remains the same, I contend that there is le,
of hope. " " said he, " they had fallen into these mis-
mode of extricating ourselves from danger, but by retracine
fortunes by the course of natural and irremediable causes,
the circumstances by which we have been involved in
then, indeed, there would be reason for despair; if, on the
difficulties of which we complain. The first thing then to be
contrary, they are the fruits of lolly and misconduct, it
done, is, to take an impartial review of past events, which
,nay be possible, by wisdom and prudence, to repair the evil."
have led to the situation in which we now stand, that the
In the same manner I would argue on the present occasion.
country may be enabled to take steps to extricate itself from
Had we not fallen into our present situation, from plans
the situation into which it has fallen. I shall, therefore, rather
formed and worse executed ; if every minister had been wise,
look retrospectively than prospectively, and in that retrospect
and every enterprise ably executed, then, indeed, our state
I shall not go farther back than the American war. Most
would have been truly deplorable. But if our policy has
members present will recollect the calamities which befel m
been erroneous and our measures ill conducted, we may still
in that contest, and also the terms of peace which in the end'
entertain sortie hope, because our errors may be corrected,
we were constrained to make ; terms which I shall not argue
and the losses from our misconduct retrieved. I have often
at present, whether it was or was not for the advantage of the
had occasion to employ this argument, and I know it has been
country to accept, in the circumstances in which it was then
said in reply, that the argument is good when carried to an
placed. Many will also recollect the discussions which took
extreme, but that the natural imperfection common to every
place in the course of that war, and the constant argument
man renders it inconclusive in any other case. But when
which on all occasions was pressed from the ministerial side of
the misconduct was of such a nature as to be capable of being
the House, that we ought to look not retrospectively but pro-
remedied, when the mismanagement was such as ought to be
spectively; that when the House was on fire, the question was
avoided, it shewed that the argument was true in a degree,
trot how the fire was kindled, but how it could be most speedily
as well as true in the extreme. This I state as a motive
and effectually extinguished. The argument which we opposed
against despair; and I contend, that upon the face of the
to that was one founded upon solid principles, and one which
&ling, when we compare the situation to which we are now
the House listened to at last; that a consideration of past er-
reduced, with that which we held four years ago, there is
rors would lead to future amendment, and that a change of
ground for presumption, that the change has been in a great
measures would lead to a change of circumstances. -And I
measure owing to errors in the conduct of those who have
appeal to fact, whether the truth of this argument was not
had the management of public affairs. In a survey of the
confirmed by experience. As long as we declined going
past, the period to which we are naturally apt to recur, is
into a retrospective inquiry, the war continued, and our misfor•
the period of the commencement of the war. If we could
tunes increased; but from the moment that the House adopted
consider in one debate every particular of the external and
a resolution to inquire into its past errors, measures were put
internal situation of the country, and more especially the
into a train by which peace was obtained, and the national
effects which the measures that have been adopted have
prosperity restored.
had on its constitution, we might go farther back : but this •
Before we go into particular inquiries, let us first examine
would involve a detail too extensive for the discussion of
whether erroneous maxims of policy have not been adopted,
a single night, a field too large for the capacity of the
and whether the principles which have been acted upon are
speaker.
not fundamentally wrong. There is an argument, which has
I shall begin, Sir, with the opening of the budget in 792,
been used by an ancient orator, the greatest orator that per-
when a most splendid display of the situation of the country
haps the world ever saw, which, in my opinion, is not inap-
was given by the minister, without alluding to any prior or
plicable to the present situation of this country. Demosthenes
subsequent statement : and I take that day because it was a
uses this brilliant, and, in my opinion, no less solid than bril-
day on which his statement was more to his own satisfaction,
liant argument, in the introduction to one of his noblest
and more to the satisfaction of the House than at any other
orations. When he observed the conduct and the fate of the
Peri od. In the year 1792, three years after the French
Athenians, and compared their calamities with the mismanag e
Revolution, the minister came forward with his boasted and
-ment of their rulers, this mismanagement so firs from
be-
trinetphant description of the state of the country, of the pros-
Lig a cause of despair, he directly stated as a ground
Perity of our commerce, of the improvement (dour manufac-
15
tures, of the extent of our revenue, and the prospect of perma-
N 3
/7963
CONDUCT or THE WAR WITH PRANCE:
182
:kn.. PDX'S MOTION ON THE
[May
183
'War was
neat peace." He then admitted that fifteen years' peace was,
ties.
either begun, or there was a moral certainty
perhaps, rather too much to expect, but he said that we had
that
as rational hopes of the continuance of tranquillity as ever had
l
discuss a point, (on which, however, I
existed in the history of modern times. Then—full two years
eave no difficulty in my own mind,) whether Austria or France
was the aggressor, it was sufficient that ministers knew at the
and a half (I wish to speak within compass) after the first
t
Revolution in France, after the time that the king had been
ime that an aggression had been made on the part of one of
Assembly
those powers. And notwithstanding the defeats which at-
compelled to return to Paris, that the National Assem
had
annihilated the titles and destroyed the feudal tenures of the
tended the French arms at the outset, it was the general
nobility ; had confiscated the lands belonging to the church,
opinion that the Austrian territory was defenceless, and that
banished part of the clergy, and compelled those who re-
it would soon be over-run by the enemy's arms. But even
mained to take an oath contrary, in many instances, to the
then a. fifteen-years' peace was talked of. And I must here
dictates of their conscience ; — then, I say, it was, that this
state a fact, which though not officially confirmed, rests upon
prospect of fifteen years' peace was held out to the country.
the general belief of Europe, that before hostilities com-
It was after the King of France had been made, as was said at
menced between Austria and France, an insinuation, or rather
the time, to stand in a splendid pillory, on the f ‘lth July,
a communication, was made by England to the latter power, •
that this expectation of lasting tranquillity was raised. So
that if they attempted any aggression upon the territories of
that I have a right to conclude, that in the opinion of the
Holland, which at that time was our ally, we should be obliged
king's ministers, the annihilation of the titles of the »obi-
to break the neutrality that we had observed, and interfere in.
lity, and the degradation of the order, the exile of the clergy;
the contest. This message has been differently interpreted.
and the confiscation of the lands of the church ; that the
Some have put upon it the interpretation, which I think, upon
invasion of the royal prerogative, and the insults offered to
the whole, is the fair one, that it was our policy to take all
the sovereign, described as they then were by their friends,
prudent means of avoiding any part in the war. Others; I
know, have put upon
by the terms pillory and imprisonment, (terms which I now
it a more invidious constructioin, and in-
repeat, not with any view of courting the favour of those who
sinuated that our meaning was neither more nor less than this,
employed them, but merely to shew the light in which those
speaking to the French, " Take you Austria and do with it
events wore considered at the time,) not only so little inter,
what you please, but we set up the limits of Holland, beyond
fered with the system of neutrality which they had adopted,
which you shall not pass." I state this to shew that at that time
but were in so small a degree connected with the interests of
ministers did not foresee any probable event which might oc-
asion a rupture between this country and France. That this
the country, as not to damp the prospect of peace, or even to
render the duration of tranquillity for fifteen years very un,
also was the general opinion of the House in the spring of
certain. I so far agree, therefore, with the opinion of mi.,
1792, I need not spend time in convincing them. I shall,
however, barely mention a circumstance of a financial nature,
histers, that instead of the country being in danger from the
tlieliciliethbappene
French Revolution, there were no circumstances attending
happenedd nearthe close of the session, which proves
ii
which rendered the continuance of peace more uncertain than
, beyond dispute. I mean the measure of funding the
4e el
1ilkiilia.d o
cents. At
it was before it happened. It may be said, that at that time
that time the per cent. consols had risen to 95,
France was professing pacific views. I have so often seen
96, and even to 97, and it was the opinion of the right honour-
these professions made by the most ambitious powers, in the
able the chancellor of the exchequer that they would rise to
Very moment when they were thirsting most for aggrandize•
.."1
ar; in this conviction, and with a view of a probable saving,
ment, that I repose little faith in them; so little, indeed, that I
lost t le opportunity of a certain saving to the nation
of a per
cannot believe that the pacific views of ministers were found-
petual annuity of 240,0001.; a thing of such maoni-
z,
.-7,
tilde
ed upon these professions which were made by the French.
as to prove to the House that at.
the
that time tne right ho-
nourable g
But at that very time France was either engaged in actual
entleman had no expectation that the peace was
y
hostilities with Austria; or on the point of commencing hostili-
to be disturbed since it induced him to forego the great
b
goodwthat was in his power, in the hope of the trifling ad-
dition, 0
Lnat might have accrued on the event of the 3 per
(cieelciitasr. arisin g to ar . I mention this as a fact subsidiary to the
See Vol. iv. p.3fz:
s which the minister made at the commencement of
N 4
184
MR. FOX'S MOTION ON THE
[May
/796.]
CONDUCT OF THE WAR WITH TRANCE.
18y
that session, and which proved, that to the end of it he con-
it necessary to say a few words by way of explanation. I ape
tinued to entertain the same confidence of peace.
prove of their sentiments in 5792, in as far as they thought
Thus ended the session of 5792. In the course of the
h ilt the French Revolution did not afford a sufficient cause for
summer of that year various events of various kinds took.
that country involving itself in a war, and I approve of their
place. The Revolution in France of ;the loth of Ant*
conduct, in as far as it proceeded upon a determination to ad-
chiefly deserves notice. I shall not now comment upon the
here to an invariable line of neutrality, provided universal
nature of that Revolution, I shall speak of it merely as a
tranquillity could not be preserved. I differ, however, with-
member of the British legislature, and as an event connected
them upon the means of preserving that neutrality. I think
with the interests of this country. The great alteration it had
there was a time before the war broke out with Austria, which
produced was the changing the government of France ii•orn
presented an opportunity for this country to exercise the great
a monarchy to a republic. I know that these are excellent
end dignified office of a mediator, which would not only have
words, and well adapted, as the history of our country has
been highly honourable to herself and. beneficial to Europe,
proved, for enlisting men under opposite standards. But this
but an office which she was in some measure called upon to
is not the view in which that Revolution is to be considered,
undertake by the events of the preceding year. The event to
as affecting the policy of this country. Let us in the first
which I particularly refer was the treaty of Pilnitz, by which
place consider its influence upon this country, in the way of
Russia and Prussia avowed their . intention of interfering in
example, and the prevalence which it was likely to give to
the internal affairs of France, if they should be supported by
in principles throughout Europe. After this country
the other powers of Europe, which certainly was to all intents
Jacob
had seen the order of the nobility destroyed and their titles
and purposes an aggression against France. The circum-
abolished, when it had seen the system of equality carried to
stances of the transaction, still more than the transaction it-
as great a length as it was possible to carry it, except in
self, pointed out the propriety of this mediation on the part
that one instance of the existence of a king, I ask those
of Great Britain. This treaty, I really believe, was never in-
who are fondest of the name of monarchy, (I beg not to be
tended to be acted upon ; but this certainly does not lessen
understood as speaking in the least disrespectfully of that
the aggression, much less the insult which it carried to France.
form of government,) whether there was any thing in the
The emperor at that time was importuned by the emigrant
monarchy of France previous to the loth of August which
nobility and clergy to interfere in the domestic affairs of France.
tended to fortify the English monarchy ? Whether there was
Austria did not dare to interfere without the co-operation of
any thing in the subsequent Revolution which tended to render
Prussia, and Prussia 'did not wish to hazard the fate of
it less secure than it was immediately before that event hap-
such an enterprize. When those powers were in this state of
pened, when no danger was apprehended ? Whether there be a
uncertainty, that was the very moment for England to be-
greater or a less prospect of peace between this country and
come a mediator; and if this country had at that time pro-
France since the overthrow of the house of Bourbon than there
posed fair terms of accommodation to the parties, the matter
was before ? It is not my disposition to triumph over the dis-
aught have been compromised, and the peace of Europe pre-
tresses of a fallen family ; but, considering them as kings
served, at least for some time; for, God knows, the period of
of France, as trustees for the happiness of a great nation,
Peace is at all times uncertain ! If England had then stepped
f
and remembering at the same time my old English preju-
orward as a mediator, the questions to be agitated would have
dices, and I may farther add, old English history, can l
related solely to Lorraine and Alsace. And, is there any man
regret that expulsion as an event unfavourable to the
Who believes, putting out of the question the internal affairs
happiness of the people of France, or injurious to the
of Prance altogether, that under the impartial mediation of
tranquillity of Great Britain ? No man who thinks that the
this country, all the difficulties respecting the tenures of the
former wars of this country against France were just and
nobility, and the right of the chapters in those two provinces,
necessary, can refuse to say that they were provoked by the
Plight not have been easily settled to the satisfaction of the
restless ambition of the house of Bourbon. And can it then
disputants ? I cannot conceive that ministers, in concerting
their
be said, that the overthrow of that monarchy was either a
schemes, and adopting the measures which they have
cause of alarm or a symptom of danger to Great.Britain ?
Purs ued, could be influenced by any secret principle so de..
Lest, however, I should be thought by . some to approye
P rayed and truly impolitic, as to be induced to contemplate
more of the conduct of ministers than I really do, I here fin('
with satisfaction the growing seeds of discord, under the idea
186
MR. FOX'S MOTION ON THE
[May tz.
CONDUCT OF Tilt WAR WITH PRANCE,
181
796.3
that this country would flourish, whilst the other powers of
policy more than ordinarily shallow.
ceritiakiinl3
Europe were exhausting themselves( in contention and Neve,.
N,%e'as a
been, perhaps, in this, as in every instance of a
have
Neutrality I admit to have been preferable to an active share
•e more wise to adopt a resolution at the outset,
Aar nature,
in the contest; but to a nation like Great Britain, whose pres
id to act upon it with uniformity, firmness, and consistency.
verity depends upon her commerce, the general tranquillity of
31-
a France to be successful, did you expect to strike
SupPosint,
Europe is a fin- greater blessing (laying the general interests
et the end of the war, and speak to France as you did in
•
of mankind out of the question) than any partial neutrality
case of Russia and the Porte, when you vauntingly said to
which it could preserve. I hope, therefore, that it was upon
You shall not keep Ockzakow as an indemnity for
no such contracted views that ministers declined the office of
ences of the war ? What was the consequence,
mediators at the period to which allude. One would think,
however, when you came forward in this arrogant and impe-
however, that after refusing such interference, they would
:
1
1110elu
etsss eilt'o
Pne? You were not seconded by the country ; you
have been the last men- in the world to intermeddle with the
were condemned, as assuming haughty and unwarrantable
internal government of another country.
p retension s by every impartial man in Europe ; and in the
e
•
,
Having proved that the event of the loth of August made
end you were obliged to send a minister to Petersburgh to
no difference in our relative situation, I trust it is not neces-
renounce every thing that you had said. Had you pursued
sary for me to refer to the horrible scenes that were disclosed
the same conduct in respect to France, you would have been
in France, in the month of September. I merely mention them
reduced to the same dilemma. The more the aggrandize-
that it may not be said that I wished to pass them over in si-
ment of France was to be dreaded, the stronger motives we
lence, or without expressing those feelings which in common
had to exercise the office of a mediator before the war come
with all mankind I experienced, on hearing of atrocities which
menced. Shortly afterwards Lord Gower was recalled from
have excited the indignation of Europe. However monstrous
Paris; a circumstance which I always lamented, because from
they have been, they seem, notwithstanding, to have no rela-
that moment the continuance of peace between the countries
tion to the present question ; they have no small resemblance,
became more doubtful. And this brings me to the immediate
at the same time, to the massacres in Paris in former periods;
causes of the war.
massacres in which Great Britain was much more nearly af-
The immediate causes of the war have generally been re-
fected than by the events of the month of September 1792,
duced to three : first, the way in which certain individuals
but in which she nevertheless did not interfere ; a conduct,
belonging to the Corresponding Society in this country were
the propriety of which it fell to the province of the historian
received by the government of France; secondly, the decree
to discuss; and to historians alone must the massacre of
of the 19th of November ; and, thirdly, the claims which
September 17 9 2 be also left; for though individual members
were set up against the monopoly held by the Dutch of the
might think them a fit topic with which to inflame the rage
navigation of the Scheldt. The first appears to me to be so
of mankind, ministers never contended that they were a legiti-
insignificant as not to be worthy of a serious answer. In the
mate cause of war.
first place, in order to give it shape, in order to make it fit for
We now come to that important event the successful inva-
being put down upon paper, you must begin with assuming
sion of the Austrian Netherlands, by the French under Gene-
that there was a government in France to whom you might
ral Dumourier. How far it would have been wise in this,
complain, and from whom you might demand redress. But,
country to have permitted •France to remain in possession 01
was there ever any complaint made, or any dissatisfaction
this key to Holland, I shall not now argue. But what hap-
stated ? Respecting the decree of the 1 9th of November, did
pened in October was apprehended in April; and if it is once
you ever complain of it? did you ever demand that it should
admitted as a principle, that it would have been impossible
be either revoked or explained? This is a circumstance so
for this country to have allowed France the quiet possession
ti mately connected with the. existence of a government in
of this territory, would it not have been wise in this country
France, that I know not how to separate them. You refused
to have prevented the invasion by a mediation between the
to recognize the government of France, and from that very
two powers? Perhaps it may be said, that they trusted that
moment all the means of conciliation and explanation were at
the great military power of Austria would be able, if not to
an e nd. Things were then brought to the ultima ratio reollln •
resist the invasion in the first instance, at least to compel than
for the moment that you cut off all means of explanation,
to retire. If this was the policy with which' they acted, it
You virtually made a declaration of war. But though you
88
MR. FOX'S MOTION ON THE
[May
1796 . ]
CONDUCT OF THE WAR WITH FRANCE.
189
arrogantly and unwisely refused to recognize the government
lid effects. This able man had no bounds in his opposition
of France, you allowed M. Chauvelin to remain here, and
to joy proposition for recognizing the government of France.
from the papers which passed between him and the
Igs
ft was represented as a proposition to petition France for
ministers at the time, the French seem to have shown a strong
peace, by throwing ourselves at her feet, to surrender our be-
disposition to explain that decree. Why then, it will
asked, did they not explain it? Because they did not know
loved sovereign's head to the block : in fine, entirely to give
up the constitution. And why ? Because it was to treat with
what explanation would be satisfactory. But it is admitted
roricides, though the unfortunate event (for such I shall al-
by all the writers on the law.- of nations that I have read,
wa'ys call it) of the death of the King of France had not as
that an insult, or even an aggression, is not sufficient cause of
yet taken place. When the question comes to be re-considered,
war, till explanation or redress is demanded and refused, and
I am confident that the country will not be of this opinion.
that the party who refuses an opportunity of explanation to
At present I have even ministers themselves as necessaries to
the other is the aggressor. This opportunity, however, was
the fact, after it has actually happened. By this petition or
denied to the French ; and upon these principles England
message to the directory have they not acknowledged the
was the aggressor. With respect to the opening of the
power of those very men who pride themselves upon the
Scheldt, is there any man who does not believe, if a nego:
part they took in promoting that unfortunate event, and who
elation had been then attempted, that matters might not have
110W celebrate it by an anniversary festival? For what purpose
been arranged to the mutual satisfaction of the parties? This
do I mention this, but to skew that I did not wish to surrender
was even admitted by the House. F'or what was the favourite
the constitution, which has been handed down to us from our
argument at the time ? " England is the last power in Europe
ancestors, cemented with their blood, and that it was no, part
upon whom the French will make war ; but after devouring
of my design to bring the head of our beloved sovereign to
the rest of Europe, they will swallow you up at last." Upon
the block ?
this part of the argument I am a good deal relieved by subse-
But to return to the opening of the Scheldt. I am not one
quent events. And here I am sorry to allude to the opinions
one of those who conceive the navigation of the Scheldt to be
of a gentleman (Mr. Burke) who is no longer a member of
of no importance to Holland; in its present circumstances, I
this House, but, from the part he took in the politics of the
think it was of very little importance. It may be'asked, how-
country at the time, and the effect which his eloquence pro-
ever, are you to judge what is and what is not for the interest
duced, I find it impossible to speak of the history of the
of Holland ? Are not the Dutch much better judges of what
times, without saying something on the doctrines and senti-
is for their interest than you are? Far, far better certainly, is
ments of that able and respectable man. In a most mas-
my answer. But did the Dutch themselves at the time think
terly performance, he has charmed all the world with the
it au object worth disputing about, or rather did not we drag
brilliancy of his genius, fascinated the country with the
them reluctantly into the contest? A variety of other argu-
powers of his eloquence, and, in as far as that cause went to
ments were used at the time. I do not wish to recal the lan-
produce this effect, plunged the country into all the calamities
guage of any particular gentleman to the recollection of the
consequent upon war. I admire the genius of the man,
House; but the argument being adduced against a proposi-
and I admit the integrity and usefulness of his long public
tion which I had the honour to make, I have more particular
life; I cannot, however, but lament that his talents, when, in
l
iev.oatsiolcti s remember it. I was told, that we ought not to re-
my opinion, they were directed most beneficially to the in-
cognize the French republic, for fear of disgusting our allies.
terest of his country, produced very little effect, and that when
IA us inquire, then, who were our allies at the time? The
he espoused sentiments different from those which I hold
States General
eneral were among the number. Then it was said,
to be wise and expedient, then his exertions should hoc
that even those who were disaffected to the interest of the
been crowned with a success that I deplore. Never, certainly,
Stadtholder, were so aristocratic in their sentiments, that they
was there a nation more dazzled than the people of this coun-
urn with indignation at French principles, and that
try were by the brilliancy of this performance of Mr. Burke !
an invasion would heal all the internal divisions which sub-
Much of the lustre of his opponents, as well as of friends, was
in that republic. Notwithstanding these assertions,
drawn from the imitation of this dazzling orb; but it was the
however,
n""ever, I have heard, and I know it is commonly believed,
brilliancy of a fatal constellation, which bore terror and deso-
that Holland was not conquered by the arms of France, but
lation in its train ; .and we arc to this day suffering its bane-
by the disaffection of the Dutch to the cause in which they
190
MR. Fox's MOTION ON THE
[May Io.
/796.] CONDUCT OF THE WAR WITH FRANCE. 191
were engaged. Our other allies were Austria and Prussia,
not make peace in these . circumstances ? Why, because the
Whether the King of Prussia has acted to this country with
system on which ministers had set out was deserted ; because
fidelity and honour, or with falsehood and perfidy; whether
you no longer confined your views to the security of your
he has performed his engagements, or whether he has rio,
allies, but, infatuated with success, you began to seek for in-
lated the faith of the treaty, we have never been informed by
demnity. The declining to negotiate at this period, I set
ministers; but this I will ask, whether after granting him an
down as a principal cause of all our succeeding calamities.
enormous subsidy, a subsidy which must be regarded as most
I cannot help remarking, that there has been a good deal
extravagant, when compared with the amount of the services
of inconsistency in the mode of o.
arguin adopted by those who
which he has performed; whether, if you had thought proper
have been adverse to negociation. When the French were
to recognize the French republic before you entered into the
successful, I was asked — What ! would you humble the
war, he would have deserted you one day sooner, or swallowed
country so far as to beg peace from the enemy, in the moment
up more of the treasure of the country than he has done?
of her victories? And when the allies were successful in their
With respect to Austria, is there any man who seriously
turn, I was told, that we must not treat at a time when our
believes that, though we had recognized the French re-
.armies were every where triumphant, and when nothing but
public, we might not have availed ourselves as much as we
disgrace and defeat marked the progress of the enemy ; that
can do at this moment, of the service of that power ? Even if
then was the period to avail ourselves of our good fortune,
Austria had been disgusted, all that she could have done
and reap the fruits of our victories. It was even at one time
would have been to make a separate peace, which would
thought advisable to push our victories so far as to march to
have probably been the means of restoring general tranquil-
Paris. Upon the project of effecting a counter-revolution in
lity, because that must have happened before we engaged in
France, having said so much on former occasions, I shall not
the war. But if this danger would have attended the recog-
enlarge now. The great defect in the management of the
nition of the French republic before, may not the effect be
war, however, has, in my opinion, been the want of a deter-
produced by the late negociation at Basle, in which Austria
minate object for which you have been contending. You
was not a party? It was argued, that a recognition implied
have neither carried on war for the purpose of restoring mo-
an approbation of every thing that had passed. But this I
narchy in France, nor with a view to your own advantage.
denied when the objection was taken, and still persist in
While the emperor in Alsace was taking towns in the name
denying. On the question of—who was the aggressor? I
of the King of Hungary, you were taking Valenciennes for
contend, that by the law of nations, as it is explained by the
the emperor — proclaiming the constitution of 1791 at Toulon
best writers upon the subject, we were the aggressors, because
and taking possession of . Martinique for the King of Great
we refused to give to France an opportunity of redressing
Britain. What has been the consequence of this want of
those grievances of which we complained.
object? You have converted France into an armed nation—
I now come to the period at which we began to take an
you have given to her rulers the means of marshalling all the
active part in the contest. When our armies first appeared
strength of the kingdom against you. The royalists in
in the field, the enemy were forced to retire from the terri-
France, also, so little understood your intentions, that they
tories which they had occupied ; they were completely driven
did not join you; and the reason is obvious—they did not
out of the Netherlands, and we were in possession of almost
know whether you were at war for the purpose of re-establish-
all French Flanders. At this period, it was reported that a
ing the ancient monarchy of France, or for the purpose of
person of the name of Maret made proposals for peace, on
aggrandizing yourselves by robbing France of her territories.
the part of the French, which were not listened to by his ma-
It might then have been imagined that we would have endea-
jesty's ministers. Why, then, I ask, did you not make peace
voured to conciliate the body of constitutionalists. No such
at this prosperous juncture ? when the enemy were defeated in
thing. We had acted so as to give . .the impression. that we
every battle, when they were driven from the frontiers of our
were desirous to she• our enmity towards that body of men.
allies which they had occupied ; when we had made a con-
-The unfortunate De la Fayette, who deserved the praise of
siderable impression upon French Flanders; when, excepting
being a man of the most uncorrupted nature, who had the
Savoy, they had not one foot of land belonging to our allies,
merit of steering between the two extremes of the parties drat
and when they might have been disposed to purchase terms of
agitated this country ; this firm, brave, and steady friend of
peace by a considerable sacrifice of territory ? Why did We
sovereign, — this gallant and distinguished
1
uelltlernaD,
[May
192
MR. FOX'S MOTION ON THE
0,
1796.3
CONDUCT OF THE WAR WITH FRANCE.
193
equally the friend of his king and his country, emigrated after
like to have a certain period of relaxation, and, having after-
the loth of August. Upon neutral ground he was seized by
wards made his separate peace with France, was easily per-
certain robbers in the service of the King of Prussia ; he was
suaded to give him liberty. This gentleman, then, who had
kept by that monarch for years in prisons and dungeons.
co greatly distinguished himself as the friend of his king and
It might have been thought, if you had been desirous to
who had only been desirous to establish a limited
conciliate this body of men, whose constitution you announced
monarchy,
cliy, and who had fallen a sacrifice in his native land
at, Toulon, that you would at least have made a point of
w his endeavours to prevent the violence and injustice which
procuring the . enlargement of this estimable character. It
have unhappily been committed, sought to re-establish his
might have been thought, that in return for an enormous
health in this country. He had not been here a single fort-
subsidy, the King of Prussia could not hesitate at the en-
night, the greatest part of which he spent in his bed, before
largement of one prisoner. But when a motion on the
he was ordered to quit the kingdom; and to every repre-
subject was made by my right honourable friend (General
sentation of the alarming state of his health; and the impro-
Fitzpatrick) it was said that it was impossible for this govern-
priety of his being put on board any other than a neutral
ment to interfere. He is delivered from the King of Prussia,
vessel, very little attention was paid, and he was hurried
on his recognition of the French, to the emperor, because,
away, at the hazard of his being carried into Calais, and
he said, he belonged to the allies generally, and by him he
conducted to the guillotine. What could be more injurious
is kept in the same scandalous and inhuman bondage. From
to the country than such conduct ? Any person, who had
• this dreadful captivity he endeavours to escape — a circum-
seen M. Lameth with his broken and decayed constitution,
stance not very surprizing— he is taken and sent back to his
would not have conceived that lie was in a state to be dan-
prison, to experience more rigorous treatment. At length
gerous to the government. Good God ! (exclaimed Mr. Fox)
Madame de la Fayette, after enduring a series of most
Lameth an object of terror to the British government !
dreadful sufferings under the brutal Robespierre, from which
An object of terror no otherwise than of moral terror, which
she escaped by miracle, flew, on the wings of duty and affec-
his sufferings might excite, as exhibiting a dreadful example
tion, to Vienna, to solicit the emperor for permission to
of the justice of what are termed " regular governments,"
give to her husband the consolation of her attentions in his
of the implacable temper of political animosity, and of that
prison. The emperor granted her request. But on her
severe vengeance, which jealousy and offended power ex-
arrival at Ohnutz, the officer who had the care of M. dc la
ercise on their unresisting victims ! And thus this gentleman,
Fayette, told her with openness and candour, that if she
who had justly rendered himself clear to all who love rational
resolved to go down to the dungeon to her husband, she must
liberty, and to whom the emigrant nobility of France owed
submit to share in all the horrors of his captivity. [A burst
such obligations, was driven from England.
of indignation and sorrow broke from every part of the House.]
Thus it appears, that it is not to loyalists of' every descrip-
This, however, had no terrors for her affectionate heart ; she
tion that favour is to be sliewn; it is not to those who take
plunged into his dungeon, and there they remain together,
up arms in favour of the limited monarchy, which it was the
the living, and yet buried, victims of' this inhuman power.
pretended object of the allies, and of this country in particular,
Nay, this is not all ; she applied for leave to have a female
to establish, but to those only whose endeavours aim at the
attendant, instead of a male, about her person ; this, she said,
restoration of the ancient tyranny, who are the friends of the
even the implacable Robespierre had not denied her; but
old feudal system. They, it seems, are the only royalists
even this request was brutally refused ! As if it were not
whose loyalty is entitled to support. With respect to the
enough that our ministers had not interfered for the de-
treatment of General Dumourier, though I do not mean to
liverence of this gentleman, and for fear that it should be
place him exactly in the same point of view as the two gen-
misunderstood that they did not participate in the measure,
tlemen I have just mentioned, yet the behaviour of the allies
N. Alexander Lamed', one of the persons who retired from
towards him has not been less impolitic; for, certainly, to
France along with De la Fayette, bad, after a most cruel
afford an asylum and offer our protection, to those men who,
confinement, come to this country to take the benefit of the
disgusted with the party whom they served, withdrew their
Bath waters. He had also been confined in the prisons
assistance, 2?
was the only effectual way to encourage others
of Prussia ; but his health having fallen a sacrifice, the king,
to followv- i.their example. It is said, that the legitimate object
yielded to the solicitation of his mother, and, had permitter
Great Britain in this war was, to obtain from France a
194
MR. Fox's MOTION ON THE
[WI
X 796.]
CONDUCT OF THE WAR WITH FRANCE.
195
just and honourable peace, and that this was also the object
were not upon the verge, but in the actual gulf of bankruptcy,
of the allies. Why, then, was not that object attempted
that they were in the last agony. • A twelvemonth has now
when the confederacy existed in its full power? Why were'
elapsed since they have been in that agony; and really it is
two of the powers, Prussia and Spain, suffered to melt away,
the first time I ever heard of any set of people continuing
and their aid to be withdrawn from the general cause, with_
so long in such a situation. I certainly must admit, that
out making any overtures for such a peace? You may says
last year, while France was labouring under this agony, the
it was not your fault, that you could not foresee their secession;
emperor, with the assistance of this country, was enabled to
let Inc, however, observe, that when statesmen take open
regain part of his dominions which had been wrested from
themselves to form alliances with other powers, they sliouil
him, and this was looked upon as an accomplishment of the
know something of the characters of the princes with Wham
prediction, that the French were reduced to the last ex-
they make such alliances, and how far it is probable they will
tremity, and that they were not in a capacity ever to recover
keep to the letter of their engagements. As to the King of
themselves. It • might naturally have been expected, that
Prussia, there was every reason to suppose, long before the
death would have been the consequence of this agony ; but
event took place, that he would make peace with France;
was that the case ? Far from it. The events of the last three
that it was his interest so to do: and .with respect to Spain,
weeks have been of a nature sufficient to prove that their •
it was apparent to the most short-sighted statesman, that her
agonizing struggles may in the end destroy their enemies,
‘,„
ministers could not protract the conclusion of a peace with
and draw them into that gulf of ruin, in which they had
the victorious republic, without endangering the existence
flattered themselves the French would have been irrevocably
of the Spanish monarchy itself. It was, therefore, an incum-
buried.
bent duty on ministers to have foreseen the probable con-
The state of the French finances has been another argu-
sequences of their alliances: if they had possessed any of that
ment to prove their inability to continue the war. God for-
necessary foresight, they would, during the last session of
bid, that the finances of this country should ever be so in-
parliament, have used their endeavours to have procured a
volved ! But the French have now got over the worst con-
peace, while the confederacy was acting in concert, and not
sequences resulting from the state of their finances. France
have waited till it was dissolved.
has been placed in that situation, wherein it has been neces-
It is alleged, that the form of government in France was
sary to call forth all the property of the country, in order to
not such as to enable ministers to treat for peace upon any
maintain the quarrel. Without recurring to the mode of ar-
sure foundation. I, however, am one of those who think that
gument which was made use of yesterday, with respect to the
the government, so far as respected external relations, was
new mode of taxing capital, I hope, if ever we should be in
of no consequence to the contracting parties. If an absolute
the situation of the French, that we shall not hesitate to ex-
government is, as it is thought to be, the best to enter into
pend the whole capital of the country, rather than have a
engagements with, surely no one will deny but France was
constitution imposed upon us by a foreign enemy. I had ra-
an absolute government during the tyranny of Robespierre,
ther that all should be taken away by the calamities of the
as well as during the reign of the prior and succeeding fac-
present war; I had rather that we should be forced to submit
tions. The acts of those 'factions were never afterwards
to one, two, three, or four requisitions of all the adults in the
revised, with respect to external relations. But, you say, you
kingdom; all this I would rather submit to, than that the
must wait till there is a regular constitution established. IS
Country should experience the misery of absolute servitude.
that the most proper time to retrieve your losses by nego0
You have reduced France to the situation of absolute bank
ation, when they have settled themselves in a permanent
; but that bankruptcy is past, and now they have the
government, ascertained the limits and boundaries of their,
Whole resources of the country to bring forth against you.
conquests, made the whole subject to their general laws, So
It is now twelve months since we conceived them in such a
communicated to what was your territory every inherent
state of bankruptcy, as to be incapable of resistance. It was
quality of their own departments ? We were told, several yeals
the boast of Austria, that she had recovered her losses; but
ago, that the French were reduced to such extremity, that
t
we see the campaign open this year with such gigantic efforts
they could not possibly find resources to enable than „
on the part of the French, as to leave no room to hope that
continue the contest much longer ; and only last session e•
we Can ever be able to resist them.
was asserted, with the utmost degree of confidence, that they
At the commencement of the present session, his majesty,
2
196
MR. Fox's MOTION ON THE
[May I.
1796.3
CONDUCT OP THE WAD. WITH FRANCE.
197
in his speech from the throne, intimated a disposition trene_
olio]; of such a communication from ministers, who for several
gociate, and had more fully manifested that disposition in his
year:;
v
a have traduced the principles and governments in France;
message of the 8th of December. -Why did not ministers make
,'Ind reviled all the ruling men in that country ; from ministers
the attempt at that time, which was peculiarly favourable for
who delayed that communication for three mouths? I could
such a measure, as the campaign could not well be opened for
not believe the sincerity of their offers.
some months? instead of this, we -find that the first step
It is not regular to-mention what has passed in former de-
taken was on the 8th of March, threeltrionths: after the cone
bates; but, if I may be .permitted to allude to the arguments
munication of the earnest desire for' peace contained in the
advanc ed a fe'Ve evenings ago, upon the subject of the King
king's message; and four months after the same sentiments
of Sardinia's subsab we shall find a full illustration of the
had been avowed in his sp eech from the throne. This delay
minister's motives,- in making the pretended offers of peace
has not been occasioned by a wish to consult with our allies,
through Mr. Wickham. On that occasion, it was said, that
and obtain their concurrence, for it does not appear that they
it was by no means certain; that the overtures of his Sardinian
either sanctioned or disapproved it. An allusion was made
majesty were made with the view of obtaining peace. It was
to them in Mr. NATickham's letter; but in order to justify the
most probable, that they were made in consequence of the
delay, the application should have been made in the name of
pressure of circumstances, and that all his object was to know, •
them all, 'and sorry
terms should have been offered.
what were the conditions on which the French would consent
This was not the case. Mr. 'Wickham's letter was such as
to a pacification; for he had no real intention of putting an
might have been agreed upon in a quarter of an hour, instead
end to the war. I cannot conceive more happy expressions
of three months. But this letter, after all, expressed nothing
to explain the views of his majesty's ministers, in making
more than was container in the king's speech, and cannot be
overtures through Mr. Wickham. They were no doubt ac-
produced as a new proof of the desire of ministers for peace.
tuated by the same motives that guided his Sardinian majesty,
It has been said in this House, and his majesty's ministers
and the French might well suppose that their pretended offers
have particularly supported the opinion, that the contagion
were produced by the pressure of circumstances, and made
of French principles is highly dangerous to this country.
with the view rather of protracting than concluding the war.
Those principles and their supporters in France, have been
The pretence set up by the -French, that they could not give
treated in: this House with every mark of insult and contempt,
up any territories which had been consolidated with the re-
with every expression of disgrace and detestation. The first
public, is, indeed, a matter of regret, but it is a circumstance
thing ministers should have done, was to remove the un-
that doubles my indignation against those ministers who
favourable impression, the hostile disposition which their
have brought us into this lamentable situation, who have de-
language and conduct must have created; and the first step
ferred any proposition for peace till a period when the diffi-
towards accomplishing this, was a full and unequivocal recog-
culties are such, that there is no prospect of obtaining it on
nition .of the French republic. Towards the conclusion of
safe and honourable terms. I see great triumph on the other
the American war, some gentlemen in this House thought an
side of the House, and I do not wonder at it. Their object
acknowledgment of the independence of America should be
was to delay overtures of peace till they could not be accepted,
made the price of peace. I always thought otherwise, and
and they have succeeded. This may be a manoeuvre in war,
that it ought to be made freely and gratuitously. But whe-
but It is not an act of which a minister, sincerely desirous of
ther I was right or not, the present is a question materially
Peace, ought to boast. That it was such a ]manoeuvre, I am
different. We have no claim on France, like that which Ire
convinced, by the eagerness and exultation with which the
had on : America, and therefore the less would have been the
correspondence has been published. Is there no better means
ce
sacrifice in recognizing the republic. But so far from doing
ifa'tniloank? A
ingtlie government of France believe the sincerity of
this, Mr. 'Wickham's note does not even hint at the term'
Your wishes for peace? Why is it not considered how other
that would be acceptable. This reserve may in some cases be
treaties
es have been made?
not malke your disposition
ition for
prudent and wise. In the present case I see neither prudence
Peac known
various other channels
channe s than an
nego.
nor wisdom. Instead of either recognition or offers, you tell
And above all, why not recognize the republic,
the directory, that your minister is not empowered even !(:'
renrd
ounce any design against it on account of the princia
negociate. To argue this point fairly, I must put myself ill
Nes on which it was founded ? When that great man, the
the situation of the enemy, and here I rnust .ask, \\lila could I
and Lord Chatham, was consulted respecting the best mode
o3
19 gam. FOX'S NOTION ON Tilt
[May c)
96.]
CONDUCT or THE WAR WITH FRANCE.
1 99
of terminating the unfortunate dispute with America, did he
„, have declared this to Louis XVIII.; and it would have
send to know what were the terms demanded by the Ameri.
been an act of prudence to yourselves, with a view of con-
cans ? : his opinion was, that nothing would effect a corn.
„in cing the directory of the sincerity of the change in your
plete conciliation, but a complete change in his majesty's
sentiments; it would have freed the unfortunate emigrants
councils.— f A laugh on the treasury bench.] — Gentlemen
from all farther suspense respecting their fate, and would
may laugh, but I do not understand how the calamities of the
have convinced the French government of your actual solici-
people, brought on by the present councils of his majesty, can
forr peace.
be a subject of merriment. To remove those calamities, a
tude,l here
And must beg pardon of the House, for entering
total change, not only in the councils of his majesty, but in
into a short digression on the double dealing that has been
his counsellors, is absolutely necessary ; for to suppose, after
used towards the unfortunate emigrants from France, and
their recent conduct, that they will abandon those principles
observe, that it a most consoling circumstance to me, that not
of action which have brought on us so many misfortunes, is
one of them owes the smallest atom of his misfortunes to any
absurd. They have not in any way manifested such a change,
thing I ever did or said. It was natural that those unhappy
The administration which conducted the American war, was
men, when they heard that the estates of Englishmen were
found unfit to settle the peace; and yet Lord North, of whom
insecure, unless the estates of the emigrants were restored ;
as a private man I never can speak but with respect and
when they heard that we could not make peace with the re-
esteem, had a most conciliating disposition, and never was
publicans, without laying the head of our sovereign on the
considered to be personally anxious to establish our dominion
block ; when they heard that Great Britain was fighting for
over America, neither had he spoken with so much acrimony
her very existence; it was natural for them to' say, we may
of our enemies as has lately been the case. He might have
safely risk ourselves in the same bark that carries Cmsar ; we
treated with more advantage than our present ministers, and
may venture our fortunes along with that of the British empire.
yet it was found necessary that he should resign.
With these opinions, which they imbibed from speeches de-
The change of feeling towards the French must have been
livered in this House, the royalists had been drawn from all
very sudden in the right honourable gentleman ; for at the
parts of France, fully persuaded that they would be cordially
time he was making pacific professions, he was sending an
received here. But how have they been duped with ambi-
expedition to the coast of France, which if it had succeeded,
guous declarations, made purposely to deceive them into an
would have compelled him to declare Louis XVIII. king.
idea that they were to fight for the restoration of the French
Had the island of Noirmoutier been taken in the name of
monarchy, and of their own property ; when, in fact, they
Louis XVIII. in whose name it was summoned by a British
were only set on to fight for the fluctuating views of ministers,
officer, how could ministers have recognized the republic?
who never regarded their personal welfare, or the cause they
It appears, then, that their conversion is very sudden, and
wished to support, as an object of real importance ! In this
sudden conversions are most suspicious. It is but too mani-
manner many of the emigrants have been seduced to their.
fest, that they never were sincerely desirous of negociating a
ruin, and it would be but an act of justice to tell them we arc
peace with the French republic. They might, indeed, draw
not now fighting for the restoration of the French monarchy,
up a paper with the ingenuity of special pleaders, that might
lye are not now fighting for the restoration of your property
serve as a declaration in a court of law, but which from its
our only object now is, to regain the territories we have
ambiguous mode of expression, could not satisfy a more liberal
j
lost — we are -fighting only about the conditions of peace.
udgment of the sincerity of their wishes for peace. I do not
The question now is, whether ministers have really changed
wish to visit the sins of the father upon the son ; I do not
their sentiments respecting the origin and objects of the war.
wish that the descendants of the house of Bourbon should
If they have, they should prove it by some unequivocal act or
be treated in the manner in which they treated the unfortu
declaration. If they have 'not, as I suspect is the case, then this
-nate house of Stuart; but if your pacific offers were sincere)
House should entreat his majesty to change his councils. I
you should have disowned Louis . XVIII. as King of France.
know it will be said, ” What ! you have been speaking three
You should have recalled Lord Macartnev, who was sent as
/lours, and all for the purpose of procuring a change of minis-
ambassador to him, anti avowed that you made war on France
ters, because such a change might be advantageous to yourself."
as a republic, and consequently that you recognized it as
To this I can only answer, that I never will take a part in the
such. It would have been a becoming act of justice in yo
government, till the principles upon which the present war has
0 4
200
MR. FOX'S MOTION ON THE
[May 10.
,796.]
CONDUCT Or' THE WAR WITH FRANCE.
20I
been made, till the principles upon which our domestic politics
has been collaterally supported by England. This is a mortal
-have been conducted during its continuance, have been cow,
blow to another professed object of the war, the balance of
pletely renounced and abandoned; for it is to them that we me
Will any man believe that the avowed object of the
power. Wil
trace the source of all the evils with which we are now afilich .
the destruction of jacobinism in Poland, was the
No minister who commenced and carried on a war, ever made zin
real cause of dividing that unfortunate country ? And will
advantageous peace; but if the present ministers expect to prove
any man contend that England and France united, might not
an exception to this rule, they should shew that they are seriously
have prevented that transaction, and by that means preserved
convinced of their past errors; they should renounce the prin-
the balance of power in Europe ? But Poland was abandoned
ciples on which they have acted, before they can hope to put
to its fate, suffered to be sacrificed, annihilated, destroyed, for
an end, with safety and honour, to a war which they have
the sake of those absurd and vicious principles, which govern
conducted with so much rancour and with so little success.
the policy of ministers, and which have involved us in the
It has been said, let us persevere a little longer, and we shall
present war. These principles must now be deserted. If the
ultimately succeed ; mandlits are as much depreciated now, as
country is to be saved, we must retrace our steps ; that is the
assignats were formerly; France cannot, therefore, continue
only course which presents any hope of an effectual cure for
the contest long. In answer to this I will only say, look at
the evil. All other remedies arc mere palliatives, which must
the effects of the war upon ourselves, and consider well how
rather prove mischievous than useful. What I recommend
long we shall be enabled to carry it on. Between fifty and
therefore is a complete change of system. Mr. Fox concluded
sixty thousand men have already been sent to the West Indies;
a speech which lasted nearly four hours by moving,
the mortality has been great among them, and the advantages
comparatively trifling, for if we have taken Martinique — St.
" That an humble address be presented to his majesty, most
Vincent's and Grenada are laid waste. The Dutch posses-
humbly to offer to his royal consideration, that judgment which
sions, it is supposed, will form our chief indemnity at the
his faithful Commons have formed, and now deem it their duty to
peace. I will say little as to the fairness of taking these from
declare, concerning the conduct of his ministers in the commence
. a nation, to preserve the territory of which we professedly
went, and during the progress, of the present unfortunate war.
went to war. I am told, ministers do not now wish the
As long as it was possible for us to doubt from what source the
national distresses had arisen, we have, in times of difficulty and
Stadtholder to be restored ; but I will only remark, that our
peril, thought ourselves bound to strengthen his majesty's govern-
extensive colonies in different quarters are already a great
ment, for the protection of his subjects, by our confidence and
incumbrance to us in time of war; they exhaust our strength,
support : but our duties, as his majesty's counsellors, and as the
and if our maritime force shall ever be • equally opposed by a
representatives of his people, will no longer permit us to dissem-
hostile power, their possession will be very precarious.
ble our deliberate and determined opinion, that the distress, dif-
We have, Sir, completely tailed in all the objects for which
ficulty, and peril, to which this country is now subjected, have
the war was commenced. Holland is lost, the King of France
arisen from the misconduct of the king's ministers ; and are likely
exiled, and the aggrandizement and power of the French
to subsist, and to increase, as long as the same principles, which
republic
have hitherto guided these ministers, shall continue to prevail in
_ is more alarming than ever. Of our allies, the King
the counsels of Great Britain.
of Prussia, who was the first to treat with the French, has
" It is painful to us to remind his majesty of the situation of his
sustained the least injury ; the King of Spain has been forced to
dominions at the beginning of this war, and of the high degree
make peace, in order to save his dominions ; and the King of
9E prosperity to which the skill and industry of his subjects
Sardinia is now in the same predicament,- compelled, for his
bad, under the safeguard of a free constitution, raised the British
own safety, to accept such terms as the directory may cause to
empire, since it can only fill his mind with the melancholy recol-
grant. The fate of this monarch, whose good faith was so
lection of prosperity abused, and of opportunities of securing per-
loudly extolled in a late debate, who was termed the very pat-
manent advantages wantonly rejected. Nor shall we presume to
tern of fidelity, most forcibly and unequivocally demonstrates,
wound his majesty's benevolence by dwelling on the fortunate con-
sequences which might have arisen from the mediation of Great
that in proportion as every ally of this country, in the present
B ritain between the powers then at war, which might have en-
contest, has been a pattern of fidelity, he has also been an
sured the permanence of our prosperity, while it preserved all
example of misfortune. The Empress of Russia has indeed
Europe from the calamities which it has since endured ; a media-
Buffered nothing. It is impossible not to see, that her only
l ion which this kingdom was so well fitted to carry on with vigour
object in the alliance was to plunder . Poland; in which she
and dignity by its power, its character, and the nature of its go-
202
MIS. FOX'S MOTION ON THE
L may i
1 796.
CONDUCT OF THE WAR WITH FRANCE.
203
vernment, happily removed at an equal distance from the contend,
ice of a design to interpose in the internal government of France
ing extremes of licentiousness and tyranny.
es;.as too manifest not to rouse into active hostility the national zeal
" From this neutral and impartial system of policy, his majesty's
of that people; but their particular projbcts were too equivocal to
ministers were induced to depart, by certain measures of the
attract the confidence, or procure the co-operation, of those
French government, of which they complained as injurious and hos-
Frenchmen who were aisaffected to the then government of their
tile to this country. With what justice these complaints were made.
countr y. The nature of these plans was too clear not to provoke
we are not now called upon to determine, since it cannot be pre.
awn:lidab le enemies, but their extent was too ambiguous to conci-
tended that the measures of France were of such a nature as to
liate useful friends.
preclude the possibility of adjustment by negociation ; and it is
"We beg leave farther to represent to your majesty, that at sub-
impossible to deny, that the power which shuts up the channel of
sequent periods, your ministers have suffered the most favourable
accommodation must ever be the, real aggressor in war. To reject
opportunities to escape of obtaining an honourable and advantage-
negociation is to determine on hostilities ; and whatever may have
ous pacification : they did not avail themselves, as it was their duty
been the nature of the points in question between us and France,
to have done, of the unbroken strength of the great confederacy
we cannot but pronounce the refusal of such an authorised com-
which had been formed against France, for the purpose of giving
munication with that country, as might have amicably terminated
effect to overtures for negociation they saw the secession of seve-
the dispute, to be the true and immediate cause of the ruptare
ral powerful states from that confederacy ; they suffered it to dis-
which followed. Nor can we fin-bear to remark, that the pretences,
solve without an effcbrt for the attainment of a general pacification :
under which his majesty's ministers then haughtily refused such
they loaded their country with the odium of having 6
enuaged with
authorized communication, have been sufficiently exposed, by
the most questionable views, without availing themselves of that
their own conduct, in since submitting to a similar intercourse with
combination for procuring favourable conditions of peace. That,
the same government.
from this fatal neglect, the progress of hostilities has only served
" The misguided policy, which thus rendered the war inevitable,
to establish the evils which might certainly have been avoided by
appears to have actuated the ministers in their determination to
negociation, but which are now confirmed by the events of the war.
continue it at all hazards. At the same time we cannot but ob-
We have felt that the unjustifiable and impracticable attempts to
serve, that the . obstinacy with which they have adhered to their
establish royalty in France, by force, has only proved fatal to its
desperate system is not more remarkable than their versatility in
unfortunate supporters. We have seen, with regret, the subju-
the pretexts upon which they, have justified it. At one period the
gation of Holland and the aggrandisement of the French republic ;
strength, at another the weakness, of the enemy, have been urged
and we have to lament the alteration in the state of Europe, not
as motives for continuing the war : the successes as well as defeats
only from the successes of the French, but from the formidable ac-
of the allies have contributed only to prolong the contest ; and
quisition of some of the allied powers on the side of Poland ; ac-
hope and despair have equally served to involve us still deeper
quisitions alarming from their magnitude, but still more so from
in the horrors of war, and to entail upon us an endless train of
the manner in which they have been made: so fatally has this war
calamities.
operated to destroy, in every part of Europe, that balance of
" After the original, professed, objects had been obtained, by
power for the support of which it was undertaken, and to extend
the expulsion of the French armies from the territories of Holland
those evils which it was its professed object to avert.
and the Austrian Netherlands, we find his majesty's ministers in-
"Most cordially, therefore, did we assure his majesty, this his
fluenced either by arrogance or by infatuated ambition and vain
I faithful Commons heard with the sincerest satisfaction, his majesty's
hope of conquests, which, if realized, could never compensate to
most gracious message of the 8th of December, wherein his ma-
the nation for the blood and treasure by which they must be ob-
jesty acquaints them that the crisis, which was depending at the
com
tained : rejecting, unheard, the overtures made by the executive
mencement of the present session, had led to such an order of
council of France, at a period when the circumstances were so
things as would induce his majesty to meet any disposition to nego-
eminently favourable to his majesty and his allies, that there is every
elation, on the part of the enemy, with an earnest desire to give it
reason to suppose that a negociation, commenced at such a junc-
the fullest and speediest effect, and to conclude a general treaty of
ture, must have terminated in an honourable and advantageous
Peace whenever it could be effected on just and suitable terms for
peace. To the prospects arising from such an opportunity they
himself and his allies. That from this gracious communication,
preferred a blind and obstinate perseverance in a war, which could
they were led to hope for a speedy termination to this most dis-
a
scarce have any remaining object but the unjustifiable purpose Of
strous contest ; but that, with surprize and sorrow, they have
n
imposing upon France a government disapproved of by the inhabi
ow reason to apprehend that three months were suffered to elapse
u-tants of that country. And such was the infatuation of these n
before 'any steps were taken towards a negociation, or any over-
-nisters, that, far from being able to frame a wise and comprehen•
tures made by his majesty's servants.
sive system of policy, they even rejected the few advantages that
" With equal surprize and concern they have observed, when a
lair
belonged to their own unfortunate scheme. The general ex15t°
and open conduct was so peculiarly incumbent on his ma-
MR. FOX'S MOTION ON THE
[May to.
CONDUCT OF THE WAR WITH FRANCE.
204
:96.]
205
esty's ministers, considering the prejudices and suspicions which
illg t he usual privilege of reply, yet, at this period of the ses-
jtheir previous conduct must have excited in the minds of the French,
sion and of the parliament, he was so anxious to have his
that, instead of acting in that open and manly manner which be-
sentiments fairly understood, that he would avail himself of
came the wisdom, the character, and dignity, of the British nation,
In indulgence which he would not otherwise have required,
they adopted a mode of proceeding calulated rather to excite sus,
and make a few observations on
picion than to inspire confidence in the enemy. Every expres,
the speech of the right ho-
nourable gentleman. At the beginning of his speech the right
lion which might be construed into an acknowledgment of the
French republic, or even an allusion to its forms, was studiously
honourable gentleman seemed to dwell, with some degree of
avoided ; and the minister, through whom this overture was made,
xs,a elfle{liii.,a upon an imputed inconsistency which he affected to
Was, in a most unprecedented manner, instructed to declare,
discover in his arguments on a former occasion, when Turkey
that he had no authority to enter into any negociation or dis-
endangered by the Empress of Russia, and, in the present
cussion relative to the objects of the proposed treaty.
instance, with respect to the recent dismemberment of Poland.
" That it is with pain we reflect, that the alacrity of his majesty's
But, was the infamous partition of Poland in any respect to
ministers in apparently breaking off this negociation, as well as the
be compared with the circumstances of Turkey at the period
strange and unusual manner in which it was announced to the mi-
alluded to? The Turks, after an unprovoked aggression,
nisters of the various powers of Europe, affords a very unfavour-
were humbled by the power of the empress, and he had re-
able comment on their reluctance in entering upon it, and is cal-
culated to make the most injurious impression respecting their
probated the idea of the arrogant interference of this country
sincerity,
to prevent her from obtaining that indemnification to which
on the people of France.
" On a review of so many instances of gross and flagrant mis-
she was entitled. He had said, that if the concurrence of
conduct, proceeding from the same pernicious principles, and di-
France, in a. situation to act with effect, could have been ob-
rected with incorrigible obstinacy to the same mischievous ends,
tained, he would have advised our interposition to prevent
we deem ourselves bound in duty to his majesty, and to our con-
that horrible injustice, the infamous partition of Poland ; a
stituents, to declare, that we see no rational hope of redeeming
measure which would have been justified by a due regard to the
the affairs of the kingdom, but by the adoption of a system radi-
balance of Europe. The right honourable gentleman how-
cally and fundamentally different from that which has produced
ever seemed to consider the balance of power as very little
our present calamities.
" Until his majesty's ministers shall, from a real conviction of
affected, because the division which took place among the
past errors, appear inclined to regulate their conduct upon such a
three different states concerned in the transaction was so equal
system, we can neither give any credit to the sincerity of their
as to preserve that relation of strength which they mutually
professions of a wish for peace, nor repose any confidence in their
held to one another. This argument, upon its own principle,
capacity for conducting a negociation to a prosperous issue.
could only be good, if the division had been so exact al-to
Odious as they are to an enemy, who must still believe them
preserve the proportion, not in any three, but in all the
secretly to cherish those unprincipled and chimerical projects,
states of Europe, by assigning a correspondent share to each.
which they have been compelled in public to disavow, contemptible
in the eyes of all Europe, from the display of insincerity and in-
But when a minister went so far as to overlook the injus-
tice of a few
capacity which has marked their conduct, our only hopes rest on
reat
&
in swallowing up the possessions
iiatti I
his majesty's royal wisdom and unquestioned affection for his
d destroy.,ing the independence of the little surroundino
zp
.
states, and
people, that he will be graciously pleased to adopt maxims of
to sanction that robbery- which kings inio
t
mightfina
policy more suited to the circumstances of the times than those
s ilea oy to practise, merely because the plunder was equally
by which his ministers appear to have been governed, and to
divided amongst the guilty, there was an end at once of the
direct his servants to take measures, which, by differing essen-
balance of Europe. But what was the injustice and the in-
tially, as well in their tendency as in the principle upon which
famy of this partition, how formidable the danger to the
they are founded, from those which have hitherto marked their
b
•
alance of Europe, when it was considered that the popu-
conduct, may give this country some reasonable hope, at no
was
very distant period, of the establishment of a peace, suitable to
onourable as equal to that of this country, and its
country
natural n
the interests' of Great Britain, and likely to preserve the tran-
wealth rnnd d
aa
resources great and important ! It was,
hindeeds
quillity of Europe."
a terrible principle, which was advanced by the
Mr. Pitt answered. Mr. Fox at great length ; after which,
gentleman, that (no matter for this injustice) the
balance of power remains the same, as those states, who have
Mr. Fox said, that though he felt it somewhat unreasonable
"`'I ded the plunder, have_ maintained in this new accession
again to trespass upon the patience of the House, by claim`
i6
ai
206
RR. EON'S MOTION ON THE
[May Io.
/796.]
CONDUCT OF THE WAR WITH FRANCE.
207
the proportion of strength they previously held to one
went should be recognized. With regard to La Fayette, he
,vas sorry that the right honourable gentleman, who found
another.
With regard to what had been called his special pleading
Himself obliged so often to interfere in continental affairs, on
on the subject of the communication between the French
an occasion like this, possessed so little influence. But what
government and certain societies in this country, he would
could he say with respect to the treatment experienced by
still ask, how it was possible for us, without acknowledf,
I. Alexander Lameth in this country ? The right honourable
ing the French republic then established, to found any 1110',
gentleman said, that whatever might have been the conduct
ceedings upon those communications, or to take any offence
of ministers, this House was not the place where he was to give
at the conduct pursued by the French, without referring
nay explanation. He had execrated the bill under which
it to the government, and stating it as a ground of dissa-
ministers had acted, on its first introduction"', and had fore-
tisfaction? It was certainly true, that he did consider the
told the abuses that would be committed, which lie now found
minister, in 1792, as sincere in his wish for the continuance
to be realized. But it was then said, that the bill inferred a
of peace. The right honourable gentleman had said, that
responsibility on ministers for their conduct under it ; if so,
this confession supported the presumption that ministers
ministers had incurred responsibility, and this was the proper
bad not gone to war precipitately. 'What he meant to
place to inquire into the subject. He asked, then, for what
show, however, was, that the general effects of the Revo-
M. Alexander Lameth was sent away ? That gentleman
reason ei
lution in France were not the causes of the war; for, at the time
had been
a constitutionalist, many of whom were employed by
when ministers expressed pacific intentions and hopes, many
us, and those alone were treated with harshness, who would not
of the events so much insisted upon, had taken place, and he
draw their swords against their native country. If any man
wished to confine the real causes to the three points which he
was deserving of particular respect and attention, it was the
had mentioned. The right honourable gentleman said, that
man who had been the zealous assertor of limited monarchy,
at the beginning of the war the success was such as to justify
who had been thrown unjustly into a Prussian dungeon, and
the hopes they entertained. This was precisely what he had
his health greatly impaired ; and yet he was marked out to
intended to illustrate, that, whether good or bad success oc-
Europe as the severest victim of our persecution, and as an ex-
curred, the argument for the continuance of the war derived
ample to those who should refuse to fight against their country.
equal support with ministers from either event. At the end of
It was said, that the effect of the motion was humiliating —
1793, it was said, that proposals for negotiation would have
but for whom ? Not for-the country, which he wished to se-
been humiliating, and would have produced an offer of terms,
parate from ministers as much as possible, but for ministers
which it would have been disgraceful to accept. But did the
alone. But it was said, that the war had been approved by par-
right honourable gentleman recollect the language he held,
liament, and sanctioned by repeated votes. But did the right.
and even announced from the throne, with regard to the events
honourable gentleman recollect, that in 1782, when the Ameri-
of 1793, when he said that the campaign had been as brilliant
can war drew near a conclusion, it too had been sanctioned by
as could have been expected, and equal to the most glorious
repeated votes, and supported by very great majorities? In the
campaigns of the war of 1763 ? The support of monarchy in
course of his reading that morning, lie had found in the works
France was justified as a desirable object of policy for the
of his deceased friend Mr. Gibbon, an observation, that during
purpose of dividing the French, and as a means of promoting
that war the sense of the people without doors, which had ori-
the security of this country. On the first point he presumed
ginally been favourable to it, began to turn ; yet the Houle
to differ, and he considered the support held out by thus
of Commons followed the change of public opinion, hod passi-
bus
country to monarchy in France as one of the causes of that
CC quis, —a remark, historical with regard to the past,
W
union which had prevailed among the French. -With regard
hich might have been prophetic with regard to the present.
to security, it was a vague, indefinite object, nor was it easY
By submitting his present propositions, he wished to give
to know to what it related. He understood, that at the col'
the people of this country an opportunity of rescuing their
ch
mencement of the war, the establishment of monarchy OS
aracter from any share in the guilt which ministers had in-
cu
left out of the question ; nothing but atonement and satisfac'
rred. The right honourable gentleman had talked:of the
tion were the topics insisted upon, arid it could only be fr°',11
the existing government that this satisfaction could be obtainen'
and for which purpose it was also necessary that the govern'
See Mr. Fox's Speeches on the Alien Bill, Vol, v. p. r.
2 o 8
.MR. FOX'S MOTION, &C.
[May. :'o;
/796.]
ADDRESS ON THE KING'S SPEECH.
209 •
derangement of the French finances ; but if the right honour.
French had talked of the British nation, without any notice
able gentleman reasoned from cause to effect, might notlie
of his majesty or the government, would not the right ho-
reason from effect to cause, and, from the astonishing vigour
nourable gentleman have dwelt on this as a proof of their
and success of the military operations of the French, conclude
insincerity in their desire of peace ? Since tile French had
that their finances either had not been deranged in the degree
bestowed upon the various republics of Genoa, Venice, Berne,
alleged, or were now re-established ? It was said, that no an.
8:e. their titles of Magnifique Doge, &c. they had been upon
theistic accounts. were received. of the late successes ; but, he
better terms with these states. The French, therefore, felt
believed, little doubt could be entertained of their truth.
from his conduct, that the minister discovered no serious in-
It was little doubtful that the French had an army of . o,000
clination for peace. Much as he disliked the system of an-
men in Italy, and he was persuaded, that when the Ger.
nexation which the French professed, still he thought that
man accounts, on which the right honourable gentleman
a
fair chance had not been given to -any proposals for nego-
relied so much, arrived, the army of the French would pro.
ciation. He wished the House to come to some resolution
bably be stated to be more numerous. It was urged, that for-
which would bring forward a different system of measures.
merly it had been admitted by opposition, that if prop°.
Of the finances he had said little. He reprobated the prac-
sitions of peace should be made, and not accepted, the elfect
tice of comparing the state of our finances with tile exhausted ,
would be to divide the French, and unite the people of
situation of the enemy, and thereby deriving arguments for
this country. But surely it was understood, when this ob-
perseverance. He was sensible that our resources were great,
servation was made, that proposals were to be made in such
and he was happy to consider them in that light; but the
a way as to have a fair chance of success.
efirts which the French had made, should convince us that
•As to what the right honourable gentleman had said of
their resources were not exhausted.
Mr. Wickham's communication, he had made the best defence
of the conduct of the French; for was it to be expected that
The House then divided:
any attention would he paid to a man who had no sanction
Tellers.
Tellers.
from the allies with whom we were connected, nor any autho-
yE s IVIr. Whitbread /
Smyth 1
rity to make specific proposals; or would the right honourable
42. ------ NOES
I Gen. Tarleton
s
r. Sargent
Jur.
gentleman have caused the correspondence with Mr. Wick7
So it passed in the negative.
ham, which was of a private nature, to be published, or have
published any private communications that might have been
made from the French, had he been serious in his desire of
pacification ? With regard to terms, certainly sonic atten-
tion should have been paid to the prejudices of the French.
If the right honourable gentleman reprobated the'conduct of
ADDRESS ON THE KING'S SPEECH AT THE OPENING OF
France, in not coining forward with proposals, why did he
THE SESSION.
not avoid the conduct which he considered to be presump-
tuous in them ? There might be reasons of policy which de-
October 6.
termined the French to adhere in appearance to the principle
of annexation of the conquered provinces, as there the war was
THE king opened the first session of the new parliament with
to be carried on, and it night be prudent to consult the in-
the following speech to both Houses :
clinations of the inhabitants of those provinces. This he
• " My Lords, and Gentlemen ; it is a peculiar satisfaction to me,
thought probable, but he stated it only from conjecture. He
thepresen t conjuncture of affairs, to recur to your advice, after
certainly considered the recognition of the French republic
Lie recent opportunity which has been given for collecting the
as of the last importance, and much more necessary as a pre"
sense of my people, engaged in a difficult and- arduous contest,
rer
liminary than the conditional recognition of America, duriuhr
the preservation of all that is most dear to us. — I have omitted
ihlo en
the last war. Though the French, acknowledged by almost all
deavours for setting on foot negociations to restore peace to
turope ,
Europe, and triumphant in their military career, might not
and to secure for the future the general tranqu
p
lillity.
The Steps which I have taken for this purpose have at ength
condescend to complain. of the circumstance of not being r e
,
oleL.d .
el)ei
e way to an immediate and direct negotiation, the issue
-cognized they.would feel and resent the indignity. II the
' Which must either produce the desirable end of a just, honour-
210
ADDRESS ON THE KING'S SPEECH.
[Oct. 6.
i 796.]
ADDRESS ON THE KING'S SPEECH.
2 I I
able, and solid peace for us, and for our allies, or must prove, b e-
the pleasing prospect of relief in that important article to the la-
yond dispute, to what cause alone the prolongation of the ealanii.
abiosourcholgra classes
es
i its]; community. Our internal tranquillity has
ties of war must be ascribed. — I shall immediately send a person
e
tirbed. The general attachment of my people
undisturbed.
to Paris with full powers to treat for• this object, and it is my aux.
t
British
B
o the ish constitution has appeared on every occasion, and
ions wish that this measure may lead to the restoration of general
the endeavours of those who wished to introduce anarchy and con-
peace : but you must be sensible that nothing can so much contri.
fusion into this country, have been repressed by the energy and
bute to give effect to this desire, as your manifesting that we
wisdom of the laws. — To defeat all the designs of our enemies, to
possess, both the determination and the resources to oppose,
restore to my people the blessings of asecure and honourable peace,
with increased activity and energy, the farther efforts with
to maintain inviolate their religion, laws, and liberty, and to deliver
which we may have to contend.— You will feel this peculiarly ne-
down unimpaired to the latest posterity, the glory and happiness
cessary at a moment when the enemy has openly manifested the
of these kingdoms, is the constant wish of my heart, and the uni-
intention of attempting a descent on these kingdoms. It cannot
form end of all my actions. In every measure that can conduce to
be doubted what would be the issue of such an enterprise ; but it
these objects, I am confident of receiving the firm, zealous, and
befits your wisdom to neglect no precautions that may either pre.
affectionate support of my parliament."—After an address in
elude the attempt, or secure the speediest means of turning it to
answer to the speech had been moved by Lord Morpeth, and
the confusion and ruin of the enemy.— In reviewing the events of
seconded by Sir William Lowther,
the year, you will have observed that, by the skill and. exertions
of my navy, our extensive and increasing commerce has been pro-
Mr. Fox rose, and spoke to the following effect — It is
tected to a degree almost beyond example, and the fleets of the
not, Sir, my intention to take up much of your time in what
enemy have, for the greatest part of the year, been blocked up in
their own ports. --The operations in the East and West Indies
I have to offer to the House on the present occasion ; but if I
have been highly honourable to the British arms, and productive
were to give a silent vote upon the motion which has just been
of great national advantage; and the valour and good conduct of
made, I apprehend that my conduct might be subject to mis-
my forces both by sea and land, have been eminently conspicuous..
construction. I know that it may undoubtedly be considered
— The fortune of war on the continent has been more various,
as presumption in an individual to take up any portion of the
and the progress of the French armies threatened, at one period,
attention of the House, merely to obviate the possibility of
the utmost danger to all Europe; but from the honourable and
misinterpretation, yet I feel that I should not do justice to my
dignified perseverance of my ally the emperor, and from the intre-
own principles, if I were to sniffer the question to pass under
pidity, discipline, and invincible spirit of the Austrian forces, un-
a silent vote. In the first place, then, the striking feature of
der the auspicious conduct of the Archduke Charles, such a turn
has lately been given to the course of the war, as may inspire a
the speech is — that his majesty has been at length advised to
well-grounded confidence that the final result of' the campaign will
do what it has fallen to my lot to advise his majesty's mini-
prove more disastrous to the enemy ,than its commencement and
sters to do repeatedly for the last three years, namely, to
progress for a time were favourable to their hopes.— The appa-
open a negotiation; this, which is the leading feature of the
rently hostile dispositions and conduct of the court of Madrid
speech, ought undoubtedly to reconcile me to the address
have led to discussions of which I am not yet enabled to acquaint
which has been moved, and I should be happy if it contained
you with the final result ; but I am confident that whatever may be
. no other features of a -less pleasing inspect, and that I could
their issue, I shall have given to Europe a farther proof of my
have given my entire approbation to every part of the address.
moderation and forbearance ; and " I can have no doubt of your
determination to defend, against every aggression, the dignity,
Of that striking feature I most cordially and highly approve.
rights, and interests of the British empire.
cannot forget how often I have advised this measure, nor
" Gentlemen of the House of Commons ; I rely on your zeal
flow often, without success, I have pressed it upon ministers;
but h
and public spirit for such supplies as you may think necessary for
owever I may lament that the counsel was not taken
the service of the year. It is a great satisfaction to me to ob-
before a hundred millions of money had been spent, and thou-
serve that, notwithstanding the temporary embarrassments which
sands of lives devoted to the cruel contest, yet it must draw
from
have been experienced, the state of the commerce, manufactures,
me my warm approbation now that it has been followed.
and revenue of the country, proves the real extent and solidity 01
‘1,-Ie who thought that the war was originally unnecessary, and
our resources, and furnishes you such means as must be equal 1°
il at every moment since its commencement was a proper mo-
any exertions which the present crisis may require.
t,Loi ent for beginning a negotiation for peace, cannot object to
" My Lords, and Gentlemen ; the distresses which were in
measure which his majesty has announced that he has
the last year experienced from the scarcity of corn are now, by. Ole
been
o
advised to take in the present moment. I will not say
blessing of God, happily removed, and an abundant harvest afford
Ile word about the particular and the fit time for such a
6
P 2
"212
ADDRESS ON THE KING'S SPEECH.
[Oct. 6,
1
ADDRESS ON TILE KING'S SPEECH.
ADDRESS
2,13.
1796'1
measure, all times appearing to me to be equally wise and
the last parliament, endeavours which I am willing to take
salutary for endeavouring to restore to the people the blessings
upon trust, I desire that it may be clearly understood that I
of peace. Nor will I recollect, much less retaliate, the per,
ain not to be precluded by my vote this night from animal-
sonal invectives that were thrown out against myself; that an
upon his majesty's ministers for their former want of
attempt to negociate with such a people, was to lay his majesty's
'erte]rtlt'
eilg
avours to bring about a negociation for peace.
crown at their feet, and that it was a degradation of the ho.
There is much, Sir, that deserves praise in the construc-
nour and dignity of Great Britain; that to propose to- open
tion of the present speech. Ministers have omitted the words
a negociation was, in fact, to sue for peace ; and that such
to which they have been so bigotted heretofore, of the war-
conduct vas
was neither dignified nor political. Such was the
having been undertaken for " the cause of religion, humanity,
language of the last parliament, and such was tliteua,iiltlinci
and social order," words calculated only to inflame and to
sion
content
made on the advic
e which I then gave.
exasperate the two nations against each other, and to set the
myself with repeating what I then said, that " to propose
probability of peace at a greater distance ; neither have
negociation is not to sue for peace." It is at every moment
t
b
hey asserted their constant and unfounded phrase, that "the
•
dignified and proper to strive to restore the blessings of peace,
war was just and necessary." They have acted wisely in thus
and it is certainly one thing to propose a negociation in which
abstaining from intemperate language; for surely at a time
terms arc to be fairly and manfully discussed, and another to
when they are about to negociate for a peace, it would have
sue to your enemy for peace. He who objects to this dis•
been peculiarly ill-judged and unseasonable, to have made use
tinction is not animated by that feeling which ought ever to
of language repulsive and bitter to the people with whom you.
be uppermost in the mind of a statesman — an anxious desire
had to treat; nor would it have been wise to introduce
of shortening the calamity of war, and paving the way, by
words calculated to prevent unanimity in this House, upon
every practicable means to that desirable end. He ought,
the course which his majesty has been slowly advised to
therefore, to make it manifest by his conduct, that no career
pursue; since with respect to the necessity of the war, and
of conquest and no reverse of fortune, can divert him from
all the jargon of epithets that have been applied to it, there
that single object — a negociation for peace in preference
must always continue to be a fundamental difference of
to any other object. I repeat, therefore, that I most per-
opinion.
fectly and entirely approve of the present measure, and will
There are other parts of the speech, which, perhaps, de-
not now mix my assent to that part of the address, with any
mand a little explanation, and which if we pass over for the
observation on the tardy and protracted manner in which it
time, it is to be understood that we are left at full liberty to
has at length been resolved upon.
enquire and to question the assertions hereafter; such is the
And thus approving of the principal feature of the address,
declaration of the flourishing state of our manufactures, trade,
I am extremely unwilling to oppose any other part of it, and
and commerce. I must take this upon trust. I cannot object
wish that it had been so worded as to have entitled it to the
to the assertion of a fact, the proofs of which I have not
perfect unanimity of the whole house. There are some ex-
before me. We shalt soon have the means of knowing, upon
pressions, however, of which I must take notice, and I 01
better authority than mere assertion, the state of the country ;
do so rather with the intention of explaining the vote which
and I trust it will turn out to be prosperous and flourishing.
I shall give, than of moving any thing upon them. And
VIII'
agreeing to the assertion in the mean time, must not be
first, in the beginning of the speech there is an express
construed to preclude us from enquiry, much less to involve
sion that his majesty has " omitted no endeavours" to open eine
it:ig
s:ut. When I hear it said, that by the flourishing state
gociation ; now, unless by the words " omitted no endeavours,
of our manufactures, .trade, and commerce, our resources are
tehqu
it is meant to say that every endeavour has been used since
pllboatr
11
the crisis in which we are involved, I must hesitate
1
the close of the last parliament, we ought not to agree to the
giving credit to an assertion which is so little supported by
expression ; for undoubtedly ministers cannot expect that
lc appearance of things. I must think, when I look
gentlemen, who like myself; objected so frequently to !het/
at the price of the general funds of the country, the state of
refusal to exert any effort at all, should now acquiesce 10
th e transferable securities of government, the monstrous
assertion that they had used every endeavour to bring about
discoun
ts upon the enormous quantity of paper which they
hay •
a negociation. Unless, therefore, it is meant to allude to thet
e issued, together with the daily conferences of which we
h
endeavours which his majesty has made since the close °'
ear for schemes to relieve the pecuniary embarrassments of
P 3
ADDRESS ON THE KING'S SPEECH.
[Oct.
179 6.3
ADDRESS ON THE KING'S SPEECH.
214
215
trade, I must think, I say, that our resources are in a less
of England than any former parliament that . ever sat within
favourable state than his majesty's ministers have chosen to
these
l
walls. Let me then, Sir, be clearly understood, that I
l
make us believe they are; and when the question comes
not join
do
join in this insinuation of praise upon these abomin-
hereafter fairly before us, then, and not now, will be the
able
nor ascribe to them effects which I believe inap-
proper moment for ascertaining the truth of this important
i Much as I wish for a general approbation of the
fact, and of making the proper declaration thereon.
measure of endeavouring to procure peace to this country,
There is one other part of the address, I believe it is nearly,
yet,
r I should think it was purchased at too dear a rate, if
if not the concluding sentence, upon which I cannot forbear
coupled with the approbation of these abhorrent laws; and
to make some observations; it is that part of it in which we
I have thought it my duty to say so much, that my vote may
are made to rejoice in the general tranquillity of the country;
net be misinterpreted into an acquiescence of this part of the
a sentiment in which I heartily concur, for tranquillity at all
times is a most desirable thing; but when we proceed farther
ad Idia'ers.
ns one, Sir, who thinks that the whole system of our
and hear this tranquillity ascribed to the wisdom and energy
foreign politics, on which this war was undertaken, has been
of' the laws, insinuating that the laws which were passed in
faulty : I think also, that springing from the same source,
the last session of the last parliament have secured to us this
our whole system of domestic policy has been equally Entity;
tranquillity, and triumphed over anarchy and confusion, I
They have run on together in a parallel progress, and have
must enter my solemn protest against the whole of this asser-
produced all the varied calamities which the people have
tion, and against all such assertions. I have never been
been doomed to suffer. I think, therefore, that whatever
convinced that there were any such persons in this country,
may be the result of the negotiation which his majesty has
or at least that there were any number of persons in this
been at length advised to open, still it will be the duty of this
country desirous of anarchy and confusion, worthy of the
House seriously to re-consider the system which has produced
attention of' his majesty, or of this House ; I therefore must
these evils, and to devise the means of preventing similar evils
solemnly protest against the insinuation, that it is to the
in future. Peace, I own to be our great object, the first,
energy of those laws that we are indebted for the general
the chief thing to be pursued, and if possible, to be obtained :
tranquillity that is said to have reigned. General tranquillity
but whether peace itself; without such a review and such a
arising out of the obedience which a rational people cheer-
change of system as may protect us in future from such
fully pay to good Jaws, must always be a subject of real re-
calamities, can restore us to our former condition, may be a
joicing; but, if it is meant to be said, that general tranquillity
matter of doubt. Peace would certainly be beneficial, even
leas sprung out of the two laws of the last session of the last
accompanied by the .bad system that has lately been intro-
parliament —laws which ought to be the object of our terror
duced. Peace might enable the people a little longer to
and abhorrence, and which are calculated to excite these
endure the evils with which that system is fraught ; it might
feelings I cannot rejoice in any such tranquillity. Should I
render it a little less pernicious on account of the advantages
be asked, have these laws produced tranquillity ? I answer,
which would flow from the revival of industry and trade ;
No : it is not in the nature of such laws to produce tran-
and therefore, at all events, let us have peace ; but let it be
t
quillity. Such laws may produce a forced quiet, which I
horoughly understood, that in the one case it will only be a
p
consider as a real alarm. Do we rejoice in such a tranquillity
alliative, in the other a remedy. Peace certainly is the
where discussion is to be stifled, and men are to brood Iii
chief object : it is preferable to any single object of policy ; but
w
secret over the grievances which they feel ? No : such a tran-
hether peace will be effectual, if there be no change in
quillity alarms me more than tumult. It is a tranquillity
our domestic politics, may be a matter of doubt. Peace, there-
which every man who loves freedom ought to see with pain
fore, shall have my cordial support, and every measure, like
every man who loves order ought to see with tarron
the present, that leads to the desirable event, or that makes
Sir, to the constitution no man can feel a stronger attac h
an opening towards it, ought to be received with unanimity
-merit than myself; but I will not sport with the word con-
by all descriptions of men.
stitution; I will not use the word without explaining h : InY
The noble lord who moved the address with so much credit,
attachment is to the constitution under which I was born--
as to justify the House in entertaining the most promising
under which I was bred --not to that of the last parliament'
expectations of him, (and the noble lord well knows that it
which did more to maim and disfigure the ancient constitution
must at all times afford me peculiar pleasure to see him diS-
P 4
216
ADDRESS ON THE KING'S SPEECH.
[Oct. 6,
096.]
ADDRESS ON THE KING'S SPEECH.
217
!F
•tinguish himself as he has done this evening,) — the noble
distinguished. If these things were omitted in the speech
lord, I say, went a little farther than the speech from. the
f
rom mere inadvertency, I shall be extremely glad to find that
throne, and in speaking of the proper period for negociation,
there is no other cause. But they are material in another
i
said, that " the present government of France, possessing sta.
of view. That the negociation may be successful, I
biiity, possessing security, was a proper government to
P0
'sincerely hope; but if unfortunately it should not, much would
gociate with." If you treat with a power, you ought to speak
have been gained by an attention to these things; they would
with respect of that power. It is therefore that I approve of
have served to have convinced the people that the nature of
the noble lord's sentiment; for it must have struck him, as
the contest was changed,. and that all ideas of restoring the
it must strike every sensible person, that if you mean to
• old government of France, or of interfering in the internal
negociate with the French government, you ought to speak
affairs of that country, had been abandoned. I am sure that
with respect and civility of the executive directory. I wish
t his would have produced the greatest advantages, on the
that something more of this kind had been introduced into
supposition that the war was to be prolonged; upon this sub-
the speech and the address. I do not mean to say that it was
ject, however, I do not mean to press any alteration in the
necessary to state the stability and security of the present go.
address, because, if omitted by accident, I will not thwart
vernment of France; but after all the jealousies and per-
the prosecution of the main object by my remark; they might
sonalities that have been entertained, I should have expected
refuse my amendment, though convinced of their own error,
that his majesty would have told us to whom he was sending
from an unwillingness to be so corrected; and this is not the
a person; and if not to what government, at least to what
moment in which I shall endeavour to throw any thing that
country. I should have expected, that if in our differences
may be construed into a check upon their conduct. It is my
with Holland, his majesty had sent a person on a mission to
wish to leave them full powers; and therefore I mention the
the Hague, he would have made mention of the States
circumstance without meaning to move any amendment in
General. I did expect, therefore, that he would, in this
consequence of .it.
case, have told us, that he meant to send a person to the
On the subject of the situation of this country with respect
executive directory of the French republic. I perceive gen-
to Spain I shall say nothing, because his majesty has in-
tlemen on the other side of the House laugh at this expres-
thrmed us that he is not yet enabled to acquaint us with the
sion. Are the members of the executive directory so obscure,
issue of the discussions that have been entered into with that
that if they had not been named, we should not have known
power. Ministers say that their conduct has been forbearing:
to whom we had been sending a person ? It is on this ac-
I hope it will be proved so. I hope, too, that the country
count that I thought the sentiment expressed by the noble
will learn by the severe lesson which the American.war, and
lord, respecting the present government of France, a proof
the present - war, have afforded them, that moderation and
of his good sense. I know it may be said, that-men are apt
forbearance are the characteristics most fitting a great nation,
to be tenacious of their own opinions; that I have carried
and • the most consistent with true magnanimity. I own I
the opinions I expressed during the American war into this
was sanguine enough to suppose that the American war had
war, and that, as in the former instance, I supported the
taught them . experience— I was mistaken ; a second lesson
recognition of American independence, I have in the latter
of adversity was necessary ; a second lesson they have had,
supported the recognition of the French republic. This may
and I trust it will prove effectual. On the differences with
be the case ; but I must contend, that it. is agreeable to
tSbilini, I shall, as I have before stated, say nothing; it is not
common sense, that when you enter into a negociation, there
now the period to look back, a retrospect must come, but
may be points which are not of a nature to be insisted upon
not at present; yet the very apprehension of a war with Spain
by the power negotiated with, but which are calculated to
aff
wisdom.
brds a proof of the short-sightedness of human w.
conciliate esteem, or if you will, to gratify the pride of such
is1:1
111 ei. f time when we entered into the war, Spain and Prussia
a power ; that the executive directory are in such a situation
were our firmest allies. Now, however, we are to expect,
as to have their pride hurt by the omission of such points,: I
the war be 'continued, we are to have an enemy in
do not believe; but if I were negotiating with any gentleman,
Of Prussia I hear nothing, but I may at least sup-
I should certainly take care not to do any thing that might
fp,roosie that we have no reason to expect any great assistance
- ,
seem to be a purposed omission, or a calling in question of
n iatpower. It has been saki that experience may be
any of the titles and dignities by which ,such gentleman was
bought too dear; as we have paid so dear a price for it, let
21 8
ADDRESS ON THE RING'S SPEECH.
[Oct. 6.
INVASION.
1796'3
219
us at least have the benefits of it, and let us go to negotiation
/loping for a peace that may he solid and permanent ? Must
with moderation and forbearance. Of the terms of peace I
we not own that there is something in the cause in which we
purposely avoid saying any thing. I know the resources of
lire engaged radically defective, that palsies our efforts, and
the country to be still great, and sure I am, that if the people
disappoints our strength ? that there is something which de-
arc convinced that the ambition of France renders it Metes.
wands from the common sense and from the prudence of
sary to employ force and to continue the war, those resources
Englishmen, a strict and a rigorous investigation, that we
will be afforded with the utmost readiness. What are likely
may discover what this something is, not merely to retrieve
to be the terms of peace, I will not even conjecture. What
t he present calamity, but to guard our offspring against the
hitherto has been done can only be considered as an overture
error in future ? A day will come for such a question ; and
towards that desirable object; but I have no difficulty in say.
I give my assent to the present address, without moving any
ing, that we ought to negotiate in the spirit of great moder-
amendment upon the points of which I do not cordially
ation. By the spirit of great moderation, I do not mean that we
approve, because when the day of such a discussion does
ought to accept degrading terms, but I 'will not hesitate to
come, I shall have an opportunity to state the sentiments
say, that I should be inclined to find less fault with terms that
that I think it important for the House to entertain upon
may be faulty on the side of moderation, than faulty from a
those points. 'With this reserve for a future day of discus-.
contrary principle.
sion, I shall not oppose the present address.
With regard to the Austrian victories which make a topic
of animated exultation in his majesty's speech, it may cer-
The address was carried nein. con.
tainly be right to rejoice in the gallantry they have displayed,
and the laurels they have recently acquired. No man ad-
mires their great military exertions more than I do; but let
it be recollected, that we arc called upon to rejoice on their
having recovered only a part of what was lost in this cam-
paign, and that it is not because they have reaped successes,
INVASION — AUGMENTATION OF THE MILITIA.
calculated to obtain what ministers themselves originally stated
October 18.
the object of the war to be, but because they have saved the
house of Austria from the utter destruction with which it
-rHE House having resolved itself into a committee of the whole
was threatened ; while we rejoice, I presume we can hardly
I House, to consider of the paragraph of his majesty's speech
flatter ourselves that the Austrians are likely to recover all
to both Houses on the 6th instant, which relates to the enemy's
that they have lost in the present campaign, much less what
having manifested an intention of attempting a descent on these
they have lost in all the campaigns that are past; and even
kingdoms, Mr. Pitt opened his plan for repelling the designed, as
well as future attempts. For this purpose, he formed a plan for
this, Sir, must furnish a new subject for reflection, which the
levying Ig,000 men from the different parishes for the sea service,
achievements of our navy still farther serve to corroborate:
and another for recruiting the regular regiments. In the pro-
the achievements of that navy have been brilliant and glorious;
jected levies for the land service, he considered two objects; first,
at no former period have they displayed greater gallantry/
the means of calling together a land force sufficient of itself to
and never perhaps equal skill. No eulogiums can be too,
repel an invasion, even independently of our naval armaments ;
high for their merits. Yet after all this, the character of
and, secondly, to adopt such measures in the levies as should not
the peace which we are desirous to obtain, and the utmost
materially interfere with the agriculture, commerce, and general
I
we can expect, is, that it shall be solid and of permanent
ndustry of this kingdom. The primary object was to raise, and
gr
duration : this, I believe, is as high a character as the peace
adually train, such a force as might in a short time be fit for
rervice. For this purpose he proposed a supplementary levy of
is likely to deserve. Then what must be the sort of conflict;
Militia, to be grafted on the old establisment, of the number of
in which we are engaged, in which, — after a four yeas
60,000 men ; not to be immediately called out, but to be enrolled,
successful exertion of all the skill and all the valour of 011;
officered, and completely trained, so as to be fit for service at a
navy, in which they have invariably conquered, and carrier
moment of daager. He also proposed to provide a considerable
the flag of England triumphant to every quarter of the
force of irregular cavalry, to be levied in the following milliner:
world — all our efforts cannot produce to, us a peace either,
every person who kept ten horses, should be obliged to provide
brilliant or glorious, but we must content ourselves Wit'
one horse, and one horseman, to serve in a corps of militia; and ,
[Oct.
220
INVASION —
1796.]
AUGMENTATION OF THE MILITIA.
221
those who kept more than ten, should provide in the same propo
whole necessity of the measure, we have only the authority of
tion ; and that those that kept fewer than ten, were to form the
the kings ministers, on which I do not choose to rely. I
selves into classes, in which it should be decided by ballot, who,
should have been unwilling to rely, in the last war, on the
at the common expense, should provide the horse and the horse-
authority of much better ministers than the present, and to
man : these troops were to be furnished with unifiirm and accou.
make that authority a foundation for such propositions as the
trements, arranged into corps, and put under proper officers. The
pres
whole number of cavalry proposed to be raised by this mode was
ent. It is not by the authority of ministers, but by the-
2o,000: the other supplemental troops amounted to 75,000 men._
striking exigency of a particular moment, that parliament
Mr. Sheridan said, he did. not mean to oppose the resolutions ; he
arc justified in adopting particular and extraordinary mea-
wished only to have some farther explanation, -and to be informed,
sures. I beg the committee will attend to this, and reflect on
whether the real object of all our military preparations was not the
all that has been said upon it by the right honourable the
extension of our colonial possessions in the 'West Indies? — After
chancellor of the exchequer ; they will then see that he has
Mr. Dundas had spoken in defence of Mr. Pitt's proposition,
dealt in nothing but generality; which, if considered as proof,
proves a great deal too much for the purpose of the right
Mr. Fox rose and spoke to the following effect: In this
honourable gentleman, for it proves that this species of defence
stage of the business it does not appear to me to be the duty
is applicable to this country in every war, since he has not
of any man to make an opposition to the measure now pro-
distinguished the exigency of the present moment, from that
posed. But even in this stage of it I have no difficulty
of any other in which this country has had the misfortune to
saying, that from the sense I have of the general plan, there
be engaged in war. This is one in addition to the very many
are many parts of it, to the adoption of which no eloquence
instances which his majesty's ministers have given of their
is likely to reconcile me. The right honourable secretary.
great eloquence in urging general arguments without any
who spoke last had been pleased to say in answer to the
specific applicability, in which they are eminently skilful,
observations of my honourable friend, that although the
when it is their object to take money from the people, and
French in case of an invasion may land no cavalry, yet it is
to increase the power of the crown. The right honourable
proper that we should be provided with cavalry to oppose
secretary has thought fit to pronounce a panegyric on the last
them. My honourable friend's observation did not call for
parliament, and to recommend its conduct for the imitation
this sort of answer. The right honourable gentleman ob-
of this. My opinion of the last parliament is, that it has
serves, that at all events this country : ought to make great
done more mischief to the real welfare of this country than
preparations at home, and that he is • satisfied, that if we
any other that ever sat since a parliament was ever known
should be under the necessity of going on with the war, these
or recognized in England; at least, since parliaments had any
preparations may be very beneficial to us in many respects.
credit for attendinu to the interests of the people. To hold
I object to the generality of this mode of speaking, because
r'
it up, therefore, as an object of imitation, is enough to con-
it conveys to us no specific information, and is likely, from
o
found any man who feels for the principles of freedom; —a
being just in the abstract, to entrap some into an approbation
parliament which has clone more to destroy every thing that
of measures which may lead to consequences of which persons
is dear to us, than in better days would have entered into the
so approving are not .aware. That if we are compelled ti
mind of any Englishman to attempt, or even to conceive.
go on with war, great preparations will be necessary, is a
Slim me a parliament, in consequence of whose proceedings
truth which nobody disputes; but it is a truth which con-
the people have been drained so much, and from which they
veys to us no information. It is applicable to this war, was
have had so little benefit ! Shew me a parliament since the
applicable to the last, and will be applicable to every war.
year 1688, the wra of our Revolution, that has diminished the
The right honourable gentleman should have applied his
rights, the best, the dearest rights of the people, so shamelessly,
reasoning a little more closely; he should have come to the
so wickedly, as the last parliament have done ! Shew me a
proposition which is now before the House. The question
parliament since that period that has so uniformly, so stu-
is this: — is the proposition before us fit to be adopted under
diously sacrificed the liberty of the subject to increase the
our present circumstances? If it be, then I say, that, for any
influence of government, as the last parliament have done !
evidence that appears before us, it was fit in 756, was fit ill
,To make it the subject of panegyric — to state its proceed-
t
1778, fit in 1794, and has always been fit in every period in
ugs to be such as to be worthy of imitation, is beyond en-
which this country has been engaged in ware. But, for •the
durance. Sir, I consider the last parliament as a curse to
2'22
INVASION —
[Oct. 1 8
1796.]
AUGMENTATION OF THE MILITIA.
223
this country. The leading principle on which they acted
l
we'-0 then thought to be necessary; and they were thought
tioua,
was that which leads directly to complete despotism —un_
else to be sufficient to keep the French from attempting the des-
limited confidence in the ministers of the crown. Shew
perate measure of an invasion. Are the French now more likely
a parliament since the Revolution, that has given such a con-
to make that despera te attempt than they were then ? Or are
fidence, and look at the effect of such practice. This is the
we not now in a better situation than we were then ? I con-
only war that has ever been conducted on the part of this
ceive that ministers themselves would answer these questions
country, in which there never has been one inquiry on the
in a manner very consolatory to the people of this country.
part of parliament. You see to what state that has led you
Such was our state in 1794. What is it now, and what the
already. Should this parliament be like the last (God in his
difference between the two situations? Ministers now tell us
mercy avert it I) this country will soon be in a condition, in
that an intention has been manifested on the part of the enemy
which it will be of little importance, whether they have a
to invade these kingdoms. I am too much accustomed to the
parliament or not. But for the conduct of the last parlia-
artifice of ministers to receive any very deep impression from
ment we should not have heard of the measure which is 110\\V
what they say. Did they not say formerly what they say
proposed to us.
now, that the enemy had some intention of invading this
I know I may be told that I often speak intemperately, and
country ? Certainly they did, and they were entrusted with
that I do so now, but I speak as I feel, and I think it is im-
force sufficient to prevent that calamity.
possible for any man to feel more strongly than I do at the
But, says tile right honourable gentleman who spoke last,
present situation of this country. Ministers tell us, that the
I am of opinion, that, as it may be necessary for this coun-
measure which they now propose is necessary to our safety.
try to carry on an offensive war, this measure may be of great
•
If it be so, it is their own conduct and the conduct of a con-
advantage, inasmuch as we may thereby be the better able to
fiding parliament, which has brought us into that situation.
avail ourselves of our forces." To this, as a general propo-
And what is
sition, I do not object. It is true. But then I say to minis-
tile measure which they now propose ? Why,
ters, 46
it is, in its nature, a requisition; an imitation , of the system
Bring before us the facts on which you say this mea-
of the French, against which so many vehement declamations
sure is necessary. What I object to is your duplicity. If you
have been pronounced : against the principle, applying it to a
really want this force, and to the extent you say you do, shew
settled state, justly; but as against the French, in their condition,
me the reason for it, and I will grant it cheerfully. All I
in my opinion, improperly, or at least in too unqualified a man-
want is, that you state to me the reasons. You did so when
ner. Ministers now tell us, however, that our situation is
you called for the augmentation of the navy, and you had it ;
such as to call for this measure. Granting it to be so for the
but do not ask any thing to carry on the war abroad under
sake of the argument only, I would then ask, what has brought
the mask of defending us at home ; for in that case you are
us into that situation ? To this I answer, without the least
asking under a false title what, under a real one, the people
difficulty, the confidence, the criminal confidence, of the last
of this country would not grant to you ; for, I know, they
parliament. One inevitable effect of that confidence of par-
to you, to prevent an invasion at home, what they
liament in the minister has been the want of the confidence
Would refuse with indignation, if asked to carry on the war
of tile people in the integrity of parliament. The right ho-
nourable secretary says, 64 it is good to be prepared." Cer-
But, Sir, it seems we are to have the responsibility of mi-
tainly it is so ; but when he comes to us, and makes this re-
nisters for the due application of the grant which they now
quisition, it is incumbent on him to shew us the reason why
call for. Look at the extent to which the principle of votine-
we should be thus prepared. He should lay before us the
such extraordinary measures as tlrse, upon the idea of respon-
si
ground on which he calls for that requisition. How stood the
bility, may lead you. By it you will introduce a practice
case in former periods of this war ? In 1794 there was
that must deprive the people of all their rights and all their pro-
much. reason for such a measure as there is now ; there was
should turn out (not an extravagant hypothesis),
tPhearttYa.l.
then as much of a rumour of an invasion as there is now ; and
this
els story about an invasion is a mere pretence to
g
so the ministers told us at that time. The House, -upon the
ain the consent of the people to the measure now proposed,
faith of the ministers' assertions, agreed to measures of the
and that the real object is extremely different, what then will
I.-
most unconstitutional nature, to avert, as it was supposed,
eccnie of the boasted responsibility of ministers? How are
the impending danger. Such measures, although uneonstiar
224
INvAsroN —
[Oct,
796.
AUGMENTATION or THE MILITIA.
225
we to make them responsible? We may say, and say truly,
historY of this country, and then shew me out of what page it
that " the event has proved there was no danger of an in•a..
is that you have discovered how and when it was, that the
sion when this measure was adopted." To which the minis-
ters may answer, and be assured they will, " True, there w4-
max-ims of a free government have been united with the prin-
ciples of despotism. I know it cannot be done. I know also,
no invasion, but then it was owing to the very measures which
that if you attend to history, and take it as a lesson, you will
we proposed, and you adopted, that the invasion was pre-
return to your ancient distrust and jealousy of ministers, who-
vented." How, then, arc We to make ministers responsible
ever they may be, and that you will examine minutely into
for what they do under such- a measure as this? The idea of
their conduct. Reflect on the consequences of the contrary
responsibility in such a case is perfectly ridiculous. Why, Sir,
practice. You see now before you the effect of it. Confi-
at this rate you may go on and do every thing that the minister
dence, in the first instance, renders confidence necessary in
may ask you, until you have totally destroyed the constitution;
the second. Confidence in ministers induces them to take
the principles have already been too much invaded by the
measures which they cannot continue without farther confi-
measures of the present ministers. There are some inconve-
dence; they are obliged to call for it in their own defence;
.niences that necessarily arise out of a free constitution. I
in that career you may proceed until you have confided away
know that many authors of great eminence have pointed out
the whole spirit of our constitution. I am afraid you have
those inconveniencies. I do not deny it, although I have
advanced in that career much too far already. In my opinion,
never seen them in so strong a light as the authors I allude to
the spirit of the constitution has been almost entirely set at
say they did ; but the advantages resulting from a free consti-
rest for a time, by the measures of the last parliament. Let
tution arc so great, so numerous, and to me so clear, that I
it be the practice, for it is the duty, of the present to revive it.
cannot patiently argue upon them, when they are put in the
There was an expression in the speech of the right honour-
scale against the supposed advantages of a contrary form. Be
able gentleman to which I cannot help alluding. He said,
that as it may in the opinion of others, I say, you cannot
" if the present negociation should be unsuccessful, then the
argue that subject in this House; for the people of this coun-
.present measure will be advantageous to this country." No
try have made their election : they have chosen a free govern-
man wishes more heartily than I do that it may be successful.
ment, and it is your duty to preserve it with all its inconve-
I wish it from every motive that can actuate a man; but I am
niences, if there be any that are worth mentioning. If,
not sure that the same feelings are entertained by his majesty's
therefore, when ministers pretend an alarm, you are to give
ministers. I hope they are. I say this by way of caution,
them whatever power they may ask for, when it is impossible
lest the world should suppose I am such a devotee to the pre-
you can attach any responsibility to them, as I have proved
sent administration as to suppose that any negociation in
. already in this case you cannot, why then you desert the point
Which they may fail may render peace to this country totally
on which the people of the country have already made their
unattainable. Notwithstanding there arc many new members
election ; and, instead of the blessings which your ancestors
, iu this House, they know, I believe, enough of me and of
intended for you, you take what may appear to you, but what
my opinion of this war to be well satisfied that I abhorred its
never appeared to me, the advantages of despotism. This
com mencement. That feeling remains completely unchanged;
would be a fraud upon the people of this country.
and whatever'opinion the people may have upon the propriety
I know the eloquence that has often been employed to shew,
of the measure which is now proposed for the defence of this
or in attempting to show, by a flourishing antithesis, that we
island from an invasion, I trust this country will never relin-
possess all the advantages of a free government and those of a
quish the opinion, that the war was in its principle and com-
despotic monarchy, by possessing the wisdom which arises
mencement unjust, unnecessary and diabolical. If it shall
from a free discussion of the representatives of the people and
unhappily become our lot to defend ourselves against an inva-
the promptitude and dispatch of an unlimited monarchy.
Sian, ourselves we must defend ; but whether the proposed
Such an antithesis may answer the purpose of an ingenions
measure is more or less than we ought to agree to, or one
orator, and aid him in the course of a florid declamation;
that we ought to try, are questions of detail, and therefore to
but it can avail but little to any man who wishes for the safety
that detail shall I defer them. I cannot, however, permit the
of our constitution. I am of opinion, that our constitution,
particular parts of the measures to pass without taking notice
in its true spirit, cannot mix with any thing despotic. Have
of some of them. That part of the plan which refers to the
recourse to experience, the only unerring guide; read the
gaZeLzkv.
eeipers appears to me to be a measure of violent injustice
226
INVASION
[Oct.
1796.3
AUGMENTATION OP THE MILITIA.
227
to a class of persons who, as far as the tax which they bear
to alter the law in that particular. We are here told, that
goes, already contribute pretty handsomely to the support
the military force which is now proposed to be raised, is only
the state.
to act in case of emergency. What is that to be ? Until the
There is another part of the plan which I cannot pass by
French shall land upon -our coast? No such thing ; I know
in silence. The navy of this country is so much and so
that such a restriction cannot, and ought not to be imposed
u
justl y, the favourite service of it, that no man is willing to
pon executive goverment; because you should repel the dan-
find fault with it. I am the last man in the kingdom who
ear when you are threatened by it. Why, then, it will
would wish to do so, or to say any thing against any service
amount to this, that whenever ministers shall think fit to
that contributes so much to the greatness of this nation, as I
allege there is danger, the whole of this military power to
know the navy does. I feel, and I know I only feel in com-
be entrusted to them for the internal defence of this country
mon with all my countrymen, gratitude to the navy; but the
in case of invasion, will be entirely at their disposal. What
circumstance of impressing men, even into that service, great
security have we that no abuse will take place, respecting the
and valuable as it is, would not be a part which a judicious
application of this enormous force? What security. have we
friend to it would select for the subject of his panegyric. I
that we are not now voting for a force, said to be intended
am not now arguing the policy of the practice, for great as
for one purpose, but which is really to be applied for a dif-
the grievance may be to the individuals who are the objects
ferent object? What security have we for trusting that this
of it, the discussion will be unseasonable until we shall find a
vreat military force is not intended to supply the place of .
e
better mode for providing for that service, and therefore upon
other troops, who are intended to be sent abroad? The right
that subject I shall say nothing. But upon the subject of
honourable gentleman alluded to the safety of these king-
forcing men into the land service the case is widely different;
doms. I do not chose to follow him in that course, for I only
so much so, that I have never yet heard it defended in this
speak of the safety of Great Britain, when I canvass the mea-
country; and yet this measure seems to me to have that ten-
sure which is now before us. It is to that object, and to that
dency, for out of the force which is proposed to be raised,
only, that I intend it to be applied.
there is to be a certain proportion for the navy and a cer-
I do not know what information ministers may have respect-
tain proportion for the land service. I cannot, for one,
ing the intention of the French to attempt an invasion of this
conceive any danger to which this country, under all its cir-
Country. I have none, except what I derive from newspa-
cumstances, can be exposed, that would make me ready to
pers. I believe that the idea of an invasion is as visionary as
assent to a measure that had for its object the impressing the
that of succeeding in it. I believe the French have no such
subjects of this country into the land service. I cannot
intention ; for they have a government which is likely to be
assent to any measure that has for its object the increase of
much better informed of the disposition of the people and the
the military force of the kingdom in that manner. This
situation of the country, than to be led to any hopes of success
is entering into the very spirit of the French requisitions,
in such an attempt, therefore do I believe they will not be
:which we decry so much. The chancellor of the exchequer
guilty of the rashness to attempt it. But
ze
supposio they had
„
says, that only one-sixth part of them shall be exercised ata
desperate intentions; supposinoe,. they should attempt to
time, that is, only i o,000, and that they will not be called
carry them into execution, I have no doubt of the issue. My
to the service but in case of actual exigency. Now, are rot
hopes
is upon
pon that subject are as sanguine as those of any other
these words (abating the difference between a speech and the
man in this country. But what should we do in the mean
t
authority of the legislature) the very words of the act of par'
ime? What is the duty of this House at this moment? To
c
'Lament with . regard to the militia, which says, " unless ill
herish the spirit of freedom in the people of this country,
r1,
case of invasion or imminent danger thereof?' The collo
estore to them that for which their anstors
ce
have bled.
(pence will bethat the military force thus raised will be sub'
Take the ministers really responsible. Let their parliament
not be confiding
ject to military. law. I wish to know whether it was tlIC
' in the servants of the crown, but watchful
opinion of those who passed the act respecting the militia
and jealous of the exercise of their power. Restore to them
that they should beesubject to regulations, to which they 1DS:
9.1e right of popular discussion. Allow them to state freely
submit ? Certainly it was not ; and as it has been found .e7s.;
the grievances they feel. Repeal those laws which have for-
pedient to call upon them to conform to the rules now etlopte'
bidden the exercise of their most invaluable rights. In one
in that service, it would have been more fnanly
parliaillel'
''o d, instead of amusingz,
with panegyrics upon the form,
2 2
228
INVASION
[Oct.
/796.1
AUGMENTATION OF THE MILITIA.
2 29
allow them to possess the spirit of the old constitution of
niary burdens than any that were ever imposed for any
Deo
England : then will you indeed see the energy. of the people
rpose of government ; this, however, we are informed we
pu
of England, and then you will have no occasion for adding
must do, or forfeit our pledge to the king.
to your internal military force, for then even an invasion
Sir, the speech of the king I shall always consider, and
would never be formidable. These are your real resources:
it is usual so to consider it, as the speech of the ministers.
the rest are all imaginary. I shall give no opposition to the
They tell us there is danger of an invasion. I may be
plan that is now before the committee in its present stage;
willing for a time to suspend any inquiry into the causes that
but I think it lair to say, that some of the parts of it are such
have involved us in this difficulty and disgrace. I may be
as, in the detail, I shall think it my duty to oppose.
milling to suspend for a time an inquiry into the conduct of
those who have brought us into this danger; but must I not
Mr. Pitt obtained leave to bring in three bills : viz. r. A bill
know what it is ? Must the mere bringing us into danger be
for raising a certain number of men in the several counties of Eng.
of itself a sufficient claim to confidence? For one, I am of
land, and in the several counties, stewartries, royal burghs and towns
opinion, that from external causes there is no particular ap-
in that part of Great Britain called Scotland, for the service of his
prehension of an invasion ; but still more am I of opinion,
majesty's army and navy : 2. A bill for providing an augmentation
that if; under the pretence of strengthening the country, mi-
to the militia, to be trained and exercised in the manner therein di.
nisters are only doing as they have formerly done, strengthen-
rected, and for enabling his majesty to cause the same to be embo-
died in case of necessity, for the defence of these kingdoms : A
ing themselves and their principles; if they are expressing
bill for enabling his majesty to raise a provisional force of cavalry,
their apprehensions of danger only to produce this effect, why
and to require the military service of persons therein described, to he
then I should hesitate whether I would apply any remedy at
embodied in case of necessity, for the defence of these kingdoms.
all; but even should the danger really exist, I should hesitate
much before I applied such a remedy as this. We are not,
Sir, so young in the House as to imagine that, because we
October 31.
approve of the speech from the throne, we pledge ourselves
to all the measures which the minister may think proper to
On the order of the day for taking into consideration the report
of the committee on the militia augmentation bill, the measure
adopt, or that the vote we came to upon the first day of the
was strongly opposed by Mr. Curwen, and defended by Mr. Pitt.
session, bound us to pass such bills as these. With respect
After which,
to the bills, I sec some parts of them more objectionable in
their principle and provisions than others. Sir, the calling
Mr. Fox said : —I rise, Sir, to offer a few obseryatiom
upon so many men in the country, the putting them under
upon the doctrines that have fallen from the right honourable
martial law, and under officers of the crown, without those
gentleman who has just set down ; doctrines, which if they be
safeguards which are contained in the old militia acts, and at
true, we had better do that in words, which the present ad-
a time when the erection of barracks all over the country
ministration have been constantly doing in actions; we bad
evinces the system of separating the soldiery from the people,
better declare that the constitution of the country is only good
and according to the ingenious reasoning of some gentlemen,
for praise and for oratorical flourish, but that it is not proper
making the soldiers deaf if the people cannot be made dumb ;
for a state of warfare; we had better say that when ministers
Sir, the doing these things is a grievous hardship and op-
have brought the country into peril, that peril is a sufficient
pression. It is no light thing to make the people imbibe mili-
ground for confidence in them, and that when they have in'
tary notions and military prejudices under officers of the crown,
volved us in difficulty and danger, it is the business of the
without any of those checks and guards, which, I repeat it, are
people to surrender all their vigilance, to repose complete
contained in the former regulations relative to the militia. It
faith in them, or in other words, to suspend the constitution,
has lately been too much the fashion to forget old prejudices and
and to make the government of the country an armed mo-
old principles. Sir, I have no difficulty, much as the term has
narchy. We are told that it is enough for the king to acquaint
been ridiculed, in confessing myself an alarmist. I am alarm-
us that danger exists, and for us to declare that if it exists,
ed at the situation of the country. I believe that there is a
we will put the country in a situation to resist it; we are told,
faction in it, whose wish and endeavour are to- increase the
I say, that it is enough for us to pledge ourselves at once t .
Power of the crown, at the expellee of the liberties of the
such bills as these; bills which impose upon the people greater
People. I believed it. in common, once, with those who are
3
230
INVASION
[Oct. 31,
1795.7
AUGMENTATION or THE MILITIA.
23 1
now converts from that belief; who think now that ministers,
to invasion, to be one of those pretences which ministers do
whose measures they formerly so much reprobated, are so al..
pot believe, but which they bring forward in order to get
tinted with power, so glutted with patronage and emoluments,
strength for purposes which they do not chuse to state. The
as to have lost all those marks and features that rendered them
bill for the raising a force of cavalry is objectionable in all its
the objects of their former dread and detestation. I am not
shapes. If an invasion were certain, I should object to it as
one of these; I am not one who think that the lesser evil is
impracticable and tyrannical, and as tending to lay such enor-
—and, good God ! what is this lesser evil ?—the fear of the
mous taxes upon the people as would be almost intolerable.
liberties and rights of the people being lost in the power of
And at what period are we called upon for such taxes ? Be-
the crown ! With these feelings about me, can I be brought
fore the minister has opened what is usually called his budget.
to think that raising such a force, as that proposed ley the
When, Sir, I consider the conversation that passed in the
bill, is not a most alarming circumstance, to which nothing
former part of this day, and the excess that has occurred in our
short of the necessity of risking every thing, could possibly
expenditure, have I not ample reason to suppose that we
reconcile me ?
shall in the ensuing budget be called upon to bear burdens
And now, Sir, a word or two on the bills themselves ; and
equally heavy at least, with any that have been laid upon us
first, with respect to the present bill, by which men are to be
in the former years of the war ? When to those burdens, the
raised in the diffbrent parishes. Without entering into the
burden that will be imposed upon the country by this bill for
policy of the bill, I must contend that the general burden will
the raising an additional force of cavalry is added, I feel that
be very considerable. Do I mean to contend by this that bur-
I cannot consent to it without trying if any other measure can
dens ought not to be imposed in times of difficulty and peril?
be adopted less oppressive in its operation, and equally effec-
By no means ; but if we are now to provide against an exist-
tual in its consequences.
ing danger, we are not to provide against a general danger, but
The right honourable the chancellor of the exchequer, in
against a specific danger of an invasion of Great Britain by
recurring to what fell from my honourable friend, (Mr. Curwen,)
the enemy. Such is my opinion. Why then, I say, it does
has alluded to what he stated respecting his disbelief of the pre-
give me no good idea of the present ministers, when I see
sent alarm, because all former alarms propagated by ministers
them always bringing forward false pretences. When I see
have been proved to be false. The right honourable gentle-
them, under these bills, providing that the different parishes
man contends, that that disbelief' is against evidence, and con-
shall raise men, not for the specific purpose of resisting an
trary to the opinion of nine-tenths of the people. Sir, I re-
invasion, but for general military purposes ; when I see this,
member when an inquiry into the existence or non-existence
I must think that the real motive of the measure is not for
of any cause for alarm was demanded. That demand was
domestic service, but for the purpose of carrying on offen-
refused. Should that inquiry ever be entered into, I maintain,.
sive war abroad ; and in this opinion I am a good deal in•
that not only will it be found, that no reason existed for any
flueneed by what fell from a right honourable gentleman high
alarm, but that ministers, when they called out the militia and
in office (Mr. Dundas). I do not like to quote the words
summoned the parliament in 17 9 2, disbelieved the alarm them-
of any person in his absence, but, Sir, words that drop from
selves. Sir, .that measure of calling out the militia and sum-
ministers are not in the nature of expressions from com-
moning the parliament, will be a measure to be deplored to the
mon Men ; they come with authority and in an official shape.
latest posterity. It occasioned more rivers of blood to be
I cannot forget that right honourable gentleman's speech on a
shed and more treasure to be expended, than ever were shed
former night, when he said that the present plan was highly
or expended during the reign of that despot Louis XIV. On
eligible, inasmuch as it would enable his majesty's ministers
the subject of alarms, a ingenuity,
deal of inenuity, and I think
to prosecute the war abroad. If this be the fact, I would ad-
Misapplied ingenuity, has-been exerted on different occasions.
vise gentlemen not to be so active in their approbation of the
Some gentleman were alarmed about. the operation of French
measure. Do not be so impatient, as the right honourable,
Principles, and the consequences that. would result in this
gentleman has recommended you to be in your testimonies 01
Country from the French victories. That being mere matter
support. You will have opportunities enough of voting hun-
of reasoning, I have candour enough to believe, that though
dreds, thousands, and millions, I have no doubt, for carrying
the danger appeared to me to be very trifling, if any existed
on offensive war abroad. This, therefore, is what I complain
at all, yet that persons who entertained those apprehensions
of;- and I cannot help thinking the present alarm with respect
4
232
INVASION —
[Oct. 31,
579 6.]
AUGMENTATION OF THE MILITIA.
233
F'
were sincere; but that is not the alarm we are speaking of. I
roy sometimes he finished by a clamour for the question. I
am speaking of the calling regiments to the capital, and the
should not have alluded to the trials, had not an allusion been
fortifying of the Tower, as if an immediate insurrection were
rendered necessary by what fell front the-right honourable the
apprehended. Since that period, many innocent men have
chancellor of the exchequer. Our belief of the alarms is said
been arraigned by his majesty's government for high treason.
to be contrary to the opinion of nine-tenths of the people.
However certain persons may be inclined to blame the want
I do not think so; but if it were contrary to the belief not
of diligence in the lawyers, I think no complaint will be urged
only of nine-tenths, but of nine hundred and ninety-nine out
against them for not bringing a quantum of evidence, and that
of a thousand, I should still be equally inclined to declare my
too of a date considerably remote. Yet, though these lawyers
opinion; but I should augur very ill indeed of' the people, if
had access to all the sources of government, though they ran-
I thought that they could resist such evidence as was adduced
sacked and rummaged all the records possessed by adminis-
upon the trials. Perhaps I flatter myself that I am not in
tration, yet they-never produced a single proof— I do not say
such a minority as the right honourable gentleman sup-
to satisfy themselves — yet they never produced a single proof
poses. What I am in this House, I know not. What I
to satisfy the jury, that, when the Tower was fortified, any of
am in the country, I am equally ignorant of ; but I do •
those desperate traitors entertained such projects of insurrection
know, that if I speak of that part of the country which
as those that have been alluded to. I did not think that I
Lam best acquainted with, I have the good fortune to agree
should have been under the necessity of entering into these
in opinion with a decided majority. When I was called to
particulars this day; but when the right honourable gentle-
order, I was observing, that there was no ground for the ori-
man says, that our belief is contrary to the belief of nine-tenths
ginal alarm in the year 1792. I was going to remark upon
of the people, it becomes incumbent upon me to maintain,
those trials, that the prosecution of innocent men was dis-
that no solid ground of alarm existed at the time when these
graceful to the country, and their acquittal honourable. How
extraordinary precautions were taken. I wish gentlemen to
comes it that so many were acquitted ? Because so many
refer to the trials for high treason. I wish gentlemen to read
were prosecuted who ought not to have been prosecuted.
them, and tell me if they find the slightest trace of that insur-
Sorry I am, that I shall frequently have Occasion, to offend
rection, affected to be so much dreaded in December 1792.
the honourable gentleman who called me to order, if recur-
Upon these trials some have expressed an opinion that they
ring to past actions, in order to form my opinion of the fu-
are the disgrace of the country; others have said that they
ture, be against the established rules of the House. The
contribute to its honour. Strange as it may seem, I agree in
country, I allow, is in a situation of great difficulty, in a
both those opinions. I think that they were disgraceful.
situation of danger, cruel danger, but not so much from
[llir. Yorke here said, that he was obliged to call the right
any apprehension of an invasion on the part of the enemy ;
honourable gentleman to order, as he conceived he had wan-
it is in a state of peril from which there is no way to
dered from the question, and if such latitude of discussion were
extricate it, but by a retrospective view of the measures
indulged, the present question would not be decided that night.
of ministers, and a judicial examinination of their conduct.
The Speakersaid, that he conceived Mr Fox to be perfectly in
I have stated that the three bills are doubtful measures,
order. He opposed the re-commitment of the present bill,
even supposing extraordinary measures to be necessary. In
upon the ground that the alarm of an invasion had been raised
1 794, after the great arming of the country, we were told that
upon false pretences; a proposition which lie illustrated by
the force then embodied was sufficient to resist any invasion
recurring to the history of former alarms. He admitted, how-
that might be attempted. What is the situation of the country
ever, that he was rather too particular upon some of these
now ? An honourable friend of mine states that it is in a
points; but he did not consider himself as called upon to in-
state of great internal quiet. In this opinion, as in most
terrupt him.] Mr. Fox in continuation—I am not quite
others, I perfectly agree with him, if he means that there is
satisfied, Sir, with the mode in which I was called to order.
in the country a general love for the constitution. I have no
We have not yet imbibed such a detestation of equality, as
doubt of it; the people are universally well affected to the con-
not to have some regard for impartiality, and we have not yet
st itution, I believe; but that they are more attached to the con-
established the custom of deciding by a hammer or a bell at_
stitution as it is now, than as it was at the commencement of the
ivhat particular hour the debate shall be closed, however it
war, I cannot allow. I cannot believe that I am one of those
INVASION—
[Oct. 31
1796.j
AUGMENTATION OF THE MILITIA.
2-34
2 3
k
‘, eighty thousand incorrigible jacobins'"" whom nothing can re..
ind of triumphant air, that he admitted the general support
concile to the monarchy of this country. So far from thinking
the
to the government. I heard distinctly what
their number to be so formidable, I believe that it will be difficult
honourable
le friend said, and I conceived him to express
to find one of that description. But if those be incorrigible
10',.jfiys
not that there was a general support of the mea-
jacobins who detest the measures of his majesty's ministers,
sures of his majesty's ministers throughout the country, but a
who are of opinion that their conduct has tarnished the glory
general indifference; whether this is the same thing, I leave
of the country, and that they have conducted pusillanimously a
Te the right honourable gentleman to decide. He must know
contest which they rashly and unjustly commenced —who think
that his only chance of support is from the indiarence and
that not only an inquiry into their conduct is indispensable
lethargy of -the country, and from their natural consequence,
but that a reform is absolutely necessary, in order to prevent
ignorance. Such kind of support, however, as this, can
the country from being cursed with such ministers as the pre-
hardl y, I should think, be as cordial and satisfactory to his
sent, if any such can ever curse the country — if these are the
feelings, as that which is the result of-judgment and the effect
incorrigible jacobins, I am glad to hear that they amount to,
of deliberation. When I consider the basis upon which the
eighty thousand. I wish they amounted to eight millions.
constitution stands, I confess that I consider this indifference •
The right honourable gentleman, who states that there is so
as an alarming symptom. I hope it does not exist to any
much necessity for going into the committee, does not disdain,
great extent; for sure I am, that the best security against an
however, to give us some . information. He says, that his ap-
invasion will consist, not in the indifference of the country, but
prehensions of the danger of an invasion are increased lately;
in its zeal, its firmness, and its unanimity. I understand the
and he said this in so emphatic a way, that I, for one, do not
right honourable gentleman to say that there is a real danger :
wish to press an opposition to the measure. If the minister
a miserable assertion this, by the way, for the House to pro-
really thinks that there is any danger of an invasion, I will
ceed upon without more substantial evidence; but, however,
not object to some increase of the militia force; but even in
the danger we are told is real. That such is the case, is mat-
that case, I will only suspend. my inquiry into the causes that
ter of serious concern. Of the ultimate issue of any attempt
have brought us into this danger. The right honourable gen-
at an invasion, I am as sanguine as his majesty's speech ex-
tleman, however, must be aware, that if an invasion is. likely
presses ; but I shall be more sanguine, in proportion as I see
to be attempted in England, One system of measures will be
the people less indifferent to the constitution, as the minister
necessary, which will not apply, if the invasion is likely to be
found it, not as lie has made it.
attempted in another part. Let the minister state this, in
With respect to the bill in question, in consequence of the
order that the means may be adapted to the exigence. Sup-
•
declaration of the right honourable gentleman, I shall not
pose, for example, that Jamaica was in danger of being invaded,
object to the recommitment of it; but unless it be, materially
you would hardly think it necessary to adopt any precaution
altered in the committee, I cannot consent to the passing of
it,
in Great Britain ; the same observation will apply to parts
because I do not think that it contains remedies adequate
nearer home. If any other part of the British territories
to the evil. The measure, as far as I have been able to learn,
is in danger, the measures calculated to repel that danger
o
es inuch alarm. I think it liable to objections, and I
f
ought to be applied to that part, which is conceived to be par-
eel that I should not do my duty if I did not state those ob-
jec
ticularly menaced. In observing upon the speech of my ho-
tions. The other bills appear to be defective in principle,
nourable friend, the right honourable gentleman said, with a
and cannot see any amendments that can reconcile me to
them. ne word more. The right honourable gentleman
says, that a great danger threatens us. I agree with him in
calling upon the people to resist an invasion on the part of
* " In England and Scotland, I compute that those of adult age, not
tr
declining in life, of tolerable leisure for such discussions, and of some means
ance. Resist it, I say, with all your might. Be unanimous
i
of information, more or less, and who are above menial dependance, mg,
n your exertions : be vigorous in your efforts : draw your
amount to about four hundred thousand. Of these four hundred thousallu
purses freely
: contribute your personal labours cheerfully.
political citizens, I look upon one-fifth, or about eighty thousand, to be pure.
but when I call upon the people to repel any attempt that
jacobins ; utterly incapable of amendment; objects of eternal vigilance'
and when they break out, of legal constraint." Barke's Letters on a Rel.
!ilay be made by France, I also call upon them not to be
al
cide Peace.
armed at the danger as not to adopt such measures after-
'''9-rds as may make the struggle beneficial to themselves. Let
236
AUGMENTATION OF THE MILITIA.
[Oct. 31,
1796.]
BUDGET TERMS OF THE LOAN
237
them not struggle against France, only to yield to the artifices
for it is too much to expect a relief from maxims of truth, if
of the present ministers. My advice to them is, Be vigilant
quell is to continue to be our system.
against the French; be vigilant also against the minister,o1 this
country, who has brought you into this situation et' danger.
Beware, that while you take measures to prevent your be-
coming a prey to the French, you do not become a prey to
the minister. I say be vigilant against domestic as well
BUDGET FOR 1797. — TERMS or THE
as foreign enemies ; but learn to distinguish who your do-
LOAN ADVANCES
TO THE EMPEROR WITHOUT THE CONSENT OF
mestic enemies are: you have been in prosperity, you now
PARLIA-•
NEXT.
feel adversity. Judge not by the assertions of those who have
robbed you of your rights; judge not by their comments;
December 7.
j udge not upon presumptive evidence ; but judge by your own
good sense. Reflect upon your condition; consider how you
TINS day Mr. Pitt produced his annual estimate of the public
were brought into it. The situation of your finances must
revenue and expenditure, with a demand of supplies, usually .
show you that it is paradoxical indeed, if you could have been
called the Budget. The sum total of the supply' required for the
brought into it without considerable errors (to use the softest
year 1797, digested under the heads of army, navy, miscellaneous
word) on the part of ministers, for I wish to speak tenderly
services, diminution of the national debt, ordnance, and deficiency
even of them in the present conjuncture. I hope you will
of taxes, amounted to 27,647,0001. The ways and means, pro-
j udge, not from the assertion of those who brought you into
posed by the chancellor of the excequer, for raising this supply,
the calamities you now feel; but that you will attend a little
amounted to 27,945,0001. New taxes were to be laid for raising
to the sentiments of those who opposed them in their mad
the interest of former debts to be liquidated, and sums now bor-
rowed or anticipated to the amount of
career. I hope you have not quite forgotten the calamities
2,t 10,0001. The interest
on the loan was calculated at 61. 158. per cent.
which the American war brought upon you, and which you
The new taxes for raising the interest on public expences, con-
would not have suffered to any thing like the extent you did,
tracted or to be contracted, being stated, Mr. Pitt said, that these
had you not given to ministers confidence which they did not
were diffused over so many articles, that they would operate with
deserve. But, it seems, we who oppose ministers are not a
equality, and yet not bear hard on the poor. By the production
tenth of the nation. Be it so; then ministers cannot com-
of the taxes it might be inferred, that the war had not materially
plain that we have been any material impediment to them.
:loved the sources of our prosperity, Having explained the
This is their artifice, and I think I understand it pretty clearly.
grounds of his estimates, as nearly as he could, both of the requi-
site supplies and the means of receiving them, he took notice of
It has been always the trick of governments whose proceedings
an expence of a particular nature that had occurred in the interval
are unjust and foolish, to say, " Our measures were wise, but
01 parliament : an aid granted to the emperor. A sum of about
they were thwarted in much of their efficacy by opposition."
1 , 2c0,cool., he believed, had been allotted to that prince. To have
I hope the public will not be the dupes of that artifice any
withheld this assistance would have been to sacrifice the best hope
longer. I hope they will discriminate between their domestic
of this country of bringing the present contest to a fortunate issue. It
enemies and their domestic friends, and that they will not suf-
Was his intention, if this conduct should meet their approbation, to
fer their affairs to remain in that paradoxical situation which
claim and solicit their confidence, in continuing the same system.
was some time ago stated, that ministers by their misconduct
He could not, for obvious reasons, propose any specific sum to be
g
may have brought the country into such a state of danger, al
ranted to his imperial majesty. But if they should think proper
to repose the same confidence in ministers, in granting such occa-
to require that the people should continue to give them confi-
sional aid as ,they might see to be necessary, it should, on their
dence, in order to prevent public ruin. Some may think, by
(part,
.
i bec exercised with the same caution. He therefore proposed
a strange perversion of reason, that the same causes which con-
a vote of three millions, chiefly with a view of enabling ministers to
ducted us to the brink of ruin, may ultimately lead us to
make advances to our allies, if we should be compelled to persevere
safety ; that folly and wickedness will in time have the same
In the war. After. Mr. Grey had impugned the chancellor of the
effect as wisdom and virtue; as it has been said that sonic ani-
echequoeirLstrstatements as erroneous and false, and his demands
as uns
mals can counteract their venom, by the repetition of .their
uitable to the situation, and unnecessary to the true interests
tins
own bite. We must look for some such fabulous remedy ill
our misfortunes, if we give ministers any further confidence;
238
BUDGET — TERMS Or THE LOAN
Me
1796.] ADVANCES TO THE EMPEROR, &C. 239
Mr. Fox rose: —Notwithstanding (he said) the abundance of
able gentleman mean ? Will he dare to lay claim to the cha-
evidence which has been brought forward by my honourable
racter of a fair and candid minister by barely telling us " what
friend, to prove the erroneous manner in which the chancellor
signifies what is the actual produce, my calculations are per-
of the exchequer has thought proper to treat the subject of
fectly accurate, and that is sufficient." It may, and, indeed,
this evening's consideration ; notwithstanding also the oppor-
i t has been said, that, in stating this deficiency, many of the
tunities which will be given of future discussion, I should not
toles have been taken only for part of the year, and some of
be satisfied that I had performed my duty as a member of par-
them have hot commenced. This, however, is not the case.
liament, were I to pass over this day without expressing some
I take them from the 5th of July 179s, to the 5 th of July
of those feelings which have been excited by hearing one of
179 6 ; but let them, if you please, be taken from the loth of
the falsest statements of finance that ever was brought for,-
October, and the conclusion will be found to be the same.
ward; calculated merely to delude the people of this country,
But the right honourable gentleman farther says, that a defi-
and accompanied with some political observations which are
ciency may actually take place during the years of war, but
a libel upon the constitution—observations that I would sooner
that on the return of peace, and by the assistance of additional
die than avow ; for if the principles conveyed by them are
regulations, ample compensation may be made. If this be
true, the end to which they lead must be the downfall of this
the mode of reasoning to be adopted, what is the use of this.
House and all its privileges, and the establishment of a dicta.
boasted paper of accounts ? It is a mere form, a shadow.
tor upon its ruins. I shall first, however, make some obser-
Let the deficiency be what it will, 8o,000l. or one million, let
vations on what has fallen from the right honourable gentle.
the usual accounts be made up to satisfy the words of the sta-
Juan, relative to-the subject of finance. It has ever been his
tute, and let us leave the real deficiency to be afterwards
boast, that in opening his budget, he has always come forward
provided for the best way we can, or by some peace regula-
with plain and candid statements of the full extent of the
tions. What is this, Sir, but flying from duty, and turning
charges to be made for the current service of the year. Upon
the business of finance into insult and mockery ? Such con-
more occasions than one, I allow this to be the case, and I
duct, too, comes with a peculiarly ill grace from that right
have not hesitated to bestow my praises upon such conduct;
honourable gentleman. His inconsistencies upon the present
but as to the business of this day, after the discussion that has
occasion it is impossible to enumerate. I remember well,
taken place between him and my honourable friend, is there
upon the subject of spirits, he was formerly of opinion, that
in the whole country so miserable a dupe, a being so corrupted
the duty would be too great ; but now it is impossible 'to raise
and so entirely devoted to every measure of ministers, as to
it sufficiently high ; and with the most astonishing facility of
say that a fair statement has this evening been laid before us?
argument, both war and peace are to tend equally to render
It is unnecessary for me to enter into minute details. ' I wish
it productive.
to call the attention of the committee to principles. By the
It was ably contended by my honourable friend, that the
consolidation act (27 G. III. c. 13. s. 72.) it is provided, that
navy debt was not dejiwto provided for; and what is the sort
a paper shall be laid upon the table of this House, with an
of answer we receive to this? " There is, or there may be,
account of the annual charges of the public debt, together
till:eel:ill:I:like a deficiency, but look to my calculations, - I
with an account of the produce of the duties imposed, or of
can make it all right in point of figures, and, as to three, four,
any addition that shall be made to the revenue for the purpose
or eight millions of deficiency, I can provide for that some
of defraying the increased charges. Now it appears, that, in
way or other." To make such excuses and observations as
fact, since the commencement of the war, the increased
indeed, cost little ; but are they satisfactory, are
charges amount to upwards of four millions, and that taking
they to be endured ? Is this to be called a candid statement?
the amount of taxes, after making allowance fox the Spanish
-f,,kre we to look for truth in the investigation of the state of our
armament, the stoppage of the distilleries, and other necesserY
finances, and to be merely entertained with the right honour-
admissions, there is a deficiency in the provision made for
able gentleman's conjectures, and imaginations ? My ho-
these charges, to the amount of 8o,000l., but this does not ap-
nourable friend, in statin g
actual deficiency of taxes to
the am
• ‘.
pear in the paper officially laid before the House. But We
amount or upwards ofb8o,000t. has taken the produce of
are told, that were it worth while (let this expression be 013;
the taxes up to July 17 9 6; and he has fairly and properly de-
m
served, " were it worth while,") all this could be explained
anded, that before the laying on of fresh burdens, this defi-
in a most satisfactory manner. What does the right honour'
ciency should be acknowledged and provided for, or at least
BUDGET— TERMS OF THE LOAN
[Dec.
240
796.] ADVANCES TO THE EMPEROR, &C: .24t
that in the mean time the House should not be insulted With
the production of a paper which, contrary to fact, supposes
Sources of the country was never brought forward by Mr. Peh.
ham, Lord Chatham, and other ministers, when placed in a
this to be provided for already. To understand what I now
Similar situation in the wars to which I have alluded.
urge, I only wish gentlemen to read that paper and judge for
I /1111:4
nor beg leave to make a comparative statement of what must
themselves. To come to a fair decision, I do not conceive it
be the peace establishment at the end of this war. To do
necessary to go back step by step, but to look merely at the
this, I take the average of the additional charges for the five
sums total. But here, indeed, the right honourable gentle-
last years, and add about 500,000/. more, which, altogether,
man might be inclined to interrupt me, and tell me as he has
will amount to about four millions. This day we are called
already told the House in his speech, that for the real pro-
upon to vote about 2,200,0001., yet enormous as this sum is, if
duce of taxes we are not to look to a time of war ; and yet
with the same breath we are informed, that this has been
the House will attend to the real statement of facts brought
so
glorious and so fortunate a war, that our commerce, in point of
forward by my honourable friend, they will find that above
one million more is still actually necessary.. If this be true,
exports and imports, exceeds any former period of peace, and
as it certainly is, what shall we
that the old taxes are more productive than ever. If this be true,
say of the CG fair statement"
of the right honourable gentleman ?
it is strange indeed, that while the war has not affected the old
Mr. Fox entered next into an examination of the terms of
taxes, it should diminish the amount of those which are newly
•
the loan. After which he came to the vote of credit, on
imposed. As to the exports and imports, my honourable
which he said, the minister had spoken out plainly and can-
friend has mentioned one curious particular, that one-fifth of
didly. He had said he had given to the emperor, without
the increased exports consists of the article of coffee, and in
the consent of parliament, twelve hundred thousand pounds,
order to show the committee the fallacy of any 'dependence
and that he is to continue to do it if he shall think it neces-
upon such sort of statements, I remember that formerly the
sary. He had not seen the date of this advance; but those
coffee exported in the custom-house hooks exceeded that which
who were members of the last parliament could not have
was imported ; now; as no one could be such a fool as to be-
forgotten, that for the last three months of that parliament, riot
lieve that more of that luxury was sent out of the country than
a week elapsed in which some question was not put to the
was brought into it, upon examining the cause of this apparent
minister, in which he was called upon to declare, whether he
inconsistency, the mystery was explained by finding that the
intended to grant any pecuniary assistance to the emperor.
coffee exported was estimated at a considerably increased
Did the minister mean to say he intended to give it to him,
value. The right honourable gentleman, however, imme-
but that he thought his own authority for that purpose was
diately informs us, that he reasons only comparatively from
sufficient; that it was superfluous to submit such a subject to
the present state of exports and imports. I observed nothing
Parliament; that he could issue the money of his own authority ?
of that comparative reasoning in his first speech. The right
Perhaps he did. He might borrow an example from his own
honourable gentleman told us, in something of a commanding
conduct to keep the measure in countenance. It
manner, that the exports of the present year would amount to
was of a piece
with his advice to his majesty to continue him as his minister
30 millions. The country, Sir, indeed stands in need of
agains t the declared opinion of the House of Commons in the
some comfort, and I should be sorry to diminish any of its sub,
3.1.1,e x
ali,10784. But now he had gone one step farther than to ad-
stantial comforts; but if this increase of exports and imports be a
vise the king to continue him as minister, in opposition to the ex-
source of consolation, as far as it goes, it has not been wanting
Press opinion of the House of Commons ; for lie had sliewh to
at any period, except during some part of the American war.
t
people of Great Britain that he was a better judge than the
During the war under the conduct of Sir Robert Walpole,
parliament of Great Britain, to whom their money, and how
and also during the seven years' war, this increase was equally.
m uch of it, should be given to any foreign prince. If (said
-observable. I am not a person inclined to erect theories, but
tr'r3orx; )iithtehsee ntliili
are the sentiments to be acted upon in this
rather to oppose them if not confirmed by some sort of expe-
minister is to be permitted to carry them into
rience ; but I have no doubt there are many persons who can
effect, I declare for myself, that the constitution of this ccun-
give satisfactory reasons why exports and imports should in-
t9' is not worth fighting for. I wish to know on what prin-
crease in the time of war, generally speaking, and why the
elple it is that thefighting takes this power upon himself, ra-
American war proved to be an exception. It may likewise be
the• than refer it to the Commons of Great Britain, to whom,
and
added, that such a proof of the flourishing state of the ye-
to whom only, it constitutionally belongs. If he directs_
vole vt.
242
BUDGET— TERMS OP THE LOAN--
[Dec, 7,
ADVANCES TO THE EMPEROR, C.C.
1796.]
24$
the application of the money of the people thus, upon foreign
a ry
concerns,
ni I should like to try the effect of this mode of,
affairs, without the consent of parliament, I see no reasoe
reasoning. Suppose, fur a moment, that we were in a state
why he should not claim the same power (as I dare say he
e • neutrality with regard to the French republic, and it was
will if he succeeds in this) over the whole of our domestic con-
proposed that we should lend money to the French, would
cerns. I am sure the reason he gives for the one, will just as
the minister say we should lend them money ? Certainly he
well apply to the other. He says that parliament could net
would not : and, yet, if good faith in pecuniary engagements
calculate so well as he could upon the necessity, and upon the
is to be measured by heroic qualities, there are none to whom
amount. That may be said as correctly of our domestic as of
we should be more ready to lend our money; for of their va-
foreign affairs. Until this instance occurred, the minister
lour they have given abundant proofs.
thought it decent to apply to parliament, and to give you an
Mr. Fox then proceeded to state the situation of the em-
estimate of what, you arc to provide for ; but now he tells you
peror and the French at this moment, in which he maintained
that he did not think it necessary to consult you, because you
that with all the successes of the Austrians in the latter part
are not judges of the extent of it. Did he consult you on the
of the present campaign, another could not be opened under
principle of it? ITe certainly did not. He suffered the.last
circumstances of more advantaeei to the emperor, than those .
parliament to be dissolved, he suffered you all to meet your
in which he had been placed at the commencement of the last.
constituents with an assurance, (I do not say his positive and
He here took notice of the recent successes of the French in
declared assurance, but by his silence he gave you an implied
Italy, and by way of answering the praises that were be-
assurance,) that no money was to be advanced to the emperor
stowed on the good qualities of the house of Austria, he in-
in the interval of the dissolution. On the 27th of September
stanced the cruelties that had been exercised on the unfortu-
you met. Did he give you any intimation of his having ad-
nate M. de la Fayette, which he said excited horror all over
vanced this money before you were called together? Did he
Europe.
.give you any intimation of it before this very night, when he
Mr. Fox then proceeded to observe, that the minister had
comes before you with his fresh burdens on the people? Not
that night omitted the brilliant comparison which he had often
a word ! For this conduct, I say, he ought to be impeached.
made between the English and the French finances. The
He has had it in his power to consult you upon this subject
French had been stated week after week, and month after
long ago, as it was his duty. He has neglected to do so, by
month, to be not on the verge but in the gulph of bankruptcy.
which he has manifested a determination to dispose of the mo-
He had omitted also to state that the French had, by be-
ney of the people of this country, without consulting their
coming the allies of the Dutch, partaken of the sluggishness
representatives. This is aggravated by his not calling parlia=
of the Hollanders. He did not know, he said, whether the
ment together sooner. If he had advanced the money before
French had passed the gulph of bankruptcy. He hoped they
you met, why did he not tell you so ? 'What reason can be
had, for while they were in it, they were most dreadful ene-
assigned for this? In the name of God, what can be said
mies to this country. But to return to the minister's calcu-
but that the minister thinks his judgment better than the
lation of events. He had, year after year, calculated upon
judgment of the representatives of the people of Great Britain,
the events of the war, and year after year the public had been
He has said much upon the time at which this money was-
misled by his calculations. At one time he was sure the navy
advanced. If he had any intention of advancing this money
debt would only be a million and a half; after that he calcu-
before the dissolution, why did he not state that intention to
lated the same debt at four millions, then at six or seven
the last parliament? Or, if he found out the necessity of iD
m illions, and new it was stated to be above eight millions.
since the dissolution, might he not have said so to the present
What security had the House and the public that the minister
parliament long ago? But he has done it for the purpose of
1`,.°Ill d not miscalculate in future, as he had already clone, in
establishing the principle, that ministers are better judges of
the course of the present war ? By his miscalculations he had
the manner in which the public money is to be applied, than
added to the debt of this country one hundred and fifty
the representatives of the people. The minister says, that We
lien s. By his miscalculations rivers of human blood had been
should feel the utmost confidence in lending our money to the
spade to flow all over the world. The minister now talked of
emperor, because we have seen in the emperor those heroic
eace. He hoped in God we should soon enjoy that blessing;
qualities which usually accompany good faith. Now, sup-
P
but as the minister was so fond of his own calculations, he
posing heroism to be a good criterion of good filial : in peOuj
wished he would some day or night sit down in his closet and:
A 2
BUDGET—TERMS OF THE LOAN
[Dee. 7
244
/ 796.]
ADVANCES TO THE EMPEROR, &C.
245
calculate what. a sum of human happiness he had destrove(l
Cron his heart wish it was at an end. This he was sure
by his false calculations already; what a waste of human life
general wish of the people of this country. It was
was - (r
he had occasioned, because he could not sooner discover that
the wish even of that House, else he was strangely deceived.
the French were " capable of maintaining the accustomed re_
This brought to his mind what had been xecently published
rations of peace and amity with other powers." He did not
by a gentleman whose talents he always admired, and for
wish to distress the minister with any unseasonable appli-
whom, notwithstanding every thing that had happened, he
cations, but he believed he should puzzle him a good deal
had still great esteem, he meant Mr. Burke; that gentleman
were he to ask, at what. period the French became more ca-
bad lately published it as his opinion, that the minority in
pable of maintaining the accustomed relations of peace and
rliament speak the sentiments of the people of England at
pa
amity with other powers than they were at the moment when
this hour, and that they have done so for some time past. On
we entered into this contest.
the subject of the war, Mr. Fox said, be had no doubt,
Here Mr. Fox took notice of the great difference between
that the minority spoke the sentiments of the people. On the
the ministers of tare Elector of Hanover and those of the King
subject of the war, at least, he would maintain that to be the
of Great Britain, with respect to the prudence of all powers
case; he believed it to have been so ever since the time of
making peace with the French republic. lie had. heard it
Robespierre; but he would defy any man to show that this
often said, that the spirit of the people of this country was
was not the wish of this country onl y, but also that it was
very great. lie believed it to be . so. He gloried in that
not the general wish of all Europe at this hour. He would
spirit. But if the system on which this war was carried on
go farther, and say, that in the opinion of' Europe . at large
was to be continued much longer, he had his doubts of the
nothing had impeded the arrival of general tranquillity for a
continuance of that spirit. A great people who saw hundreds
long time, but the opinion of the ministers of this country.
of thousands of their fellow subjects fall, their national debt,
All this arose from the miscalculation of the right honourable
increased above one hundred and fifty millions, their credit
gentleman. However, that very minister now talked of
sinking, the necessaries of life becoming, by their price, almost
peace; but let him consider on what terms we are likely
entirely out of the reach of the labouring class, and all this
to obtain it, and compare such terms with those which we
merel because one man, or a few men in the country made
y
might have obtained a great while ago, and then let him
false calculations, were not likely to preserve their old spirit.
endeavour to sum up the mischief which his false calculations
Such were the evils which the minister had already occasioned
have brought, not upon this country merely, but also on all
To these charges he hoped the right
• by his false calculations 1
Europe. Perhaps lie might think the Cape of Good Hope
honourable gentleman would have an opportunity of anewer-
an equivalent for all we had suffered. If he did, neither his
ing at the bar of the public. He knew that every man who
humanity nor his judgment were to be envied. He was afraid,
reasoned fairly would be deeply affected by these things.
he said, that there was no point to be stated in the resolutions
Every
who thought deliberately upon the subject would
of that night that brought in question the propriety of lend-
man
mourn over the hundreds of thousands of human beings who
ing money to the emperor, without the consent of parlia-
had lost their lives in this contest, because the minister of this
ment, and therefore he could not manifest by his vote his
country had miscalculated the power of the French; nd
o pinion upon that subject. However, when it should come
what, in comparison with the loss of so many human lives,
before the House, he should certainly meet it with his direct
was trifling, but which, in other respects, was mightily im-
negative, for it was a violent mid daring attack on the British
portant, was the accumulation of our burdens. The na-
constitution. It was essential for the House to come to a
tional debt of this country was now above four hundred mil-
vote upon the question, Whether the minister was to be per-
lions. He had not calculated exactly what portion of it
mitted to apply
for foreign alliances without the eon-
p money o
was owing to this war altogether; still less was he able to,
sent of parliament or not ? and that we should know whether
guess what part of it was accumulated at particular periods
we were in a free -country, or were mocked only with the
of the war; but he was now ready to declare, what he had
name of freedom. He should say no more now' upon this
often declared, and still oftener felt, that he thought this
si!bject; but would take a future opportunity of delivering
war unjust in its commencement, and impolitic in its prog•essr
his
sentiments with respect to the particular taxes.
and he believed there was not one man of sense in this
•
eountry, who had any wishes for its welfare, who did 11()t
The resolutions for raising the supplies were then put and carried.
It 3
2 46
BUDGET TERMS OF THE LOAN
[Dec. 8.
r796]
ADVANCES TO THE EMPEROR, SAC.
247
I stand to my constituents and to the country, to come for-
ward this clay and enter my solemn protest against a measure
December 8.
which I regard as an infringement of the rights of the people,
and of the privileges of this House : for I should look upon
The resolutions of the committee of ways and means were this
myself as a traitor to the public were I to vote one shilling,
day reported to the House. On the motion " That the said re.
or one Man, for the service of the crown, without the con-
solutions be now read a second time,"
sent of parliament. We have been in the practice of hearing
for some time past, very warm and elaborate eulogiums upon
Mr. Fox rose and said: — It is not my intention, ou
t he constitution of the country, notwithstanding all the
this evening, to enter into any detailed argument upon the re.
wounds which it has lately received; and I always thought,
solutions.' Future opportunities will occur of discussing the
that whatever differences of opinion might subsist upon some
particulars of which they consist; and it is my earnest wish
points, there were others on which we were all agreed.
that every member of the House may pay the most serious
Though we might differ in sentiment respecting the pre-
attention to the subject to which they belong, under a strong
ponderance of power in one branch of the constitution over
conviction, that the greatest exertions will be necessary to put
another, and in affixing precise limits to each, I thought and
the finances of the country in a proper situation. But this
believed that there was no man who would maintain that it
is not the point to which I propose, on the present evening,
was right and proper for the executive to usurp the legis-
particularly to call the attention of the House. I wish them
lative power ; or, that it was just and lawful for the crown
now to attend to the degraded situation in which the Com-
to supersede the office of parliament.
mons of Great Britain stand, in relation to the executive
But, let us consider the nature of the transaction before us.
government of the country. It will be easily perceived that
Had ministers, \\when parliament was not sitting, found them-
here I allude to the 1,2oo,000/. which has been granted to
selves called upon by an imperious sense of duty, dictated by
the emperor by ministers without the consent of parliament—
a combination of urgent and unforeseen circumstances, to
a grant which I contend to be directly contrary to positive
grant a certain pecuniary aid to the emperor; and had they
law, and a flagrant violation of the constitution of parlia-
taken the earliest opportunity upon the meeting of parliament,
ment. I certainly should have expected, since the right
to submit the whole of the business to its consideration, then
honourable gentleman did not think it worth his while to
would have been the time for the House to pass a-decision
apply to the House of Commons before lie advanced such a
upon their conduct, after a candid and impartial review of
sum to a foreign power, that when he informed them of the
the situation in which they were placed, and the motives by
circumstance, he would have accompanied it with some ex-
which it was fair to suppose them to have been actuated.
planation. But from the mode in which the money was given,
But the present case is wholly different. In the course of the
as well as from the speech of the minister on opening
last three months of the last parliament repeated applications
the budget, I evidently perceive that the whole affair has
were made to them respecting their intentions of granting or
been conducted, not for the convenience of ministers, or the
withholding pecuniary assistance to the emperor; and, from
advantage which they might imagine would result from it,
the silence which they persevered in preserving on the occa-.
S
(though, God knows, this would have been bad enough !) hut
ion, it was natural to infer that they would not grant such
as
that it has been done for the purpose of setting a precedent
sistance without the previous concurrence of parliament.
in the annals of the constitution, from which the public
lei fact, however, we find that a great part of the money
money is to be understood as lying at the disposal, not of the
given to his imperial majesty has been granted without that
representatives of the people, but of the ministers of the
concurrence, not during the parliamentary recess, but when
parl
crown. When I went home last night and reflected upon the
iament was actually sitting. If parliament had not been
various subjects which had passed under discussion,
must
I
and ministers had thought it prudent to grant peen-
mar.,
confess that I felt hurt at the idea of having appeared to Wile
y assistance to the emperor, I say it ought to have been
asse
my assent to, at least at not having positively dissented *on!,
mbled for the purpose of deliberating upon it; but when
resolutions which struck me as being so extremely unconsue
Parliament was sitting, in God's name, why was not proper
4
tutional. I considered myself as having been guilty 49!..;1
Pplication made to the House ? Was it because ministers
neglect of duty, and as called upon lw the relations in whica
were afraid that the House wanted confidence in them?
R 4
48 BUDGET TERMS OF THE LOAN — [Dec. g.
ADVANCES TO THE EMPEROR, &C.
1796.]
249
The whole course of their experience taught them the con_
issue for ;ranted, by supposing that an absolute is preferable
Crary. No: it was because the right honourable gentleman
to a limited monarchy; and that our free constitution would
thought himself better qualified to judge of the propriety of
be much better were it transformed into a despotism. . As to
the time, and the extent of such assistance, than the House
the danger to be apprehended from the publicity of the trans-
of Commons. I shall not dispute with him at present,
action, the pretence may be used upon other occasions as well
whether he was or not. The constitution says, he was not,
as upon this, till at last we come to the old exploded argu-
and under this authority he was bound to act. The consti.
ment, that the money of the pople ought to be vested with
tution says, that the public money is at the disposal, not of
t he king's ministers, and not with their own representatives.
the crown, but of parliament, and therefore he had no
In short, the right honourable gentleman tells you, he did
right to dispose of such a sum without the consent of pa•_
not think it worth while to acknowledge you at all in the
liament. I do not argue the point of his superior knowledge,
matter, because you were neither fit judges of the propriety
or his superior wisdom. I think it !hirer to stand upon audio.
of the quantum, nor of the period for granting the money.
city; and when the constitution speaks precisely, as it does
He takes care, however, that you shall finally be informed of
upon this point, neither he, nor any other man, has a right
it. But when? When it Comes to be paid.
to resist its will.
Let us see, also, from what fund this loan has been raised.
The question now is, not whether the constitution be good
One part of it has been raised upon a vote of credit, and
or bad, whether this be a wise or unwise arrangement; it
another part has been taken from the money voted for paying
has its advantages, and it, no doubt, may have its incon-
the extraordinaries of the year, and of course certain services
veniences; but it was his duty, as the minister of a free con-
of which parliament approved, and for which it made pro-
stitution, to adhere to the principles which it has laid clown,
vision, remain unpaid. In what situation, then, is the House
and to the rules which it has prescribed ; the first and most
of Commons placed? If they refuse to make good the debt,
important of which is, that the disposal of the public money
which I hope and trust they will, a part of the public service
is vested, not in the king, but in the people. When he
will remain in arrears. They are reduced, therefore, to this
violated this fundamental principle, and infringed this sacred
dilemma, either to discharge a debt, in contracting which
law, what else can I infer than a desire to establish a pre-
they were not acknowledged, and for which they are not re-
cedent against the constitution? The circumstances which
sponsible, or by refusing to discharge it, to leave services
have accompanied the transaction justify the inference which
which were sanctioned by their approbation unpaid. When
I draw. I find from the accounts upon the table, that a
we look back, Sir, one cannot help observing a peculiar train
considerable part of the sum was issued in November last.
of proceeding. For the first time the budget was opened this
How, then, does the matter stand ? Ministers finding them-
season before the extraordinaries of the army were voted. I
selves . called upon to lend pecuniary aid to the emperor during
know the reason that is given for it is, that the budget was
the recess, the measure, instead of being laid before the parlia-
opened uncommonly early in the season. I would remind
ment immediately upon its meeting, was studiously concealed
the House, however, that it was opened last year on the 7th
for the purpose of holding out, as a precedent in the history
of December as well as this year, (with this difference, that
of the country to be made known to Great Britain and to the
year parliament had not been so long convened ;) and
world, that the disposal of the public money is no longer ill
yet the extraordinaries of the army were voted previous to
the hands of the House of Commons, but that it is in the
the opening of the budget. This season the account was not
hands of the crown. We beard something like an apology
so much as produced till the day of the opening of the budget,
yesterday from the right honourable gentleman, which, w
the more strongly to mark the precedent, and that it may be
me, appeared as unsatisfactory as the conduct which it Ice',
said in future times, that in 1796 the minister of the country,
brought forward to justify is unconstitutional. It consisted 0/
after having, of his own accord, granted a loan to the
two parts : in the first place, that parliament was not 5°
9Mperor without the consent of parliament, did not deign
a
good a judge of the amount of the assistance to be granted
,
even to inform them of it upon their meeting; nay, that he
to the emperor as the right honourable gentleman; and,
Kept back the account of the extraordinarres of the year,
l
candly, that from the discussions to which the publicity 0'
est the House of Cormnons, by sanctioning or conniving at
;,.he transaction would lead, considerable mischief might Irate
Ole measure, might in the least have weakened the precedent.
taken place. With respect to the first; 'it takes the point
11.7hile I am upon this subject, I cannot refrain from re-
ADVANCES TO THE EMPEROR, &C.
250
BUDOET TERMS OF THE LOAN •T"'
[Dec. 8,
1 7961
25 E
marking also, that last night for the first time, we heard that
on the other hand, they patiently acquiesce in the most
the country was at war with Spain. Every gentleman who
gentlema
daring encroachments upon their rights, what figure will they
is in the habit of reading the papers, must
seen that
make in history, or how will they answer to their country for
it is now some months since it was openly declared, that
those liberties which they have wantonly sacrificed at • the
letters of marque had been issued, and that it had been an.,
shrine of unprincipled ambition ?
nounced by the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland; in short, it is
The right honourable gentleman last night expressed a
only in their capacity as members of parliament that they did
hope that parliament would continue their confidence; but
not know it till last night. I am aware that this may be de-
I trust he did not mean by this, that they will allow him to
fended upon the score of right, and that the prerogative of
go on disposing of the property- of the country without their
declaring war is vested in the crown. But how far it is gra.,
consent ; or if he does, I hope that in this, at least, they will
cious not to announce the exercise of that right to the House
disappoint his expectations. On the present evening I shall
of Commons, is another question, especially when it is re.
think it my duty to take the sense of the House upon every
recollected, that the ministers of the crown are so little
question, whether of supply or of ways and means; and if
scrupulous about entrenching upon the rights of the people,
I succeed, I shall move on an early day, that his majesty's
To return, however, to the subject of discussion. 'Were I
ministers, in granting a loan to the emperor without the con-
to put the question to any man at all acquainted with the con-
sent of parliament, have been guilty of a high crime and.
stitution of the country, When expences are to be incurred,
misdemeanor. If, however, the House shall not think proper
who are the best judges of the propriety of incurring them?
to agree with me on this evening, I shall defer that motion,
he would answer, the Commons of Great Britain. And
conceiving that it would not be attended with success. I
were I to add, When the propriety of incurring certain ex,
hope, however, that in this case the subject will be taken up
ponces is decided, who are the best judges of the extent to
out of doors; that the people will, in every part of time coun-
which they ought to be incurred? he would not hesitate
try, express their abhorrence of the doctrince last night de-
also to reply, the Commons of Great Britain. When we
livered by the right honourable gentleman, and that the House
give up these two strong holds, the constitution is lost. What,
of Commons will be obliged (I do not mean by force, but by
then, are we to think of the minister who wrests them out of
the voice of the country,) to assert those rights which they
our possession • Or what will be said by future historians of
have tamely and pusillanimously surrendered. For my own.
that parliament which tamely gave them up without one
part, Sir, I consider this as a more serious attack upon the
syllable of remonstrance, or one threat of defiance? It is
constitution of the country, than any that has been conveyed
true, that the House have so far relaxed from the rigorous
through the writings of Paine, or of any man whatever. The
exercise of their privilege as to give a vote of credit to the
nature of a libel is explained by its tendency, to bring into
minister that he may be enabled to meet unforeseen emer-
hatred and contempt the constitution. Were I, said Mr. Fox,
gencies. This, however, has always been to a limited extent;
upon a jury, deciding upon any composition containing the
but, in the present instance, the right honourable gentleman
speech of the right honourable gentleman last night, I would
thought that we were as little qualified to judge of the extent
not hesitate a moment to pronounce it a libel upon the con-
s
of the assistance to be given to the emperor as of the pro-
titution : for if the doctrines laid down in it are constitutional,
priety of giving it. He cannot surely pretend, .that by
ours is a most vile and detestable constitution. Even after
twisting any vote of the last parliament he was at liberty, to
all the attacks which have been made upon it, and all the
send pecuniary succours to the emperor. Notwithstanding
wounds which it has received, we would still have shed our
b
the obsequiousness of that parliament, notwithstanding all the
lood in its defence; but, if this new defalcation is to be added
wounds which it gave the constitution, and notwithstanding all
to what we were formerly robbed of, I would wish to know
the evils which it has entailed upon the country, I much
What there is left to interest our feelings, or to stimulate our
doubt whether it would have sanctioned a proposal for giving
exertions. This will, indeed, be an incalculable addition to
another loan to the emperor. But with regard to this par-
all the woes and calamities which the war has produced ; and
liament, I hope that it will vindicate its own, dignity and nil".
if, after what we have lost in money, in reputation, and in
portance at the outset, and chew the ministers of the countrY,
,
blood, we are also to submit to this Oppression, the House of
that if they arc advisers of the measures of the crown, th°
ucmmons is no longer to be considered as a branch of- the
House of Commons are the guardians of the public put•
distinguish ; and there will be little in our government to
wstinguish it from that of an absolute monarchy.
MR. FOX'S MOTION OT
[Dec. 14,
CENSURE ON MINISTERS.
252
253
loc h more competent to manage and direct the pecuniary
much of the British nation than a British House of Com-
Icon s., That an absolute government may be attended with
coy advantages which the government of a free state may
MR. FOX'S MOTION OF CENSURE ON MINIsTEns
EMPEROR, WITHOUT nit
not possess, I am ready to allow. But were I called upon
ADVANCING MONEY TO THE
to a rgue the question, (which I think is entirely foreign to
CONSENT OF PARLIAMENT.
the subject of this night's discussion,) laying aside all &e
December
blessings' of liberty, and laying aside all the energy of cha-
I4.
racter which it is so eminently calculated to produce, I think
I
I should have no difficulty hi proving, that, merely for the
N pursuance of the notice he had given,
sake of external relations and for the purpose of carrying on
Mr Fox rose and said : — Notwithstanding, Sir, the ita..
wars, even upon this narrow ground, setting out of view all
portance of the subject of this evening's discussion ; the ap.
the collateral advantages of freedom, there is enough, ccete•is
parent sense which the House entertains of its magnitude,
pa•ibu.c, to turn the scale in favour of a free constitution.
from the general attendance which is given; the conversation
This, however, is a question which I hope I am as little
which it has excited out of doors; and the decision which
called upon by the sentiments of the House as by the subject
has been this day passed by a respectable public body '" upon
now before us to discuss. I hope and trust that the prin-
the measure to which it refers; notwithstanding, I say, all
ciple of freedom is recognized as a principle of the con-
these considerations, I shall deliver the observations which
stitution, and that, as a constitutional principle, it is received
I mean to make, by way of preface to the Motion that I shall
as just, politic, and wise. I presume, however, it will be
have the honour to propose, without trespassing for any length
contended, that though the principle be established, it is
Not invariable; that though it generally obtains in the ma-
of time upon the patience of the House. And the reason is
nagement of the affairs of government, still it is liable to some
shortly this, that much of the argument has been anticipated
in the two debates to which the subject has already given
exceptions. I certainly inn not disposed to deny that it has
rise. Besides, upon the fundamental point, or the principle
been the practice of the House and of the constitution sonic -
which the question involves, I shall think it much more be-
times to deviate from the precise line of conduct which this
principle prescribes.
coming in me as a British subject, and as a member of par-
liament, to assert rather than to argue, studious not to weaken
It may be argued, and I do not contravene the fact, that,
the constitution, by stating as doubtful what it has recog-
from the nature of our continental connections, and at a
nized as one of its leading features. The grand principle to
period when our arms are employed in foreign service, it is
impossible precisely to state by estimate the amount of the
which I refer, Sir, is, that this is a limited arid not an absolute
e
monarchy, and that it is the peculiar privilege of the House of
xpellee. of any separate measure, or of any particular line of
o
Commons, not only, to levy taxes and impose burdens upon
peration. And hence it may be truly inferred, that ex-
tra
the people, but to judge of the whole expellees of the state;
orclinaries have become necessary to be voted, to cover
the
as well of the mode in which they ought to be applied, as of
expences exceeding the estimates which parliament has
vot
the manner in which they ought to be raised. I trust that
ed; and that even these being found insufficient to provide
for i
this general principle is so universally acknowledged, that
ncidental emergencies, it has been usual to pass a vote
of
I shall not be called upon to come forward in its defence.
credit to the ITiinister, to be applied according to his
disc
I trust that in these times, and in this House, I shall not
retion, to such unforeseen conjunctures as may arise.
i
hear a doctrine, which was received at an earlier period, and
n either of the cases, however, it cannot be said, that the
rn,
which I have since seen revived in writings lately published
Pney is either levied or applied wholly without the consent
4
that I shall not, I say, hear it contended, that the disposal of
of since, in the one case it voted the service and
°lily
the public money is a secret which ought not to be entrusted
mistook the estimate, and in the other, it voted the
to a public assembly, but that one or a few individuals are.
money, confiding in ministers for the wisdom of the applica-
(ma A •
,,on
tut i t must be remembered, that these are exceptions
"
the princHe not the act of the con s
fl're
titution that they
t
-
The Common Hall of the City of London.
cessary evils which can never be extended beyond the
MR, PDX'S MOTION Or
[Dee.
1796.]
CENSURE ON MINISTERS.
254
ISS
necessity in which they originate, without some degree ei
and was contrary to the practice, which had been wisely
criminality in the persons who multiply them. It is not ver
established since the Revolution, of' appropriating the sup-
y
pleasant to quote a passage from the writings of an author
- to the services for which they had been voted. We see,
plies
even in his absence, but much less when he Is present, par-
therefore, that this proceeding did not pass without much
ticularly when he has not an opportunity of explaining his
difficulty and debate, and that soon after, another, and so far
own sentiments. My respect for the author, in the present
,rs it is limited, a better mode was adopted, which, though it
instance, however, is such, and the sentiments- which he has
ave the ministers credit for the manner of disposing of the
g
expressed in the work to which I refer, seem to me to be
oney voted, confined that credit to a precise and special
so forcible and just, that I feel I should be doing injustice
This deviation, in times of war, from the usual form
to my argument were I to refrain from quoting them. Most
of parliament, can only be justified from the impossibility
gentlemen, I believe, will have gone before me in supposing
of stating, in an estimate, those demands which the unforeseen
that I refer to a work, intitled, " Precedents of the House
exigencies of extensive and uncertain operations may require;
of Commons:" by a very respectable gentleman, Mr. Hat-
it Is therefore incumbent on the House of Commons, not
sell, one of the clerks of this House. The following is the
only to make this supply of credit as small as possible, but
passage to which I wish to call the attention of the House:
in a subsequent session to inquire into the particular ex-
" Notwithstanding every precaution which can be taken
penditure of the sum granted, and to be assured that it is
to confine the expellees of the different services within those
strictly applied to those purposes for which it was intended,
sums, which, after consideration of the estimate laid before
and not squandered loosely, improvidently, wantonly, or,
them; appear to the House of Commons to be fully sufficient,
perhaps, corruptly."
•
we learn from fatal experience, that this has been found to
I am happy to observe, also, that since this passage was
be impossible. In all the different services, the navy, the
quoted last year in another House (by the Marquis of Lens-
army, and the ordnance, there has always been an exceeding,
down) the book has undergone a new edition, and that the
or debt contracted upon each, which has been brought before
author, in revising and republishing his valuable work, has
parliament ie a subsequent session, under the title of navy
seen no reason to alter his opinion upon the constitutional
debt, or of extraordinaries incurred and not provided for.
danger of granting large votes of credit, and of voting great
Formerly these exceedings were confined within some limits,
sums under the head of extraordinaries, which might have
as appears from the accounts entered in the journals during
been previously provided for by parliament.
the war of the succession, and even in the war which ter-.
Having laid down this principle, then, and admitted the
minated in
exception, I hope I shall not be accused of pursuing an ar-
I 7 4 8. In what is commonly called the German
war, in 1758, these sums first became very large: but in the
gument which would operate as arm objection to all extraor-
d
late war carried on in America, they exceeded all bounds.
inaries. All I contend is this; that they are an evil, but
There was a deo-ree of' negligence, or extravagance, or both,
an evil which may sometimes be unavoidable, or in other
W
b
in those who had the conduct of this department, which
ords, that they are a mischievous exception to the principle
rendered all the votes of the House of Commons, or bills for
of the constitution. The measure now before time House
i
appropriating the supplies, ridiculous and nugatory. The
uvolves two questions : in the first place, Whether it was
sums demanded upon the head of extraordinaries of' the
an ex-pence fit to be incurred ? and, secondly, Ought it to
have
army, incurred, and not provided for during this period,
been incurred in the mode in which it actually has been
incurred, or to have been previously submitted to the decision
Egli not very much short of the whole sums voted by parlia-
of p
ment, upon estimate, for that service."
arliament? On the first question, I shall not enter into
al
Sir, Mr. Hatsell afterwards proceeds to speak of the trans-
ly discussion. And, after I have guarded the House against
Consi
actions of the year 1734: " The general and unlimited power
dering it as my opinion, I shall suppose on this day,
that
which was given by the resolution of time 3d of April, 1734i
it was an expellee proper to be incurred. With this
ica
avth
to the ministers to apply, out of the aids of the year, such:
ea:, then, let it be taken for granted, for the sake of ar-
u
sums as the exigency of public affairs miffht require, w as it,
ment, that it was a wise arid prudent measure to remit
ezo
b
measure entirely subversive of those rules and restrictive
o,000t. to the emperor ; yet we have still this important
9h
forms of parliament, which the House of , Commons Itave
estion to decide — Ought the sum to have been issue.
imposed upon themselves in the mode of granting supplies,
manner in which it was issued ? In the first place,-
1796.3
CENSURE ON MINISTERS.
256
MR. FOX'S MOTION OF
[Dec.
257
,Ilints,0leho,ei.sr,etirliie,. ctattillilliell that lie called his steward, and gave him a sum of
it was not an expence respecting the extent of which we COQ
have been uncertain. Had the remittances been numerouq,
for the purpose of paying the servants their wages
,Ythey became due, and of paying the taxes when they
and the services for which they were destined been of a very
complicated nature, it might have been difficult to ascertain
The steward, we shall suppose, might say,
dthfins very proper, but on, an establishment so
with precision the amoun t of the sum to be granted, but there
extensive as yours, many expenses in repairs, charities, &c.
could be no difficulty in determining the sum which it was
may occur for which I am not provided." Well, in con-
proper for this country to grant either to the emperor or the
sequence of this representation the gentleman gives him 2001.
Prince of Conde. I would beg to be informed why, after
pr 3 001. more. But what would he think of his steward, if,
the country had been in the practice, year after year, of
instead of keeping this 2001. or 3001. in reserve for unforseen
maintaining emigrant corps, when it was in meditation to
exigencies, he applied the sum to the payment of debts which
send supplies to the army of the Prince of Conde, the in,
he had formerly contracted, and of which he kept his master
tention was not communicated to parliament? Or why a
ignorant? Not to use any coarser language, he would cer-
precise estimate, which might have been very easily formed
tainly consider him as a steward who was no longer worthy
of that head of expence, was not submitted to the House
to be trusted. The analogy holds good in the conduct of
along with the other estimates for the year? In the present
the right honourable gentleman in applying the vote of credit
case, to rank the expence in the class of extraordinaries,
for defraying expences formerly incurred, and which he kept
was in good truth to go the length of rendering extraor-
secret from parliament.
dinaries absurd and ridiculous, and all the laws of appropria-
This, Sir, is something, but it is not all. There were some
tion nugatory and void. To apply the vote of credit to
suspicious circumstances in the time and manner in which the
defraying this expence, was as strange and unconstitutional.
vote of credit was applied for. My honourable friend, (Mr.
When gentlemen are informed, that so early as December
Grey,) who apprehended something incorrect, I remember
1795, two hundred thousand pounds were issued to supply
well, was accused of being extremely suspicious, though his
the army of the Prince of Conde, upon what vote of credit
suspicions were certainly very fist from coining near to the
will they naturally suppose the money to have been raised?
reality, if that could be called suspicion, which formerly, in
It must be considered as an unforeseen expellee, else it ought
parliamentary language, would have been termed a watchful
not to have been placed to the account of the vote of credit.
Jealousy of the conduct of administration. It was matter of
From what vote of credit, then, is it natural to suppose that
surprise to my honourable friend, as well as to myself; that
an unforeseen expence occurring in December 1795, should
application should be made for a vote of credit at so early a
be defrayed? One would certainly suppose from the vote of
period of the year; and admitting that it could be applied re-
credit for 17 9 5. No such thing. It was defrayed from the
trospectively, it was certainly not too much to expect that in
vote of credit for 1796. 'What, then, was the conduct of the
the disposition paper which was produced in April, some ac-
right honourable gentleman? In February 1796, he came
coun
]caye been given of the application of a sum which
down to the House, and said, " After all the taxes which I
had actually been employed to cover an expellee incurred in
hare levied, and all the burdens which I have imposed upon
the preceding year. No such account, however, was given
the country, and grievously the people will, no doubt, feel
s Of
ni that paper. Now, Sir, I ask, what was this but a direct
them, they arc not sufficient to answer all the exigencie
fi.aud upon the public ? Supposing, for argument's sake, that
the state, and I must have credit for two millions and a half
there wits a difference between the money sent to the army of
more to meet the occurrences of unforeseen services ;" not,
Prince of Conde and the sums sent to the emperor; though
you will observe, to supply the deficiencies of former esti--
there certainly was no material difference, for it signified little
mates, but to be applied expressly for the purpose of answere
whether we supplied an army which the House of Austria
ing unexpected, but possible demands. But what does the
M ust o
right honourable gentleman do? The first use lie snakes
therwise have paid and supported, or whether we sent
/nalley to the House of Austria to enable it to pay and sup-
the vote of credit is to pay a remittance of 200,0001. to thcie
1,1ort that army. I wish gentlemen to attend a little to the
Prince of Conde's army in December 1796, and of whi
debates of the fast session, and to the subjects of public clis-
parliament knew nothing. By way of illustration, I shall
ussion• They will recollect that there were several circum-
suppose that a gentleman was leaving his house in town t°0
`ances connected with the loan which attracted attention,
go to the country, or his house in the country to come
vox- vx.
z 5 8
M. rox's MOTION OF
[Dec. „
j96.j
CENSURE ON I'dINISTERS.
259
There is one circumstance which it is material to recollect:
to meet. One would have thought, that now their own time
the terms upon which it was raised gave occasion to a good
was come, that they would have condescended so far as to
deal of discussion, and they were justified upon several grounds,
communicate the secret. But no 'such communication is made !
one of which was, that we were not to consider it merely as a
Now, Sir, I ask how ministers, when parliament was sitting,
loan ; that a quantity of navy debt was to be funded, and that
could presume, clandestinely, to send money to the emperor
there might be wanted a loan of three millions for the emperor.
without either informing-or consulting the House of Commons
Frcm this I certainly inferred, -that if a loan was to be given
upon the subject ? I ask, if there be any possibility of answer-
to his imperial majesty, the House of Commons would be
ing the question to the satisfaction of the House of Commons
consulted, both respecting its propriety and extent ; that
of Great Britain, if they are not resolved tamely and pusillani-
nisters never would have taken it upon them to grant peen.
mously to surrender the most sacred and important privilege
Mary succours to any foreign power without the consent of
that has been conferred upon them by the constitution ? I
parliament; that those who were averse to the measure would
trust that I shall not hear the argument which was employed
have an opportunity of publicly opposing it; and if it was
in a former debate restated on this evening ; that secrecy was
carried, that at least it would not be adopted till it had as-
observed for the purpose of restoring the credit of the country.
sumed a legal and constitutional shape. I heard it also ru-
This is too flimsy an argument to impose upon even the most
moured, upon what I considered to be very good authority at
superficial thinker. To what motive, then, is the conduct of
the time, that there were sonic people connected with the bank
ministers to be ascribed ? I can account for it upon only one
who had stated the danger of sending so much specie out of
of two grounds. The first and most natural, I confess, appears
the kingdom ; and that there were many gentlemen who were
to be, that it was their intention to take advantage of the uni-
acquainted with the financial state of the country who would
versal satisfaction which was occasioned throughout the coun-
have opposed such a step, not upon political grounds, but
try by the successes of the imperial arms, to establish a pre-
upon their knowledge of the state of public credit. In the
cedent against the constitution, by disposing of a sum of money
course of the session questions were put to the right honour-
in an unconstitutional mode upon a favourite object, and thus
able gentleman several times upon the subject. The answers
to set an example to future ministers to employ the public
were not very decisive, but they led me to conclude, that if
money as their judgments may direct, or their caprices dictate,
the measure was in contemplation, the House of Commons
without consulting the wisdom or acknowledging the authority
would certainly be consulted upon it, before it was finally
of parliament. The only other ground on which they can at-•
adopted. Parliament was not consulted, and the period ar-
tempt to justify their conduct is, that the ministers of the king
rives when we find that money actually was sent to Germany.
are better judges than the House of Commons of the propriety,
And here, Sir, for the sake of argument, I shall also admit
the extent, and the period for executing any public measure.
that it was expedient, that it was wise, that it was necessary
The right honourable gentleman knew for certain whether it
to send money to the emperor, that it was necessary fore*
was proper or improper to grant pecuniary succours to the
salvation of Germany, and that the salvation of Germanai0
emperor ; he knew the specific sum which it was proper to
necessary to that of Great Britain. This necessity, then,
send, and the precise period for remitt i no• it
remitting • but, had the
•
arose during the recess, and if they considered it as so impe-
House of Commons been consulted, they would not have been
riously urgent as not to admit of the delay of calling parlia-
Proper judges ; they would have been for sending either too
ment before the money was sent, why did they not assemble
much or too little ; -for sending either too hastily or too tardily.
parliament to inform the public of that had been done,
Such a defence, Sir, instead of extenuating, is an aggravation of
arid to petition for a bill of indemnity
Perhaps flleY,
the offence. I ask, if a British House of Commons will bear to
will say, that that might be done as well at the usual period el
be told by a minister, not only that he is a better judge than they
the meeting of parliament ; that after the money was granted,
are of the prerogatives of the crown, which he did with so
it was unnecessary to assemble them for the purpose of in'.
much arroaance‘, in 178 4, but that he is the best judge also
forming therm of a measure already adopted; that when
0f the privileges of the people ? If the case was difficult, why
sent the first remittance they had no idea of sending a s,
aid he not come to the House of Commons for instruction?
and that when the second was sent, they did not conceiv e t;r3t,:
01
If the case was delicate, why did he not depend upon the wis-
a third would be necessary; and so on. Well: the 2 7th
d"I of the House of Commons for direction? If Germany
September arrived, when the king bad summonedparliamea
was to be saved by the money of the people of Great Britain,
s2
260
ant. FOX'S :MOTION OF
[Dec. 54.
1796.]
CENSURE ON :MINISTERS.
265
why were not the House of Commons the saviours? I ask
tendon to send money to the emperor, why he concealed it?
him, whether he believes that the Ilouse of Commons would
When he found that it would be necessary to call upon the
have sanctioned a loan to the emperor, or that they would not?
country .for pecuniary aid to the House of Austria, why did
If he thought that they would, why did he not apply to them?
be not inform the public of the additional burden which they
If he conceived that they would not, why did he dare, not
would be called upon to sustain ? When lie was compelled
only to usurp their authority, but to trample upon their privi.
to have recourse to the House of Commons for support, why
leges ; to dispose of the money of the nation, not only without
did he not ask that support in a constitutional manner ? Sup-
the consent, but in direct contradiction to the will of parlia.
posing even for a moment, that the urgency of the crisis was
ment ? It is pretty well known that I have no great opinion of
such as to render it necessary to draw the; bills during the re-
the public spirit of the last parliament ; and I do believe, that
cess, why did he not submit the matter to the House of Com-
after what they did to extend the influence of the crown, and
MOUS as soon as they were assembled ?
to infringe upon the liberties of the people ; after their perse-
Without entering at all into the question of the propriety
vering support of a war, as disastrous in its consequences as it
of granting these succours, a discussion which I wish on this
was unjust in its origin ; after their blind and obstinate con-
evening entirely to avoid, I cannot help making an observa-
fidence in ministers, by whom they were deceived and misled,
tion upon the relation in which we stand to the House of •
and after the grievous and intolerable burdens which they im-
Austria in pecuniary matters. In 179 5., this country guaran-
posed upon the people; I do believe, I say, that the influence
teed a loan to the emperor of four millions and a half. There
of the crown would have carried even this question. I am
were many who doubted at the time the policy of the mea-
persuaded, however, it would have been attended with more
sure; and I recollect well that a noble lord urged in behalf
than ordinary difficulty, and that parliament would at least
of the good faith of his imperial majesty, that he had made
have hesitated before they gave their assent.
good his first payment of the interest due upon the loan. I
But, will the right honourable gentleman pretend to say,
did not consider it as a very powerful argument at the time-,
that he was not aware during last parliament, that there would
because I knew that the money for the first payment of the
be any necessity for the measure? I ask him, when he con-
interest was deducted from the capital ; and I shall be still
siders the debt as having been contracted, whether, when the
less surprized now to hear of Ins imperial majesty's punctuality
bills were drawn, or when the money was issued ? If he con-
in paying the interest upon that loan after we have remitted
siders the debt as contracted when the money was issued, the
him 1,200,0001. which is three or four times more than any
emperor might have received it all, excepting about 77,0001.
Suns of interest which he has to pay to this country. I do not
as soon, had parliament been consulted, as he did when the
state this as a reason why parliament should withhold suc-
money was sent without their concurrence. But, upon the
cours from the emperor, but I state it as an additional reason
other supposition, which is the more favourable of the two for
why ministers should be cautious of granting these succours
the right honourable gentleman, that the debt was contracted
without the sanction of parliament.
when the bills were drawn, and that it was necessary that the
I have been often accused, Sir, of representing the consti-
bills should be drawn during the recess ; was I, says the right
tution as in dan ger. Of these alarms I am willing to take all
honourable gentleman, to take the sense of parliament upon
the shame, and to the crime, if it be any, I readily plead
the payment of a bill after permitting it to be drawn ?
guilty. The oftener I think upon the subject, and the
answer, that he must still take the sense of parliament, when
more experience I have of the conduct of ministers, the more
the question comes to be put upon the payment of the extrao r
I am convinced that my alarms are just, and my apprehen;.
-dinaries of the army ; and that it is then in the power of the
sions well founded. Upon some measures which I have con-
House of Commons, if not to stop the payment of that speci-
ceived to be dangerous to the constitution, I allow that there
fic sum to the Emperor of Germany, to refuse to cover th..e
was room for difference of opinion. The question now before
deficiency which it has occasioned •in the estimated service.
the House, however, is not, whether the attack is greater
One of the bills I find to have been dated on the 20th of MaYi
or less than those which have been formerly directed against
and, if I recollect right, the House was prorogued on the 19th'
the constitution. It is so bold and so daring, and so entirely
Sub
Now, I ask, Did he not know, on the 59th, that this bill vies
versive of the letter of the constitution, that if it meet the
sa
to be drawn on the 2ctli ? And if he did, which it was im-
nction of parliament, the question will be, not how far the
con
possible but he must have done, I ask, when it was his in-
stitution is injured, but whether or not we have any consti-
s 3
162
MR. FOX'S MOTION, &C.
[Dec. 14
RUPTURE OF THE NEGOCIATION, &C.
263
17961
tution at all? It is upon these grounds that I am induced to
constitution can long survive such en attack, if the authors of
bring forward the motion which I am about to propose.
it are suffered to pass without any mark of reprehension.
When it has been thought necessary to add new and extra.
gr. Fox concluded with moving, " That his majesty's mi-
ordinary powers to the crown, to accumulate new descrip.
nisters, having authorized and directed, at different times,
tions of treason, to inflict cruel, barbarous, and unheard-of
without the consent, and during the sitting of parliament, the
punishments; in fact, to institute something approaching to a
issue of various sums of money for the service of his imperial
military government, whether these innovations have been
majesty, and also for the service of the army under the Prince
necessary or not, I think they are of such a magnitude as to
of Conde, have acted contrary to their duty, and to the trust
have justified some degree of alarm. But if, in addition to all
reposed in them, and have thereby violated the constitutional
these new and extraordinary circumstances, there is to be
privileges of -this House."
added a direct attack upon the privileges of this House, and
the Sum of 1,2oo,oco/. is to be disposed of by the minister,
Mr. Fox's motion was seconded by Mr. Alderman Combe, and
not only in augmentation of expellees approved of by parlia,
supported by Mr. Sheridan, Sir William Pulteney, and Mr. Wil-
meat, but without obtaining the consent of, or so much as
liam Smith. Mr. Pitt, in a speech of great length, endeavoured
acknowledging, parliament, I should be glad to know where
to slim, from parliamentary history, that the measure was not un-.
precedented nor unconstitutional. Mr. Bragge defended the con-
there is the smallest safeguard of the constitution left, or what
duct of ministers, and moved as an amendment, " The measure
seciirity we can have against the future encroachments, either.
of advancing the several sums of money, which appear, from the
of a minister, or of a prince, who may be disposed to make
accounts presented to the House in this session of parliament, to
them ? I am sure the right honourable gentleman cannot twist
have been issued for the service of the emperor, though not to be
any provision in the vote of credit bill, so as to afford him
drawn into precedent, but upon occasions of special necessity, was,
the smallest pretence for making the application of it which
under the peculiar circumstances of the case, a justifiable and pro-
he has clone, and the expence can with less propriety be MUG-
per exercise of the discretion vested in his majesty's ministers by
duced among the extraordinaries of the army, since it might
the vote of credit, and calculated to produce consequences which
have proved highly advantageous to the common cause, and to
have been previously voted upon estimate. In both cases,
the general interests of Europe." After a long debate, the House
whether the money has been paid from the vote of credit, or
divided on Mr. Fox's motion :
under .the head of army extraordinaries, the right honourable
Tellers.
Tellers.
gentleman has been equally culpable: in the one case, be has
Mr. Aid. Combo
Lord Carrington} 0
been guilty of a breach of trust, and in both he has acted di-
YEAS Mr. Wm. Smith
205.
NORS Mr. Steele
rectly contrary to the principles of the constitution. I move,
Mr. Fox's motion was thus negatived ; after which, Mr. Bragge's
Sir, that the act founded on the vote of credit may be read.
amendment was put and carried.
[The act being read, Mr. Fox continued.] Some persons
think, that in order to repair the breach of the constitution, a
bill of indemnity ought to be passed : for my own part, I am
not of such an opinion. I think there is no alleviating circum-
stance in any part of the conduct of ministers, to entitle them
to such indulgence. When the subject was under discussion
KI NG'S MESSAGE RESPECTING THE RUPTURE OF THE NE-
on a former evening, the right honourable gentleman, instead
GOCIATION FOR PEACE WITH FRANCE.
of soliciting pardon, came forward with a vindication of his
conduct, and challenged the House if they dared to find fault
December 3o.
with it. I think, therefore, that an act of indemnity would be
improper, because the circumstances have been even a greater
ON the 26th of December, Mr. Secretary Dundas presented a
outrage upon the constitution (if a greater be possible) than,
message from his majesty, acquainting the House with the
rupture
the principle itself. I cannot conceive any more proper mode
of the negociation for peace with France. On the follow-
ing day, Mr. Pitt, -after entering into an elaborate defence of the
of acting, than for the House to express a plain intelligible
c911d. act of his majesty's ministers during the progress of the nego-
opinion upon the measure. I know hot what is their opinion/
Ciotti:in, moved, " That an humble address be presented to his ma-
nor do I know the opinion of the public upon it; but this I do
3"tY, to return his majesty the thanks' of this House for his most
know, that he must be sanguine indeed who can hope that the
gracious message; and for having been pleased to lay before the
S 4
264
RUPTURE OF THE NEGOCIATION
[DOC; 30
796.3
FOR. PEACE WITH FRANCE.
265
House the papers which have been exchanged in the course of the
would have been enforced by superior powers. I need not
'late discussion, and the account transmitted to his majesty of its
state, that the business before us is of the utmost importance,
final result : to assure his majesty, that we cannot but deeply
that the occasion is such, as, though we may not think it neces-
participate in the concern which his majesty (from his constant
regard to the interests of his subjects) naturally feels in the dis.
sary to contemplate it with despair, we cannot survey but with
appointment of his earnest endeavours to effect the restoration of
the most serious considerations, and with feelings of the deepest
peace, and in the abrupt determination, on the part of the French
regret.
•
After a war of four years, which is stated to have
government, of the negociation in which his majesty was engaged,
been attended with many occurrences highly honourable and
but that it affords us the greatest consolation, and the utmost in.
advantageous to the British arms, and to have been aceom-
citement to our zeal and perseverance, to observe the abundant
pal
lied with no disgrace, after the immense expenditure in-
proofs that his majesty's conduct has been guided by a sincere de.
cuffed in the prosecution &hostilities, an expenditure, which
sire to effect the restoration of general peace, and to provide for
undoubtedly has been greatly aggravated by the extravagance
the permanent interests of his kingdoms, and for the general secu-
of those concerned in superintending the plan of operations,
rity of Europe ;• while his enemies have advanced pretensions, at
after an addition of no less than two hundred millions to the
once inconsistent with those objects, unsupported even on the
grounds on which they were professed to rest, and repugnant both
national debt, and of nine millions to the permanent taxes of
to the system established by repeated treaties, and to the principles
the country ; after an enormous effusion of human blood ; af- •
and practice which have hitherto regulated the intercourse of in-
ter an incalculable addition to the sum of human wretched-
dependant nations : — that, in this situation, persuaded that the
ness, so far are we from having gained any point or any
present continuance of the calamities of war can he imputed only
object for which we set out in the war, so fin- are we from
to the unjust and exorbitant views of his majesty's enemies, and
having achieved any advantage, that the minister has this
looking forward, with anxiety, to the moment when they may be
night come forward in a most elaborate speech, and has en-
disposed to act on different principles, we feel it incumbent on us
deavoured to prove, that the only effect has been, that the
to afford his majesty the most firm and zealous support in such
measures as may be most likely to bring this great contest to a safe
enemy have become more unreasonable than ever in their pre-
and honourable issue ; and we place the fullest reliance, under the
tensions, and that all hopes of peace are removed to a still
-protection of Providence, on his majesty's vigilant concern for the
greater distance. 'We are now not allowed to hope for the
interests of his subjects, on the tried valour of his forces by sea and
restoration of peace, unless some change is wrought by the
land, and on the zeal, public spirit, and resources of these king-
events of war. And at what period is this prospect brought
doms, which can never be called forth under circumstances more
forward ? After a war of four years, which so far from having
important to their permanent welfare, and to the general security
produced any favourable change in the disposition of the
and interests of Europe."— Mr. Erskine commenced a most elo-
enemy, if we may trust to the representations of the right ho-.
quent reply to the chancellor of the exchequer, but was suddenly
pourable gentleman, has only served to increase the insolence,
obliged to sit down, in consequence of indispositon. Upon this
of their style, and the exhorbitance of their pretensions.
The same necessity is still stated to exist for the continuance
Mr. Fox rose and said :— Sorry, indeed, am I on account
of the war.
of my honourable and learned friend, whose indisposition has
It would, Sir, have been some consolation, if after the right
suddenly compelled him to sit down ; sorry for the sake of the
honourable gentleman had stated at such length, and with
I-louse, whose information, from the train of argument which
such an elaborate display of eloquence, the exorbitant preten-
he had adopted, has been thus unpleasantly interrupted; and
sions of the enemy, he had suggested some means of reducing
sorry for the cause of peace and Great Britain, which mini-
them. But, good God, how striking is the contrast ! In this
sters, by their imprudent counsels and infatuated policy, seem
speech of three hours, I find only one solitary sentence which
determined to push to the last verge of ruin, that I am thus
is at all calculated to afford any hope of a satisfactory issue to
unexpectedly called upon to address the House on the present
the present unfortunate contest. And of what materials does
occasion. I feel it, however, incumbent upon me to step for'
"le remainder of the speech consist? It is merely a revival of
ward, knowing that my opinion on the subject entirely coin-
°Pinions by which we have been led on from year to year,
cides with that of my honourable and learned friend who hag
j
,
an,r_d by which we have found ourselves constantly deluded.
ust sat down, but lamenting, that in consequence of his indis'
W e are left in the same hopeless state with respect to the at-
position, the argument on this momentous question must cons
ainment of the object of the contest. The right honourable
siderably stiffer from the want of that ability with which it
gentleman says, that he formerly gave a representation of the
266
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267
deplorable state of the French finances from uncertain doen,
necessary to the security of our commerce, or to the balance
ments, but that he is now enabled to confirm the same repre-
of power, France, resourceless and dispirited, all, the while -
sentation from the most indubitable authority — the statement
avowing her own distressed situation with respect to finance,
of the directory. I am apt to believe that the documents of
and talking in the most respectful terms of our wealth and
the right honourable gentleman in .both instances are equally
resources, has been constantly adding to her acquisitions, and
authoritative. Formerly he proceeded on the speeches of
aggrandising her empire. France appears, in the present
leading members of the convention, and on official reports.
moment, as the conqueror of most extensive and important
He now grounded his statement on a publication of the
territories. Belgium is annexed to her empire, great part of
directory. If his authority has failed him in former in.
Italy has yielded to the force of her arms, and Holland is now
stances, what force can he now attach to conclusions drawn
united to the fate of the republic by ties of the strictest alliance.
from similar premises. It has been found from experience,
If; indeed, these acquisitions could be regained to the cause
that in proportion as the finances of the French have been ac-
of Great Britain and her allies by a lofty tone of argument, if
knowledged, even by themselves, to be reduced to the lowest
the tide of victory could be turned by the dexterity of debate,
ebb, in the same proportion have their exertions been won_
and the efficacy of our exertions bore any proportion to the
derful and unparalleled. Now the right honourable gentle-
insolence of our boasting, we need not yet be afraid to claim
man builds his conclusion of the certain ruin of the French
a decided superiority. -'We are not at all deficient on the
finances on an immediate statement from the directory. I
score of confident assertion or presumptuous menace.
wonder that he does not go farther, and quote the very in-
But, Sir, it is by other means, and by another criterion
genious letter of Lord Malmesbury, in which he reports the
that this question is to be decided. Weak and inconsidera-
conversation that took place between him and M. Delacroix,
ble as I am in this House, I did my utmost previous to the
in this conversation the French minister is represented as
commencement of this unfortunate contest, to persuade the
having paid the highest compliments to the extensive means
government to send an ambassador to Paris, when undoubt-
possessed by this country, as having described it from its in-
edly he would have met with the treatment which an am-
ternal sources of wealth, and from its colonies in the Indies,
bassador of Great Britain is now alleged to have experienced.
to be mistress of almost boundless resources. Thus, while
But when ministers tell us, that this ambassador was dismissed
the directory admit that Great Britain is distinguished by her
in a way unexampled in the history of civilized nations, they
wealth, and full of resources, they have no hesitation to ac-
surely must have forgot the manner in which M. Chauvelin
knowledge their own poverty and embarrassments. They
was sent from this country. At a subsequent period, when
acknowledge to all Europe, that from the want of money, the
the whole of Belgium was regained, when the French were
army is considerably in arrears, and every branch of the in-
not possessed of one foot of ground in that territory, did 1
ternal administration under circumstances of the greatest em-
then neglect my duty to the country ? No ! I then renewed
barrassment and distress. They at the same time allow to this
my motion for peace. This was at the period before the
country all the advantages of an augmented commerce, and
powers combined against France had gained the fortress of
of increasing opulence and prosperity. In this House we
Val enciennes ; but when it was certain that it must fall, I
have heard France represented as sometimes in the gulph,
contended that then was the period to make peace. And
and sometimes on the verge of bankruptcy; and it is rather
now ask, if an attempt had been then made to negociate,
w
curious, that at different periods we should have heard it al
hether we might not have expected to have obtained peace
ternately described at one time as in the very gulph, and at
Oil terms as honourable and as advantageous as any which we
another as on the verge of bankruptcy. But, while they admit
can now possibly lay claim to ? Again and again have
the ruined state of their own finances, what a striking con-
Pressed upon the House the necessity and policy of adoptinu
trast do their exertions in their present contest, and the suc-
Ime
r)
asures for the restoration of peace, and again and again
leave
cess which has followed from their operations, afford to the
my motions for that purpose been rejected. In order to
conduct and fate of those who have been entrusted with the
snow how greatly ministers miscalculated the nature of the
management of the war on the part of this country ! Whilst
cn
`asiitest, at that former period when I argued for peace, it
we, in every quarter, which it was deemed most important to
said , " What, make peace before you have achieved a
defend, have been losing city after city; whilst we have been
'ionic contest, and when you are just beginning to make ad-
equally driven from the possessions which we Conceived to be
vances in the country of the enemy !" Such, at that time,
p
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1 796.1
was the style of reasoning brought forward in opposition to
French minister, so often brings forward his profession of
the arguments which I urged in favour of peace. So widely
hi,rh consideration, I cannot but smile, when I recollect that
were ministers then deceived with respect to the nature of the
Lord Auckland was made a peer (for I know of no other . reason
contest, so falsely did they calculate as to the turn of subse,
for his advancement to that dignity), merely because he de-
quent events ! Unhappy calculation ! Unhappy mistake
clared that the men who are now addressed in such respectful
The object did not respect a particular branch of trade, or
terms " ought to be put under the sword of the law," and be-
a limited extent of territory : the most important interests of
cause he denounced them as miscreants and traitors to all
the country were at stake. The ministers, by their calcula-
His lordship, by this declaration, brought for-
Europe *-
tions, were not pledging Jamaica, or any island of the West
ward in a public capacity, shelved that he, acting on the part.
Indies ; they were pledging Great Britain herself, the fate of
of Great Britain, was not slow to be their executioner and
which may in some degree be considered as depending on the
their j udge.
issue of this night's debate. The right honourable gentle-
Sir, there is one part of the address, which the right honour-
man, formerly, in talking of the nature of the contest, made
able gentleman has entirely omitted to notice, and to which I
use of a memorable expression, which cannot easily be for-
l
can by no means subscribe — that his majesty has neglected no
gotten. He intimated that the nature of the contest was such,
proper opportunity to conclude this war. A few years ago,
at our exertions ought to be bounded only by our resources,
when I earnestly pressed the propriety of negociation, the
and that our efforts must he extended to the utmost pitch,
right honourable gentleman contended, that the French were
before we could hope for an honourable termination of the
not capable of maintaining the relations of peace and amity.
struggle. He expressly declared that we ought not to cease
He neither, however, at that time, nor at any subsequent
from the contest, till we should be able to say,
period, shoved any reason why they were not capable of
maintaining those relations. I ask, in what respect they are
Potuit quw plurima virtus
now become more capable of maintaining those relations than
Esse, fuit ; toto certatum est corpore regal.
when I formerly proposed to treat ? Will the right honour-
able gentleman say, that then there was only a provisional
The right honourable gentleman has stated the difficulties
government, and that there
attendant upon the negociation, as arising from two circum-
now exists a permanent constitu-
tion? I am sure that he will not venture to press that argu-
stances; first, the difficulty in all eases of proposing overtures,
without being able to ascertain what reception they are likely
ment, as he must be aware of the extent to which it will lead
him. And if such be the case, I have no hesitation to state,
to experience; secondly, the particular obstacles from the re-
that the assertion in the address, that no proper opportunity
lative situation of the. two countries. The right honourable
gentleman has, however, omitted to state a difficulty more
has been omitted to conclude peace, is entirely false, and as
weighty and insuperable than either of those I have now men-
such, must meet my decided negative. At last, however, the
right honourable gentleman declares, that he felt it his duty to
tioned. In every negociation the difficulty of coming to any
attemp t
definitive arrangement must be infinitely increased, in propor-
negociation. I did not think it my duty to come for-
ward to animadvert either on the motives of his conduct, or
tion to the degree of distrust entertained by the parties with
for the probable
respect to their mutual intentions. If the right honourable
obable result of the. measure, till the event had spoken
The r
gentleman had some reason to suspect the sincerity of the
ie result has proved to be such as, however
. a
French directory, had not they at least equal ground to en-
nxiously we may be disposed to deprecate it, it was not diffi-
cult to foresee from the mode in which it has been conducted.
tertain the same doubts with respect to his views iii the tier
I
the country, indeed
f th
•
elation ? After every epithet of reproach had been exhausted
consider the administration of the
right honourable gentleman to be a blessing,
by ministers to vilify their characters, was it to be expected
a they
y m ust take
mus a
their
that they would readily listen to terms of peace dictated by those
between the continuance of that blessin• and
the re
ministers, except they were brought into that state of neces-
storation of peace. It is evident, that those individuals
sity and submission, which precluded them from any alterna-
who have conducted the war with such notorious incapacity,
and entailed so many mischiefs on the country, must of all
tive, and compelled them to an unconditional complianee
with any pacific proposition that might be presented to their
acceptance? When Lord Malmesbury, in addressing the
See Vol. S ., p. 84.
270
RUPTURE OF THE NEGOCIATION
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others be the most unfit to repair the errors of their own ix,
adroitness in the management of argument, and the arts of
licy, and secure to Great Britain_ the enjoyment of permanent
political finesse; to confound the shallow capacity, and super-
tranquillity. But not only have they evinced this glaring
ficial
of the French minister and to make the
capacity in the management of the present war, their conduct
cause of this country appear to be the better cause. 'While
in former negotiations with respect to Spain and Russia has
Load Malmesbury was employed thus honourably in the dis-
been such, as on the one hand to excite considerable distrust,
play of his talents at Paris, the minister had an object of
and'on the other to inspire a well-grounded hope of bringing
policy to answer at home. It was' found convenient for the
them down from the loftiest pretensions to the most burnt,
purpose of financial arrangements to hold out the hopes of
hating concessions. But what can be thought of their since,
peace,
ae till such time as it was found that the appearance of
rity in the present instance, when they have repeatedly de,
negociation might be renounced without any unfavourable
dared that any peace, under the particular circumstances,
effect, as to the supplies of the year.
could only afford a breathing space from hostility, and ulti,
But, in order more completely to ascertain the sincerity
mately must tend to redouble all the mischiefs to be dreaded
which has been shewn by ministers in the desire which they
from a continuance of the war? But even if ministers had
have expressed for'peace, and the fairness of the means which.
conducted the 'war with ability as distinguished as their inca.
they have employed for the attainment of that object, it may .
,pacity has been notorious, if they had displayed in debate as
be necessary to enter a little more minutely into the history of
much temper and prudence as they have discovered impoli-
the negociation, and to follow the right honourable gentle-
tic and indecent violence, if they had shewn themselves as
man through the long detail which he has brought forward
much friends to the French as on every occasion they have
on the subject, and which was sufficiently laboured to prove
endeavoured to prove themselves the reverse; still I should
that he was aware of all the difficulties with which he had to
have no hopes of peace on any permanent basis, except the
contend in vindicating the character of the British govern-
present system of policy was entirely changed, and the prin-
ment, and of the necessity of putting the most favourable
ciples upon which the war was undertaken totally disavowed.
gloss uPon their conduct. The first step taken fbr the pur-
If the administration were to be transferred into the hands of
pose of negociation was, the communication at Basle, in
persons whose abilities I admire, and whose integrity I respect,
which Mr. Wickham had been engaged as the agent of the
as much as I contemn and reprobate the talents and character
British government. As he was not authorized to take any
of those who are now placed at the-helm of affairs, still I should
definitive step, or to ma14.e any declaration binding on the
consider this change of system, and disavowal of principles, to
government, but little stress could be laid on that circum-
be a necessary preliminary of peace. It is necessary, Sir, for
stance. Those, however, who attended to the details of that
the solidity of any peace that may he concluded, that maxims
transaction, would not be disposed, even in that early stage
of sound sense and of impartial equity be recognised in the
of the business, to draw any inference very favourable to the
outset of the negociation. The present has been a war of pas-
sincerity of ministers. The mission of Lord Malrnesbury is
sion and of prejudice, and not of policy and self-defence.
unquestionably- what ministers wish to be considered as the
The right honourable gentleman, whatever may have been
grand effort for peace, -and as affording an unequivocal proof
his sincerity in the transaction, is no stranger to the advan-
of thesincerity of their wishes for its attainment. Of the
tages that may be derived from the idea of a pending De'
details of that negociation we are enabled to judge from the
gociation. That lie now feels those advantages nobody will
Papers which have been laid upon the table of this House.
dispute. I know that some weeks ago a very confident,
Until the publication of his majesty's manifesto on the subject,
report was circulated with respect to the probability, a
acquainted with the circumstances of that trans-
peace. It would be curious to know how far Lord Malmes
il la
l:it', I;
tl lti
olsitIl (fTol the statement of the public prints. I was not a
-bury at that period was influenced by any such belief: It
e surprized when the manifesto reached me in the country,
does AO; appear from the papers on the table, that at the
from the perusal of its contents was induced to suspect.
that30I
momatt he could reasonably hope for a successful issue to his,
iiiisbe
lutist leave been completely misled in my previous in-
negociation. It seems doubtful, indeed, from the inspectioniat
on. On the inspection, however, of the papers laid
those papers, whether Lord Malmesbury was not sent 01'C'.
I was still more surprized when I found that
merely to chew his diplomatic dexterity ; to fence and pall
the public prints were much more accurate in their represent-
with M. Delacroix, in order to evince his superior skill anu
ation of facts than his majesty's declaration. Never, indeed,
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27 3
was there any paper brought forward with the stamp of of:
onchide ; but though lie was thus authorized to conclude, he
ficial authority so little connected with the documents ups'
allowed no latitude to treat. He had no instructions with
which it is professed to be founded ; so little warranted in the
respect to the terms he should propose, and no discretion
conclusions drawn from its premises. It entirely conceals the
which to act with respect to the propositions he might
uf )011
most important facts of the negotiation, and states the others
ceive. When he was asked, if he came to treat for the
re
so loosely as not to exhibit them in any precise and distinct
King of Great Britain separately ? he said, No : but that he
shape. The right honourable gentleman has stated, th at a
came jointly to treat for the King of Great Britain and his
degree of disrespect was in the first instance shewn to a foreign
allies. When lie was asked, if lie was furnished with any
court by the French _directory, in their refusal to grant a
powers from those allies? he again replied, No. 'When he
passport for a British ambassador, upon the application ej
leas asked, what terms he had to propose ? he said lie would
the minister from the court of Denmark. But how does this
send for instructions. Thus it appeared, that he was em-
fact stand ? The court of Denmark did not at all interfere
powered to conclude for the King of Great Britain, but not
in the. business. The Danish minister in the letter in which
qualified to treat; and that for the allies for whom lie came
he applied for a passport, expressly stated, that he acted
to treat, lie had no power to conclude. Could there possibly
merely in a private capacity, and not in consequence of any
be a more ridiculous farce — a more palpable mockery of the
instruction which he had received from his court. So much,
forms of negociation ?
then, for the alleged disrespect shewn by the French to a
We next come to the basis; and this, indeed, carries us
foreign court, and the inference which is thence drawn of a
but a little way in the progress of negotiation. In this in-
disposition thus manifested to throw contempt on all esta-
stance, the basis was laid so wide, as to comprehend no dis-
blished usages, and to dispense with the ordinary forms of
tinct object, and to be reducible 1;0 no precise meaning. It
accommodation, and the understood civilities of political
was that sort of general principle which no one could possibly
intercourse.
dispute, but which could at the same time be attended with
I understand, that as an apology for bringing forward the
no practical benefit. The French accordingly stated, that
manifesto previous to the publication of the papers, much has
they had agreed to your principle, and that they only disputed
been said of the mechanical labour of preparing those papers
its application. The right honourable gentleman has asserted
in
for the inspection of the House. I have formerly been
that a basis is always desirable ; but then, it ought to be a
office, and I believe that those who are now engaged in the
basis, which meant something, and not, as in the present in-
service of the department are fully as capable and diligent as
stance, which meant nothing. The principle of mutual com-
the persons by whom I was then assisted. And I confidently
is r substantially recognized in every negotiation,
declare that I see nothing in the mechanical labour of those
and b
equire to be specified. The general objects of
papers that, if they had arrived on Saturday morning,
dispute in fixin,,,
la a basis of negotiation have been, whether
ought to hale prevented them from being in a state of readi-
it
e
e regulated by the
regulate
status quo ante helium, or the
ness to be produced on Saturday evening. But I rather
Sri possidetis?
right honourable gentleman stated, as a
suspect, that with regard to the publication of the manifesto,
proof of reluctance to negotiate on the part of the French,
it was thought expedient to attempt to give a bias to the sen-
that they for some time hesitated to admit our proposed basis ;
b
timents of the House, before it was deemed advisable to
m fact, they virtually recognized the principle when
submit the facts contained in the papers to their cool and
they entered into the discussion of terms. He who asks,
w
sober investigation. As to the delay which has been imputed
hat you will give, or states what lie is willing to receive, at
d to
on the score of mechanical labour, I am rather dispose
°nee admits the basis of mutual compensation. But - as a
Proof
believe that it was purposely interposed, in order to afford 10
of the consistenc y of ministers, a fortnight afterwards,
de-
ministers an opportunity of revising the papers, and of
\\dice the French formally recognized the principle, and.
ciding what part ,of their contents it might be prudeet n
asked Lord Malmesburv, what terms he was prepared to
suppress, and what might be safely submitted to the publlil
t"Pnse; lie Was unprovided with any answer, and obliged
s Wi'
eye. It is curious to attend to the nature of the power
° send to this country for instructions. What inference is
which Lord Malmesbury was furnished, and to their conn,_:
b
it e drawn from this conduct on the part of ministers.? Is
tion with the object of his mission. He was sent in 0017
not most probable, that by thus bringing forward a futile,
to negotiate for peace, and furnished with full pow er50
' Ilus°r37, and unmeaning 'basis, they expected to disgust the
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French in the first instance, and at once to get rid of the
add double energy to our future efforts. In this situation,
negociation ? And if the French, who must have felt then,
.od with this particular view, what wise man would have
selves mocked by this treatment, and who must have beet
looked to the last precedent of negociation in order to regulate
more and more assured of the insincerity of our ministers,
his conduct, and have conceived it necessary to proceed with
had thought proper to stop all farther proceedings, would
all the tediousness of forms and dexterity of diplomatic
they not have been fully justified? On what principle wet,
artifice, which might have been employed in any former in-
they bound to countenance a transaction which was conducted
stance? Instead of carrying your pretensions higher than
with no good faith, and could promise no satisfactory issuer
you might be disposed to accept, you should have gone to
Undoubtedly ministers expected that the French would resent
the other extreme; you should have stated them at the lowest
the insult, and break off the negociation in its outset. They
point of what you deemed to be fair and equitable, and, if
thus hoped to obtain an easy credit for their pacific intentions,
nay thing, have been rather below the mark of what you
and to throw upon the enemy the odium of determined
might fairly claim, than exorbitant and unreasonable in your
hostility, and an unreasonable rejection of the preliminar;
demands. You would thus have secured the end which the
basis of negociation. Unfortunately, however, for t6
minister professed to have in view— to render apparent to
project, the basis was recognized. The disappointment of
all Europe the equity and moderation of your own sentiments,
ministers was evident. Lord Malmesbury was unprepared
and the injustice and ambition of the enemy. Had the
how to act, and obliged to send home for farther instructions.
French, from a suspicion of your sincerity, been inclined to
The question with ministers .then became, 46 Since the French
break off the negociation in the first stage, they might have
have so ungraciously and unexpectedly accepted the basis
said, "As no basis has been agreed upon, we see that the
which we intended to be rejected, what can we find that they
negociation can come to no good, and therefore we will stop
must be indispensably called upon to refuse ? What terms of
all farther proceedings." But when they acceded to your
insult and humiliation can we find that may rouse their pride,
basis, and invited you to propose particular terms, it became
and inevitably provoke rejection ?" Lord Malmesbury, who
you to be doubly careful, by the fairness and moderation with
before had no terms to propose, was now instructed to bring
which you acted, to demonstrate the equity of your character,
forward terms for the purpose of being rejected; and care
and vindicate your sincerity in the eyes of Europe.
was taken that they should be of such a nature as could
I shall now advert, Sir, to the two confidential memorials.
not undergo much discussion, or readily to fail of their
I confess that I never was more struck with the impossibility,
purpose.
even for talents the most splendid, and eloquence the most
1 come now, Sir, to consider what was said by the right
powerful, to cover the weakness of a cause, and supply the
honourable gentleman with respect to the particular terms.
deficiency of real argument, than in the instance of what the
In commencing this part of his speech, he thought sow
right honourable gentleman said with respect to Holland.
apology necessary for the sort of terms which had been pro-
Even if Holland should be restored to its former situation, if
posed by Lord Malmesbury on the part of this country. 11(
the Stacltholder should be reinstated in the government, and
stated that it was always usual to be somewhat high in out
the alliance renewed with this country, the right honourable
demands in the first instance; that propositions at the OM-
gentleman does not go the length of saying, that even then
mencement of -a negociation were never considered as decisive,
he would restore to Holland all her former possessions. No :
and that, in the progress of treating, we might relax fi•o
ver n
ight
bl '
then, perhaps, only be disposed to relax in their
our original demands as circumstances should render expe-
favour a considerable part of the conditions on which the
dient. But, was the right honourable gentleman so unfit for
present state of thinas obli gess him to insist. A rightt ho-
the situation which he held, so ill qualified to judge of the
nourable gentleman(Mr. Dundas) some time since made a
conduct which was proper for those times, as seriously t°
i
c
mprudent declaration in this H ouse — that as we had
maintain this argument? Did lie not recollect, that, fro°
taken the Cape of Good Hope and Ceylon, we meant to keep
what he had himself stated, negociation itself might be coo:
them for ever. VII c feel ourselves, it seems, too nearly in-
sidered as made upon a hostile principle? He had described
terested in those acquisitions to be disposed to relinquish them.
it as a negociation, the unsuccessful result of which must te nd
.ibis is reasoning very much i la Francaise. We say that it
to divide France and to unite Great Britain, which
's better even for the Dutch themselves, that Ceylon and the
art
give indubitable confirmation to the justice'of our cause, a
'Pe of Good Hope should be in our hands than in theirs.
0
T
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The French may, with equal justice, allege the same pretence
Tobago; reserving, however, one of them as an equivalent,
fbr their refusal to part with Belgium. They may say that it is
if they are to retain St. Domingo.
more fbr the interest of Belgium that it should remain
'The restoration of Belgium is stated as a i
site qua non ; it has
their hands, than that it should be restored to Austria. 13et
been represented to be of the utmost importance, that it should
if Holland be not, in every respect, reinstated in her former
not be suffered to remain in the hands of the French. I
situation, then, says the right honourable gentleman, we
should, indeed, regret to see Belgium attached to the territo-
have nothing to propose. It is curious to remark, in the
ries of the republic; but if you are really sincere in your
very moment that he is at such pains to represent the demands
sh f for peace,
wishes you consider Belgium as an object of so
of the French as in the highest degree exorbitant and unjust,
much value, do not offer brass for gold. Let us put the case,
how much he countenances those demands by the style of his
13t1).1faoi aity Belgium was still in the hands of' the emperor, how would
own pretensions. He says, " We have taken a great deal from
.tttootif really
treat the offer of two or three West India islands, on the
Holland, they have taken nothing from us, therefore we are
the French, in order that it might be given up to them?,
not bound in justice and equity to make them any restitution;
wished France to give up Belgium, you should
Inn, if Maestricht, or some place, be ceded to the emperor
have offered to give up the Cape of Good Hope, which a de-
for the security of the Austrian Netherlands, we may perhaps
termination has been so indiscreetly expressed to retain. I •
be induced to'rnake them some restitution, but on no account
have no hesitation in saying, that it ought only to be con-
can we consent that Ceylon or the Cape of Good Hope shall
sidered as an instrument to procure the restoration of peace
be restored." On the same grounds might the French
on lilvourable terms, and that if you could get a proper equi-
say, " We have taken a great deal from the emperor, he has
valent, you ought not to keep it. What you now offer is
taken nothing from us, we therefore are . not bound in jus-
trifling indeed, and if France should comply with your de-
tice and equity to make him any restitution : we demand
mands, what would be her relative situation with respect to
that the uti possi delis shall be the basis of the negotiation,."
the other powers of Europe? She would, in that case, have
What are the specific proposals which you make to the
given up Belginm, Luxemburgh and Italy, and farther it is
French ? You propose to them to give up all their conquests
required, that something should be ceded to the emperor, in
to the emperor, and to evacuate Italy. The right honour-
order, as is stated, to render him secure on the side of the
able gentleman has said, that it is a strained geographical
Austrian Netherlands. • The three great powers of Europe
supposition, that by this demand with respect to Italy, it
will all of them be left with considerable acquisitions. The
should be understood that they are also required to evacuate
King of Prussia has gained a third part of Poland. Russia
Savoy and Nice. I know not upon what geographical au-
has obtained a considerable extent of territory from that un-
thority he proceeds, when he affirms that this would be a
fortunate country ; and, in addition to his share in the division,
strained supposition. I always thought that these places had
it is also proposed that the Emperor of Germany shall be put
been in no other country but Italy ; perhaps I may have been
in possession of Maestricht, or of some other place. France
mistaken. You propose to the French to evacuate Italy, to
is only to be left with Savoy, Nice and Avignon. Is the state
give up the Milanese, Belgium and Luxemburgh ; you de-
of the war such as to justify this proposition ? Is it fair and
mand of them to negoeiate the arrangement of peace with
equitable that all the other powers should gain more than
Germany, with his imperial majesty as constitutional head of
France? When Great Britain made a proposition so un-
the empire. And though the French are already at peace
reasonable, France naturally took a step calculated to give
with the most considerable Germanic powers, with the King
Confidence to the people in those countries she had annexed
of Prussia, with the Electors of Saxony, Hanover, &c.
to the republic, by declaring that on no account could she
thus would place them in a situation in which they would
Consent to give them up. In the ingenious conference which
have to begin all these treaties anew. You hint, indeed, that
took place between the British ambassador and the French
in consequence of this arrangement, which supposes on then
'Y' i" ister, Lord Malmesbury declared that the King of Great
part so great a sacrifice, it is not impossible that soo.e
ii,rttain would not recede from his demand with respect to the
cession may be made to them on the Germanic side of 0'6'1.
Neth erlands. Must not the French, in consequence of this
decl
frontiers. And in return for all the sacrifices you require fro?
aration, have been induced to assume an equally resolute
the French, you offer to restore to them Martinique, St. 1.4108:
104e with respect to their intention of keeping that territory,
' hen, from the nature of the terms proposed, they perceived
T 3
278
RUPTURE OF THE NEGOCIATION
[Dec. 34.
1,196.]
FOR PEACE WITH FRANCE.
279
no likelihood that peace could be had ? As to the French
in the attempt to wrest Belgium from the French, and the
minister having asked Lord Malmesbury to give in his 114,
uncertainty of obtaining the object, the minister, who on that
matum, it evidently meant no more than that he should make
und only shall refuse to make peace, has undoubtedly much
a formal declaration of what he had said with respect to Bei,
ar0
to answer for on the score both of policy and humanity.
gium ; a demand which surely cannot be considered asili,
And here, Sir, comes the question of the treaty concluded
reasonable. After having heard this day so much statttLey
with the emperor i,n 1793, by which we engaged not to lay
the value of Belgium, and such importance attached tr. 11,e
down our arms without his consent. I greatly lamented the
demand that it should be restored to the emperor, I
dconclusion
a of a ny such treaty at the time, and then beought
but recollect that it is not very long since the peop le of
motion, that it was the duty of the House not to
forwar
that country were in a state of rebellion, and that it was sur.
approve of any engagements that might tend to create obsta-
mised at the time, that we were by no means averse to support
cles in the way of peace. If we urge the stipulations of a
them in their endeavours to shake off the Austrian yoke. But
treaty, as a reason why we cannot conclude peace but on cer-
however great the value of Belgium may be, is it an object of
tain terms, we directly sanction the sort of argument which is
such immense consequence as to justify the continuance of a
represented as so unjustifiable on the part of the French. I
long, a hazardous, and destructive war ? Is it worth
certainly am no friend to setting up the constitution of France
contended for at the expence of such blood and treasure?
against the droit publique of Europe. But, are the French
And even if the objects be deemed so valuable as to justify all
in their arrangements to consider the engagements of our
these sacrifices, there is another question to be considered.
treaties, as of greater weight and consequence than we affect
If, in addition to that expellee and carnage with which the
to consider theirs? The right honourable gentleman has put
war has already been attended, it be proper to sacrifice a
the case, that supposing the French constitution decreed that
hundred millions more, and a hundred thousand men for its
the city of Westminster formed an integral part of the repub-
attainment, it ought also to be shewn that it is attainable by
lic, were we bound to respect such a determination ? The•
those means. From the experience of the past, who will pre-
case may be retorted, that if we by our treaty with the emperor
tend to say that a continuance of war and all its calamities
had stipulated to put him in possession of Paris, with what
will tend ultimately to bring you nearer to your object?
colour could so ridiculous a stipulation be urged as an obstacle
ought, beside, to be recollected that the emperor, who is your
to peace ? We had no more right to talk of our treaties, than
friend to-day, may be your enemy to-morrow. I remember
they of the regulations laid down with respect to their bound-
that it is not eight months since the emperor was not so much
mines. If an absurd or impracticable condition is introduced
a favourite with ministers; perhaps, indeed, they were cautious
into a treaty, is there not reason to suspect, that it has been
in expressing their partiality, lest it should be suspected that
foisted in merely for the purpose of throwing difficulties in the
money was then going to the court of Vienna. At that time,
Ivay of peace ?
the King of Sardinia was extolled as a pattern of fidelity to
The right honourable gentleman has gone at length into the
all princes: the emperor seemed to make no figure in the
Subject of the French constitution. He laid great stress on a
comparison. I do not mean to impute to the Sardinian
• remark of M. Delacroix, that it would be impossible to revoke
monarch any breach of faith ; circumstances of necessity com-
the regulations of the constitution with respect to the bound-
pelled him to conclude a treaty with the French republic,
aries of the republic without convening the primary assemblies.
and we have not heard in what situation he is now to be con-
Ns, which he treated as an exaggeration of time proposition
sidered with respect to this country. Ministers have alteadY
0f the French minister, that it was impossible to give up any .
sent large sums to his imperial majesty : we are are about to
part of the territory annexed to the republic, I, on' the con-
make still farther advances, and it cannot be calculated that,
ocini sidher in the light of an explanation, and as doing
the alliance can be maintained at an expence to the country 01
nay all the offensive part of the principle. For instance, if
less than two millions annually. I mean no reflection on the
It.n, e Prince of Hesse Darmstadt had applied to me, as a mi-
character of the emperor; but if we should not be able to
,',!ster of this country, to conclude with him a subsidiary treaty,
grant him the same assistance, he may be reduced to the man!e
aY'
:irth
the
measure advisable, I would have signified my
necessity as the King of Sardinia, and compelled to conclude
tlead
ub
iness to acquiesce in his application; but at the same time
a peace. When all these circumstances are considere d/ t()-A
*
p
have told him, that I must first consult the House of
,e her with the sacrifices which must necessarily be incurreu
• ""ons, and that without their approbation the constitution
T 4
280
RUPTURE or THE NEGOCIATION
[Dee. 30.
1796
FOR PEACE WITH FRANCE.
.]
281
declared that it was impossible to dispose of any part of the
bad their ends. They have often, much too often, been em-
public money. The same conduct I should have pursued to.
oy.ed to cover the dexterity of a debate; and in some situ-
pl
wards the emperor, in making advances to whom,
tionS they
they may almost appear harmless; but these little quib- '
during the present session, have thought themselves entitled to
g
Ming distinctions are not adapted to the important affairs of
-dispense with the- most valuable privilege of the House of
which we are now to consider. The minister, in ordinary
Commons. And when, in this instance, I cited the constitution
cases, shall be welcome on my part to his little triumph in such
of this country, it could not be considered as a direct nega.
little artifices : but these are not times to indulge him in them.
tive on the application, but only as throwing a difficulty in the
He is not made for these times of great difficulty. When the
way of the measure. We are not bound to respect the French
fate of a question, comparatively indifferent, is before us, his ta-
constitution ; but they, undoubtedly, in the course of nego.
lents are well adapted to obtain success, which, for my own part,
ciation, may fairly urge any ground of difficulty which its re-
.1 do not envy him ; but when the fate of empires depend upon
gulations present to a compliance with our demands.
our proceedings, we should not give way to his vanity. These
The right honourable gentleman has imputed to the French,
arc times that require openness and candour, and a determi-
all the odium and blame of breaking off the negociation. He
nation to look at the posture of our affairs in a bold and un-
says, that we arc not bound by any thing as a sine qua" non,
daunted manlier. Prevarication, subterfuge, and evasion, will
for that, in the nature of a negociation, is impossible until
not now do. The plain question now is, peace or war ? How-
it is concluded. That, Sir, is easily stated in the course of a
ever the right honourable gentleman may contrive to persuade
debate. But whatever the right honourable gentleman may
the majority of this House, that his inclinations bend towards
say upon the subject, the world at large, in judging dispassion-
peace, I have no doubt, but the papers in the interest of mi-
ately upon it, will regard the memorial of Lord Malmesbury
nisters will hold forth to the public, that the vigorous prose-
as the sine qua non of the court of Great Britain respecting
cution of the war is the only measure which the country has
Belgium. You say it may be recovered by force of arms.
left for its security. Members of this House, when they go
Good God! what is the probability of that event? 'What
into the country, will perhaps hold a different language, and
arc we to do ? What can we do ? What security have we
tell their constituents that they do not hold themselves pledged
that we shall not sink in our prospects upon that event, and
to a continuance of the war. But it will not be believed. The
that they will not rise in proportion as we sink ? Remember
sine quit non with regard to Belgium, will overbalance the as-
the time when Belgium was in possession of the allies, and it
sertions of members of parliament. Parliament has not that
was proposed that we should enter upon a negociation for
credit which it once had—parliament does not deserve to
peace then, and at which time the French would have gladly
have that credit.
attended to terms of peace of which they will not now hear.
There is, Sir, a generally prevailing idea, that the House
What, in. the prosecution of this unhappy contest, are you to
cannot get rid of the decision of this day. The question is
look for the farther you proceed, but terms still worse than
plainly, peace or war ? The proposition of a negociation was
4
those which you might 'obtain even now, if you gave proof of
said to be for peace : the present address is evidently for war.
it
sincerity in the negociation ? Consider what your disgrace
will not be got rid of by any ambiguous shuffling, by way
of
will be if you fail to recover Belgium, which you have told
amendment, as former motions in this House have been.
the world is a sine qua non. Are you prepared for all the ha-
An honourable friend of mine near me (Mr. Grey) some time
zards that may attend it? If you are, say so at once boldly,
agc, moved a fact. The minister thought proper to decline
country
It,
and act like men ; but do not amuse the people of this h
but he did not dare to do it by a direct negative ; he
th
by a delusive pretence, as you did by an amendment, wich
erefore got rid of it by a shuffling amendment. In con-
se
you adopted, to get rid of the motion of an honourable
quence of the cavils of that day, one hundred millions
st
of mine, and in which you stated to Europe that you wool",
erling have been added to the national debt, and half
m
a
negotiate with Fiance when her government was capable 0 .
illion of souls have been swept from the face of the earth.
maintaining the relations of peace and amity with other
If t he House shall be of opinion, that Belgium is really en-
t
powers*. I know that these little tricks and artifices
itled to be regarded as a sine qua non, that it is an object
fo r which this country ought to continue at war, till it has
'lair another hundred millions, and shed the blood of
'W
Sec Vol. V. p. 367.
rit million more of our fellow creatures; if the House is
282
RUPTURE OF THE NEGOCIATION
[Dee:.
1796A
FOR PEACE WITH FRANCE.
283
of this opinion, it ought openly to declare it. If, on th
constitu tion , half French, half English, and endeavoured to
contrary, the House should think with me, that this count
detach them entirely from any predilections they might be
ought riot to expend such immense treasures of money and':
s
e sed with in flavour of French principles. The French
blood to obtain Belgium, in order to restore it to the em;
were, and always had been, represented by ministers, and
peror, who may, perhaps, in a short time, be no longer our
those they employed, as a hoard of assassins. Suppose the
ally ; then let them act like men, and by some fair and nu.
Corsicans had said, they chose the King of Great Britain as
equivocal amendment, convince the country, that they -will
their king, and had desired, in the strongest terms, to be
no longer be parties to such a dreadful waste of blood and
attached to the British empire as a part of it, and entreated.
treasure.
that they might not be given up to this hoard of assassins;
I now come, Sir, to what is said with regard to the break-
would you have said in a negociation for peace, that Corsica
ing off the negociation, by making Belgium a sine qiui 12011.
was an object of restoration ? I fancy not. May not the
If it be true that Lord Malmesbury did this, I ask upon what
French, then, use the same argument with respect to Bel-
ground it was done ? 'Was the emperor a party to the ne-
? On,former occasions, when I said that the conquests
gociation? Here, then, is a sine qua non made in a matter
in the West Indies would be a means of negociation, the .
intended solely for the benefit of the emperor, to which,
right honourable gentlemen started at the idea. He then
nevertheless, he is not a party, and which we do not know
ridiculed the notion of a status quo ante Odium ; he par-
whether he himself would absolutely insist on or not. Surely
ticularly alluded to Martinico, which he said was not to be
this might have been known before the negociation was
considered like a conquest in former wars; that this island
entered upon. When we were so often sending such immense
was taken at the particular request of the inhabitants of it,
sums to the emperor, millions after millions, surely some
who all desired to be taken into the protection and allegiance,
person or other employed in those offices might have asked
and to become subjects of his Britannic majesty. Martinico
the question. Has any one done so? No. I ask any
was, however, mentioned in this negociation, and the right
partial man, then, if this is not a mere mockery? But, says
honourable gentleman had gone off from his high language.
the right honourable gentleman with great emphasis, why
The right honourable gentleman has mentioned the break-
did not the directory present a contre projet ? To whom
ing off the negociation as " a matter of disappointment, but
should they present it? Was the emperor a party? No.
not of despondency or despair." I certainly am not one of
They had, then, no one to present it to, for every thing
those who despair of the country. I very well know that
contained in our prqjet was for the emperor's benefit alone.
we are not yet at the end of our resources; but I am certain
I agree with the right honourable gentleman as to the prin-
that we are every day approaching nearer to it. If we had
ciple, that a people, who come into the power of another
peace at this moment, I have very little doubt but, with
people by the chance of war, cannot, by the law of nations,
economy in every department, a due regard to the finances,
be disposed of, lawfully, till the definitive treaty of peace
and to the encouragement of the commerce and manufactures
is concluded ; but this is very different from a people who
of the country, we might still retrieve ourselves from our
p
are left at liberty to chase a government for themselves,
resent difficulties; but if the war is to continue any length
and who, after such liberty, voluntarily adopt the step of
of time, God only knows what may be the dreadful conse-
uniting themselves with their neighbours, and those who,
quences ! Certain, however, it is, that peace cannot be ob-
perhaps, at one time might have claimed over them the right
tained! by a perseverance in the present system. It must be
of conquest.
Changed. I am not one of those who wish to alter the con-
sti
Sir, there is one thing very remarkable, that in all this
tution: I wish only to reform it; to restore the voice of
negociation, where almost every possession of all the parties
the people to that rank in it which it is entitled to hold;
is taken notice of, one place should never once have heel
t° inake the opinion of the minister nothing; to see that of
mentioned. The name of the valuable and important island
the people every thing. I am told, You wish for a removal
of Corsica never appears in a single instance. Did ministers
try, the present ministers. I for one certainly do. The coun-
say when they took Corsica, You may form a government Of
'1Y, in my opinion, cannot be saved without it. The people
your own, and be a free people? Did they offer to leave then/
chase. ET there are those who love the constitution
to themselves? No; they sent a viceroy. Sir Gilbert Elliot
under which ey were born, and not the defacings of it by
min
went as a representative of his majesty, cooked them
isters, it is -me for them to stand forward, to skew them-
RUPTURE OF THE INEGOCIATION
[D1
1796.j
FOR PEACE WITH FRANCE.
285
284
selves, and by constitutional means renovate that constitu.
terial influence, than he used it more liberally than his pre-
tion, which alone can save them and their posterity from
] essors had ever done, not only to prevent reform, but to•
tiec
stab the constitution in every vein, and to plunge us into
inevitable ruin.
It has been said, Sir, that the breaking off the negociat',
armaments and wars far more prodigal, both in blood and
was all owing to the unreasonableness of the enemy. I
treasu re, than had ever been known before in the annals of
not think so. They have taken advantage of the situatic:,
our history. Sir, I shall not trouble the House any farther
at present. I have already taken up too much of their time.
in which their great success has placed them. If they shoy
be able to continue their successes; if they should in cc;
Before I sit down, however, I intreat the House to give the
sequence rise in their demands; there must be great alter..
subject the most mature examination. If they are not for the
continuance of the war, I hope they will, like men, withdraw
ation in the conduct of ministers, or our situation will
deplorable indeed. I cannot here help reflecting on
their confidence from that quarter, where it has been, in my
opinion, so long misplaced, and vote for the amendment
period of the American war. Able men used then to
" It is not our fault; we are not to blame; 'tis all owing t9,
which I shall have the honour to submit to the House.
the unreasonableness of the enemy that we do not obtaili
Mr. Fox then moved an amendment, by leaving out from
the word " result," at the end of the first paragraph, to the
peace." Infatuated and self-abused men ! They were aft&
end of the question, in order to insert these words,
wards, fatally for the interests of this country, convinced 'off
the folly of such arguments, and obliged to accept of terr
" Your majesty's faithful Commons have learnt with inexpressi-
far less favourable than they might have obtained, had
ble concern, that the negociation lately commenced for the re-
gociations been entered upon long before they were. But,
storation of peace has been unhappily frustrated :
good God, Sir ! what were the calamities then, compared to
" In so awful and momentous a crisis, we feel it our duty to
those with which we have now to struggle? What the pros-
speak to your majesty with that freedom and earnestness which
pect of extricating ourselves then, compared with the present?
becomes men, anxious to preserve the honour of your majesty's
The contemplation of the difference is shocking. To Ante-
crown, and to secure the interests of your people : in doing this,
rica we had little to give but her independence, and the
we sincerely deplore the necessity we feel, of declaring that, as
trouble of conciliating her lost affection; to France, Spain,
well from the manner in which the late negociation has been con-
ducted, as from the substance of the memorial, which appears to
&c. mutual restitutions. In the present case, we have no
have produced the abrupt termination of it, we have reason to
prospect but the continuance of the war; and the con*
think 'your majesty's ministers were not sincere in their endea-
quences of that are too dreadful to anticipate, farther than
vours to procure the blessings of peace, so necessary for this
I have already done. There is one other part of the right
distressed country :
honourable gentleman's political conduct, which strikes upon
" The prospect of national tranquillity, so anxiously looked for
my mind at this moment, and which I cannot forbear to
by all descriptions of your majesty's subjects, is at once removed
mention; I mean his entrance into parliament. This was
from our view ; on the one hand, your majesty's ministers insist
towards the close of the American war. He began his par-
upon the restoration of the Netherlands to the emperor, as a sine
• qua non,
liamentary career by opposing it most vehemently, and soon
from which they have pledged your majesty not to recede ;
after the majority which had carried on the war was put an
while on the other, the executive directory of the French repub-
II?, with equal pertinacity, claim the preservation of that part
end to, the right honourable gentleman complimented the
ot their conquest as a condition from which they cannot depart :
Rockingham administration, and said, " You have destroyed
" Under these circumstances, we cannot help lamenting to
the maj ority which carried on the American war ; but you
your majesty the rashness and injustice of your majesty's ministers,
cannot be sure of having gained your end, if you do not
whose long continued misconduct has produced this embarrassing
sit
strike at the root of the evil: there must be a radical reform,
uation, by advising your majesty, before the blessings of peace
otherwise ministers may, on future occasions, arise, who will
hail been unfortunately interrupted, to refuse all negociation for
again plunge the country into more bloody and expensive
the adjustment of the then subsisting differences, although the
Net
wars than even that we have got rid of." The predictions
herlands, now the main obstacle to the return of tranquillity,
Were not then considered by the French republic as a part of
of the right honourable gentleman have been now fatally
their territory, but the annexation of them solemnly renounced,
accomplished. He himself has lived to become that very
and the peace of Europe offered into your majesty's hands, upon
minister, whose anticipated misconduct he had so feelin,gy
the basis of that renunciation, and upon the security and inde-
deplored, and no sooner did he become possessed of minis-
1
2 86 STOPPAGE OF CASH PAYMENTS AT THE BANK. [Feb.1; .
!
179 7'
STOPPAGE OF CASH PAYMENTS AT THE BANK.
2 87
pet dence of Holland, whilst she preserved her neutrality towar
year ; and on the 8th of October following, they sent a writ-
p
same
tea paper to the minister, which concluded by stating, " the
France :
,
" Your majesty's faithful -Commons have further deeply to
absolute necessity, which they conceived to exist, for diminishing
lament, that soon after the commencement of the war, when the
the sum of their present advances to government ; the last having
republic of Holland had been rescued from invasion, and the
been granted with great reluctance on their part, on his pressing
Netherlands had been recovered by the emperor, at a time too
solicitations." In an interview, which took place on the 23d of
when most of the princes of Europe, with resources yet unex_
the same month, on the loans to the emperor being mentioned,
hausted, continued firm in their alliance with Great Britain,
the governor
your
assured Mr. Pitt, " that another loan of that sort
majesty's ministers did not avail themselves of this high and com-
Would go nigh to ruin the country." And on the eth of February,
manding position, for the negociation of an honourable peace, and
497 , the directors ordered the governor to inform the minister,
the establishment of the political balance of Europe, but on the
c, that, under the present state of the bank's advances to govern-
contrary, without any example in the principles and practice of
ment here, to agree with his request of making a farther advance
this or other nations, refused to set on foot any negociation what-
of 1 ,500,0001. as a loan to Ireland, would threaten ruin to the bank,
soever with the French republic ; not upon a real or even alleged
and most probably bring 'the directors to shut up their doors."
refusal on her part to listen to the propositions now rejected by
yith this cause, another springing also out of the war, powerfully
her, nor to any specific proposal of indemnity or political security,
'co-operated. This was the dread of an invasion, which had •
but upon the arrogant and insulting pretence, that her govern-
induced the farmers and others, resident in the parts distant from
ment was incapable of maintaining the accustomed relations of
the metropolis, to withdraw their money from the hands of those
peace and amity amongst nations ; and upon that unfounded and
bankers with whom it was deposited. The run, therefore, com-
merely speculative assumption, advised your majesty to continue
menced upon the country banks, and the demand for specie soon
the war,to a period, when the difficulties in the way of peace have
reached the metropolis. In this alarming state, the ministry
been so much increased by the defection of most of the powers
thought themselves compelled to interfere, and an order ..of the
engaged in the confederacy, and by the conquests and consequent
privy council, was issued on the 26th of February, prohibiting
pretensions of the French republic :
the directors of the bank from " issuing any cash in payment till
1,,••,
" Your majesty's faithful Commons having thus humbly su*,
the sense of parliament could be taken on that subject, and the
mitted to your majesty the reflections which your majesty's gil0
proper measures adopted thereupon for maintaining the means
cious communication . immediately suggest, will proceed with
of circulation, and supporting the public and commercial credit
unremitting diligence to investigate the causes which have pro-
of the kingdom at this important conjuncture."
duced our present calamities, and to offer such advice, as the
On the 27th of February, Mr. Pitt presented the following mes-
critical and alarming circumstances of the nation may require."
sage to the Commons from his majesty :
.
" GEORGE R.
Mr. Secretary Dundas answered Mr. Fox, and was replied to by
" His majesty thinks it proper to communicate .to the House
Mr. Grey ; after which the House divided on the motion, " That
of Commons, without delay, the measure adopted to obviate the
the words proposed to be left out stand part of the question."
effects which might be occasioned by the unusual demand of
Tellers.
Tellers.
specie lately made from different parts of tile country in the me-
tr
{Lord Hawkesbury I
C Gen Tarleton 1_
opolis.—The peculiar nature and exigency of the case appeared
YSAS
1z. —NOES '
.
37'
Mr. Canning
1. Mr. Jekyll
to require, in the first instance, the measure contained in the
order of council which his majesty has directed to be laid before
the House. In recommending this important subject to the
im mediate and serious attention of the House of Commons, his
majesty relies with the utmost confidence on the experienced
Wisdom and firmness of his parliament for taking such measures
as may be best calculated to meet any temporary pressure, and
t
STOPPAGE OF CASH. PAYMENTS AT THE BANK.
o call forth, in the most effectual manner, the extensive resources
of his kingdoms in support of their public and commercial credit;
February
and in defence of their dearest interests."
27. I 797.
,?Tr. Pitt having moved, " That the message be taken into con-
tde
QO early as the month of January 1795, the directors of the bank
ration to-morrow," took that opportunity of givinc, notice, that
Li of England informed Mr. Pitt, that it was their wish, " that
11e should at the same time move for a committee to enquire into
the
he would arrange his finances for the year, in such a manner
outstanding engagements of the bank, and likewise of their
not to depend on any farther assistance from them." These re-
fund, for discharging the same. Upon this,
monstrances were renewed in the months of April and July, in tile
288 STOPPAGE OF CASH PAYMENTS AT THE BANK. [Is'eb.27.
" STOPPAGE OF CASH PAYMENTS AT THE BANK.
289
1797*J
Mr. -Fox said, that although what had been just delivered
/lot think of without seeing that it must shake the very .
by -the right honourable gentleman could be considered
foundation of public credit.
strictly as a notice only of what he intended to bring forward
What led him to . this observation was part of the right
to-morrow, yet at this eventful crisis he did not wish to allow a
honourable gentleman's speech that night, and something
moment to pass without saying a few words. As to what might
which he saw in papers which were now before the House.
or might not be advisable to be done, he should now give
ja the minister's statement of the matter, he had set forth the
no opinion. But with respect to the obligation on every
difficulties of the bank to answer, by payments in cash, for
member of that House, and every man in the country, to
their outstanding engagements. The means of answering
turn in his mind the subject, to employ the whole activity
these engagements in that way formed the difficulty of the
of his intellect upon it, and to form as good an opinion 'as
bank. He had no hesitation in assenting to what the minister
he was able upon it, and that without the delay of a single
bad stated upon the subject, as fin. as payment was to be made
hour, he thought that to give that sort of warning was his
to government : but when he came to reflect upon an order
duty. The right honourable gentleman had said, he should
in council, and on the obedience which he saw the bank dis-
move for a committee of inquiry into the circumstances of
posed to pay to that order, the subject became alarming.
the bank. To a motion for such an inquiry, he should have
He did not say that the conduct of the bank brought on the .
no objection ; it might be useful as far as it went. But he
necessity, but the thing itself appeared to him to be alarming,
owned he saw the propriety of that House making an inquiry
for the bank said they would pay government in bank notes,
to a much greater extent. They should inquire, not only
and that warrants on dividends should be paid in like manner.
into the circumstances of the bank, but also into the circum-
The warrants on dividends were the interest of the national
stances which led to the present embarrassment. The right
debt. He was not now going to anticipate the measure
honourable gentleman had stated some things relative to the
which parliament should adopt upon the. occasion, nor to
prosperous state of the bank, which he would dare to say
discuss it at length ; but parliament having passed an act
were warranted, and which he hoped would be made ma-
binding the bank to pay the warrants on dividends, not in
nifest in the result of the inquiry. They should not, how-
bank notes but in money, this was a very alarming proposition,
ever, stop here; they should inquire into all the causes of this
and worthy of the serious attention of the House.
necessity ; they should be possessed of all the measures that
led to this most extraordinary and wholly unprecedented
The king's message, together with the order in council, were
scheme to aid our finance — a scheme which no man could
ordered to be taken into consideration to-morrow.
think of without shuddering.
With regard to what the right honourable gentleman had
stated of the propriety of aiding the security of' the bank
Felnntaly 28.
notes, by pledging the faith of government to them, there
appeared to him nothing objectionable in such a proposition..
111r. Pitt moved, " That a committee be appointed to examine
and state the total amount of outstanding demands on the bank
But there -were in the minister's speech some general words
of England, and likewise of the funds for discharging the same,
which -might be differently understood by different persons.
and to report the result thereof to the House, together with their
If he thought that bank notes should be made legal tenders
°Pinion on the necessity of providing for the confirmation and
cont
for public purposes, there might be but little, if any, difficulty
inuance of measures taken in pursuance of the minute of
in assenting to his proposition. But these were very general
e°11461; on the 26th instant." The motion being read,
words, capable of being differently understood by different
persons. If the minister meant to make bank notes legal
, Mr. Pox rose and said: — Sir, when I consider the won-
payment from individuals to the public, that was a point liable
(2erful event which has this night been announced to the
of course to discussion, but against which he did not see the
.-louse for a second time; when I take into review. the causes
same objection as if he took the question in another -viewl
Which have led to this extraordinary situation of affairs, and
for it would be only matter of policy to a limited expelice'
tie effects likely to result from it; I confess that after the
Pause
But if he meant to make bank notes legal payment from till
Which has been afforded me for deliberation, I do not
tait. all
public to the individual, if' such a measure, he said,
la
feel More sanguinely or more agreeably than I did on
cou
'e
become necessary, it was a measure -which 'the House
first mention of the subject. The right honourable gen-
yr.
290 STOPPAGE OF CASH PAYMENTS AT THE BANK. Reb.2g.
STOPPAGE OF CASH PAYMENTS AT THE BANK.
.i
1797* 29 1
tleman has moved for the appointment of a committee for the
„tit), be said, that such a power would be equally dangerous
purpose of inquiry, to which, if it was vested with s
power,
in an y branch of the legislature. But surely the danger is
sufficiently ample, I certainly should not object. But it
greater from the quarter in which it has now been exercised.
might have been expected, and I for one did expect, that
has been found that wherever a power of this nature has
the minister, who had conducted affairs in such a manlier a,
been confided to a senate, or to a large body of men, it has
to call for the measure that has now been proposed, wouiti
resented fewer instances of abuse, than in those situations
not have been contented to pass so slightly over the nature
where the reverse has been the case. This conclusion is sup-
of the crisis; but would have thought it incumbent on him
ported by the recorded facts of history, and the uniform tes-
to have given, at least, some general statement of those cit.-
timony of experience. It has been proved that the stability
cumstances which have led to that situation of unprecedented
of credit has always been better maintained in republics, than
embarrassment, in which we are now placed. Let us con-
in those governments where it merely depended on an indivi-
sidcr a little how he has proceeded, even in the first stage
dual, or on a small body of men. Of all modes, then, by
of the business. Every man who read the order of council
which the object could have been effected, the measure that
must have been struck with the reflection that this was
has actually been adopted is the most pernicious in its prin-
the first time a measure had been adopted by the executive
ciple and the most dangerous in its consequences. It will riot •
government of this country to prevent the bank from an-
be easily erased from the memories of men, or from the annals
swering the demands of its lawful creditors. The effect
of the country, that whatever may be the vaunted theory of
of the measure I will not describe by saying that it has
our constitution, whatever the nominal value of our rights,
impaired — for that is but a weak word on such an occa-
whatever the pretended security of our laws, one word from
sion — I contend that it has destroyed the credit of the
the king may have the effect to destroy one half of the pro-
bank. There is no gentleman so ignorant of the principles
perty of the country. The order of council merely forbids
of paper credit, as not to know, that the whole source of the
the issuing of money; the paper, however, subsequently pub-
validity of this species of currency is derived from the circum-
lished from the bank, removes all doubts with respect to the
stance of its being convertible into gold and silver. But when
nature and extent of the measure, and thanks arc due to the
we learn, that ministers have not merely recommended to the
directors for the explicitness they have manifested on the oc-
bank to suspend all payments in specie, but have positively
casion. After expressing their intention to comply with the
required them to adopt this measure, we must consider our•
order of council, they proceed to point out the objects which
selves as placed in a very different situation with respect to
the measure has in view. They declare that they will con-
the fixture state of our paper credit. If the thing itself was
tinue their discounts to the merchants in paper, and that they
necessary from the circumstances of the times, still I do not
Will also pay in paper the dividend warrants. Gentlemen
approve of the mode in which it has been carried into exe-
may ascribe it to affectation, when I declare that I feel ner-
cution. If the measure was indispensably requisite from the
vous in stating the probable effect of this proceeding; and
pressing exigency of the country, an act of parliament was
the more so, as I observed that the right honourable gentle-
surely the only proper mode of effecting the purpose. If
man,
f
wh? has
s certainly more cause than myself to take a
plea of urgency be brought forward, that was a consideration
fearful i
i
u theres in the issue of this transaction, seemed to ex-
on which the House were competent to decide, and which
perience a similar feeling to so great a degree, that he was
must have impelled them, as in other cases, to lose no time ID
Unable to use his splendid abilities to afford to the House any
carrying a bill through the different stages. This House. ivg-
satisfactory explanation of its objects and effects.
that particular branch of the legislature, which it was of
What, I ask, is the meaning of this measure ? Though it
most essential importance to consult on such an occasion;
has been declared by repeated laws, that faith is most solemnly
The neglect that has taken place in this instance is of thein°t
to lie kept with the public creditors, though you honourably
mischievous example, and may be attended with the rot
declare that you will impose no tax on the interest they hold
fatal consequences at a future period. All those who ho'
in the stocks ; you now so strongly feel the exigency of your
o
turned their attention to the paper credit of this conatr.C;
Situation, that you are compelled to overlook the covenants
must view with alarm, that the king or executive governme,,
and the
to u ie .obligations of honour, and to apply for a re-.
so .
have by the present measure claimed a power to annihilate pit
g
reat depot of national wealth. But it may be
one breath all the property of the creditors of the bank.
"id that
1-• •
a the dividends are still to be paid in paper. Is there,
zl 2
292
[Febt:,
STOPPAGE OF CASH PAYMENTS AT THE BANK.
]
,;, STOPPAGE OF CASII PAYMENTS AT THE BANK.
2093
however, any gentleman so ignorant as to conceive that there
With the feelings naturally impressed upon me by these re-
is any difference between refusing to pay the dividends in
flections, I yesterday came down to the House. I must own
specie, and refusing to pay them altogether? Are not tht,
that I did not then like some words that fell from the right
terms of the contract, that they shall be paid in the current
honourable gentleman with respect to the order of council.
coin of the kingdom? With what pretence can you affinn
A motion for inquiry is brought forward. The order evi-
that you do not tax the income of the stock-holder, if van
dently threw some slur on the bank, and as a proof that they
break the terms of the contract, and compel him to take foe
felt so, the directors immediately published a paper which
his interest a compensation of less value than that which ho
contained an assurance of the prosperous state of their affairs.
been stipulated by solemn, engagement? Does any mana
Under these circumstances, it was natural and laudable that
lieve that he would receive at the present moment in the 04,
they should feel an anxiety fir that inquiry, which was neces-
a thousand pounds in cash for a thousand pounds in notes?
sary to vindicate their own credit. Another reason assigned
You admit, then, that you are arrived at such a state of de-
for the inquiry is, that the public are to be called upon to
speration, that it becomes necessary to violate all contracts,
guarantee the security of the bank notes. On the first sug-
Suppose the dividends were confided to ministers to pay the
gestion, I did not see any thing objectionable in granting this
expellees of the army or navy, and that they gave to the
guarantee. As I have since, however, altered my opinion, it
holders certain paper on government security, would they be
may be proper for me to say a few words on the subject.
placed in the same situation as before with respect to the sta-
Every sanction given by the public to the credit of individuals,
bility of public credit? So far as regarded the principle, mi-
though for a time it may be attended with some advantage,
nisters might as well at once confiscate their property for*
will ultimately be found to be injurious and destructive. If
use of the state. But it has been said, that emergencies will
the credit of the bank rests on that footing of solidity which
arise, which render it necessary to break through all ordinary
has been asserted, it is better that it should still remain on
restraint. Unquestionably, necessity furnishes that strong ar-
the same fbundation. The right honourable gentleman, how-
gument, to which no reason can be opposed; but it oughtto
ever, thinks that even with the favourable opinion which is
be proved, that the emergency was of the most pressing na-
now entertained by the public of the credit of the bank, there
ture, and capable of being clearly demonstrated. The mini-
would still be some advantage derived from the guarantee of
ster who comes down and endeavours to prove to the House,
the government. It is curious to bear from the right honour-
that necessity has compelled him to this fatal and irremediable
able gentleman this theory with respect to the advantages of
act of bankruptcy, ought at least to he prepared to skew that
guarantee. Happy would it have been for the country -if he
the necessity was occasioned by no fault of his own. Nothing
had not in former instances extended this system of guarantee
of this sort has been attempted; we have only the assertion of
to foreign powers. Without paying any compliment to the
the right honourable gentleman of the strong conviction be
bank orEngland, I think its credit fully as good as that of
felt of the necessity of the measure; and it is incumbent on
itihaevebalo
bank of Vienna. Without instituting any particular in-
the House to determine whether they ought to be satisfied 031
quiry, I think we might as safely guarantee its security, as the
the authority of his bare assertion that the danger has been
t
slelcetyiraitiy,e o
f some
princes, with respect to whom we
fully proved, and that it could by no precaution have possibly
means to ascertain either the obligations to which
been prevented. If we arc to be satisfied on such authority,
liable, or
oi the funds which they possess to discharge
if we are to conceive an assertion a sufficient ground of con-
them, and of whose good faith we are entirely ignorant.
fidence, what account shall we be able to give to our consti:
If I thought that the committee would be empowered to go
stuents of this new disaster that has befallen the country
Into all the causes which have led to this disastrous state of
Amidst the calamities and disgraces of former periods, we had
. frairs, I certainly should not desire that the inquiry should
still one ground of consolation in the sanctity of national ere'
be placed on a more extensive scale. The right honourable
dit: Every minister might say to parliament, and every
gentleman has, however, intimated that it is not his intention
member to his constituents, even at the most afflicting wrasle
that
•
the inquiry should be conducted in this manner. He
" the public faith has been preserved." The inviolability of
has stated that there are some points of peculiar delicacy con-
the principle sanctioned its future observance. But now we
nected with an investigation of the state of the bank, and the
are even deprived of this last source of public consolation,
disclosure of which would create great embarrassment. There
this last prop of national honour.
Is one distinction, however, to which it is material to attend,
IT 3
294 STOPPAGE OF CASH PAYMENTS AT THE BANK. [Feb. 2?,
STOPPAGE OF CASH PAYMENTS AT THE BANK. 295
While the credit of a corporation is entire, the public have
the subject of preserving faith with the public creditor, much
no right to pry into their secrets; nor is it fitting that they
of the prosperity of this country is owing. But am I, therefore,
should be matte matter of investigation ; but when once a
because they chuse to ask for it, to accede to measures that
failure has taken place, or a slur has been thrown upon its
arc wholly without a precedent, and that without under-
character, the best remedy for this unpleasant situation of its
standing that there is to be a full inquiry into all the con-
affairs, is to bring them into a state of the utmost publicity,
duct of those who, in my opinion, have brought our af-
When we hear, in the present instance, of some points of
Ors into their present condition ? therefore, say, that if
great delicacy, we must view them in comparison with those
the house of Commons should allow this committee to be
points of still greater delicacy which attach to this subject:
appointed, they will most scandalously abandon their duty, if
and in this light what exposure of the affitirs of the bank call
they confine their inquiry to what the chancellor of the ex-
possibly involve considerations pf greater delicacy than
chequer has this night stated. If the committee shall in-
measure which goes to the extent of violating the national
quire into the state of the outstanding engagements of the
faith, and invading the property of the public creditors?
bank, and what are their funds for providing for them, and
The House arc called to decide upon the merits of the whole
shall stop there, I say they will shamefully abandon their duty.
transaction. To assist them in forming their judgment, it is
They must not be content with any measure, merely because
necessary that all the concerns of the bank should be investi-
in the opinion of the minister it is right; no, nor even upon
gated. They ought to be enabled to pronounce how far the
finding that, in the opinion of the directors of the bank, that
measure has *been dictated by motives of imperious necessity:
it is right. It is your duty to examine the grounds upon
every circumstance which has been made known to the chan-
which these opinions are formed, and finally to form an opi-
cellor of the exchequer respecting the situation of the bank,
nion of your own. If ever there was a question in which
ought also to be made known to the committee : all the
confidence in ministers should be placed out of view alto-
grounds on which he has been induced to publish the order
gether, it is this very case. Let us look at the case, and see
of council, ought to be laid before them : it is only from such
what sort of a thing it is. Is it a case of treaty upon peace or
full infbrmation that they. can be enabled correctly to judge of
war? Is it a case of negotiation ? No ; it is a case of finance,
the conduct pursued on the occasion. The nature of the case
and finance merely— a subject which at all times has be-
is such as immediately to demand the most particular inves-
longed, and belonged almost exclusively to this House —
tigation. For though there were eight members of the cabi-
subject which, from its nature, is best considered in a public
net present at the council from which the order was issued,
assembly. MTill the minister himself' get up this night and say,
it is to be remarked that the responsibility chiefly attaches to
that administration are, on the face of things, exculpated for
one individual—the chancellor of the exchequer. Upon the
every thing that has lately happened to the financial concerns
representation of the chancellor of the exchequer of the un-
of this country ? MTill he say, that they have been punctual in
usual demand for specie, and the danger of a scarcity of that
the discharge of their duty upon that subject, and that it is
article for the purposes of the public service, was the measure
not owing to them that we are in our present deplorable con-
adopted. Let me beg of you not to imitate the blind confi-
dition ? Is it not notorious that the prizes of the last lottery
dence of the lords of the council, and bestow your appr o
were delayed in payment for• a considerable time? Has not
-bation on the mere representation of the necessity of the mea-
the public creditor thereby suffered? Has not the public credit
sure, but to have before you all the facts and arguments con-
of the nation been thereby diminished ? I-have not bills on
nected with the transaction, and to draw your conclusion
government been protested ; have not the holders been
from a full and impartial investigation.
iciliitil:toldthat they must wait for a considerable time; and
The minister tells us, that he would not have taken the
they not been obliged so to wait? Most unquestionably
measure without feeling the strongest conviction of its neoes;
they have. And the reason assigned for all this delay in pay-
sity. He insinuates that the same conviction was experience°
meat, has been fashionably called, the want of a sufficient cir-
by the bank directors. Of the excellent conduct of the bank
, medium,
but which, in truth, only proved our insol-
of England, I have not the least doubt ; that many circuniT
ve,noy, and the inability of the minister to fulfil the promises
stances in that conduct are highly meritorious, I do not deny'
\\Mich he so readily held forth. All his new schemes of
still less should I think of denying that to the excellent conduct
finance have only contributed to bring on the evil which he
of administration, from time to time, since the'revolution,q°11
has f roze: time to time pretended to remove. Is it not noto-
I0
It 4
296 STOPPAGE OF CASH PAYMENTS AT THE BANK. [Feb. 2g.
1;97,71 STOPPAGE OF CASH PAYMENTS AT THE BANK. 297
rious that he has rejected all the advice that has been gieeli
examine the real state of public affairs, control the executive
to him from time to time? He pretended to do away all the
power, and institute minute inquiry, into all the circumstances
evils that arose from the increase of our• unfunded debt, evils
that have led to the calamitous condition in which we are
which we all felt, and for which certainly a remedy was tie.
new placed. We must take care that the man who has brought
cessary. But what was the effect of his pretended remedy,
us into this deplorable state shall not be permitted totally to
and what has been the result of his conduct since he pretended
ruin us. If we do not do so, the most candid manner in which
•
to provide against the mischief? Why, that he has so mis..
we can act towards the public is, to declare at once that we
calculated the wants of government, or from time to time se
are persuaded the care of this country is grown above-the.
mistated them, that he has been obliged to provide for the
cognizance of the House of Commons, and that we chuse to
sum of twelve millions, after assuring us that no farther
give it up entirely to the direction of the king's Ministers; in
money would be wanted for the funding of the navy debt;
-which case we shall plead guilty to all the charges that have
and after all these assurances from time to time, that he was
been exhibited out of doors against us; that we are not the
making ample provision, the navy bills at this very time are
representatives of the people of England, but the servants of
at a higher discount than they were at any former period.
the minister of the crown; that it is true, indeed, the theory
Sir, I come now to another point. The directors of the
of the constitution of England is beautiful, but that its prac-
bank often told the right honourable gentleman what the ef-
tical utility is at an end, as far as regards the thnctions of the
fect-would be of his sending such vast sums of money abroad.
House of Commons, for that now they implicitly commit to
They remonstrated against such conduct. I will not enter
the minister of the crown all control over subjects of finance.
upon the detail of the advice that was given to him at these
Let me ask, if this must not be the inevitable conclusion of
times ; but we all know, and now feel the effect of, his con-
the people of this country, if you do not enter upon a full in-
duct ; for he sent money abroad, not only in defiance of the
quiry into this subject ? Let me ask, if this be not a case for
remonstrance of the bank, bet against the spirit and letter of
inquiry, what case can possibly be called so? Let me ask, what
the constitution. Such has been the conduct of the chan-
case can be more violent, and less warrantable by law than the
cellor of the exchequer; and I do say, we are now called
present? Let me ask, if ever since the Revolution there was pro-
upon, by the duty we owe the public, to give no farther credit
posed a measure more fraught with danger to the credit of this
to him for his statements in any public affair of finance; more
country ? Let me ask, if any minister ever existed who had
especially upon the subject which is now before us. It
less claim to confidence, and whose conduct called more for
is a subject on which this House ought not to place confi-
the jealousy of this House than the present minister? If,
dence in any minister, because it is a subject which we ought
after you have turned these questions in your minds, and have
most scrupulously to examine for ourselves. If the best me--
agreed what answer ought to be given to them all, you still
nister that ever managed the affairs of this country were to ask
confide in the present minister, I will then say you will de-
s
for confidence in such a case as this, it would be the duty of
erve every thing that has been said against you, for you will,
ifnundece
this House to withhold it. If the right honourable gentle-
ticobnsbteo theIaI-ouse of -Commons that has surrendered . all its
man's father, in the course of the seven years' war, 'when his
will of the minister of the crown.
measures led to the most brilliant victories, had come to this
There has been a custom, I confess a very laudable one, to
House to demand such confidence as the minister seems to
speak well of the navy. It certainly is a service to which the
ask by the speech which introduced the motion which is now
People of this country are prodigiously indebted, and we catt-
before you, I believe, that notwithstanding all the esteem
not have too much tenderness for the character of our naval
which that illustrious statesman deservedly enjoyed, the p ar
°Ricers, and yet we find it to be the uniform practice of this
co
-liament would then have had virtue enough to refuse it to
untry tocall to a court martial every officer who has been
:fnsucc
him ; but he' had too much regard for the constitutional pri-
iessful to a certain extent, however meritorious his con-
ail t
vileges of this House, to ask ter such a confidence. - hat,
may
tt have been. Now let me ask, if this be the case with
regard
however, would have been denied to the virtue, the wisdom,
•te rcl to our favourite service, what should be the conduct
the eloquence, the glory of that minister, had he asked it, Is
s ouse when the minister of the crown has been guilty
mism
now, I fear, to be given to a minister who has disgraced hinr
anagement M. an alarming degree ? What should be
the co
self, and ruined his co
re,
untry. The House, if,it means to ha
nduct of this House when a minister issues a in oclam-
4611
any credit with the people, must not confide in an y man, bill
in the name of the privy council to destroy the public
298 STOPPAGE or CASH PAYMENTS AT THE BANK. [Feb.2$.
STOPPAGE OF CASH PAYMENTS AT THE BANK. 299
1
119.]
credit of this country? Let me ask what should be the con,
struck unavoidably at the public credit, yet what happened in
duct of a House of Commons towards him who is at least
the House of Commons ? That in pursuance of a full inquiry
prima facie a culprit before them and the public, — who is
it was found to be an act of inevitable necessity, and could not
certainly in the situation of an accused person ? I think it is
have happened under any other plea? No ; it passed upon
not difficult to answer these questions. If there are any who
the assertion of the minister that it was an act of necessity, and
hear me who think that I say this from personal rivalship,
there was no inquiry; therefore some future minister may be
they are welcome to charge me with it; they do not know ray
wicked, although the present one is virtuous, and may take
nature; those who do, will bring no such charge against me.
this as a precedent, and call that inevitable necessity, which,
If, however, to charge a criminal minister, in order that an in,
m truth, will be only an act of convenience to hint, and un-
quiry may be made into his conduct, be a crime, then I am
der that pretext appropriate the property of the public cre-
content to be called a great criminal. Let me ask, w
ditor to the use of government ; so that without a full inquiry
is the credit of this nation, if a proclamation, dictated by a
into this matter, you can never restore confidence to the public
minister, is to set aside the provisions of solemn acts of par-
creditor. On the other hand, if this is the result of the mis-
liament ? Long, long experience has taught us, or should have
conduct of the minister, you should declare it to be so, and
taught us, that punctuality and good faith are the foundations
by the punishment of the delinquent shew the public you take
of credit ; that credit can have no existence independent of
care of their affairs. These are the only two ways in which
good faith. It has been said, more that once, that we are to
you can restore the confidence of the public creditor.
trust to Providence in our affairs. It would be a miracle
Let us now see what has been the conduct of the present
which I have never yet heard that Providence has performed
minister in the course of this war, upon the subject of finance.
towards man to give credit to those who have no fah. On
Have any three months passed in which he has not produced
the 27th of February r 797, for the first time since the Revo-
some new expedient? And have they not every one of them,
lution, an act was done in the king's name which has struck
without a single exception, proved erroneous ? Good God !
at the foundation of the public credit of the country, by'
Sir, let us look at the situation of this country ! Year after
seizing the money belonging to individuals, deposited in the
year the minister has been amusing us with his ideas of the
public treasury of the public creditor; and afterwards with-
finances of France — now on the -verge, now in the gulph of
holding and refusing payment of that money. What can now
bankruptcy! What computations upon their assignats and
restore that public credit? Will any man say he knows the
their niandats ! They could not possibly continue. All per-
remedy for this ? If it shall appear that ministers have acted
fectly true. But the misfortune is, that while he was thus
prudently, according to the pressure of the case; that they
amusing us, he has led us to the very same verge, aye,; into
acted wisely ; that they have acted economically; that they
the very same gulph. While he thus declaimed against the
looked forward to all the consequences, as far as human pru-
finances of France, and predicted truly as to the issue of those
dence could foresee—then I am willing to allow there is Be
expedients, lie fell miserably short of his conclusion, that these
man can blame them, however calamitous our condition may
considerations would put an end to the energy of the French.
be. If they can shew, contrary to the prime.; facie evidence
Their rash expedients have not put an end to their energy ;
of the case, that they have not been to blame, they must be
and, perhaps, these rash expedients will not make us a prey to
absolved ; but that is no reason why we should not have a
a foreign invader. But, arc we to follow their expedients on
full inquiry into the matter: on the contrary, it is a very
that account ? By no means. We are not in the same rela-
strong reason for su,:h inquiry ; and they themselves are
tive situation with regard to the rest of the world. We de-
deeply interested in having it instituted. But, if it should
dead more upon our commercial credit than they do. The
appear that this crisis has not been brought on without Olt
minister has conducted the war upon the hope, that we should
on their part, it must be absolutely for the credit of the public
be able to defeat the French by a contest of finance; and you
that the truth of the matter should be made manifest to the
see the expedients to which we are driven. I am aware
,fiat
,
world. If you shun this inquiry, what will be the. conse-
oat I may be answered, that I propose my panacea, — an in-
quence ? I will suppose, for the sake of argument, that the,
quiry- I plead guilty to that charge ; but my panacea has
whole of this measure is the result of inevitable necessity„'
Meyer been tried ;the minister's opposition to it has been tried
i
l;epe
wish, then, to know what the public creditor is to think. Pe
atedly; namely, confidence in him. The public have seen
Itle
will deliberate thus Although in the year 17 9 7 the mitOq
effect of that opposition. All I ask is, that my remedy
300
MR. HARRISON'S MOTION FOR THE [March I
1797:21
REDUCTION Or USELESS PLACES, &c,
301
may be tried ; it can never be worse than his. 'We have for
MY. Fox said, that having been personally alluded to in the
a long time had a confiding House of Commons. I want now
course of the debate, and challenged to vindicate his con-
an inquiring House of Commons. I say, that with a diligent,
sistency in supporting the present motion, with his conduct in
inquiring House of Commons, even although it should be an
,/7 8 2 , he found himself called upon to make a few observa-
indifferent one with regard to talents, and with a minister of
tions in his own defence. There were also a few general
very ordinary capacity, we shall be able to do more for tile
positions which the right honourable gentleman opposite to
service of the people of this country, than with a House of
him (Mr. Windham) had laid down, on which he wished to
Commons composed of the best talents that ever adorned any
make some yemarks. The right honourable gentleman repro-
senate, and a minister of the first abilities would be able to, if
bated, in strong terms, the expedient of having recourse to
that House should implicitly confide in that minister. If;
the property of private individuals in time of public calamity.
therefore, I have, in an uniform tone, called for inquiry, and
Ele admitted the principle in its full extent, and agreed with
the House has been as persevering, as certainly it hitherto
him, that any encroachment upon the rights of private pro-
has in confiding, it is not wonderful that we are in our present
perty under pretence of public necessity, led to nothing short
condition. I say, that without inquiry into the cause of our
of a system of universal plunder and depredation. But, iii
calamities, the public neither will nor ought to be satisfied. I
the name of God, how .vas this general principle applicable to
say farther, that the House ought, for the sake of its credit with
the present ease ? He had almost imagined that the right ho-
the public, to enter into a full inquiry upon this matter, for
nourable gentleman was answering a speech containing some
the authority of an inquiring is much greater than that of a
proposition to rob the Duke of Bedford of the property
which his ancestors -
confiding House of Commons.
had received from Henry VIII., or to
despoil the Duke of Grafton or the Duke of Richmond of
Mr. Sheridan moved an amendment to Mr. Pitt's motion, by in.
the possessions which their forefathers had received from
Charles II. The right honourable gentleman contended,
sertin ,, after the word " House," the words, " and also to inquire
into the causes which have produced the order of council, of the
that he had as good, or a better title to his salary as secretary
26th instant." The question being put, that these words be there
at war, than lie had to the rents of his paternal estates. This,
inserted, the House divided :
Mr. Fox said, he would not admit ; for if a motion was
Tellers.
Tellers.
made in that House to address his majesty to remove the
S Mr. Grey
I Mr. Douglas
right honourable gentleman from his counsels — a motion for
YEAS
86.--;—Nozs
Rose
t Mr, Whitbread
which he would certainly vote —it could not be argued, that
he was guilty of the same injustice as if he addressed his
majesty to deprive him of his landed property. And if the
principle did not apply to his removal from office, it could
not be applicable to a diminution of the income belonging to
that office. There was no connection, then, between the ge-
MR. Hmta,xsoises MOTION FOR THE REDUCTION Or USE-
neral principle, and the instance to which it was attempted to
LESS PLACES, SINECURE OFFICES, &c.
he applied. The question was, whether, in the present calami-
tous state of the country, the emoluments of offices of every de-
March 13.
scription ought not to be retrenched as much as possible for the
good of the public ? Upon this statement of the question,
77-1HIS day Mr. Harrison moved, " That the extent of the supplies
there was but little difficulty. Butit
voted to government since the commencement of the present.
was said, that he could
war, having caused so heavy an increase of taxes, it is the duty of
not accede to the present proposition, because in 1782 he was
this House to inquire, whether some relief to the burdens of the
as much pledged not to go farther than the limits of Mr.
people, or provision for farther expence, may not be obtained by
B urke's bill, as he was pledged to go that len
gth. He asked
the reduction of useless places, sinecure offices, exorbitant fee:
the right honourable gentleman, whether he recollected the
and other modes of retrenchment in the expenditure of the public
contents of Mr. Burke's bill ? Was there not something in
money." The motion was supported by Lord William Russell,
It a
r
bout exchequer offices and crown lands ? But it was well
Mr. Sheridan, Mr. Pollen, Mr. Bastard, Mr. Fox, and Mr. Tie
known, that it never had its full effect, and that the plan, on
-ney ; and opposed by Mr. Pitt, Mr. Windham] Mr. Rose, 3111:,1
-4ccount of the -.ehort duration of what was commonly called
Serjeant Adair, and Dr, Laurence.
[M,
tot
MR. HARRISON'S MOTION FOR THE
arch 1 3
REDUCTION OF USELESS PLACES, &C.
303
1797•]
the coalition administration, was only partially executed. B Lit
alter his sentiments without deserting any general princi-
supposing, for a moment, that it had been executed up to die
ple. Indeed, there were arrangements which ought to be
full intention of its authors, was no allowance to be made for
Mated so much by the circumstances of the times, that he
regu •
a change of times and circumstances? Had not a greater
shoul d have no objection that an inquiry of the nature now
portion of influence been since created than was then de_
proposed should take place every ten or twelve years. When
stroyed ? And if it was urged, that new offices were occa.
lie heard of the splendour necessary to a court, and of the
sioned by the necessities of the times, why were not offices
dignity which it was proper to support in high situations, he
that were less necessary abolished in proportion to the new
was ready to acknowledge, that in certain circumstances that
ones that were created ? The right honourable gentleman
splendour and that dignity might be proper and becoming
asserted, that, as a pecuniary resource, all the saving which
bu t in times such as these, when public credit was fallen,
would arise from any retrenchment that could be made would
when commerce was fast decaying, and when the nation were
be extremely trifling. The saving arising from Mr. Burke's
groaning under a load of taxes which they were scarcely able
bill also was trifling in amount. But the advantage was not
t
eai
then they became insults upon the people ; and in
support, the
to be calculated by merely a sum of nood. or too,coa,
authority, instead of affecting gaiety and
which might be directly saved. It ought to be recollected,
s(sject,111:the rulers of the nation ought to manifest the same
that it might be the means of saving ninny millions to the
symptoms of mortification and distress which pervaded the
public, and of preserving not only the independence of the
community. The right honourable gentleman contended,
House of Commons, but the independence of the coun-
that the idea of retrenchment was a vulgar error, and that
try. The right honourable gentleman did not dispute the
pensions were bestowed as the reward of merit. If it was a
calamitous state of the country, but he looked at only one
vulgar error, the vulgar ought to be undeceived; and with
side of the calamity ; he only looked at the extension of the
respect to pensions being given as the reward of merit, he
French territory, forgetting altogether the situation of its
would appeal for the refutation of the doctrine to the history
internal credit. He forgot that it was the means of influence
of modern times, where the right honourable gentleman would
which were in the hands of ministers that had contributed to
find that they had been bestowed upon men merely on ac-
the enormous territorial aggrandizement of France ; that had
count of their subserviency to a faction, of which the right
it not been for this influence, the Republic of France would
honourable gentleman once held the same opinion that he
not have had Brabant, would not have had Italy, and
(Mr. Fox) still entertained of them. Mr. Fox here adverted
that the right honourable gentleman would not now have had
to the sinecures of Mr. Pitt and Lord Grenville, with which
reason to lament the extent of her dominions. To prove
they had provided themselves when they were loading the
that ministerial influence obtained in the House of Commons,
people with an accumulated weight of burdens ; and also to
Mr. Fox appealed to the authority of Mr. Burke, in that pas-
the arrangement in the secretary of state's office, by which
sage of his Thoughts on a Regicide Peace where he intimates
Mr. Aust was removed from the situation he there held, though
a suspicion, that the minority in the House of Commons,
he was eminently qualified for holding it, and at a time of
express the sense of the majority of the country. And to
life when he was as fit for business as ever he had been, merely
:11:
i
what was this to be ascribed ? Was it not to the places, pew,
provide for
o.
Mr. Canning,
who could not do the business
sions, commissions, and all the various kinds of patronag e 01
of the office till he was instructed in it by Mr. Aust.
which ministers were in possession ? It had been asked, 'wile'
Air. Fox then proceeded to a topic a little more difficult
then he supposed that there were no other principles of public
and nice. The rioht honourable gentleman had appealed to
conduct but those that were founded upon corruption? Ile
tether he believed that his conduct was influenced by
admitted that there were gentlemen who acted upon t o
corrupt motives? He certainly believed that his conduct, as
S
-tally different principles ; but he contended, that this was
well as the conduct of those with whom he had been ac-
cu
a very general and very powerful spring of action. This 09
stomed to act, was influenced by motives very different
a topic nearly connected with the exchequer offices, which, 111
from those of venality, but he confessed that it had been such
stm
• his opinion, at the death of the present incumbents, ough t t°
agly to induce suspicion of their motives, and that the
be entirely abolished. If he was asked, how he had come ra
would not, perhaps, give ,
non
them so much credit for
Honesty
change his opinion upon this subject since , 1782, he wo°'
esty as he did. He here referred to a sentiment in one of
-At
'Ir. B
answer, that it was one of those topics on which a man rillv
urke's publications, in which he states, that when men
MOTION ON THE STATE OF IRELAND.
3 04
min HARRISON'S MOTION FOR THE
[March /3.
I797 .3
305
God ! had not the House even yet had enough of his mea-
swerve from those principles upon which they used to act, and
c.ures? If they were not yet tired of them, they might
leave those parties to which they were formerly attached, they
'
wake trial of a few more. The right honourable gentleman
often deceive themselves respecting their motives, and when
they fall into a state of the lowest insignificance, they some,
was afraid that the present proposition would delude the pub-
lic. But he would put it to the House, whether the public
times flatter themselves that they never stood on so high
ground. Were he flow to state his opinion of his noble friem
were more likely to be &hided by an open discussion of the
subject, or by a committee which was appointed by him who
( Lord William Russell) who bad been referred to in the
bad spent his whole life in delusion. To delude them into an
course of the debate, of his clear consistency of character, of
expense of seven or eight millions was nothing, but to lead
his high and nice sense of honour, and above all, of his stea,
them to hope for a little saving in the public expenditure
diners of character, and even were he to be asked, whether
would be an incurable evil ! Mr. Fox warned the House
he had not at one time as high an opinion of others from
against the influence of such argument, and against
Whom he now differed, he would answer, certainly he had:
'' leav-
ioer the inquiry to the committee which had been balloted;
nor would be be more surprized at any change in the semi--
for he did not know the members who composed the
meats of his noble friend than he had been at the difference of
committee, he knew, that if it was formed by the minister, it
sentiments between the author of the work, entitled " The
was formed for the purposes of delusion.
Causes of the present Discontents" and of those who signed
the resolutions of 3784, and the opinions which they at pre-
Mr. Pitt having moved the previous question, the House divided
sent professed to hold. A distrust of public men was one
thereon :
among others of the lamentable effects of the present war., ,
Tellers.
Tellers.
The right honourable gentleman had said, that the labourer
I Mr. St. John
X> AS
{Mr. Canning}
was worthy of his hire, and that the servants of the public
77.- NOES
Mr. Tierney
Mr. Sargent
were not overpaid. He had no objection to the servants of
Harrison's motion was consequently lost.
the public being handsomely rewarded ; nay, he for one
would go so far as to say, that wherever a man had a legal
right to a place, however that right was acquired, he should
1:4•10.11=0n11=•1971•1•1Pal•••••1111IFNI
not be for disturbing him in the possession of it. But if the
labourer was to be paid, why did not Mr. Cowper, who did
the duty, receive the salary of clerk to the House of Lords?
Ma. Fox's MOTION ON THE STATE OF IRELAND.
Why did an honourable gentleman opposite to him (Mr. Rose,)
receive the salary, and as if that were not enough, secure the
March 23,
reversion to his son ? It was most scandalous and enormous!
When he said this, however, if he had got a legal grant of it,
he would not deprive him of it. All he wanted was, that the
IN pursuance of the notice lie had given,
reversions should be saved to the public. Mr. Fox said, he
Mr. Fox rose and addressed the House in substance as
did not approve of the mode of assigning the inquiry to 3
follows : — The business, Sir, which I am about to bring be-
committee already balloted for. But even supposing that it
fore the House, is one not only of great importance in its na-
was to be referred to this committee, was that any reason
ture, but of great urgency in point of time. It is not my
why the 'House should not agree to the proposition of his he,
Wish to go at length into all the causes that have produced
nourable friend ? They would then be pledged to dip coun-
the uneasiness that exists in Ireland, and which has created
try to make retrenchments wherever they could, consistently
a similar uneasiness here; but I do think it necessary to recur
with the public interest and the public honour. But, in plain
to a period somewhat distant from the present, in order to
language, the chancellor of the exchequer wished that it
?N.-Able the House to form an accurate opinion upon the sub-
should rather be done by him than by the House of Commons,
ject, and to induce them to accede to the motion which it is
in the same way that he had insisted, that when advances
1'V intention to submit to them. Sir, in the year 1782, very
were to be made to the bank, it should be done at his 01
P'eat discontents existed in Ireland, and it appeared to me to
instance, and not upon a resolution of that House. C4°°"
''e indispensably necessary, that every thing should be done,
lion. Yr.
3 06
MR. FOX'S MOTION ON
[March 21
THE STATE OF IRELAND.
,97.]
307
on the part of the government, to appease and allay them,
how far, in consequence of the concessions which have
re,
With this view I proposed the recognition of the, complete
on made to Ireland, she has, in fact and in substance, en-
independence of Ireland It is not now of importance io
oyed the advantages of an independent legislature; whether,
consider whether that recognition was a boon or a right. it
n that form of a free cdnstitution which they obtained, the
not necessary for me to discuss whether it was a right de
people possess that political weight to which they are entitled
manded by justice, or a boon required by policy. But having
i nd whether their just voice and influence have been pro-
been the person who proposed that act, I consider myself
noted by the alteration which was effected ? Other points
bound to follow up the principle of it, which was to make Ire.
here may b
perhaps, nearly as important; but these cer-
ta
land a free and independent country; and, above all, to adopt
creobjec
ts of most essential consideration. In viewing
such measures as are calculated to admit her to the enjoyment
the i nhabitants of Ireland, we find that a very great pro-
of all the advantages of that independence, and to restore that
portion, about five-sixths, as it has generally been calculated,
cordial affection between the two countries, so eminently*
are Roman catholics. It is true that considerable concessions
quisitc to the preservation and prosperity of both. To those
h ave been made in their favour, and several of the grievances
who consider the recognition as a right, and still more to
under which they laboured have apparently been removed.
those who view it as a boon, it may seem not a little extraor-
The question, however, is, whether in point of fact, these
•inary, after a conduct so just and liberal on the part of this
concessions have tended to remove dissatisfaction, and to
country, that, from the period of 1782, there have been
conciliate attachment? If upon inquiry it shall appear, that
growing scenes of dissatisfaction and discontent in that couu•
the mode in which these concessions were made, and the acts
try, and that at this moment Ireland is in a condition at
of the executive power with which they were accompanied,
which no man can look without the deepest alarm. In my
have produced the severest persecutions of a political nature,
opinion, therefore, the parliament of Great Britain is natu-
those who do not mistake paper regulations and theoretical
rally called upon to inquire, how it has happened that those
privileges for practical government, will be convinced that
concessions have not produced all the salutary consequences
the
grounds of discontent of the Roman catholics have not
that might have been expected from them, and it is on that
been redressed, and that they have been kept in a situation
account that I think it the duty of this House, and my own
worse than that in which they previously stood. These are
duty in particular, to direct the attention of the British legis-
the principal points which the inquiry must embrace : but
:attire to the present state of the sister kingdom.
there are others unconnected with the state of the catholics.
Sir, without entering into particulars, no man will deny
The inhabitants of the northern part of Ireland are by some
that the situation of Ireland, at the present moment, is one
considered in a less favourable light, and their grounds of
of great peril ; it appears by late accounts that we are
complaint are heard with a less favourable ear. The dis-
commencing a system of rigour, occasioned by what some
of no class of men whatever ought to be viewed with
u
consider as discontents, and others the disaffection that at
t at repugnance which precludes an impartial examination ;
present subsist among the people — to that situation it be-
and I cannot much admire the wisdom of those by whom
comes us to advert, and by wise counsels to provide such
such prejudices are adopted as rules of conduct. ihe dis-
remedies as the circumstances of the case may require. la
contents of the inhabitants of the northern parts of Ireland
such an important situation we ought to approach the throne
‘co
arinsteef
causes : one of them is the temporary pressure
with that advice which may be calculated to avert the -danger
of a war, in which they were involved without interest in the
which threaten, and to remedy the distractions which prevail.
s; and the
d the distresses which the calamities with which it
It is sufficient for this purpose to shew that Ireland is 11.1
has been attended have entailed upon their trade and corn-
state of disturbance and discontent, and it is material to In'
nieree ; the other has been the abuses which they conceived to
quire how this situation of things has been occasioned. Al"
exist M the constitution by which they are governed. The
though a variety of circumstances have combined to produce,
constitution of Ireland, they complain, does not resemble
this state, there are two or three leading points to which.'
that cif Great Britain ; they have not a legislature by which
propose chiefly to direct the attention of the House. 1 he'e
the people are even virtually represented ; and as to political
,
hel ty, they enjoy as small a portion of it as those who live
uncle ,
„
monarchies, in which the principles of freedom have
* See Vol. ii. p.49.
'lever been introduced.
X 2
3
THE STATE OF IRELAND.
3o9
;91•
308
MR. Fox's MOTION ON
[March 23.
As to the first point, the efficacy of the recognition in
were considered at that time in Ireland was this: " You have
82, an opinion prevails in Ireland, that whatever may have
.ranted us," said the people, "an independent legislature,
7
been the intention with which that measure was adopted, it
ird
aenpendent certainly of your parliament, but dependent
upOn our executive cr
has not, produced a free and independent legislature, but that
your
overnment." The concession, there-
'the advantages which the form of a free constitution seemed
fore, they viewed not as a blessing, but as a mockery and an
to promise, have been counteracted by the influence of the
insult.
executive government and of the British cabinet. It would
Another proof of this substantial dependence upon the
be fortunate if this were merely the language of discontent.;
executive government, was evinced in the manner in which
it would be fortunate if this were an opinion not supported
the demands of the catholics had at different times been
treated. Their first petition merely prayed for a remedy to
'by that unequivocal confirmation it has derived from the
some
measures of government; it would be fortunate if the system
of the most oppressive grievances under which they
which has been uniformly acted upon, did not give to the
laboured, and in the humblest style solicited indulgence and
complaint so much countenance and validity. 'Without going
concession. An immense majority of the House of Com-
into particular details, it is impossible not to mention a few
mons were not content with refusing the desire of the petition,
of the most striking events which establish its truth. At the
but they resolved to fix upon it a mark of particular insult,
by
time of the unfortunate event of his majesty's indisposition,
voting its rejection. In this haughty and insulting vote
the legislature of Ireland took a very decided part; the
every member under the influenoe of government concurred.
parliament of Ireland censured the lord lieutenant for the
The very next session, however, when the war was begun,
conduct lie had pursued, and expressed a decided opinion on
and when a more conciliatory conduct was deemed prudent,
the state of public affairs at that period. Immediately after
a petition, comprehending claims much more extensive, ob-
this, however, and during the administration of the same
tained a reception very different from their former modest
lord lieutenant, a great accession of influence was gained by
pretensions. The crown recommended the claim, and. the
the crown, and the parliament was prevailed upon to unsay
same ministers who had caused it to be indignantly rejected,
all they had said, and to retract every opinion they had given..
now carried the vote by which pretensions far more import-
ant were sanctioned. Of this opposite conduct which
It is even matter ,pf notoriety, too, that a regular system was
the
then devised for enslaving Ireland. A person of high con-
executive government thus displayed, I most certainly approve
sideration was known to say, that half a million of money
the latter part; but it is not as deserving approbation that I
had been expended to quell an opposition in Ireland, and
now insist upon it, but I mention it to chew that it is not the
re
that as much more must be expended to bring the legislature
presentation of a factious declaimer, that it is not mere cant
of that country to a proper temper. This systematic plan of
and nonsense, to assert that the independence of the Irish
legislature is a delusion, and that their freedom vanishes be-
corruption was followed up by a suitable system of measures.
It was asserted, and offered to be proved in the Irish par-
fore the breath of the minister. How, in fact, can the people
liament, by men of the first character and the highest talents/
of Ireland entertain a different opinion, when they see the
indecent manner in which government have
and when I mention the name of Grattan, I need add no-
• exhibited the
p
thing more, that it had been the system of government by
arliament as their creatures? When Earl Pitzwilliam went
the sale of peerages, to raise a purse to purchase the repre-,
0 Ireland in the capacity of lord lieutenant, it was under-
s
sentation, or rather the misrepresentation of the people of
tood that he left London with the approbation of ministers,
n favour of the complete emancipation of the catholics; and
Ireland. The charge was brought by men of as great
though no such vote ever passed
Mies, of as unimpeached honour, of as high public character
. the legislature, no doubt
vas e
..and private virtue, as ever appeared either in that country o .
ntertained that the measure was to take effect, and that
in this, by men too, who feel a sincere attachment to Ore*
t would have experienced the most complete support from
parli
Britain, who cherish the connection which subsists between the
ament. However I may differ with my noble friend upon
his sy
two kingdoms, and who would be as much alarmed as arty
stem of politics, it cannot be denied that he was the
most popular,
men whatever, at any circumstances which might threat en tv,
lord lieutenant with all ranks of men, that had
been sent to govern Ireland; but after the hopes which
involve a separation. It was offered to be proved, that 003
1a01 been raised, after the known preparation of parliament
half, or even a majority of the House of Commons, 'were
° vote complete emancipation to the
creatures of the crown. The manner in which these evesno
catholics, he is slid-
x3
310
MR. FOX'S MOTION ON
[March 23
1797•]
THE STATE OF IRELAND.
3
chilly dismissed, the whole system is reversed, and the question
wickedly to divide from the higher rank, but against men of
which a few weeks before would have been carried with luta,.
considerable property, unimpeached character, and undoubted
nitnith is rejected by a vast majority. What was this but
it
loyalty
Numbers were taken up under charges of hig
the most insulting display of the dependence of the Irish
treason ; and when acquitted, it appeared that no ground of
legislature? Was it not a proof beyond a thousand demon-
suspicion could ever have been entertained against them.
strations, that the measure of 1782 had been rendered cora,
What could be the object of such proceedings, but to con-
pletely inefficacious ? 'that, in fact, Ireland had gained no,
vince the catholics that the concessions in their favour were
thing, but was placed in a; state of degradation beyond any
extorted, that the hostile mind still existed, and that they-
former period ? The effects of this persevering and avowed
Were marked out as the victims of the most cruel proscription*,
system of duplicity might, indeed, be different, according to
and oppression ? Private animosities, too, arose, and pro-
the character and situation of those on whom it operated.
duced those different classes of disturbers of the public peace
The lower classes of the Roman catholics, unfortunately not
about which so much has been said. The remedies applied
more enlightened, not better informed, nor, perhaps, so well
tended to foment the evil. The authority of the laws was
as the peasantry in other countries, though unable to specu-
superseded. Those against whom it was thought convictions
late upon political circumstances and to reason upon events,
could be procured, were taken up ; and those whom it would
might yet feel its effects. The inhabitants of the northern
have been impossible to convict, were' transported in great
parts, as well informed, as intelligent, as enlightened as the
numbers, without the ceremony of a trial. To enable the
middling classes in Great Britain, or any other country, would
government to pursue these violent measures, the Insurrection
view the system with a more discriminating glance; they
act was passed. Those who delight in violent measures, re-
would be able to combine the disposition which they saw ma-
joiced in the effect of their application. Other laws, nearly
nifested with the constitutional grievances under which they
as objectionable as the Insurrection act, ,mere also adopted ;
laboured, and it would at once heighten their sense of abuses,
and to one of these I must particularly call the attention of
and their desire of reform ; but even the concessions which
the House, in order to show the inefficacy of violent remedies.
were extended to the catholics, were conducted upon a plan
It was thought a point of the first necessity to prevent the
-which seemed studiously intended by government to damp
people, who were the objects of jealousy, from procuring
the joy of their success.
arms. Considering the strength which the government of
Before I proceed, I must here beg leave pointedly to express
Ireland possessed, it might have • been supposed that none
my abhorrence of the maxim divide et impera, and espc,
could have obtained arms but those who were armed by the
cially that by such a truly diabolical maxim, the government
licence of the executive power. Such, however, has been
of Ireland should be regulated; on the contrary, I am con-
considered the extent of the danger, that a rigour beyond
vinced, that in order to render Ireland happyin herself, and
any former measure has been employed in disarming the
useful in her connection with this country, every idea of
people. The .exercise of one inordinate authority has pro-
ruling by division ought to be relinquished, and that the ob-
duced the demand for increased powers, while every remedy
ject of government shculd be to effect a complete union of
that has been applied, has served only to augment the danger.
all ranks of men. Disapproving, as I do most heartily, the
And now, Sir, a few words upon the grievances of the
maxim I have mentioned, I cannot help being surprised that,
Catholics and the dissenters. I know an opinion has gone
a government so little disposed to act upon the principles of
forth, that the catholics have now no substantial grievances
justice or of liberty, should have acted as if it had heel'
to complain of, that the presbyterians have still less. It is
their aim to undo every part. So little was it the object l°
said that the catholics have had ceded to them all the privi-
inspire the catholics with gratitude for what had been 0331,:
leges of the most importance; that they can vote for members
ceded, that opinions were given without concealment, whic::
of parliament, and that they are not distinguished from the
left little room for exultation in what had been obtained. of
Protestants, but by being excluded from the high offices of
was usual for men of consideration in Ireland, to talk 'as
state, and from being members of parliament. If this were
what had been done was an act of necessity, which, on
I should still say, that they have a right to all the pri-
occasion, would be recalled : 'hostile suspicions were
vileges possessed by the protestants. On what principle
sinuated, not merely against the lower orders of •eatbol'ad
01.ight they to be excluded ? On what ground of justice ?
Sir,
whom it seemed to be the policy of government wtakly
upon no ground of justice: the only reason therefore,
X4
MR.FOX'S MOTION* ON [March 2
THE STATE OF 'HEXANE.
79
612
1
Must be i reason of policy, which is a sufficient proof of
bass current in the world. The loyalty and activity of the
hostile mind against them.
atholics upon the late attempted invasion, are now the theme
C
-
But let us consider it in another point of view. Is it no,
of the highest panegyric; but it is empty, unavailing praise:
thing to have no share in the government, and to be excluded
Laudatzcr et alget is the situation of catholic loyalty. The
from the higher offices of the state ? But it is invidiously
qualities which are so much extolled, ought to be rewarded
objected to the catholics, that it is not civil liberty which they
ay conferring on their possessors those just claims Which are
wish, but power and emolument. To this I would answ"
for the catholics, Yes; nor is it any discredit that they should
YetB(elefonrieedI tphie•enCe.ed to consider the situation of the protestants,
be actuated by such desire. I would say, that civil liberty
them is one point relative to the catholics which I ought to
can have no security without political power. To ask for
explain. It has been said, that the catholics are entitled to
civil liberty without political power, would be to act
vote for members of parliament; and the fallacy of this
like weak men, and to ask for the possession of a right for
boasted privilege ought to be exposed. Except in the counties,
the enjoyment of which they can have no security. I know
the representation of Ireland remains in what is hem known
that distinctions have been made between civil and political
by the name of close corporations. The animosities which
liberty, and I admit, that it is possible for whole classes,
formerly subsisted are anxiously kept up by the executive go-
whole casts and descriptions of men, to enjoy the one without
vernment, who favour the determination to exclude the catho-
•
possessing the other. Still, however, I assert, that it can be
lies from the corporations, so that their privilege is almost
only by sufferance. I admit, that civil liberty is of a higher
entirely evaded. They thus confer in theory a power, which
kind; but this I contend, that political power is the only
they are careful to defeat in practice. Those who esteem this
:security for the enjoyment of the other. - The catholics may
privilege, then, must be fond of theories upon paper, and
justly say, therefore, It is not this or that concession that will
unconcerned about their practical effect. Yet the preSby7
satisfy us, but give us that which alone Can give us security
terians consider their grievances to consist in the abuses of
for its continuance. It is objected also, that the catholics
the government, which they have not means to remedy. They
are not merely ambitious of power, but actuated by views of
wish for the substantial blessings of the English constitution.
private emolument. But if this were true, is it improper
They wish for the political principles on which that consti-
that the catholics, contributing so largely to the support of
tution is founded. Whoever imagines that a practical re-
government, should be desirous to share the emoluments
semblance exists between the government of Ireland and the
which it bestows, as a compensation for what they sacrifice?
English constitution, will find that the Irish government is
The compensation, indeed, is trifling ; but still, should they, '
a mirror in which the abuses of this constitution are strongly
in, point of right, be excluded from their•proportion ? Yet,
reflected. I will not speak of the abuses of which we have
how strongly will their claim be felt, when it is considered
been used to complain, but if I were desirous to reconcile
who are the disputants ? Are the catholics to be told by a few
any one to the abuses of the British constitution, it would
monopolising politicians, who engross all places, all rever-
be by a comparison with those of Ireland. Whatever may
sions, all emoluments, all patronages, " Oh ! you base calla-
have been thought of the plans of parliamentary reform
tics, you think of nothing but your private emolument ! You
which have been agitated here, still it was always admitted
perverse generation, who have already been permitted to
that the House of Commons should be at least a virtual re-
vote for members of parliament, are you so base as to urge
presentation of the people. It certainly was stating the point
the disgraceful demand of a share in personal emoluments?"
of virtual representation very high, when it was asserted in
th
Sir, the . catholics are met:, and are to be governed. The
is House, that though all the representatives of England
expence of maintaining all governments must be considerable,
were chosen by the county of Middlesex, it would be no
trr
and that of Ireland is certainly not a model of economy. In
haealaltstoat;efo: reform, so long,- as such a parliament discharged
the emoluments arising out of the establishments of govern'
its
- •
duty as a parliament. But, are the people of Ireland un-
ment, the catholics have a just right to participate; a for
land f
reasonable when they complain that they have not the ad-
a small and interested minority to imagine that they c0
even of virtual representation? When they complain
monopolize all these advantages to themselves, is a pretension,
le jobbing system of influence and patronage for pur-
which cannot be admitted. Mankind are not to be treatill
poses of personal advantage, is an abuse that totally destroys
the
• •
in this mannet.. It is not now-a-days that such claims
Tint of their form of government, and a practical nui,
[ March
R
THE STATE Or IRELAND.
3 15
314
M. Fox's MOTION ON
23,
I797']
15
sance which cannot be endured ? To suppose that a large,
them by the bayonet that their pretensions are unjust? Can
industrious, active, and intelligent body of men can be f;,),
y
I
ou demonstrate to them by martial law that they enjoy the
verned against the principles they have imbibed, and the
blessings of a free constitution ? No, it is said, but they
prejudices by which they are guided, is an idea which history
may lie deterred fi• om the prosecution of the objects which
and human nature prove to be absurd. What is the situation
you have determined to refuse. But on what is this founded?
of affairs with respect to Ireland ? You have raised enormous
On the history ofIreland itself? No ; for the history of
Ire
burdens both in England and in Ireland. You have produced
land proves that, though repeatedly subdued, it could not
great discontents, and you are reduced to such a point that you
be kept in awe by force; and the late examples wilt prove the
must take a decided part. In fact, we now arc precisely at the
eirect which severity may be expected to produce. The cha-
point in which we stood in x 774 with America, and the question
racter of the people of the north of Ireland has been severely
is, Whether we are to attempt to retain Ireland by force, instead
stigmatized. For my own part, it is not my habit to admit a
of endeavouring to gain her by concessions, and to conciliate her
fixed dislike against any bodies of men, nor do I see any thing
by conferring on her the substantial blessings of a free consti-
in these to justify such dislike. But it is said these men are
tution? Whenever I see a government desirous to decide byforce
of the old leaven. They are indeed of the old leaven, that
against the will of the majority, in these circumstances I be-
rescued the country from the tyranny of Charles I., and
ald the danger of civil war. There is this difference now in
James II.; they are of that leaven which asserted and defen-
our situation, that the state of our finances may deter us from
ded the principles of liberty; they are of that leaven which
encountering such hazardous enterprises. In the Other case
fermented, kneaded the British constitution. If these princi-
we were wealthy and prosperous. Stultitiam patiuntur apes
ples have been carried to excess-, it is an excess to which
might then be said of our situation : but now the critical state
I am more partial than to the opposite extreme. The oppo-
of our affairs, and the embarrassed condition of our finances,
sition they have suffered is some apology. I arri told, that the.
forbid similar experiments. I hope and trust that .the dis-
mode now adopted is this — to declare a country out of the
contents which threaten the separation of Ireland, will be
king's peace, it is necessary that there should be a certificate
dissipated without the necessity of a war. But now the ex-
from the magistrates; many of the magistrates are not na-
tremity of rigour has been tried, the .severity of despotism
tives of Ireland, or resident there, but Englishmen and officers
has been let loose, and the government is driven to that state
of the fencible corps. Are the people to be told that these
when the laws are not to be put in execution, but to be super-
magistrates are acting only in a civil capacity ? But have they,
seded. Ireland is precisely in that state which a person well
not been provoked to violence? Have not several of .the
acquainted with the subject defined to be despotism : " Where
principal people of Belfast been taken up ? The law is in
the executive power is every thing, and the rights of the people
that state, that men may be kept in prison without trial. Is
nothing." At the beginning of the American contest, the
that an inference of their guilt? I have seen the wanton pro-
SectitiOns
province of Massachusets bay was disarmed; but I do not
of government in this country which juries happily
ch ecked. I have.seen too much of these prosecutions to make
think that if this province .had been left armed, the separation
of the American colonies would have been accelerated. The
ine draw an inference of guilt from the circumstance of a man's
people of Ireland are now in that state-when, if they should
being -taken up. I have heard in Ireland of men being igno-
mini
chuse to resist, a contest must ensue, the issue of which must
ously arrested and carried to Dublin, who on their trials
be doubtful. In the commencement of the American warn
were found to be perfectly innocent, and ought not to have
been s
had made such an observation of the disposition of the rem
uspected. The people of the north, attached to these
lar governments of Europe, that I was convinced that France
men, were determined that they should not suffer in their
:would aid America. In the present there can be no room
Prop.erty, The people Worked for .nothing ; they reaped
their h
,doubt that the French would make it a chief point of their
arvests, on purpose to shew.either their good will to
e yof
the p
policy to give assistance to the insurgents. But suppos
arties, or their detestation, possibly, of the•conduct of
were to succeed in disarming the whole of the north01.1
offen
government. This, however, was construed to-he a heinous
.Ireland, you must keep them in subjection by force. rto
s,ece; -the people were dispersed by The ;military; and when
do not allay their discontents, there is no way but forocle
were killed, the attending their bodies to the grave was
keep them in obedience. Can you convince them by tPn
nied criminal, and the persons assisting
If they were,
were, dispersed, as
musauet that their pri ciples are false? Can you pro/e°
doing an act against the ,state. That these things
8 16
MR. FOX'S MOTION ON
[Marc*
THE STATE OF IRELAND.
:203
317
will goad who can doubt? Is it not possible that they who
t be a conciliation and compromise ? In the: declaration
prefer monarchy may find the exercise of it so bad, as almost
of the people of Belfast, I see that they do most distinctly
to doubt the excellence of a monarchical government? B
state, that they conceive all the benefits of freedom may be
should the people even be totally subdued, can you do other-
enjoyed under a government of king, lords, and commons.
wise than keep up a large military force? But suppose the
What, then, is it that the people wish for ? They wish the
people submit— I put the ,
in that way can you trust
House of Commons to be differently constituted. I think
to such a situation ? Wil their submission to laws which
them right. They desire a diminution of patronage, and they
they detest, last longer than your power lasts, and their ire.
may go the extraordinary length of saying, that it is not right
potency? Will you continue to keep up your force? Du-
to have a church in all its splendour, which is applicable only
ring the war, I believe you will. But can Ireland afford to
to a small part of the inhabitants. But do not these things
maintain it during peace? Is it the way to persuade the
admit of temperate discussion and satisfactory compromise ?
catholics to assist you,
you. to refuse acceding to their demands?
What, they ask, is a constitution such as Great Britain has, ac-
I have heard that a direct application has been made, not
cording to some, and such as she ought to have, according to
from the catholic peasantry, but from the catholic nobility;
others — a government which shall virtually express the will
a strong and urgent application to the government to grant
of the people ; and if in treating with them you should fail,
the remainder of their demands. I have been told, what cer.
you will then have to resort to violent measures ; you will then
tainly it was unnecessary to tell me, that these applications
have to divide the people, as Mr. Burke said — not to divide
have been unsuccessful. To refuse all these demands, to de-
the people of Massachussets from the people of Virginia—
termine' to govern Ireland by military force, to risk a civil
not to divide Boston from Carolina — not, I say, to divide
war ; which of these evils is the worst I know not.
Ulster from 'Connaught, and Leinster from Munster, but you
But it may be said, what is to be done? My general prin-
will divide the people who wish for the constitution from
ciple is to restore peace on principles of peace, and to make
those who wish to destroy it. These are the divisions which
concessions on principles of concession. I wish members to
I wish for. But conciliation, it may be said, will not do. If
read that celebrated speech of Mr. Burke on the subject of
it will not, then only may we have recourse to arms. Is there
such concessions. Let them read that beautiful display of elo-
a worse period for the country in point of credit and re-
quence, and at the same time of sound reasoning, and they will
sources? I know not; but sure I am, that we cannot do worse,
find in it all those principles which it is my wish to have
than at the end of one war, to adopt measures to bring on
adopted. There is another expression of that gentleman's, I
another. I would therefore concede; and if I found I had
believe, in his letter to the people of Bristol. In that letter
not conceded enough, I would concede more. I know of no
he says, that " that is a free government which the people
way of governing mankind but by conciliating them; and
who live under it conceive to be so." Apply this to Ireland;
according to the forcible way which the Irish have of express-
make it such a government as the people shall conceive to be
ing their meanina " I know of no mode of governing the
meaning,
a free one. But it is said, it is not possible to satisfy all per-
the people, but by letting them have their own way." And.
sons. It may be so. But is there one concession that could
what shall we lose by it? If Ireland is governed by conced-
be made to the catholics which the people in the north of
ing to all her' ways and wishes, will she be less useful to Great
Ireland could object to ? Is there one grievance which could
Britain? What is she now? Little • more than a diversion
be remedied in the north, to which the catholics would object?
for the enemy. If you keep Ireland by force now, what must
They have no inconsistent pretensions, no clashing interests
You do in all future wars ? You must in the first place secure
The concessions to be made to the different parties are not
her from insurrection. I will therefore adopt the Irish ex-
inconsistent; the one party will not repine at the satisfactien
pression, and say, that you can only govern Ireland by letting
which the other obtains. Who, then, would be dissatisfied
her have her own way. The consequences of a war with
by such concessions ? Not the aristrocracy, for I will not
Ireland are dreadful to contemplate ; public horrors would be
so
call it by so respectable a name. And is that miserable mono'
increased by the laceration of private feelings,' as to spread
uni
polising minority to be put in the balance with the prefer?
versal misery through both countries; the connection is so
oration of the empire and the happiness of a whole peoPI,e'
interwoven between the individuals of the two countries that
The Irish wish to have a reform, upon an extended scale;
4,o r
theroe
upture can happen without wounding the most tender
they desire an extension
f popular rights, But may
'llendshis and the most sacred ties. Rigour has already
14;
318
MR. Fox's MOTION, &C.
[March
mR. POLLEN'S MOTION, Sze,
1197')
been attempted ; let concession and conciliation then-be tried
cabinet, and it is the privilege of this House to 'advise his
before the last appeal is hazarded. My wish is, that die
majesty.
It I were to justify the measure by precedent, I
whole people of Ireland should have the same principles, the
tai m i t quote the case of an impeachment of the Earl of Lau-
same system, the same operation of government, and, thotwh
derdale by the English parliament, before the Union, for his
it may be a subordinate consideration, that all classes should
conduct of the government of Scotland. But why should I
have an equal chance of emolument : in other words, I wood
peak of forms when the consequence of the discontents in
have the whole Irish government regulated by Irish notions
Ireland may be . contest to be supported by Englishmen and•
and Irish prejudices; and I firmly believe, according to another
English money? I therefore move, Sir, " That an humble
Irish expression, the more she is under the Irish government
addres s be presented to his majesty, that his majesty will be
• the more will she be bound to English interests.
ously pleased to take into his royal consideration the
irsatcuir
' One word or two on the subject of Lord Fitzwillime;s
bed state of his kingdom of Ireland, and to adopt such
administration. He went to Ireland, and after a short resi-
healing and lenient measures as may appear to his majesty's
dence, was recalled. I wish to ask those who know that
wisdom best calculated to restore tranquillity, and to conciliate
country best, whether the day of his departure was not a day
the affections of all descriptions of his majesty's subjects in
of the greatest sorrow ? That his lordship has many qua-
that kingdom to his majesty's person and government."
lities to render him popular, I know ; but his popularity in
Ireland was derived from this circumstance, that he went
This motion was seconded in an animated speech by Sir Francis
upon the principle of concession. What happened after his
Burdett, and supported by Mr. William Smith, Lord Wycombe,
Mr. Curwen, Mr. Courtenay, and Mr. Hobhouse ; and was opposed
departure ? Those who look only superficially at events
by Mr. Pitt, Lord Hawkesbury, and Lord Frederick Campbell.
boasted that the effects which bait been predicted in conse-
On a division, the numbers were,
quence of his lordship's recal, did not happen. The catholic
Tellers.
Tellers.
petition was rejected. I said that these appearances were
y s f Mr. Curwen 7 0
Ld. Hawkesburyi 2
deceitful, that the effects might not be immediate, but would
Mr. WM. Smith S 4 . —
NOBS
Mr. John Smythf
be certain. See what has happened, and say, whether you
So it passed in the negative.
cannot conceive that great part of the present distracted state
of the country has been produced by the hopes of the people
having been disappointed," and by the cup of enjoyment having
been dashed from their lips. You may be now in a situation
somewhat similar. The measures you have adopted may pro-
duce apparent quiet, but I warn you against premature exul-
MR. POLLENS MOTION" FOR. PEACE Willi FRANCE.
tation. That the present state of Ireland can afford no satis-
faction, all must admit. That there is so great a part of the
April a 0.
king's subjects as the county of Down contains, 'out of the
king's peace and the pale of the constitution, is a circumstance
THIS day Mt. Pollen moved, " That an humble address be
THI
which w2 must all lament; and should it lead to civil dissention,
to his majesty, to represent to him, that it appears
to this 'House, on a mature consideration of the circumstances,
there is no man, I am sure, but will feel the horrible situation
and the result of the late negotiation, that his majesty's gracious
in which individuals would be involved, and the calamities that
a
benign intentions for restoring general peace, have been either
would be entailed upon the public Sir, I say, therefore)
Misconceived by the government of France, or ill explained by
try conciliation, but do not have recourse to arms, which,
them to the people of that country i that we therefore humbly be-
if once attempted to a considerable degree, cannot be rem°.
seech his majesty, that he will be graciously pleased, without de-
lay,
died or recalled. In case of civil dissention, whom can you
to adopt such measures as may appear to him, in his royal
wisdom
rely upon ? Not upon that small party of monopolists, maRY
,MoSt efBeatious for removing every misconception which
of whom could not bring so many men into the field, as they
may have been entertained by the directory of France, by the
bring members into parliament. I can scarcely conceive titat,
ons
intentions
,
inb
l'ench nation, and by all Europe, relative to the sincerity of the
y which the government of this country was actuated
any objection can be urged against the present motion in Poi'
making of peace to the directory of France."—Mr. Pitt
of form. The interests of this country and of Ireland
opposed the motion. He said it would appear, on inquiry, that
same ; its afhirs arc conducted by ministers and the 1.')
ministers had not only performed the whole of what the motion
FOR PEACE 'WITH FRANCE.
MR. POLLEN'S MOTION
321
32e
1 79 7'3
[
proposed, but had even gone beyond the direct terms of it.
n that sincerity I have great doubts. What is the reason,
yr-
of
th
had no hesitation in declaring that in consequence
dispatches
en of this embassy ? I am afraid it is too much like that
received from his imperial majesty, who had refused to negociate
whi '
ch took place last summer. 'When the French arms were
for peace, but in conjunction with Great Britain, a confidential
victorious; when the situation of the emperor was critical, as
person was to be sent from this country to Vienna, with inStrIte,
admitted by all; desperate, as thought by many ; then you
tions to enable the emperor to conduct farther negotiations,
a step similar to that which is now about to be taken,
too
concert with his allies. He, therefore, hoped that Mr. Pollen
that was afterwards followed by your sending a negociator
would withdraw his motion, rather than persevere in a measure
Paris. I know that some persons chuse to forget the elates
which would tend to defeat the end which it proposed.--`After
circumstances of these events; seeing that when Lord
the other orders of the day had been moved by Mr. Hiley M.
'.1.11oliti:o:( Plilamesbury was sent to Paris, the French had met with some
iling;ton,
Ct.
defeats. That we were in a state more prosperous when that
M. Fox rose, and said : It would be difficult for me;
noble lord went to Paris than we had been some time before
r
sistently with my duty, to give a silent vote upon the question
is true; but when the measure was taken that led to that em-
bassy, we were in a. situation the most disastrous. I will not
now before the House upon this extraordinar y day. After
all that this country has suffered, after all the calamities that
question, because I have no means of proving, how iiir the
have been brought upon us, and after contemplating those
minister was sincere when he adopted that measure; I am
heartily inclined to think he was sincere in his endeavours to
that are impending, we have to consider whether we will ad-
dress the throne for the purpose of facilitating peace, which I
make peace when it was impossible for him to make a good
think, which trust this House, which I know this country
one; for I do know that there is a natural connection between
thinks, is the only means of repairing our misfortune, and
haughtiness and meanness ; and under the terms he was sent,
averting our ruin. What is it that is now stated to the
it was as impossible to obtain a good peace, as if he had not
House by those who oppose this motion? What does the
been sent to Paris at all. But there is another point to
minister himself, who has had so large a share in producing
be considered with regard to that embassy : it took place
your present calamities, and who therefore ought to feel for
when there was a loan to be obtained, and he continued at
them, propose to you this night? What, but a desire that
Paris until that loan was concluded ; we are now at a period
in which the French have been victorious, and the emperor's
you should persist in continuing that confidence in him which
situation desperate ; we are now also to negociate a loan; and
has brought you to that calamity ; that you should continue
we are now, as we were then, called upon to confide in the pro-
that forbearance which is the source of your misfortune; that
feos
n Isv t
you should still trust to those councils which have been so
ions of the minister. This is the way in which the mini-
fatal. He is for ever the same character, although he comes
ster chuses to gloss. over the duplicity of his conduct: we are
the o negociate in conjunction with the emperor, and Buona-
before you in different shapes. When he is called upon by
parte is to be the negociator for peace for us both. The
those who are the most willing to trust him, to take some step
minister tells us, 44
that may lead to peace, he comes forward with, a promise that
Do not put me under difficulties by your
u
he will do so, nay, that he is actually doing it. Promises
ntimely interference. It is a principle, that the House of
Commons should confide in the executive
you. have had from him in abundance, but not one of theta
government when
y
has he fulfilled. 'We are told this day, as I understand,
ate endeavouring to negociate for peace." To that, as a
general principle, I have no difficulty in assenting, although,
that the city of London was informed in the morning, that
Perhaps, I should not agree with the minister as to the extent
10
gentleman in a confidential character is going to Vienna, the
whi
t of whose mission would be explained this evening to,
chthat principle may be carried. The question is not
!.1 e, w
objec
d' ',
hether any minister, !,under any circumstances, should
the House of Commons. How far that has been explaine
'lave the confidence of this House a
pendin a negociation ?
leave gentlemen to say. But, it seems, Mr. Hammond, 01
bat, whether the present minister, under the' present circum-
whose abilities I have no doubt, is going to Vienna, and 1110
stances,,
ought to have that confidence? And here it
this the minister expects you to stop at once in the perforn'rf
is not
Toper to recur to what happened in this House two years
ante of your public duty. He is going upon the sub ect 0
a 0 • a motion was made by an honourable gentleman, not at
peace, and under that general head, supposing his emploYell
a
hostile to the present minister in his general line of po-
to be sincere in desiring to forward that event, he would et
. 1311-
tor.. VI
with the unanimous wishes of the people of this country
322
MR. POLLEN'S MOTION
[April
1797.] FOR PEACE WITH FRANCE. 323
litics (Mr. Wilberforce). What. was then the lance lage?
the present ministers are to be the negociators, the chance of
The very same that we have heard this day : " Do not \\,0te
obtaining it will be infinitely increased if parliament should
for this proposition, but trust to me." Then comes the ewe.
give that negociation the sanction of its vote. If it should
mon-place argument, that every minister must be interested
07ppear, to be the • dictate of parliament, it will give to those
in obtaining peace. I see no reason why that desire should
.Nivnomnyou are to negate a pledge of sincerity which
I
be peculiar to a minister. Was not Lord North in the sane
kith ave t had; and I think I need not add, that the
situation during the last war? Has not every minister been ie
French doubt the sincerity of our present executive govern-
the same situation ? What is there peculiar in the character
or situation of the present minister that should lead us to sup-
The honourable gentleman who spoke last has gone over
pose that he is more sincere in his professions of peace than
e
of the war, and dwelt a good deal on the declare-
any other minister? Upon the occasion to which I have al-
tion of the French, to slim their hostility to this country. I
luded, the present minister said he should be ready to nego.
admit that their declaration proves their hostility to us. But,
ciate whenever the enemy should appear to be in a state
f we say that there is a reigning faction in France, that is not
capable of maintaining the accustomed relations of peace and
ikely to be favourable to a peace—has not that faction a
amity with other powers. What happened then ? The mini-
right to say, while you confide in the minister's professions in
ster prevailed upon the House to do then what he asks you
ledance of his acts, that there is a reigning faction in Great
to do now to confide in his professions of sincerity. The
Britain, that is riot sincerely desirous for peace ? The expres-
House did not interfere with its authority, which it ought to
ions of the directory, as against us, I admit are very strong,
have done, but did that which it ought not to have done; it
and are inconsistent with what England ought to expect; but,
confided under an idea that a negociation would soon take
compared to the language of the leading faction in the Eng-
place : no negociation, however, was attempted. After this, a
lish House of Commons, they are terms of civility, and even
considerable time elapsed, and then there came from the
politeness ; and all that has been said in France, with all the
throne a declaration which stated, that from circumstances
powers of oratory which the leaders there possess, has not
which had taken place in France, a negociation might be
reduced among the people of that country a greater abhor-
attempted. I thought, and I believe the people of this coun-
ence of our executive government, than what has been said
try thought, that the period was much too long before that
y the leading faction in this country. The honourable gen-
negociation was attempted. It was, however, at last attempted,
email said, that if the propositions which were made by me
through the medium of Mr. Wickham, and afterwards Carried
i the time of Robespierre had been adopted, they would have
on by the embassy of Lord Malmesbury ; and the whole con-
been reversed by the succeeding faction. There is no autho-
duct of it is so marked, and the public opinion upon it so
rity for coming to that conclusion ; on the contrary, every
well made up, that I need not add any opinion of mine upon
measure that was agreed to with respect to external arrange-
the subject. It came to be discussed in this House ; and we
during the time of Robespierre, has been confirmed
were told, after every means had been made use of to evade
and carried into effect by the succeeding faction. " But they
all measures that could lead to any serious negociation, that
Lave made peace with other powers, and have never seriously
there was not a heart in England so profligate as to wish, nor
thought of doing so with Great Britain." That they should
a hand so dastardly as to sign, nor was there to be founds
endeavour to make peace with many of the great powers com-
man so degenerate as to be the courier of a commission to be
bined against them does not appear wonderful to me, nor
sent to France to stipulate for peace. The courier will, and
Wonderful that they have succeeded in such endeavours.
must be found, and, I trust, the hand will be seen that
"But they did not endeavour to make a separate peace with
sign a peace with France.. I say we have tried our executive
ti.ii',:afieliectierin
y be h
I grant it. But their endeavours against him
government enough to be confident that we can do no good re
do not appear to me to be any proof of their extraordinary
our country by trying such means any longer. Let es now
against
inst us, nor does it prove the contrary. It proves
try means which we have not tried. My opinion is, that, l et
°1113',
t t ley
e
have contended against the emperor in the
Ii
who will be the negociators for peace, certainly still more
y ave,
Iave, because they have the means of annoying the
e
.
eVecor more than they have the means of annoying us.
But to return to the question immediately before us. I would
as
•
f' See Vol. v. p.467.
lc) Ls there any man in this House, or in this country, who
Y 2
3 2 4
MR. POLLEN'S MOTION,
[April
FOR PEACE WITH PRANCE.
3 2 j
i797'1
thinks that our chance of obtaining peace will be as good bv
daring, that a separate peace between the emperor and France,
confiding in the promise of ministers, as if this House cane
or between Great Britain . and France, would be a less evil to
to a declaration upon that subject? Does any man in his
os than a continuance of the war upon the present system.
conscience believe, that the executive government can be
13 , after all that can be said of the credit of this country,
trusted so well in a negociation for peace without, as with
with all the advantages of the sinking fund, it must not be
the injunction of this House? What are we to think of those
dissembled that you are lower in that respect than at any
who talked of marching to Paris, if they do not receive the
former period of your history. All your conquests in St.
check of this House in their phrenzy ? Does any man believe
Domingo will.never bring back to you the millions that ,,,o1.1
that, with all our advantages and the profit we have had by
have squandered, nor restore to you the lives devoted to that
the easy means we have discovered, as w were told by the
part of your service. This may be called declamation upon
gentleman who spoke last, of quieting the people of this
the general subject of the war, but it is not so. I am not
country, that we shall the more easily obtain peace by trusting
makingiu;laioa,
krneo
a general declamation upon the evils of war, but upon
to ministers than by interposing the authority of this FIenseb
i p c
evils which you have specifically sustained.. -We entered
to obtain peace? Of these means I trust the people of this
this war on the general idea, that all the powers of
country have a proper feeling. We have found out the
would enter into an alliance with us. The result
means of quieting the people of this country by repealing
otif:that policy we have seen. France has gained the alliance
some of the best provisions of the bill of rights. Are we
of Spain, all the power of Italy, and the Netherlands. She
really to say to Europe, that this war was carried on to
has obtained the neutrality at least, I think the friendship,
procure these advantages of quieting the people of this coun-
of the King of Prussia. These are the allies which France
try, and that we could only pass these measures when we had
has gained, to say nothing of Holland. But in addition to
a large standing army, which was ostensibly raised against a
these alliances, she has gained an ally which is more for-
foreign foe, but which, in reality, was intended to enable our
midable to us than all of them together. I mean the national
executive government to carry into effect these easy means of
debt of Great Britain. This is an ally that has been increas-
quieting the people? I own I do not think it necessary to
ing from day to clay, and will aid the French much more than
congratulate the people on these easy means of quieting them,
all the rest united; and be it remembered, that we were told
I have heard it said, it was wise to sacrifice a part of our
in the outset that this was to be a contest of finance between
liberty to save the remainder; but the part which we have
Great Britain and France. Our confidence in the minister
sacrificed appears to be the most material of our constitution.
will increase the power of this last and great ally of the
But let us consider the time in which we arc debating this
French, for the continuance of the war will most rapidly
measure. We arc not now about to grant millions to the
increase our debt.
• emperor, to enable him to march to Paris, but to prevent the
But, it seems, " the French will be encouraged if this House
French, as we are told, from marching to London. This is
should interfere and dictate to the executive government."
what I do not believe: but this is the state of the argument
Will they really think worse of your energy, if they find that
as urged •by those who oppose this motion. It has been said
you are determined to take your own affairs into your own
that we have had an opportunity of chewing the character 0
hands instead of confiding to the present minister? 'Will they
the British nation in the present war. I hope that character
real ly expect to make better terms of peace with the people
will always be supported ; but I own I think it has heel
of England, speaking to them through the medium of their
unnecessarily tried. I know of no obligation that we were
representatives, than with the present executive government?
called upon to shew our good faith in this war, at the com-
00 they expect more real care of the interest of the people
mencement, even according to the arguments of the minister
cif England from a reigning faction, than from the people
himself; except with regard to Holland; and there our nos:
the
s mselves, peaking through the medium of their represen-
Lance was not asked for; on the contrary, we were told that
tatives? I apprehend the contrary; and that, as we should
our friendship would be more dangerous than our neutrallt).
expect more justice from the French people themselves than
I wish for no breach of faith on the part of this cow'
e do from any faction among them, so would they from Great
because I know its honour is highly valuable to its inter est'
iie
1Britain; and in that view 1 should hope, that neither the
I wish a peace may be obtained by us conjointly withl'
republic of France would be hostile to Great Britain, nor the
emperor : but, between two evils, I have no difficulty n u
limited monarchy of this country be hostile to the just claims
Y3
26
"'
A
AIR. POLLEN'S NOTION
[April I.
FOR PEACE WITH FRANCE.
1797'1
327
and true interests of the republic of France. I wish to know
and that there is a gloom at this moment over our affairs,
what better pledge you could give of sincerity to France
which is not warranted by the real state of them. I believe
your desire for peace, than to tell them by a vote - of the
the people of England to be a grave, sober, and sensible peo-
House of Commons, that you arc willing to negotiate; and
not easily driven to despondency. But, when they see
what is more likely to lead to a restoration of tranquillity upon
miaisters clay after day, week after week, month after month,
a solid and permament foundation? I do not wish to go now
and year after year, plunging them into an abyss of ruin ;
into the question of the terms of peace. I know, as well as
when they see that ministers at one time talk triumphantly,
the minister does, that they cannot now be discussed here;
and call .for confidence and money to march to Paris, and
but I believe I may say without danger, that although Bea
then again call for more confidence and more money to pre-
glum was once considered as the cause of breaking off the
vent the French from marching to London, I cannot much
negociation for peace, there would not be much difficulty now
wonder even at their beginning to doubt the propriety of
between the parties upon that subject. I am afraid it is as
the career of those who thus load them. Let the people of
little necessary now to say much about Holland. I am afraid,
England be fairly described. Let them be called gloomy, if
too, that disputes will be superfluous as to what part of Italy
you please; desponding, if you please; but above all things
the emperor shall possess. I am afraid that the good sense,
let them not be called impatient. What have they not been
or, if you please, the crying voice of the people of Great
told that is false? -What have they not suffered? and yet
Britain, will not disturb you much in consequence of am
without any symptom of impatience. Do not, therefore, let
concession you may make to France upon these points that
us mock or insult them. I hope it will be shown this night,
were once so much an object of your contention. But, then,
that we are determined to represent the sense they have of
are you to sue for peace? I hope you will never be compelled
their own affairs, and that we will no longer confide in the
to do any thing that shall have the appearance of meanness.
minister who has so often and so shamefully deceived them ;
But surely you should look at your situation ; no man thinks
but that, like representatives, we will take their affairs
that this war is to continue for ever. I will not state any
into our own hands, and speak their general wish for the
thing that appears to be extravagant, or that is likely to shock
restoration of peace in the only manner in which it is likely
you; but I should suppose that I allowed you a tolerable
to be effectual. I know that the people of this country have
length of time if I allowed you ten years to carry on the war.
long wished for peace. Every man, therefore, in this House,
Now I would ask if there be a man among us who thinks,
who is of that opinion, should declare it this night by his
that in the course of ten years you will be likely to stand
vote. If you trust to the professions of the minister, you will
upon better ground for negociation than you do now? Sup-
he deceived, as you have been. Declare your opinion to be
posing, then, France to lose all that she has gained in the
in favour of peace, and the people of this country will not
present contest, to lose the friendship of Prussia, to lose the
fail to keep you in countenance. They have spirit enough
alliance of Spain, to lose the Netherlands, to lose Holland,
left, notwithstanding the attempts that have been made to
to lose the power she now possesses in Italy, and that all
deprive them of it, to enforce such a declaration, whatever
these powers were to turn, as if by magic, into alliance with
the minister may think of it. Should ,this House come to
you, do you believe that even in such an event, extravagant
the declaration which is now before you, does any man, who
and insane though it be to expect it, do you believe, I say,
is the representative of a county ; does any man, who is the
that this new ally of the French, the national debt of Great
representative of a manufacturing city or town; does any
Britain, would not be equal to them all ? One campaign more
flan, who is the representative of any populous place in this
will add at least forty millions to your debt: do you believe
kingdom, fear that his constituents will disapprove of his con-
then, I say, that you will have better terms of peace than you
duct? Do you not, on the contrary, all know, that they will
may have at this moment? I have put the case as if You
thank you ? Would any man in this House be ashamed or
could command victory at all points, just in proportion as
afraid to meet his constituents to-morrow, after having voted
you have lost it upon the continent, almost without exception,
fer'this motion? Does any such man think that an explana..
since your disaster at Dunkirk. I say nothing against the
ti_on of his conduct to his constituents will be necessary ?
valour of the
n
Austria arms; but I ask, if I am stating
But what will they do who vote against this motion ? Why,
thing unreasonable in 4 the rational prospect of your affair!'
they will say that, indeed, they are friends to peace; but that
But it is said that the people of England should not despona
they did the best they could to obtain it, by leaving thu
Y 4
MOTION FOR THE REPEAL, &c.
329
29
328
MOTION FOR PEACE WITH FRANCE. [April
17971
subject in the hands of the executive government. There is,
The House divided on the question, " That the other orders of
nothing which they will not say in order to convince the
the day be now read,
Tellers.
Tellers.
public that they are favourable to peace; and they will be
{Mr. Neville
Mr. Pollen 1
believed in their assertions, pretty much in the same manner
YEAS
291.—NOES
Mr. J. Smyth
{Mr. Jekyll '5'
as those are who profess to be advocates for the abolition of
Mr. Pollen's motion was consequently lost.
the slave trade, while they vote for its continuance. Do not
let us imagine that we can deceive the public by our pro.
fessions. They are too much enlightened, and they feel too
much to be imposed upon by us. Let us not perpetually talk
of wishes for peace; let us do something towards obtaining
peace; let us vote for peace. Let us not content ourselves
4r. Fox's MOTION FOR THE REPEAL OF THE TREASON
with saying we are friends to peace; let us not trust to
AND SEDITION BILLS.
ministers; that we have clone much too long ; now let us act
for ourselves !
May 23.
With regard to the particular words of this motion, per,
haps had I penned it, I might have chosen other words, be-
HIS day, in pursuance of the notice he had given,
cause I am of opinion it does not go quite far enough; but
T
upon that score I do not see any dung material to object. I
Mr. Fox rose and said: — I shall not have occasion, Sir,
am sure, that if you adopt it more witll be done than you can
to detain the House for any considerable length of time in
hope to do by confiding in the minister. It desires the king
stating the reasons that induce me to call their attention to
to explain the reason why negociation has not been renewed.
the memorable acts of the last parliament, a motion for the
I am •sure that is necessary in the opinion of all Europe, for
repeal of which I intimated before the holidays; nor will it be
the reasons hitherto assigned have been much too equivocal.
necessary for me to say much in answer to the misrepresenta-
The minister says, that the French have misrepresented the
tions that have been made on account of my having delayed
conduct of our executive ,government in the late negociation.
the motion so long. The circumstances that have recently
I do not know that they have not ; but an explanation will do
occurred, particularly the measure of the stoppage of cash
us no harm. I believe that Lord Malmesbury was instructed
payments at the bank, so totally engrossed the public atten-
to insist on the French giving up Belgium as a sine guano.
tion, and engaged the time of the House, that I did not
I believe, too, that such is the general opinion of Europe.
think it right to bring forward this discussion, and instead of
The minister is always explicit in this House no doubt, since
deferring it by adjournments from week to week, I directly
he convinces the majority of it; but with all his command of
and openly announced it for the present period. I have never,
words, it must be confessed, that, out of this House, no man
Sir, had but one opinion of the two obnoxious bills, which, at
is more unfortunate in his explanations. The French directory
the time they were passed, I conceived to be most portentous to
misunderstand him, the contractors for the loan misunderstand
the country, Every reflection that I have made upon the
him, the bankers misunderstand him, the Lord Lieutenant of
subject, and all the experience that we have had since they
Ireland misunderstands him, and even the directors of the Bank
livieols'ee:ayso laws served to corroborate my original feeling,
t
of England, who takes notes of his conversation, for the ex-
and t herefore it is, that I now rise to move for the repeal of
press purpose of being accurate, misunderstand him ! I wish,
therefore, in future, that in all public affairs he would conde-
With respect to one of the two bills, that which came to
scend to employ some other person whose knowledge of words
us from the Lords, under the title of " a bill for the better
is more upon a level with the rest of mankind than his own,
i „reservation of his majesty's person and government against
in order that men of ordinary capacities may stand a chance
trea
l sonab e practices," I shall make but one or two observa-
of comprehending his meaning. I shall only add, that, above
dotes, though every part of it continues to excite my heartfelt
all, the consideration you should have in your minds this ilight,
1°"th ee. The first great objection to that act is, that it
is the hitherto admirable, if not astonishing patience of the
etends
th
unnecessarily the statutes of treason, and carries
people of England, under all the calamities which the minis-
,_ eirt to a length by no means consistent with sound polic y as
ter has heaped upon them, and the duty which you owe to
avowed object, the king's safety, nor consistent with
them, to speak their wishes for peace.
MOTION FOR THE REPEAL OE
[M ay 23,
1797.]
THE TREASON AND SEDITION BILLS.
33°
331
the tranquillity and constitution of the realm. The rnemora.
meats - of a kind so barbarous and • inhuman as to shock
ble statute of Edward III. was found to be sufficient to pre..
the heart of man. When you look -back to the judgments
vent the crime of treason ; and experience has taught us, that
that have been past in former periods of our history,
wil
all the forced constructions that have been put on that statute
co you reflect on the prejudices and passions to which
have served rather to lower than to heighten its force. Its
our frail nature is subject, when you think on the pos-
sufficiently
operation has proved that the life of the king is suffici
sibility that judges may be as servile, as corrupt, or as
guarded, and every extension of it beyond that great and na-
cruel in future times as they have been in past, you will,
tional object has only served to take away the reverence which
be able to form a just estimate of the character of a
its simplicity excited in the hearts of the people. That simpli-
l
i:iellvlitaliPs
at' enables them to inflict a punishment of so dreadful a
city impressed upon the mind a sanction which it was impossi-
kind for an offence so indefinite and doubtful as a political
ble to derive from intricate and nice constructions. The people
libel. You will think with me, that the punishment of fine
saw, in its noble and generous frame, security for themselves;
and imprisonment is fully sufficient to the crime—if crime it
by the reverence in which ,it held the sacred person of their
be -- of publishing the most extravagant political opinion as to
king, they saw that, for the security of his person, even the
the form of governing a community. If this bill had passed a
imagination of his death was provided against ; and the law
century ago, how many men, whose estimable characters have
was so clearly defined, so short, and so simple, that no dan-
made them dear to mankind, might have been banished to
ger to the well-meaning could be created by its operation.
Botany Bay, and condemned by the barbarous sentence of an
In the reign of Queen Elizabeth laws were enacted for the
inhuman judge to the society of a set of beings whom vice had
preservation of her person and government, for which the
degraded, and crimes of every nature had expelled from all
turbulence of the times was the apology, but which no person
rational intercourse with man ! Would not the writings of
could contemplate without indignation. In the period of
Locke, writings that have so -greatly enlightened and bene-
King Charles II., similar suspicions were entertained of num-
fited the country, have probably condemned their author to
bers of persons being disaffected to the government, and some
this horrible exile ? But, without going back to a period so
severe and scandalous laws were enacted for the preservation
distant, can we deny that, in a period much nearer our own
of the king's person. What is the impression that these laws
eines, the violence of factious spirit might have hurried even
have made upon every person who has attentively considered
judges of our own day to the infliction of this detestable punish-
the history of the times ? That they were enacted upon a
meat if this law had then had existence ? In the beginning of
consciousness that the conduct of the government was such as
the present reign complaints were made of the atrocious cha-
to provoke disaffection in the minds of the people; and this
racter of the public libels then published, and in the heat and
must always be the effect of rigorous and severe laws. Itwas
fury of zeal, prosecutions were carried on with a bitterness, upon
made highly penal to say, that Charles II. was a papist
which no person of moderation can reflect without shame and
Why ? Because, in truth, he was so. No law would, in the
regret. Personal considerations mixed with the motives of
present day, be thought necessary for the preservation of the
public decorum; and though I !a,ope they did not influence
character of George the Third, against the charge of his be-
either the prosecutors or the judges, yet I submit to the
too
II11()orit-tiisc f
ing a Roman catholic, because any such charge would be
e, whether the temper of the times was not such as to
contemptible for notice. His majesty's well-known character
inake it highly probable that Mr. Alderman Wilkes, upon
is the best protection against such an imputation, and the very
Ns second conviction, might have been doomed to this
enacting of such a law would betray a consciousness that there
fate. I am not sure that our nature is- so likely to
be p
was ground for the imputation. The laws of Charles IL 1!
urified by public situations of trust and power, as to be
su
made in this spirit; they were received by the peopl e, am:,
perior to all base and malignant passions; and I am not
,sure
have been received by posterity in this spirit ; and such
but that, in the spirit of those times, Mr. Wilkes might
r sost',10
can never have any other effect than to excite .simila
n.
n.
been the victim of a persecuting rage.
Honour
have not the
cions, and to weaken the government which they profess
'10nour of that gentleman's acquaintance, nor have I, in the
sba,11e
support. The only other part of the bill to which I
!atirse of our political lives, frequently agreed with him in
t
w
, is
allude, and which, in my mind, is very importan
Ion
; but now that the intemperance of the time is past, I
Issu_
provision with respect to political libels. It enacts, that3 114,
brifit to the House what must be the feeling of every liberal
P11111`
"art
a second conviction, judges may be enabled' to inflict
at the idea of condemning a person of such high
[Mae
THE TREASON AND SEDITION DILLS.
333
MOTION FOR THE REPEAL OF
.)
332
come insensible to the dictates of justice and humanity. It
•
, so dear to the society in which he lives, so excels
attainments
has been truly said, that no passion is so calculated to harden
glary as a magistrate, and who has shewn himself to be so
the heart, and to make it sanguinary, as great fear ; and ac-
zealous a defender of the prerogatives of the crown, to a po.,
cordingly we find that the most inhuman tyranny has always
nishment so degrading and so abhorrent. And yet, if the law
had its foundation in the hearts of those whose actions con-
had existed, would it not have been executed? If it had
demned them to incessant terror. In a moment of alarm,
existed but a few years ago, would it not have been exe-
real or artificial, it is not to be wondered that nations, as well
cuted in many other instances; if juries could have been found
as individuals, should be lost to the dictates of reason and hu-
to second the wishes of government? Of the willingness of
manity. Ministers succeeded in spreading an alarm over this
government to go to the full extent of this inhuman law, Scot-
country, under the influence of which they made Englishmen
land has given us an indubitable proof. Scotland was said to
forget and forego their natural feelings of justice and humanity;
have had this barbarous law, though it had never been acted
but now that this time is happily past, I trust that we shall
upon. It was asserted, that there a law existed of so barba-
also recover our genuine feelings, and that we shall not suffer
rous a tendency, as to enable the judges to banish a man from
an* act to exist upon the statute book, so disgraceful to our
all civilized society, and condemn him to live at the extremity,
criminal code, and by which, in some future moment of pas- •
of the earth with the most degraded of his species. I am con-
sion, new acts of horror, under the name of judicial punish-
vinced, not merely on the authority of the most learned per-
ment, may be perpetrated.
sons of that country, but on the information that I have been
These are the two principal features of that act that merit
able to acquire for myself, that no such law did exist in
your attention. With respect to the other act, for the pre-
Scotland, and that those who acted upon it will one day
vention of seditious meetings and assemblies, without inquir-
be brought to a severe retribution for their conduct. But
ina whether the rights taken away by that act were proper
the apprehension of the existence of such a law has dis-
subjects of legislation, I may, at least, doubt the propriety of
played to us the character of our government, and proved
their being made so. The statute clearly affects rights which,
that we have a ministry capable of condemning their fel-
in their very nature and essence, must have been antecedent
low creatures to this monstrous punishment, for the mere
to the power of legislation, and it is not merely a question of
exposition of tenets on government different from their own.
morality, but of the highest political prudence, whether rights
They made it their boast, that by means of this law they had
that are principles, rights which make the foundation of the
.gained the triumph of political opinion, and the sacrifice of a
legislature itself, and without which no t,
leeislation can be legi-
number of human beings, of enlightened minds and of moral
timate, ought to be made the provisions of a statute. It is a
character, for the mere offence of carrying doctrines to excess
manifest axiom in a popular government, 'that man has the
for I admit, that in some instances they carried their doctrines
fundamental right to state his opinion; this right must be
to excess. The publication of political opinion ; that was
recognized, since it was on the exercise of this right that the
the crime. What was the punishment ? Death, of the most
government itself was formed. Need I illustrate the doctrine?
aggravated, of the most procrastinated, of the most cruel na-
It is recognized in the bill of rights. No man will deny that
ture. They were sent, not into banishment merely, but sunk
the right of petition to parliament is as inherent to the people
and degraded to an association with villany and ignorance
of England as the right of petition to the crown. Why,
and crime ; sent to a country where, possibly, their health
then , -did not the bill of rights state the one as well as the
might be affected by the climate ; but that was little in consi-
k of
other ? Why ? but because the one had been attacked and
deration of the despondency of their own feelings. I spea
questioned, not the other : and it has been truly said of the
one in particular of Mr. Gerald, whose elegant and useful
bill of rights, that it only asserted the privileges which had
attainments made hith dear to the circles of literature and
been o
hs accomplishments fitted
utraged; it did not enumerate all the rights which had
ta ; bred
t o enjoyments in whic,hi
taste
not come into dispute. But it is said, that this is not the first
him to participate, and endowed with talents that rendered
instance in which difficulties have been.thrown in the way
him valuable to his country, he, among others, was the object
?t' petition • and reference is made to the act of Charles IL
of this persecuting spirit; the punishment to such a man 05
in which distinction is made between assemblies convoked
certain death, and accordingly be sunk under the sentence,
1)31 the sheriff, persons entitled to the elective franchise,
sensibility. There maY be
the victim of virtuous, wounded
411d other persons. No argument, in my mind, can be so
times of alarm when men, under the influence of terror b
[May
THE TREASON AND SEDITION' DILLS.
334
MOTION FOR THE REPEAL OF
zj,
17973
33 5
•
dangerous as that which raises distinctions as to the right of
ewed all the formalities required by the statute. And what
H
petition. To say that those only enjoy the right of petition
the benefit expected to be derived from all this ? Are pro-
s
who possess the elective franchise, is to bring it into danger;
visions like these likely to alter the minds of men ? Are they
good sense would make the argument go the other way ; for
calculated to prevent communication, and stifle the opinions
surely if any description, of persons more than another ought
antI discontents of a people ? Hit were a new and an abstract
to enjoy the right of petition, it is those persons who, ha,;iin,
iestion, there might, perhaps, be a difference of opinion upon
no vote at elections, have no representatives in this House
the subject; but, unfortunately, a book is laid open to us, in
whom they can directly apply, and who may be made the or-
which we may read, in most legible characters, the true cha-
gan of their sentiments. But I deprecate and deplore these
racter and consequences of such a measure — that book is the
distinctions, since every class of the community ought to have
kingdom of Ireland. In the year 17 94 a convention bill was
this right secured to them, and be made as free to this privi-
passed in Ireland to prevent meetings of the people. 'What
lege as to the air they breathe. This act is outrageous, be-
was the consequence? Ministers boasted of the success of
cause it throws difficulties in the way of the exercise of the
the measure : they flattered themselves they had succeeded
right, and enables sheriffs to prevent meetings; and it has
in preventing meetings; but I have now the authority of
been proved, that since the passing of this act more refusals
the parliament of Ireland for saying that what they had•
prevented publicly had been done in private; and that ever
have, been given by magistrates than in any former period.
This has been particularly the case since recent calamities have
since the year 1791 meetings of the people had been held,
disposed the country to assemble so generally to petition for
which, up to the year 179 5 , were small and insignificant----
the dismission of ministers. Very extraordinary reasons have
small, because up to that time they still bad the power of meet-
been assigned by some of them for refusing to convoke meet-
ine in public, and discussing their grievances openly, and
ings. The sheriff of Suffolk refused, because the subject had
without reserve. Up to the year 1794, then, they were small
been debated in parliament, and because he was going to
and harmless — but then comes the convention bill, that forces
London. Another magistrate refused, though called upon
them into clandestine and secret meetings by midnight; then
by a numerous body of persons, because he would not disturb
comes correspondence with the foreign enemy, and all the
the unanimity of the county. The power of dispersing meet-
terrifying and alarming plots which the report of the House
ings was as obnoxious as the refusal to convoke them. In the
of Lords of Ireland has ascribed to the people of that dis-
county in which I live, the sheriff; after putting the question,
tracted country. 'What deplorable ignorance of the human
said, there was a visible majority of votes, but because he did
heart to think that, by a mere convention bill to prevent the
not know whether they were all freeholders that were present,
meetings without redressing grievances, they could make men
he refused to sign the proceedings, and give validity to the re-
forget by making them silent ! What criminal ignorance to
cord. Another person on this capricious objection could not
conceive that, by damming, up a torrent, it would not force
its way
take the chair, because the sheriff had the power to disperse
in another direction ! But it seems that, as. our act
the meeting; and thus an attempt was made to defeat the
has not yet produced the same effects in England, we must not
.
go
petition in the county of Surrey, even under the colour o
for instruction to the sister kingdom. I see no sense in
ally
complying with the statute. In many other cases difficulties
such argument : human nature is the same in all countries;
have been found that make it vexatious, and almost impossible,
you prevent a man who feels himself aggrieved from declar-
mg his
to exercise this right under the. provisions of this act. It re-
sentiments, you force him to other expedients for re-
dress•
quires so much trouble to comply with all the provisions of the
Do you think that you gain a proselyte where you
Silence
act, where the meeting is not called by the regular magistrate,
a declaimer ? No ; you have only by preventing the
decla
that it is next to an impossibility to carry the exercise of the,
ration of grievances in a constitutional way, forced men
t°
right generally into effect. In some instances, where Zeal
iriore pernicious modes of coming at relief. In pro-
Ion
n
and perseverance had conquered every obstacle, inconveni-
as opinions arc open, they are innocent and harmless.
/1
ences were suffered that would deter men on ordinary occasions
pinions become dangerous to a state only when perse-
e tiler
ietution
from assembling. In 'Westminster, for instance, wher
makes it necessary for the people to communicate their
day
", eas
meeting was called in strict conformity to the act, the
of
enat under the bond of' secrecy. Do you believe it possible
meeting was most unfavourable in point of weather, Is•a
the calamity which now rages in Ireland would have
Ille
found inconvenient to adjourn, because they r3
to its present height, if the people had been allowed to
•
336
MOTION FOR THE REPEAL OF
Ditty 23,
1197'3 TIIE TREASON AND SEDITION BILLS. 337
meet and divulge their grievances? Publicity makes it jol.
ou r strength, by indisposing all that part of the nation whose
possible for artifice to succeed, and designs of a hostile nature
hearts glow with ardour for their original rights, but who
lose their danger by the certainty of exposure. But it is
feel with indignation that they are trampled upon and over-
said that these bills will expire in a few years; that, they win
thrown? Is not this a moment when, in addition to every
expire when we shall have peace and tranquillity restored to
other emotion, freedom should be roused as an ally, a sup-
to us. What a sentiment to inculcate ! You tell the people
lementa •y force, and a substitute for all the other weak and
that when every thing goes well, when they are happy onj
fnefiicient levies that have been suggested in its stead ? Have
comfortable, then they may meet freely, to recognize their
we not been nearly reduced to a situation, when it was too
happiness, and pass culogiums on their government; but
perilous, perhaps, to take the right course ? May we not be
that in a moment of war and calamity, of distrust and mis-
again called upon for exertions that will demand the union of
conduct, it is not permitted them to meet together, because
every hand and every heart in the kingdom ? What might
then, instead of eulogizing, they might think proper to con-
Pot this House do, if this House had the opinion of the
demn ministers. What a mockery is this ! What an insult
country with it ? Do not let us say, then, that we are to
to say that this is preserving to the people the right of pe_
increase the force of the country by stifling opinion. It is
tition ! To tell them that they shall have a tight to applaud,
only by promoting it, by giving facility to its expression, by
a right to rejoice, a right to meet when they arc happy, but
meeting it with open hearts, by incorporating ourselves with
not a right to condemn, not a right to deplore their mis-
the sense of the nation, that we can again revive that firm
fortunes, not a right to suggest a remedy ! I hate these
and compact power of British strength, that sprung out of
insidious modes of undermining and libelling the constitution
British liberty.
of the country. If you mean to say, that the mixed and
Sir, I will not trouble you with more on the subject. In
balanced government of England is good only for holidays
proportion as you throw difficulties in the Way of petition,
and sunshine, but that it is inapplicable to a day of distress
you deprive yourselves of strength; you alienate every heart
and difficulty, say so. If you mean that freedom is not as
whose voice you stifle; you drive men to correspondence with
conducive to order and strength as it is to happiness, say so;
foreign nations, when you debar them from corresponding
and I will enter the lists with you, and contend, that among
with you ; and this, if we may believe the report of the Irish
all the other advantages arising from liberty, are the ad-
parliament, was the case with Ireland. When she petitioned,
vantages of order and strength in a supereminent degree, and
addressed, and remonstrated, she had no power, but from
that too, in the moment when they arc most wanted. Liberty
small beginnings, that is small, until a convention bill had
is order. Liberty is strength. Good God, Sir, am I, on this
passed, until a powder bill had passed, and all the other
day, to be called upon to illustrate the glorious and soothing
acts of insanity and rigour, she rose from small meetings of
doctrine? Look round the world and admire, as you must,
mere petition, to a concerted, armed, and embodied union
the instructive spectacle ! You will see that liberty not only
of one hundred thousand persons. Good God ! shall we not,
predonn-
is power and order, but that it is power and order
possessing
the same language, possessin the same character,
ts,
nant and invincible; that it derides all other sources of
o
str
strusghgallitbrile
uggling
g forthe same constitution, take warning from the
strength; that the heart of man has no impulse, and ca.n.
example that is set, and conciliate the people of England ?
have none that dares to stand in competition with it; and lit
with our eyes open, run upon our destiny, as
as Englishmen, we know how to respect its value, surely the
antient fables. tell of men devoted running into the jaws of
present is the moment of all others, when we ought to secure
ittlhiesi)teir:ition to which they were doomed ? Sir,. the present
its invigorating alliance. Whether we look at our relatio
times hold out examples too legible for mistake.. If demon-
situation with regard to foreign powers, with regard tope
strati shall
shall fail to work upon us, we are undone; and if
situation of the sister kingdom, and with regard to ouryl
my truth has been more strikingly illustrated than another,
internal affairs, there never was a moment when nations
that you shall not touch the liberty of the lower
strength was so much demanded, and when it was so inct;
s
seasses of the people without making the higher orders pay a
bent upon us to call forth and embody all the vigour of
retribution. You shall not take away one privilege,
nation, by rousing, animating, and embodying all the love °I
shail not diminish one right, without suffering ten-fold,
liberty that used to characterize the country, and whie;Nli
chtY-
, fold
an hundred-fold yourselves. You shall not commit
trust, is not.yet totally extinct. Is this a moment to (11011'
anges upon the people without changing your own power
-
16
von. `upon
. 3 3 8
NOTION FOR THE REPEAL, &C.
[May 23,
1 MOTION FOR A REFORM IN PARLIAMENT.
339
797 '.'
into weakness, your economy into profusion. These are the
doctrines applicable to these times. As men become en_
lightened, they advance in liberty ; in that career seldom are
any found retrograde; and in proportion to their advances
you must concede to them. It has been said, as an argue eat
,Ia . GREY'S MOTION FOR A REFORM IN PARLIAMENT.
u
aainst the emancipation of slaves, that the negroes are not
sufficiently enlightened for freedom. The French Mulat.
May 26.
toes, it is owned, are more capable of enjoying it; and
passing from them to the most enslaved nations of Europe;
,T.R. Grey, in pursuance of previous notice, moved this day,
we see that the approach of light makes it necessary for tile
That leave be given to bri