SPEECHES
}

SPEECHES
OF


THE RIGHT HONOURABLE


CHARLES JAMES FOX.


VOL. II.




THE


SPEECHES


or.


THE RIGHT HONOURABLE


CHARLES JAMES FOX,


IN THE


HOUSE OF COMMONS.


IN SIX VOLUMES.


VOL. II.


DEL


DE TOTO


LONDON:


Strahan :ma Preston,
Frio Ws-Street, London.


PRINTED FOR LONGMAN', HURST, REES, ORME, AND BROWN,
PATERNOSTER-ROW;


AND J. RIDGWAY, PICCADILLY.




CONTENTS


OF


THE SECOND VOLUME.


1782.
Page


Jan. 24. Mr. Fox's Motion for an Enquiry into the ill
Success of the British Navy .....................


Feb. 7. The Same ....................... • 0.• ...... ••• ...... ••• ••• 19
13. The Same 2 6•• ...... •I•
20. The Same 27
22. General Conway's Motions for putting an end


to the American War ...... ...... 29


March 27.
The Same
30


4. The Same
32


The Attorney General's Bill for enabling the
King to conclude a Peace or Truce with the
revolted Colonies in North America ......


37
8. Lord John Cavendish's Motion of Censure on


His Majesty's Ministers 39
15. Sir John Rous's Motion for withdrawing the


Confidence of Parliament from His Ma-
jesty's Ministers 43


2o. Change of Ministry ................ .........
46


List of the Rockingham Administration 48
April 8. Affairs of Ireland ......... ............ ...... 49


9. The Same
57


May 1 7 . The Same
59


7. Mr. William Pitt's Motion on the State of the
Representation


67
June 19. Lord Mahon's Bill for preventing,


Bribery and
Expence at Elections ...... .......... .....


69
July 9. Death of the Marquis of Rockingham — Resig-


nation of Mr. Fox Change of Ministry


71
List of the Shelburne Administration ...... gz


Dec. 5. Address on the King's Speech at the Opening
of the Session. 92


s8. Mr. Fox's Motion for such of the Articles of
the Provisional Treaty with America, as relate
to the Recognition of the Independency of
the United States Os" ts•e vas ......... es6 .. .... osset0 109




vi CONTENTS.


Page
Bill for removing Doubts concerning the exclu-


sive Rights of the Parliament and Courts of
Ireland in Matters of Legislation and Judi-
cature ************ n ••••• OI• ******** ••••••• • OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO et. 114


Feb. 17. Address on the Preliminary Articles of Peace ... 119
19. The Same 125
21.


.... ••••••.•-••••• .• •• ................


List of the New Administration .....................
27. Williams's Divorce Bill


April16. Terms of the Loan ....... ..... ....... ............




25. The Same
May 7. Mr. Pitt's Motion for a Reform in Parliament
July 4. Bill for regulating certain Offices in the Ex-




chequer
Public Accountants


Nov. II. Address on the King's Speech at the Opening
of the Session


Mr. Fox's East India




The Same




The Same




The Same
Dec. i. The Same




8. The Same




17. The Same
Copy of Mr. Fox's Bill for vesting the Affairs of


the East India Company in the Hands of cer-
tain Commissioners, for the Benefit of the
Proprietors and the Public


Copy of Mr. Fox's Bill for the better Govern-
ment of the Territorial Possessions and De-
pendencies in India


19. List of the New Administration
Change of Ministry - Earl Temple's Resig-


nation - Address to the King not to dissolve
the Parliament-The King's Answer




22. The Same
24.






The Same ............................... ..........................
II


1784.


CONTENTS.
vii


Page
12. Mr. Fox's Motion for resuming the Committee


on the State of the Nation 313
14. Mr. Pitt's East India Bill 324
16. The Same 334
23. The Same 335
16. Lord Charles Spencer's Motion for the Removal


of Ministers 343
20. The Same 348
26. Mr. Eden's Motion to obstruct a Dissolution of


Parliament 354
29. Mr. Fox's Motion to adjourn the Committee on


the State of the Nation 358
Feb. 2. Mr. Grosvenor's Motion for an Efficient, Ex-


. tended, and United Administration
365


Mr. Coke's Motion against the Continuance of
the present Ministers in their Offices


377
Resolution of the St. Alban's Association against


the Exclusion of either Party in forming a
New Ministry 381


IS. The King's Refusal to dismiss his Ministers -
Postponement of the Supplies


38720. Mr. Powys's Motion, That the House relies on
the King's Readiness to form an United and
Efficient Administration


397
"March 1. Mr. Fox's Motion for an Address to the King


to remove his Ministers
414


4. The Same 4275. The Same
429


8. Mr. Fox's Motion for a Representation to the
King on the State of Public Affairs


43125. Dissolution
of Parliament - Mr. Fox's Ad-


May


June


24.
25.
8.


dresses to the Electors of Westminster


Westminster Scrutiny ........,


The Same


The Same


437
437
443
451


.16. Mr. Alderman Sawbridge's Motion for a Re-
form of the Representation of the Commons
in Parliament
49018. Motion for a Repeal of the Receipt 495


27S3.


Jan. 22.


Lord John Cavendish's Resolutions of Cen-
sure on the Terms of the Peace


March 5. Coalition of Mr. Fox and Lord North - Re-
signation of the Earl of Shelburne -New
M inistry OOOOOO ••• ...... •••••••••• ........... **Op. .......


TheSame ......... ......... ............... ......... ......... .
TheSame ....... ..... .............,. ...............
The Same


6.
24.
31.


126


142
143
150
258
163
163
166
17o
171


175
182


185
IS.
20.
z6.
27.


Bills 196
214
218
220


237
261
264


283


291


304


303
307
315




CHARLES JAMES FOX,
(^


SPEECHES


RIGHT HONOURABLE


C. (S'c°


OF THE


MR. Fox's MOTION FOR AN ENQUIRY INTO THE ILL SUCCESS
OF THE BRITISH NAVY.


January 24. 1782.




HE first object that engaged the attention of parliament after
the Christmas recess, was the long meditated enquiry into


the conduct of the first lord of the admiralty. In pursuance of
the notice he had given,


Mr. Fox rose. He began with saying, that he was per-
fectly convinced of the difficulty of the undertaking, and
also of the general impropriety of instituting an enquiry into
the conduct of men intrusted with the powers and influence
of govermnent. It was always ineligible and at times dan-
gerous; for the men intrusted with the powers of the admi-
nistration had it in their power to rise superior to the
impotence of inquiry, however just ; and by means of the
influence and the strength of office were able to crush the
efforts of those who endeavoured to expose their misconduct.
Gentlemen were, therefore, averse from the institution of
inquiries, and they were seldom made, because they were
seldom productive of advantage to the public. In such an
inquiry the evidence was in the hands of the persons accused;
they had it in their power to manage it as they pleased, and
without the evidence of office, it was not to be expected that
any benefit could arise from inquiry. That influence, there-
fore, exerted in favour of a,minister to be accused, ought to
deter any man from accusing a person so shielded, so pro-
tected. But of all the ministers in the cabinet, there was not


VOL.




If


MOTION FOR AN ENQUIRY INTO [Jam 24.


one more formidable, perhaps not one so formidable from.
influence, as the Earl of Sandwich : his situation gave him
the influence of a whole. profession ; as a cabinet minister, he
of course would find himself supported by the influence of his
colleagues ; but the noble earl had, independent of those two
sources of influence, another, which though not equal to that
of the crown, was a powerful addition to it ; and with it,
sufficient to crush any member who should bring charges
against him: this influence he derived from the East India
company.It was easy, then, to foresee that he was about to under-
take an arduous task indeed. But all this he was ready and
prepared to encounter in this case; at the same time that he
was convinced that this was not the way which, in more
virtuous and vigorous times, a subject of this sort would be
taken up. He was convinced that, as a prelude to an in-
quiry, he ought to move for an address to the king, to
remove the Earl of Sandwich from his councils. If there
was nerve, honesty, and independence in that House, that
would be ;he mode in which they would set about this busi-
ness ; but the evil effects of that influence which he had
mentioned were, that they had poisoned the understanding
as well as the heart of that House. Gentlemen forgot what
was right and necessary, and adopted, with their eyes open,
what was wrong and nugatory; such was the habit of that
House, that it would be an idle attempt to endeavour to
convince them that there was a manifest and an essential
distinction between a motion of removal, and an implication
of censure. Gentlemen had adopted an idea, that to move
for an address. to remove a minister, was to act unfairly ; that
it was to condemn a servant of the public unheard, and to
proceed to pass sentence without allowing him to make his
own


defence. Nothing could be more absurd, more flake,
and more foolish than this idea: but he wondered not that
it prevailed, for ministers entertained the same idea them-
selves. Being men of less property than official emolument;.
for such now were the extravagant incomes of placdmen,
that their salaries and douceurs must be superior to their
private estates ; they clung to their offices, and considered
them as so rich and valuable, that at last they blended them
with inheritance, and looked upon them as sacred franchises,
in the possession of which they were secured by the law of .
the land.The contrary of this the honourable gentleman particularly
insisted upon. In his opinion, there was no occasion to
criminate a minister, in order to address the throne for his.
to naval from office. It was sufficient that he was incapable,


1182.] .


THE ILL SUCCESS OF THE NAVY.
3


fortunate, or disliked. Either of these cases were


1:iiillo.° N,tling1,11 .in which there was perhaps nothing dishonourable,
to warrant an address to the sovereign for his re-


and in which there was frequently something very much to
the credit of the minister removed. The parliament had, at
all times, an undoubted right to request that any servant of
the crown might be discontinued merely upon disliking him ;
it was by no means unreasonable. Had a minister a right
to his place for life, as to a freehold? or was he only a
servant of the public ? If he was their servant, why should
the public have less power over their servants than private
individuals had over those domestics whom they paid for their
services ? If the public thought proper not to employ their
servants any longer, had they not a right to dismiss them,
without incurring the charge of injustice ? Undoubtedly
they possessed this right ; and whoever should urge that it
would be unjust to exercise it, must necessarily deny the right
itself:


He would go farther, however, and contend, that not only
it would not be unjust, but that in many cases, as in the present,
it would be expedient to exercise this right; for the moment
a minister ceases to enjoy the confidence of the public, that
moment he ought to be removed ; nay, though be should be
a meritorious servant, and an able minister ; for in every
government there must be a confidence reposed in the ser-
vants of the crown by the people; or else the business of the
state can never be carried on with any degree of success :
and though the people should be whimsical and capricious
in their dislike of any minister, yet it never could be con-
sonant to sound policy to keep him in office against 'the
opinion and wishes of the people. The public had long since
withdrawn their confidence from Lord Sandwich, (if he
indeed ever had been honoured with it,) and therefore for this
reason alone, if not for one of the thousand others he could
urge, he ought to be removed : he trusted, therefore, that he
should hear no more of the injustice and hardship of removing
a minister, without having first given him a fair trial.


Holding it, therefore, as a general principle of policy,that a 1110I10/1 of removal was the proper step to be taken, andpr
udentially deeming an inquiry, as he had already declared,


to be not the most fit measure to be taken with a minister
while in place; such was the situation of affairs, and such
tiiiifeenclitiaiiitotetis:isconduct and ill success of our naval force, that
he felt himself obliged, under all the difficulties, the obvious


othfattnwoinulciryduiattend his endeavours, to be himself
into the conduct of the Earl of1̀11(Isvicil• Thus knowinc, and avowing what was right, he


13 2




4 MOTION FOR AN ENQUIRY INTO [Jan. 24-


was about to do what he had declared to be wrong, at least
wrong in some degree. From what the noble lord in the
blue ribbon had said before the recess, when gentlemen talked
of the first lord of the admiralty, " that they could only
accuse hire before the inquiry, but would not charge him
with the same crimes afterwards," it would be expected, that
the noble lord should himself be the first man to bring on the
inquiry. It was very true that he ought to do so. But he
was not displeased that he had not done it, for if it had been
taken up by that noble lord, he should have believed that it
would be conducted, as every thing was conducted which he
took in band, with fraud or imbecility ; and that it would be
calculated either to do nothing, or to do mischief. There
was, however, one thing which would be naturally expected
from the mble lord, after so much boasting and gallantry;
that he should give to the House the means of a full and
fair investigation of the conduct of the admiralty. If he
denied the necessary intelligence ; if he withheld papers,
and starved the trial ; the House would then say, that he, and
not the persons who attacked Lord Sandwich, hazarded ex-
pressions which he could not prove, and was bolder in giving
the challenge than in fighting the battle.


It had been said of the Opposition, and it was a charge
`of which they must clear themselves, that they brought on
the inquiry, in order to preserve the Earl of Sandwich in
his place; for that if the Opposition had not strove to turn
him out, he would have been so long before this time. This
was a very curious charge. They had been said to be in
league with Dr. Franklin, with the Americans, and even.
with the French and Spaniards. They were charged with
having contributed to the independence of America; but
all this was nothing in comparison with the charge Which
was now alledged against them; that they were in league
with the arch enemy who had robbed us of so much valuable
dominion, — the dominion of the ocean. - Better would it be
for Great Britain, were they to have supported America,
France, Spain, and Holland, than to have linked with the
present ministry, without whose uniform aid Dr. Franklin
might have been wise, General 'Washington brave, Maure-
pas, De Sartine, and M. de Castres, vigilant, crafty, and poli-
tic, America firm, the house of Bourbon full of resources,
of vigour and of energy, and Holland proved a powerful
ally to the house of Bourbon in vain ! The honourable
gentleman spoke particularly to this point. It was said, not
by the gentlemen with whom he had the honour to act, but
by the very men, who, in case of a division, would rote in
favour of the Ear3 of Sandwich, that there was an obstinacy


1782.]


THE ILL SUCCESS OF THE NAVY.
5


somewhere, that would oppose whatever was undertaken or
suggested by the gentlemen in opposition : that Lord Sand-
wich would have been turned out of place, had not Opposi-
tion desired it; and that whatever plan was in agitation, if
it were a wise one, and approved of by that side of the
House, it would be instantly altered; if it was a bad one, and
condemned, it would be persevered in, and executed. He
could not tell whether there was such a spirit of obstinacy in
existence or not; but he knew that those men, who in their
hearts desired to see the Earl. of Sandwich out of place, and
who sincerely thought him incapable of holding it with honour,
or even with safety to his country, and yet came down to the
House and voted to save him, were too bad for any society,
much less for the important trust which they held, of repre-
senting a free people. It proved to him the truth of that
declaration which the House made on the 6th of April, f78o,
that the influence of the crown had increased, was increasing,
and ought to be diminished. But he desired it to be under-
stood and believed, that though they brought on the question for
an inquiry into the conduct of the first lord of the admiralty,
they had no intention of fixing him in his seat; if lie should
be secured by their endeavours to turn him out, they could
only lament that obstinacy which they had it not in their
power to subdue. They did their duty in warning their
country of the consequences of his administration of our
naval affairs; they spoke of his repeated errors and crimes,
exposed them to view, and endeavoured to procure his dis-
charge; and they did this in the honest and upright intention
of saving the empire from the farther effects of his miserable
system. He begged, therefore, that it might not be im-
puted to them, that they wished to fix him in his seat; nothing
was farther from their intention, and he trusted that those
gentlemen who had spoken as he had said, 'and who wished
for the good of their country, that the Earl of Sandwich was
removed from office, would now be honest enough to hold.
the same language within doors that they held without, and
act with the same vigour that they spoke.


The honourable gentleman now proceeded to the matter
of the inquiry. He said, that it naturally was divided into
two distinct heads; the one,- whether the first lord of the
admiralty had the means of procuring a navy equal to the
occasions of the state ? and secondly, whether he had em-
ployed the force which he really had to the necessary services
with wisdom and ability? As to the first, he did not mean
to introduce it into the inquiry


r
• for though it was very true113 ,


that there were many occasions, in which he could prove
that the first lord of the admiralty had neglected his duty in


13 3




6 MOTION FOR AN ENQUIRY INTO [Jan. 24.
this respect, yet, as it would require so much detail of proof;
and bring forward so many office-witnesses, witnesses all
under the patronage of the noble lord himself, he did not
wish to lead the House to this part of the subject. If the
inquiry was to be continued for so great a length of time as
would necessarily be required for going into that part of the
subject, he saw no probability of gentlemen giving it atten-
tion. There was an indifference in that House almost
invincible; and therefore the only prospect that he could have
of the inquiry being regarded was, that it would not be
tedious nor perplexing. If the first consideration was taken
tip, it must be so : there would be great difficulty in ascer-
taining the facts, and the Housowould be obliged frequently
to resort to opinion and speculation on which it would not be
fair to ground censure or punishment. But' though he did
not take up this part of the question, he begged that no gen-•
tleman would suppose that he thought the first lord of the
admiralty less criminal here than under the second head ;
he was convinced of the contrary. There were many egre-
gious faults, and such as every gentleman, whether intimate
With naval matters or not, must fully comprehend.


The navy of this country was confessedly inadequate to
our occasions. It was not the question, whether it was equal
to the navy which Lord Hawke left when he went out of
office, though he could prove that the fleet, at the second
year of the war, was not nearly equal to that of the year
175 9 ; but it was with the state of the French and Spanish
navy that the comparison ought to be made. It was the duty
of the first lord of the admiralty to prepare a fleet able to
cope with that of the enemy, whatever it might be; and
when he saw equipments going on in the French and Spanish
marine, it was his business, and it was his indispensable duty
to take the alarm, and exert the powers of this country for
our defence. Would any man venture to say that the means
had been denied him? Would any man venture to slander the
House of Commons with the charge of parsimony? Surely
none would. It might safely and truly be imputed to them
that they had been- lavish and wasteful, in cases where ex-
pence was not wanted, or where it was improper: but no
man would say of them that they had been fastidious or nar-
row; that they had denied useful sums, or crippled the ne-
cessary service. As the nation had felt ail the hardships of
extravagance, it might certainly have been expected that
they should have reaped also some of the benefits. This,
however, had not been the case. The Earl of Sandwich had
procured lavish grants; he had the command of the national
purse, but he bad failed to provide for his country a fleet


1782.] THE ILL SUCCESS OF THE NAVY. 7


equal to the necessities of the state, or equal to the strength
of the enemy. He had said, however, that he did not mean
to go into this branch of the question. The examinations
which it would require, would be intricate ; the accounts
given by men in office would be unintelligible to many gen-
tlemen, and would be rendered obscure to all, by means of
the artifices of the admiralty. He wished to confine the
inquiry to that which every gentleman would be competent
to discuss, and he Promised the House that there would be
ample matter for discussion.


The branch of the question then, to which he wished to
call their attentioe was, whether the first lord of the admi-
ralty had directed the force -of this country, with wisdom and
effect, to the necessary objects of the war? Before he pro-
ceeded to this he must clear a little ground. A doubt had
been raised about the nature and extent of responsibility;
knowing, and believing, that all his majesty's ministers were
guilty of the dismemberment of the empire, and of the cala-
mities with which we were surrounded, it was to him a.
matter of indifference on whom the consequences of the
inquiry should light; whether it should be the first lord of
the admiralty, or the first lord of the treasury, or on either
or all of the secretaries of state. He thought them all guilty,
and punishment could not fail to be just, if it fell on either;
but he must pay regard to the constitution. Our consti-
tution, then, pointed out the particular minister who was
bound to give advice to his sovereign in naval concerns, and
who was consequently responsible for naval measures. That
minister was the first lord of the admiralty. A subaltern
commissioner of that board, and which he once had the
honour himself to be, would be bound, if he should receive
an order, from a secretary of state, to send a number of
ships, with a particular commander, on any given expedi-
tion, to execute that order strictly and literally, without pre-
suming to examine the propriety or the wisdom of the mea-
sure. He could not argue on the point, because he had
not the means of judging. He knew not the grounds on
which the order was made. He knew not the intelligence,
and he ought not to know it, nor the facts, nor the argu-
ments, nor the reasoning on which it bad been adopted by
the cabinet. It was, therefore, his immediate duty to obey
the mandate; but if the order had been sent by the same se-
cretary of state to the first lord of the admiralty, the case was
very different. He, as well as the secretary, was a counsellor
of the king, and he knew, or ought to know, all,the-grounds




ognroNuvuliclswhich,1 the order was made. If; therefore, knowing these
he disapproved of the measure; if he considered it


4




8 MOTION FOR AN ENQUIRY INTO [Jan. 24..
as inconvenient or dangerous, it was his duty, and he was
bound to disobey it. It was a power necessary to his office,
to exercise his discretion in every measure which he executed,
since without discretion there could be no responsibility.
This was the true constitutional doctrine, and it was this
which would give firmness and stability to our government,
if left. unshackled by influence. But it was no wonder, that
a noble lord (Mulgrave) should by the circumstances of his
situation, his friendship, his familiarity, and other reasons,
he apt to confound the minister with the subaltern, and
speak with some confusion on the subject of responsibility,
since he might, though only an inferior lord of that board,
fancy himself, in the House of Commons,, the prime minister
of the Admiralty.


The honourable gentleman now entered into an enumera-
tion of the instances of mismanagement of our navy, which
had occurred in the course of the last five years, by which
the House would see what were the particular points to
which he meant to call their attention in the proposed en-
quiry. This he did with that historical precision and accu-
racy for which he is remarked, beginning with the com-
mencement of hostilities between this country and France,
and tracing the naval minister through all the series of his
measures year by year. We cannot presume to follow him
with correctness. He said, that as early as the year 1776
his majesty's ministers must have supposed that France
would interfere in our contest for America. He took this
for granted, because at so early a date they applied to his
honourable friend, Admiral Koppel, to know whether he
would take upon him an important naval command. From
this application he collected the circumstance of their ,appre-
hension of a French war, because knowing the sentiments of
that great admiral on the subject of the American question,
they could not presume to offer him an appointment to fight
against the Americans. He did not mean to say, that
because Admiral Keppel would not fight against the Ame.
ricans, those officers were guilty who had accepted of com-
mands against them. God forbid 1 Many gallant gentlemen
had been employed in that service from mistaken principles
of discipline, and some from an early conviction of the recti-
tude of our cause. lie only meant to say, that Admiral
Keppel, with his sentiments on that question, would have
been unpardonable if he had accepted of a command. The
ministry then knew so early as 1776, that the French would
interfere, and from that moment at least, if not before, they
ought to have begun their equipments to act with deeision
against France in the beginning of the war. At that time a


1732.] THE ILL SUCCESS OF THE NAVY. 9


very worthy and industrious friend of his, Mr. Temple Lut-
trell, knowing that the first thing a statesman had to do,
before he embarks in a war, is to examine whether his ,means
are sufficient for carrying it on, moved in his place, that the
navy of England in its then state, was inadequate to the exi-
zsencies of the empire. This motion, Mr. Fox said, he had
the honour to second; but, though obviously founded in truth,
it was rejected by a majority : ministers then boasted of the
formidable and still growing state of the navy, and parlia-
ment and the nation at large were given to understand, that
we actually had, at that time, a naval force equal to every
possible exigency of the state. At the same time the House
was told from the treasury bench, that if it were not the
case, it would be impolitic and dangerous to publish it to the
world. What truth there was in such assertions experience
soon pointed out, and the public found that the assertions of
ministers, and the flattering picture drawn by them of the
navy of England, were illusive. For so far had a noble lord
in office gone, (Lord Mulgrave,) that in the present session of
parliament he had asserted not only that we were inferior to
France at sea; but that it was in the nature of things
absolutely impossible that we should be equal to her, when-
ever she should turn her thoughts entirely to our marine:
here the illusion ended; and here we were undeceived by
ministers; the motion he alluded to, had this tendency, to
make ministers reflect beforehand, and consider the strength
of France and England, before we should break with the
French; and after they should have, by mature deliberation,
discovered what must be their own inferiority in a contest
with America and France united, to persuade them to make
peace with America, and, by so doing, either prevent the
war with France, or be enabled to bring our whole force
against her, and crush her navy at a blow. If this had been
done, that country, which used to be stiled the British empire
in America, might be, perhaps, independant; but it would
not have been French.


But the circumstance to which he wished to allude in this
matter was the bold contrast which there was in the language
of gentlemen on the opposite side of the House. In 1776,
before we went to war, it was declared to be impolitic and
dangerous to say that our navy was inferior to that of the
enemy; even if it should really be so, we must not venture
to speak the truth. But in 1 7 81, a member of the board of


the fourth year
declares in the face of the whole world, during


of a war with France and Spain, that our
navy was not only inferior, but that it must necessarily be
inferior to that of the enem y, at all times when the enemy




10 MOTION TOR AN ENQUIRY INTO
[Jan. 243


pleased. The gentlemen in opposition were blamed fog
giving improper intelligence to the enemy in the year 1776.
The noble lord of the Admiralty was, no doubt, praised for
giving them intelligence in the year 1781. It was dange-r, -
rous before we went to war to tell the French and Spaniards
what we thought of our force : it was perfectly safe to in-
form them of it when we were involved in a war with them,
and surrounded in a manner unprecedented in English history.
The noble lord talked of the despondency of not looking our
misfortunes in the face but mark the difference of the noble
lord's conduct and his words. We must not look our mis-
fortunes in the face, nor examine our situation with steady,
resolute minds, when examination would be advantageous,
because seasonable ; when by examination we might have pre-
vented the calamities that ensued ; but we must examine and
publish our weakness to all the world ; nay, we must go out
of the way, and without being called or solicited, inform our
enemies at the very moment when they are ready to attack
us in every quarter of the world, that we are inferior to them,
and must he so ! It seemed all the way through the present
administration, that the ministers, as if they had been really
the servants of France, thought only of the best means of in-
volving us in wars, but took no pains to bring us out of them
ag, iain. They kept their weakness concealed tillt was too late
for the people to know it, and then they were the first them-
selves to reveal it.


But they knew so early as 1776 of the approaching Am
rican war, and that we should have occasion to prepare for
the rupture with all the industry, skill, and zeal, which we
could exert. How did they do this ? They sent all the fri-
gates of England to the American seas, for the great national
purpose of destroyingthe American trade. This was an ob-
ject so much at heart, that they not only sent all their fri-
gates to America, leaving the European seas totally unpro-
vided with small ships, but they also employed the line of
battle ships during the whole of the winter of 1778 in cruiz,
ing, for the purpose of making captures of American traders :
even in the very moment when the treaty was signing between
France and America, were the large ships of Britain tossing
about in the seas, encountering all the dangers and injuries
of winter storms, for the sake of pillaging American craft.
What was the consequence? They were torn to pieces; and
in the beginning of the campaign, when Admiral Keppel went
down to take upon him the command of the grand fleet,
he found but six ships ready for sea, although it was a well-
known, notorious fact, that the Earl of Sandwich had, in his
place in the House of Peers, declared some weeks before, that


1782.3 THE ILL SUCCESS OF THE NAVY. I t


there were between thirty and forty line-of-battle ships ready
for sea. This plan of cruising in the winter had been the fa-
vourite measure of his majesty's ministers, and had contri-
buted more than any thing else to the lateness of all our ex-
peditions. by which he had always been behind-hand with the
enemy; 'for the consequence was, that from the damages
which they sustained, and which were almost inseparable from
a channel cruize, they were sent into dock to be repaired, at
a time when it became known that the French were arming
as fast as possible : had these ships been in readiness, which
they might have been, if they had not been employed in a
service that ought properly to have been performed by fri-
gates, we might have insisted that the French should have
immediately disarmed, or we might have fallen upon them be-
fore they were prepared, and so have crushed them before
they would have been able to strike a blow.


This was the cause of that shameful deficiency which Ad-
miral Keppel found when he went down in March, 1778,
and found only six ships of the line fit for sea. Thus, to use
an expression to which he supposed the admiralty would not
object, " a glorious opportunity was lost" of striking an ef-
fectual blow at the French navy, and crushing them by a
decisive stroke in the infancy of the war ; for had Admiral
Keppel been sent to sea with his squadron at an early period
of the campaign, what might not have been the conse-
quence ? Instead of this, he was detained, -as if this faithful
servant of the king of France, the first lord of the admi-
ralty, was waiting till the French were ready to meet us.
Then, and not till then, he sent Admiral Keppel to sea with
twenty ships to fight twenty-seven, an odds so formidable,
as, in fact, to endanger the very existence of the empire.
When he sailed with twenty ships, he was given to under-
stand that his force was superior to any that the enemy had
to bring against him ; and he believed them; but what was
his disappointment, what must have been his indignation,
at finding that the enemy, contrary to his expectations, had
twenty-seven sail of the line at sea ? Here they imposed on
their commander ; but it was their vanity in having a fleet
in the channel, that made them impose upon him : had they
been as di
nt as they were vain of this parade, they might
a


linehave had sufficient force under Admiral Keppel, to have
destroyed the French navy at a blow ; and thus have pre-
vented all the disgraces and disasters that have since -be-


iecaienitielcliigteince of the equipment of a squadron at Toulon
country some months before that squadron


was ready to sail ; it was known here that some persons-of




I


12 MOTION FOR AN ENQUIRY INTO •
[Jan. 24.


distinction were to embark in it as passengers : this and a
• variety of other circumstances pointed out, beyond a doubt,
that America was the quarter to which this armament was
destined : and yet though all England knew this ; though
the preparations were public during the months of January,
February, March, and April, yet not a syllable of this had
been sent to Lord Howe in America till the middle of June,
at least the dispatches were dated the 6th of May. Nay, so
far had the ministers been from giving Lord Howe notice of
his danger, before the date of these dispatches, that they
had even sent him orders to detach a part of his force to the
West Indies. He was just preparing to execute this order,
when he heard, but not from ministry, of the expected ar-
rival of Count d'Estaing in those seas. He then, with that
manly foresight, which distinguishes an able commander;
kept his force together, and by a singular effort of genius
vtnd naval skill, preserved his fleet and the army by an ar-
rangement which would place his name among the most cele-
brated of our British admirals. Such were the dispositions
made by his lordship, such the spirit and abilities displayed
by him against Count d'Estaing, that he defeated that officer
with a very inferior force ; or if he did not literally gain
a victory over him, at least he gained the substance of one ;
fortunately, indeed, for his own honour, but unfortunately-,
perhaps, for this country ; for if the army that was saved by
this victory had been captured, we should not at this day
have such a load of debt upon our shoulders and have lost so
many armies, for our ministers would have been obliged to
make peace with America. By the winter's cruize of our
two-deck ships in the Channel, and the subsequent repairs,
Admiral Byron was prevented from sailing time enough to
dispute the passage of the ,


Mediterranean with Count
d'Estaing ; and the same cause continuing to operate, together
with the absurdity of our ministers, we were not able after,
wards to prevent the sailing of M. de Grasse and M. de Ia
Motte Piquet, with reinforcements to Count d'Estaing ;
the consequence was, that Admiral Byron had the mortifi-
cation to arrive time enougheto see Grenada taken, our most
valuable settlement in the 'West Indies after Jamaica. As
dilatory in instructing and strengthening the hands of their
officers abroad, as they were in fitting oat the ships at home,
the ministers had ordered Admiral Barrington to wait at Bar-
badoes till he should be reinforced : he, too, from superior
information, ventured to disobey these orders, and saved St.
Lucia ; but so slow were ministers in sending out reinforce-
ments. that had Commodore Hotham arrived only one day
-later than he did, St. Lucia would have been lost : he de-


1782.] .THE ILL SUCCESS OF THE NAVY.


fended it, indeed, in a manner which would do him and his
country honour, while bravery and abilities should be es-
teemed in the world: he defended the island with a force
more than three times less than that of the enemy ; and yet,
exclaimed Mr. Fox, Admiral Barrington is now on shore !
He must speak a little on that circumstance. The admiral
was said to have come on shore because he would not accept
of the principal command of the fleet.


When he had spoken in debate of the number of brave
officers who were driven by the Earl of Sandwich from the
service, and it had been a subject of conversation, Lord Howe
desired that no gentleman would give reasons fbr his conduct.
This had been erroneously supposed to apply to what had fal-
len from him. In fact, it came from the noble lord on ac-
count of the reason which Lord Lisburne gave fbr Admiral •
Barrington's retiring; it was, his lordship said, because he
had weak nerves. This gave a pretty good idea of the reason
of so many brave men withdrawing themselves from the ser-
vice. Had Admiral Barrington weak nerves ? He had not
weak nerves, when, with five ships of the line, he stood and
beat off fifteen of the enemy. But he whose nerves were
not weak when he met a host of foes, shrunk from a closer
interview, and a responsible coiinection with the Earl of Sand-
wich. Admiral Barrington was a man, from whose connec-
tions it might be expected that he would not be unfriendly to
ministry, but yet he had apprehensions of the Earl of Sand-
wich. This was the cause of so many brave men retiring.
This was the cause of their choosing to withdraw themselves
from a post where they had greater enemies to meet than the
French and Spaniards. They showed us that there was a
man at the head of our naval affairs, whose quality and cun-
ning it was to make even bravery useless to his country.


The year 1 77 9 presented us with a repetition of the plan
and misconduct of I773. Late eruizing in the winter pre-
vented early equipments in the campaign. The Spanish war
broke out, and the first lord of the admiralty, as if he wished
only to fight the battles of our enemies, never once attempted
to prevent the French and Spaniards from meeting, joining,
and insulting us in the channel. Sir Charles hardy was sent
to sea without instructions to prevent the junction of the ene-
my, and it was only Providence, our good great Ally,
that saved us, by sending an eastern wind, and a distemper,
tboutd:hveleneth enemy from our doors. Sir Charles Hardy stole
along the French coast in order to avoid seeing the enemy,


got into Torbay, and the Earl of Sandwich was
Perfectly assured that the enemy was safe in Brest water, he
cOmmenced his exertions, and all was hurry and confusion at




1 4 iVOTION FOR AN ENQUIRY INTO [Jan. 24.
the dock-yards, that hurry which he constantly mistakes for
diligence; and when the clamour ran high, and the people
felt the indignity that had been offered to them, he promised
them that they should have a good account of the enemy.
The next piece of misconduct was in the manner of dispatch-
ing Admiral Rodney to the West Inches. A French squadron
under Count de &Michell, had sailed for that destination, and
very galarmin appearances ensued. It was exceedingly ne-
Cessary that


r ing
George should be there as soon as possible.


In order therefore to facilitate his passage, he is sent to relieve
Gibraltar, by which he is detained a considerable time, and
the enemy


are left in the quiet enjoyment of this opportunity
of reinforcing the squadron at Martinique. We had it in
Our power to have got the start of De Guichen, for the fleet
which was dispatched straight, arrived in the \Vest Indies be-
fore the French squadron. We might therefore have inter-
cepted their passage, and fought them separate. It was true
that Sir George Rodney's squadron destroyed nine- of the
enemy's ships, a capital advantage, and indeed the only thing
that had the consequences of a victory through the whole
war; but were ministers to be praised for what they did not
contrive, and what they did not foresee ? It was Providence
again, and the bravery of Sir George Rodney's fleet, but not
:die Earl of Sandwich that gave us that advantage. In the
West Indies the French and Spaniards formed a junction,
and Sir George Rodney, who is fond of promising to give a
good account, and not very apt to be depressed by the mis-
fortunes of his country, fairly owned that he durst not meet
them. Here, then, ruin stared us in the face, every one of
our islands lay at the mercy of our enemy; but there seemed,
said the honourable gentleman, to be a Lord Sandwich in
their councils, and Cod grant that there may always be a
Lord Sandwich in their councils! They met, and separated
without doing any thing.


The year 173o was remarkable for the capture of an im-
mense fleet of merchantmen and transports under Commodore
Moutray, and the circumstances of the case were striking :
they gave another suspicion among all the other parts of Lord.
Sandwich's conduct, that he was intent on doing good and
faithful service to his masters of the House of Bourbon. At
least if they had been his masters, it could not have been more
consistent with duty to have ordered Captain Moutray to de--
liver up his invaluable convoy to the jaws of the enemy, than
to do as he had done; for at the very moment when he knew
that the Spanish fleet were cruizing off the coast of Spain he
ordered Captain Moutray_to rendezvous at Madeira; that is
to say, to go in the very track where he would fall it with,


1782.] THE ILL SUCCESS OP THE NAVY. IS


the enemy. In this year again the same fault was observable
with respect to late sailing. No attempt was made either to
prevent the fleets from joining, or to prevent the sailing of
M. Ternay for America with that military force which had
lately captured the army of Earl Cornwallis. The same
scheme of bombastic gasconade still prevailed, and ships and
fleets were employed 5n needless cruizes, merely for the pur-
pose of saying, that we were in possession of the seas when
the enemy were in port. It -Was in this year that Commo-
dore Fielding was sent with six ships of the line to intercept
Admiral Bland with one. This circumstance made the as-
sertion of Lord North, " that the Dutch war was a war of
necessity, and not of choice, as we suffered more from them
while they were insidious friends than since they are become
open enemies," intelligible; it was to him inexplicable till of
late, but now he saw its meaning and acknowledged the truth
of the observation ; for when they were friends, we sent six
ships to fight one; but when they became enemies, we sent
only five ships to fight eight. This was the plan of Lord
Sandwich. As soon as a nation became our enemy, he
lowered the opposition that we made to it, and thus it plain-
ly appeared, that they were more injurious to us when friends
than now when enemies


'


for they then detached more of our
men of war than now from the contest with the House of
Bourbon.


The honourable gentleman then came to the year 178r,
the memorable period of our disgraces and infamy; and he
particularly described the naval transactions. The rupture
with Spain was the first memorable event of this period, a
measure so scandalously impolitic, and so infamously brought
about, that ministers ought to be impeached for that alone.
Though ministers seemed in the Dutch war to be actuated
by a spirit of resentment, they did not know how to wreak it
on the Dutch : if they had had a mind to crush them, and
God forbid, said he, that the Dutch should ever be crushed,
forthen indeed the present system of Europe would be no
more ! but if they wished to crush Holland, they should have
had a fleet in the Texel to awe the Dutch, and force them to
yield to the terms of England ; no such measure was adopt-
ed: instead of that five ships only were sent into the North
Seas. Providence, indeed, but no thanks to the admiralty,
had sent the Berwick to join Admiral Parker : but why the
Sampson was not sent by their lordships no one could tell.
It was true, indeed, that they sent to the coast of Norway,
to let him know that she lay at the Gunfleet; and that if he-
-wanted her he might send for her. Thus time was lost; she
night have been the messenger herself; and then our admi-




6 MOTION FOR AN ENQUIRY INTO [Jan. 24.
ral, no doubt, would have gained a decisive victory over the
Dutch. The Sampson was indeed sent to him, but she
arrived the day after the engagement.


Our Channel fleet was still, as formerly, too late to prevent
the junction of the French and Spaniards, or even to attempt
it. Their fleets appeared again at the mouth of the Channel;
Admiral Darby sent an account of it to the admiralty; but
there he was laughed at—he was not believed : the mayor of
Bristol sent to the admiralty to know if the report was true
that the enemy was on the coast; and an answer was sent to
him by Mr. Stephens, by order of Lord Sandwich, that there
was no such thing; and that Admiral Darby had put back
into Torbay, only for refreshments: thus was that admiral
spit upon by the first lord of the admiralty ; and the infor-
mation he had given treated as a lie. Such was the manner
in which the first lord of the admiralty treated an admiral
commanding the naval power of Britain ; and such was the
sort of treatment which had driven men of fine feelings from
the service ! He knew not how Admiral Darby felt it; he
had heard an excellent character of that gentleman, and he
believed him to be incapable of brooking so palpable an in-
sult. How it had been settled he knew not, but the fact was
so ; and further it was perfectly well known, that Admiral
Darby had returned to port with the advice of his officers, in
consequence of the appearance of the combined fleets. The
mayor, however, received a letter from Lord Shuldham in
about a quarter of an hour after the receipt of Mr. Stephen's
letter, in which his lordship confirmed the report, that the
enemy were in the Channel, and warned the mayor to com-
municate the intelligence to the merchants. The conse-
quence of the admiralty letter would have been to decoy the
trade of Bristol into the hands of the enemy, just as Captain
Moutray's convoy had been sent into the hands of the
Spaniards, by having been ordered to rendezvous at Madeira,
while the enemy were cruizing in his track. It seemed, how-
ever, that though the admiralty knew nothing of the com-
bined fleets last year in the Channel, or pretended not to
know any thing of them, Lord Stormont had written to Mr.
Eden in Dublin, to warn him that they were gone to cruize
off the coast of Ireland, and it was pretty evident that this
letter was precisely- of the same date with that from the
admiralty to the mayor of Bristol, in which that magistrate
was informed that the enemy was not on the coast.


The combined fleets separated last year early in Septem-
ber; but our fleet, as usual, was kept at sea to make an
empty parade after the enemy had quitted their station.
They were cruizing about, while M. de la Motte Picquet came




17 82.]
THE ILL SUCCESS OF THE NAVY. rI


out, and seized our St. Eustatius fleet, with all the plunder
of that island. Comte de Grasse put to sea; and though by
a proper use of the force we had at that very time cruising,
we might have defeated him, and prevented all the dreadful
consequences that afterwards attended his expedition, he was
permitted to proceed ; and the last consequence of our having
suffered him to pass us, was the surrender of Lord Cornwallis:.,
which could never have been effected without his naval force.
When Admiral Darby was at Gibraltar with a very fine fleet,
he should have been instructed to detach a part of it to the
West Indies, if he should not meet with any opposition in
relieving Gibraltar : such instructions would have effectually
saved Lord Cornwallis, by giving us a superiority in the
West Indies: but our ministers never thought before-hand :
at an earlier period of the war, when Lord Shuldham vas
sent out with a very capital force, to protect a great con-
voy, he was not instructed to do any thing against the
enemy.


In the West Indies we had been indulged with Sir George
Rodney's frequent promises to give good accounts of the ene-
my's fleets, when all lie had been able to do, was to fight
some drawn battles ; which were, he contended, generally
followed with the loss of some of our islands, and therefore,
in effect, were as bad as defeats. He had been employed in
the despicable plunder of St. Eustatius while the island of
Tobago was taken ; and the business of this great conquest
was not discussed time enough to prevent the catastrophe of
our American career. But the last measure was the most
abandoned of all, and which particularly demanded,the in-
vestigation of that House, the sending out Admiral Kempen-
felt with a force so inferior to that of the enemy. This had
impressed the whole kingdom with surprise and indignation :
either the admiralty were deficient in the necessary informa-
tion, or they were negligent in having taken proper advan-
tage of it ; in either case their conduct was equally criminal.
The ministry had heard that the French were doing some-
thing, and upon inquiry found, that they had fifteen ships
of the line at Brest, and two at Rochford. The naval mi-
nister knew the French had twenty-one sail, but he took
it into his head that only twelve would sail to the West In-
dies, not thinking, as he should have done, that the other
nine would bear them company to a certain latitude. He
thnere


dies,
fore thought, as only twelve ships were going to the WestI that twelve ships could intercept them, and AdmiralKempenfelt accordingly is dispatched with that force to inter-


cept them; when lo ! as might have been expected, the Frenchfleet amounts to nineteen sail ! In consequence of which, the




voL. C




t 8


MOTION FOR AN INQUIRY INTO [Jan. 24,


British commander dares not attack them, and the object of
their destination is pursued. Providence, indeed, so often
our friends, interferes ; throws some of their transports into
our hands, and destroys others by a storm. To render this
matter still more censurable, and unfold the designs of the
first lord of the admiralty, at the very time Admiral Kem-
penfelt was sent out with an inferior force, ships fit for action
were then lying in the Downs and other places._ They
were indeed stationed there to annoy the Dutch trade, but
their being withdrawn a few days from that station could
have produced no ill consequence, that could have been put
in competition with the advantages that would have been de-
rived from it.


As to Sir George Rodney, no part of his fleet, it was said,
could be spared for the purpose of attacking M. Vaudreuil.
The honourable gentleman could not but admire this sort of
excuse, as if it was not better to stop the French from going
to the West Indies than to follow them thither ; for the
most that had been urged was, that it would have delayed
his sailing to the West Indies ; not thinking, as more ra-
tional men would have done, that if M. Va.udreuil could have
been destroyed here, there would have been no occasion to
have sent any body to another part of the world to have
done it.


The honourable gentleman remarked, that we had now
been at war for some years, and, excepting in the case of Ad-
miral Kempenfelt, no endeavour had ever been made to inter-
cept the enemy. No one instance had ever presented itself of
an attempt to prevent the enemy from sailing. That of Ad-
miral Kempenfelt had been the very first of the kind ; and it
was therefore no wonder, that the minister of the naval de-
partment should have shewn himself such a novice. It had
turned out that the two ships left behind to harass the enemy
had done essential service. Unskilled as he was in profes-
sional matters, he could not help asking if Admiral Kempen-
felt had continued to harass them with his whole force, whe-
ther he could not have done infinitely more service with his
twelve ships than was effected by the two that did remain at
sea; and whether his ships, being copper-bottomed, might not
have a very great advantage of the enemy ?


Mr. Fox said, that these were the principal points to which
he wished the intended inquiry to turn. The year 178 I gave
an epitome of all the blunders of the war ; and therefore, for
the sake of dispatch, he would confine his proposition chiefly
to that period; not however forgetting the other years. The
leading, points in the inquiry then would be the naval opera-
tions of 1781 in their regular order the practice of tearing


1782.) THE ILL SUCCESS OF THE NAVY.
19


the ships in winter cruizes ; and losing every advantage of lo-
cal situation, and priority of appearance at sea, to prevent the
junction of the enemies. These were the points, and to these
every gentleman, whether landman or seaman, would be com-
petent, because they were measures of simple policy. It was
a subject which they must enter upon now or hereafter with
seriousness. We had acted too long from our hopes ; we
must now yield to our judgment; and he warned the House
not to sport longer with the feelings of a great suffering na-
tion ; nor presume to ruin a people for the sake of a man.
He meant to move for a variety of papers, but they were of a
nature that would take up a day or two to prepare. His first
motion, that for an inquiry, he doubted not, would pass with-
out objection. He then moved, " That it be referred to a
committee, to enquire into the causes of the want of success of
his majesty's naval forces during the war, and more particu-
larly in the year 178x."


Lord North and Lord Musgrave, after having replied to several
observations made by Mr. Fox, expressed their cheerful_concur-
rence in the motion. The committee was ordered to be a com-
mittee of the whole House.


Februau 7.
The House resolved itself into the said committee. As soon as


the committee was formed, the clerks, one relieving the other,
read through all the papers that had at various times been laid
upon the table, in consequence of motions made by Mr. Fox. The
reading of these papers took up three hours. This being done,


Mr. Pox rose to move a resolution of censure, founded on
the facts contained in the papers. He said, that if they had
been laid upon the table time enough to have been sufficiently
perused by gentlemen, it would have been totally unnecessary
for him to make any remarks upon their contents ; for the
mismanagement of our marine appeared so glaringly from the
evidence of those papers, that they required no elucidation.
But care had been taken, that they should not come before
the House in such time, that the members could have com-
pletely digested them before it was necessary to ground anyresolution on them ; and they were produced in such' order,
or rather disorder and confusion, that it was almost impossi-
ble, after a cursory reading by the clerks, to combine the
different parts that related to each other. It was on this
account only that he thought himself excusable in making afew observations, which he intended to confine to four differ-
ent heads.


C 2




20 MOTION FOR AN INQUIRY INTO [Feb. 7.


But before:he would touch upon these heads, lie judged it
not improper to throw out a few ideas to the committee, on
subjects, which, (though they were at present out of the
bounds of the inquiry he intended to press, the occurrences to
which he should allude, having happened out of the year
1781, to which year he meant to confine the enquiry for the
present,) were by no means inapplicable to the great object of
the.inquiry. The instructions given to Sir Charles Hardy,
to prevent a junction of the French and Spanish fleets, had
not been laid before the House; and he had submitted to it,
though he was not convinced by the reasons given for with-
holding them ; but he must needs say, that if Sir Charles was
not instructed to prevent such a junction, though, at the time
alluded to, we were not at war with Spain, it was an unpar-
donable, nay, a criminal neglect in the admiralty. From
the papers just read, it appeared indeed, that Admiral Geary
had received instructions for that purpose; but it was at a
time when there was every degree of probability, nay, when
it was known that the fleets, which he was to have kept
asunder, had actually joined before he received his orders ;
such had been the diligence of the first lord of the admiralty,
such his attention to the interests of his country ! Another
thing very remarkable was, that from the i st ofJanuary, 1779,
to the beginning of March 1 7 81, not one single frigate had
been stationed off Brest, to watch the motions of the enemy.
This was a circumstance, which, he was convinced, even the
greatest enemies to Lord Sandwich would scarcely have be-
lieved, if it did not stand confirmed by the papers that had
been read ; and what was still more singular than this omis-
sion, or rather shameful neglect, when frigates were sent in the
month of March to cruize off Brest, it was at a time when
their cruize could not be attended with any useful discovery,
for it was at a time when there was no armament carrying on
in that port, all the squadrons which were intended for seaiav-
ing long before sailed for their different destinations. He had
movedlong a list of the ships employed for the defence of Jer-
sey, at. the time of the attack upon that island; but the return
made to his motion was far from being satisfactory, in fact it
was no return at all; for having called for the ships employed
for. the defence of the island at the time it was attacked, the
return made was a list of ships sent to Jersey, after the expe-
dition against it had miscarried. Having said thus much
by way of preface, Mr. Fox came immediately to the year
.1731; to the naval transactions of which year he confined the
inquiry. In this year, he found four principal heads of ac-
cusation against Lord Sandwich.


First; that he suffered Comte de Grasse to sail for the.


5782.] THE ILL SUCCESS OF THE NAVY.. 2 1


West Indies, without making a single effort to intercept him.
From the papers on the table, it was manifest that he had had
the best and most minute intelligence of the equipment,
strength, and destination of the force under that officer ; it
was equally clear that he knew the time, or very nearly, when
the Comte was to sail; and yet not the least attempt was made
to block up Brest, or give the enemy battle after they had
set out. There were two circumstances which in this case
rendered the first lord of the admiralty highly criminal : one
was, that the object of Comte de Grasse's expedition was of
the most dangerous nature to this country : it was to destroy
its empire in the west, and in some measure to blot the Bri-
tish name out of that part of the world ; but great as these
objects were, he was permitted to pursue them without the
least molestation on the part of Lord Sandwich.


The other circumstance which rendered that naval minister
highly criminal was, that at the very time he had a force at
sea, equal to the complete destruction of Comte de Grasse and
his fleet. Admiral Darby was then at sea with thirty ships
of the line, well equipped, well manned, and in the best con-
dition. But the evil genius of England would have it that
Lord Sandwich should send such orders to Admiral Darby,
as must necessarily leave a free passage for M. de Grasse ;
our fleet, consisting of thirty line of battle ships, put to sea the
13th of March, 178 i ; the French admiral, with twenty-five
ships of the line, sailed the 22d; so that if .Admiral•Darby had
not been sent out of the way, there would have scarcely been a
possibility of the latter avoiding an engagement with us, either
before we got to Gibraltar, or on our return from it. But
Lord Sandwich, as if fearing that the French should be de-
stroyed, sent orders to Admiral Darby to cruize off the coast
of Ireland, to wait for the store-ships and victuallers that were
to join him from Cork. Here was he stationed till the 27th
of March, before he was joined by the transports : in the mean
time, the French continued their voyage without the smallest
interruption ; and what was the consequence ? He really
wanted words to describe it; the consequence was as dreadful
as if London had been burnt ; we had lost our islands; Sir
Samuel Hood had been defeated, or nearly so ; and our fosses
and disgraces were completed by the surrender of Lord Corn-
wallis's army at York-Town.


He desired gentlemen to consider that the naval minister
had it in his power to prevent all these disasters, and to. have
crushed them in the very embryo, by sending Admiral Darby
to meet Comte de Grasse; but instead of doing it, he sent
the British fleet to cruize in a quarter where it must be en-
tirely out of the track of the French. He desired they would


C 3




MOTION roe. AV INQUIRY INTO [Feb. 7.


consider that it was not for want of intelligence of the designs,
number, and strength of the enemy, that he omitted sending
Admiral Darby to meet M. de Grasse; but it was after hav-
ing had the most correct intelligence on the subject, that he
sent our fleet to Ireland. He desired gentlemen would con-
sider this, and say whether it was credible that it could have.
happened without treachery somewhere? But supposing
treachery totally out of the question, those who should think
so far favourably of Lord Sandwich, as to suppose him in-
capable of treachery, must still in candour admit, that from
the evidence contained in the papers just read, he was totally
inadequate to the management of the navy of this country.
No one could conceive the reason why a fleet of 30 ships
of the line should be sent out of their way to Ireland to meet
the transports from Cork, which ought to have been ordered
to join the fleet in the channel ; if that had been the case,
there was not a doubt but Admiral Darby would have given.
a good account of the French; and perhaps he might have
arrived time enough to fall upon the rear of the Spanish
.fleet, which, _after a cruize of two months, was returning in
very foul condition, to Cadiz. It was a very great injury
to cur affairs, that Comte de Grasse should not have been
intercepted in the European seas; but still, an able first lord
of the admiralty might have seen, that it was not irreparable;
for -he might still have defeated the Comte's expedition, by a
proper detachment from Admiral Darby's fleet. It was his
business to have given orders to our commander to detach
to the West Indies, if it should so happen that the Spa-
niards should not dispute the passage of the Streights with
us. A minister of common foresight would have said to his
admiral, either the Spaniards will fight you on your way to
Gibraltar, or they will not. If they should not, then you
will immediately dispatch a part of your fleet to the West
Indies, to counteract the Comte de Grasse. This would
have been the language of a provident minister ; but it was
not the language of Lord Sandwich. If he had so instructed
Admiral Darby, a detachment of clean English ships, with-
out convoy, would have in all probability joined Sir Samuel
Flood before the Comte's arrival and in that case there
was every degree of likelihood, that the French would have
been defeated.


The second head of accusation was the loss of the St. Eus-
tatius convoy. It appeared, from the papers before the com-
mittee, that Sir George Rodney had written to the admiralty
about this convoy before it sailed; and acquainted the board
with the course it was to steer: this letter was received on
the 25th of March. When it was received, it was well known


16


I782.] THE ILL SUCCESS OF THE NAVY. 23


to the first lord of the admiralty, as the committee had learned
from the papers, that a squadron was fitting out at Brest,
the command of which was given to M< de la Motte Piquet.
Admiral Darby was then lying off the coast of Ireland ; but
no orders were sent to him on the subject Admiral Rod-
ney's letter said, the Eustatius convoy was perhaps the
richest that had ever been bound for England. Mr. Fox
observed, that . as to the riches that were on board of it, when
he considered how they had been acquired, they were the
riches, the loss of which, of all others, he should least regret;
but still, as it was the duty of the first lord of the admiralty
to protect it, his neglect was alone sufficient to strew how dis-
qualified he was for the office he held. The squadron under
De la Motte Piquet had been a considerable time fitting out;
very regular intelligence had been transmitted to the admi-
ralty, of the progress of preparations during the months of
February, March, and April; and yet not one step had been_
taken to guard against it : and this was the more criminal, as
we were at the time in almost daily expectation of the arrival
of the Jamaica, as well as the St. Eustatius fleet : no prepa-
ration, however, was made to afford them protection ; and all
that was don.e was, that two frigates had been dispatched to
meet them if possible, warn them of their danger; and enable.
them to avoid it, if they could, by making some port in Ire-
land, or going north about. One of the frigates fortunately
fell in with the Jamaica fleet, which accidentally escaped the
danger ; but the St. Eustatius convoy was taken, at least in
part, on the 2d and 3d of May. The convoy had been
expected ever since the receipt of Sir George Rodney's letter
on the 25th of March, and Lord Sandwich knew of the pre-
parations of M. de la Motte Piquet from the beginning of
February, and yet no step had been taken to protect the one,
or defeat the other; nay, so great was the negligence of the
first lord of the admiralty, that he never thought of making
Admiral Darby acquainted with the expected arrival of the
St. Eustatius convoy, till the r oth of May ; and then dis-
patched a frigate to him, to give him orders to sail to a par-
ticular latitude, in order to protect a convoy, which had been
taken just seven days before the frigate had been dispatched
t° him : now the probability was, that this frigate could not
reach Admiral Darby in much less than a fortnight; so that
near two months had elapsed between the receipt of Sir
George Rodney's letter, giving notice of the sailing of the
convoy, and the time when Admiral Darby got orders to sail
for its protection.
. He asked gentlemen, if this alone was not sufficient to
Justify any motion that he should think proper to make against


4




24 MOTION FOR AN INQUIRY INTO [Feb. 7>
the first lord of the admiralty ? There was only one excuse,
which however poor for a naval minister, ought to be ad-
mitted in such a case as the present; and that was, that he
really had not any force sufficient to cope with M. de la Motte
Piquet ; but poor as this excuse must be in the mouth of an
English naval minister, Lord Sandwich was not fortunate
enough to have it; for it appeared from the monthly returns,
that there were ships enough in port, which, from the month
of March, when Sir George Rodney's letter gave notice of
the intended sailing of the convoy from St. Eustatius, to the
latter end of April, might have been got ready. He read a
list of the ships, and, including one or two fifties, there ap-
peared to have been in our different ports twelve sail of the
line, a force sufficient to have defeated M. de la Motte Piquet :
he read also the returns from the guard ships, stating the
numbers on board, from which he proved, that if we had.
ships, so also we had men to put on board of them : so that
he concluded, that the loss of the convoy could and ought to
be attributed only to the mismanagement, or something worse,
of the first lord of the admiralty.


The third head of accusation was the letter from the ad-
miralty to the mayor of Bristol. Admiral Darby, as appeared
from the papers, had acquainted the admiralty, that he had
fallen in with a Swedish brig, the master of which had in-
formed him, that he had been boarded by a frigate, under
Spanish colours, belonging to the combined fleets, which were
then in the channel ; and that in consequence of this intelli-
gence he bad thought proper to return up the channel for
orders; and had put into Torbay. And here it was to be
ohserved, that the master of the brig was an Englishman,
4ho would not deceive his country, and whose journal con-
firmed his story. How did the first lord of the admiralty
answer•this letter? In an insulting manner, telling the ad-
mire] he did not believe the intelligence ; and addling, if the
account had been true that the combined fleets had appeared
in such a latitude, Admiral Darby must have seen them. In
answer to the mayor of Bristol, he said that the combined
fleets were not in the channel, and that Admiral Darby had
put into' Torbay only to water. 'This he must have known
at the time to have been a falsehood ; for the admiral in his
letter assigned a very different reason for returning into port,
so that it looked as if the naval minister wanted to ensnare
the trade of Bristol by inducing the merchants to send their
ships to sea, that he might deliver them into the hands of the
enemy, just as he had sent Captain Moutray into the hands
of Admiral Cordova. But to shew how completely the ad-
xniralty either had been deceived itself; or had deceived the


1782.] THE ILL SUCCESS or THE NAVY. 25


mayor of Bristol, it appeared that Lord Stormont had, .on the
very day of the date of the admiralty letter to the mayor, sent
an express to Lord Carlisle, with positive intelligence that the
enemy was in the channel.


The fourth charge related to the management of the Dutch
war. That war was, he said, of all foolish, absurd, and mad
undertakings, the most foolish, the most absurd, and the most
mad. It had been represented to that House, in order to
get them to approve of the war, that the Dutch were in a
most defenceless state; that there was a very great party for
us in Holland ; and that we had only to make a. vigorous
effort in the beginning, to give that party the superiority in
the councils of the republic. Upon such a state of the case,
would not any one have expected, that the naval minister
would have signalized the outset of the Dutch war by an
appearance of an English squadron in the Texel ? An attack
might surely be expected to be attended with every success
that we could wish for; but nothing was more foreign to the
intention of Lord Sandwich : he suffered the enemy to equip
those ships which he might have destroyed in the Texel ; and
then brought them to an action, which certainly redounded
greatly to the honour of Admiral Parker and his officers,
and of the enemy too; but which was far from ending in so
decisive a victory as might have been expected, over an enemy
who was represented as weak and enervated. In this case
also, as in that of the St. Eustatius convoy, Lord Sandwich
had many ships which he might have sent to reinforce Ad-
miral Parker: the Sampson, of 64. guns, was one, which
instead of sending directly to the admiral, Lord Sandwich
sent to the grand fleet, to which place she was to be sent for,
if wanted. Here he took an opportunity to retract a thing
which he had asserted, in a former debate, namely, that it
was mere chance that had made the Berwick fall in with the
squadron in the North Sea. This he found not to be true,
for it now appeared that it was by order of the admiralty she
had joined the squadron. The squadron under a very gal-
lant friend of his, and a member of that House, Captain
Keith Stewart, had been kept in the Downs for the purpose
of watching the Dutch ; how well they had been watched,
the it. safe arrival of Admiral Byland had proclaimed to the
world: yet in this, lie presumed, his gallant friend was not
to blame; at least, he had never been called to an account


f
ifth, an epitome of all the other charges, he subjoined a
nith, drawn from the latest circumstance, that of the meeting
between Admiral Kempenfelt and the Brest fleet. He read
the names of the ships which might have been sent out to jeil.




26 MOTION FOlt AN INQUIRY INTO
EFCb. 13.


our rear admiral; and which, including the squadron in the
Downs, made about twenty sail of the line. With this force
which might, he said, have been sent out, it was not to be
doubted but through the known bravery and abilities of Ad-
miral Kempenfelt, we should have completely destroyed the
French fleet and convoy.


He concluded, by observing, as he had done already on a
former occasion, that his first motion ought to be for the
removal of Lord Sandwich from his majesty's councils;
but he thought it inexpedient now ; he would first move a
censure upon him, and if lie should carry that, he would
follow it up with an address to the king, which no doubt
would have its effect; and then, undoubtedly, he would pur-
sue the inquiry through every part, when the minister,
whose administration should be the subject of it, should no
longer be vested with the power to defeat it. He then moved
the following resolution : " That it appears to this committee,
that there has been gross mismanagement in the conduct of
of his majesty's naval affairs, in the year 1 7 8 1."


The general conduct of the naval war was defended by Lord
Mulgrave, Lord North, and Penton. After a long debate,
in the course of which Mr. Fox was supported by Lord Howe,
Mr. Webb, Mr. John Townshend, Mr. Pitt, Sir Fletcher Norton,
Mr. Sheridan, and Admiral Pigot, the committee divided: Yeas
183: Noes 2o5. Majority against Mr. Fox's motion 22.


February 13.
Mr. Fox said, that a circumstance had occurred to his


mind, which he did not think of at the time when the debate
of Thursday last was concluded; and that was, that the reso-
lution he had moved that day in the committee, relative to the
mismanagement of the navy, could not be entered, as the pro-
ceedings of a committee must be reported to the House,
before they can find their way into the journals; and as in
the case he alluded to, the committee had not come to any
resolution, his motion having been negatived, there was
of course nothing for the committee to report. He was re-
solved, however, at all events, that his motion should appear
upon record, and go down to posterity ; and therefore he
then gave notice, that on Wednesday next, he would move
in the House, a resolution, substantially, if not literally the
same, as kthat which on Thursday last had been rejected in
the committee.


3782.]


THE ILL SUCCESS OT THE NAVY. 27


February 2o.


Mr. Fox rose to call the attention of the House to a
motion which he had intimated against the admiralty board ;
but he would not trouble the House, he said, with all the
arguments that had been so well and accurately stated by
many gentlemen in the committee, respecting the most shame-
ful manner in which our naval affairs had been conducted of
late years, for he saw no reason for it; every thing that
ministers had advanced in favour of the Earl of Sandwich had
been so. ably answered, that he was confident every gentle-
man was satisfied in his own mind, and he trusted that there were
scarcely two opinions in the House. The very respectable
number that had divided on this motion in the committee,
although not successful, would, in any other administration
but the present, have been looked upon as a majority, for it
certainly contained the voice of the people r and no minister,
but the present, would think of continuing a man in office
whom the voice of the people was so much against, and with
so much justice. He had been informed, he said, out of the
House, that many gentlemen would have voted with him in"
the committee, but his declaration of following up his mo-
tion, if successful, for the dismission and punishment of Lord
Sandwich, had deterred them : now, he hoped no gentleman
would mistake him, for they were all different and distinct
propositions • they might vote for one, and reject the other :
but he begged leave to caution them against being lulled into
a belief of redress ; for a report had been industriously spread,
that Lord Sandwich was to retire; that report was therefore
calculated merely to serve the particular purpose of the day,
and throw gentlemen off their guard : but what faith was to
be put in the minister's promise was plainly to be seen by
his former conduct. At the beginning of this session lie
promised that the American war should be conducted on a
narrower compass, and that it was to be a war of posts; but
no sooner was his end answered, and the supplies voted, than
he changed his tone, and that brave, gallant, and judicious
officer, Sir Guy Carleton, wets appointed to carry on that
war. To be sure, to appease the people, one of the chief
leaders of that war had been removed :" ; but what was the
consequence of his removal ? a person was appointed in his


On the r xth of February, Lord George Germain, disagreeing with
the other members of the cabinet on the future conduct of the war,
resigned his office of one of the principal secretaries of state, and was
raised to the peerage, by the title of Lord Viscount Sackville. His
of ice was bestowed on Mr. Welbore Ellis, afterwards Lord Mendip. •


*),




28 MOTIONS FOR FLITTING AN 'END TO [Feb. 20.
stead who was a known friend to the American war, and a
staunch supporter of it ever since it -first began. Therefore,
as we found the minister's promise was not to be relied on,
we should not let the opportunity slip ; but while we had it in
our power we ought to have exerted ourselves in doing our
country that justice which it loudly called for. He begged
gentlemen not to imagine that his proceeding in this business
was in any shape personal against the noble lord who was at
the head of the admiralty, nor that it tended to any criminal
proceeding. He had nothing to say to the Earl of Sandwich ;
it was to the board of admiralty ; and gentlemen ought not
to be induced from personal regard to that noble lord to fail
in the execution of their public duty. He therefore hoped
every gentlemen would lay his hand upon his heart, and he
was then confident they must be of his opinion, and would
vote with him, " That it appears to this House, that there
has been great mismanagement in the conduct of his majesty's
naval affairs, in the year 178 I."


The motion was opposed by Earl Nugent and Mr. Dundas. Sir
William Dolben, who had supported Mr. Fox in the committee,
and was supposed to have weight with those members who were
called country gentlemen, declared his resolution of voting against
him on the present occasion, on account of the_ intimation he had
given of his design to move an address for the dismission of the
first lord of the Lmiralty. This he thought by far too hasty and
precipitate a proceeding. Lord Howe also declared, that though
he could not, in honour, avoid voting for the resolution before the
House, yet he should certainly be against the next step proposed.
He asked, if gentlemen were provided with a proper successor,
who would act with the present servants of the crown ? The
plan of the ensuing campaign was also, he said, certainly arranged,
and he doubted whether at such i, a moment it would be safe to
overturn the actual administration of the marine. -Mr. Fox was
ably supported by Mr. William Pitt, who laid his hand upon his
heart, and declared that he thought the whole of the proposi-
tion fully, clearly, and expressly proved. General Conway, Sir
Horace Maim. Mr. Dunning, Admiral Keppel, Mr. Sheridan,
Mr. Thomas Pitt, and Mr. Taylor, spoke also in support of the
motion, The House divided :


Tellers.
• Tellers.


-Mr. Win. Pitt 1
{Lord MulgraveYEAS t S 2 IMr. Byng Mr. J. Robinson z3


$o it passed in the negative.


1782.] THE AMERICAN WAR. 29


GENERAL CONWAY'S MOTIONS FOR PUTTING- AN END TO THE
AMERICAN WAR.


February 22.


THE appointment of Mr. Welbore Ellis to the office of secre-tary of state for the plantation-department, vacant by the
resignation of Lord Sackville, and of Lieutenant-general Sir Guy
Carleton, to succeed the commander-in-chief o 'f the forces in
North America, having occasioned a general alarm amongst those
,vho were persuaded that there still existed a secret and obstinate
attachment in the court to the prosecution of the war against the
colonies, it was resolved to make another attempt in the House of
Commons, to bind up the hands of the executive government, by
a strong and explicit declaration of the opinion of parliament..
With this view, General Conway, on the 22d of February, moved,


That an humble address be presented to his majesty, earnestly
imploring his majesty, that, taking into his royal consideration
the many and great calamities which have attended the present
unfortunate war, and the heavy burthens thereby brought on his
loyal and affectionate people, he will he pleased graciously to listen
to the humble prayer and advice of his faithful Commons, that the
war on the continent of North America may no longer be pursued
for the impracticable purpose of reducing the inhabitants of that
country to obedience by force ; and expressing their hope, that
the earnest desire and diligent exertion to restore the public tran-
quillity, of which we have received his majesty's gracious assu-
rances, may, by a happy reconciliation with the revolted colo-
nies, be forwarded and made effectual, to which great end his
majesty's faithful Commons will be ready most cheerfully to give
their utmost assistance." The debate on this occasion lasted till
two o'clock in the morning. All the arguments used on former
occasions were recurred to on both sides. The ministers continued
to hold the same vague and undetermined language as before.
In reply to Mr. Welbore Ellis, and Mr. Jenkinson,


Mr. Fox, in an able speech, exposed the duplicity of
ministers. He said he was happy to find, on a late occasion,
two hundred and nineteen honest, independent men. If the
people would only consider the vast number of contractors and
placemen, that unworthily and unjustly had seats in that
House, they must be convinced, that a majority ofnineteen, for
a minister was, in fact, a minority, as it proved most clearly
and unequivocally that the voice of the people were against


He was severe on administration, and was glad to
find that he had discovered who the evil spirit was that
conducted all our mischiefs ; it was a person higher than the
noble lord in the blue ribbon : for the noble lord was only
his puppet, . and acted as he was told. The right honourable




JO MOTIONS FOR PUTTING AN END TO [Feb. 27.-
gentleman (Mr. Ellis) had spoke out. He now understood
what was meant. He would take the word of a principal.
The other persons on the same bench with the right honour-
able gentleman, though ostensible ministers, were only se-
condary kind of beings compared to him. That infernal
spirit that really ruled, and had so nearly ruined this country,
which was much greater, though not so visible as ministers,
had spoken through the right honourable gentleman's mouth.
He said, it was now evident, that the war was to be pursued
in America in the same mad manner in which it had been
conducted hitherto. He talked of the distinction of carrying
on a war with America, and in America, and said, every
body had hoped from what had fallen from the lord advocate,
and the noble lord in the blue ribbon before the holidays,
that the war in future was only to be continued with America,
and not in America. But the right honourable gentleman's
explanation of the sort of war of posts to be adopted, had
fully convinced him. He declared, if the 1.2arned lord
advocate did not vote for the present motion, what he had
said before the holidays would bear the construction of having
arisen from personal animosity ; otherwise how was his speak-
ing against one minister, and supporting another for pur-
suing the same measures in the same manner, to be accounted
for?


The House divided:




Tellers. Tellers.


Mr. Hussey
f Mr. J. Robinson




194_




YEAS Mr. 13Yng a 93.—Nozs Mr. W. Adam j
So it passed in the negative.


Februcoy 27.


' The above "division having afforded the ministry the melancholy
majority of a single vote,. was considered by Opposition as a com-
plete victory on the subject of the American war ; and as a majority
of the absent members were supposed to coincide in opinion with
the former, it was resolved to bring the question before the House
again the first opportunity. Accordingly, this day General Con-
way moved, " That it is the opinion of this House, that the
farther prosecution of offensive war on the continent of North
America, for the purpose of reducing the revolted colonies to
obedience by force, -.viil be the means of weakening the efforts
of this country against her European enemies, tends, under
the present circumstances, dangerously to increase the mutual
enmity, so fatal to the interests both of Great Britain and Ame-
rica, and, by preventing an happy reconciliation with that country,
to frustrate the earnest desire graciously expressed by his majesty


1782.] THE AMERICAN WAR.
to restore the blessings of public tranquillity." The motion was se-
conded by Viscount Althorpe, and. opposed by Lord North, in a
long and able reply. He objected to it as unnecessary, after the
assurances that had been given by government ; as dangerous,
on account of the information it conveyed to our enemies; as
impolitic, because it entirely took away from the executive
government the use of its discretion ; as tending to retard rather
than to advance the attainment of peace, the great object in
view by both sides of the House. He therefore could only con-
sider the motion as a party measure, and, in that light, he thought
it not less exceptionable. If, said. he, the House suspects the
sincerity of the servants of' the crown, if they have any doubts of
their ability or integrity, it is not by such a motion as the present
that they ought'to express their sentiments ; they ought to address
the crown to remove those ministers in whom they could not place
confidence, and to appoint others in whom they could confide.
A minister, he said, ought no longer to continue a minister after
he was suspected by that House. IIe should be like exsar's wife,
not only free from guilt, but even from, suspicion. If, indeed,
the House should shew that they had withdrawn their confidence
from him, it would be his duty, without waiting for an address
for his removal, to wait upon his sovereign, and, delivering up
the seals of his office, say to him, " Sir, I have long served you
with diligence, with zeal, and with fidelity, but success has not
crowned' my endeavours ; your parliament have withdrawn from
me their confidence ; all my declarations to them are suspected ;
therefore, Sir, let me resign to you those employments, which I
ought not to keep longer than I can be serviceable to your
majesty and your subjects." Lord. North was followed by the
attorney-general, Mr. Wallace, who observed, that there were
many more obstacles to be removed, in order to treat of peace
with the Americans, than the House seemed to be aware of. At
that moment, several acts of parliament were in existence, which
would prove insuperable bars to such an attempt. He therefore
should recommend, that as the first necessary step, a truce ;
during the continuance of which, the enmity, occasioned by the
violence of the contest, might subside ; and each party, being at
leisure to consult their real interests, might accede to terms of
peace, which, having undergone a slow and temperate discussion,
might prove more honourable and advantageous, as well as more
likely to secure a permanent union, than those resulting from
sudden overtures and sudden acquiescence. He declared his
intentions of bringing in a with the permission of the House,
for these purposes ; and he should therefore move, " That the
debate be adjourned till this day fortnight." This attempt was
combated by Mr. Fox and several leaders of Opposition. Mr.
William Pitt was particularly severe on the motion of adjourn-
ment ; and on the ground of Lord North's own declaration, urged.
the House, by every consideration of duty or prudence, to with-
draw confidence from the present administration. Was there a
Promise, he asked, which they had not falsified ? Was there a
plan in which they agreed ? Did any two of them accord in




32 MOTIONS FOR PUTTING AN END TO [March 4. 1782,3 THE AMERICAN WAIL. 33
any specific doctrine ? No ! there was an incessant variation
a shuffling and tricking pervaded their whole conduct, and in
them parliament could place no trust. The debate lasted again
till two in the morning, when, though the proposition of the
attorney-general was supposed to have brought over a few irreso-
lute votes to the side of the minister, there appeared for the
adjournment only 215 ; against it, 234, exclusive of the two tellers
on each side. The number of those who were present at the
beginning of the debate, but had paired off in the course of the
evening, were said to have amounted to 14. The original ques-
tion, and an address to the king, formed upon the resolution,
were then carried without a division, and the address was ordered
to be presented by the whole House.


Match 4.


The Speaker reported to the House, that the House had at-
tended his majesty with their address, to which he had been
pleased to return the following answer :


Gentlemen of the House of Commons : There are no objects
nearer to my heart than the ease, happiness, and prosperity of my
people. You may be assured, that in pursuance of your advice,
I shall take such measures as shall appear to me to be most con-
ducive to the restoration of harmony between Great Britain and
the revolted colonies, so essential to the prosperity of both ; and
that my efforts shall be directed in the most effectual manner
against our European enemies, until such a peace can he obtained
as shall consist with the interests and permanent welfare of my
kingdoms."


The thanks of the House being unanimously voted to the ping
for his gracious answer, General Conway rose again, and moved,
" That, after the solemn declaration of the opinion of this House
in their humble address presented to his majesty on Friday last,
and his majesty's assurance of his gracious intention, in pursuance
of their advice, to take such measures as shall appear to his ma-
jesty to be most conducive to the restoration of harmony between
Great Britain and the revolted colonies, so essential to the pros-
perity of both, this House will consider as enemies to his majesty
and this country, all those who shall endeavour to frustrate his
majesty's paternal care for the ease and happiness of his people, by
advising, or by any means attempting, the farther prosecution of
offensive war on the continent of North America, for the purpose
of reducing the revolted colonies to obedience by force." Lord
Aithorpe seconded the motion. Lord North declared, that in pur-
suance of the address, and of the king's answer, he should use
every effort to fulfil their orders, relying on their further instruc-
tion, if he appeared to misapprehend their intentions. He consi-
dered the motion unnecessary, as it only reinforced declarations
already sufficiently strong.


Mr. Fox rose to speak but a few words on the motion ; for
as the noble lord in the blue ribbon had said that he should.


not oppose it, there was no occasion for him to enter into any
detail of


:le noble lord, on which lie must
argaument


d dropt
in


from
defence of the proposition ; some things,


ha
animadvert. But he must first beg leave to say, that he was
one of those who were completely and totally dissatisfied with
the answer of the crown to the address of that House. When
he spoke in this manner, lie would undoubtedly be understood
to mean, that he was dissatisfied with the answer which his
majesty's ministers had advised his majesty to give. It was
the answer of the ministers, and among others, of that minis-
ter who .


had, on that day, been heard to declare, that he
disapproved of the resolution of the House on which the ad-
dress was founded; they had put an answer into the mouth of


. his majesty which he could not approve of; because it was not
an answer sufficiently clear and specific. For what did it say?
That his majesty would be graciously pleased to put an end
to the offensive war carried on in America, for the purpose of
reducing the Americans to obedience by force ? No. But
that his majesty would take such measures as shall appear to
him (that is, as shall appear to his ministers) conducive to
the restoration of harmony. Could this be satisfactory? Par-
liament had pointed out the specific means by which to ac-
complish the object; namely, by putting an immediate stop to
offensive war; but his majesty's ministers, instead of declaring
in their answer that they would guide themselves by this
advice, make his majesty declare that they will take such steps
as appear to them conducive to the object. He was not in
the House when the motion for an address of thanks was
agreed to, as he understood, unanimously; if he had, notwith-
standing what he had just said, he should have voted for it,
for he was careful to distinguish between the obligation that
was due to his majesty personally for the grace of his answer
(and he sincerely believed that his majesty was, in his royal
mind, :most graciously disposed to restore the blessings of peace
to his unhappy people), and those ministers who wished to
make the crown follow a plan of conduct directly opposite to
the advice of his faithful commons. This answer of the mi-
nistry, coupled with their language in that House, Was per-


' fectly intelligible; for here they declared, and particularly
the minister for the American department, that the best way
to conclude a peace with America was to make them feel the
calamities of war. This expression the new secretary of
State,


(Mr. Ellis) had made use of but a few days before.
His majesty, he sincerely believed, wished to conclude peace
with America, as his faithful Commons had advised him; but
his ministers undoubtedly meant no such thing, for their Ian,-
guage was different.




3 4 MOTION FOR AN ENQUIRY MO [March 4
But the noble lord had said, that he never would, nor


should any man presume to act in contradiction to the voice
of the majority of that House; nor dare to call it in question ;
nor dare to abuse it, in any shape. For his own part, he
must claim to himself the right of declaring his opinion freely
and fully of the conduct of parliament, in discharge of his.
own conscience, and of his duty. When majorities acted.
wrong in his opinion, he would, both within that House and
out of it, declare his disapprobation of their conduct: but
the noble lord pronounced it, as the indispensable duty of a
minister to hold the decision of the majorities of that House
in the strictest reverence. Had he always done so ? Did
he not remember the vote of a majority of that House,
declaring that the influence of the crown ought to be di-
minished? What, then, was his duty upon that occa-
sion ? Surely, to second the endeavours of that majority
to reduce the influence. Did he so ? No. He there coun-
teracted, opposed, and at last defeated and destroyed the
desire of that House ; nay, he advised the crown, in a
shameful manner, to dissolve the parliament before its regular
period, lest they should, in another session, carry into ex-
ecution the resolutions of a former. Did he not, by his
conduct, bring upon that House the disgrace and ignominy
of having declared what was their duty, and afterwards failed
to perform it ?
. If the noble lord sought for credit in his declarations of
respect for the decision of majorities, let him now come to
the resolution of the 6th of April, 1 7 80, and reduce the
influence of the crown, and then he would be considered as
.a fair man ; but the noble lord would otherways incur the
censure of saying things in argument which he by no means
meant to abide by. His situation was truly embarrassing.
He had said in debate the other evening, and he had said it
by way of menace, that if the voice of the House should be
against him, that was undoubtedly by being against the prin-
ciple and system of his administration, he would no longer
continue in place. The House had been against him ; the
majority of the House was against him; and still the noble
lord kept his place. Such was his respect for majorities, and
such the credit that ought to be given to his declarations in
that House ! But it was no way strange, that he should
now affect to pay regard to the decision of majorities; he
stood in a situation which, he would be bound to say; had
not been precedented since the revolution ; 'he remained in
place when the House had condemned the system. Being


-then to carry on measures contrary to his own opinion, what
must be done? When he went into his sovereign's presence,


1782.]


THE AMERICAN WAR.
3y


be must address him in language to the following effect :—
6 4 I am come, Sire, to advise you to a measure, which is ex-
pressly contrary to my own opinion, and to all I ever told
you; but, however, it is the opinion of a majority of the
House of Commons." The noble lord was to gather every
thing from the opinion of that House, since he seemed re-
solved to carry on measures of which lie disapproved, if this
country should be so reduced, so poor in spirit, or so indif-
ferent as to suffer a minister to have the conduct of affairs in
a moment so dangerous as the present, when he dared not to
execute his own plans.


The free, uncorrupt voice of the majority of that House
was, indeed, respectable. He did respect it; and respecting
it, he must condemn and despise the majorities of another
description, which the minister had procured by means of
corruption. When he saw a majority, composed of contrac-
tors, whom a majority of that House had previously declared
to be ineligible to sit there, he could not respect that ma-
jority. The House having, by solemn resolutions, declared
contractors, the lords of trade, and certain other officers of
the state, incapable of sitting in that House, he could not:
afterwards respect a majority made up of those men alone. He
thanked God that the House of Commons had come to the
resolutions of Friday last. -Whatever were their present
effects, they must, in the end, be decisive ; for they had, by
those resolutions, broken, destroyed and annihilated the
principle and basis of the present system ; they had over-
come corruption ; and the system, thus deprived of its
foundation, must crumble into pieces. It was impossible
to believe that the ministry could be so daring and profligate
as to go on after what had happened on Wednesday last;
they.could not have the presumption, surely, after the tidings
that had come that day ; they could not be impudent enough
to go on. That day they had heard that the important island.
of Minorca was lost; that the garrison, consisting of tsoo
men, had surrendered prisoners of war ; and that there were
circumstances in the loss of this island, -which made. it . par-
ticularly criminal in ministers; for, besides the loss of the
garrison, he understood that there were several regiments now
on their way to relieve the place. In the last war, the loss
of this important fortress and island drove a much greater
ministry than .the present from their seats. The nation
would not then suffer loss, disgrace, and calamity, without
calling their rulers to a severe account. Would they now
suffer loss after loss, disaster after disaster ? Were they sohabituated to defeat? Had ministry made them so familiar
with sorrow that they could now bear loss without a complaint?


33 2.




36 310TION FOR AN ENQUIRY, &C. [March 4.,


FIe hoped not. He had heard that day another report; he
sincerely hoped it was not true ; he had no other reason for
believing it, but the probability, that the most important
island remaining to us in the West Indies, except Jamaica,.
he meant St. Kites, was taken. He desired ministers to in-
form the House, if it was true that this calamity also had come
upon us ; and where they meant to stop ; when they would
confess that they had done enough. From his soul, he be-
lieved, that such was their accursed obstinacy, that even
when they had lost nine-tenths of the king's dominions,
they would not be satisfied till they had mangled and destroyed
the last miserable tenth also — pride and obstinacy were so
predominant in their nature !


He could not help observing with pleasure, the- triumph of
men in every, quarter, on the resolutions of the House on Wed-
nesday last. The exultation, the triumph, the hope, painted
and expressed in every countenance, was a test of the desire
which they had for the object recommended in that House, and
the consequences that it had produced on the funds, and on.
the credit of the nation, were also inconceivable. The peo-
ple saw or heard of our triumphs without emotion. They,
heard of the victories obtained by his majesty's ministers with-
out gladness. The stocks remained the same, the faces of men
wore the same gloom ; but on the instant that a victory was
gained over his majesty's ministers, whom they considered as
the greatest enemies of their country, their joy was immo-
derate, the funds were immediately advanced, and the credit
of the nation raised, because there was a prospect of the
ministry going out of place. All yet would be well in their
conception, if this should be brought about. 'When the noble
lord, two years ago, brought in a bill for conciliatory propo-
sitions with America, the funds were not affected ; they hoped
for no benefit from any thing that he should undertake; but
when the parliament declared it, they instantly proclaimed
" now that the minister is beaten the country may be saved."
He professed that, though he could not thank God for the
many calamities which had overtaken this unhappy land, in
consequence of the fatal system by which the king and people
had been deluded, he still considered it as beneficial that the
triumph of Wednesday last had not come sooner. It had,
coming as it did, completely and effectually destroyed
corruption; the reign of it was at an end. If the conquest
had come sooner, before we had been so instigated against.
the baneful consequences of a system of corruption, perhaps
there might have been contrived some paltry and insionifi-b
cant coalitions, Which would have made the system more pa-
latable. Now they were roused, and leagued by a 'sense of


MOTION FOR PEACE WITH AMERICA. 37


common danger, to a plan of general and united „action.
though the administration might go on for a day, a week, a
month, or a year, it was nothing to a man who viewed things
on a great scale ; the foundation was taken from it on Wed.
nesday last; it must fall down, and then an effectual remedy
would be found to prevent its ever rising again.


Ministers did not venture to divide the House ; the motion,
therefore, after a feeble opposition, was agreed to.


Ti-ix ATTOTtNEY-GENERAL'. BILL Pon ENABLING THE KI.Ner
TO CONCLUDE A PEACE OR TRUCE wlTn AMERICA.


Mardi 5.


The House having resolved itself into a committee, the Attorney-
General, Mr. Wallace, moved, " That leave be given to bring in
a bill to enable his majesty to conclude a peace, or truce, with the
revolted colonies in North America."


Mr. Fox assured the committee that nothing but the per-
sonal respect he bore the learned gentleman had prevented him
from treating the proposition just as it deserved to be treated ;
and that was to burst out a laughing when he had heard it,
and then walk out of the House ; for nothing could be so ridi-
culous and farcical as to hear such a proposition from that side
of the House, and from a member who, on Wednesday last,
had combated, as far as he was able, a resolution, the obvious
tendency of which was that very peace with which the learn-
ed gentleman seemed at present enamoured. The supporters
of administration entertained at present a wish for peace ; but
they had been beaten into it ; and nothing but flagellation
and correction could drive them to think of peace : pity it
was that so much correction should be necessary l—The
learned gentleman had said, and said truly, that opening our
ports to the Americans, and facilitating mutual intercourse
with them, was the most effectual way to incline them to re-
turn to that preference which they used to give to our market
over any other. Pity it was, that the learned gentleman and
his friends had not discovered this four years sooner; then
We should not have to lament the loss of America and our
West India islands ; we should not have to regret the loss of
Minorca, or be reduced to this melancholy situation, that
of all our foreign


those -0 in India excepted, we, possessions, ioa
A 3




33 MOTION FOR PEACE WITH AMERICA. [March s.
could scarcely say that we had now remaining more than
Jamaica and Gibraltar ; and God only knew how long these
might remain in our hands I When he rose, it was not with
an intention either to support or oppose the motion of the
learned gentleman, from which however he. was free to say,
that he expected very little good ; but before he should con-
sent to furnish ministers with the means of making peace, he
would ask how far it was probable that they were inclined to
make peace? Gentlemen knew well that Spain had offered
her mediation, before she declared war. Would ministers
tell upon what grounds it was rejected ? In the year 178i,
one of the most powerful princes of Europe had offered a
mediation. Upon what principle was it rejected ? Those who
did not listen to mediations, could scarcely be ailed friends
to peace : but if measures destructive of peace had been pur-
sued,' would any one say that the present ministers were in-
clined to it, or proper agents to negociate it Was it true
that our ministers had flatly refused to suffer any agents from
America to meet their plenipotentiaries, under the mediation
of the prince alluded to ? If it was true, then it was to be con-
chided, that as they had driven the Americans to treat through
France, they would consequently have taken the most eactual
means to rivet the alliance between them ; and of course no-
thing could be more injurious to the interests of this country.
The learned gentleman therefore, in looking for the impedi
ments and bars to peace, which he was desirous to remove,
ought to look to his right and to his left, and in the persons
of his friends, the ministers, he would find those impediments.
Before he sat down, he had a proposal to make to ministers;
he would inform diem for certain, that there were persons
now in Europe, who were fully empowered to treat for a
peace between Great Britain and America; and though he
believed they would not treat with the present ministers, still
he would put them in a way of making peace; nay more, if
they did not like to interfere in it themselves, he would un-
dertake to negociate for them himself. He saw a learned
gentleman smile at his proposal ; lie was not surprised at it;
nor could he have brought himself to make it, if the good of
his country did not urge him to it ; and he might propose it,
without being guilty of more inconsistency than the noble
lord, who condemned the resolution of Wednesday last, for
peace with America, though at present he was willing to act
every day contrary to his inclination ; and to be constantly
advising the sovereign to pursue those measures, which he so
much condemned. Our affairs were so circumstanced that
ministers must lose their places, or the country must be un-
done : he would therefore let them enjoy those emoluments,


II


1782.]


MOTION OF CENSURE ON MINISTERS.
39


which they held so dear, provided he could save his country :
for this end he was willing to serve them in the business of
peace, in any capacity, even as an under commis, or messen-
ger. But in so doing, be desired it might be understood that
lie did not mean to have any connection with them : from the
moment when he should make any terms with one of' them, he
would rest satisfied to be called the most infamous of man-
kind : he could not for an instant think of a coalition with
men, who in every public and private transaction, as ministers,
had shewn themselves void of every principle of honour and
honesty : in the hands of such men he would not trust his
honour, even for a minute.


Lord North explained the manner in which mediations had been
offered, and answered Mr. Fox's insinuations against his honour.
He would not, he added, relinquish his office merely because so.
much eagerness was shown to drive him out ; but as he had hither-
to retained it to prevent confusion, and the introduction of uncon-
stitutional principles into government, he would not. resign till*
;commanded by the king, or till the House should, in the clearest
manner, indicate the propriety of his withdrawing.


Mr. Fox assured the noble lord, when he said he was dis-
honourable in private transactions, he meant in such as were
of a half public, half private nature; and not at all in his
private character, or in such part of his public character as
related to money matters, in which he was ready to admit
that he stood clear from every imputation. He wished how--
ever, in every other respect, it should be believed that he
had spoken no harsher than he meant. He ridiculed the
idea of the noble lord's remaining in office to prevent confu-
sion ; and was surprised at the difference which he found in
the noble lord's language on this day and Wednesday last,
relative to resignation.


The motion was agreed to without a division.


LORD JOHN CAVENDISH'S MOTION OF CENSURE ON
MINISTERS.


T dish


March 8.
HE following resolutions were moved by Lord John Caven.


" That it appears to this House, that since the year
1 775, upwards of one hundred millions of money have been ex-,


•D 4




p


1


40 MOTION OF CENSURE ON MINISTERS. [March 8.
pended on the army and navy in a fruitless war 2 . That during
the above period, we have lost the thirteen colonies of America,
which anciently belonged to the crown of Great Britain, (except
the posts of New York, Charles-Town, and Savannah,) the newly
acquired colony of Florida, many of cur valuable West India and
other islands, and those that remain are in the most imminent
danger : — 3. That Great Britain is at present engaged in an ex-
pensive war with America, France, Spain, and Holland, without a
single ally:—q.. That the chief cause of all these misfortunes has
been the want of foresight and ability in his majesty's ministers."
The resolutions were seconded by Mr. Powys, and supported by
Mr. Martin, Mr. Thomas Townshend, Mr. Burke, Sir Horace
Mann, Lord Maitland, Mr. Fox, Sir Fletcher Norton, Mr. Thomas
Pitt, Mr. Sheridan, Mr. Byng, and Mr. William Pitt. The order
of the day was moved by the secretary at war, and supported by
Mr. Secretary Ellis, Earl Nugent, Mr. William Adam, Mr. Dun,
das, Mr. Rigby, and Lord North.


Mr. Fox rose, and answered the several matters thrown
out by Mr. Adam. He had declared, and he repeated the
assertion, that he would be an infamous man, who should, on
coming into place, abandon the principles and professions
which he had made when out of place. He was happy to say
that every principle lie had ever held had been adopted by a
majority of that House, the decisinn of which had given sanc-
tion to his opinions. The twogreat leading principles of his
mind, in which lie differed from the King's ministers, were,
the prosecution of the American war, and the influence of
the crown; in both these matters he had been supported by
the opinion of parliament. The resolutions of the 27th of
February had condemned the American war, and those of the
6th of April, 178o, had declared that the influence of the
crown ought to be - The general principle of re-


-


ducing that influence he warmly adopted. The corruption of
that House was intolerable, and to all the resolutions which
the House had come to at that time, for excluding contractors,
for excluding the members of the board of trade, of the
board of green cloth, &c. he, from his heart, subscribed.
All these members the House had declared to be incapable
of sitting and voting in that House. By taking up the
list of the division on the late memorable occasion, instead
of leaving the minister in a minority of nineteen, he would
prove, that, by taking away these contractors and placemen,
who were declared by the House to be incapable of voting,
the majority against the minister was upwards of a hundred.
To all the details prepared for the reduction of influence, he
did not subscribe; but in this he was clear and decided, that
that House ought to be made what it was originally intended
to be—the representative of the nation. With respect to


Z] MOTION OF CENSURE ON MINISTERS. 41
shortening the duration of parliament, it had always been
Lis opinion, that it ought to be shortened; it was, however,
a. question on which honest men might differ, for honest and
free men would differ ; and he was clearly of opinion, that
the shortening the duration of parliament would do nothing,
without reducing at the same time the influence of the crown;
bat he thought the shortening the duration of parliament
would be one great means of reducing that influence. He
could not help expressing his astonishment at the honourable
gentleman's declaring, that septennial parliaments were chosen
as the wisest and most consonant to the general well-being of
the state, by those respectable and great men, the NNThigs,
who settled the constitution, when the Revolution took place.
He reminded the House that the bill for septennial parlia-
ments was a bill of modern date, and though it might not be
practicable to alter that mode inunediately, he still was of
opinion that annual or triennial parliaments would be an im-
provement, calculated to preserve the privileges of the people
from the encroachments of the prerogative of the crown.


Having said this, lie begged leave to explain a matter
which he had urged on a former evening, and which he
understood had been misapprehended. It had been thought
that he gave out that there would be formed an administra-
tion of proscription. This he positively denied; on the con-
trary, it was the desire of those with whom he had the honour
to act, to form an administration on the broadest basis; an
administration which should take in all that was great and
dignified in the empire; to collect all the ability, the talents,
the consideration, and the weight of the nation ; to draw
within its arms every man of influence, every man of popula-
rity, every man of knowledge, every man of experience, with.
out regarding his particular opinion on abstract points, and
to employ all this body of strength to one great end, the de-
liverance of the empire. He had said only, that he could
form no connection with the present cabinet; that lie should
be infamous if he did. He thought, however, that they had
no weight nor consideration in the country, as private men.
Even among them, there was one, however, for whom he en-
tertained great respect. He meant the lord chancellor : a
man who had always taken care to convince the world, that
he had no share in their measures. The sense of the nation
called for a change of men, as the only probable means of pro-
ducing a change of measures, and a peace with America, who
_would. not treat with her resentful and avowed foes, the mem-
l?ers of the present administration ? What was to be expected
ll•otn an American secretary and a minister, who severally111aintained their former sentiments respecting America, and




42
MOTION OF CENSURE ON MINISTERS. [March 8. 1782.] SIR JOHN ROUS'S MOTION. 43


who considered the vote of Wednesday sthinight as a fetter
on their . inclinations. The times regttired it, and he hoped
to God, the country would soon have an administration settled
on a broad bottom, - in which they could place confidence, and
from. whose measures they might rationally hope for success.
It was by.driving the present weak, wicked, and incapable
advisers of the crown from the person of his majesty, that the
country could alone expect to recover from its present dis-
grace and misfortune. The propositions moved by his noble
friend that day, he was convinced in his own mind, would
tend to produce that great and desirable object ; and, there-
fore, wishing as he did for the removal of the noble lord in
the blue ribbon, and such of his colleagues as had been the
planners and conductors of the accursed American war, as the
best blessing he could wish for his country, he should vote
against the motion for the order of the day.


In explanation of his description of the broad-bottomed.
administration, which his friends desired to form, he said, that
they would proscribe no men, of any principles, in the pre-
sent dreadful moment, but the five or six, men -who were now,
and had been, the confidential advisers of his majesty in all
the measures that had brought about the present calamities.
To demonstrate his meaning by an example, they did not
even wish to proscribe the learned lord advocate, although
they abhorred his notions of the constitution. He then spoke
of his idea of consulting the voice of the people without doors.
It was clearly his opinion, that the people ought to declare
their opinion of men and things; and that to do this, they bad
a right to meet and consult together, provided they did it in a
peaceable, orderly manner. He would add to this, that when
that -House should become so lost to all sense of duty, and so
far gone in corruption as to abandon the rights of the people
altogether, and to become the passive instruments of the crown,
then it. might be justifiable for the people to revert to the ori-
ginalprinciples of the constitution, and to resume the direc-
tion of their own affairs, so as to preserve the popular weight
in the scale of government. The present administration was
the first since the revolution that had dared to deny this right.
But, said he, make parliament the representative of the people,
and their voice will be collected within these walls.


The debate lasted till past two o'clock in the morning, when the
House divided on the order of the day :


Tellers. Tellers.
{Mr. W. Adam 226.--.00ES Mr. William Pitt 1YEAS 216.Mr. J. Robinson I" Mr. Byng


Majority in favour of ministers


SIR JOHN R ous's MOTION FOR WITHDRAWING THE CONP1-•
PENCE OP PARLIAMENT FROM THE KING'S MINISTERS.


March r
'TUE interval between the 8th and the 15th of March was


generally supposed to have been employed in various unsuc-
cessful attempts to divide the party in Opposition. On this day,
Sir John Rous moved, " that this House, (taking into considera-
tion the great sums voted, and debts incurred, for the service of
the army, navy, and ordnance, in this unfortunate war, to the
amount of upwards of one hundred millions ; and finding that the
nation has, notwithstanding these extraordinary exertions, lost
thirteen ancient colonies belonging to the crown of Great Britain,
the newly-acquired province of West Florida, and the islands of
Dominica, St. Vincent, Grenada, Tobago, and Minorca, besides
several valuable commercial fleets, of the utmost importance to the
wealth of this country ; and that we are still involved in war with
three powerful nations in Europe, without one single ally,) can
have no further confidence in the ministers who have the direction
of public affairs." The motion was principally supported by Lord
George Cavendish, Mr. Harrison, Mr. Marsham, Mr. William
Pitt, Mr. Fox, and Lord John Cavendish; and opposed by Sir
William Dolben, Mr. William Adam, and Mr. Dundas. Lord
North spoke with considerable emotion and embarrassment, to
which the peculiarity of his situation must doubtless have much
contributed. In a most able speech he defended his own character
and administration. He did not object to the present motion so much
as to that of the preceding week ; it was divested of anger, its
terms•moderate, and its intent clear and defined. He sincerely
wished for peace, and for such an administration as could act with
unanimity and effect for the national good. He would be no ob-
stacle to a coalition of parties, for the formation and adjustment
of a new cabinet in which he should have no place. This idea
was strenuously enforced by Mr. Dundas, and warmly reprobated
by Mr. William Pitt, who defined a coalition to be a collection and.
combination of all the abilities, integrity, and judgment of several
parties, and turning the united exertion to the service and salva-
tion of the country. The administration had been one of influence
and intrigue ; he thanked God it was likely to terminate, but
trusted the House would not contaminate their own purpose by
suffering the present ministers to manage the appointment of their
successors.


neither It was the prerogative of tile crown to appoint minis-
did it become the House to settle who were to hold


places, or adjust and investigate the measures to be pursued.
Mr. Pox began with saying, that lie could not help admir-


ing the conduct of the worthy baronet (Sir William Dolben),
who had of late been exceedingly happy in passing panegyrics
all the noble lord, but unfortunately for him they all went di-




44 SIR JOHN ROUS'S MOTION. [March r5,.
rectly contrary to what he intended; for the noble lord's fort
was not for war, and, from his declaring against the Ameri-
cans, he had shewn that he was not a man fit for peace.
Certainly the honourable baronet ought to vote for the ques-
tion, that he might place his noble friend in a situation where
he could shine most ; seeing that for the offices he had held,
he was the most unfortunate man alive. The noble lord had
declared that he wished for peace, that he did not want to stay
in office, yet he had not sense enough, for near twenty years,
to keep himself above one year out of office ; nor had , he, al-
though a lover of peace, for eight years out of twelve, been
able to keep from war. An honourable gentleman (Mr.
Adam) had asserted, that the only reason why this country
could make no alliances was, the fault of Opposition; they and
their fathers,. had carried the nation in the last war to such a
high pitch of glory, that they had rendered her the envy of
all the world; and that the neighbouring states of Europe
had become so jealous of her, that none of them would enter
into an alliance with her. If the fact were so, Mr. Fox said,
it was assigning an odd reason for our having no allies. He
should have imagined that a nation, being in possession of
great and superior power, was the best inducement to other
states to seek an alliance with her. But if it was our greatness
that prevented our ability to form alliances at the conclusion
of the last war, and that disability arose from the glorious
successes of their fathers, and those great sea and land officers,
then sitting on his side the House, he would do the honour-
able gentleman and his party the justice to say, they had
completely undone all that work, and reduced the nation to a
state in which other courts need no longer be jealous of her
superior power, and therefore need not make that a plea for
refusing to enter into an alliance with Great Britain.—Mr.
Fox entered very much at large into what Lord North had
said, with regard to the conduct of the war, and the delusions
that had been held out repeatedly by ministers to parliament.
He declared, he till that day thought the noble lord had al-
ways acted a generous part with his colleagues, by standing up.
and desiring to share with them in their guilt, if guilt there5
was. That day, however, the noble lord, talking of the nu-
merous friends in America, of which they had heard so much,
had said, " it fell not within his department to receive informa-
tion of their numerous friends in America; that declaration
had been made by another minister." Mr. Fox reasoned upon
this, and asserted, that the noble lord had himself deluded
and deceived parliament in a variety of instances. The
noble lord had declared, that the present motion was by far
fairer than the former one: he believed him, and the noble


1732.i SIR JOHN ROI:S'S MOTION. 4g


lord had not made use of that subterfuge, which the secre-
tary at war did on Friday last, by moving a previous ques-
tion upon it; but the noble lord had explained why that
subterfuge was made use of'; it was because the former mo-
tions contained three truisms, which even the noble lord
allowed: and declared, that after having voted for the three,
the House must inevitably vote the fourth. Whether they
would or .not, he allowed the noble lord was right, and cer-
tainly the House was bound to vote the fourth; but here the
fourth proposition was altered from " want of foresight and
ability," to want of confidence: surely now no person could
be against the motion, let him be professional or not; and
however the noble lord's friends might be against letting him
quit his post, or however averse he might be himself to it,
he must, if not that night, very shortly quit it; if not by a.
voluntary resignation, by one less honourable; and this was
not the work of mere faction, for he had seen the most re-
spectable country gentlemen, both Whig and Tory, unite in
one common cause for the public good. His honourable
friend who moved the question, and his other honourable
friend who seconded it, were gentlemen that calumny could
not reach; they were not men supposed either to want, or
that would accept of places; they acted from quite different
principles. At present there was no government; it was a
kind of interregnum, and for the truth of that he applied tothe noble lord. The offices of ,


government had been for
some weeks past in most shameful disorder. Surely, then,
it was high tine for .some ministry to be established, for a
bad government was better than none; and whilst we were
in the dreadful situation mentioned, he desired gentlemen
would recollect the bill that was depending in that House,
(the navy mutiny bill,) which contained such dangerous
clauses, that he was fearful to speak out.- but the House
perfectly understood him, and he sincerely wished the bill
might not be attended with the evil he foresaw it would.


The House divided:




Tellers.
Tellers.


ItleEtArinftonieloau e


227.-1NMors {Mr. W. Alain
Mr. J. Robinson S 236.




Majori ty bi b
y,


in fa o
ministers 9. "When the minority were


effect, should


Fox said, that upon consulting with the gen-1::11B11111111.3;:a:givtiltFaulnv:l
was


right, that a motion, to the same
proposed en the Wednesday following.




46
CHANGE Or MINISTRY. [March 20, 1782.]


CHANGE OF MINISTRY. 47


CHANGE OF MINISTRY.


March 2o.


THE House being again uncommonly crowded, the Earl ofSurrey got up to make the promised motion ; but Lord North
rising at the same time, for the purpose of communicating to the
House some information, which, he said, might make any farther
proceeding in the intended business unnecessary, and would re-
quire an adjournment, great disorder and . confusion ensued, the
members in opposition calling out violently for " Lord Surrey,"
and " No adjournment." As soon as the House was reduced to
order, Mr. Fox moved, " that the Earl of Surrey be now heard ;"
when Lord North, having now obtained a right to speak to the
question, observed, that had he been suffered to proceed before,
he believed much unnecessary heat and disorder would have been
prevented. He meant no disrespect to the noble earl ; but as
notice had been given that the object of the intended motion was
the removal of his majesty's ministers, he meant to have acquainted
the House, that such a motion was become unnecessary. He could
assure the House, with authority, that the present administration
was no more, and that his majesty had come to a full determination
of changing his ministers ; and it was for the purpose of giving
the necessary time for , new arrangements that he meant to have
moved for an adjournment. The noble lord then took his leave
of the House as minister, by thanking them for the honourable
support they had given him during so long a course of years, and
in so many trying situations. He expressed his grateful sense of
their great partiality towards him on all, and their forbearance on
many occasions. A successor of greater abilities, of better judg-
ment, arid more qualified for his situation, he said, was easy to
be found ; a successor more zealously attached to the interests of
his country, more anxious to promote them, more loyal to his
sovereign, and more desirous of preserving the constitution whole
and entire, he might be allowed to say, could not so easily be
found. He concluded his speech, after declaring that he did not
mean to shrink from trial, that he should always be prepared to
meet it, that he even demanded it from his adversaries, with
moving the question of adjournment.


Mr. Fox said, that it did not seem to be a matter of great
importance, whether the motion of his noble friend, the -Earl
of Surrey, was put, or whether they trusted to the solely
'declaration made by the noble lord. He should have wished,
perhaps, that the motion might be put and carried, because
it would then manifestly appear to the nation at large, that
the ministers of the crown did not retire either from the ca-
price of this or that minister, or from their wishing to go out,.
or from their being tired of their situations, or from any of


the common reasons which ordinarily occasioned the resig-
nation of ministers, but because it was the sense of parlia-
went, that they should retire, because that House had
r s


ex-


p , slv called upon the crown for their dismission, and be-
cause the good Of the country made it absolutely necessary.
These were the reasons which impelled him to wish the motion
to be put and carried. On the other hand, they had the less
weight with him, because it was, he trusted, already suffi-


known, that the sense of parliament was against them;
and ta:lthough the motions of Friday and the Friday
before had not actually been carried, yet he considered that
motions debated in such full houses, and where the minister
had so small a majority as nine or ten, were in effect carried,
and in all reasonable construction, as much carried, as if there
had not been such a majority against them. The great end,
therefore, of carrying the motion of his noble friend, was
already, in his mind, and he believed, in the consideration
of the whole country, effectually answered. For which rea-
son, he begged, that let who would be the persons called on
by, their sovereign to form the new administration, they
might ever hold it in their minds, that his majesty's late
ministers were dismissed, because parliament disapproved of
the system of their government, and that it was evident from
parliament having gone so far to effect a removal of ministers,
that it would be expected their successors should act upon
different principles, and in a mariner totally opposite. He
declared, it had given him great pleasure, the preceding
evening, to hear an honourable member say in a thin House,
that he hoped, if his majesty's ministers were removed,
those who should be appointed in their room would no
longer govern ,


by influence and corruption, and that if per-
sons who had been in opposition came in, they would re-
ligiously adhere to their opposition principles, and not let.
it be a mere change of hands, without a chancre of measures.
He enlarged a good deal on this idea, and in a warm man-
ner declared, that he should ever hold those. rrleu infamous,
be they who they might, who altered their principles on
obtaining power; and that as the House had solemnly de-
termined by their late conduct, that they rejected and
abhorred a government of influence, the new ministers must
always remember that fact, and remember also, that they
owed their situations to that House. Mr. Fox concluded
with advising his noble friend, not to make his intended
motion that day, but to reserve it for 'Monday, in case the
noble lord's declaration should fall short of its expected com-
pletion. He also agreed to withdraw his own motion.




43 CHANGE OF MINISTRY. [March 2d.


The House, on the motion of Lord North, then adjourned to
the 23d.*


During the adjournment, the new administration was formed under
the auspices of the Marquis of Rockingham. The new cabinet was thus
composed :
First Lord of the Treasury— Marquis of Rockingham.
Principal Secretaries of State. (The third Secretaryship abolished) —


Earl of Shelburne, Hon. Charles James Fox.
Chancellor of the Exchequer—Lord John Cavendish.
First Lord of the Admiralty — Admiral Keppel (created a Viscount).
Lord Privy Seal — Duke of Grafton.
President of the Council — Lord Camden.
Master-General of the Ordnance —Duke of Richmond.
To continue Chancellor—Lord Thurlow.
Commander in Chief of the Forces — General Conway.
Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, and created Baron Ashharton


John Dunning, Esq.


Besides the above, which composed the Cabinet, the following arrange-
ments took place :
Lord Chamberlain — Duke of Manchester.
Vice-Chamberlain — Viscount Chewton.
Groom of the Stole — Viscount Weymouth.
Master of the Buck Hounds — Earl of Jersey.
Lord Steward of the Household —Earl of Carlisle.
Lord of the Bedchamber —Lord Rivers.
Treasurer of the Household —Earl of Effingham.
Comptroller of ditto —Earl of Ludlow.
Captain of the Band of Gentlemen Pensioners — Lord de Ferrars.
Lords of the Treasory — Lord Viscount Althorpe, . James Grenville, Esq.;


Frederick Montagu, Esq.
Lord Commissioners of the Admiralty Sir Robert Harland, Bart., Hugh


Pigot, Esq., Lord Duncannon, Hon. John Townshend, C. Brett, Esq.,
R. Hopkins, Esq.


Under Secretaries of State — Richard Brindsley Sheridan, Esq., Thomas.
Orde, Esq.


Attorney-General — Lloyd Kenyon, Esq.
Solicitor-General — John Lee, Esq.
Secretary at War — Hon. Thomas Townshend.
Treasurer of the Navy— Right Hon. Isaac Barre.
Paymaster-General of the Forces— Edmund Burke, Esq.
Joint Postmaster-General — Earl of Tankerville, Right Hon. H. F.Carterct."
Vice-Admiral of Scotland — Lord William Gordon.
Lieutenant General of the Ordnance — Sir William Howe.
Surveyor General of ditto.— Hon. Thomas Pelham.
To command the grand fleet — Lord Howe (created a Viscount).
Created Lord Grantiey — Sir Fletcher Norton.
Lord Lieutenant of Ireland — Duke of Portland.
Joint Vice-Treasurers of Ireland—Earl of Scarborough, Sir George


Yonge, Bart.
Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant — Colonel Fitzpatrick.
Conunandex in Chief of the Forces in Ireland Lieut.-General Burgoyne,


/782.3 AFFAIRS OF IRELAND, ale


AFFAIRS OF IRELAND.-


April 8.


ON' first day of the meeting of parliament, after the Easterrecess, as soon as the re-elected members were sworn in, the
affairs of Ireland were unexpectedly brought before the House.
Colonel Luttrell introduced the business, by stating the prevailing
discontents in that country, and the desire of ministers to remove
them, and requiring from Mr. Eden, who had filled the situation of
secretary to the Earl of Carlisle, the late lord lieutenant, an ex-
planation of the affairs of that kingdom. Mr. Eden readily entered
on the task, describing the conduct of government and opposition
for the two last years, and descanting on the valour, loyalty, and
popularity of the volunteers, whose desires and sentiments were
the desires and sentiments ofall Ireland. The declaration of rights,
so unanimously and ardently cherished, could no longer be opposed
with success : the attempt would be as vain as to make the river
Thames flow up Highgate-hill. He did- not believe the Irish would
abuse the advantages they might obtain, and they would be re-
strained from adopting measures injurious to England, since the
king, with the advice of a responsible cabinet, must sanction all
their acts. Besides the declaration of rights, the volunteers, or,
in another word, Ireland, had called fora habeas corpus, and
obtained it ; a bill for making commissions of judges quanuliu Lene
se gesserint, demanded by them, was in its progress through parlia-
ment ; the required alteration of the mutiny act might easily he
granted, and a modification of Poyning's law, which would satisfy
the people, could not be dangerous to England. He then moved
for leave to bring in a bill, " repealing so much of the act of the 6th
of George I. as asserted a right in the king and parliament of
Great Britain to make laws binding the kingdom and people of
Ireland." He did not wish to be precipitate ; but the recess of
the Irish parliament would terminate in eight days, and Mr. Grat-
tan would then renew and carry his motion for a declaration of
rights. It would surely, then, be adviseable to anticipate the
wishes of the people, to afford them a pledge of the sincerity ofEngland, a security for the permanency of the constitution, and
of that trade they were so anxious to preserve.


Mr. Secretary Fox rose. He declared he felt it necessaryto say something, though he would not make all the obser-
vations on what had fallen from the right honourable gen-
tleman on the flow-, (Mr. Eden) which had suggested them-
selves to his mind, because he must in that case greatly
fatigue the House, and because he was persuaded every
gentleman present felt as he did, on the very' extraordinaryproc


eedings of the day. The House would recollect, that
n hon


ourable gentleman behind hint, had given rise to the
vol.. Ir.


1




[April' a
S AT'f)-.1Itg. OF IRELAND;


debate, by getting up to remind them of what he had said
relative to Ireland, previous to the recess, and that the same:
honourable gentleman had called on the right honourable
member on the floor to give the House some information
respecting the state of affairs in Ireland. Upon which that
right honourable gentleman, without any previous consulta-,
tion with his majesty's ministers, without saying a syllable to
any one member of administration upon the subject, had,
thought proper to move for the repealof the 6th of George I.
thereby abandoning at once the supremacy of this country
over Ireland, and disuniting that kingdom from this at a
single stroke.. The right honourable gentleman's motion was
in substance and effect nothing less than a declaration of
unconditional submission on. the part of Great Britain, and
a. direct relinquishment of her dearest and most valuable
rights.


For himself; Mr. Fox said, he was so new in office, he had
no right to claim any respect whatever ; but for those of his-
majesty's ministers, with whom he was joined, he was war-
ranted to say, it would have been decent, it would have been
respectful to have consulted them previous to the taking any
step in parliament, on a topic of so much importance. Had the
right honourable gentleman done so, he would have learnt,.
that short as the time was, that his majesty's present ministers
had been in their situations, they had turned their most se-
rious attention to the alarming state of Ireland, and that it
was not from any indisposition to do Ireland justice, that
they bad not on that first day of their setting their feet in
that House as minister: proposed some measures, which
should in their consideration. be wise and. expedient, and likely
to conciliate the affections of the people of Ireland, and put
an end to the maxisinesses, jealousies,- mid tumults that it was.
well known had subsisted, and continued to subsist in that
much-injured country. It was not from any want of inclina-
tion to do Ireland right, that they had not yet taken such a
step, but merely from a disdain to follow the example of the
worst sort of conduct of their predecessors in office, who were
always catching at expedients of the moment, and were
rather willing to patch up a present difficulty, at any rate,
than to meet it fairly, to fathom its depth, and to consider
what was likely to be a solid and permanent means of reme-
dying a real evil, and preventing its arising in future. It was
with a view to settle the constitution of the two countries ha
such a manner as should be perfectly satisfactory to England:
and Ireland, and should promise to give a lasting harmony.
to both, that his majesty's ministers paused upon the subject;
not from any indisposition towards Ireland, not from any.


ri821


AFFAIRS or IRELAND. 51
idea that her claims were either unjust or unreasonable, not
from the most distant intention of letting them remain nrt-
aasfied. Had the right honourable gentleman thought


per
pro-


tn consult his majesty's ministers upon the subject, he
would have learnt, that the matter had been, and was under
their consideration, and that not many days, or rather not
many hours would have been suffered to pass, before some
proposition would have been offered to that House in order
to conciliate the affections of the Irish, of whose loyalty and
of whose admiration and regard for this country there could


be Ononedotlilibnt.g , however, he had learnt from the very extra-
ordinary speech of the right honourable gentleman, and that
was, the motive of his post-haste journey to England. It
was now evident, that the right honourable gentleman had
come over so suddenly for the sole purpose of surrendering
the supremacy of this country over Ireland. New as the dee-
trine of disuniting was in the mouths of the late ministers
and their friends, and ill-advised as it might be in the pre-
sent instance, he wished they had adopted it earlier, and that
the unity of the British empire had not been so obstinately




insisted on. Had the opportunity that offered for gratifying
the reasonable requests of Ireland some years ago been seized,
had her petitions been complied with when she came, to the
bar of the 1Thuse: submissive and obedient, standing, as all
who ask a Favourdo usually stand, on the justice of their
claim, rather than on their power, this country would have
acted a wise part, and might have graciously granted those
boom which bad since been, as it were, torn from her in a
manner exceedingly disgraceful to Great Britain. But in
perfect consistency to the custom of the late ministry, (by
whom every thing, that was asked, however reasonable, how-
ever right, was contemptuously denied as long as they dared
venture to deny, and then when the moment of danger
arrived, though what was barely moderate was refused before,
more than was compatible with the honour of the country,
was shamefully and meanly given up,) the °riaht honourablegentleman, who, during his ministry in Ireland, had uniformly
apposed all the claims made by different gentlemen on dif-ferent grounds, and, as flr as he had considered them, on
egxotoetliagtahoautnedSt
the Irish parliament, was the first to post


to


L:1117


Over and propose a measure of the most alarming


said
be conceived.While he id this, be begged not to be understood asgring any


on,
Opi nion whether the measure was, or was not, ap (self. He was passing no opinion upon itlratetier le Was merely describing the very extraordinary


E 9




25 AFFAIRS OF IRELAND. [April
manner in which it-was brought forward, and the nature of
it. For his part, he was most fully persuaded, that Ireland
had a just right to expect ample redress from this country
for the oppressive treatment she had long groaned under,
and he would answer for the rest of his majesty's ministers,
that they were of the same opinion; but they must be strange
counsellors of the crown, who would venture to advise his.
majesty of a sudden to come into so extensive a proposition
as that then before the House. The subject was nice, and
it required. the deepest consideration. He was not ripe to
pronounce upon the motion, but he was far from saying that.
something like it might not be proper; all he wished- was,
not to be urged to pass a hasty judgment on so important a
business.


The right honourable gentleman had talked of his ad-.
ministration having been a fortunate one ; it appeared to him
to he the oddest result of a. fortunate administration that
could be conceived, for the minister of Ireland to feel him-
self bound to post over to England, to propose such a motion
as that under discussion. God defend him from the good
fortune of producing such a consequence by his administration!
But that was not the only surprising, the only paradoxical
part of the right honourable gentleman's speech; he had
talked. of the volunteers of Ireland in a way equally unac-
countable. He had said, they took up arms in the summer
of 178o for their amusement. Oh„ most wonderful amuse-
- tient, most strange turn of diversion ! It was to that amuse-
ment, and to that diversion, that the right honourable gen-
tleman was impelled to post over to England, in order to
'make his motion. It was to the power of the volunteers of
Ireland, and not to the justice 'of their claims, that the right
honourable gentleman now felt it necessary to propose a
matter directly contrary to the whole system of his conduct
during hie adininistration. The right honourable gentleman
had said, there was no other opposition to his administration,
but such as every government must wish for, and such as just
served to keep them awake. Did the House know, what the , -
sort of opposition really was, and of whom it was constituted?
Had the House heard the names of Lord Charlemont, of
Mr. Yelverton, of Mr. Grattan, of Mr. Burgh, of Mr. Flood,
and of many others, which he - would not then mention
Names of the greatest, the ablest, and the honestest men in
Ireland ! The Lord defend him from such opposers ! The
Lord keep him from having his measures objected to by per-
sons of such wisdom, such ability, and such weight !


The whole of the right honourable gentleman's conduct.,
as the minister of Ireland, was as extraordinary a g his speech


-1132•1 AFFAIRS OF IRELAND. 53
that day. Ile had been sent over here for the express pur-
pose of' bringing the Earl of Carlisle's resignation, and of
giving his majesty's ministers full, fair; and candid infor-
illation of the state of facts -in Ireland; and how had the
right honourable gentleman complied with his instructions?
He had come to town, and finding the ministry -changed,
had sent a letter to a noble lord, (a colleague of his,) -declar-
ing that he would give them no information whatever -respect-
ing Ireland, and menacing them with a threat that 'be would,
as that day, come down to the House, and speak -upon the
subject of Ireland. He owned, for his part, that he had no
great dread of that menace, though lie was at a loss to guess
what the right honourable gentleman meant to say. The
candour of the House was what he had so often experienced,
that he was not much terrified at the right honourable gen-
tleman's threat. The House now knew what -its nature was,
and he was perfectly at their disposal.


With regard to the alarming state of Ireland, lie did not
-at all doubt hut it was pretty correctly described by the right
honourable gentleman; but then it ought to be remembered
to what it was ascribeable. He declared he felt it right to
take that opportunity of saying, that though he thought but
very indifferently of the state of the country a fortnight ago,
his opinion then was nothing compared to his knowledge upon
the same subject at that moment. His suspicions of the ne-
elieence and scandalous mismanagements of his majesty's late
ministers were now matured into ripe judgments, and he was
sorry to have found that things were infinitely worse than he
had imagined them to be, and that bad as they had been
described, the description given to that House by himself
and others from time to time fell infinitely short of the real
situation of affairs — which situation was in his mind so clearly
ascribeable to the neglects of the late ministers, that he
should not think the present administration acted tidily' and
honestly by that House and the people, if they did not in-
ssttoitoudtie.


W ith


enquiries, and such enquiries as should give the coml.,
stiliao- iail correct state of the condition, in which public matters


shouldnort begard to the present motion, he trusted that he
e misrepresented in consequence -of what he had


said upon it, and held out to Ireland as a person indisposed
to grant her relief, or unwilling: to admit the truth and just-rt
ess of her claims. On the contrary, lie thought Irelandhad strong grounds of complaint, and that her claims ought


to be complied with as far as they possibly could. He re-peated it therefore, that he and the rest of his majesty's mi-
nisters were most cordially and sincerely inclined to do


P 3




54 ArizAnis or xREI.AND. [April 8,
Ireland ample justice, and that it had been one of the first


objects of their consideration upon coming into office. That
in a few hours sonle propositions would be offered to the
House with respect to Ireland, and that he did not object to
the present motion from any conviction that it was an min,
proper one, but merely because he was not quite ripe to
say, that it was the best motion that could be brought. for-.
ward on the subject. He should therefore not meet it with
a negative, but with a previous question, or, he believed,
it would be a more regular mode of getting rid of it for
the present, by moving the order of the day upon it. He
-wished for this to give time to the king's servants to deter.
mine with precision on the plan to be offered to both emu-.
tries; and he had the utmost reason to hope and believe,
that the matter would be finally settled without any of those
consequences which the conduct of the right honourable gen..
tleman in this business had been calculated to produce. He
wished, he confessed, that the right honourable gentleman


— .


would withdraw his motion, as the hest means; and by which
an honourable friend of his, Mr. Crewe, would be able to
move for leave to bring in a bill, which he had introduced
some years ago, for disqualifying excise and custom-house
officers from voting at elections. This was a part of the plan
which had been formed when they were out of office, for
retbrming the constitution of parliament, and which they
seriously meant to undertake now with the same zeal and
attention as before. Not a day l'irould be lost until the task
of reducing the improper influence of the crown, and settling
the representation of the people upon more equal grounds,
was fulfilled. The right honourable gentleman had said,
that his opposition to the various motions that had been,Made
in the Irish House of Commons, had been supported by great
majorities, He said, that he wished these majorities had been
less. It was the greatness of those majorities and the manner
in which they were constituted, that had given offence and
jealousy to the people of Ireland. They, no doubt, desired
to see a free representation, declaring honestly their voice in




the senate. To correct the abuses in influence and repre-
sentation, would be the steady endeavours of his majesty's
ministers. He concluded with moving for the order of the
day; this-he would not have done upon any other account
than that the motion was of such a sort, and came at such a
time; but he hoped that the right honourable gentleman.
would vet withdraw it.


Mr. Fox produced the letter sent by Mr. Eden to Lord
Shelburne, and said, though it was undoubtedly of a public
:nature, yet so unwilling was he to do any thing of an indeh-


17821 itrizAiRs OF IRELAND. 55


.ate, or an unhandsome sort, that he would not read it to the
House, unless the right honourable gentleman gave him his
consent. Mr. Eden having said, he had no objection to the
letter being read, Mr.. Fox read the letter and remarked


The following is a copy thereof:— '
Dowling Street,. Apri 1 5, r 782.


" Ravin; re-considered the-conferencewith which your lordship yester-
" My Lord,


,lay indulged me, I think that I ought specifically to state my reasons for
having often declined your intimations to use to enter into opinions aria
facts respecting the present circumstances of Ireland, .and the measures
best to be pursued there. When I arrived in London, I came prepared
and disposed, and instructed to serve, most cordially, in the critical mea-
sure of closing the Lord Lieutenant's government, so as to place it with
all practicable advantages in the hands of ,whatever person his majesty's
ministers might have destined-to succeed to it.


" I pre-supposed, however, that either his excellency would be recalled
very soon, but.not without the attentions which are duelo.hini, his station;
.and his services; or that his majesty's ministers would assist and instruct
him in first concluding the business of the session, and the various public
measures and arrangements of some difficulty and consequence, which are
immediately connected with it, and which cannot le compleated in less
than four or five months.


" Finding, however, to my extreme surprize, that the manner of giving
the lieutenancy of the East Riding to Lord Carmarthen, had been such as
to amount to a marked and personal insult, when it is considered that the
thing taken is merely honourar •, and .that the.person from whom it is
taken is an absent viceroy; and hearing also from your lordship, that the
Duke of Portland is not unlikely to be made the immediate and actual
messenger of his own appointment, I from that moment declined any
communication respecting facts and measures; because this line adopted
towards the present lord lieutenant, must in my opinion be fatal to the
ease of his successors fbr a long period of time, and ruinous to all good


• government, and the consequent peace of Ireland.
" Your lordship has informed me, that this is not meant as a personal


exertion of power against Lord Carlisle, but that his majesty's ministers
have adopted this mode of removing the Lord Lieutenant, as a wise mea-
sure of government. I differ so totally in my judgment, that it would be
idle in me to trouble them further respecting Ireland.j " I shall, as the duty of my situation requires, wait on such of his ma-esty's ministers as are disposed to see me, and with that respect which is
due to them, shall submit what I have here stated.


" My next anxiety is to act as I believe Lord Carlisle would wish me
to act, for his honour and the public service,— two objects which cannot at
this moment be separated. I am ready this evening, or to-morrow morn-
ing, at any hour, to attend the commands of his majesty's ministers, either


Permit,e


separately or collectively. To-morrow at two, I shall go into the country,
to make a visit of personal respect and private friendship; and on Mon_
clay,aYi in the H
mouse of Comons, I shall state, as fully as aweak voice wilt


ad E
- 1.


tNovhfa rtw t Tco, nceive to. be the


subsequent


circumstances of Ireland : I shalldo this


only
out
mixture of complaint, and with the most anxiousregar


leis


hall l
faci litate any . ou system for the public tranquillity; Ishall let it be implied by the world, from Irish facts, in con-trctio•• n to , g treatment, that the present Lord Lieutenant of Ire-land, (I borrow a own words from his last letter to your lordship,) has


B 4




S6 AFFAIRS OF IRELAND. [April t
upon it in the course of his recitation of the different passages,
deducing an argument from the whole, that it amounted to
an express declaration, that the sender of it, on account of the
Earl of Carlisle being removed suddenly from his lieutenancy
of Yorkshire, and from his viceroyalty, would not communi-
cate with his majesty's ministers upon the subject of facts in
Ireland, though the right honourable gentleman's instructions
were to give ministers a lid): and full account of affairs there.
With regard to the recalling the Earl of Carlisle, Mr. Fox
said, it was very extraordinary for the right honourable gen-
tleman to declare himself piqued because he supposed the
Earl of Carlisle treated unhandsomely in being recalled,
although he had himself brought over the Earl's resignation,
and that couched in the most unconditional terms, without
the least hint of a desire to continue in Ireland any longer.
He protested, he had a great degree of personal regard for
the Earl of Carlisle. He knew him, and respected his abili-
ties, and by no means meant him any personal disrespect or
indignity. He reminded the right honourable gentleman of
the harsh manner in which Lord Carmarthen had been re.
moved from his lieutenancy, and what he had, among others,
said in parliament on that subject. In consistency to what
he had then said, the noble lord was restored to his lieu-
tenancy. In regard to Ireland, the Duke of Portland, who


goingwas oin over there, would, he had no doubt, from his abi-
lities and excellent character in private life, obtain the con-
fidence of Ireland ; and he thought that country, hearing of
the change of ministers, would have confidence enough in
his majesty's new servants to believe them inclined to do Ire-
land every possible justice.. Had his majesty's present mi-
nisters ever been advocates for nominal dignity, had they held
out principles of coercion, had they either in regard to Ame-
rica, or to any other part of what was formerly the British
dominions, avowed principles that savoured of severity or
despotism, he should not at all wonder at their intentions
being doubted ; but as, on the contrary, they had uniformly
avowed and acted upon doctrines of a directly opposite ten-
dency, be thought them entitled to some degree of credit
and confidence, and the more especially as be had so re-
peatedly and so expressly reprobated that sort of government,
which rested upon deceiving the people in any instance what-


had the good fortune to conduct the business of Ireland, at a most cri-tical period, without discredit to his majesty's government, and with many
increasing advantages to the interests of his kingdoms."


" I have the honour to Ve, &e.
"'WM. EDEN."


/782.] AFFAIRS OF IRELAND: 5 7


vier. He held all attempts to deceive and delude .a country
to be not more base in themselves, than weak, absurd, and
impolitic, and so fitr was he from thinking that Great Bri-
tain had a right to govern Ireland, if she did not clause to
be governed by us, that he maintained no country that ever
bad existed or did exist, had a right to hold the sovereignty
of another, against the will and consent of that other.


The motion was withdrawn with the leave of the House,


April n.


Mr. Secretary Fox presented the following message to the
Commons from the king:


" GEORGE IL
" His majesty being concerned to find that discontents and


jealousies are prevailing among his loyal subjects in Ireland, upon
matters of great weight and importance, earnestly recommends
to this House, to take the same into their most serious considera-
tion, in order to such a final adjustment as may give a mutual
satisfaction to both kingdoms."


The message being read by the Speaker ;


Mr. Secretary Fox rose and said, he- hoped gentlemen
would see, that as little time as possible had been lost by
his majesty's ministers, in paying a due attention to the affairs
of Ireland, in order to quiet those discontents and jealousies
that had prevailed there unfortunately for some time past,
but of late to a very alarming degree ; at the same time, he
hoped, he might presume upon so much credit with the House,
as to expect to be relied on, when he assured gentlemen, that
the paper that had been then read, was not procured in
consequence of what had passed in that House the preceding
day. Why that message was not brought down yesterday,
was rather owing to accident than to any other cause; the
discontents and jealousies that had subsisted in Ireland having
been one of the first objects of attention with his majesty's pre-
sent servants. He added, that it was not his purpose to do more
for the present, than to move, what undoubtedly it was the
duty of the House to vote, namely, an address to his majesty,
humbly thanking him for his most gracious message, and
assuring him, that the House would, at an early day, proceed


answer
his


to take such steps in the business, as should seem most likely
to swe majesty's request effectually. Mr. Fox said,
.the reason why he meant to proceed no farther just at thatTaoment, was, because it was the wish of his majesty's ser-
41
-ants not to follow the example of their predecessors in office,


and b


y applying a temporary remedy to a temporary evil,




5 8 AFFAIRS OF IRELAND. [April 9.
just put off the inconvenience of the day, but they were
resolved to take care to act in such a manner as should pro..
raise a permanent peace to both countries, and give a stability,
as it were, to the restoration of harmony, good humour and
friendship, between Great Britain and Ireland. The most
likely means to quiet the discontents and jealousies that sub-
sisted at present between the two countries, was, to do it in
such a manner as should settle the constitution of both, and
draw the line between them clearly and cordially, in order to
ascertain the nature of their connexions in future. It was,
he observed, impossible to do this with the little information
then before the House upon the subject; it was first necessary
for them to come at a precise knowledge of what were the
wishes and what the expectations of Ireland ; and as there
were those going there whose duty it would be to investigate
those wishes and expectations, and who would doubtless
have none of those reasons for withholding the information
they might acquire upon the subject, which some others had
declared themselves to be actuated by ; as soon as facts were
in the possession of ministers, they would communicate them
to that House, and both together might then go hand in
hand and in certainty upon the business, and do it effectually
and satisfactorily to both countries. As a new lord lieutenant
was just setting off for Ireland, Mr. Fox declared, he thought
it indispensably necessary to take that step previous to his
setting off; in order that on his arrival in Dublin, the people
of Ireland might entertain no doubt of the sincerity of the
intentions of the new ministers, nor of the incl ination of the
crown and the British parliament respecting them. Seeing
that the intentions of that House wereiounded in reality and
seriousness, he had no doubt but they would allow the delay,
(riot a long one certainly) that would necessarily be occasioned
by the adjustment of a business, from which he flattered him-
self wouldresult very beneficial consequences to the commerce
and prosperity, the case and the happiness of both countries
He • then moved, " That an humble address be presented to
his majesty, to return his majesty the thanks of this House,
for his most gracious message; and to assure his majesty,
that this House, feeling with his majesty the deapest concern
that discontents and jealousies should have arisen among his
majesty's loyal subjects in Ireland, will, without delay, take
the same into their most serious consideration, in order to
such a final adjustment as may give -mutual satisfaction to
both kingdoms."


The motion was agreed to nem.,cone.


1 782.1


AFFAIRS OF IRELAND. 59


May T 7.


It being the declared intention of administration to proceed in
this arduous business in concert with the parliament of Ireland, a
message, conceived in the same terms with those presented to the
English Houses, was sent by the Duke of Portland, the new lord
lieutenant, to the Commons of that kingdom, immediately after
his arrival, to take upon him the government. The address to
the king, in consequence of this message, was moved by Mr.
Grattan, the great and eloquent leader of the popular party.
This address, after a full and explicit assertion of the independent
rights of the kingdom of Ireland, proceeded to state the causes
of those jealousies and discontents which had arisen in that
country ; namely, the act of the 6th of George the First ; the
power of suppressing or altering bills in the privy council ; and
the perpetual. mutiny bill. It concluded with expressing their
most sanguine expectations from his majesty's virtuous choice of
a chief governor, and their great confidence in the wise auspices
and constitutional counsels which they had the satisfaction to see
his majesty had adopted. On the ground of this address, the
House of Commons this clay went into a committee of the whole
House, to take into consideration the king's speech'of the gth of
April, relative to the state of Ireland ; to which committee the
addresses of the parliament of Ireland being referred,


Mr. Secretary Fox rose. He said, that in discussing a
subject of such magnitude as that which he was about to
submit to the consideration of the committee, it was his in-
tention to speak as plainly, as roundly, and as intelligibly as he
possibly could : at the same time he was aware, that, on such
a subject, he must speak with some degree of diffidence and
caution; because he was afraid that, on one hand, he might
be thought to grant too much to Ireland ; while, on the
other, some might think that he did not grant enough : at
all events, he would s*ak his sentiments with freedom;
desiring, however, that what :should fall from him might be
considered principally as coming from him in the capacity of
an English member of parliament, rather than as a minister.


Having premised this, he entered upon the subject. The
committee, he observed, must know from the address that
had been just read, that the parliament of Ireland had spoken


16:1:;
01and stated m clear terms, what it was -that they re-


quired. The great points to which the claims or the Irishparliament were directed, appeared to be the repeal of the
George the First ; the restoration of the appellantJurisdiction


• the modification of Poyning's law ; and the
repeal of the perpetuating clause `in the mutiny bill. On
each of these points, he intended to offer a 'few observations
to the committee.


-0




6o


AFFAIRS OF IRELAND.
[May t7;


And first, with regard to the act of the 6th of George the
First, it had always been his opinion out of office, that it 'was
downright tyranny to make laws for the internal government
of a people, who were not represented among those by whom
such laws were made. This was an opinion so founded in
justice, in reason, and in equity, that in no situation had he,
or would he ever depart from it : it was true, nevertheless,
that he was not an enemy to the declaratory act, which had
been passed relative to America ; yet his principles were not
inconsistent nor incompatible with that act. He had always
made a distinction between internal and external legislation ;
and though it would be tyranny to attempt to enforce the
former, in countries not represented in the British parlia-
ment, yet he was clear that the latter was, in reason and in
policy, annexed to the British legislature; this right of pre-
rogative or supremacy, lie was convinced, would never have
given umbrage to any part of the British empire, if' it had
been used solely for the general good of the empire; but
when it was made an instrument of tyranny and oppression,
it was not to be thought wonderful, that it should excite
discontents, murmurings, and opposition. When local legis-
latures were established in different parts of the empire, it
was clear that it was for this purpose, that they might answer
all municipal ends; and the great superintending power oft.
the state ought not to be called into action, but in aid of the
local legislature, and for the good of the empire at large ;
but when ministers, judging by what they had, of what they
might have, carried the principle of external to internal
legislation, and attempted to bind the internal government
of its colonies by acts, in the passing of .which ,the colonies
had no voice, that power, which, on proper occasions, would -
have been cheerfully obeyed, created animosity and hatred,
and had produced the dismemberment of an empire, which,
if properly exerted, it would have served to unite and bind
in the firmest manner.


Ireland had the same reason to spurn at this power of
external legislation, because it had been hitherto employed
for the purpose only of oppressing and distressing her. Had
Ireland never been made to feel this power as a curse, She
never would have complained of it; and the best and most
effectual way to have kept it alive, would have been, not to
have made use of it. Ireland would then have suffered this
harmless power to exist in the statute book ; she never would
have called out for a renunciation of it. But, fatally for this
country, this power of external legislation had been employed
against Ireland as an instrument of oppression, to establish
an impolitic monopoly in trade; to enrich one country at the


782.3 AFFAIRS OF IRELAND. 61


expellee of the other. When the Irish first- complained of
this monopoly about four years ago, and asked as favours
what they might have claimed as a right, they were opposed
in that House ; and their demands, which were no less
modest than just, were disregarded. It was not local or com-
mercial jealousy, so common in all countries, that had ope-
rated to the disappointment of the Irish at that time ; their
demands had been rejected, when the then first confidential
servant of the crown in that House came down to vote against
them; the influence of the minister was exerted, perhaps for
the purpose of preserving a few votes on other occasions;
and the rights and distresses of Ireland were consigned to
oblivion. Thus the supreme power of the British parliament
was employed to gratify a few, and to distress a whole king-
dom. What was the consequence ? The Irish finding, that
they bad nothing to expect in the British House of Com-
mons from the j ustice of their demands, found resources
in themselves; they armed; their parliament spoke out; and
the very next year, the same minister who before had put
a negative on all their expectations, came clown to the
House, and making the amende honorable for his past con-
duct, gave to the demands of an armed people, infinitely
more than he had refused to the modest applications of an
unarmed humble nation. Such had been the conduct of the
then minister and his colleagues; and this was the lesson that
the Irish had been taught : " If you want any thing, seek not
for it unarmed and humbly; but take up arms, speak man-
fully and boldly to the British ministry, and you will obtain
more than you at first might have ventured to expect."
This was the happy consequence of the ill use made of the
superintending power of the British parliament, which was
perverted from its true use, and instead of being the means
of rendering the different parts of the empire happy and
connected, had made millions of subjects rise up against a
power, which they felt only as a scourge. If, therefore, he
should be obliged to move any proposition that might appear
humiliating on the part of Great Britain, or hurtful to the
pride of Englishmen, the fault was not his; it was the fault
of those who had left it in the power of the volunteers to
make the demands contained in the addresses on the table;
-%-ho had left it in their power, not by leaving arms in their.


but leaving them their injuries and oppressions.
It was his intentionnot to pursue


u
the footsteps of his prede-


cessors; and therefore he would agree to the demands of the.
relative to the repeal of the 6th of George I., not


because
was iause nntimidated, and afraid to oppose those


s; but because he believed them to he founded in




6z AFFAIRS OF IRELANI). [May 17,


justice ; and he would have been as ready to grant them if
Ireland made them now, in the same unarmed and modest
manner, in which she preferred her complaints four years
ago. A man must be a shallow politician indeed, who could
not find means of distressing Ireland, and making her feel
the weight of calamity ; it might be distressing to Ireland, if
his majesty's servants should advise the king not to give his
assent to the bill for quieting the possession of those who hold
estates in Ireland, under English laws ; the resources of this
country were amply sufficient for the purposes of devastation;
the deserted towns and villages, the ruined provinces of
America, would bear testimony to the power of the British
arms to depopulate countries, mid deluge them with blood ;
but he mast be a shallow politician who would resort to such
means to enforce obedience to laws, which were odious to
those whom they were made to bind. For his part, he had
rather see Ireland totally separated from the crown of Eng-
land, than kept in obedience only by force. Unwilling sub-
jects were little better than enemies; it would be better not,
to have subjects at All, than to have such as would be cona
tinually on the watch, to seize the opportunity of making
themselves free. If this country should attempt to coerce
Ireland, and succeed in the attempt, the consequence would
be, that, at the breaking out of every war with any foreign
power, the first step must be to send troops over to secure
Ireland, instead of calling upon her to give a willing support
to the common cause.


Having said thus much with regard to the repeal of the 6th
of George I., which he intended to agree to in the most un
eqnivocal planner, he touched next upon the appellant juris-
diction. Upon this question he thought there was no manner
of difficulty whatever ; for when the great question of legisla-
tion was given up, he did not see that it was of any conse-
quence still to maintain to this country the jurisdiction in
appeals : but even if it was a desirable object, or likely to
strengthen the tie between the two countries, it must be given
up, for the Irish insisted upon it ; and there was a particular
reason for complying with their desires on that head. The
decrees or judgine»ts of our courts of law here in matters of
appeal, were to be carried into execution—where' In Ire-
land. By whom? By the people of Ireland. Now, as ;.lie
people of Ireland had one and all declared, that they would
not execute or obey any order of any English tribunal, it
would be nugatory and absurd to maintain the appellant juris-
diction to Great Britain ; and consequently it. would be better
to give it up with a good grace, than to keep it as ?, bone of
Wntention between the two countries.


1 78'2.] AFFAIRS or IRELAND. 63


Ile came next to the modification of the law of Poyning,
admitted, bl


been
ni en ud, said, that by this law, a strange


alteration made in the form- of the constitution of
Ireland, by making the privy-council of that kingdom a branch
of the legislature; and those who were acquainted with the


ti n beha


nature of the interference of that privy-council, knew very
well, that it was of the greatest detriment to the state; for
pot onl y it sometimes suppressed bills which had passed the
House of Lords or Commons, nemine . dissentiente ; but such
was the nature of it, that bills were sometimes passed accord-
ing to form indeed, but in fact, nemine assentiente ; when it
was contrary to the intention of any man m the House, that
such bills should pass, they were nevertheless supported by all,
in confidence that in the privy-Council they would be thrown
out. This kind of conduct was merely to gain popularity;
that men who did not wish to oppose popular opinions, which
they did not approve, should nevertheless unanimously give
way to those opinions, merely because they knew they would
be rejected in the privy-council. For his own part, he was
free to confess that the interference of that body, and their
power to stop bills in their progress from parliament to the
king, appeared to him improper ; and therefore he could have
no objection to advise his majesty to consent to the modifica-
tion that they required, of that law, from which the privy-
council derived that power. But the jealousies of the Irish
went farther; they were jealous of the interference of the
English privy-council; and he admitted that the alterations
which had sometimes been made by it in Irish bills, had given
but too just cause for jealousy. It was generally understood
in Ireland, that Irish bills were frequently altered in England
with very little consideration, and sometimes by a single per-
son, the attorney-general; which single person the Irish
imagined made alterations, without giving that attention to
the bills which the importance of the subject required. He
would not say that these opinions were in general well found-


been grossly
'


ed; but this he wasaconvinced of, that, like the 6th of Geor ge I.,
this power of altering might have still remained, if an im-
praod p er use had not been made of it; but to his knowledge it
h
had


r l abused; in one instance, in particular, a bill


)


b


11 o


een


f the


sent over to England t -


of the dissenters,
for


two years ago, granting, and


.


very wisely and very justly granting, indulgences to the Ito-.
man Catholics; in that same bill there was a clause in favour


e


descr ipt ions '


policy,th
ss t rs, or repealing the ancramental test; this clause


was struckc out,


ascontrary, in his opinion, to sound
anon


n C`.0
a tended to make an improper discrimination be-


11
lter ti


two


of men, which did not tend to the
14114 people, It was by such conduct, that the IrishI


II




AFFAIRS OF IRELAND.
[May t


were driven to pronounce the interference of the English
privy-council in altering their bills, a grievance, though in
his opinion the power would never have been complained of,
if it had never been abused.


He came lastly to the mutiny bill, and he freely confessed,
that it was no matter of surprise, that the Irish should object
to a clause which gave a perpetual establishment to a military
force in their country ; and so hostile did he deem such a
clause to the constitution of England as well as of Ireland,
that if the Irish had never mentioned this law among their
grievances, he would have held it to be his duty, as an En-
glishman, to have recommended the repeal of it. The Irish
must naturally feel that jealousy for their constitution, which
the English feel for theirs, and which they express by passing
a mutiny law only for one year : this perpetuating clause had
this effect also, that it rendered the interference of the English
privy-council still more and more odious. All that remained
at present, was to spew a readiness to satisfy the Irish on this
head, and remove or repeal the clause in question.


Having thus gone through the various grievances and de-
mands of Ireland, he observed, that the committee must see
that there were only one or two points, in which the interfe-
rence of the British parliament was necessary ; and these
were the repeal of the 6th of George I. and the restoration
of the appellant jurisdiction to Ireland : the other points lay--
between the parliament of Ireland and the king ; and cer-
tainly he should, as one of the servants of the crown, advise
his majesty to satisfy the other demands of his Irish subjects.
Ireland had spoken out, and clearly and plainly stated what
she wanted; he would be as open with her, and though he
might perhaps have been better pleased, if the mode of ask-
ing had been different, still he would meet her upon her own
terms, and give her every thing she wanted, in the way
which she herself seemed to wish for it. She therefore coal&
have no reason to complain; the terms acceded to by England,
were proposed by herself; the manner of redress had been
prescribed by herself, and ail her wishes would now be gra-
tified in the way which she herself liked best. But as it was
possible, that if nothing more was to be done, than what he.
had stated to be his intention, Ireland might perhaps think
of fresh grievances, and rise yearly in her demands, it was : t
and proper that something should be now done towards esta-
blishing on a firm and solid basis the future connection of
the two kingdoms. But that was not to be proposed by Ilia.
here in parliament ; it would be the duty of the crown to look
to that; the business might be first begun by his majesty's"
servants in Ireland; and if afterwards it should be nccessarY


/782t] AFFAIRS or IRELAND. 65
to 'enter into a treaty, commissioners might be sent from the
British parliament, or from the crown, to enter upon it, and
bring the negociation to ahappy issue, by giving mutual satis-
faction to both countries, and establishing a treaty which
should be sanctified by the most solemn forms of the consti-
tut sbtoatnlid iciolguntt


iis
ries.Nioontssv


of country was parting with what she
had hitherto held and exercised, still he could not look upon
this day as a day of humiliation to her; she was giving up


:itfh


what it was just she should give up ; and in so doing, she
was offering a sacrifice to justice; policy and justice com-
bined to induce her to offer it ; but he should be sorry that
an idea should prevail, that she was giving to fear what she
would deny to justice : fear, he declared, was out of the
question. He said he entertained no gloomy thoughts with
respect to Ireland : he had not a doubt but she would be
satisfied with the manner in which England was about to
comply with her demands; and that in affection, as well as
in interest, they would be but one people. If any man en-
tertained gloomy ideas, he desired him to look at the con-
cluding paragraph of the Irish addresses, where he would find,
that the Irish people and parliament were filled with the most
earnest desire to support England, to have the same enemy
and the same friend ; in a word, to stand or fall with Eng-
land. He desired gentlemen to look forward to that happy
period, when Ireland should experience the blessings that
attend freedom of trade and constitution ; when by the rich-
ness and fertility of her soil, the industry of her Manufac-
turers, and the increase of her population, she should become
a powerful country ; then might England look for powerful
assistance in seamen to man her fleets, and soldiers to fight her
battles. England, renouncing all right to legislate for Ireland,
the latter would most cordially support the former as a friend-
-whom she loved; if this country, on the other hand, was to
assume the powers of making laws for Ireland, she must only
make an enemy instead of a friend; for where there was not a
community of interests, and a mutual regard for those in-terests, there the party whose interests were sacrificed, became
an enemy. The intestine divisions of Ireland were no more;the r


eligious prejudices of the age were forgotten, and theRoman Catholics being restored to the rights of men and citi-
tieens,


would become an accession of strength and wealth toempire at large, instead of being a burthen to the landth'at bore them. The dissenters had tasted of the liberalitythe legislature,caf th clp re, and now in common with their Roman()1Lc brethren, would enjoy. that happy toleration whichvox.
F




66 AFFAIRS OF IRELAND. [May 17.
did not confer more happiness on those who were the objects
of it than honour on those who established it.


Upon the whole, he was convinced that the Irish desired
nothing more ardently than proper grounds for being most
cordially united to England ; and he was sure that they would
be attached to this country, even to bigotry. Of the volun-
teers, he must speak respectfully : they had acted with temper
and moderation, notwithstanding their steadiness ; and he
must in justice to them, and to his own principles, declare,
that they had not done a single act, for which they had not
his veneration and respect ; and whatever blame there might
be discovered in the course of the business, he did not impute
a particle of it to Ireland ; but laid it all at the door of the
late administration. He concluded by moving, " 4 That it is
the opinion of this committee, that the Act of the 6th of
George I., intituled, ' An Act for the better securing the


dependency of the kingdom of Ireland, upon the crown of
= Great Britain,' ought to be repealed."


Mr. Thomas Pitt seconded the motion, and members of all par-
ties concurred in applauding it. Lord Beauchamp alone expressed
a doubt, that the repeal, leaving the question of right undecided,
would not satisfy the English nation. Mr. Burke said, that it was
not on such a day as that, when there was not a difference of opi-
nion, that he would rise to fight the battle of Ireland ; her cause
was nearest his heart; and nothing gave him so much satisfaction,
when he was first honoured with a seat in that house, as the idea
that it might be in his power, some way or other, to be of service
to the country that gave him birth ; he had always said to himself,
that if such an insignificant member as he was could ever be so
fortunate as to render an essential service to England, and that his
sovereign, or parliament, were going to reward him for it, he would
say to them, " Do something for Ireland ; do something for my
country, and I am over rewarded." He was a friend to his coun-
try; but gentlemen need not be jealous of that ; for in being the
friend of Ireland, he was of course the friend of England ; their
interests were inseparable.


Mr. Fox, in his reply to Lord Beauchamp, said, that O-
A Was his intention to do away completely the idea of Eng-
land legislating for Ireland, so he should have no objection
to word the repealing act in such manner, as to make it con-
tain a specific renunciation of the right claimed by this coun-
try to legislate for Ireland. It was the same with respect
Clive appellant jurisdiction, he had not the least objection to,
,give it up in toto ; after' having given up legislation, he could
not stand out for comparatively an insignificant object; ap-
peals were not the bond of connection between the two cowl'


o


1782.]
STATE OF THE REPRESENTATION.


67


tries; loyal and attached as the Irish were to his ma-i
person and government, it was not the king that was


t


sieesciiief bond of union ; it was a communion of affection,
of regard, of brotherly love, of consanguinity, and of con-
stitution. With regard to the bill, commonly called Mr.Yelverton's bill, as it was founded on this principle, thatEngland cannot legislate for Ireland, a principle milita,iny
against a positive act of parliament, the privy council could
not advise the king to give his assent to it; but if the House
should consent to the repeal of the act, then of course theprivy council might advise the passing of the bill, and then
no doubt it should be sent back to Ireland.


The motion passed without a division ; as did also the following
‘, That it is the opinion of this committee, that it is indispensable
to the interests and happiness of both kingdoms, that the con-
nection between them should be established, by mutual consent,
upon a solid and permanent basis." After which, the House re-
solved, on the motion of Mr. Pox, " That an humble address be
presented to his majesty, that he will be graciously pleased to
take such measures as his majesty in his royal wisdom shall think
most conducive to the establishing, by mutual consent, the con-
nection between this kingdom and the kingdom of Ireland, upon
a solid and permanent basis."


MR. MITT'S MOTION ON THE STATE OF THE REPRESEN.
TATION.


May 7.
R. WILLIAM PITT brought the subject of a reform in the
constitution of parliament again before the House. Theins


uperable difficulties that had occurred in bringing the friends
of such r


eformation to agree in any specific proposition, inducedhim
on the present occasion to vary the mode of proceeding, andto move, That a committee be appointed to enquire into thepresent


state
of the representation of the Commons of Great Bri-


what steps in their opinion
tain in parliament, to report file same to the House, and likewise


't may be proper for parliament to take,con
cerning the same." The debate was long, and ably. supported1!1?' the mover, Mr. Sawbridge, Sir George Savile, Mr. Secretaryl' o


x, and others on the side of a reform.


a M1. Secretary Fox said, he rose with pleasure to 'speak ontopic in which the rights of the people,. and the freedomof the
subject, were so materially concerned. It was always


P 2




1782.]


BILL FOR PREVENTING BRIBERY, &C. 69


not more than a fifty-fifth part of the representation: certainly,
no man in that House could in justice contend, that the county
of Middlesex was fairly represented ;` but if they did, he must
differ from them materially. He paid a Variety of compli-
ments to Mr. William Pitt, for his steady attachment to liberty,
and was fearful that nothing but the most imminent danger
would awaken the people to a sense of their danger. He re-
probated the ruinous measures of the late ministry, and de-
clared that lie wished for no other support than what would
naturally come from a thorough conviction that his measures
were right.


The motion was opposed by Mr. Powys, Mr. Thomas Pitt,
m•. Dundas, Mr. Rosewarne, Mr. Rigby, and others. Sir Horace
Mann having moved " That the other order of the day be now
read," the House divided :


Tellers. Tellers
{Mr.Yorke,Cambridgesh.


.—No r sMr. Macdonald 6
lyinw itt


EDAlsr. Pitt's motion was consequently rejected. Mr.Byng
f 141.


LORI> 'MAHON'S BILL FOR PREVENTING BRIBERY AND
EXPENCE AT ELECTIONS.


June 19.


ON the 2 3 d of May, Lord Mahon obtained leave to bring in a
bill for the better preventing bribery and expense in elections


of members to serve in parliament. The bill was immediately pre-
sented and read a -first time. It was afterwards read a second
time and committed. On the igth of June a motion was made fortaking the report into consideration. Upon this occasion Mr.
William Pitt warmly supported the bill. He was astonished, he
said, that any gentleman should be hostile to a measure, which, in
his opinion, was highly constitutional. It had been called an inno-
vation ; it was no innovation. It referred merely to the mode ofconducting a very constitutional business ; .a mode which had con-tinually warred with the times ; a mode which had admitted of thegrossest abuses. The regulation of this was no innovation, but arestoration of the constitution. There was indeed, nothing in the '
ill which did not meet his fullest approbation. It was calculated


e a number of very useful laws, which, from the relaxationof m


mori..a Secretary


hra: almost become obsolete. He was replied to by


the
e Fox, who, after paying every compliment to


Preceding speaker, contested all his arguments with his
F 3


68 STATE OF THE REPRESENTATION. [May 7,


contended, he said, that the people of England were virtu
ally represented, and it had been carried farther ; some per-
sons had formerly said, that the people of America were in
fact as much represented as the people, of Birmingham;
though he was free to confess, that by the present House of
Commons the people were virtually represented; yet a vir-
tual representation was only a mere succedaneum for an equal
representation, and gentlemen who were so strenuous for the
support of the present constitution, frequently made use of
the franchise granted to freeholders by Henry the VIth,
various ways, as best suited their purpose. If they would
only recollect, a freeholder of forty shillings in those days
was a man of great estate; to exclude every man now from
voting who .had not an estate equal to forty shillings in those
times, would be excluding the greatest part of the present
freeholders. That the voice of the people was not to be
collected from the votes of that House was plain, for in all
the great questions for the welfare of the country, he had
observed that the country members, who were most likely
to be independent, had uniformly voted, in a proportion of
five-sixths for the question, but had been overpowered by
the members for the rotten boroughs, which totally defeated
every good end that could be proposed. The Duke of Rich-
mond, he said, had last year introduced a bill into the other
House of Parliament for an equal representation ; he could
not, he owned, subscribe to all the parts of that bill, but he
was convinced that the noble peer meant it for the public
good ; for he was not ashamed to confess that he looked upon
him as the most able and fit Irian to bring about a reform of
any that this country could boast. It had been said, that
to add members to the counties would be encreasing the
aristocratic influence: he owned it would; and in some mea-
sure he confessed himself a friend to that doctrine; but he
would wish to be understood, at the same time, not to mean
the influence of peels, but to consider the monied interest
as the aristocratic part; men who had stakes to lose ought,
and he trusted would be the most anxious, to preserve them.,,*
It had been suggested to him, that the army and navy ought'
to be excluded that House; he was of quite a different opi-
nion ; for he could wish in order to make that House perfect,
that it should contain the landed, the navy, the army, the
monied, and in short every interest; but it did not at pre-
sent; and the city for which he had the honour to sit Nos
so little represented, that the county in which it stood, al-
though it contained one-eighth part of the whole number of
electors of Great Britain, although it ,,ax, one-sixth part of
the land-tax, and a full third of all other taxes, yet it had


Ada




70 BILL FOR PREVENTING BRIBERY, A.C. [June 19•
usual ability and address. He denied, that the principle of
the bill had been fairly stated by his honourable friend. He
wished by no means to countenance a measure which should
carry on the face of it a sort of discordance, or at least a dis-
similarity of sentiment between candidates and voters. He
was for cultivating the connection between the elector and
elected, by all possible expedients. It was by intimacy, that
character, virtue, property well occupied, had 'their natural
flu.nce. Why should they endeavour to circumscribe the very
few privileges the electors of Great Britain retained? Was
it not their business to-give them every assistance for extending
their franchises? And nothing could possibly enhance the
natural independence of Fnglish electors, more than upon an
occasion of elections, obliging their friends, or preferring
to the highest honour of the country those who, in their
opinion, seemed most deserving of it. Mr. Fox said he was
not fund of recurring to those times when representatives were
paid for their trouble by those they represented. This circurn-s
stance sounded very high with some people now. But whence
did it arise ? This house was then of little or no weight, in
the government of the country. And those arguments which
referred to such ancient usages could be of no more use, than
to put the House of Commons in mind of its ancient insignifi-
cance. lie said that nothing that could injure the cause of
the people, had any support to expect from him ; and when-
ever the honourable gentleman came forward with his ideas,
of an equal representation, he, might depend on his warmest
concurrence, and firm support. This was a point in which
they could never disagree. On the present bill, however, their
opinions did not meet, and he had stated with great deference
those reasons which made him differ from him.


The question being put, the House divided :
Tellers. Tellers.


YEAS Lord Mahon6o. Mr. Plumes 1 „
Mr. Cocks OESN / Mr. Sheridan i "'


So it was resolved in the affirmative : but on the z 1st, the bill
being recommitted, several clauses containing the pith and marrow
of it, being thrown out, Lord Mahon begged leave to withdraw
the bill ; welch was accordingly granted.


/782•]
CHANGE OP MINISTRY. 7


DEATH OF THE MARQUIS OP ROCKINGHAM. — RESIGNATION
OF MR. Fox. — CHANGE OP MINISTRY.


July 9.


Wv
IIILST parliament was successfully engaged in prosecuting


the most effectual measures for the security of its own inde-
pendenc e, for healing the breaches of the constitution, and reliev-ing the burdens of the people, a heavy calamity was approaching,
which again darkened the prospect that had so happily opened to
the nation. This was the loss of the Marquis of Rockingham ;
whose health had been for some time gradually declining, and at
length sunk under the increasing weight of public cares and busi-
ness. The first step taken by the Court after his death, which
happened on the 1st of July, was the appointment of the Earl of
Shelburne to be his successor in the treasury. Lord John Caven-
dish and Mr. Fox soon afterwards resigned their offices, and were
followed by the Duke of Portland ; Mr. Montagu and Lord
Althorpe, from the board of treasury ; by Lord Duncannon and
Mr. J. Townshend from the admiralty ;- by Mr. Burke, and by
Mr. Lee the Solicitor-General. Mr. William Pitt was made
chancellor of the Exchequer ; Mr. T. Townshend and Lord Gran-
tham, secretaries of state ; Mr. Pepper Arden succeeded Mr. Lee ;
the Lord Advocate of Scotland succeeded Mr. Barre, who was
removed to the pay-office ; and Earl Temple was appointed to
the lord-lieutenantcy of Ireland. The secession of such a weight
of talents and integrity from the service of government, could not
be regarded with indifference. The motives which were supposed
to have actuated them, were variously represented ; and some
insinuations being thrown out, highly injurious to the public
character of the persons concerned, the first opportunity was
taken of bringing the subject to an open discussion in the House
of Commons. Accordinglyhe gth of July, a debate havingy, on
arisen on a motion relative to the pension of 30001. a-year granted
to Colonel Barre, the divisions that had prevailed amongst his
majesty's servants were strongly retorted on those who had formed
the last, by Mr. Bamber Gascoyne, a member of the old admini-
stration ; and this discord was alleged to be the more culpable at
present, on account of the very critical and alarming situation of
affairs. Upon this occasion,


Mr. Fox rose. He said, that he had the honour to be
one of his majesty's confidential servants when that grant,
which was now the object of debate, was agreed to ; and
although he was not the person in whose department it lay
to advise the King on the subject, still he held himself as
responsible to parliament for the advice that was given. He


ably performed;
the pensionas a payment for services most honour-


and he by no means, on the maturest
4




7 2 CHANGE OF MINISTRY. [Jely9„
beration, thought that, all the circumstances considered, it:
was either a lavish or a misapplied grant. Having gieen4
honourable testimony to the character of Colonel Barre, and
to his merits, as well as to the integrity of the noble Marquis,
who, by being at the head of the Treasury, was immediately
concerned in the grant now in the consideration of the House,
he said, that at the same time that they acknowledged the
justice of the present grant, and of another which had been
alluded to in that House, the pension granted to Lord Ash-
burton, it was peculiarly honourable to the friends and con-
nections of the deceased Marquis, that all the acts of his
administration, which had ever been complained of in that
House, had ever given rise to a motion, or had ever been
alluded to in a speech, were acts of friendship to men with
whom he had little or no connection; with whom he had no
remarkable coincidence of sentiment ; men who were not
attached to him in any shape whatever ; but who were distin-
guished by their intimacy and connection with another noble
person, who made a part of that administration, and Who now
was to be the head of the new one. The only jobs in which
the Rockingham administration were concerned, were jobs
for two men, neither friendly to their persons nor principles.
An honourable gentleman had said, that the grant was un-
wise, impolitic, and lavish, and that it was peculiarly so, in
coming ftom men who had so loudly talked of reform, and
of the necessity of public economy. To all this he could
only say, that the pension now bestowed, was a thing, in fact,
contributing to public reform,. for it was a reward, bestowed
on a man, who had most nobly pursued the object of public
reform, but who had certainly not been singular in that im-
portant matter, as it had come from an honourable gentle-
man who sat behind him (Mr. Burke). To reward the
'labours of men who had the good of the public in view,
was always politic, and could not he stigmatized with the
character which was due to the lavish and improvident acts
of the late ministry. It was however to be observed by that
House, and to be remembered by the people, that the only
favours which had been conferred, and the only defalcations
from that principle which had taken place during the short
ministry of the Marquis of Rockingham, had all been in favour
of that person and his friends who were now to form the ad-


. ministration of this country.
But a right honourable gentleman had particularly alluded


to the present circumstances of the ministry, and to the
division which had lately taken place: he had said that they
resembled their predecessors in being disunited, and divided
in their counsel. To this he must answer, that he had


1782.]
CHANGE OF MINISTRY. 73


blamed the last ministry for having the meanness to continue
when they found themselves divided ; and to hold theto act,


reins of government, when they saw that there was no con-
cert nor unanimity among themselves. He blamed the


Lord in the blue ribbon 'for having remained in
p lace, responsible for measures of which he had not cordially
nobl


approved, and when he found himself at the head of distracted
councils.


He blamed him for continuing in power under such cir-
cumstances, and having done this, having charged him' with
(mitt for having continued in such a situation, what was
left for him, when he found himself in a similar situation ?
Most undoubtedly to retire, when he found himself in a
cabinet divided upon points which he considered of the
utmost importance. -Without treachery to his country, he
could not remain in power when such opinions were held,
and such a system was to be begun, as he considered to be
dangerous, if not fatal. He retired, therefore, to prevent
disunion, to prevent the distraction which he conceived to
be so ruinous, and by so doing he had at least preserved to
himself the consolation of e"reflectine., thatdiet he had not -
mained in power longer than the system upon which they
came in continued to be pursued. He considered it as honour-
able to the party with which he had the happiness to act, that
they had not been the hunters of pensions, and of emoluments ;
and that though it might be a proof of wisdom in some men
to secure profit and emolument to themselves, it was a point
of wisdom with which they were particularly unacquainted;
but there were men so wise in their generation, that they had
always taken care to look forward to profit, and were like-
wise careful to secure to themselves this profit, by the labours
of others.


He thought himself bound to answer to his country for his
conduct in having withdrawn himself from a cabinet which
had been formed by the firmness and opinion of the country
at so critical and alarmine. a1 He must, therefore, saw,polio( .
that when he went into that cabinet, he considered himself
as pledged to his country for the system to be pursued. He
was in that particular situation which demanded from him
the most explicit, fair, and direct proceeding; it was his
disposition so to act; in the discharge of his duty to his king
and country, he was anxiously solicitous that the principles
upon which they came in should be most religiously anti im-
plicitly




b
observed. What, then, could he do, when to his plain


and evident conviction those principles were departed from by
Some of those Ministers ? It was his immediate duty to retire
fro— a situation,


ituati , in which he could no longer act with




honour to himself; as he could no longer act with service to
his country. When he saw that there was no prospect of
those principles being any longer pursued, upon -which the
administration had been framed ; when he was farther con.
firmed in his opinion, by seeing that his immediate friend s
were equally alarmed, and saw with the same eyes, he felt it
to be his immediate duty to retire from his post ; to leave
those persons, who thus chose to abandon principles, and
on the most important point of all the points which gave
rise to their ministry, chose to deviate into new grounds,
to their new system ; and that he ought instantly to come
forward and to declare the suspicions which he entertained,
and to warn that House against the system which was to be
revived.


He declared, that he, for himself, felt it to be his peculiar
duty to observe the conduct of the men who were appointed to
fill the offices of government; for having to answer to that
House for the exact system which they had pointed out in the
formation of the ministry, of which he made one, and having
declared that he should certainly depart from that cabinet,
whenever that cabinet should depart from the system, he did
now think it his duty to come forward, and to declare that he
had left his situation, and had resigned, because he believed
the day was come when the system was to be abandoned, when
new opinions and a new system were to be formed, or rather
when an old one was to be revived. He said that he could
not, and he must not, for obvious reasons, enter into a detail
of the matters which had given rise to this difference between
himself and others who had retired, and those who remained
in the councils of the King; he could only say, that there were
several points on which they had most materially differed, and
after which he should have considered himself as guilty of
the most direct treachery to his country, if he had continued
any longer to hold out his name and support to an administra-
tion, which was not pursuing the line chalked out for them by
that House, and by the people of England. His situation was
so peculiar in that House, that he should have been particularly
unpardonable, if he had been mean enough to submit to con-
tinue in a situation which he could not hold for the service of
his country. For it was to him in particular that that House
would look, as from his situation lie had to come down with
the measures of the cabinet; and being given to understand
that he was looked to, from the promises v-hich he had made,
and told by persons, whom all men must respect, that they
should consider his continuance in office as a proof that the
principle was rightly pursued, and that they should expect hint
to come forward and give the signal when the system Was


Play 9.
1782.] CHANGE OF MINISTRY. 75


and when the principle was abandoned, he felt it to
chanted,


indispensably necessary that he should come forward and


ilbeiTcltilie'liaey had, with due
alarum bell, and tell this country that the principle on


deliberation, formed this administra-


ti;I'd,
wassa


t probably
-


s


abandoned, and that the old system was to be re
with the old men, or indeed with any


been
could


said


abied foofu 11
him, and he must answer to the charge,


men
It tha


that he
places


had
and power.


out . upon
This he


pique,
denied.


dthat
They


was
e haad


contest
takenb ut


a strange method of showing their fondness for emolument, by
suffering all the favours and grants, all the pensions and gifts,
to go in favour of those who were now to be the ministers.
But it was a ridiculous charge, and he was happy to know
that men of the most respectable characters, who were them-
selves in the secrets of the cabinet, and who were possessed of
the purest and most inflexible principles of integrity, approved
of this conduct, and agreed with him in thinking that they
could not, and ought not, to have any farther confidence in
those men, who were now to direct the councils of this country.
He had no enmity against those persons, he had no personal
nor private enmity to them, but undoubtedly their conduct
was reproachable and blameable in his opinion to a very high
degree. They were men of that magnanimity of mind which.
was superior to the common feelings of humanity, for they
thought nothing of promises which they had made ; of engage-
ments into which they had entered; of principles which they had
maintained ; of the system on which they had set out. They
were men whom neither promises could bind, nor principles of
honour could secure; they would abandon fifty principles for


r y
the lonsake


ger
of


necessa
power, and forget fifty promises, when they were


secure themselves
to
in the power


ends. He had no doubt, but that
t which they had by the labour
of others obtained, they would . now strive to strengthen them-
selves by any means which corruption could procure; and he


by
to see that, in a very short time, they would be joined


those men, whom that House had precipitated from their
seats.


those distinctionswhich.
quitted his seat without a pang. He was not insensible to


with l


For his own part, he was free to confess, that he had not


consider t'


pable of vanity nor of ambition ; he had the vanity to be pleased
the applause of the good and virtuous, and he had the


ons


it gave him. He was neither inca-


ambition to b
the con ..deratiwhich0 sions of duty and conscience; the duty w he
wed to that H


a ions superior both to his vanity and his ambition,
0 be serviceabl e to his country. But there were


a House and to his country of warning them of the


74
CHANGE OF MINISTRY.




76 CHANGE OF MINISTRY.
[July 9:


danger which he saw approaching, and the conscience of re_t)
fleeting that he had discharged his obligations with fidelity
and firmness ; and that if his country was to be ruined by a
renewal of that system which it had been the labour of years
to demolish, he had at least the consolation of reflecting, that
it was not owing to, him. Moved by these considerations he
had, though in circumstances, in point of fortune, by no means
enviable, relinquished the pomp, the profits, and the patron-
age of office; he had left all this, which undoubtedly he could
not cease to regret, more perhaps, for the sake of others than of
himself; but these were not the dearest of the sacrifices which
he had made; he had had the misfortune to lose for a time the
friends that were dearest to him upon earth, the men of all
others whom he loved and revered, because they were men of
all others whom he conceived to have the purest hearts, and
the most upright intentions. They were lost only for a time,
he said, because he was convinced that the professions which
had been made to them, and the delusions which had been held
out, though they had imposed upon them now, could not long
deceive them ; their sagacity would at last penetrate through the
disguise ofthose by whom this country was now to be governed,
and they would come over to his way of thinking, perhaps,
alter giving a sanction by their names to an administra-
tion that would more fatally undo the country than any that
ever was formed, or suffered to exist in this laud. He must
content himself for the present with the conviction of his hav-
ing acted right, and with the determination of continuing to
do his duty, and to watch as a member of that House the
measures of that ministry which he must, and always should
distrust. From the experience that he had had, he might be
dispirited, yet being his duty, he would not shrink from it;
and he bad this confidence, that though this new system might'
go on for days, weeks, months, or for years, it must, like the
last, crumble into atoms, as all administrations and systems
must do, which were not founded in publicity, in virtue, and
in honour.


Mr. Fox was followed by General Conway, who, after lamenting
the fatal event that had deprived the country of the benefit of the
splendid abilities of his right honourable friend, at a time when
their value and consequence were beginning to be felt, observed,
that he could not, however, concur in opinion with him,—that
there was such a disagreement in the cabinet as to justify him in
withdrawing himself from it. When eleven ministers were assem-
bled in council, it was impossible but that some shades of difference
in opinion should exist ; but he denied that any of the fundamental
principles, upon which that administration had been formed, by


1782.] CHANGE 01'
MINISTRY. 77


the virtuous and incomparable person, now no more, had been in
any


degree departed from. To shcw that this was the case, it
L.,would be proper that he should state what were the principles on


which they did set out. First
Y set


then, it was the principle on which
they out " That they should oiler to America unlimited, un-'conditional independence, as the basis of a negociation for peace."
The House would give him credit for saying, that lie had for yearsheld it as his opinion, that this was the thing to which we were ap-


chin but, that he had always declared it to be a great.evilproa g ,
approaching, and that whenever it did come, it would come as an
evil. He was now brought to feel the necessity of granting this
independence, and this was the first great principle on which the
present administration had come into power, and had begun to act.
Had this principle been abandoned? He conceived not, and that
the noble person who was now first lord of the treasury did not
differ about this principle. There might be some difference about
the means by which the object was to be obtained. It was a dif-
ference. which however was very immaterial. The second prin-
ciple was, "that they should establish a system of economy in
every department of government; and that they should adopt the
spirit, and carry into execution the provisions.of the bill of reform
introduced into that House by Mr. Burke, and which was now ready
for the crown to . pass." Was this principle abandoned, or had
there been any symptons whatever of there being a design to de-
part from it ? The next principle was, that " they would annihilate
every kind of influence over any part of the legislature." This also
was a principle which he assured the House the cabinet was seri-
ously inclined to carry into execution, and lie knew of no division
whatever about it. Another principle was, : "that they should con-
tinue to the kingdom of Ireland, and secure to it the freedom as
now settled by parliament ; and to do this in the most unequivocal
and decisive way." In all these principles, therefore, he conceived
that there was no deviation, and no cause either of apprehension
or of jealously ; and he was determined to continue in his place so
long as these principles were adhered to. These were the great
principles upon which the administration was formed; the House
could already pronounce how faithfully three of them had been ad-
:: sieprtieoeds oatioles;omoahsfetrisito the other, which related to America, time would
convince them, that the cabinet were as determined to adhere to it


: his part, lie thus proclaimed these to be his
1:crituoci,pdeleeipisiao;


rd


hitherto, he had every reason to say, they were the prin-


pronounced


ca it infamous


; but if ever it should be resolved in coun-
cil to from any one of them, he would rest satisfied to be


the mos n of men, if he should continue to
I
talon. For


with. those men who should enter into such a reso-


measuresonly,his


part he never would take a part in a scramble or
quarrel for places, pensions, or for power ; he did not care who werettthitrree
e rs of the cabinet, nor who enjoyed power, provided


the principles ,
which he had stated as . the fundamental points of


administration, were strictly adhered to: be looked to
and not to men. He lamented as much as any man


of the noble Marquis, which had occasioned the late di-




78 CHANGE OP MINISTRY. [July 9.
vision; but he saw no ground for apprehension that the successor
who had been given to him, -4 not steadily pursue the true in:
terests of his country ; that he would not strictly adhere to the great
leading principle relative to America, which he had stated to theHouse : the noble lord in question was not satisfied with bringing
himself to think favourably of American independence, to which
the change of affairs had made him a convert; he went farther, and
he had presuaded the king to think favourably of it also. He there.
fore was at a loss to discover the essential ground of difference in
the cabinet, and the cause of that separation, and the loss of the
assistance of his right honourable friend, which no one could
snore sincerely lament than he did.


Mr. Fox expressed his hope that the House would excuse
him, if he should rise a second time, to exculpate himself
from so heavy a charge as that of having quitted the service
of the public without cause, mid ascribed a conduct or inten-
tion to the present cabinet which they had a right to disclaim.
It seemed to have been insinuated by the right honourable
general that disappointment in a contest for power, or for
place, had been the true cause of his retreat from the present
administration ; but he was happy to have it in his power to
answer this charge effectually, by assuring the House, that he
had in a full cabinet council, expressly declared, that if such
and such a measure should be adopted, he must necessarily re-
sign his employment : this declaration he had made before the
death of the noble marquis ; if he did not actually resign
before that melancholy event took place, it was because he
would not accelerate it, or embitter the last moments of a
venerable friend, by taking a step, which he knew would give
him the greatest uneasiness:, but to prove that the probability
of the death of that great and good man had no influence
whatever upon him in his resolution to resign, he said, that
when there was every hope given by the faculty, that the noble


`marquis was likely to recover, he bad on the very day
these glad but delusive tidings had been brought to the cabinet,
positively declared that be must retire, if such a particular
measure should be adopted. He was out-voted in the council,
and that measure was adopted. He appealed to the right
honourable general for the truth of this, and said, that as he
looked upon that measure to be to the last degree dangerous to
this country, he owed it to himself and to his country not
to remain any longer in a situation in which he could not
continue to act, without renouncing his own principles, or
betraying his trust with •the public. He stood, as he had said,
in a delicate situation;- it had been often said, that while he
himself and some other men should continue in office, it would
be looked upon as a pledge that nothing was going forward
that could be injurious to the public interest: must he not


CHANGE OF MINISTRY.
17823


refore deceive those who should look upon his continuancethe1 office as such a pledge, if he should consent to retain his
situation, while measures were pursuing which he thought
hialy injurious to the public interest? All that was great, all
that was good in the kingdom, had countenanced his retreat ;
his noble friend (Lord John Cavendish) had resigned his em-
ployment. ; and the public would be naturally led to presume,
that when such a character quitted the cabinet, no man of
character ought to remain in it. If the higher sense of duty
had not compelled him to resign, he had many very poweful
inducements to keep him in the cabinet : he would not say
that he was such a stoic as to wish rather to be neglected than
courted ; to prefer poverty to riches, inconvenience to case, and
obscurity to splendour and power ; but when power, emolu-
ment, celebrity, and ease, were to be acquired by a base de-
sertion of principle, an honest man could not hesitate a mo-
ment what line of conduct he should pursue. But it was said
that he differed only upon shades; perhaps to Isis right honour-
able friend the difference, which to others appeared of the
greatest magnitude, might appear only as a shade ; but to him
this difference seemed of that consequence, as to be decisive
of this great question, Whether we shall have peace or war ?
And it was not a little strange that the right honourable gen-
tleman, by whose vote in the cabinet the question was decided,
should have had so little penetration as not to discover, that
the fate of the empire, and not a little shade of difference, de-
petaled upon his vote. But it was the fate of his right honour-
able friend to be the last to discover those things which struck
ereileytr


naitn.aio alive; and experience ought to have sharpened his
penetration.


In the- year 1766, when his right honourable friend had
voted for the repeal of the stamp-act, he never dreamt that
the idea of taxing America would revive; he had then the
security of almost every man in the present cabinet; the pre-
sent Lord Shelburne was then secretary of state; the then
chancellor had signed a strong protest against taxing
America the Duke of Grafton was at the head of the trea-
sury: the characters of all those ministers were as pledges
that the system of taxing America was at an end ; but so
greatly had his right honourable friend been deceived, that
in six months after the Marquis of Rockingham went out ofphleiaecne,vitshibelright




honourable general found himself a part of
an athdemni,nitshtrealt.i ociiii determined to tax America ; then, and not
till
h visible to every other person long before ; and thus had


by his unsuspecting confidence, and his not regarding.
shades of difference, contributed in a most essential degree to.


F
79




8o CHANGE OF MINISTRY. [July 9.
the establishment of that system which in the end had ruined
or well-nigh ruined the country. The right honourable ge:
neral had too much magnanimity of character, too much gee
nerosity of mind, and too much complaisance to be is


,cor utphui:
Ions in his enquiries about the niceties and minutiaeof
the measures of those men with whom he acted.
magnanimity and benevolence he, for his own part, confessed
himself unequal : he could not repose confidence without in-
vestigating character; and he looked to principles before he
trusted to words. Were he to look back to the series of
events and causes that had so progressively brought this coma-
try to its present state, he should trace the political liberality
of the right honourable gentleman as the cause of almost all
the misfortunes that had been brought upon the country; so
that if he were to be asked who was the person who of all
others had contributed the most to the misfortune of the
American war? he should be tempted to say, the right ho-
nourable general ; and if again he should be asked, who was
the man with the most upright intentions, and who bad pur- 1


measures with the most disinterested integrity ? he should
say with much pleasure, the right honourable general. And
all this happened, because he did not attend to those shades
of difference which he thought immaterial, and which he said
his understanding could not reach ! He said the right ho-
nourable gentleman did now, what he did sixteen years ago
with the best intentions; lie joined the same men without
thinking it necessary to examine their hearts; and he would,
therefore, as he had before, quit them when he had disco-
vered their rank intentions against their country. He said he
had reason to believe that the right honourable gentleman
might on this day differ in opinion, but he hardly believed
they would have differed about facts; the right honourable
gentleman had read the creed of the cabinet ; he could only
say upon this, that he had heard this creed from him for the
first time. He never heard it in the cabinet from the Earl
of Shelburne; and he would just take the liberty of going so
far as to say, that it was upon this very circumstance that the
great difference of sentiment had occurred. That which the
right honourable general had called shades of difference,
which his. understanding could not reach, were differences
about points, upon which, in his honest opinion, the salva-
tion, or the ruin of this country depended. They were, in a
most peculiar manner, no less than upon the very principle
which he had just mentioned, the independence of America.
It was said by the right honourable general, that it was die
opinion of the cabinet to give full, unconditional, and unlimit-
ed independence to America. He could not take upon him to


178.7-.1 CHANGE OF MINISTRY. 81


what was now the opinion of the cabinet, but. be could
the House that it Was not the opinion of the cabinet


hen he had made the determination to resign. But if it was
rirsis):,t,i ibitt opinion of the cabinet, he congratulated his country
on the consequences of his resignation ; for he had been able
to do more towards the deliverance of his country, by resign-


than he was able to effect with all the force of
lien he remained in. It spewed him that - it was


japi:Oggssullitbnisleerpiftoes whehim, in the present moment, to serve his count
more in that House than in any other place. He was not to


,ry


be reasoned out of his senses by his right honourable friend ;
for if it was now the intention of the cabinet, as he said, to
grant independence to America, it was an intention very
lately adopted : he had never before .seen the papers from
which his right honourable friend had stated his four great
principles; and therefore he could not be answerable for their
contents ; but this much he could assure the House, that he
differed from the cabinet on this subject, because he found
the majority of them averse to that idea of unconditional in-
dependence to America, which he conceived it to be necessary
to the .salvation of this country to have granted : if, since he
quitted his employment, his late colleagues had changed their
opinion, he rejoiced at the event ; and would feel himself sa-
tisfied, if the sacrifice he had made to his principles should
ultimately be serviceable to this country. The number of
eleven in a committee of council, he certainly thought too
great; and he was of opinion, that those ministers who hold
great responsible situations, should have more interest in the
cabinet, than those members of it who attended merely to
give counsel, but without bolding responsible situations.


He was also unhappy to say, that there were other most
material points in which he and others differed with the Earl
of Shelburne. That noble person was inclined to screen from
Jfietniodelyand punnment those delinquents who had destroyed
our possessions in the East, and involved us in all the cala-
mities which that House,had so honourably endeavoured to
remove. The right honourable general had said, that they
Were also inclined to the system of economy, and to the
reduction of the influence of the crown, and particularly


to the objects of Mr. Burke's bill. Did he not know,
and did not all men know, who had heard the noble person's
loud and specious speeches in Parliament, that he professed to
treat that bill with the utmost contempt, and called it triflingand insignificant? It was an :Mina, a pigmy, in comparison
Would




the pr mites of that noble lord, but he was convinced it
the


be a giant in comparison of his performances. It was
talent of that noble lord to promise, and he had always
"L.




8 2 CHANGE OF MINISTRY. Pune


promised much more than the noble marquis, Who Nuvatst:eli,n:
no more ; the noble marquis promised little, because he r
giously performed every promise that he made. B
was an extravagance and profusion in the manner in which
the other noble person made his promises, and ,11, magnani,
mitt'


in the manner in which he broke them.
And this brought him to state another reason for his re-


tiring; and that was the appointment of the Earl of Shelburne
to the office of first lord of the treasury : the patronage of
-that place was undoubtedly great; and whoever filled it must
have power; much more power than any other member of the
cabinet. Now, it was but just and fair, that those who went
into office, upon certain public principles, should be satisfied
that none were introduced into the cabinet, who were hostile
to those principles; and they either should have a right to re-
tire, or to have a voice in the appointment of all persons who
should be nominated to fill those vacancies that might hap-
pen : when that power was taken from them, their power
was at an end ; and if the king had a right to nominate his
ministers, his counsellors had a right to retire, whenever they
thought fit : privilege in the one case was opposed to prero-
gative in the other : but there was no question of right in the
business; the right was not to be disputed on either side; but
the moment he was called upon for reasons for having quitted
his employment, that moment it was pronounced to be a mat-
ter in which expediency, not right, was involved ; to be ac-
cused in this case, amounted to a justification of the principle;
a minister was to exercise his right to retire, whenever it
should appear to him that he ought to do it. He had been
since told, that his objections might have been removed,
without any separation or division in the cabinet ; this he
might have thought probable, if those persons, upon whom
he could most depend, had remained in the council after him;
but when he found they also had retired, then he confessed
that the very steps taken to convince him, that his objections
might have been removed without a division, had tended only
to alarm him more. One would naturally imagine, in an ad-
ministration formed on the principles of the men distinguished.
by the name of the Rockinghams, that upon the decease ol
that great man, whose virtues, whose nobleness of thinkIng,
and whose firm integrity bound them together, the man wbuld
be sought and appointed to succeed him, who most resembled
him in character, in influence, in popularity— such at least
were his ideas—and the eves of all men were naturally tiu•ned
„to the Duke of Portland. Instead of that noble person, how-
ever, the Earl of Shelburne was selected, of whom, if I re
meant to describe the character, he could not truly say that


/782.] CHANGE OF marisTri.y. 83


resemblance to his predecessor ; perhaps the ex-
lalce btlVel


any
r verse come nearer to the picture. Perhaps it


might be asked, why, thinking as lie did of the Earl of Shel-
burne, he came with him into office at all ? To this he must
answer, that he had strong objections to it, and both with
respect to him, and to another noble person, (the Lord Chan-
cellor,) the only thing that could make him submit to associate
with them in office, was the satisfactory pledge which he bad
for the integrity of the administration, of which he made a
part, in the noble marquis being at the head of it.


The country had now an administration, which could not
he that popular administration to which his honourable friend
had alluded; it was now the administration of a man who
could not think of reformation with temper, however loudly
he might speak about it ; a man who would declare, that the
influence of the crown ought to be diminished, but who
would, at the same time, say, that the king had a right to use
his negative in passing laws, and would threaten with the ex-
ercise of that negative all those who should attempt to move
any bills that went to retrenchment. Such was the man now
at the head of the Treasury ; the principles of the late mini-
stry were now in the cabinet; and the next thing he should
look for, would be to see the late ministers themselves again
in office. But perhaps he would be said to be too apprehen-
sive, and that his suspicions were vague; probably they were
so: it would, however, be acknowledged to him, that think-
ing conscientiously that he saw such danger, it was fit for him
to come forward and to warn his country in dine. He did so.
He and a few friends retired to a strong hold, into which he
doubted not to see all .his old friends and companions come
one after another, some sooner and some later in the day, but
all lamenting that they did not come with him.


General Conway said he took all the strictures on his abilities
and conduct, such as they were, which came from the honourable
gentleman in good part. He re gretted the loss of the assistance
and countenance of his late friends with great sincerity. But their
resignation on this occasion he could not help censuring as inimi-
cal to the prosperity of those measures in which this country was
at Present so fatally and deeply engaged. The honourable gen-
tleman, he said, was incapable of misunderstanding or misrepre-
senting what fell from him, yet certainly lie had stated fairly anddistinctly the great and leading objects for the accomplishment of
which the administration under the late Marquis of Rockingham
was formed. And these objects, he affirmed, were still the avowed
and invariable objects of the present. He might be mistaken, or
mi


sled, or deceived, as the best and wisest of men often were.But he was sure his intentions were honourable, as they had al-
G 2




Pane 9,84 CHANGE OP MINISTRY. 1782.] CHANGE OF MINISTRY.


ways been undisguised. His head, or his judgment might err, as
he was sensible of its weakness in a thousand instances ; but he
would boldly, publicly, and on all occasions, answer for his heart.
He might not have expressed himself so clearly, accurately, or
guardedly, perhaps, but he was not conscious of qualifying, much
less of altering any of his well-known sentiments on these topics.
That independence to the thirteen states of North America was to
be the basis of all our negotiations with them : that they were to
be treated as independent in the very mode of carrying on these
negotiations that a large and substantial reform in every branch
of the public expenditure ; and that the undue influence-of the
crown in this House was to be circumscribed—were certainly the
ground-work or public principles on which the new arrangement,
as well as the preceding one, was avowedly established. It was
on this conviction, and this alone, he pledged himself to give it all
the support and assistance he could. The moment the least symp.
toni of departing from these struck him, he would undosubtedly
follow his honourable friend's example. He would not think his
honour or his conscience safe in deviating from this broad and
beaten ground of polities in the least. He was obliged to the ho.
nourable gentleman for his kind and very flattering opinion ; but
he did not think himself altogether liable to the censure implied
in the compliment, so handsomely paid him. He was for public
measures, not men. While the former were pure, and meant for
the public advantage, it was indifferent to him who had the power.
He had no object but one. He trusted his actions were guided
solely and always by the public good: and whoever accorded with
him in facilitating this great end, was entitled, in his opinion, by
every possible claim to his countenance. For the merits of the
late first lord of the Treasury he had the most serious esteem.
His per oval and social qualities and accomplishments were as va-
luable rid exemplary as they were uniform and rare. But why
degrade the living, by an ill-timed compliment to the dead? The
Earl of Shelburne was not the less respectable because his prede-
cessor was a man of uncommon worth. No ; there was an instance
of merit in the Earl of Shelburne that it was but justice to mention
to the House. His lordship, so far from renewing the old ex-
ploded politics, had been able, as he had said, to convince his
royal master, that a declaration of American independence was,
from the situation of the country, and the necessity of the case,
the wisest and most expedient measure that government from the
pressure of present circumstances could possibly adopt. This he
observed was a satisfactory reason to his mind that nothing less
than :.tich a measure in its utmost latitude was certainly meant by
the cabinet. And while he had this confidence in the integrity
and candour of ministry, sorry as he was to differ from his ho-
nourable friend, the duty he owed to his country, to his king, nod
to his constituents, made it impossible for him to do otherwise.
His honourable friend had alluded to the year 1766; but in men-
tioning the names of the cabinet ministers of that period, he had
forgot that of the Earl of Chatham;


• when he acquainted that great
minister with his intention of resigning, he had dissuaded him fro"'


purpose, by saying, that if the well-wishers to their country
leis retire, it would make it absolutely necessary for ministry to
*ply to those very persons for support, who had been driven out


bY Fox said, a few things had just fallen from the right
honourable gentleman, which he could not pass unnoticed.
To the political creed which had been read before the House,
with so much solemnity, he was no party. It was, as he bad
said, a paper he had never till then either seen or heard.
The subject of it was certainly not unknown to him, though
the terms in general were. This was a system digested by
himself, and now held out to the public as adopted by his
majesty's council. It was now a week since he had the ho-
nour to be one of the number. A general conversion might
have been lately wrought on them. They were not, he as-
serted, agreed on any such system while he knew them. To
bring them unanimously to some such specific and decisive
ppoint, he had laboured ardently and assiduously, both indi-
vidually and collectively considered, but all to no purpose.
What was an honest man to do, who found himself situated
as he was? He had avowed principles in this place to his
friends, to his constituents, to the nation at large, with which
he deemed their existence, as a great and a respectable state,
inseparable. Was it ever conceived or expected, that ha
could continue in a responsible department of state, and be
answerable in his place to this House, for those that were
foreign to his heart, and in his opinion hostile to the best in-
terests of the empire? He trusted, the public, and all who
knew his habits of thinking and acting, hind a better opinion
both of his understanding and his heart. It was in fact a con-
duct to which he was not equal. His right honourable friend
was indifferent who were the men, while the measures were
unquestionably


random,
ti r, l good. What was this but trusting every thingl


and depending on events to justify a manifest
treachery to the cause we have espoused. The right honour-
able gentleman was welcome in this, as in every other case, to
Judge for himself, but he should not judge for him. He
would relinquish his own judgment, especially in matters
which he had so often and carefully revolved in his mind, to




anv ,
he had not the fullest and most unbounded con-


Circumstanced. was notin his power, as things were at presentle person presiding at the treasury-board
was not of a description to command that faith, which in
such a predicament was wanted, was indispensable. Thisbreach ,


on a public,. not on a personal or narrow ground.
s mind might see things on a less broad and comprehen.


G 3




86 CHANGE OF MINISTRY. [June


sive scale than the right honourable gentleman, but he was
answerable only for his own feelings and convictions. These
might incline him to be less credulous, and fill him with more
jealousies than his right honourable friend was liable to enter-
tain. But he did not pretend either to censure or defend the
constitution of his mind. It was enough for him that his con-
science did not upbraid him with acting dishonourably or dis-
ingenuously. But he would say this must have been the case,
had he not done what he did. He was impelled to take this
step by every consideration that could operate on the heart and
feelings of an honest man. The right honourable gentleman
might, but he could not regard, without emotion or concern,
who took the lead in his majesty's councils. He deemed it
a great and national object, and consequently of infinite mo-
ment to every individual, but much more to a member of
parliament; and still more so to one of his majesty's cabinet
ministers. Their honour, their duty, and every thing clear
to them was at stake. What ! had he and his friends labour-
ed so long and assiduously to destroy a system, which it was
now meanly, but abortively, attempted to make them acces-
sary in reviving? and must not they see the trick that was
meant to be played on them without blame? Were they cen-
surable for detecting an artifice with which the strength and
glory of Great Britain was most immediately connected? Why
were not the right honourable gentleman and his worthy co-
adjutors satisfied of their own integrity, in keeping their
places, without blaming those who relinquish them ? Was
not their eagerness for an explanation a certain indication
that all was not right with them, even in their own opinion?
He and his friends had nothing to dread from the severest
scrutiny. Tbey had acted right, because they had acted from
fidelity to their engagements with the public, whom they
never had, and never would betray ; whose cause or interest
they preferred to every thing, and for which they had now
sacrificed whatever was most flattering to most minds. 11e
would not pay his majesty so-poor a compliment as the right
honourable gentleman certainly did, by asserting, that the
Earl of Shelburne had convinced or persuaded his majesty,
that the independence of America was now a measure that
must be adopted. It was from this House, it was from the
people at large, it was from the royal observation on the daily
occurrences of things, that any such generous and princely
ideas were indulged in the royal breast. He therefore deemed
it, if not unfair, at least a poor compliment to this House, and
to the public, to attribute that to the address of an individual
which certainly originated in the sentiments and resolutions')
so unanimously and boldly avowed by themselves. T1101413


12


1782-] CHANGE OF MINISTRY. 8


thee were altogether out of the question, it was hardly treating
his'colleagues in office with due respect, to give Lord Shel-
bo •ne the sole merit of what surely belonged to them as much


to him. Indeed, it' any individual had more merit than
another, in a business so much and jointly the object of all, it
was no doubt the right honourable gentleman himself. What
was the purport of the motion he brought into this House,
Ind by which the late administration was certainly annihilated?
If it had any meaning, it went to the full and unconditional
independence of North America. He would :not think so dis-
respectfully of his royal master, whose service he had so lately
resigned, as once to suppose he could have ,a different idea
from his people, on a subject so dear to their hearts, and es-
sential to their interests. He knew the justice, the discern-
ment, the gentleness, and the mercy of the royal character
better than to suppose he could dissent from the general opi-.
nion of the nation, on a point concerning which their senti-
ments had been delivered in so decided a mariner. But why
was not he, why was not the right honourable gentleman
himself brought fbrward, as using all their influence to carry
a point which seemed a 'favourite one with them all? Was it
not that the noble lord in question was alone suspected of
having less friendly ideas on this topic, than any of his nume-
rous colleagues in office ? He did not wish to bear hard on the
right honourable gentleman, whom he had long regarded with
sentiments of the hinlmst respect. But now that he had been
somewhat in voluntarily put on his own defence it was natural,
it was necessary in his case to state his conduct ashe had
stated it. A variety of things were against him. It was none
of the least that he did not think himself at liberty to speak


h, he had accustomed himself to do on
other occasions. Official details would in this case be deemed
both tedious and improper. And yet without a very circum-
tssatitiflelltei.,:tollY.c.glaeilt:;


i


,fuslul: ach as he did not think it became him at this


w


ise bave been.le was sensible his defence would not be so
so complete, or so generally effective as it might other-


onLwhorihdd John Cavendish stated his reasons for quitting the post ofCha
ncellor of the Exchequer, which, he said, were briefly, thathearms. a different system was meant to be pursued, than the one


the change of ministry was formed, and likewise find-


1


,ng that it was impossible by any presence of his to prevent it, lie
'a,(1.' determined to withdraw himself, that he might not divide the


n:"ef, and render it a scene of confusion, as it was in. the time of'ate ministry ; for he always should be of opinion, that a eabi-
"ut unanimous in itself, although their measures might not be so


G 4




88 CHANGE OF MINISTRY. [Arne 9.


good as could be wished, was much better for the country than a
cabinet that was divided. He was of the same opinion as Mr. Pox
that he could be of infinitely more service to his country by'
being out of office, than by'being in ; for it appeared that measure's
would be consented to in his absence, that no argument he coald
make use of when present would effect.—Mr. Burke supported I nIr.
Fox. On his rising there was an uncommon confusion- at the bar.
He directed his eye to that quarter, and with considerable emotion
said, he was peculiarly circumstanced from the delicacy which he
had for one part of the House, while he felt nothing but the most
sovereign contempt for the other. This to him appeared an hour,
though a late one, of the greatest consequence. He was called
by a variety of circumstances to vindicate his character and prin-
ciples to the public. Those, who by the present unaccountable
tumult seemed dissatisfied with his private character, knew where
to find him. But he was not to be intimidated by these little un-
manly and dirty artifices, from coming forward and accounting,
with much simplicity and truth, for his short stewardship, to that
public, whose servant he had ever been. About the question re-
lating to the pension meant for an honourable gentleman, he had
but little to say. With respect to this particular pensioner, he
knew that the noble marquis thought himself bound for it, as he
had, in the year 1766, left out the honourable colonel by mistake,
from a list of promotions. Among all the encomiums made on the
character of the noble marquis lately deceased, this was one, that
he le fl his dearest and best friends with the simple reward of his
own invaluable intimacy. This singular test of their sincerity he
asked while alive, add it was a tax he left on their regard for his
memory when dead. He, for his own part, had not been without-
his share of the one, and he would soon convince the world, he was
not unequal to the other. Well might he be excused for mingling
his tears with those of all descriptions and ranks of men, for the
inestimable loss of this most excellent and most virtuous character!
He was gone, he said, to that tribunal, where we all must go and
render an account of our transactions, and he trusted, that no
soul ever went with a greater certainty of its actions being ap-
proved. On the ,late change of ministry, the people, he said,
looked up to the Marquis of Rockingham as the only person who
must be at the head of affairs, as the clearness of his head, and
the purity of his heart, made him universally beloved. It was to
him that the public looked for every thing ; they knew govern-
ment was safe in his hands, as he would not lend his name to,any
thing that was detrimental to his country. But as fate had so
ordained it, as to take that great and virtuous statesman from us,
the first step his maj,:sty's ministers should have done, was to seek
out some person the most like him in sentiment and integrity;
but unfortunately for the country, it had turned out just the re-
verse ; they had pitched on a man, of' all others, the most unlike
to him. It was proposed, he said, to have appointed the Duke
of Portland in the room of the noble marquis, as he was a person
whose abilities and integrity had gained him the love of the pecfr


/782.] CHANGE OF MINISTRY. 89


here, and the esteem and veneration of the people of Ireland.
Pie-fie was the person whose great talents and connections would havegiven weight to his majesty's councils, and hoen a means of bring,
rng about that object so much wished for, a general, lasting, and
honourable peace ; but from the turn things had taken, he was
fearful that all the good that had been effected by displacing the
late ministry, who so n igh wrought the ruin of their country, would
be frustrated ; and if it should cause a twenty years' siege, as his
honourable friend had talked of, to displace these men, he was of
opinion that few persons would have . courage to undertake it.
The noble marquis, he said, had uniformly, through life, enter-
tained one opinion ; but that was not the case with the noble earl
that was to succeed him. He was a. man that he could by no
means confide - in, and he called heaven and earth to witness, so
help him God! that he verily believed the present ministry would
be fifty times worse than that of the noble lord, who lately had
been reprobated and removed. He begged leave to make a few
remarks upon what he could not help considering as very extra-
ordinary doctrine, which a right honourable general had been
pleased to lay down under the idea of candour ; and I hope, said
Mr. Burke, it will not be considered to be impertinent, as it seems
to glance at impropriety, or (if the House pleases) a want of can-
dour in me and in my friends. Candour, if I understand the true
meaning of the word, is an impartial view of whatever the mind
contemplates ; let us apply this definition to the right honourable
general's apology for his conduct. He tells you, that he has seen
nothing improper hi the demeanour of Lord Shelburne under the
Rockingham administration ; he will therefore try him as a pre-
mier. Is this an impartial view ? No, no —surely it is not. To
be candid, we must take to mind, the whole of that nobleman's
politics ever since he had affected to be a statesman. In the late
premiership he was controuled. In former administrations, when
he could indulge his opinions, he did indulge them : and now that
he is minister, lie will give scope to them with a vengeance. Mr.
Burke trusted some credit would. be given him on the present
sent office. His domestic sensibility had never been doubted. I-le
had a pretty large family and but little fortune. He liked his pre-


The House and all its appendage* to a man of his
taste, could not be disagreeable. All this -he relinquished not,


of
tachlalepat lIblIiloseuse




might well conceive, without regret ; for the welfare
bdisid tfiaai ininvillsly Was very dear to itim. No man could conceive him


were, to sacrifice


then,


our thousand pounds per an nothing? for g 2 No;
°lie


c‘owldnoatftf


were


circumstances as his certainly


or that country and that public whose property he
Was,, and to whom lie was always ready to surrender whatever he
mosti vgalued in life. He had been long surfeited with opposition.Those who
hers and temper,


familiar with his habits of living, with his man-


be


cause his h art would not call him petulant or factious. What;
induce him to leave an administration to the forma-


of which his humble endeavours had somewhat contributed?
lie protested, but the sincerest regard for a public, in the


so t


, ervice of which lie wished to live and die. He was not satisfied,
heart would not let him confide where his duty and




P'
ri
sl
SE


bi


90 CHANGE OF MINISTRY. [June 9,
situation made it necessary that he should. The right


'


bonourahn,
general's feelings were in this respect exceedingly convenient.
He took every man by his looks; this might be very good-natured
but it was not very wise. He had read when young, of a wolf
which was mistook by a simple shepherdess, because dressed like
her grandmother, for• one quite as gentle and tame as she was:
But the first opportunity undeceived the poor girl. Take care
that none of you render yourselves obnoxious to a similar dill-
cule. But, perhaps his worthy friend might despise this lesson,
because it was drawn from a little book. He would therefore
touch upon an idea borrowed from a book of more authority. He
would ask the gentleman, whether if he had lived in the time of
the immortal Cicero, he would have taken Cataline upon trial,
for his colleague in the consulship, after he had heard his guilt
so clearly demonstrated by that great orator? Would he be co-
partner with Borgia in his schemes, after he had read of his ac-
cursed principles in Machiavel ? He could answer for him, he
knew he would not. Why, then, did he adhere to the present man?
He meant no offence, but he would speak an honest mind. If
Lord Shelburne was not a Cataline, or a Borgia, in morals, it
must not be ascribed to any thing but his understanding.
William Pitt said, he should think himself criminal if he were not
to speak on the present subject, as, in his opinion, it was of the
most serious consequence to the nation. The late right honour-
able secretary (Mr. Fox ), was looked up to by the people as the
ostensible man in that House, and therefore was to be considered
as public property ; as such, he should consider him, and, there-
fore, had a right to question him on his conduct, in resigning an
important station, when the nature of aflizirs demanded the assist-
ance of his great abilities. The right honourable gentleman had
declared, that it was to prevent dissections in the cabinet that
he had retired, as he found there was a material difference on
some grand political questions. He believed the right honourable
secretary, on account of his having solemnly declared it, but had
he not, he should have attributed the resignation to a baulk in
struggling for power. It was, in his opinion, a dislike to men,
and not to measures ; and there appeared to him to be something
personal in the business, for if' the right honourable gentleman had
such a dislike to the political sentiments of Lord Shelburne,. l'isSW.
came he to accept of him as a colleague ? And if it was only-a•
suspicion that Lord Shelburne was averse to the measures the
right honourable gentleman wished to adopt, he should have called
a cabinet council, and have been certain of it. before he had taken
such a hasty step as he had done. The right honourable gent/e-
man had said, that quite a different system was going to be pur-
sued to what was the ground on which the present ministry came
in ; he could assure him, that he had no such suspicions, for if he
had, no man would be more averse to supporting them than he
would ; but if he should be called upon to act in any capacity
under the present administration, whatever the office might be,
he should think it his duty cheerfully to lend his hand to forward
the springs of government, and give them every assistance in hip


CHANGE Or MINISTRY. 91
82.3


He professed himself a determined enemy to the late
;nous system of affairs, and pledged himself, that whenever he
bind see things going on wrong, he would first endeavour to
t them right, and II he was not successful, then resign, but not
fore.


Fox rose to explain, that so far from its being a strug-
e for power, he had absolutely determined upon resigning


previ
ous to the death of the marquis, and had communicated


those sentiments to a noble duke ; he had likewise called
together


a council, to take their sense upon the subject, and
IT C


had well weighed the matter before he put it in execution;
for he was aware, that as the public eye was upon him, they
would look up to him, and expect good and sufficient grounds
for his conduct; he trusted it was in his power to give them
these grounds; and no man would blame him for quitting a?.)
council in which he must have been a mere puppet, for he
could as well tell how every measure would be carried the
moment he knew the mover, as lie could formerly tell how
gentlemen would vote on grand political questions in that
House. Was such a cabinet a fit one for him to remain in ?
Could he submit to be responsible for-measures of which he
disapproved, and lend his name to a system in which lie had
no share? With respect to the fear of letting in the old ad-
ministration, there was none, he said, for that House would
not suffer it; the people of England would not suffer it; in-
deed no man, he believed, would attempt it. The House,
lie hoped, would do him the justice to think, that it must be
some very great, some- very material differences in politics
that could make hint give up the place he had the honour
to fill, a place which was not only lucrative, but powerful:


This conversation, which continued to a late hour in the night,
was closed by Mr. Lee, the solicitor general. He said lie held
it to be the duty of every honest man to resign his office the
moment he found public measures were carrying on of which he
c ould not approve. The appointment of a minister unqualified
for his situation, was undoubtedly a measure of that kind. He
I ad heard much of dissention, but he had not seen one person
step forward to say the Earl of Shelburne was a fit and proper
person for the high office he held. If there was any such person,lu


Pr inciple,


e9NVS;hoeuilldt jooliinear him. The noble earl to be sure possessed splen-did talents, had some friends, and was now in a way to make more.
jb


oatlided > .the reputed characteristics of the nobleman just exalted


, utatitehe.prni.niinister of this country should have other endowments.


and an unsuspected integrity. Were these, he de-
Principal department of the state ? To put him at the head


to a sound head a purity of mind, a steadiness of


4Irs in this plain and open-hearted Country, was to put him




92 ADDRESS ON THE KING'S SPEECH. [Dee• s.
out of his element. The people of England were incapable oefinesse, and not fond of submitting to the government of those
who practised it. The Treasury too required a sober, honest, in-
dustrious, steady commissioner at its head. It was not an Osten.
tatious affectation of uniting the man of science and the fine gen.
tleman ; the technical jargon of arts and the gibberish of courts.
the pedantry of scholastic nostrums, and the abstruse theorems of
mechanism, that would create respect and consequence in that
high office. Who knows not, said he, how easily a head filled with
such materials may be turned upside down? He concluded with
some observations on the youth and inexperience of the new
Chancellor of the Exchequer, to whose extraordinary abilities.he
nevertheless paid the highest compliments. He said there was
an obvious intention of trifling with the people, by bringing for,
ward, one of their favourites as a compensation for insulting
another ; but though the honourable gentleman would adorn any
scene in which his part was properly cast, yet he did not think the
confidence of the people would be much increased, by putting the
complicated business of our finances into the hands of a boy.


ADDRESS ON THE KING'S SPEECH AT THE OPENING OF THE
SESSION.


December 5.


`HE negotiations for a general peace were advancing so nearly
to a conclusion, that on the 2 3 d of November letters were


sent by the secretary of state to the lord mayor of London and
the governors of the bank, acquainting them, " For the inform-


The following is a List of the Shelburne Administration :
First Lord of the Treasury — Earl of Shelburne.
Chancellor of the Exchequer — Hon. William Pitt.
Principal Secretaries of State—Lord Grantham, Thos. Townshend, Esq.
Lord Chancellor — Lord Thurlow.
First Lord of the Admiralty—Lord Koppel. '
President of the Council — Lord Camden.
Lord Privy Seal— Duke of Grafton.
Master-General of the Ordnance —Duke of Richmond.
Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster —Lord Ashburton.
Secretary at War — Sir George Yonge.
Treasurer of the Navy — Henry Dundas, Esq. (afterwards Lord Melville).
Paymaster of the Forces — Colonel Barre.
Attorney-General —; Lloyd Kenyon, Esq. (afterwards Lord Kenyon).
Solicitor-General—John Lee, Esq.
Lord Lieutenant of Ireland — Earl Temple.
secretary to ditto — Hon. William Wyndham Grenville (afterwards L ora


Grenville).
1 0


1782


on t
:lisa,] :m


:chey


ADDRESS ON THE KING'S SPEECH. 93


tioll .nf
the public, and to prevent the mischief's arising from spe-


-
• l - funds '


• 1dons m t IL, n ,, tnat tne neeotiations carrying


were brought


on at Pariseada
uaht so far to a point, as to promise a decisive conclusion,


either or war, before h1e, for peace i i e f me t e meeting of parliament, whichaccount was to be prorogued to the 5th of December."


On n


day the session was opened by the following speech


Lords and Gentlemen ;
the close of the last session, I have employed my whole


from the throne :


time in that care and attention which the important and critical
co juncture of public affairs required of me. — I lost no time ingiving the necessary orders to prohibit the further prosecution of
offensive war upon the continent of North America. Adopting,
as my inclination will always lead me to do, with decision and
effect, whatever I' collect to be the sense of my parliament and
my people ; I have pointed all my views and measures, as well
in Europe as in North America, to an entire and cordial recon-
ciliation with those colonies. — Finding it indispensable to the
attainment of this object, I did not hesitate to go the full length
of the powers vested in me, and offered to declare them free and
independent states, by an article to be inserted in the treaty of
peace. Provisional articles are agreed upon, to take effect when-
ever terms of peace shall be finally settled with the court of
France.— In thus admitting their separation from the crown of
these kingdoms, I have sacrificed every consideration of my own
to the wishes and opinion of my people. I make it my humble
and earnest prayer to Almighty God, that Great Britain may not
feel the evils which might result from so great a dismemberment
of the empire; and, that America may be,


free from those cala-
mities, which have formerly proved in the mother country how
essential monarchy is to the enjoyment of constitutional liberty.—
Religion —language— interest — affections, may, and I hope will
yuto,eatitihprovei a bond of permanent union between the two countries :


neither attention nor disposition on my part shall be
— While I have carefully abstained from all offensive


o
_ perations against America, I have directed my whole force by
land and sea against the other




b
powers at war, with as much vigourpsa;ailiiittgshitInieig,lsalfivoe es tuation the'ibi of that force, at the commencement of the can-


having


seen


permit.


pride


trust that you feel the advantages rc..
of the great branches of our trade. You


with u and satisfaction the gallant defence ofntc:edgovernor and the garrison of Gibraltar ; and my fleet, aftereffe cted
tn.
.(:.:eot,


c
ombin the object of their destination, offering battle tom io


-ik:od force of France and Spain on their own coasts ; those
°I. y kingdoms have remaiaed at the same time perfectly secure,
'`ate, domestic tranquillity uninterrupted. This respectable:it, aiufhideii


ic


rl the


other


blessing


of


f


my


God, I attribute 'to the entire eonfi-
din__ s w i .ch


h
su
h


b
as


sists between me and my people, and to the rea-


de- Eral
Pir it in priv


ate


dheien been she win by ki ngmy subjects
to


in
stanmyd


fcity
orth


of
- the
in Lon-


scc. Some proofs have lately been given of public
men, which would do honour to any age, and any




jests of the public receipts and expenditure ; and above all, to the
state of the public debt. Notwithstanding the great increase of itdurina the war, it is to be hoped, that such regulations may still be


st
fi'shed, such savings made, and future loans so conducted, as


e
toiaibromote the means of its gradual redemption by a fixed course
of' payment. I must, with particular earnestness, distingtiish,
for your serious consideration, that part of the debt which consists
of navy, ordnance, and victualling bills : the enormous discount
upon some of these bills shews this mode of payment to be a most
ruinous expedient.— I have ordered the several estimates, made up
as correctly as the present practice would admit, to be laid before
you. I hope that such further corrections as may be necessary,
will be made before the next year. It is my desire, that you
should be apprised of every expence before it is incurred, as far
as the nature of each service can possibly admit. :Matters of ac-
counts can never be made too public.


" My Lords and Gentlemen ; The scarcity, and consequent high
;price of' corn, requires your instant interposition.—The great ex-
cess to which the crimes of theft and robbery have arisen, in many
instances accompanied. with personal violence, particularly in the
neighbourhood of this metropolis, has called of late for a strict and
severe execution of the laws. It were much to • he wished that
these crimes could be prevented in their infancy, by correcting
the vices become prevalent in a most alarming degree.—The libe-
ral principles adopted by you, concerning the rights and the com-
merce of Ireland, have done you the highest honour, and will, I
trust, ensure that harmony, which ought always to subsist between
the two kingdoms. I am persuaded, that a general increase of
commerce throughout the empire will prove the wisdom of your
measures with regard to that object. I would recommend to you
a revision of our whole trading system, upon the same compre-
hensiVe principles, with a view to its utmost possible extension. —
The regulation of a vast territory in Asia opens a large field for
your wisdom, prudence, and foresight. I trust that you will be
able to frame some fundamental laws, which may make their con-
nection with Great Britain a blessing to India ; and that you will
take ae therein proper measures to give all foreign nations, in matters
of foreign


tY, punctuality, and


pro-an
good


entire
order


and perfect


our
confidence


government.
in the


You pmayhe


r commerc


assured, that


e




depends upon me, shall be executed
bi


steadiness, which can alone preserve that part of my do-
minaiorieist,hoerfitilllieadvco.mme:


b


erce which arises from it. It is the fixed
object of my heart to make the general good, and the true spirit
of the constitution, the invariable rule of my conduct, and on alloccasions to advance


and reward merit in every profession. — To
ensure




of a government conducted on such prin-


ADDRESS ON THE KING'S SPEECH.
1782.3 95


aeoartment of the Mint, that the purity of the coin, of so much im-


imay
:4


n


ance to commerce, may be always adhered to ; that by render-
°e•


the difficulty of counterfeiting greater, the lives of numbers
be saved, and every needless expence in it suppressed.—I


lost recommend to you an immediate attention to the great ob-


94 ADDRESS ON THE KING'S SPEECH. [Dec' ,
country. — Having manifested to the whole world, by the mos


tlasting examples, the signal spirit and bravery of my peo ple 4r
conceived it a moment not unbecoming my dignity, and th


4oughtit a regard due to the lives and fortunes of such brave and gallon
subjects, to show myself ready, on my part, to embrace fair an
honourable terms of accommodation with all the powers at war.
I have the satisfaction to acquaint you, that negotiations m this
effect arc considerably advanced ; the result of which, as soon a,
they are brought to a conclusion, shall be immediately communs
cated to you. — I have every reason to hope and believe, that I
shall have it in my power, in a very short time, to acquaint you,
that they have ended in terms of pacification, which, I trust, yea
will see just cause to approve. I rely, however, with perfect con.
fidence, on the wisdom of my parliament, and the spirit of my
people, that, if any unforeseen change in the dispositions of the
belligerent powers should frustrate my confident expectations, they
will approve of the preparations I have thought it advisable to
make, and be ready to second the most vigorous efforts in the further
prosecution of the war.


" Gentlemen of the House of Commons, I have endeavoured, by
every measure in my power, to diminish the burthens of my peo-
ple. I lost no time in taking the most decided measures for intro-
ducing a better economy into the expenditure of the army.--I
have carried into strict execution the several reductions in my civil:
list expellees, directed by an act of the last session. I have in-
troduced a further reform into other departments, and suppressed
several sinecure places in them. I have by this means so regulated
my establishments, that my expence shall not in future exceed my
income. — I have ordered the estimate of the civil-list debt, laid
before you last session, to be completed. The debt proving greater
than could be then correctly stated, and the proposed reduction
not immediately taking place, I trust, you will provide for the de
ficiency ; securing, as before, the repayment out of my annual in-
come. I have ordered inquiry to be made into the application of
she sum voted in support of the American sufferers ; and I trust that
you will agree with me, that a due and generous attention ought
to be shown towards those who have relinquished their pro-
perties or professions from motives of loyalty to me, or attachment
to the mother country.—As it may be necessary to give stability to
some regulations by act of parliament, I have ordered accounts of
the several establishments, incidental expences, fees, and other
emoluments of office, to be laid before you. Regulations have
already taken place in some, which it is my intention to extend to
all ; and which, besides expediting all business, must produce a very
considerable saving, without taking from that ample encouragement)
which ought to be held forth to talents, diligence, and integrity,
wherever they are to be found. — I have directed en •enquiry to be
made into whatever regards tile landed revenue of my crown, es
well as the management of my woods and forests, that both may be
made as beneficial as possible, and that the latter may furnish a cer'
tain resource for supplying the navy, our great national bulwark,
with its first material. —1 have directed an investigation into Lb'




96 ADDRESS ON THE KING'S SPEECH. [Dec. s.


ciples, depends on your temper, your wisdom, your disinterested-
ness, collectively and individually. My people expect these qua-
lifications of you: and I call for them."


An address of thanks in answer to the above speech having been
moved by Mr. Yorke, of Cambridgeshire, and seconded by Mr.
Bank es,


Mr. Fox rose. He said, that Though he did not mean
to give any opposition to the Address that had been just
moved, or to propose any amendment. to it, still he did not
think that it would be proper for him, at so important a crisis
as the present, to let the first day of the session pass over,
without some remarks on a subject of the greatest magnitude.
He could have wished that it had Eden to the lot of some
other person to have taken the lead that day, on account of
the situation in which he stood, and the suspicions which he
was above denying he entertained of some of his majesty's
ministers. That situation, and those suspicions, might in-
cline the House to think that he meant, by rising thus early,
to oppose government, right or wrong, and to obstruct their
measures at any rate. He disclaimed all such intentions.
Whatever might be his situation, and whatever his suspicions,
he should support the present ministry in all things in which
he thought they were acting for the public good; and lie rose
now for the purpose of making some remarks on the speech
from the throne. With some parts he was Well pleased, and he
did not mean to give any opposition to the rest, or to propose
any amendment. There were some things in the speech which
particularly struck him, and some things also in the speeches
of the two honourable gentlemen who moved and second-
ed the address, particularly the latter. And first, he would take
notice, that in the very out-set of the king's speech, which, ac-
cording to parliamentary custom, he must consider as the
speech of the minister, there was an inaccuracy in point of
time, which he was willing to look upon merely as the effect
of inattention, and not of design ; where it was stated, that
since the last session of parliament, his majesty had lost no
time In giving the necessary orders for putting an end to
the war on the continent of America. If this date of the
orders had been correct, it would have be-en .


the strongest
proof of guilt in him, and in those with whom •


he had had
the honour to act in .his majesty's councils, for having so
long delayed to send out those orders, which parliament had
pronounced to be so necessary .; but in fact, they had been
issued long before: this much he thought necessary to pre-
mise, lest the character of a noble friend, now no more, and
his own, should suffer iv an imputation, that order& for put-


1782.] ADDRESS ON THE KING'S SPEECH. 97


tiny an end to offensive operations in America had not been,
sent till after the recess of parliament. [The Chancellor of
the Exchequer interrupted Mr. Fox for a moment, just to
assure him, that, upon a carefid perusal of the speech, he
would find that there was not so much as a shadow of ground
for any such imputation.] Mr. Fox again observed, that he
had not a doubt but such an imputation might be drawn from
the speech, though he was convinced that there had been no
intention in administration that the speck should convey it.
For the words of the speech were, " Since the close of the
last session, I have employed my whole time in the care and
attention which the important and critical conjuncture of pub-
lic affairs required of me," and iii direct continuation, "
lost no time in giving the necessary orders to prevent the fur-
ther prosecution of offensive war upon the continent of North
America." It: language was to be understood in its common
acceptation, this certainly meant that this important fact was
done since the last session, and consequently since he and
his friends had left his majesty's councils; and by the same
strain of language,. all the other concerns mentioned in the
speech seemed to take their origin from that date. This cer-
tainly- was so ; but he hoped and trusted it was so by inadver-
tancy only.


As to the provisional articles of peace with America, it was
impossible for him, at this moment, to approve Or condemn.
them, because he was utterly unacquainted with them; but
he would take it for granted, that the independence, the un-
conditional independence of America was recognised by the
first article. The great difference between him, and the pre-
sent minister on that head, was, that the latter wished that
the independence should be the price of peace, while on his
part, he was of opinion, that no barter should be made; but
that Great Britain should, in a manly manner, recognise at
once that independence, which it was not in her power to
check or overturn. For this he had two reasons : one was,
that it would appear magnanimous • on the part of England,
and inspire America with confidence to treat with us, when
we should set out by irrevocably granting her independence;
a confidence which she could not feel, if this independence
was to depend on other measures, which were not yet agreed
to: his other reason was, that by a provisional treaty (to
take place when -France and Great Britain should have settled
terms of peace with each other) the very preliminary article
of which was an acknowledgment of American independence,
England and America should have so completely determined
all their differences, that nothing more would remain to con-
tend for between them; the two countries might then be said


VOL. II.




98
ADDRESS ON THE KING'S SPEECH. [Dec. 5-


to be virtually at peace ; or if America should continue the
war as the ally of France, it would be a war so very like a
peace, that France deriving little or no advantage from it,
would be the more easily induced to think of peace, and be
the less forward to propose harsh or dishonourable terms to
-this country. These were the reasons by which he was in-
fluenced to advise the recognition of unconditional indepen-
dence; and he was the more surprised to find that ministers
had been so tardy in making peace with America by a pro-
visional treaty, when the same happy effect might have been
produced months ago, if unconditional independence had
been earlier offered. For his part, he was unable.to account
for the delay : when his majesty had given him orders to write
to Mr. Grenville, at Paris, to authorise him to offer inde-
pendence unconditionally to America, he obeyed the orders
with a degree of pleasure, which could be equalled only by
that which he felt, when he read the letter of Lord Shelburne
to Sir Guy Carleton, in which the words of the letter to Mr.
Grenville were recited ; when lie read that letter, he carried it
with pleasure to the late Marquis of Rockingham, and with
joy told him, that all their distrusts and suspicions of the noble
Lord's intentions were groundless ; but his pleasure on that
occasion was not of long duration ; for even before death
had removed the noble Marquis from the Treasury, the Earl
of Shelburne began to speak of the dreadful consequences
that must ensue to this country, if America should be sepa-
rated from it; and gave a decisive opinion, that the letter to
Mr. Grenville, and the recital of the same to Sir Guy Carle-
ton, were not an unconditional recognition of American inde-
pendence, but a conditional offer to be recalled in certain
circumstances. This


for
me suspicion, said Mr. Fox, which


I could not conceal; for in writing the letter to Mr. Grenville,
I had chosen the most forcible words that the English lan-
guage could supply to express my meaning : as far as I can
recollect they were these, or exactly to this meaning: " to
recognize the independence ( America, in the first instance,
and not to reserve it as a condition of peace." When he saw.
the recital of these words in the letter of the Earl of Shelburne
to Sir Guy Carleton, all his doubts vanished, and he was com-
pletely relieved. 'What, then, must be his astonishment and
torture, when in the illness and apprehended decease of the
noble Marquis, another language was heard in the. cabinet,
and some even of his own friends began to consider these
letters only as offers of a conditional nature—to be recalled
if they did not purchase peace. I considered myself as en-
snared and betrayed ; I therefore determined to take the mea-
sure by which alone I could act with consistency and honour


1782.]
ADDRESS ON THE KING'S SPEECH.


99
— I called for precise declarations — I demanded explicit
language and when I saw that the persons, in whom I had
originally no great confidence, were so eager to delude, and
so determined to change the ground on which they had set
out, I relinquished my seat in the cabinet, with the heartfelt
satisfaction of having maintained my principles unstained, and
with the prospect of being able to do, by leaving it, what I
could not accomplish by remaining there. Mr. Fox said his
hopes and expectations were fulfilled, just as he had appre-
hended and stated to that House : he had been able to per-
suade his majesty's ministers to the discharge of their duty,
more effectually in that House, than he was able to do hi a
private room. Thank Heaven the measure was now taken,
the deed was done, and done, he hoped, in the most effectual
way, and he agreed with the honourable seconder of the ad-
dress, that in doing this we gave away nothing. The inde-
pendence of America was acknowledged by his majesty's mi-
nisters; and though it had been said, " that whenever this
should happen, the sun of England would set, and her glories
be eclipsed for ever," yet he was of a contrary opinion, and
he would defend the Earl of Shelburne against any peer who
should hold such language. He had set his hand to sign the
independence of America, although it had been insidiously said,
that " it would be the ruin of his country, and that he would
be a traitor who should do it." But if any peer should dare
to impeach the Earl of Shelburne for having done this, I, said
Mr. Fox, will stand up his advocate —I will defend him against
all such artful and insidious charges — I will hold him harm-
less, and protect him from the accusation of " having dared
to give away the rights of Great Britain;" and pledge myself,
that the recognition of the independence of America shall not
be " stained with the blood of the minister who should sign it."
Mr. Fox: here alluded to expressions that had formerly been
made use of by the Earl of Shelburne. Quitting this strain of
irony, the honourable gentleman said, that the noble Earl had
done this important matter even after all these sayings, and
thinking as he did, that it was so wrong, and so alarming,—
he could not avoid. on this occasion, applying to him a
distich, which he had read in a ludicrous poet:


" You've done a noble turn in Nature's spite,
For tho' you think you're wrong, Pm sure you're right."


There were some expressions in the speech, which,, though
he did not intend to find fault with, he would have been as
well pleased had they been left out ; and these were the expres-
sions of the concern felt by his majesty, at the idea of re-
nouncing the claims of this country over America ; it would


2




tO0 ADDRESS ON THE KING'S SPEECH. [Dec.


have been surely much better, had his majesty been advised
boldly and manfully at once to give way to necessity, and not
to express so much dejection at parting with the sovereignty
over a country, which it was no longer in his power to assert
and maintain ; but much as he disliked these expressions, he
was as much pleased with those in which his majesty indulges
the philosophic speculation of prospects of future connection
with America, from similarity of language, manners, religion,
and laws : for his own part, he did not doubt but the day
would come, when by a firm alliance between Great Britain
and America, the courts of France and Spain would awake
from their idle and illusory dreams of advantage, which they
think will follow to them by the separation of America from
the mother country; through that alliance the sun of Britain
might rise again, and shine forth with dazzling lustre. But to
induce America to confide in us, we should convince her, by
the most open and unreserved conduct, that we mean fairly,
honestly, and sincerely by her. He was always of opinion
that it was not right, in our present circumstances, to think
of treating with America, by way of bargain for her indepen-
dence. He conceived, that the only method of acting, which
was at once political and wise, was to behave with manliness
and generosity; and to shew them that there was still a disposi-
tion in the government of this country to treat them with the
nobleness of Englishmen. This was his idea, when he sat at
his majesty's council board, and this was the conduct which
he had recommended ever since he perceived that we should
soon come to the necessity of recognizing their independence,
either with grace, or by compulsion; but he was afraid that
ministers would act in such a manner as to create suspicions,
even where they meant to act honestly. For instance, in the
Secretary of State's letter to the Lord Mayor, the colonies
were very properly stiled the United States of America; and
as he made no doubt, but in the provisional treaty they were
to declared, he expected to have heard them called by this
name in his majesty's speech; and the disappointment he felt
on that occasion gave him the more concern, as he perceived
there was even now a backwardness publicly to avow and ac-
knowledge, what he trusted and hoped was already done in the
treaty — the independence of America. Surely, if it was
thought proper to call them by their proper name, in the letter
of the Secretary of State, it would not have been unfit to call
them so in the speech; surely his right honourable friend did
not mean to defraud his master of the merit of conciliating
the hearts of the Americans, and binding them to this country
by expressions of . grace and kindness. He was sorry that
his majesty's' ministers had not advised their royal master to


1782.] ADDRESS ON THE KING'S SPEECH. Iot


make use of language more dignified and becoming, than
that which they had put into his mouth.


He was sorry that the speech held out no prospect to this
country of alliances to support her, in case she should be
obliged, by the unreasonable exactions of France, to continue
the war. He hoped there was no neglect in so important a
branch of a minister's duty, as that of making friends and
allies ; and yet he could not think, that if we were at this
moment without friends, it was for want of a good disposition
towards this country in some of the most powerful states of
Europe. It was true, that while the old ministry were at the
head of affairs, there was not the least ground for hope that
any power would make common cause with a country that
was ruled by madmen ; but he was surprised that, when the
nation had come to its senses, and driven these madmen front
the cabinet, the friendly disposition of some of the great
courts of Europe to England had not been courted with suc-
cess. He himself had not been long in office ; but, short as
the time was, it was long enough to convince him that Eng-
land was not destitute of powerful friends in Europe, whose
friendship might have been cultivated with success, and im-
proved to the great advantage of this country.


Peace to him appeared a most desirable object; but much
as he wished for peace, he certainly would not go the lengths
to obtain it which the honourable member who had seconded
the motion seemed willing to go: what that honourable
member had said on the subject had cast a melancholy gloom
upon his mind ; and he hoped that it was more from ima-
gination than from information that he spoke : no man felt
more the deplorable situation of the country than he did ; but
he did not think that the most effectual way to incline the
•nemy to a disposition towards a favourable and equitable
peace, was to tell them that we were so completely reduced
that no terms could be too hard for us to digest ; that our re-
sources were so dried up, that economy could scarcely enable
us to bear -up under the heavy burthen heaped upon our
shoulders; nay, that parsimony could scarcely do it; and
that hardly any thing short of avarice could save us from sink-
ing; he himself was not sanguine in his hopes of finding great
resources in this country; but he was not yet so desponding as
to say, that he would not rather carry on the war still longer,
than submit to a dishonourable peace: it was not, indeed, to
be expected, that we could treat advantageously ; but our si-
tuation was not so desperate as that we ought to accept of


, dishonourable or unreasonable terms: before the provisional
treaty with America, we had four powers to contend with ;
but as he must from the signing of the treaty pronounce the


H


0




102 ADDRESS ON THE KING'S SPEECH. [Dec. s.
American war to be at an end, so he thought we ought to
derive fresh courage, when we should be able to spend in
operations against the three remaining hostile powers the four
or five millions that used to be spent on the continent of
America : for he thought that the provisional agreement, if it
did not actually give us peace with America, would give us
something so like a peace, that •we might freely employ the
troops now in America against the other powers.


The honourable seconder was not satisfied, it seemed, with
the idea of subscribing to any terms of peace, merely for the
sake of getting peace; but he consulted the durability of it,
and seemed ready to sacrifice every thing in order to make it
lasting : now, he was of a different' opinion ; for in making a
disadvantageous peace, he would not for a moment think of
its durability, but attend solely to the object of availing him-
self of the opportunity afforded by the cessation from hostili-
ties, to cultivate the friendship of some of the great powers of
Europe, and to make such alliances as would enable him to
go to war again with greater prospect of success. The ho-
nourable member, after praising the conduct of General El-
liot and Lord Howe, in their gallant defence and relief of
Gibraltar, threw a gloom over the minds of all who had heard
him, by hinting at the possibility of this important fortress
being about to be ceded to the enemy. He could not easily
express how much he was struck with this alarming hint, and
he hoped that in this he spoke merely from speculation, and
not from authority; for the possession of that fortress and har-
bour was invaluable to this country, though some people of
late affected to say, that it was of no farther use to us. In
former wars its value was often felt; and if, in the present
war, the old ministry had not been as dastardly as they were
mad, perhaps all the calamities of this war might have been
prevented. If a fleet had been stationed there in time to
watch the Mediterranean, Comte d'Estaign never could have
got to America, to give that assistance to the colonies, which
had since secured to them their independence; but the mis-
fortune of this country was to have ministers at that time,
who, while they spoke in the most lordly terms to America,
and insisted that she should be reduced to unconditional sub-
mission, were - endeavouring to cajole the court of Spain ;
and refrained from sending out a formidable fleet to Gibral-
tar, because they conceived that the King of Spain would
take umbrage at seeing a fleet in the Mediterranean : but had
the measure been adopted, there would have been little reason
to be apprehensive of any bad consequences from his resent-
ment, for then we should have had it in our power to pre-
vent the evil that a union of the fleets of France and Spain


1782.]


ADDRESS ON THE KING'S SPEECH. 103


must always threaten this country with. To cajole an ene-
my was surely not the way in which a powerful and wise nation
would seek their security. They would break their strength;
they would crush their rising efforts ; and a sagacious minis-
try would always employ Gibraltar in dividing France from
France, Spain from Spain, and the one nation from the other.
But though this measure was not adopted, from which the
most solid advantages would have flowed, still it must be ad-
mitted, that even in the present war, Gibraltar had been of
infinite use to this country, by the diversion of so considera-
ble a part of the force of our enemies, which, employed else-
where, might have greatly annoyed us. But, said the ho-
nourable member, " Spain having seen the folly of attempting
to reduce that fortress, may never again be tempted to invest
it, and therefore it•may never again occasion a diversion of
her force." This was a mode of reasoning that experience
did not seem to justify ; he had, in general, too great a re-
spect for princes to speak lightly of them : but there might be
near the heart of every prince a longing after something
which could not be removed but by the attainment or posses
Sion of that something ; a thousand disappointments might
not be able to convince him that his longing could never be
gratified. Those who knew the history of this country for the
last nine years would be ready to agree with him, that it was
not easy to convince men of their follies, even when they
were proved to be so. We had in this country continued
for eight years the war in America ; and yet the misfortunes
of each preceding campaign, which ought to have suede us
wiser, by convincing us that we were engaging in a ruinous
pursuit of an object which we could never attain, had not till
lately wrought that effect: and what should hinder us from
thinking that the King of Spain might not persevere zealously
in the longing for the reduction of Gibraltar, as a Prince
nearer home was taught to pant after the phantom of uncon-.
ditional submission from America ? The fortress of Gibraltar
was to be ranked among the most important possessions of this
country ; it was that which gave us respect in the eyes of na-
tions; it manifested our superiority, and gave us the means of
obliging them by protection. Give up to Spain the fortress
of Gibraltar, and the Mediterranean becomes to them. a pool,
a pond in which they can navigate at pleasure, and act with-
out control or check. Deprive yourselves of this station, and
the states ,of Europe, that border on the Mediterranean, will
no longer 'look to you for the maintenance of the free naviga-
tion of that sea; and having it no longer in your power to be
useful, you cannot expect alliances. The honourable gentle-
man talked of the cession of this important fortress on a prin.-


I
4




104 ADDRESS ON THE ICING'S SPEECH. [Dec. 5•


ciple the most delusive. Because it was a possession dear to'
the enemy, the object of their ambition and their pride, he
would yield it to them, as the means of preventing future wars.
This .was a maxim the most delusive that could be ; and the
honourable gentleman ought to know that generalities might
in all cases be carried too far. If you govern yourselves by
this maxim, there will be no end to cession, because there
will be no end to desire. Ambition is a vice which grows
like avarice from what it feeds on ; and the honourable gen-
tleman must be strangely ignorant of the ambition, avarice,
and lust of human governments, if he thinks that the posses-
sion of Gibraltar, because it is the immediate object of the
court of Spain, would prevent them from forming new de-
sires, which they would endeavour to gratify by new wars. If
you teach them that war induces you to cession, there is not a
doubt but they will go to war. The true policy, therefore, is
to teach them that you will not gratify passion so pursued ;
that you know there is no economy in cession ; and that it is
wiser and more for your interest to continue expensive wars,
than by unwise and foolish concessions to purchase .a tempo-
rary peace, neither safe nor honourable. The honourable
gentleman may talk of the durability of peace, said Mr. Fox,
but I can never think it wise to pay much regard to that pros-
pect. The inconsistency, the weakness, and the passions of
human governments will in all time continue to tear asunder
the bands of civil concord; and no gratification, no accession,
no dismemberment of empire, no good fortune, no calamity,
will induce kings to sit down contented with what they have
acquired, or patient under their loss, but after a little breath-
ing time they will again rise into outrage, offence, and war.
In negotiating a peace, therefore, he would rather stipulate
for the advantages, than the durability of it, sensible that its
duration must depend on contingencies not at all within his
power to reach.


Having said so much. on what the honourable gentleman
bad thrown out about Gibraltar, mid the principle of conces-
sion, he would not take upon him to say, that in no possible
situation the fortress of Gibraltar ought to be bartered, or
given up. But if, after all this, it should be determined to
give up Gibraltar, he would advise ministers not to attempt to
sink the value of it, but to rate it as high as it ought to be, and
then make the best bargain that they could, either by getting
the most money for it, or exchanging it for a valuable and ade-
quate consideration. And here he would take an opportu-
nity to express his hearty concurrence in that part of the ad-
dress which replied to the honourable mention made by his
n4esty of the defence and relief of Gibraltar: the ot:tcluct of


1782:1 ADDRESS ON THE KING'S SPEECH. 105


General Elliott would immortalize his name ; and the latest
posterity would be at a loss which to admire in the hero
most, his gallantry in repelling the various attacks, or
his humanity in saving from impending death the enemy
he had defeated. He had combined qualities the most un-
common, and had risen almost superior to every precedent
of reality. We could only seek for his image in the chronicles
of romance, where heroes were painted in a stile of colouring
superior to human nature. The noble lord who had relieved
the garrison was almost above praise ; in the sight of a supe-
rior force he threw relief into Gibraltar ; and then, he would
not say he had insulted, because be did not wish to use bard
words, but he braved the united fleets of France and Spain.
Could he do more ? If any one in this House, (said Mr. Fox,
looking at Governor Johnstone,) thinks he could, let him speak
out, and charge the noble lord. If there is any man who has
accused him in public or in private circles, in anonymous slan-
ders, or in pamphlet attacks", let him now come forward
and speak his sentiments. It was riot in England only that
the character of Lord Howe was admired : a foreigner of dis-
tinction had written from Paris in the following terms. " Every
one here is full of admiration at the conduct of Lord Howe.
All praise his bravery and humanity. All wish to take his
conduct for their example. This makes us think, that in your
country a court martial will be appointed to try him whenever
he arrives in England." And here it was but decent to give
that tribute of


He
which was so justly due to the present


Admiralty. He had often spoken in desponding terms of the
state of the navy, when it was surrendered up by the last
Admiralty; but desponding as his language was, it did not ex-
press half the despondency he then felt: what, then, must have
been the exertions of the noble Lord now at the head of the
naval department of government, when he had fitted out a fleet
that was able to brave the combined fleets, from which we used
in preceding campaigns to flv ? It had been the astonish-


,


ment of Europe, and had given such advantages and brilliancy
to the present campaign, as would and ought to be felt in the
making of a peace.


He next touched upon the present cabinet, and observed,
that though he disliked its construction, there was some of its.
constituent parts against which he could have no objection ; for
Lie knew that though one member of the cabinet might promise
a great deal more than he intended to perform, there were.


* Alluding to a letter signed " Nautical," supposed to be written by
--Torarnor Johnstone.




o 6 ADDRESS ON THE KING'S SPEECH. [Dec. 5.
others who would hold him to the performance of his promises :
as to himself, he believed he really was of more service out of
office, and debating in that House, than he could possibly have
been if he had remained in the cabinet; for he found that those
measures, which, while in office, he recommended in vain to
the council, were readily adopted when he laid down his em-
ployments.


He was entirely of the opinion of the honourable gentleman
who seconded the motion, that a peace was to be procured if
possible; but surely the minister knew that he had the means
of supporting war. The number of men whom he found " rid-
ing in hackney coaches, crowding the streets, and travelling
the Bath road," chewed him that the nation was not exhausted
of resources, but had yet the means of supporting the war, in
case our enemies should be disinclined to an honourable
and fair peace. He was for peace in preference to war. It
was not the policy of this nation to go to war for territory, from
the lust of more dominion, or the love of power. He would
be as moderate in his desire of new acquisitions, as he would
be determined in his resolution to keep what we have.


He adverted to the reports of large voluntary gifts to go-
vernment by private individuals. He said, he admitted and
admired the public spirit and generosity of the persons who
made the offers; but he begged leave to lay in his protest
against their legality; and he conceived that the compliment
paid to them in the speech was ill judged and improper.
He conceived, that according to our constitution, no money
could be received by the executive branch, and applied to the
public purposes of the nation, which did not pass through the
hands of parliament, and had not the sanction of the Com-
mons of England. Such aids were contrary to the very es-
sence of our constitution; for by such benevolences, govern-
ment was entrusted with money which came not under the
check and controul of parliament. This question had been
agitated some time ago in that House, brought on by an
nent lawyer, now a member of the other House, and one of '
his majesty's cabinet counsellors, (Lord Ashburton,) by whose
arguments he was thoroughly convinced of the illegality of
benevolences, and gave his vote on the question accordingly.


He hoped and believed that the prospect held out in the
speech, of attention being to be paid to our East-India con-
cerns, would not be delusive. He deemed the national ho-
nour pledged in this business; and he trusted it was not in-
tended by any sophistry to depart from the resolutions already
come to concerning it. The learned lord advocate, (Mr.
Dundas,) who had been indefatigable in pursuing this business,
had received his countenance and support while in place, and


1782.71 ADDRESS ON THE KING'S SPEECH. 107


he trusted that no change* in either of their situations would
occasion any difference of sentiment and conduct.


He assured ministers that he did not mean to give them
any wanton opposition. He would support them as far as he
could with honour and duty ; and however he might object
to the constitution of the administration, and however he
might suspect the sincerity of some among them, yet he could
not think that any thing very hostile to this country could be
formed, while he saw in that cabinet some men of whose vir-
tue and integrity he entertained so high an idea.


He concluded with taking notice of something that fell
from Mr. Yorke, with respect to the reformation in public
offices, and the distress it would bring on individuals if their
salaries were not continued during their lives. He was sure his
honourable friend who first brought about these reformations
did not mean that any person should suffer by them ; that the
intentions of his honourable friend had been greatly mis-re-
presented in that particular ; and if such cruelties were in-
tended, they were to be ascribed to those who had the execu-
tion of the arrangements. He trusted, he said, that he should
soon see the provisional articles laid upon the table ; till which
time he begged to be understood,- that the vote which he gave
on that day, he gave in the persuasion that those articles con-
tained a full and final renunciation of the independence of
America: and he begged also to be understood that he
pledged himself to no other object than that, nor possessed
any high opinion of the other parts of the speech, delivered
that day from the throne.


The address was agreed to by the House without any division.
On the following day, when the report from the committee ap-
pointed to draw up • the said address was read,


Mr. Fox rose. He said, that a doubt struck him as well
as others, with respect to one thing, which he hoped his ma-
jesty's ministers would now explain, if they could do it con-
sistently. The question which he wished to ask was, Whether
the provisional treaty concluded with America, by which the
independence of America was no doubt fully recognized, was
done unconditionally ; so that if the negotiations now carrying
forward with France for a general peace should not be brought
to a speedy determination, still the provisional agreement
would remain in force, and whenever we should have a peace
with the European powers, this agreement would be finally


* Mr. Dundas had recently been appointed Treasurer of the Navy.




108 ADDRESS ON THE KING'S SPEECH.
[Dec. 5.


ratified? If this was the case, he approved of the vote which
he had given ; but if it was otherwise, if this provisional treaty
depended on the present negotiation, and was to die with it,
then he revoked the approbation which he had given, and
held himself at liberty to declare, that such an agreement would
be mad and impolitic. I'Ve should, by that means, have no-
thing in the shape of peace with America, but should go on
in eternal war. This was his clear, decided opinion, and he
should retract ever y syllable of praise he had given to the mea-
sure if he found it Clad been clone in this way. His reason for
asking this question was, that he had heard a different explana-
tion had been given of the provisional articles in another
place, and it was a matter of the utmost moment that it should
be clearly and fully understood before they ratified their con-
sent to the address. One thing more he would take notice of
now that he was upon his legs. It had been said of him in
the debate yesterday, that he had always been a friend to the
independence of America. This was not the case. He had
all along considered the independence of America as an evil of
great magnitude, and as such he had always spoken of it.
But when America became independent, which in his mind she
had been absolutely for the last five years, he had declared
his wishes for the recognition of their independence as an
act salutary and seasonable for the legislature of this country,
by which we might do that with grace which we must at last
do without it, and thereby conciliate and restore harmony
between the two countries. He repeated the question which
he had put to ministers with respect to the provisional agree-
ment which had been, he said, the principal purpose for which
he had risen.


In consequence of this appeal Mr. Secretary Townshend, Mr.
Chancellor Pitt, and General Conway, the Commander in Chief,
severally rose and declared, that the articles were only so far pro-
visional, that they depended upon the single contingency of peace
being concluded with France : but whenever that event took place,
the independence of America stood recognized withput any re-
served condition whatever.


1782.] INDEPENDENCY OF TILE UNITED STATES.
109


MR. FOX'S MOTION roil SUCH or THE ARTICLES or THF.
PROVISIONAL TREATY WITH AMERICA, AS RELATE TO
THE RECOGNITION OF THE INDEPENDENCY OF THE UNITED
STATES.


December 18.


THE contrariety of opinion amongst the members of thecabinet, which discovered itself in the preceding debate
occasioned a second debate in the House of Lords. On the
13th Earl Fitzwilliarn remarked, that these contradictions be-
ing public and notorious, might lead to consequences of the ut-
most importance, and therefore demanded an immediate explana-
tion. During the progress of negotiations with artful and jealous
enemies, every appearance of duplicity, or even ambiguity in our
councils, ought most anxiously to be avoided. In order, therefore
to rescue government from the suspicions under which it lay ; in
order to satisfy the country that the subjugation of America could
not, under any possible circumstances, be again attempted ; in.
order to secure confidence to administration both at home and
abroad, he begged leave to propose the following question to the
noble earl at the head of his majesty's treasury : " Is it to be un-
derstood that the independence of America is never again to be-
come a subject of doubt, discussion, or bargain ; but is to take effect
absolutely at any period, near or remote, whenever a treaty of
peace is concluded with the court of France, though the present
treaty should entirely break off? Or, on the contrary, is the inde-
pendence of America merely contingent ; so that if the particular
treaty now negotiating with that court should not terminate in a
peace, the offer is to be considered as revoked, and the indepen-
dence left to be determined by circumstances, and the events of
war?" To the question thus put, the minister positively refused to
give any answer, and was supported by the Dukes of Richmond and
Chandos. It was urged in vain, that he had already, on the first
day of the session, avowed his sentiments in a full and explicit man-
ner; that the present question was only put on account of doubts
that had arisen from the contradictory assertions of others of his
majesty's servants; that it was the language of ministers, and not
the secrets of the treaty, of which an explanation was desired ;
that the fact must necessarily be known to all the parties concern-
ed in the subsisting negotiations ; that it was a secret to the British
parliament alone ; and that no possible mischief could arise from
his giving the satisfaction required. The Earl of Shelburne per-
sisted in his refusal ; declaring that the whole house should not
force an answer from him, which he conceived he could not give
without violation of his oath as a privy counsellor. Declaring war
and snaking peace, were, he said, the undoubted prerogative of the
cro,ka, and ought to be guarded from all incroachment with the




1 10 ATOTION RELATING To THE [Dec. 18.
most particular care. If the popular parts of the constitution
thought themselves better adapted for carrying on negotiations of
this sort, he would advise them to go to the King at once, and tell
him that they were tired of the monarchical establishment, that they
meant to do the business of the crown themselves, and had no fur-
ther occasion for his services. No man, he added, could be more
anxious than himself to have the world know what he had done, and
to receive the judgment of parliament and of the people of England
upon his proceedings ; and that for this purpose, so soon as pru-
dence and policy should warrant, he would not lose a moment in
laying the treaty before them. With respect to the assertion that
had so frequently been made, that no mischief would arise from
giving the answer required, he said it was a little extraordinary that
those who knew not What the treaty was, should be so positive in
declaring there could be no secret's in it, whilst those who did
know its contents as positively asserted there were.—On the 16th
Mr. Fox gave notice of his intention to move, on the first conve-
nient day, for the provisional treaty to be laid before the house, or
such parts of it as related to the recognition of American indepen-
dence. At the same time, as a proof that he had no design to em-
barrass government, or throw any impediment in the way of the
minister's negotiations, he declared that if the secretary of state
would pledge himself to the house, that the treaty in question con-
tained particulars, which, if discovered earlier than the nioment
ministers might choose for laying it before parliament, would be at-
tended with mischievous consequences, and materially affect the
negotiations then carrying on, he would desist from his purpose
altogether. The minister refusing to pledge himself in the manner
proposed, on the 18th,


Mr. Fox rose to make his promised motion. He said,
that no two things upon earth could be more opposite to each
other than the explanation given to the same treaty by his
majesty's ministers in one place, and a minister of his majesty
in another ; for while the former had fairly and roundly de-
clared the treaty with America to be final, conclusive, and ir-
revocable; the latter as roundly asserted the very contrary.
He adverted particularly to what the Earl of Shelburne had
said on the sacredness of secrecy in this case. With what lit-
tle deference did that noble person treat his colleagues ! They
had fairly answered all these questions ; and if to answer them
fairly was to betray his majesty's secrets, and to violate the
privy counsellor's oath, the noble lord must of course look upon
his colleagues as perjured men, and betrayers of their trust.
It was a most convenient thing indeed for a man to have a
conscience, behind which he could shelter himself from what- tp
ever he did not like to face : the noble lord could not have
acted more wisely than when he had recourse to his oath ; and
a confessor could not have given a better advice : one might
have imagined, indeed, that the noble lord had drawn up


1 7 8 2.] INDEPENDENCY Or THE UNITED STATES.
J I I


case of conscience, and submitted it to a casuist; there was an
affectation in ministers, notwithstanding the diversity of opin-
ion that visibly prevailed among them, to have it thought that
they were all perfectly unanimous. But how stood that unan-
Unity ? They might indeed have all concurred in making a par-
ticular treaty ; but did they all agree in the interpretation of
it ? Not at all : the noble lord who was supposed to have the
greatest influence in his majesty's councils suffered his col-
leagues to explain as they understood: but he thought it pro-
per to assume to himself the same liberty; as he understood it
differently, so he explained it differently : all reasoning men
must allow, that unanimity in agreeing to a treaty was of little
consequence, when compared to unanimity in the interpreta-
tion of it : the words of the treaty were of themselves of little
consequence;- that which was truly consequential, was the in-
terpretation or construction put upon those words by those who
were to execute the treaty, and act upon them : a man might
differ in opinion from another, and yet might sacrifice his opin-
ion for the sake of unanimity, when there was a question of
adopting some particular measure; but when a measure was
adopted, to differ about the meaning of that measure, this was
the division, this was the difference teat he thought of the most
dangerous nature to the public. To exemplify this, in a case
in which he was concerned; he stated the Earl of Shelburne's
letter to Sir Guy Carleton, in which the independence of
America was declared to be a measure, to which his majesty's
commissioners were instructed to subscribe unconditionally ;—
from that moment he rejoiced beyond expression, and would
have been happy, if he had been at liberty to shew this letter
to those who used frequently to intimate their suspicions to hint
that the noble earl would never consent to recognize the in
dependence of America; how easily could he, if he had been
at liberty, have silenced their complaints, and dispelled all
their doubts ! But what must have been his surprise, if after
so full and ample a declaration made by the noble earl in his
letter, he had afterwards found him endeavouring to explain.
it away? What confidence could the other powers of Europe
place in the ministers of this country, when they found that
how unanimous soever they might be in agreeing to a mea-
sure, they never could be brought to hold the same opinion
when the purport of that measure was to be explained ?
What must Europe think of us, if after he had informed all .
the foreign courts, that we were about to recognize uncondi-
tionally the independence of America, they should find that
his colleague in office, who had concurred in the measure,
explained itin the most different manner ? In Mr. Secretary
Hamilton's letter, the Lord Mayor of Dublin, and through him




kOTION RELATING TO THE [Dec. I 8.


the people of Ireland, were informed that the independence
of America was finally recognized by England, in a treaty
which was to take effect between the two powers, whenever
we should make peace with France. Could any terms be
more strong ? The independence being finally recognised, it
was with propriety that the Lord Lieutenant, speaking of
England and America, had called them these two powers ;
but how must his Excellency feel, how must the people of
Ireland feel, when they hear, in contradiction to his Excellen-
cy's letter that the first minister of this country has declared,
that the independence is not finally recognised ; for that as the
treaty in which it is recognised is revocable, the independence
is only conditional, and of course not finally recognised ! - To
come to a full eclaircissement on this subject, it was his wish
to see the treaty itself; and as the House would barely desire
to have the treaty, the noble earl need not be alarmed for his
conscience; he might produce the articles, and keep his mean-
ing to himself; the House of Commons would put a construc-
tion upon them themselves, which could not in future be ex-
plained away by any minister. If there was any part of the
treaty which ministers would undertake to say, could not, in
their opinion, be disclosed without danger in the present state
of the negotiation, he would not press the motion he intended
to make : there always was a willingness or bias in the House
to support government, and he would call that bias laudable ;
and shew he felt it in himself, by withdrawing his motion, if
ministers would assure him that there were parts of,the treaty
that were not yet ripe for disclosure. He had heard it reported,
that there were in the treaty with America, secret articles
unknown to France, and known only to England and Ame-
rica; he did not desire to see these articles; nay, to be can-
did, he would not even desire that ministers should say there
were any such. In a word, all he wished to learn was, whe-
ther there was really a subsisting treaty with America, which
should survive the present negotiations with France, though
they should not end in a peace ? This being a reasonable cu-


. riosity, he expected support in his motion, though he courted
none : lie did not know whether he might expect the support
of the noble lord in the blue ribbon, who, in a strange mode
of reasoning, brought himself to vote with ministers, because
they did not agree with one another. If his motion should
be adopted, the House would then be able to judge for them-
selves, whether the independence was,. as he hoped it was, un-
conditional and irrevocable. He then moved, " That an
humble Address be presented to his majesty, that he will be
graciously pleased to give directions, that there be laid before
this House, such parts of the provisional articles, agreed upon,


; '782.] INDEPENDENCY OF THE UNITED STATES. T I 3


between his majesty's commissioners and the commissioners
of the United States of America, as relate to the recognition
of the independency of the said States."


The motion was supported by Lord John Cavendish, Lord
Maitland, Mr. Hartley, Mr. Byng, Mr. Burke, and Mr. Sheridan ;
and opposed by the ministers and their friends as unseasonable
and unnecessary. Mr. Thomas Pitt moved the order of the day.
General Conway, the commander in chief, at the close of the
debate, observed, that the motion had not met with the concur-
rence of the House, and Ile did not think the mover would dare
to take the sense of the House upon it, as he knew that he should
be attended into the lobby by so small a minority.


Mr. Fox entered into a full examination of all that had
been said in answer to his arguments, and in objection to his
motion. That he dared not to take the sense of the I-louse,
lie said, was language that he did not expect to hear from
the right honourable gentleman. That the smallness of aP
minority was a proof of the weakness. of the cause, was a pro-
position he thought would not have been advanced by that
right honourable gentleman, after the many hard trials and
severe struggles they had had to cure that House of their love
of the American war. He commented on his declaration, that
there was no material difference in the language of his ma-
jesty's ministers on the nature of the provisional treaty. It
was one of the slight differences then, which that right ho-
nourable gentleman regarded as immaterial; it was no more
than the independence or dependence of America. It was
no more than whether the mad scheme of subjugating Ame-
rica was abolished or not ; and this was what the right ho-
nourable gentleman, with his wonted facility and accommo-
dation, called a slight, innnaterial difference. The right
Honourable gentleman, said the American commissioners were
pleased with the treaty. With the treaty were they pleased,
or with the explanations of it ? With both explanations they
could not be pleased undoubtedly, and it was for the purpose
of affixing to it a certain, specific, absolute, and unchange..
able meaning that he desired to see it on the table. Mr. Fox
went pretty much into the enumeration of the advantages to
be reaped by its exposure, the first and greatest of which was,
that when the American people came to see that the recogni-
tion of the independence of America was ratified by


.
the l Peois-lature, all doubts would vanish; all jealousies would expire;


the bond which tied them to France would lose its energy ;
and if that hostile and ambitious power did not become mc,)
debate in its demands, America would agree to a separate
Peace. He laughed at the idle nonsense of danger, if


voL. 11.




I 14 IRISH JUDICATURE BILL.
[Jan. 22e


treaty was unequivocal. He confessed, that ministers had on
that day most implicitly obeyed the injunction they had re-
ceived of silence; for though they had spoken, he defied any
man to explain what they meant. In the king's speech there
breathed a pious hope that the similarity of language would
be a bond of union between Britain and America. If this
was true, as he trusted it was, what shameful policy it was
in the king's ministers to use language which, whether it was
English, or whether it was French, or whatever tongue it
might be, it was what no mortal could understand. They
would destroy the advantage of similarity of language. The
French might coinimunicate through the medium of a sworn
interpreter ; but the Earl of Shelburne objected to all sworn
interpreters, and insisted that they should use words to which
no meaning could be affixed of any kind whatever. Mr. Fox
most anxiously hoped, that the conduct of ministers on that
day would not give such distrust to nations, as to prevent
their gaining an honourable peace for their country. That
was the first great object of his heart, and his motion for the
production of the treaty, flowed from a sincere conviction,
that it would facilitate that great end.


The House then divided on the motion for the other order of
the day :




Tellers. Tellers.
YEAS (Lord Mahon}




Mr. Orde 219.
NOES


Byng 46.
Mr. Long S


Mr. Fox's motion was consequently rejected.


BILL VCR REMOVING DOUBTS CONCERNING THE EXCLUSIVE
RIGHTS OF THE PARLIAMENT AND COURTS OF IRELAND
IN MATTERS OF LEGISLATION AND JUDICATURE.


JanItaty 22. I 783.


VITEN
the matter of establishing. the legislative and judicial


'cr independence of the kingdom of Ireland was under the con-
sideration of the late ministry, two ways of doing it had occurred.
The one, by a renunciation of what this country held to be a right,
but which it was ready -to give up. This mode, however, it was
foreseen, might give offence to the people of Ireland, who con-




tended, that England:never had any such right. The other mode
Was by declaring that England, though it had exercised, had rie,.
ver been legagy possessed of; such a right : but to this mode


a


'783.]


IRISH JUDICATURE BILL.
II5


renunciation it was justly apprehended that the parliament of
Great Britain would not be brought to consent. The measure of
a simple repeal of the declaratory act of the 6th of Geo. I. was
therefore moved by Mr. Fox, and adopted, as most consistent
with the spirit of the people there, and the dignity of government
here : and though some leading men in Ireland seemed to think
that an absolute renunciation was necessary ; yet an address was
carried there through both houses, with only two or three dissen-
tient voices, expressing their perfect satisfaction, and declaring
that no constitutional question between the two countries would
any longer exist. After this the parliament of Ireland proceeded
in the exercise of their legislative capacity, to enact laws for re-
gulating their judicial proceedings, and for confining the decisions
of property to their own courts of law, with power of appeal to
the House of Lords of that country only. Things were going on
in this amicable manner, when a cause that had been removed by
writ of error from Ireland to the Court of King's Bench, long be-
fore the repeal had been in agitation and which the judge, by the
rules of the court, was bound to determine, was brought to a
decision. In consequence of this unlucky accident, Colonel Fitz-
patrick, on the 19th of December, called the immediate attention
of ministers to the insufficiency of the repealing act ; and on the
22d of January, 178 3 , immediately after the Christmas recess,
Mr. Secretary Townshend moved for leave to bring in a bill " for
removing and preventing all doubts which have arisen or might
arise, concerning the exclusive rights of the parliament and
courts of Ireland, in matters of legislation and judicature, and
for preventing any writ of error, or appeal, from any of his ma-
jesty's courts in that kingdom, from being received, heard, and
adjudged in any of his majesty's courts in that kingdom.


Mr_ Fox rose, not, he said, to oppose or censure the pre-
sent motion by any means. It might appear to some men's
minds extremely inexpedient; to others it was evidently right,
and indicated a degree of necessity of which, however, for
one he was clear to own he did not see the ground. But as
a measure, of which he did not perceive any either very good
or bad consequences, he would not give it an opposition ; at
the same time, he trusted no member would consider it as
resulting from what had passed in that House last year rela-
tive to the affairs of Ireland. Whoever would now come
forward, and arraign that wise, salutary, arid important mea-
sure, as producing grievances which now required the in-
terference of the legislature, he would deliver it as his opinion,dui not understand the business. He had every reason to be
convinced, as he certainly was in the fullest manner, that the
m


easure to which he alluded occasioned general satisfactionfl i •oughout Ireland. It was impossible but it must have
been as he had stated it. Did the requisition of Ireland extend
to a single point which had not by the British parliament


1 2




I16


IRISH JUDICATURE BILL. [Jan. 22,
been granted to them, and granted to them in the most tine,
quivocal and explicit terms ? Did not the repeal of the ac t of
the 6th of. George I. demonstrate that this country was far
from claiming any jurisdiction over them ? Was not this re,
peal most happily connected with a variety of circumstance;
which went to the same effect? Had his majesty's ministers,
for the time being, calculated erroneously, or proceeded on
these principles, without mature consideration ? Their plan
was, however, sufficiently justified by the event. For what
was the language of Ireland at that time? Did not the whole
kingdom breathe the most heart-felt gratitude ?


He was persuaded the friends of the bill proposed by the
right honourable Secretary would not, therefore, impute it
to that measure, or hold up the one as an amendment or
completion of the other. This, in his opinion, would be
acting unfairly and unjustly ; as the complaints of Ireland, so
far as they then went, had been, even in their own ideas, sa-
tisfactorily answered. It was true, a reference, by writs of
error to the Court of King's Bench in this country, was not
included in a full renunciation of her rights of supreme juris-
.
diction over Ireland, neither was it demanded of us by them,
It was very well if their desires and petitions were granted when
put. The Address, as transmitted from Ireland, fully evinced
the reception which the resolves and decrees of the British le-
gislature had met with from them. These were collected by
the parliament of Ireland, who were certainly competent judget
of their sincerity and expedience. The plain English, there-
fore, of there being still something more necessary than had
yet been done, and that the doubts and discontents of the Irish
were the grounds of the present motion, was, that we know
what the people of Ireland think, and how they feel better
than their own parliament does; and though their parliament
should think them pleased, we know they are not; they
are full of doubts and diffidence, in so much that an act Of
the British legislature is still necessary to allay their fears, and
persuade them that our intentions are sincere and liberal. lie
thought this a strange mode of reasoning, but was sorry 110
other could well account for the present motion. It was; il"
his apprehension, doing violence to human nature, as hew?:
certain cotthdence could never result from any exertion of il:.
legislature. It was, in, its own nature, voluntary. A Pr':
fusion of professions never had, and he would venture to Pr',
diet, never would, either produce or confirm it. It di d l'


o
ait


become an English parliament to interfere about the app; ,
in matters of right, by writs of error. This was, in h i' °}1;,
rdon, competent only to the parliament of Ireland, who,


1753.] TRISH JUDICATURE BILL. I1 7


the repeal of the 6th of George I. were virtually invested with
fa ll powers to regulate every domestic inconvenience accord-
ing to their own discretion, without the controul of any power
on earth. This they had actually clone, and a bill for the


ose had received the royal assent. Any thing farther didpUrp
eret:no therefore, strike him, as in the smallest degree essential


either to their general content or convenience. It was not his
design to go farther into the business. He was led thus far
fro n the tone adopted by the several honourable gentlemen
who had already spoken. Ill as some might think it became
him, he notwithstanding would hazard one piece of advice to
his majesty's ministers; this business must have an end some


tt.or


time or other; and the question now was, how should they
draw the line, and where would it be possible for them to stop ?
It was madness to imagine, that any measure whatever could
not, and would not be cavilled at. The people of Ireland,
like all other people in similar circumstances, would speculate
on public affairs. But surely all rumours were not objects of
sufficient importance to interest the attention of that House,
or when they did, no man could imagine that any statute, or
preamble to a statute, or form whatever, would totally sup-
press them. But the honourable gentleman begged he might
not be misunderstood on the other side of the water, as if he
retained any wish to support the supremacy of Great Britain.
His sentiments on that head were well known. He only
wished that ministers would come to the resolution of making
a stand somewhere, that they would take the most permanent
station, and by their conduct put it out of the power of party,
prejudice, or any other bad principle, to misrepresent their
meaning, or doubt their sincerity. Reason, equity, justice,
and expediency, were motives which could never be mistaken:
and whenever they assumed these for the grounds of their
system, it would prove a solid and effective one. But he
trusted no latent designs against the rights and liberties of anyosubjects to the crown, would. ever be seriously imputed to
a British ministry. He vowed to God he would rather re-


,


iniquish the dependence on the crown of England altogether,
than see them subjected to it by force of arms. There was a
Point, he had always seen, where we ought to have stopped
with


America. This might serve as a warning how we let
ourselves


ttnr.t tsh


down, or lessened the dignityand consequence of par-
'lament by bringing matters under its cognizance which wereb
.,eneath its attention. He was therefore not a little anxious


Tight
that an end should be put to this kind of business, and that itbe sufficiently- understood on both sides of the water,i


arliament come to letnal s-lotion hse It h
Enagl


di been
p
frequently


had
imputed to himsoht


fi al
his oprepoo-


I




17 8 3 .]


PRELIMINARY ARTICLES OF PEACE. 119


rogatives had been assumed, she certainly, and to all intents
and purposes, relinquished every shadow of jurisdiction and
supremacy. He was not, however, disposed to raise any
opposition to the motion ; only he would protest against its
drawing along with it any of the constructions he had spe-
cified. It was chiefly for this reason, and with this view, he
had made it the subject of so much remark. He agreed, that
something ought to be done with Mr. Yelverton's bill, in
order to settle the commercial points: and he concluded with
wishing his majesty's ministers Would not, in any other part
of their conduct, render themselves more reprehensible than
they had done in this.


Leave was given to bring in the bill, which afterwards passed
into a law.


ADDRESS ON THE PRELIMINARY ARTICLES OF PEACE.


February 17.
rTHE preliminary articles of peace between Great Britain and


France, and between Great Britain and Spain, were signed
at Versailles on the zoth of January ; and on the z7th copies of
the same, and of the provisional treaty with the United States of
America, were laid before both houses of parliament, and after
a short debate, ordered to be printed. Monday, the 17th of Fe-
bruary, was appointed for taking them into consideration ; and
in the intermediate time several motions we're made for such
papers and documents as might assist the House in deciding on
their merits. On the day appointed upwards of four hundred and
fifty members were assembled. After the papers were read, a
motion was made by Mr. Thomas Pitt, and seconded by Mr. Wil-
berforce, " That an humble address he presented to his majesty,
to return his majesty our most humble thanks for having been
graciously pleased to lay before us the articles of the different
treaties which his majesty has concluded, and to assure his. ma-jesty that we have considered them with the most Serious atten-
tion. To express the great satisfaction and gratitude with which
we perceive that his majesty, in the exercise of the powers which
were intrusted to him, has concluded provisional articles with the
States of North America on such principles as must, we trust,
lay the foundation of perfect reconciliation and friendship with
that country. That, impressed with these sentiments, we cannot
forbear particularly to lay before his majesty our earliest wish and
Just expectation that the several states of North America wil l , in
the amplest and most satisfactory manner, carry into execution


4


IRISII JUDICATURE BILL. [Jan. 22.


sition was rather to men than measures. He had wished to
meet that idea, as he frankly confessed himself not endowed
with such talents as were sufficiently calculated to distinguish
between men and measures. Most people, of whom he was
one, were very apt to. judge of the actions by what they knew
of the man. This business had been very fully discussed last
year, and those nearly interested had signified the most perfect
and entire acquiescence in the determination of the British
legislature. Many circumstances conspired to fill them with
confidence in those who then had the management of govern-
ment. He would declare openly, because he declared it from
the fullest conviction of the fact, that there never was a govern-
ment in Ireland conducted on more upright and popular prin-
ciples, than that conducted by the Duke of Portland. While
he was there, the country was at least free from dissention and
uproar. But now, since another government had taken place,
rumours of destruction were industriously circulated. The
terms prescribed by Ireland, and acceded to by Britain, 96
were all at once inadequate to the satisfaction of her sub-
jects. The wisest and ablest people on that side the water had
been consulted; and the ministers who were then in'the Ca-
billet, acted on their information and ideas. The honour of 1.
these gentlemen had been hitherto deemed unimpeachable
and unblemished, and vet here was a measure agitated which
supposed a material miscarriage somewhere. And the ad-
dress to the people of Ireland, was in words somewhat to this
effect: " Your friends have not by any means done by your
so liberally as we will. You think they have done you jus-
tice; but you are mistaken, and we will do what you ima-
gined they did." This, he said, was making themselves
popular at the expellee of those who had gone before them,
and, by doing more than was necessary, saying their prede-
cessors had done less. It ever had, and was still, his con-
firmed opinion, that, by repealing the statute of the 6th of
George every thing was amicably settled. ft came up, at
least, to all that he had ever conceived as incumbent on this
country to Ireland. The repeal was simple, but it was de-
cisive. It would not have been proper to have said, in so
many words, that whereas Ireland has been so long under the




j urisdiction of this country, be it therefore henceforward de-
clared independent. This was not language that would have
been relished by the people of Ireland ; nor on the part of
Great Britain was it decent to say, that whereas she had
usurped rights which were not hers, she therefore now, and
for ever, restored them to their lawful owners. But by an
actual repeal of that act of the legislature by which such pre-




J
120 PRELIMINARY ARTICLES OF PEACE. [Feb. 17.
those measures which the congress is so solemnly bound by the
treaty to recommend, in favour of such persons as have suffered
for the part they have taken in the war, a circumstance to which
we anxiously look as tending to cement that good-will and affec-
tion which we trust will uniformly mark the future intercourse
between us. And to assure his majesty, that we are sensible of'
his wise and paternal care for the welfare and happiness of his
subjects, in relieving them from a long and burthensome war, and
restoring the blessings and advantages of peace, by the preliminary
articles agreed upon with the courts of France and Spain. To
assure his majesty, that we indulge the most sanguine hopes, that
his subjects, of Great Britain and Ireland will successfully apply
their attention to cultivate and improve by every possible means
their domestic resources. That with these views we shall apply
ourselves to a revision of our commercial laws on the most.liberal
principles, and in a manner adapted to the present situation of
affairs, for the purpose of extending our trade and navigation on
the surest grounds, and diligently providing for the maintenance
of our naval power, which can alone insure the prosperity of these
kingdoms." — An amendment was moved by Lord John Caven-
dish, by leaving out from the words " and to assure his majesty,
that," in the first paragraph, to the end of the question, in order
to insert these words, " his faithful commons will proceed to con-
sider the same with that serious and full attention which a subject
of such importance to the present and future interests of his ma-
jesty's dominions deserves : that, in the mean time, they entertain
the fullest confidence in his majesty's paternal care, that he will
concert with his parliament such measures as may be expedient
for extending the commerce of his majesty's subjects. That what-
ever may be the sentiments of his faithful commons on the result
of their investigation of the terms of pacification, they beg leave
to assure his majesty of their firm and unalterable resolution to
adhere inviolably to the several articles for which the public faith
is pledged, and to maintain the blessings of peace, so necessary
to his majesty's subjects, and the general happiness .of mankind,"
instead thereof.— A second amendment was afterwards moved, 4
by Lord North, by inserting after the words " Commerce of his
majesty's subjects," these words, " And his majesty's faithful
commons feel that it would be superfluous to express to his ma-
jesty the regards clue from this nation to every description of men,
who, with the risque of their lives, and the sacrifice of their pro-
perties, have distinguished their loyalty and fidelity during a long
and calamitous war.' The original address was supported by Mr.
Secretary Townshend, Mr. Chancellor Pitt, Mr. Dundas, the So-
licitor General, and by Mr. Powys, Mr. Bankes, and sonic other
country gentlemen ; the amendments by Lord North, Mr. Fox,
Mr. Burke, Governor Johnstone, Lord Mulgrave, Sir henry
Fletcher, Mr. Sheridan, Mr. Adam, and also 'by several of the
country gentlemen.


Mr. Fox took up the consideration of the important sub-
ject at great length. His situation, he said, on that clay,


1783.] PRELIMINARY ARTICLES or PEACE. 121
was peculiarly delicate. He was supposed to be actuated by
motives of personal pique, and suspected of setting up an Op-
position to the articles of the peace on grounds of envy, of
jealousy, and of ambition. Those who knew him best would
not impute to him such motives; and for the opinion of those
who believed every calumny that was propagated against
him, he had but little concern. This, however, was not the
only delicacy of his situation. Allusions were made to tbr-
mer opinions which he had given, and assertions he had made,
in circumstances different from the present, and to which
indeed they bore not the smallest affinity. It was proclaimed,
as an unanswerable argument against every thing he could
say, " did you not some months ago, declare that almost any'
peace would be good, would be desirable, and that we must
have peace on any terms." If, said Mr. Fox, I could suffer
myself for a moment to be so far led away by conceit, and
fancy myself a man of so much importance as to excite the
jealousy of the minister, I might give car to the reports of
the day, that every measure which the minister adopted,
every plan which he formed, every opinion which he took,
and indeed every act of his administration, was calculated
and designed to embarrass me. How well might I ascribe
the present peace to this motive ! You call fbr peace, says
the noble person, you urge the necessity of peace, you insist
on peace; then peace you shall have, but such a peace, that
you shall sicken at its very name. You call for peace, and
I will give you a peace that shall make you repent the longest
clay you live, that ever you breathed a wish for peace. I
will give you a peace which shall make you and all men wish
that the war had been continued, —a peace more calamitous,
more dreadful, more ruinous than war could possibly be; and
the effects of which neither the strength, the credit :


the
commerce of the nation shall be able to support. If thi3 was
the intention of the noble person, he had succeeded to a
miracle. His work had completely answered his purpJse;
for never did I more sincerely feel, nor more sincerely lament
any advice I ever gave in my life, than the advice of getting
rid of the disastrous war in which the nation was involved.
That the minister might have other views was very probable.
That he might think his situation depended upon peace; that
lie might think there was no other way of maintaining a dis-
jointed •system, and fixing himself in a seat, not gained by
the purest means, nor supported by the firmest bottom, was
very possible; and it was also very possible that in his eager
pursuit of this object, he has overshot the mark, and neglected
to take the steps which could alone secure the end.


But it was objected to him by the learned lord advocate,




122 PRELIMINARY ARTICLES OP PEACE. [Feb. 17.
that he who had talked of having a peace in his pocket, and
who had been so confident in his declarations that peace
might certainly be obtained, ought to slew that the peace
which he projected was better than that which was procured.
In answer to this he would inform the learned lord, that he
had never said that he had a peace in his pocket. He had
averred in his place in that House, that there were persons
in this country, empowered by the congress to treat of peace
with America. The fact was so : they had made application
to noble persons, friends of his, to the Duke of Richmond,
to Lord Keppe], and to Lord John Cavendish. They had
authorised him to mention the fact in his place in that House;
and it turned-out, as he had declared, that there were per-
sons properly authorised, and anxious to treat of peace. The 4
learned lord called upon him to produce the peace which he
had projected. This was a very loud and sounding word ;
but the learned lord not being a cabinet minister, was at
liberty to hazard bold things, which, if he was a cabinet mi-
nister, he was pretty sure lie would not do. Will any one
of the king's ministers, said Mr. Fox, give me the same dial-
lenge ? Will they call upon me to produce the peace? I dare
them to do it. I challenge them to do it. They know what
it is ; they have it in the office. If it is against me, let them .41
take the advantage of it, and hold me up as a man capable
of advising my sovereign to make a worse peace, if possible,
than the present.


I now come, said Mr. Fox, to take notice of the most
heinous charge of all. I am accused of having formed a junc-
tion with a noble person, whose principles I have been in
the habit of opposing for the last seven years of my life. I do 1
not think it at all incumbent upon me to make any answer to
this charge : first, because I do not think that the persons,
who have asked the question, have any right to make the
enquiry; and secondly, because if any such junction was
formed, I see no ground for arraignment in the matter. That
any such alliance has taken place, I can by no means aver.
That I shall have the honour of concurring with the noble lord
in the blue ribbon on the present question is very certain ; and
if men of honour can meet on points of general national con-
ce•n, I see no reason for calling such a meeting an unnatural 4junction. It is neither wise nor noble to keep up animosities
for ever. It is neither just nor candid to keep up animosity
when the cause of it is no more. It is not in my nature to bear
malice, or to live in My friendships arc perpetual, my en-
mities are not so. " Amicitice sempiternce, inimicitice placabiles."
I disdain to keep alive in my bosom the enmities which I may
bear to men, when the cause of those enmities is no more.


783.] PRELIMINARY ARTICLES OF PEACE. 123'


When a man ceases to be what he was, when the opinions
which made him obnoxious are changed, he then is no more
my enemy, but my friend. The American war was the cause of
the enmity between the noble lord and myself. The American
war, and the American question is at an end. The noble lord
has profited from fatal experience. While that system was
maintained, nothing could be more asunder than the noble
lord and myself. But it is now no more; and it is therefore
wise and candid to put an end also to the ill will, the animo-
sity, the rancour, and the feuds which it occasioned. I am
free to acknowledge, that when I was the friend of the noble
lord in the blue ribbon, I found him open and sincere; when
the enemy, honourable and manly. I never had reason to
say of the noble lord in the blue ribbon, that he practised any
of those little subterfiiges, tricks, and stratagems which I
found in others; any of those behind-hand and paltry ma-
nceuv •es which destroy confidence between human beings, and
degrade the character of the statesman and the man.


So much, lie said, for the charge which had been made by
the learned lord. He should have thought it more prudent
in that learned person, before he had been so lavish in his
charges, to recollect the place from which he spoke; and that
he who was so warmly the friend of the noble lord in the blue
ribbon, and what was worse, of the system he had pursued,
was now as warmly the friend of a system very different, and
not less obnoxious. But the learned lord informed the House
that he would always support government, provided lie ap-
proved of their principles ! This he believed to be literally
the case; and that he might always support government, he
had no doubt but the learned lord would take care constantly
to approve of their principles, whatever they might be, or
whoever were the ministers.


It was also imputed to him, that he had when in office low-
ered this country before the States of Holland in a very un-
becoming manner, and that then there appeared none of those
proud thoughts, nor that high expectation which he now ex-
pressed. He had no desire, lie said, to conceal what he had
done with regard to the Dutch ; nor if he had such a desire,
would it be possible for him to gratify it. The letter which he
had written was public, and all the world knew what had been
his sentiments; he was therefore ready to acknowledge, that
as the Dutch were undoubtedly plunged into this war without
a cause, it was his idea that we ought to make them liberal of-
fers 6f peace. Such offers were made : but they not only re-
jected them, but made such haughty demands, that the policy
of the thing was changed ; and he and his friends no longer
thought them entitled to that favour and friendship which had




1.24 pRELI3IINARY ARTICLES OP PEACE. [Feb. 17.
been honestly proffered. They saw us hampered with many
enemies, and seemed desirous of taking advantage of our situ-
ation, to procure terms from us, to which they were not inti-
tied. Then they conceived that the States ought to suffer for
their want of friendship ; and that as we had been great losers
by the war, we ought to look for recompence in the posses-
sion of Trincomale, and other objects.


This was clearly his idea still; and if it was true, as it was
rumoured, that the claim was to be abandoned, he should
think nothing was wanting to make the present the most dis-
astrous and disgraceful peace, without exception, that ever
this country had made at any time. They talked of our pre-
sent circumstances, and referred to his language on a former
occasion. Were our Circumstances the same now that they
were in the month of March last? 'Would any man of com-
mon sense and common honesty say, they were the same or
similar? He averred, that that which would have been de-
sirable then, was not good now. Our state was mended; our
navy much increased ; while that of the enemy was diminished.
Our fOrce in the 'West Indies was greatly superior to theirs.
The American war, the millstone which hung about our
necks, was gone ; we had victories of the most brilliant kind ;
the nation had just emerged from its dejection; had just re-
covered its high tone of thinking and acting: every pros-*
pect was rich, and yet, just in this moment of fair expecta-
tion and honest hope, we are damned at once with a peace,
,which, perhaps, we shall never be able to recover.


Mr. Fox now went into an examination of the several lead-
ing articles of the peace. The whole was done, he said, upon
the principle of concession. It was every where concession.
if he wished to lock for reciprocal advantages, no such thing
was to he found. He said, he would not follow the course of
many of his friends, in going over minutely the ground of the
various cessions which had been made; but he declared upon
his honour, that the terms were obnoxious in the extreme;
and he pointed out a variety of the most exceptionable pas,-
sages, and laid his finger on the points which above others
were ruinous and fatal to our commerce. He concluded with
declaring his warm approbation of the amendment of his noble
friend.


'The debate lasted till near eight o'clock in the morning, when
the House divided on the original Address:


Tellers.Tellers.
1Lord Mahon S Lord Maitland i


OYEAS 1 • - z 8.—NoEs s 2211-


Air. Bankes S
t Mr. Byng


The Amendments were consequently carried by a majority of 16.


1783•] PRELIMINARY ARTICLES or PEACE.


February 19.


On the igth of February, Mr. Chancellor Pitt expressed his
anxiety to know what the mode of proceeding would be which the
honourable gentlemen opposite meant to pursue in consequence of
carrying the Amendment. In a matter of so much importance, he
believed the usage of parliament rendered it necessary that notice
should be given of the day on which it would be proceeded upon.
Lord John Cavendish said, with regard to the day of proceeding
upon the Treaties, it was perfectly indifferent to him. Let minis-
ters chuse their own day, and that should be his. An early day
must, however, be taken, and the consideration must be seriously
gone into, when such parts as called for condemnation, in all pro-
bability, would receive it. Mr. Secretary Townshend said, as long as
he felt himself supported, and his public conduct approved by such
a set of respectable and independent gentlemen as had stood for-
ward on Monday last, and voted with him, he was perfectly indif-
ferent what other combination of parties, what new junction of bo-
dies of men opposed him. It was by that worthy description of
characters, the country gentlemen, that he wished his conduct to
be judged; by men connected with no party ; men who followed
the whistling of no name ; men who had sense and spirit to judge
for themselves, and did not pin their faith on the sleeves of
others : to such men's decisions he ever should bow with reve-
rence ; and the support of such men he ever should consider as his
highest honour. If he must fall, if he must be condemned, let
such men try his cause, and he was sure he should obtainjustice.
He was ready to meet any motion the gentlemen opposite to him
intended to make, and the sooner they brought it forward the
better.


Mr. Fox declared he was perfectly astonished at his right
honourable friend's language. It was the first time he had
ever heard a gentleman's conduct was less praise-worthy, be-
cause that gentleman acted in concert with others. This doc-
trine was not only new to him, but the more extraordinary
considering from whom it came. Had his right honourable
friend forgot for how many years they had acted together with
a large party connected upon public principle? Had he to-
tally lost the recollection how often they had in that House
fought, and how often they had conquered, when acting in
concert ? Had he always entertained the same sentiments as
those he had just delivered ? Did he think his conduct for-
merly less honourable than he conceived his conduct of late to
have been? Had the many years they had acted together in
concert proved the least comfortable of his life ? Did he feel
himself more happy and more easy where he now sat? Or,
what was infinitely of higher importance, did he imagine his




I26 RESOLUTIONS OP CENSURE
[Feb. z r. 1783.] ON THE TERMS OF THE PEACE. 127


country derived more advantages from his services in his present
situation, than they had reaped from his former parliamentary
conduct ? These were questions, Mr. Fox said, that naturally
occurred to his mind ; to say nothing of the vulgar and invi-
dious stile of argument, to which his right honourable friend
had adverted ; an evident proof to him, that when men had
been baffled on one important point, they would have recourse
to any pretext, to comfort and save themselves from shame.
But if it was necessary to follow the example, it would be easy
for him to prove that the Address the House had voted, had
been supported by as many gentlemen of the description just
mentioned, as had voted the other way ; he disdained how-
ever all such vulgar and invidious distinctions, and-was free
to own, that there were on the other side the House many
gentlemen of the highest respectability, whose characters he




admired, and whose friendship he had thought it an honour
to cultivate, but who nevertheless differed extremely from him
upon political subjects. Let gentlemen exercise the freedom
of their minds ; let them judge for themselves : he desired only
to be tried by his public conduct, but he never would admit
that any man's voting with a body, united upon principle,
was a matter of reproach,


LORD JOHN CAVENDISH'S RESOLUTIONS OP CENSURE ON THE
TERMS or THE PEACE.


_February 2 I .


THIS being the day fixed for taking into further considerationthe articles of peace, Lord John Cavendish moved the follow-
ing resolutions:


r. That, in consideration of the public faith, which ought to
be preserved inviolable, this House will support his majesty, in ren-
dering firm and permanent, the peace to be conducted definitively,
in consequence of the provisional treaty and preliminary articles,
which have been laid before the House. 2. That this House will,
in concurrence with his majesty's paternal regard for his people,
employ its best endeavours to improve the blessings of peace, to the
advantage of his crown and subjects. 3 . That his majesty, in ac-
knowledging the independence of the United States of America,
has acted as the circumstances of affairs indispensably required,
and in conformity to the sense of parliament. 4. That the con-
cessions made to the adversaries of Great Britain, by the said
provisional treaty and preliminary articles, are greater ,than they


II


were entitled to, either from the actual situation of their respective
possessions, or from their comparative strength." The two first
resolutions were agreed to without any opposition. On the third
a short debate took place, occasioned by doubts having arisen in
the minds of several members, respecting the nature of the power
vested in the king, by which he had acknowledged the indepen-
dence of the United States. It was demanded, whether it was done
by virtue of his royal prerogative, or by powers granted by statute ;
and, if the latter, by what statute ? In answer to these questions,
the gentlemen of the long robe were unanimously of opinion, that
the statute passed last year, to enable the king to make a peace or
truce with the colonies in North America, any law, statute, matter,
or thing to the contrary notwithstanding, gave him full power to
recognize their independence ; though such words had not been
inserted in the act, for reasons sufficiently obvious. Other mem-
bers, who agreed with them in opinion as far as it respected the ac-
knowledgment of independence, did not think the statute in ques-
tion granted him any authority to cede to them any part of the pro-
vince of Canada and Nova Scotia. With respect to the powers of
the prerogative, Mr. Wallace and Mr. Lee maintained that the king
could not abdicate a part of his sovereignty, or declare any number
of his subjects free from obedience to the laws in being. The con-
trary was asserted by the attorney general; and each party pledged
himself, if the matter should come regularly into discussion, to make
good his opinion. A challenge to the same effect had passed in the
House of Peers between Lord Loughborough and the Lord Chan-
cellor. At length it was proposed to alter the Resolution into the
following form : " That his majesty, in acknowledging the inde-
pendence of the United States of America, by virtue of the powers
vested in him by an act of the last session of parliament, to enable
his majesty to conclude a peace or truce, &c. has acted, &c."
when it passed without a division :—The fourth Resolution occa-
sioned a long and vehement debate, in which the same ground was
gone over as on the r 7th.


Mr. Fox said:—
I rise, Sir, merely to answer a few observations that have


dropped in the course of this debate, in which I cannot but
consider that the facts have been misconceived, and the argu-
ments deduced from those facts totally misapplied and un-
firirly In what I have to say on these particular
points, I shall not trespass long on the patience and attention
of the House at this late stage of the debate. I should have
spoken before, had I not wished to have heard the general
opinion of the House on this question, before I presumed to
give my sentiments upon it.


The argument which has been used by some honourable
gentlemen on the other side of the House against the fourth
Resolution moved by my noble friend, appears to me the most
preposterous and chimerical that was ever offered. An


1




128 RESOLUTIONS OF CENSURE [Feb. 21,


honourable gentleman (Mr. Macdonald) has said, that the
House coming to a vote of disapprobation on the prelimina-
ries and provisional treaty, will be construed by our enemies
as an absolute intention of parliament not to abide by the
articles they contained. The honourable gentleman says that
it will be tantamount to a declaration of recommencing the
war. Is it then to be understood, that we are inimical to the
peace, because on the most deliberate consideration of its
articles, we arc obliged to give our candid opinions, that it is
not such a peace as we might reasonably have expected from
the relative situations of Groat Britain with France and Spain?.
I think there cannot be a greater assurance of our pacific
intention than what is conveyed in the principles of this fourth
resolution, as it is connected with that resolution wherein we
have pledged ourselves to give every stability and permanency
to the peace: for, notwithstanding the peace is, perhaps, the
worst that could possibly have been framed for the real in-
terests of this nation, yet we have resolved to preserve inviolate
the public faith which has been pledged in this negociation.
If there is a possibility of giving an assurance of our inclina-
tions for peace, it cannot be so well conveyed as in the letter
and spirit of this resolution. In the moment that we find the
peace so justly deserving of the general reprobation it has re-
ceived, we pledge ourselves to see every iota of it hailed. In
my opinion, the first resolution would not be so strongly ex-
pressive of our inclination to cultivate the friendship, confi-
dence, and intercourse with our late enemies, were it not fol-
lowed by expressing thus the sense we have of the peace being
so inadequate to what our real and relative situation might
have expected. Thus must France, Spain, and America, con-
sider, that we are determined for peace, indeed, when we can
so solemnly pledge ourselves to ratify and validate a negotiation
wherein. we find such waste of our interests and possessions.
So that every argument upon this principle is the most vague,
delusive, and nugatory, that it is possible for human reason to
conceive. • It is an absurdity too enormous for common sense
to countenance.•


But if this resolution was not so immediately necessary for
the establishing foreign confidence, it is absolutely indispensi-
ble for preserving internal consistency. Did we not in our
vote of Monday last imply, that we would give an opinion
upon the preliminaries and provisional treaty which have been
laid before us? WI): proceed to a consideration of these
papers, if the conside r ation of them must pass without an
opinion ? It is mocking the general business of parliament, to
presume that we should meet for the purpose of enquiring in-
to these papers, without giving our opinion as the result of


4


1783.] ON THE TERMS OF THE PEACE. 129


the enquiry. It is beneath farce itself, to suppose, that we
can abstract the idea of giving an opinion from having exer-
cised our judgments. These papers have been the subject
of very serious and ample consideration. We have all form-
ed an opinion. And, although I will not say every person
in this House has this one opinion, yet I believe the excep-
t ions are very few, indeed, from those who are not convinced
of this peace being most inconsiderate, improvident, and in-
►dequate to the real and relative interests of the kingdom.
If such is the general opinion, why should it not be declared ?
Have we not pledged ourselves to give those sentiments which
have arisen from the most serious consideration ? If gentlemen
mean by their opposition to this resolution, that, from the
papers we have seen, our opinions are imperfect, and therefore
incompetent to pass any vote that may involve in it a cen-
sure on the noble lord at the head of the administration, why
arc not those papers laid before us which might alter our
opinions? The papers have been asked for, and, in my
opinion, improperly. If this was not my opinion, I should
not hesitate to vote for every paper which contained the least
matter of information on the subject. But when I consider
how impossible it is for me to judge what papers might come
before the public, I cannot but approve of their not being call-
ed for. Were I to call for these papers, I might ask for such
as might prove very dangerous to the interests of the country.
The minister should produce such papers as he knows not to
he dangerous; such as are proper to meet the public eye, and
will tend to clear the characters concerned in this peace
from the censure they must otherwise sustain ; but if these
papers are withheld, and there are a sufficient number already
on the table to afford just ground this resolution, it can
only be deferred with an intention of its being destroyed ; so
that I conceive this argument as only meant to impede the
performance of that promise which we have given to the pub-
lic. We cannot, if we would, dispense with this resolution,
consistently with our own honour, and the duty we owe the
people.


Then why is it urged, that this resolution is merely brought
forward as a contest for power? Is it a contest for power,
that we appear desirous of performing our engagements with
the nation ? Can it be construed into a contest for power in
the noble lord who brings forward this resolution ? Is my noble
friend to be considered ambitious for power, who has always
been known to avoid rather than to court official employment?
Surely no ! If Ile has a blemish to foil his.eminent virtues, it is
that of receding from those places where his ability and inte-
grity might promote the interests of his country. I am certain


VOL. 11.




130 ItESOLTJTIONS Or CENSURE [Feb. 21„
there is not a gentleman in this House, possessing the smallest
degree of candour, who can attribute such a base and pitiful
motive to the noble lord. Were not the insinuation as per-
verse as it is contemptible, the character of my noble friend
would have saved his resolution from such a paltry and disin-
genuous aspersion. But it is trifling with the time and atten- .
bon of the House, to give this assertion a serious reply. All
I shall say upon this part of the subject is, that the purpose
for which it is hazarded can in no manner be successful. If it
is meant to save the first lord of the treasury from the disgrace
of his measures, there needs not this resolution to pass while
the memory of the peace on your table remains in the minds of
the people. Or if it supposes, that putting aside this resolu-
tion will be the means of preserving the present system, I trust
that it is too generally known in this House, that this resolu-
tion is not necessary to destroy an administration which is al-
ready fallen. And here I must express my regret for my ho-
nourable friend below (Sir Cecil Wray) having seen any
thing in our conduct this evening to have excited in him
sentiments and expressions that I trust his reflection will con-
demn. I lament the loss of his confidence, because he pos-
sesses my friendship; but I can only attribute it to a total mis-
understanding of the principle of this resolution ; otherwise I
am confident he would never have thus sounded the alarum of
independency, and have quitted that cable of friendship which 1
should have hoped would have never been parted : so that I will
not condemn his behaviour, although I must lament the loss
of his approbation. I am assured of the honesty of his inten-
tion, while I question the propriety of his conduct. What he
has said, goes against the forming of any administration ; and
it shews, that he has not been much used to the making of
ministers.


An honourable gentleman on the other side of the House,
(Mr. Powys) thought proper to censure the coalition of parties
in a former debate. Indeed, he has mentioned them again in
the present; but I trust this censure is undeserved. What-
ever coalition of parties there may be, has arisen from the
necessity of men uniting for the purpose of preserving the
constitution of the country inviolate from the attack of an in-
dividual, who has had the temerity to act more from his own
dictates, than from the principles of the constitution, or th .
necessities of the country. If ever the situation of a country
required a coalition of parties that could preserve the vigour
of the state from debility, it is that of the present. I trust
there can be no necessity for argument to enforce this, while
those preliminaries, and that provisional treaty, lie on your
table. I am free to boast of being connected, with a set of


12


1783.] ON THE TERMS OF THE PEACE. 131
men, whose principles are the basis on which the state has for
a long time past been preserved from absolute destruction. It
is to the virtues of these men that I have surrendered my pri-
vate opinions and inclinations. It is thus only that I could
prevent myself from falling into those errors which the preju-
dices, passions, and perplexities of human nature, will, at times,
occasion. And, thus I have been always answerable to my
country for my conduct ; for in every public transaction I have
thought it most safe to resign my private opinion, when I
found it departing from the general opinion, of those with whom
I was connected by friendship, confidence, and veneration.
Those whose virtues claimed my respect, and whose abilities
my admiration, could not but prove the best directors of a
conduct, which, alone, might fall by its temerity, or be lost
by temptation.


And now I must beg leave to say a few words on what I
feel of the most serious nature, as far as it relates to the com-
placency of my own feelings. The sentiments which have
fallen from gentlemen, of whom I had flattered myself to
have possessed the friendship and good opinion, have occa-
sioned in me a retrospect of my past conduct. I have re-
viewed my conduct with a severity of retrospect, that I should
scarcely have endured, had it not been from a conviction that
I really committed a fault which merited the most painful of
all feelings—that of losing the support and approbation of
men, whose virtues I reverence, and whose good opinions it
is my greatest pride and happiness to cultivate. But, however
painful this severity of retrospect may have proved, I find it
amply compensated in the pleasure every honest mind feels,
when it can bear testimony to the purity and consistency of its
intentions. As no inquisition can be so formidable to sensi-
bility as that which our own reflection holds on our actions,
the result of my enquiry is attended with an increase of satis-
fitetion proportionate to the pain I felt for its necessity, and
fear, lest I should find myself deserving of what I have this
night so painfully experienced : I mean the forfeiture of
friendship, support, and confidence, where I have always sought
its enjoyment. It is only from such characters .


as have my es-
teem, that I have sought support and connection. However, I
find myself this evening deserted by those whom I- thought
never to have given a pretence for losing their estimation ; and
!he regret I experience on the occasion would be insupportable
indeed, were it not from a consciousness of its being unde-
served. And this conviction is in a great measure confirmed
by what I have seen since I receded from that administration,
in which there was no principle of stability and connection to.
Support it, with honour to itself and welfare to the people.,


DC 2




13 2 At SOLUTIONS OF CENSURE [Feb. 21.


That we were justified in our receding from such an adminis-.
tration, has been daily evinced by those who have since fol-
lowed our example. Have not those, who were deluded by
pretence, not confirmed by principle to take share with a man
whom they now see the absolute necessity of deserting, proved
the necessity of our conduct ? It can be no small satisthction
to me to see those follow my conduct, whom, indeed, I could
rather have chosen to follow. Can there be a greater demon-
stration of the propriety of our conduct, than seeing others re-
ceding one by one from a connection which has betrayed every
principle on which their confidence was founded ?


But while I produce these as indisputable arguments in fa-
vour of the propriety of our resignation, and opposing the
measures which have been since pursued to the disgrace and
injury of the country, I shall not disavow my having an
ambition to hold such a situation in office, as may enable me
to promote the interest of my country. I will confess, that
am desirous of enjoying an eminence which must flatter my
ambition, promote my convenience, and enable me to exert
myself in my country's service; and in confessing this desire, I
trust that it cannot be termed presumption. I flatter myself that.
I am not inadequate to the importance-of such a situation ; nor
do I think that I gave, during the short time I held a respec-
table place in administration, any reason why I should not
offer myself a candidate for a share in that new arrangement
which the late neglectful, not to give a worse epithet, conduct
of the first lord of the treasury has rendered indispensible.
But this is a subject which I think more prudent to wave,
than to enforce by adducing arguments, or referring to in-
stances.


I shall now take an opportunity of observing some particu-
lars, in answer to what has fallen from an honourable member
(Mr. Keith Stewart) relative to the state of our navy not being
such as to countenance the continuance of the war. He says,
that the accounts of the relative state of our navy are untrue;
it neither was, nor is in that condition in which it has been
represented. But this assertion does not go so far against
our disapprobation as some other arguments that were made
in this and the Upper House in the course of last Monday's de-
bate. It was then positively asserted, that the real state of
our navy was represented far superior to its actual condition;
that it was by no means adequate to the services to which it
was allotted in its several destinations ; that some ships were
foul, others rotten, and others not stored. But these are in-
stances that can be adduced in every fleet; they are as equally
applicable to our enemies as to ourselves. But the candid and
fair statement of the subject would he this. Can it be proved


1783.] ON THE TERMS OF THE PEACE. 133
that our navy was inadequate to any service on which it was
dispatched ? Has there been any one offensive or defensive
measure declined in consequence of our navy being incompe-
tent to. the duty ? If this can be proved., then 1 shall most
chearfully consent to lose this resolution. I will even join
those who are now so forward in the praises of a peace, which,
to every man of common sense, is the most disgraceful and dis-
advantageous of any this country can produce. I will even
join them in their loudest praises. There is nothing their
enthusiasm can suggest in its favour, but I will most readily
subscribe to. But while I am confident that no-such proof
can be brought, I must contend for the necessity and pro-
priety of this resolution.


And now permit me to mention, that this assertion is not
only destitute of evidence and veracity, but even of common
gratitude and candour. It has originated from those who
are known to be under the greatest obligations to that noble
and honourable character they are thus endeavouring to de-
preciate. But not to say any thing farther on this disagree-
able part of the subject, has it the least support from the com-
parison of facts and circumstances ? Would the noble lord
(Keppel) have been so ready to resign his place because he
disapproved of the peace, had he been sensible of our naval
inability for war? Is he to be considered so much an ad-
vocate for war, that he would absolutely risque his own cha-
racter to imputation, if not merited disgrace and dishonour?
Surely nothing can demonstrate the falsity and malice of this
assertion so incontrovertibly, as the first lord of the ad-
miralty having resigned his employment. Had he not been
confident of the condition of the fleet being adequate to every
relative service of war, he would have been sensible of the
impropriety of opposing a peace. He must have seen the
folly and danger of such a conduct, from the knowledge of
the destruction it might bring on the country, and the dis-
grace it would, consequently, bring upon himself. But, how-
ever, not to adduce any more arguments to controvert an as-
sertion that has no other foundation than error, malice, and
ingratitude, I shall proceed to state some facts which prove
the state of our navy being in a condition sufficiently power-
ful for any relative operation in war. It will prove that the
first lord of the admiralty, I mean my noble friend, had just
reason for his confidence in its competency. Whatever in-
jorrnation the honourable member (Mr. Keith Stewart) may
have received respecting the superior state of our enemies
power, I will pledge myself to produce authentic and. indis-
putable evidence, that in the course of last year our navy in-
creased seventeen in its number, while that of France had suf-


K 3




1 34


BEsOLUTIONS OP CENSURE [Feb. 21.


fered a diminution of thirteen. Admiral Pigot would have
had by this time fifty-four sail of the line in the West Indies.
This would have been such a force for every defensive and
offensive purpose, as the situation of those seas might have
required or permitted. We might then have been perfectly
at ease with regard to the safety of those possessions, especi-
ally when the state of the Spanish navy was considered, and
that we had also remaining at home thirty-four ships of the
line. If such is the situation of our navy, as I pledge my-
self to prove, can there be a pretence for vindicating the ne-
cessity of those enormous cessions which lie before us on the
table?


I might, on this occasion, repeat the arguments which
have been already adduced to show the little attention which
has been paid to the interest and feelings of the country in
this negociation. But this would be only engaging the
attention of the House to what they must have already
formed an opinion on, in consequence of the able argu-
ments that have been offered upon the consideration of
the preliminaries and provisional treaty. However, I
must observe that, in this negociation, our enemies have
exacted our possessions, without paying that tenderness to our
feelings which they have always affected to pay in similar ne-
gociations. There does not appear in this negociation the
least circumstance to flatter our sacrifice of honour as well as
possession. The papers before us bear too evident signs
of the disregard and negligence with which they have been
settled. But while they contain every mark of humility, igno-
miny, and disadvantage to this country, they evidently chew
the triumph and superiority of our enemies. For prima fizcie,
we find every advantage given to our enemies, and not one
solid and real advantage retained or restored to ourselves.
We have granted to the Americans the privilege of fishing
on the only part of Newfoundland, which is left us by our
cession to France. It true they are excluded from the
privilege of drying their fish on our territories; but this is
merely a negative advantage; it includes no positive in-
terest: for since France has a privilege of part of this island,
it will be very easy for America to fish with us, and dry
them, by permission, on French territories. Thus it is
evident, that our fishery, so much boasted, in Newfound-
land is, in a manner annihilated ; not to mention the MI-
pOlicy of ceding St. Pierre and Miquelon, all the posses-
sions that we have reserved are only such as tend to createjealousies which may be pretences for war at a future period.
But to take a general view of this peace, we find it contains
a sacrifice of our chief possessions in America,' Africa, and


1783.] ON THE TERMS OF THE PEACE, I3;


Asia. By the boundaries which have been so carelessly pre-
scribed, we have excluded ourselves from the Mississippi ;
so that we only retain the name, without being able to enjoy
its possession. We have lost West Florida, and ceded the
East to compleat our loss of American territory. And, in
this last cession, in a treaty for peace, we have given Spain
the greatest temptation for war. We have resigned to them
those advantages which were always their annoyance and ter-
ror. In this as well as in every other part of this negocia-
tion, that first principle of treaty has been totally disregarded.
The retention of places, the relative power of which is to
check the operations of war, is the best security for the pre-
servation of peace. In the West Indies we have restored the
Island of St. Lucia, besides ceding and guaranteeing the Island
of Tobago; but as a compensation for this latter cession, we
have the Islands of Nevis and Montserrat; therefore what has
been restored to us by France in the \Vest Indies, cannot at
all be considered as a compensation for St. Lucia. We may
be said to have only for restoring this invaluable island to the
French, Grenada, the Grenadines, St. Vincent, and Dominica.
And for all our acknowledgments, cessions, and restorations
in America, we are only possessed of the Bahamas. In Africa
we have ceded and guaranteed to France the river Senegal
and all its dependencies, with the forts of St. Louis, Podor,
Galam, Arguin, and Portendie; and to compleat this Afri-
can cession, we have engaged to restore the island of Goree.
And in return for all the forts, the river Senegal with de-
pendencies, and Goree, France has only guaranteed to us
Fort James and the river Gambia. The dependencies of
the river Gambia are to be understood as included in this
guarantee, where we have been too careless to have them
specified in the same manner as in our cession to France.
In Asia we are engaged to restore France all the establish-
ments which belonged to them, at the commencement of the
war, on the coast of Orixa, and in Bengal: besides granting
them the liberty of surrounding Chandernagore, with a ditch
for draining the waters. We are likewise engaged to take
such measures as shall secure to the subjects of France, in
that part of India, and on the coast of Orixa, Coromandel,
and Malabar, a safe, free, and independent trade. In the
next article, we restore Pondicherry and Karical. We like-
wise procure as a dependency to this restoration the two dis-
tricts of Valanour, Bahour, and the four Magans. France
also enters again into the possession of Mahe and the Comp-
Lou' at Surat. In Asia, all this we grant without the least
cession received from France; and, notwithstanding, all this
profusion of liberality is incompetent to preserve the peace


I


4




136 RESOLUTIONS OF CENSURE
[Feb. 21.


from suspension and interruption. By the sixteenth article
we are exposed to the continuance of the war as much as if
we had not restored an inch of right, privilege, or possession
in those parts to France. In Europe we have consented to
the abrogation and suppression of all the - articles relative to
Dunkirk, from the treaty of Utrecht, in 1713, to this period
inclusively. This has been entered upon without the least
pretence or appearance of equivalent. From this real state
of the negociation, can we have a possibility of withholding
our assent to this resolution ? Are not all these American,
African, Asian, and European cessions, sufficient evidence that
the peace is not so favourable to the interests of the kingdom,
as our relative state and strength required ? We may repre-
sent our own debility, to prove the necessity of a peace.
But, in our approbation of this peace, it must be demon-
strated, that from our relative debility a better peace we could
neither expect nor obtain. If our finances were straitened,
it remains to be proved, that the finances of our enemies were
not equally exhausted. Do we not know that France never
supported a war with more difficulty; that Spain was nearly
in a state of national bankruptcy; and that America was
in state of national poverty ? But this last I adduce not as
an instance of the policy of the American war. I am con-
vinced that, although she was without resource, yet her una-
nimity, her enthusiasm in the cause of her independence,
would be sufficient to repel the united forces of all Europe.


It was from this opinion, that I have always reprobated a
war that was as ridiculous in its object as it was unjust in its
principle. However, this is by no means a palliative foe
this enormous cession for which this peace has been obtained.
For, although it might be impossible to have conquered
America, yet her being destitute of resource gave us a great
advantage, when considered relatively, as she was in alliance
with France and Spain. From this knowledge, we might
have seen the policy and power of withdrawing our troops
from America, had the war necessarily continued. lvVe might
have directed them against France and Spain as an accession
of strength, without fearing its being counterbalanced ley any
assistance they could derive from _America. Without re-
source for her own exigencies, she could have no power of
granting subsidies to them. All the assistance which she might
have lent to them could be only a few troops, that, in fact,
could prove of no great advantage, while we had the policy
to confine ourselves to the object of a naval war. It is,
therefore, most clearly apparent, that we had every right to,,
expect a more advantageous peace than what is under o
consideration.


1783.] ON THE TERMS OF THE PEACE. 137


_And, here, Sir, I shall take notice of an argument offered
by an honourable gentleman, to prove that this peace is, not-
withstanding every evidence to the contrary that has been
produced, deserving of our approbation : nay, that it has
even received virtually, if not positively, our applause; for
the honourable gentleman says, that in our second resolution,
we have pledged our endeavours to cultivate the blessings of
that peace, which we mean, by this fourth resolution, to cen-
sure and condemn. Surely, said he, this peace must have
received our approbation, when we have acknowledged that
it has blessings, which we are pledged to cultivate; and that
it is, likewise, self-evident, that a peace must deserve our ap-
probation, to which the word blessing can, with any pro-
priety, be annexed. I wish the honourable gentleman had
annexed the word blessings to this peace with the least pro-
priety'. But he will pardon me in saying, that he misrepre-
sents the words and meaning of this second resolution. The
word blessings is connected with the general idea and mean-
ing of a peace. My noble friend who moved the resolution,
could never have so much mistaken this peace, as to have
annexed blessings as its consequence. Let the honourable
gentleman attend to the words of the resolution, and he will
find his position has been very unfairly stated and errone-
ously conceived. He will find the words are, 64 the blessings
of peace," and riot of this peace. But in regard to the real
intention of thus pledging ourselves to cultivate the blessings
of peace, it is only a necessary assurance of our wishes and
endeavours to render it reciprocally advantageous, by which.
means its permanency can only be preserved. It is a pledge
that we mean to enter upon the consideration of our com-
mercial system, in order to make such regulations as the
alteration of our empire, and the creation of the states, may
require: for it is only by such a resolution that we can pal-
liate the neglect of administration, in having made this peace,
without having to produce the least sign, intention, or ap-
pearance, of a commercial plan adapted to the altered in-
terests of the empire. It is thus that we can only assure
France, Spain, and America, of our sincerity to keep in-
violate the public faith, -which is pledged in the preliminaries
and provisional treaty. And here I cannot avoid observing
the attempt to impose this peace upon our credulity and judg-
ment, as being negociated on the principle of the uti possidelis.
-lad this really been the principle of its negociation, France


would neither have been in possession of the Newfoundland
fishery, nor would she have had a foot of East Indian ter-
ritory. But, indeed, the absurdity of such a pretence is evi-
dent,: from the situation of the country being represented as




138 RESOLUTIONS OF CENSURE [Feb. 2r.
totally different from what is the foundation of the uti possi-
'detis. And here I must state the two principles which direct
every negociation. The one is the uti possidetis; the other,
reciprocal and general restitution. Reciprocal and general
restitution directs and governs a negociation for peace, when
the belligerent powers have equal desire and reason for con-
cluding the war. It is then they find it their interest to re-
instate each other reciprocally in the possessions they have
lost. The uti possidetis is the-principle of negociation when
either of the belligerent powers. are the conquerors. It is
then the vanquished are obliged to submit to the loss of their
possessions. As they have not power, they assume not the
pretence of demanding restitution. They are, therefore, con-
tent to purchase peace with the loss of what their enemy has
taken, because they know their imbecility to support war.
But in the present negociation we have all the dishonour of
the uti possidetis were it against us, and all the disadvantage
of partial, not reciprocal restitution. To consider the peace
in a relative point of view, we shall find that France retains
what she has taken from us, and receives a general restitution
of all we have taken from her. Never was a peace so negli-
gently, disgracefully, and injuriously concluded for this nation.
Surely, nothing can account for it so clearly as a retrospect
On the minister's conduct and consequence with whom our
enemies were to negotiate. It is evident our enemies were
sensible of his not having that support and confidence which
was necessary to invigorate the arm of war against them.
They were sensible, that he was conscious of his own tot-
tering power, and, therefore, they, with their usual sagacity
and penetration, perceived it was the happy moment for their
demands and our concessions. It is thus that we learn the
foreign character and estimation of the minister. The pre-
liminaries and provisional treaty is a foreign lesson to teach
us domestic caution and information. •


It has been urged as a mark of our weakness, that the ge-
neral system of the war has been more of a defensive than
offensive nature. Happy am I to find we have not waged a
general offensive war, according to the system on which the
war was conducted. The view of the peace before me is
sufficient reason for my approving the policy and necessity of
our war being generally defensive: for had we waged offen-
sive war with success against forts, garrisons, and islands, we
should only have had the more to have returned at the nego-
tiation for peace. Could we have confined our operations
against ships instead of forts, garrisons, districts, and islands,
then we should have retained whatever we might have had
the good fortune to have taken. These would have been real


I 783.3 ON THE TERMS OF THE PEACE.


and permanent acquisitions. They would not have lain
within the minister's power of restoring. Since I see such
a general cession and restoration of what had cost the coun-
try so much blood and treasure to retain and possess, I can-
not but lament the offensive war we have waged. Had we
taken less, less had there been to have restored. So that at
least we should have saved much disgrace in proportion as
the articles would have contained a less appearance of ces-
sion and restoration. Who that views the preliminaries
and provisional treaty will not blush for the ignominy of the
national character it will hand down to posterity ! Who
could have supposed, that such a treaty would have been
concluded in 1783, as the consequence of our successes in
the year 1782 !


And now I would beg leave to say a few words in answer
to what has fallen from an honourable baronet (Sir Edward
Astley), respecting two pensions that were granted by the
late first lord of the treasury : I mean the Marquis of Rock-
ingham. Happy am I that such an opportunity is given me
of vindicating his memory from any aspersion which might
otherwise adhere to it. The honourable baronet has been
pleased to say, that we had not enquired into those shainefill,
extravagant, and unmerited pensions which were granted by
the administration we succeeded, because we had committed
the same lavishment of the public money ourselves. As far
as the pensions to which he alludes relate to my conduct,
I have only to answer, they were granted without my appro-
bation; for I am free to confess, that I did not altogether
approve of the necessity or the principle of these pensions:
but although they might not have entirely my consent, yet.
the accusation comes rather improperly, as a reflection against
our conduct. The pensions were not granted to those who
merited our regard, either from attachment, principle, or
service in our interest. We granted them to the friends and
adherents of those who were known to profess sentiments
totally distinct from what we had adopted. But humanity
and liberality were the characteristic features of the de-
ceased marquis's disposition. He was of a temper too dis-
interested to reward his Own adherents with such pecuniary
gratuities. It was his principle, to retain the attachment of
his friends, not by mercenary benefits, but by his conduct
commanding their affection : and merit and necessity, even
In those who were inimical to himself and connections, had
always a claim to his-assistance. It was by this irresistible
conduct that he conciliated his enemies and retained his
friends. It was not his.object in possessing power, to enrich
mercenary dependents, at the expellee of the public. He




1 40 RESOLUTIONS OF CENSURE [Feb. 21.
took power, not for plundering, but preserving and promot-
ing the properties and privileges of the people. So that the
honourable baronet has with great impropriety adverted to
these pensions, as an instance of corruption in one of the
most able and virtuous ministers that ever did or ever will
direct a state.


It has been mentioned as an argument against the present
resolution, that the decision to which we came last Tuesday
morning, has been the cause of the ambassadors now in town
delaying the conclusion of the treaty. It is said, that they
have expressed a shyness to conclude what remains to perfect.
the negotiation, alledging, that they perceive from the de-
termination of the House,' their disinclination to fulfil the
articles; and that we have only entered upon this negotiation,
merely as a cessation of hostilities. But, instead of thus un-
candidly stating such a position, would it not have'been more
consistent with the truth, to have attributed this conduct to
their diffidence in the administration, possessing long enough
the power of compleating the negotiation. Is it not more
wise and prudent in them, to suspend their commissions for
treaty until they sec an administration so firmly established,
as may give a due, and proper validity to the negotiation?
It would he very hasty and premature conduct in them, to
express any eagerness at this momentf vicissitude, to finish
the ratification.


An honourable gentleman took occasion in a former debate
to censure a coalition of parties. How far this censure was
proper, the necessities of a coalition of every party that would
Join to destroy that party which has been so destructive to
the country will discover. But were there not this necessity
for coalition, 1 cannot see the propriety of censuring our ac-
cepting of the support, and according with the sentiments of
the noble lord, (North). It is true, there was a period in
which I have treated the conduct of the noble lord with that
disapprobation which I should again use on the same occasion :
but the cause of this disapprobation is now removed. The
Americans are no ‘v independent. We have no longer a pre-
tence nor inclination for continuing the war which I felt the
necessity of reprobating. The cause of disunion no longer
subsists; and the situation of the country calls loudly for then4
strongest coalition, which may reinstate the people in their
rights, privileges, and possessions. We have a minister, who
is in his nature, habitudes, and principles, an enemy to the
privileges of the people. And as I am convinced, that no
system can exist which is not supported by a fair, consistent,
and established unanimity, I am happy to join with any
party which I think has the abilities and .intentions of pro,


178•] ON THE TERMS OF TILE PEACE. i4I-


inoting the general welfare by a permanent union. This
administration has been destroyed through want of confidence.
It is, therefore, the greatest absurdity to think of preserving
the station of a man who is unsupported by every friend and
advocate for the constitution. I believe there is scarcely an
individual in this House, who would give his unbiassed sup-
port to the present premier. Is there any one who could
think of supporting a man who has in every possible manner
trifled away the general, absolute, and relative interests of the
country? Has he riot, as we have too evidently seen, made
concessions in every part of the globe without the least pre-
tence of equivalent? Then let it not be said, that such a com-
bination against a minister is unconstitutional: and while it
is acknowledged, that the king by his prerogative possesses
the right of ministerial appointment, let it be remembered,
that the people can by their privilege annul that appointment.
It is only thus, that we can derive the means of restoring the
abused confidence of the people. It is only coalition that can
restore the shattered system of administration to its proper
tone of vigorous exertion. By this means we shall regain-the
lost confidence of the people: and it is only that confidence
that can give effect to the springs of government. I trust
there is now a prospect of reviving and establishing the system
of which I have so long been proud of considering myself a
member. There is now, I trust, a certainty of the present
nugatory and shattered system being repaired, and rendered
sufficiently strong to bear the interests of the people. Now
the sense of the nation is awake to conviction. They will no
longer lend their assent to the destruction of their Own wel-
fare. The obnoxious part of administration must recede
froth the countenance of his sovereign. He has neither the .
sanction of people or parliament, or, indeed, his wonted col-
leagues. So that froth these considerations, I have the fullest
assurances of seeing the interests of the nation once more
placed on that foundation which can only save it from
destruction.


It is only from the coalition of parties, for the honest pur-
pose of opposing measures so destructive to the interests of
the country, that the spirit of constitutional power can ever
be restored to its former vigour. It becomes men to forget
private resentments, when the cause of the nation calls so
immediately for public unanimity. Besides, is it not an indi-
cation of our principles having been directed for this one end,
the general good, although we have pursued different means
for its acquisition ? And as the cause of the country may have
induced that personal asperity, which seemed to have occa-
sioned a mutual enmity, that implied an impossibility of its




142 COALITION OF MR. FOX AND LORD NORTH, &c. [March 5.
ever being destroyed; so it may be perceived that the cause
of the country can with the greatest facility turn that enmity
into confidence and friendship. From this view of the sub-
ject, it may very welt appear what the situation of the coun-
try must be, which is sufficient to unite men of such different
descriptions as myself and the noble lord. By this I mean
not the least reflection on the principles of the noble lord, but
rather the sentiments that so long occasioned that war which
has ended so unhappily. But this is past, and I trust the
consequence of the coalition will be the salvation of the
country.


The debate continued till half past three in the morning, when
the House divided :


Tellers. Tellers.{Lord Maitland'
{Lord MahonS N 1




YEA
l3yng j 20^.--NOES Mr. Macdonald S i9°`


Majority for censuring the terms of the peace 17.


COALITION or MR- Fox AND LORD NORTH—RESIGNATION
OF THE EARL OF SIIELBURNE —NEW MINISTRY.


March 5.


N consequence of the censure passed on the peace by the reso-
1 lutions of the House of Commons on the asst of February, the
Earl of Shelburne quitted his office of first commissioner of the
treasury, and the chancellor of the exchequer (Mr. Pitt,) de-
clared publicly in the House, that he only held his place till a
successor should be appointed to fill it. A ministerial interreg-
num ensued, which lasted till the beginning of April ; during
which time the kingdom remained in a state. of great disorder ;
without any responsible government at home, the finances neglect-
ed, the military establishments unreduced, and the negociations
with foreign powers, which the critical conjuncture of affairs ren-
dered peculiarly important, entirely at a stand. Various causes
were assigned for the extraordinary delay in the appointment of a
new administration. Those who wished to shift all blame from
the court, alledged, that the chief obstacle arose from the mutual
jealousy which still subsisted between the newly-allied parties,
and the difficulties they found in adjusting their several pretensions.
Others supposed, that the interval was employed in private in-
trigues with the individuals of different parties, and in an attempt
to form an administration independent of the great leading con-
nections. Others again did not hesitate to assert, that on the
failure of this attempt, the influence possessed by the lord high


783.] COALITION OF MR. PDX AND LORD NORTH, &C. 143


chancellor, whose dismission was a point insisted on by the coali-
tion, was the principal cause that retarded the new arrangements
On the 5 th of March the secretary at war brought up the mu-
tiny bill, which being read a first time,


Mr. Fox begged leave to say a few words on this bill,
which, however, he did not mean to oppose or delay in its
present stage. Gentlemen knew very well that a standing
army in this country was unconstitutional; this was a princi-
ple which the annual passing of a mutiny bill was calculated
to keep fresh in the memory of parliament; but if it was un-
constitutional to keep a standing army at all, surely it must
be infinitely more so to vote an army, when there was not a
single person in the kingdom to be responsible for the govern-
ment of that army ; and yet this was the case at present ; the
House being called upon to vote an army, when there was
not a cabinet or minister to be responsible for the manage-
ment or direction of it. Now, in this situation of affairs, he
might suppose a case, in which this bill might, if passed,
enable somebody to do what people had within these few days
heard of without doors, namely, to dissolve the parliament: for
his own part, he declared, upon his honour, he did not be-
lieve there was a man in the kingdom desperate enough to
advise such a measure. However, as it was possible there


• might be a man so lost to every sense of duty, so daring, and
so desperate, as to think of such a measure, he thought it
would be prudent to guard against his counsels, by stopping
the bill for some time in the House. The delay could not be
long, as it was impossible things could remain long in their
present unsettled state; and the bill might be afterwarda
passed time enough to receive the royal assent before the ex-
piration of the last mutiny bill.


In reply to Mr. Fox, the secretary at war assured the House
he would give timely notice of the second reading of the bill.


March 6.


Mr. Powys moved, " That his majesty's message of the zd of
Alay last. be read, and afterwards the subsequent proceedings pf
the House at a few days distance." The clerk having read the*
passages of the Journals, Mr. Powys moved, " That an humble
address be presented to his majesty, most humbly to represent,
that whereas his majesty has from his paternal regard to the wel-
fare of his people, and his desire to avoid imposing any new bur_
thenupon the public, been graciously pleased to suppress the se-
veral offices mentioned in his majesty's message to this House in
the last session of parliament, and has likewise given his royal as-




144 COALITION or MR. FOX AND LORD NORTH, &C. [March 6.
sent to an act fir carrying the said most gracious design into full
execution, and for regulating the granting of pensions, and pre-
venting all abuses or excess therein : this House trusts, that the
same restrictions will be observed in respect to any pension his
majesty may be advised to grant antecedent to the fifth day of
April, as by the said act are thenceforth strictly and absolutely
prescribed." In the conversation that took place on this motion,
it was strenuously urged on one side, that though, for reasons
which were deemed sufficient at the time, the operation of the act
had been postponed till the 5 th of April 1 783, yet it was generally
understood, that the spirit of the act was binding on the king's
thinisters from the day on which it was brought into the house ;
and that the noble marquis, under whose administration it passed,
had declared this to have been his opinion. Mr. Chancellor Pitt
was therefore called on to inform the House whether there was any
foundation for the rumour which prevailed, and on which the mo-
tion had been grounded, that a great variety of pensions had been
lately granted to a very considerable amount. In answer to this
question, the minister first observed, that he could not subscribe
to the doctrine he had just heard ; that the spirit of the act was
binding on him before the time fixed by the express letter of the
law. The object of the act was to take away a power, which the
crown had otherwise an undoubted legal right to exercise ; but by
limiting its restrictive operation to a future fixed period, the spirit
of the law rather tended to sanction the intermediate exercise of
that power. He then entered into a detail and vindication of the
different pensions that had been lately; or were then in the course
of being granted. The first, he said, was a pension of 30001. to
the lord chancellor, to whom a grant in reversion had also been
given of a tellership of the exchequer, in consequence of a former
promise given him by the king. -The propriety of making a per-
manent provision for this great law officer had been at all times so
universally acknowledged, that he did not think it necessary. to
trouble the House with a particular justification of this pension.
The second was a pension of 20001. a year to . Lord Grantham.
This, he said, had been granted at the particular instance of his
majesty, and was to cease whenever he was in possession of any
place of greater or equal emolument. That noble lord, at-
the end. of an eight years embassy, had refused to receive the
emoluments usually continued to those offices ; and when called
to take on him the post of a secretary of state, his majesty had
been pleased to promise him a pension of 20001. whenever he should
quit that situation. The third vas another pension of l000l. to Sir
Joseph Yorke, granted him as a reward for thirty years services in
foreign embassy. Both these pensions, he said, were strictly with-
in the spirit as well as letter of the act. The fourth was a pension
of 7 001. and the fifth, another of 5ool. a year, granted to two clerks
of the treasury, whom, for the sake of some official arrangements.
they had found it necessary to superannuate. The sixth was a pen-
sion . of tool. a year, granted to a gentleman on his leaving the tax-
office, to undertake the office of one of the secretaries - to the trea-
sury, as a compensation, in case, by a change of ministry, he should.


1783.] COALITION OF MR. FOX AND LORD NORTH, 8" 145
be thrown out of employment. The last was a pension of 3501. a
year promised by the last administration to the secretary of Sir
Guy Carleton.


Mr. Fox supported the motion, as the House must be con-
vinced from what they had heard that it was peculiarly neces-
sary. He thanked the worthy member for having moved it,
and agreed with him in the wish that it had been made
earlier. He said, he had no inclination to disturb or revoke
any of the pensions that had been so fairly stated to the House
by the right honourable gentleman, but there was something
in the right honourable gentleman's mode of defending them,
that gave him serious alarm. In the first place, he did not at
all approve of the name of his majesty having been so fre-
quently introduced ; it certainly was disorderly, and the put-
ting every act of the ministry upon the personal promise of
the king, took away the responsibility, which the constitution
had placed on the advisers of the crown, and rendered it a
very difficult matter for members of that House to do their
duty to the public. It was, Mr. Fox declared, of all other
matters the most delicate and the most disagreeable to speak
to measures,. with which persons were so intimately connect-
ed, that however any thing invidious and personal might be
fairly disclaimed, and disclaimed upon the honour of the
speaker, the world was apt to separate the person from the
measure, and to impute warrantable parliamentary objection
to the former, to envy or private pique against the latter.
With regard to the lord chancellor, he had long lived, and
he hoped to continue to live with him, on terms of sincere
private friendship; that noble and learned lord undoubtedly
possessed great abilities, but perhaps he was of opinion, that
those abilities were not exerted in a manner most beneficial,
but on the contrary, in a manner most disadvantageous and
most injurious to the true interests of the country. That
the lord chancellor ought to be provided for, if he was to
resign his high office, was a matter so obviously proper, that
no man could offer an objection to that proposition. He
should have liked the mode of providing for that noble lord,
however, better, had it not been rested by the right honour-
able gentleman upon a promise of his majesty. To put it upon
that ground created a difficulty, and in a manner barred all
comment, because whatever promises the royal personage
chose to make, he should be ready at all times to say, they
ought to be held sacred, and fulfilled at all hazards. It was
not, nevertheless, a fair argument for ministers to use in that
liouse, when a public act of administration was under dis-
eussoir ;z. With regard to the pension granted to Lord




146 COALITION' OF MR. FOX AND LORD NORTH, &C. [March 6.
Grantham; with that noble lord from his earliest infancy, he
had been accustomed to live • in habits of the strictest friend-
ship ; and therefore, it was almost needless for him to disclaim
any invidious or personal motive in what he had to say upon
that noble lord's pension. He would then, without scruple,
declare, that the pension itself did not appear to him to
be greatly objectionable; but the manner and the time of
oTantino- it gav e him most serious alarm indeed. 'What hadgr ting b
the right honourable gentleman told the House ? That his
majesty, when Lord Grantham accepted of the office of secre-
tary of state, promised him a pension of 20001. a year when-
ever he should quit that office. What did this lead to, if the
practice obtained, but a most dangerous and alarming exercise
of the influence of the crown ? What was it, but bribing per-
sons by pensions to take on them offices, to accept which they
bad no inclination? By this means the crown could always
obtain an administration without the smallest regard to the
sense of parliament, or the confidence of the people.


After severely reprobating this mode of bestowing a pen-
sion, as a condition of accepting high office, and declaring
that though a. lord chancellor had a right to expect a pension
on quitting his situation, he hoped it would not be understood,
that future secretaries of state were to have the same expecta-
tions ; Mr. Fox adverted to the defence set up by Mr. Pitt for
Lord Grantham having been employed on foreign service for
the crown. Mr. Fox admitted that his lordship came under
that description, but said, he had himself moved to insert that
clause of the act of parliament, though with a different view
from that in which it was now regarded. His idea was, not
to enable the crown to grant pensions to noblemen who had
been employed in important embassies, and whose affluent pri-
vate fortunes placed them above the want of a pension, but to
enable the crown to provide for a very different descrip-
tion of persons sent upon foreign service. It was well known,
that young men of some family and abilities were picked out,
and sent early in life to foreign courts, where they remain-
ed for several years, and were then moved to other courts,
and so on. These persons, were they not so employed,
would doubtless have pursued some profession or other at
home, in which they might have been successful ; and there-
fore, when from a change of administration it became neces-
sary to recall them, he thought it extremely hard, (as they
must by that time have lost all their connections at home,
as well as their chance of success in any professional pursuit)
that they should go unrewarded. It was to meet this diffi-
culty, that he had moved the clause, and with no other vieW
whatever.


1783.] COALITION OF MR. Pox AND LORD NORTH, Ste; 147
He next came to the mention of Sir Joseph Yorke's pension,


and not having the honour to be acquainted with that gen-
tleman,he said, he was not enabled to fortify himself against
the charge of personal and invidious motives, in regard to
what he should say, in like manner as he had been able to
fortify himself, with regard to the lord chancellor and Lord
Grantham; he could only therefore disclaim being actuated
by any such motives. With respect to Sir Joseph's pension,
lie declared, though he had served his country in foreign em-
bassy thirty- years, yet when he looked at his honours and
emoluments, he saw no necessity for the pension lately granted.
He next spoke .


of Mr. 1VIorgan's pension, and said, that he
knew nothing of the promise of any such pension when he
was in office. Perhaps the noble lord below him (Lord John
Cavendish) might. .He objected, however, very strongly to
any pension being granted as a bribe to induce any person to
take upon him an efficient office. He thought the principle a
pernicious one, and though he meant nothing invidious or
personally offensive to the learned lord advocate over the
way (Mr. Dundas), he could not avoid taking that opportu-
nity of saying, that when the learned lord accepted an office
for life, at the same time that lie accepted the office of trea-
surer of the navy, (which though not a sinecure, was pretty
much like one) all the world. wondered at such a strange mode
of giving a man an office for life, as a condition of his taking
another, and that almost a sinecure office ; and it was uni-
versally declared the most lavish and absurd mode of wast-
ing the public money that could be adopted. Mr. Fox next
adverted to the two clerks of the treasury, who had been
superannuated on pensions of cool. and Too/. per annum, and
asked, if they really were, from infirmity, illness, or any
other cause, obliged-to be superannuated, or whether the whole
of that business was not a mere job, foe the sake of an ar-
rangement more agreeable to the minister ? With regard to
the granting 2001. a-year to a clerk taken from the tax-office
to the treasury, he reprobated that measure, and alluded
to a transaction that had passed in the House of Lords ten
days since, which he termed a scandalous transaction.


He again urged the bad policy of granting pensions, as
bribes to persons to take on them efficient employment, and
having fully discussed all the topics he had touched upon, he
said, though no man had a greater personal regard for the se-
cretary of state just promoted to a peerage*, than he enter-
tained ; and although no man wished him to be loaded with


The Right Honourable Thomas Townshend, had, on the p ecedhla
l̀ay been created Baron Sydney .of Chistehura, in Kent,


L 2
.




148 COALITION OF MR. FOX AND LORD NoRTH,&c. [March 6.


honours more than he did, yet the remark was so obvious, that
he could not avoid observing, that it was a little extraordinary,
that the crown should think proper to reward those ministers
who had assisted in making


it,
peace, which the more he con.


sidered and reconsidered , the more he found cause to
wonder at the possibility of any man being capable of setting
his hand to it. And yet that peace, which, to say the least
of it, had not met with the approbation of that House, but in
some degree lay under its censure, was thought of so diffe-
rently elsewhere, that it had been found adviseable to reward
one of the secretaries who made it with honours, and the other
with emoluments.


After putting this very pointedly, Mr. Fox said, with the
leave of the House he would so far digress from the principal
subject of debate, as to take some notice of the extraordinary
remark made by the honourable gentleman who moved the
address. To find that gentleman at any time differ from him
in opinion, was a Matter that gave him real concern. He la-
mented that an honourable friend, who was every way so
respectable and independent, did not concur with him in sen-
timent, but he could not let what had fallen from that ho-
nourable gentleman pass unnoticed ; at the same time he de-
clared he knew not to what his honourable friend had alluded.
His honourable friend had talked of those who avowed, who
boasted, and who gloried in acting independent of the public.
opinion. If his honourable friend meant to allude to him,
he was mistaken : he had neither avowed, boasted of, nor
gloried in any such conduct; on the contrary, he main-
tained the very reverse idea ; and he was not a little sur-
prised to hear his honourable friend immediately afterwards
confess, he thought the government ought to go into such
hands. How was this to be reconciled? To him it appeared
most irreconcileable. He had contended, and he ever would
contend, that no ministers who acted independent of the
public opinion, ought to be employed. The public opiniori,
alone was the basis, in his mind, on which an administration-
should be formed. It had been argued again and again, that
-the king had a right to cause his own ministers. In that par.
titular, he rested on the spirit of the constitution, and not on
the letter of it; and grounding his opinion on the spirit of the
constitution, he ever had and ever would maintain, that his
majesty, in his choice of ministers, ought not to be influenced
by his personal favour alone, but by the public voice, by the
sense of his parliament, and the sense of his people. An.
administration in whom that House did not place a confi7
dente, was such an administration as it was unfafe to lodge
t:he government of this country in at this crisis: It was 110),


di


1783.] COALITION or AIR. FOX AND LORD NORTH, ate.
149


argument to say, " I am a minister, because his majesty has
made me one." The personal influence of the crown was not
the ground for a minister to stand upon. The confidence of
the people must accompany the royal favour, or the country
could not be governed wisely, prosperously, or safely. He
would repeat what he had mentioned the day before; he did
not, upon his honour, believe there were any men so ex-
tremely desperate, but it was reported without doors, that
there was an intention of dissolving the parliament. Let
the House look at the business upon their table. Let them
consider the many, the great, and the important questions,
beyond all former example, that awaited their discussion.
Let them think of the consequence, if a dissolution of par-
liament was to take place, without a responsible minister in
office. He would not offer any proposition or advice to
them. Let them weigh their situation, and act accordingly.
With regard to the coalition so frequently alluded to, let
gentlemen coolly ask themselves, if ever unanimity was most
requisite, whether this was not the time for it? Let them con-
sult their judgment, whether former animosities ought not
to be buried under the present difficulties, and whether this
was a fit moment for retorts and repartees. To what pur-
pose urge former heats and asperities ? Were there any two
of them that could be put into a room together, of whom
a third person could not say, 46 you formerly violently op-
posed each other, and this or that harsh thing was. said of one
of you by the other ?" Mr. Fox conjured all sides of the
House to unite, through a sense of the critical situation of
the country. He advised moderation and unanimity, as the
great means of restoring the public welfare, and returned his
hearty thanks to Mr. Powys, for his vigilance and care in
bringing forward, at such a moment, a motion so wise, so
necessary, and every way so proper, as that under considera-
tion. Towards the conclusion of his speech he took occasion
again to mention the talents of the lord chancellor and his
great influence. He said, the country felt that influence to
its disadvantage at that moment. Had it not been for the
exertion of that influence, he verily believed such an admi-
n istration 'would have been some days since formed, as would
have


people.
had


confidence of parliament, and the confidence of
t


Mr. Dundas assured Mr. Fox, that he had not obtained the place
of keeper of the signet in Scotland, as an inducement to accept
of the treasurership of the navy, a place which he was very will-
ing to confess was not fit for him : he had said so to persons now
within hearing ; and he declared he had consented to accept it only
until some other person should be found to fill it. But he would not


L 3




or
1'50 COALITION OF MILTON AND LORD NORTH, &C. [March 24.
say he *as unfit for the place' he had obtained in Scotland; and
his majesty having been pleased to honour him with a patent place,
he would assure the honourable gentleman, he would never disho-
nour the patent, by carrying it to market. This pointed allusion
called up


Mr. Fox, who said, the transaction alluded to, namely, his
exchange of the clerkship of the pells in Ireland, for a pen-
sion on that kingdom, had nothing in it dishonourable: the
patent he had received from his father, as part of his for-
tune, and unconnected with the then administration, who
applied to him : he consented to accommodate government,
but on very bad -terms for himself, as he had given away a
thing of greater value than that which he had got in return
for it. This was the whole transaction. It had been a mat-
ter well known, a matter talked of in that House, and a mat-
ter that no one person, except the learned lord, ever thought
disgraceful or dishonourable in the smallest degree. The
place was no favour to him from the crown, no boon from
his present majesty or his ministers, but a legacy left him by
one of his relations, as disposable by him as any other species
of property whatever. Mr. Fox, after explaining this matter
very fully, declared, upon his honour, that he knew not of
the manner of the learned lord's accepting of the place of
treasurer of the navy, and mentioned, that the lord chan-
cellor bad refused putting the seal to the learned lord's patent
of keeper of the signet of Scotland for life, till he was ap-
pointed treasurer of the navy.


Mr. Rigby said, he was acquainted with the whole transaction
el Mr. lox's


's


baro:ain, which was perfectly honourable ; and in
which there was but one thing censurable— the right honourable
gentleman had parted with his patent for less than it was worth.
Mr. Byng justified Mr. Fox, with regard to his exchange of the
clerkship of the pells of Ireland, and said, that the place had no
sooner passed out of the hands of his honourable friend into that
of Mr. Jenkinson, for whom it was purchased, than its value seas
increased full 'cool. a year. The motion, after a few verbal altera4
tions, was agreed to.


March 24,
On the 19th of March, Mr. Coke, member for Norfolk,


gave notice, that if an administration should not be formed on
or before the Friday following, he would on that day move an
address to his Majesty on the subject: This notice was supposed
to have produced the desirecieffect ; and it being generally under-
stood the clay following, that the king had commanded the Duke
:of Portland and Lord North to lay an arrangement for a new ad-
ministration before him, Mr. Coke, on the day fixed, declined
making his intended motion. On Monday the 24th, the same


1783.] COALITION OF MR. FOX AND LORD NORTH, &C. 151


gentleman brought the subject again before the House. He said,
that having heard that the arrangement to which he had alluded,
was put an end to, he now thought it necessary to resume his in-
tention and would certainly make his motion, unless a right ho,
pourable gentleman opposite to him would declare that some other.
arrangement was conic to, consisting of men possessing the con-
fidence of the country. Mr. Chancellor Pitt assured the honour-
able gentleman, that he knew of no arrangement of administra-
tion whatever. upon this Mr. Coke moved, " That an humble
Address be presented to his majesty, that his majesty will be gra-
ciously pleased to take into his serious consideration the very dis-
tracted and unsettled state of the empire, after a long and ex-
hausting war ; and that his majesty would therefore condescend
to a compliance with the wishes of this House, by forming an ad-
ministration entitled to the confidence of his people, and such
as may have a tendency to put an end to the unfortunate
divisions and distractions of the country."—Mr. Buller said it was
naturally a matter of wonder that no administration had been_
formed, when it was known that there were a set of men not only
ready, but eager to get into office, and to form an administration
among themselves. That the circumstance called for enquiry, and;
he believed, upon probing it, the fact would turn out to be, that
his majesty had acted in time present instance as in every other of
his reign, with that graciousness and benignity towards his sub-
jects in general, which distinguished his character, and had long
since got over his personal feelings, with a hope of pleasing his
people by such a sacrifice. That his majesty therefore was by no
means the cause of so long a delay, but that it would rather be
found to have arisen from the difference of opinion that had pre-
vailed among the heads of the new coalition, who had united more
with a view to get into power, than from any other principle, and
therefore the first moment it became a question, how officers were
to be appointed, difficulties had occurred, which, to a coalition so
formed, must necessarily prove the source of much trouble, and
take a good deal of time to accommodate.—Mr. Hill, men-
tioned a design he had of proposing the following addition to the
address, " And that hi majesty would be graciously pleased not
to nominate or appoint any person or persons to fill up the vacant
departments, who by their mismanagement of public affairs and
want of foresight and abilities, when they were in office, had lost.
the confidence of the people."


Mr. Fox said, it had not been his expectation, that the
House would have gone into much debate that day, but after
hearing the right honourable the chancellor of the exche-
quer solemnly assure the House, that he knew of no arrange-
ment of administration whatever, and after hearing likewise,
what had fallen from the different gentlemen, who had spoken,
he thought it necessary to say a few words. He owned when
the honourable gentleman had risen, who spoke last but one
(Mr. Hill) he did imagine the honourable gentleman had in-


4




1783.] COALITION OF MR. FOX AND LORD NORTH, &C. f


whenever occasion called for it. He did' not in the present
instance conceive it possible for the calamitous situation of the
country (arising from the five weeks want of a responsible ad-
ministration) to have happened, had not the crown been ill
advised. Had a single hint only been given to those, with
whom. he acted, that the degree of confidence necessary to
carry on the measures of government would be placed in
them, every thing would have been easily adjusted. The mo-
tion went to that, and therefore, in giving it his support, he
could not think he countenanced an unconstitutional inter-
ference with the prerogative; although, had the motion borne
such a construction, as the noble earl who seconded it had
truly said, the present situation of the country would have
been a full justification. Let the noble earl only look at the
speech made by his majesty at the opening of the present ses-
sion, and he would there see a lesson laid clown to the House;
for the minister had made his majesty say, that he knew the
sentiments of the people better than their representatives.
The speech recommended the House to act with temper and
wisdom, collectively and individually, and concluded with
saying, " My people expect these qualifications of you, and
I call fir them." Surely, he said, the House had an equal
right to say to the throne, " The people expect an adminis-
tration they can confide in, and to you they call for it." To
form an administration of that kind, he said, it would be ne-
cessary to call forth great and distinguished abilities from all
parts of the House; it must be an administration formed on
a broad basis.


If ever it was right to forget former animosities, to forego
ancient prejudices, and to unite, it was right now. The situa-
tion of the country required a coalition' of parties, and in
order to attain so great an object, where so much was at stake,
and to fonn an administration on a broad and permanent ba-
sis, he was ready to shake hands even with those opposite to
Min, as well as with the noble lord in the blue ribbon, and
from out of the three parties to form such an administration
as the country could look up to with hope and with confi-
dence. In order to effect this, it would neither be wise nor
prudent to point out the former errors of one party or of the
other, but to lay aside the recollection of the past for the
sake of being able to do well for the country in future. With
regard to there being persons ready to accept of power, it
was a fact that there were. But surely for men to be ready
to endeavour to serve their country in a moment of uncom-
mon difficulty, with a table full of great and important busi-
ness, with a loan to be directly made, with many other ques-
tions of infinite magnitude, pressing for immediate discussion


152 COALITION OF MR. FOX AND LORD NOTITH, &C. [March 24,


tended to move the same amendment, which he understood
the honourable gentleman had read to the House on Friday
last. He used the word understood, because from accident,
and from accident merely, he had happened to be out of the
House at the time. The amendment was part of a motion
which he had formerly had the honour to make, but which
had not been adopted by the House, though it had received
the support of a. very respectable minority. It could not
therefore be brought forward as a matter that had met the
sanction of the House. The honourable gentleman had now
said, he would not move the amendment for the sake of avoid.
ing the confusion, into which it might have led the House
undoubtedly such would have been its effect; but the confu
sion would have been still greater than the honourable gen
tleman seemed aware of: for had the amendment been
moved, he should have proposed an amendment upon it; if
the first amendment had been carried, which desired his ma-
jesty not to employ persons, who from want of foresight had
lost the confidence of the people, his amendment would have
been to have added the words, << and also, that his majesty


.


would be graciously pleased not to employ as ministers, any
of those whom that House had declared to have made a peace,
in which the concessions to the adversaries of Great Britain
were greater than they were entitled to." Had both these
amendments been before the House, and certainly the one
was as fair, or more so, than the other (because it stood on
the Journals of the House, which the other did not), he
verily believed the House would have been a little con
fused how to act. If the honourable gentleman insisted that
the motion of last year, although supported by a respectable
minority, ought to exclude the noble lord in the blue ribbon,
surely his candour must make him acknowledge, that the vote
of the 21st of February, above alluded to, must equally ex-
clude the noble earl, who was at the head of the treasury.
Well then, what would be the consequence? Both those par-
ties being excluded, there would be only one set left unim-
peached ; and although that was the set he most wished for,
he should have voted against both amendments, confident,
that however respectable the Rockingham party were, they
were not sufficient to stand alone.


The noble earl (of Surrey) who seconded the motion, had
treated it rather too seriously, in thinking it would be an in-
fringement on the prerogative of the crown. He was ready
to own, that it was unconstitutional in that House to meddler
with the prerogative of the crown ; but lie never could agree
that it was not perfectly constitutional for them to enquire T
into, and to censure the conduct of the advisers of the crown,


S




54 comzriorr OP MR. FOX AND LORD NORTH, &C. [March 24.


and management, and with the prospect of a powerful oppo-
sition ; under all these circumstances, to be willing to under-
take the government of the country from a hope that they
might, by an union of abilities, and a vigorous exertion of
them, rescue the empire from its present calamitous condition,
was surely a matter in favour of those, who were ready to
undertake the government, and the more entitled them to the
thanks and confidence of that House and of the country in
general. 'With regard to the eagerness of gentlemen so sar-
castically mentioned, if any man thought in`times like the
present, that he and 'those who acted with him, were influ-
enced merely by motives of a personal nature, he was willing
to let them remain in that opinion.. To such an argument he
would not offer one word in reply. He had heard, he ob-
served, a good deal from an honourable gentleman, who spoke
early in the debate (Mr. Buller), about the new friends and
new connections of the noble lord in the blue ribbon. He
was a little surprised at hearing such an attack from such a
quarter. He was not old enough to remember it, but he un-
derstood, that the honourable gentleman himself, fourteen
years ago, quitted those who were now the noble lord's new
allies, then the honourable gentleman's old friends, to join
the noble lord. Was it more reprehensible for him, and
those who acted with him, to do that in a body now, which
the honourable gentleman had thought proper to do singly,.
as an individual, fourteen years ago ? As to the honourable
gentleman's suggestion, that the difficulty anti delay that had
attended the arrangement of ministers, 'would be found to
have arisen from a difference of opinion between the heads
of the two parties that had united, the honourable gentleman
was mistaken. He did not believe it arose from any want of
disposition on the part of his majesty to comply with the
wishes of his people, and he knew that it originated not in any
difference among those who had formed the coalition, so much
disapproved of by the honourable gentleman who spoke last.
With regard to their conduct respecting the arrangement, he
heartily wished he was at liberty to state every particular
of it without reserve. The more it was known, he was con-
vinced, the more it would be approved. It could hardly,
however, be said, that there was no government, on the
contrary, for these five weeks past it had been the most open
and bare-faced government ever known in this country. Not
a government by ministers, not by a first lord of the trea-
sury, or by secretaries of state, those puppets and instruments
of others, but by the persons themselves who had been sup-
posed only before to possess some secret influence, but who.
'low stood forward as the private advisers of his majesty tp.;


1783.] COALITION OF MR. FOX AND LORD NORTH, &C. 155
act in opposition to the wishes of his people and to the sense
of his parliament. [During this, Mr. Fox looked hard at
Mr. Jenkinson. j It was, he verily believed, owing to that
secret influence alone, that so much delay had hitherto been
practised. If any min wished to see who it was that had for
five weeks past governed the kingdom, and ill advised his
majesty, let them go to the other House, they would there
find the great adviser in his true character. Let them mark
the man, they would see difficulty, delay, sullenness, and all
the distinguishing features of what had been falsely termed an
interregnum of administration, but what was, as he had be-
fore said, a sample of the most open government ever known
in this country. Mr. Fox said, the motion had his hearty
approbation, and he trusted that there could be• no objection
to it. He advised the House by all means to be unanimous
upon it, to carry up the address to the throne as the sense of
that House, upon the want of an administration, and not as
the measure of any one party or set of men Whatever. If any
of the particular words of it were deemed objectionable, he
said, he could answer for his honourable friend who moved it,
that they should be giveirup or altered, as the House should
think proper ; but at any rate he hoped it would pass.


In reply to Mr. Fox's insinuation concerning the evil advisers of
his majesty, and the secret influence behind the throne, Mr.
Jenkinson considering himself as alluded to by the right honoura,..
ble gentleman, stood up to refute the charge in every; and in the
fullest sense of its unwarrantable meaning. He said that the pre-
rogative of the crown was not so limited as to proscribe any privy
counsellor the presence of his sovereign, or to take from that so-
vereign the advice of a privy counsellor. As to secret influence,
he denied such ever to have existed in him, but he thought that
When his.majesty was graciously pleased to send to him and corn,-
mand his attendance, he was bound in duty and respect to obey
the summons. He owned that in the course of the last five weeks
lie had been with his majesty more than once: he declared that
he never did go, except on official business, and when he was
sent for; and that he never did use any secret influence, or gave
any advice whatsoever, which was not warranted by the strongest
principles of national justice. In reply to various observation's
made by Mr.Macdonald,


Mr. Fox rose, and took a comprehensive view of the coa-
lition, and reprobated, in the strongest terms, every insinua-
tion and charge made by the honourable gentleman. He said,
his very severe attack on the noble lord in the blue ribbon
need not give his lordship any pain ; for as it was early in the
debate, it was probable, and there was a precedent for
it, that the honourable gentleman, before the rising of




156 COALITION OF MR. FOX AND LORD NORTH, &e. [March 24.
the House would get np and make an apology for what
he had said, or at any rate, it might be expected by the.
next clay at -farthest. He denied that the delays of form-
ing a ministry were at the doors of the Duke of Portland and
his friends ; they lay elsewhere. It was, without question,
the lord chancellor whom he meant as the secret adviser of the
crown, and the cause of the delay in the choice of an admi-
nistration. He avowed the charge, he wished not to conceal
his opinion, and he openly averred, that to the learned lord
he looked for the influence which at present directed the sove-
reign. His reasons for so doing were these ; that as there was
not any first lord of the treasury, any ostensible minister to be
answerable, the chancellor, of course, was the person to be
considered as the only official man from whom his majesty
could receive advice ; and therefore he alluded to that learned
lord. That there was influence, that there was secret coun-
cil, he believed no man doubted. 'lie coalition alluded to by
the honourable gentleman had, it seemed, met with disappro-
bation, because old enemies had become new friends ; because
those who differed on former points had, in present matters,
come to an agreement. Was this so extraordinary an affair ?
Was reconciliation such an improper, such an unprecedented,
such an unparliamentary maxim? Surely not I 'The empire
was thrown into convulsions; the state was without an helm,
and the kingdom without a government. As to what the ho-
nourable gentleman alledged in respect to the coalition oc-
casioning the delay, he was misinformed • and as to what he
had said about the contention in that coalition for power, his
information was not correct. This he advanced as a truth
incontrovertible, because it was founded in that which could
not be controverted. The coalition was founded on a princi-
ple to which every honest man in the kingdom must agree.
It was founded on a principle that went to reconcile old ani-
mosities, and to form an administration upon a permanent,
sound, and constitutional foundation. Such was the admi-
nistration that this country wanted, and such only -was the
administration that could relieve it from its present difficulties.
Much had been said about old enemies re-uniting. He took
the liberty again to mention the circumstance, and he de-
manded if that was improper or impolitic. Political diffe-
rences, and the diversified interests of party, had brought
this kingdom to its present unhappy situation. And as by the
recent and former examples of a want of coalescence, there
were evident proofs that the empire could only be happy in the
unanimity of parliament ; so it followed, that coalitions to ef-
fect that unanimity were constitutionally proper. When the
House looked at the business upon the table, when they con-


7 8 3 .] COALITON OF MR. FOX AND LORD NORTH, &c.
157


sidered the situation of affairs at home and abroad, and when
they looked to the probable and certain consequences, it must
be natural to conclude, that nothing could save this country
from ruin, but a vigorous, virtuous, and steady administra-
tion. Something had been said by the honourable gentleman,
(Mr. M'Donald) that alluded to a venal tribe, as always ap-
plied to those who had supported the administration of the
noble lord in the blue ribbon. He wished to know whether
by. that description the honourable gentleman meant those
who changed their opinion, those who left him, because, as
they themselves contended, he had not so great a power as
formerly of providing for his friends, or those who still ad-
hered to him without the prospect of reward, and had not
joined others who were likely to pay better. If he meant the
former, then the honourable gentleman spoke from convic-
tion. As to what had been said respecting a majority of in-
terest, he denied any such idea. There was indeed; as al-
ready observed, some slight difference in respect to the coali-
tion, but out of the five weeks negotiation, that only took up
ten hours, and was then finally adjusted and conclusively
settled. The charge, therefore, in that respect, was ground-
less. He begged pardon for again repeating this matter to
the House, but as it was urged in a strong manner against a
noble duke, he thought he could not too much impress the
subject on the attention of the House. The motion before the
House, therefore, became a matter absolutely requisite to be
adopted. The people demanded it, the kingdom wanted it,
and therefore it should have his .


concurrence. Mr. Fox took
notice of what had fallen from Mr. Jenkinson respecting his
giving the king his advice; he admitted, that being a privye,
counsellor, he had a right so to do, but what he found fault
with was, be declared, not that the honourable gentleman
gave his majesty his advice, but that he gave it him in secret.
There lay the rub; let it be public; let it be in the face of the
council, that the honourable gentleman was his majest y's ad-
viser, and there would be no harm in the business, nor any
thing suspicious in it; as the matter stood, the case was widely
different.


Mr. Coke's motion for an address was agreed to without a divi-
sion. To this address his majesty replied, " That it was his
.earnest desire to do every thing in his power to comely with the
wishes of his faithful Commons."




158 COALITION OF MR. FOX AND LORD NORTH, &C. [March 31.


March 31.
On the 31st of March Mr. Pitt acquainted the House, that he


had that day resigned his office of chancellor of the exchequer ;
and being asked, whether he understood that any new arrange-
ment was likely soon to take place? he said, he knew of none,
but concluded, from his majesty's answer to the address, that such
a measure would not unnecessarily be delayed. This answer did
not appear to give any satisfaction to the house; and especially
as it now appeared, that the care of the public money was left
without any responsible minister whatever. Much difference of
opinion prevailed as to the steps it might be proper for the House
to take in so alarming a conjuncture. The Earl of Surrey pro-
posed as the ground work of their future proceedings, that they
should come to the following resolution : " That a considerable
time having now elapsed without any administration responsible
for the conduct of public affairs, the interposition of this House
on the present alarming crisis is become necessary." Several
objections were made to this proposition. It was said to be
worded in a manner much stronger than the occasion justified:
and that, to declare their interposition necessary in a case, ac-
knowledged on all hands to belong constitutionally to the, crown,
was little short of declaring that the government of the country
was at an end. It was further objected, that such a proceeding
was not consonant to the practice and forms of the House; and
lastly, it was objected to, as implying, that for some time past
there had been no responsible ministers, whereas every minister
was responsible for every part of his conduct till the clay he re-
signed. This motion being withdrawn, the Earl of Surrey pro-
posed the following : " That an humble address be presented to
his majesty, to express the dutiful and grateful sense this House
entertains of the gracious intentions expressed in his message of
the a6th instant.— To assure his majesty it is with a perfect
reliance on his paternal goodness, and with an entire deference to
his royal wisdom, that this House again submits to his considera-
tion the urgency, as well as the importance of the affairs, which
require the immediate appointment of such an administration as
his majesty, in compliance with the wishes of his faithful Commons,
has given them reason to expect : to assure his majesty that all
delays in a matter of this moment have an inevitable tendency to
weaken the authority of his government, to which this House is
not more bound by duty than led by inclination to give an effec-
tual and constitutional support—To represent to his majesty,
that -the confidence of foreign powers may be weakened by a fai-
lure of the ordinary means of a constant communication with them.
That the final execution of treaties, with the important and deci-
sive arrangements of a commercial and political nature in con-
sequence of a late revolution ; —that a provision for the heavy
expences and the important services voted;—that the orderly
reduction of the forces, and the expences of a new establishment ;


that the settlement of national credit, seriously affected by the,


1783.] COALITION OF MR. FOX AND LORD NonTfi, &C. 159
critical state of the East India Company ;—that these, with other
important concerns, do severally, and much more collectively,
require an efficient and responsible administration, formed upon
principles of strength and stability, suited to the state of his ma-
jesty's affairs both at home and abroad.— And that this House
most humble repeats its application to his majesty, that he will
take such measures towards this object, as may become his most
gracious disposition, and quiet the anxiety and apprehensions of
his faithful subjects."


The decency and propriety of this address were very generally
acknowledged, but some doubts were expressed whether sufficient
time had been allowed since the answer that had been returned to
the former. In the course of the debate, the negotiation that had
broken off' eight days before was again adverted to. After the
satisfactory answer given in a former debate, that no obstacle or
impediment had arisen from any disagreement amongst the per-
sons with whom that negotiation was carried on, a report had been
industriously circulated, that it had been broken off on account
of the harsh and unreasonable demands of that party—and that
these demands went to the absolute dismission of all the private
and domestic servants of the crown. On the ground of this report,
Sir William Dolben having called on Lord North to avow its truth
or falsehood, his lordship solemnly protested, that no such cause
either did or could have. existed ; that the noble duke and him-
self had never, even in conversation, descended to the mention
of any arrangements so minute as to reach the offices alluded to ;
that he believed there was no set of men in the country, who
could be so indecent and so reprehensible as to presume to dictate


harsh He did not scruple, he said, to declare thatso a measure.
so disgraceful an attempt would justly have called for the ab-
horrence and detestation, of that House ; but that he was con-
vinced his noble and honourable friends would be as much hurt.,
as he confessed he was at that moment, to have it insinuated that
such a proof of unworthiness to fill any office whatever themselves
had been given by them. — Mr. Perceval said, if the address was
persisted in, he could wish to acid an amendment to it, by " as-
suring his majesty, that that House would fully support any ad.
ministration he might be pleased to form, as long as they acted
constitutionally." That amendment, he thought, ought to be
inserted, as it would clearly evince that the address did not 'pro-
ceed from any party motives, or that the House wished to point
out any particular set of' men to his majesty of whom to make
ch ice.


Mr. Fox rose, and declared that be by no means saw the
necessity of the amendment, mentioned by the honourable
gentleman ; the address, in his opinion, fully expressed what
the honourable gentleman wished; it said, that the House
was bound by duty, and led by inclination, to give an effec-
tual and constitutional support; surely that was saying every
thing that could be wished: it would be needless to say more;




16o coALrrloN or MR, rox AND tom) NORTH, &C. [March 244
indeed it would be wrong to agree to support men before
they knew who those men were. — In the course of the debate
the learned lord advocate had observed, that the resignation
of Mr. Pitt ought to be a means of postponing the address;
at the same time insinuating, that the great obstacle to form-
ing an arrangement was now removed. Did the learned lord
wish to say that Mr. Pitt's remaining in office for the last six
weeks was the cause why no arrangement could take place?
If he did, the blame undoubtedly lay with Mr. Pitt; but he
by no means believed that to be the case; for his own part,
he conceived the resignation of that right honourable gentle-
men neither retarded nor expedited the forming an arrange-
ment, for he had, in fact, been considered out of office these
six weeks; nay, his own words, a considerable time since,
were, that he only remained as a locum tenens, to do the bu-
siness until some other person was appointed ; surely, then,
his having resigned this day could be nothing unexpected. ,i


The learned lord had desired the motion to be postponed
for a few days. Would the learned lord assign any reasons
for putting, the address off; would he give the House any
reason to think an arrangement was about to be made, and
in such forwardness, as to promote a ministry in a few days
in iiict, would he give the House any reason whatever why an
arrangement had been so long delayed? If he would not, he
must say, that the learned lord's inexpressible reasons were
such, as by no means warranted the House in delaying the
address moved by the noble earl. The situation of the coun-
try, so truly painted by the noble earl, called aloud for an
administration to be formed with all possible speed, and the ,l''
learned lord himself had said, that any unnecessary delay cer-
tainly was culpable. Surely six weeks had been sufficient
time to form an arrangement in, therefore it was clear that •
some persons were culpable, but vdio they were, he was not
warranted in saying; yet he would persevere in what lie men-
tioned on a former occasion, that those persons were culpable
who gave his majesty advice to delay the business, and on
whom could lie fix that culpability bat on those who had
access to his royal person?


With regard to Mr. Pitt's responsibility, he was glad to-,ii.
hear the noble lord in the blue ribbon touch upon that point.
Had not the noble lord spoken in that manner to the first
motion lie meant to have done so. As long as the right !i
honourable gentleman held his office, so long he certainly -:


...


was responsible; not that he meant to charge him as the
cause of the delay, of not appointing an administration for
so long a time, —a matter which the country felt severely l
He had no inclination to prefer an accusation to that quarter;


1783.] COALITION OF MR. FOX AND LORD NORTH, &c.
161


indeed, he was neither ripe to acquit, nor ready to condemn ;
without proof he could say nothing one way or the other.
With respect to the general argument of the learned lord, if
it applied at all, it applied in a way directly opposite to that
in which it had been used. All the learned lord had said,
as Well his inexpressible reasoning, as his other reasoning,
went rather to skew that the address was necessary, than that
it was unjustifiable. The learned lord had said, if there had
been delay — if there had been delay?— had there not?
"What did all the world complain of? — But then, said the
learned lord, if there had been culpable delay? Undoubtedly
the delay was culpable. Why had that House voted their
address of Monday, but because they thought the delay cul-
pable? Why for a moment entertain the present motion, but
because the still longer delay appeared to be still more cul-
pable ? There was no doubt of the fact, the only question
under the present circumstances was this: would it not be
wise to act unanimously, and for that House to avoid as
much as possible the appearance of any thing like a conten-
tion of parties? For this reason he deprecated a_ division;
He earnestly conjured the House not to divide; he conjured
them rather to withdraw the motion, than let it go to a divi-
sion. If either the learned lord or the right honourable gen-
tleman would declare, nay, if they would hint only that they
believed an arrangement would speedily be formed, or if they
would say a motion similar in purport to the present would
be agreed to by them, if no arrangement took place in a day
or two, he would by all means advise the noble earl to with-
drawn his motion. On the present occasion, however they
might differ on other questions, he was persuaded there was
but one opinion ; where, therefore, there was a real unani-
mity, he wished most earnestly to avoid the appearance of
dissension.


Having argued this very strenuously, Mr. Fox took notice
of what Sir 'William Dolben had said. He observed, that
the honourable baronet had called for more than insinuation
to support the charge of secret influence. If the honourable
baronet would recollect what had passed last Monday, he
would have remembered, that he had much stronger evidence
of the existence of secret influence than bare insinuation; he
bad self-confession. That which suspicion had only glanced
at heretofore, boast and exultation had avowed. He had
learnt more than- ever he knew before, and, in fact, more than
ever he expected to have heard; he had learnt that a privy
counsellor, who -was not a minister, might give his sovereign
advice, and not be responsible for the effect that might be
Produced by it. Surely the House _could not agree to such


VOL. II.
M




162 COALITION Or MR.FOX AND LORD NORTH, &C. [March 24


an absurd, ridiculous, and dangerous doctrine : indeed it was
an insult to their understanding, but it had been exultingly
mentioned by a right honourable gentleman (Mr. Jenkinson)
on Monday last, and the only excuse he made for it was,
that he never gave any but good advice. How was it to be
known whether that advice was good or bad, but by the effect
produced? The effect was the only criterion he could judge
by, and if that right honourable gentleman had given his
sovereign advice in the present instance, he was the person
culpable. He knew, he said, perfectly well, that it was a
difficult matter to prove to the House the culpability of a
person in such an affair, as private conversation could not be
called for, nor could the secrets of the cabinet be divulged.
The noble lord (North) near him had been called on by that
right honourable gentleman on Monday last to declare, whe-
ther he ever found his schemes frustrated by a secret influence?
and he had declared that he had not. This might be easily
accounted for; the right honourable gentleman in question
was a known friend to the government under that noble lord,
as the measures it pursued were consonant to his ideas and
wishes. But what would the consequence be, if that right
honourable gentleman was suffered to give his sovereign
advice without being responsible? When an administration
might be in power that was of a different way of thinking to
him, what a predicament would they find themselves in !
Their schemes, their plans, formed with the best intent pos-
sible, all frustrated, owing to advice given by a person by no
means responsible for the effect of his advice ! What could
an administration do in such a case? Why, in his opinion,
they would have no other alternative than to signify their
disapprobation to the measures by a resignation of their
offices. That was the only step a virtuous administration
could take; but he sincerely hoped, that such steps would be
taken as totally to preclude any thing of the kind happening
in future.


The public were led to believe several things to the preju-
dice of himself and his friends, by a number of arrangements
that daily appeared in the public papers. How those arrange-
suents .came into the papers, or who formed them, he was to-
tally ignorant ; he could with a safe conscience say, they were,
to the best of his knowledge, erroneous; at least, he knew no-
thing of such arrangements. He was in hopes, as the whole
House seemed perfectly agreed on two grand points; first, the
necessity of an administration; and secondly, that the appoint-
ment of that administration should be such as was most con-
sistent with the dignity of the crown, that there would be no
division. This he must again urge tothe House. Unanimity,


I I


1783•]
WILLIAMS'S DIVORCE RILL.


163


however desirable at all times, being never more requisite than
at present, he therefore by all means wished the House not to
divide, but cordially to agree, as that would be one great
means towards expediting the business so ardently wished
for.


The Earl of Surrey consented to withdraw his motion, with an.
understanding that it was to be renewed in three days. The day
after this debate, a negotiation was.again opened with the Duke of
Portland, and on the ad of April a new Administration was
announced.


WILLIAMS'S DIVORCE BILL.


Merck 27.


THE House resolved itself into a committee on Williams's di-vorce bill. A conversation 'took place on the subject of the
clause, inserted in the upper House, on the motion of Lord Ashbur-
ton, the purport of which was, that the children born after the


The following is a List of the New Administration.
Members of the Cabinet.


First Lord of the Treasury — Duke of Portland.
Secretary of State for the Home Department — Lord North.
Ditto for the Foreign Department — Right Hon. Charles James Fox.
Chancellor of the Exchequer—Lord John Cavendish.
First Lord of the Admiralty Lord Viscount Keppel.
President of the Council— Lord Viscount Stormont.
Lord Privy Seal — Earl of Carlisle.


Not of the Cabinet.
Lords Commissioners for the Custody of the Great Seal — Lord Louah-


borough, Sir Wm. henry Ashurst, Sir Beaumont Hotham.
Master-General of the Ordnance—Lord Viscount Townshend.
Secretary at War — Hon. Richard Fitzpatrick.
Paymaster of the Forces—Edmund Burke, Esq.
Treasurer of the Navy — Charles Townshend, Esq.
Attorney-General — James Wallace, Esq.
SolicitorL General — John Lee, Esq.
.Secretaries to the Treasury — Rich. Brinsley Sheridan, Esq. Richard


Burke, Esq.
Speaker of the House of Lords — Earl of Mansfield.
Lord Lieutenant of Ireland — Earl of Northington.
Secretary to do. — William Windham, Esq.


AT 2




164 wayLIAMS'S DIVORCE BILL.


[March 27.
separation of the husband and wife should not be entitled to any
share of the husband's property, unless the said children should be
able to prove their legitimacy..


Mr. Fox arraigned this clause as an act of injustice to the
children, inasmuch as it robbed them of their claim to a pro-
vision from Mr. Williams, without so much as hearing them,
and then condemned them for not asserting a claim and mak-
ing out a title which their friendless and deserted infancy dis-
qualified them from doing. He was ready to admit that there
was an appearance of hardship on Mr. Williams; but it must
be remembered, that though the adultery of his wife was clear-
ly established, it by no means followed, that the illegitimacy
of the children was in any degree proved ; nay, it was by no
means the subject-matter of the bill, the object of which was,
simply to release Mr. Williams and his wife a vinculo matri-
monii : the parties applied to the legislature for that relief
which the law could not give : the law could pronounce on mat-
ters of filet, and determine questions of illegitimacy, &c. but it
could not dissolve the vinculum matrimonii. It was therefore
necessary that the legislature should interfere to supply the
defect of law, and dissolve the marriage : but there was no want
of power in the law to determine questions about legitimacy ;
and, therefore, what- ground could there be for calling upon
parliament to bastardize children whom the law was fully com-
petent to declare illegitimate, on proper evidence? He did
not mean to add to the misfortunes of Mr. Williams ; and
therefore he would -not object to the introduction of a bill,
which should perpetuate the evidence on which that gentleman
supposed the illegitimacy of the children might be proved;
such a bill would guard against the injury he might otherwise
sustain by the death of any of the witnesses, before the child- .
ren should arrive at full age. In the bill there were three
parties concerned, Mr. \Villiams, his wife, and the children.
The two first were only before the House, and therefore,
though he was ready to 'give sentence, as far as that sentence
could affect them, he was by no means prepared to say that
the children were bastards. He held it to be an inherent
and indispensable principle of justice, that no persons what-
ever should be deemed guilty of an offence, by any judgment
of authority, whether pronounced by parliament, or by any
other court, without having been heard in their defence, and
without having been afforded an opportunity of combating the
evidence adduced against them, in the manner that evidence
usually was combated on trials where the parties accused had
an opportunity of being in court and making their defence.
In order to render his meaning more obvious, he would sup-


i783.]


WILLIAMS'S DIVORCE BILL. 1-A5s


pose, that he was criminally indicted and tried for murder,
the blackest of all others in the calendar of crimes, and that
the indictment stated, and the evidence adduced, proved in,
the most satisfactory manner, that he, as B. was aiding and
abetting A. in the crime alledged, that he was present at the
murder, that he put the pistol or weapon with which the fact
was perpetrated into A.'s hand, that he held the person mur-
dered while A. killed him, and that he was tried for the fact,
condemned and executed. In this case, as far as the trans-
action affected him, the whole was consonant with the strictest
justice ; his execution, no man could say, had been unfair,
nor could there be a single argument raised to question the
equity of any part of the proceeding. But would any man
say, that therefore A. stood condemned. Would it be main-
tained for a moment even, that because A. had been inciden-
tally tried when B. was tried, that therefore A. ought, with-
out farther proceeding, to be likewise executed.? Undoubtedly
not. A. would be entitled to a separate and distinct trial, in
order -that A. might hear his accusation, combat the evidence,
and make his defence. If, then, in a criminal case this was
necessary, how much more so ought it to be adhered to in.
a civil one : In a case of landed property, in the case of a
fancily-estate, and, in short, in such a case as that of persons
upon whose proved legitimacy or illegitimacy depended the
validity of their claim to family honours, titles, and fortunes !
This was exactly the case of the children to be bastardized by
the clause then under consideration ; it surely, therefore,


• behoved the justice of the House to take particular care, how
they proceeded to give their sanction to a clause which de-
prived innocent infants of their estates, and declared them in-
famous, without having heard it proved that they were so.


Mr. Fox said, he had ever been of opinion, that a collusion
between a man and his wife to prove the adultery of the latter,
after that adultery had been committed, ought not to be any
bar to the passing of a divorce bill. He knew a very high law
authority had held the reverse, and On that single ground had
not only opposed several divorce bills, but in one case of fla-
grancy had been able to reject the application for a divorce,
and throw out the bill. This he thought a very great hard-
ship on the injured husband, because he thought the facility
of his producing evidence of the adultery of the wife, however
obtained, no objection to his claim for relief: but the mo-
ment he had taken up that opinion, he found it necessary to
take care to confine it merely to the husband and wife, and by
no means to suffer it to extend itself to the children. And the
reason of his feeling the necessity' of this precaution, arose from
considering how extremely hard it would be to suffbr children


;M 3




166 TERMS OF THE LOAN.


to be bastarized, deprived of their birthright, and rendered
infamous, merely because their father and mother had obtained
a legal divorce. That divorce might have been (as he was
ready to allow it should be) obtained by a collusion between
the father and mother; and, therefore, a collusion come into
by them, ought not to be a ground for bastardizing the child-
ren ; or the divorce might have been obtained by perjured evi-
dence, by false evidence, or by negligent evidence; which,
where there was no party to combat it, as must be the case
with helpless children, might have the full effect of the best
possible evidence. Upon all these reasons, he thought it un-
just to say, in a bill of that nature, more than that the man de-
served the relief he prayed for, and should have it. If the
husband wished to bastardize the children, and was convinced
they were spurious, let him resort to the courts below; they
Were open to him. He denied that the question of non-access
had been clearly established, and for that reason also, he
thought the House would go far beyond justice, if they de-
clared the children bastards. He took notice of the vulgar er-.
ror that prevailed, that non-access could not be proved, unless
it could be evinced that the husband or his wife were beyond
sea while she bred or bore children. That error, he conceived,
arose merely from the extreme difficulty of proving non-access
otherwise. Mr. Fox, in the course of his speech, expressly
declared, he had no motive whatever for taking the part he
did in the business, but a wish that those who were not before
the House, and could not defend themselves, might be done
strict justice to. He concluded by moving, that the whole
clause be rejected.


TERMS OF THE LOAN.


April t 6,


THE chancellor of the exchequer, Lord John Cavendish,brought forward the loan for the service of the current
year. The sum borrowed amounted to twelve million. Eleven
bankers, with whom the , terms of the loan were allotted, had
700,0001. each ; the remainder was divided amongst the rest of the
bankers, the great trading companies, and the clerks of the public
offices. The premium, according to the value of the stocks on the
day on which the bargain was concluded, was 31. xos. per cent.
but rising considerably within a few days after, much blame was
imputed to the minister for having made so disadvantageous a bar-


TERMS Or THE LOAN. 1,57


gain for the public. In vindication of himself, he allowed that the
premium was certainly much greater than ought to have been given
in time of peace, but he begged the House to recollect the circum-
stances under which he had been obliged to negotiate the loan.
He had only been ten days in office ; the late ministers had left
the treasury without a ; and the public service admitted of
no delay. These circumstances were well known to the money
lenders, and they had doubtless taken advantage thereof. And as
the necessity of coming to a conclusion on any terms would by
every day's delay have been the more urgent, they would certainly
have been raised upon him, the nearer that period approached.
The terms of the loan were strongly condemned by Mr. 'William
Pitt. Mr. Martin said, it was well known, that he had frequently
declared his sentiments in that House, against the admission of
members of parliament to a participation of any loan which govern-
ment might have occasion for. Having stated this, he thought
himself bound to mention, that the noble lord who negotiated the
loan, had sent to the House with which he was connected, ex-
pressing his good opinion of it, and informing his partners,
that the house should certainly be considered in the distri-
bution of the loan. Mr. Martin, as a member of parliament, dis-
claimed all idea of accepting any part of the loan ; but by that he
did not mean to exclude his partners from any profit they might
make, by taking a share of it in the regular course of business. He
however called God to witness, that should his partners partake of
the loan, he would by no means share any profits arising there-
from.


4


Mr. Secretary Fox rose, and before he entered into the
consideration of the terms of the loan, took notice of some
things that had been offered. Ile gave Mr. Martin credit for
having sent a very honourable


-
letter to his noble friend, but


declared, that, nevertheless, the same sum had been given to
the House, as had been intended before the letter was written
or sent to his noble friend, a pretty strong proof that the pro-
motion of ministerial influence was not the object that directed
his noble friend's conduct, when he, in a manner that spoke
his candour and his justice so strongly, determined . that the
bankers in general should have shares in the loan. With re-
gard to what had fallen from the right honourable gentleman


--


who had so strongly objected to the present loan, he differed
a good deal in some of the points:laid down by him, though
he agreed in others. If he was asked whether the present
loan, abstracted from all other considerations than the mere
terms, was a good peace-loan, he would answer in the nega-
tive; but if all the circumstances attending the negotiation
were taken into consideration, then he would contend that the
loan was better than might be expected. Be then entered
into calculations to disprove the assertion of Mr. Pitt, that


DI 4


[April 16. 783.3




68 TERMS OF THE LOAN. [April .16.
the premium amounted to 61. per cent. and he stated it to be
at this moment, at 3/. I os. 21d.; a premium infinitely greater
than it ought to be in peace-time; but still he did not think
that the public would lose more than sc,coo/. by the bargain;
a sum certainly not inconsiderable, but still not worth men-
tioning, when the committee should consider what inconve-
niences would flow from the circumstance of delaying the loan
till after the holidays. His noble friend had been appointed
chancellor of the exchequer on the 2d of April, and on the
16th he brings forward his loan. The delay of his predecessor
was undoubtedly the cause that the present loan was not far
more advantageous to the public; and therefore he was asto-
nished to hear a right honourable member find fault with the
terms, which, if they were bad, were so in consequence of his
own delay. The King's speech at the opening of the session
was full of promises of the greatest attention to the navy debt,
and to future loans. How had these fine promises been fulfilled
by the ministers ? No loan was made ; no plan for making a
good one laid down : the exigencies of the state required that
the loan should be made speedily ; and as they would not
brook delay, the terms could not, of course, be as good as if
.the loan had been made sooner : the right honourable gentle-
man had remained in office long after he declared that he
would quit it ; it was his duty surely either to have made the
loan in the mean-time, or by his resignation have made room
for some other who would have clone it : he did not mean to
throw blame on the right honourable member for staying in ;
he was not acquainted with his reasons; they might be very
good ; but he Was not a little surprised to hear him find fault
with the terms, which must have been better if he himself had
made the loan in time, or suffered another to make it a
month ago.


He begged leave to remind the right honourable gentle-
man of the different conduct of the noble lord Who went
out of the office of chancellor of the exchequer last year.
That noble lord, to the moment immediately previous to his
resignation, executed all the duties of the office of chancellor
of the exchequer. Had the right honourable gentleman fol-
lowed the noble lord's example, a loan on better terms might
have been had, and the public would have saved a con-
siderable sum. With regard to what the right honourable
gentleman had said of a competition, the loan of the last
year had been made in that manner, and he was persuaded,
that was a bad method. In the present instance, however,
there was no competition to resort to. The bankers had
formed such a strong connection, and acted so much in con-
cert, that there was no such thing as getting a set sufficiently


1783.] TERMS or THE LOAN. 169


opulent or powerful to oppose the set already connected.
With respect to the giving the Whole, Without reserve, to the
eleven bankers, who were to have seven millions seven hun-
dred thousand pounds of it, if that circumstance would have
got the public a better bargain, he would agree, it should
have been so clone. But the 'act was otherwise. To his
knowledge the condition was offered to the bankers, but they
would not abate their terms in consequence. So much,
therefore, for the right honourable gentleman's two better
ways of making a loan. In answer to his valuation of the
stocks, Mr. Fox said, he differed from the right honourable
gentleman. He allowed that the bonus, if without the dis-
count, it amounted to 4os. was too much : but he contended, that
putting each stock at its highest price, the bonus could not be
swelled to more than five pounds, whereas the right .honour-.
able gentleman made it six, and then with a degree of fancy
and imagination, which by no means ought to be exercised
on such a subject as that of a loan, called it a'bonus of six or
seven per cent. Mr. Fox also said, if his noble friend even
had the bonus of three millions to give away, it would only
have amounted to 18o,coo/. and not to 240,0001. as stated by
the right honourable gentleman. After arguing this Very
closely, and resorting to a variety of calculations and inge-
nious reasonings upon the doctrines of chance, as to the rise
and fall of the price of the funds, Mr. Fox took a kind of side-
wind notice of the opposition that had been given elsewhere
to the Irish Judicature bill. He- said the right honourable
gentleman had disappointed him. He had expected that he
would have called for the performance of all the notable pro-
mises in the King's speech, relative to raising loans in future
in such a way, that at the same time that they were raised a
fund should be provided for paying them oft: It would not
have been more extraordinary to have expected the present
ministry to have fulfilled all the flowery professions and pro-
mises of the last, than when they tried to pass a bill of theirs,
which they found on coming into office in an advanced parlia-
mentary stage, and about which scarcely any thing had been
said, when it was first brought in, for the adherents and sup-
porters of the last ministry to call upon them to state the rea-
sons upon which the bill had been originally introduced.
Having entered into an able discussion of the question of
long and short annuities, and contended very strenuously,
that the mode adopted by his noble friend of borrowing the
money upon an addition to funds already established rather
than on new funds, was by far the wisest method, he concluded
with repeating, that the badness of the present loan was ascrib-




570 TERMS OF THE LOAN. [April 25. 1783.] MOTION FOR A REFORM IN PARLIAMENT. 171
able to the shortness of the time in which it had been made,
and that the late ministry Were solely to blame for that cir-
cumstance.


In the course of this. debate, Mr. Pitt and Mr. Secretary Fox
were up several times. In one of his speeches, Mr. Pitt said, that
the right honourable secretary's reasoning on borrowing money to
increase the capital already owing, rather than with a view of re-
demption, was the reasoning of a gambler, who borrows despe-
rately, without meaning ever to repay the principal.


Mr. Secretary Fox replied with great keenness, and declared
the reverse of the proposition was the fact; for whether he
was or was not to be called a gambler for it, he should ever
advert to the doctrine of chances, and maintain, that borrow-
ing money on extravagant and disadvantageous terms, from a
vain hope of being able soon to- discharge that, which there
was not the smallest probability of being able to redeem, was
much more in the style of reasoning customarily held by gam-
blers; and the argument on which he should ever be governed
in public loans, was that the redemption being in the option
of the borrower, and not at the discretion of the lender, the
borrower holds the alternative either of redeeming at a fair
price, or of keeping the lender out of his principal.


25.


Mr. Secretary Fox said, as often as the badness of the pre-
sent loan was objected to, so often, whether the right honour-
able gentleman liked it or disliked it, would he state the , fact,
, tnat it was not imputable to the present administration, but


to the hurry in which it was made. "With regard to the rea-
sons that had induced the late administration to stay in till the
last moment, he could not argue upon them, because he did
not know them ; he did not, therefore; charge the right ho-
nourable gentleman, nor any body else, with criminality for
their conduct, because possibly the right honourable gentle-
man and others, might have very good reasons for it, but he
would leave it to the candour, to the justice, to the honour,
and to the common sense of every man who heard him, whether
it was not manifest, that the extreme hurry and difficulty,
under which the loan had been made by his noble friend, was
in a great measure to be considered as the reason, why the
terms of it were not better. If that was not the case, all the


uarament on the idea that the last administration occasionedn
that hurry, fell to the ground ; but that being the case, it was
fair for him to state, that the right honourable gentleman's


staying in office till the last, the very last day, as it were, before
a loan must be made, was more the cause of its being a bad
Joan, than any want of endeavours of his noble friend to make
a better. Mr. Pox said, as he was talking of a bad loan, it
put him in mind of the peace, for it occurred to him, that the
same cause occasioned the badness of both, namely, their
being obliged to be made by a certain day. The loan, the
committee knew,. must be made before Easter, and the peace
must be made by the meeting of parliament; the hurry in
which both were made, had rendered each, like every thing
done in a hurry, liable to much objection.


MR. PITT'S MOTION FOR A REFORM IN PARLIAMENT.


May 7.


T`HIS day Mr.William Pitt made his promised motion respecting a
Reform in the parliamentary representation. As the mode of pro-


ceeding by a committee, proposed last year, had formed one of the
principal objections against the reform itself, he thought it more ad-
visable to bring forward some specific propositions: these were,
" I. That it was the opinion of the House, that measures werehighly
necessary to be taken for the future prevention of bribery and ex-
pence at elections. z. That for the future when the majority of
votes for any borough shall be convicted of gross and notorious
corruption before a select committee of that House, appointed to
try the merits of any election, such borough should be disfran-
chised, and the minority of voters, not so convicted, should be
entitled to vote for the county in which such borough should be
situated. 3. That an addition of knights of the shire, and of re-
presentatives of the metropolis, should be added to the state of
the representation." He left the number for future discussion, but
said he should propose one hundred. The motion was opposed by
Mr. Powys, Lord Mulgrave, Lord North, Mr. Welbore Ellis, and
Mr. Rigby. Amongst the converts to the question appeared Mr.
Thomas Pitt, and Mr. Dundas, the Lord Advocate of Scotland.
It was also supported by Sir George Savile, Mr. Byng, Mr. Beau-
foy, Mr. Fox, Mr. Sheridan, and the Earl of Surrey.


Mr. Secretary Fox rose, and remarked to the House, that
he made no doubt there were some persons present who
would attribute what he said to lukewarmness, and not to




a


MOTION FOR A REFORM IN PARLIAMENT. [May 7.
zeal ; however, regardless of their censure, he would freely
deliver his sentiments, and assure the House that he most
heartily concurred with the right honourable gentleman who
made the motion, that the constitution required some reform,
and so far from its being absurd to make any innovation on it,
he was certain that the nature of our constitution required in-
novation and renovation ; for the beauty of the constitution
did not consist, as some people imagined, in theory, but in
practice. He knew it was the common and the popular
opinion, that our constitution was beautiful in theory, but all
corrupt in practice. Singular as his sentiment might be upon
the subject, he made no scruple to avow, that he looked to
the reverse as the true description of our constitution, and
thought it admirable in practice, but imperfect and very
faulty in theory. The theory was in its nature found
by experience to be absurd in several parts ; for, as it was
composed of three estates, king, lords, and commons, it was
absurd to think that one man should have an equal power to
the whole multitude; therefore, in the practical part, that
power , was wisely curtailed, and not left in the breast of one
man, but in a government consisting of several ministers. He
Regarded it as one of its chief excellencies, that it involved a
renovating principle in itself, and by being capable of re-
peated improvement, admitted the possibility of its being from
time to time carried to a degree of perfection beyond which
no human idea could go.


The right honourable secretary said much had been men-
tioned relative to the shortening the duration of parliaments,
and some persons attributed all our calamities to the want of
short parliaments. He had looked into history, and found
that when parliaments were more frequent, the nation was
more brilliant and successful ; he had also observed, that for
a period of ninny years since the passing of the septennial bill,
the nation had been at the pinnacle of its glory, therefore he
could infer nothing from that, nor did he, in fact, see that
this was material either way. The noble lord (North) in talk-
ing of the American war, had said it was popular in the be-


b. , that •ginning that i had been begun agreeably to the wishes of the
people, and. carried on by their consent until it proved unsuc-
cessful, when a stop was put to it. He differed with him ; for
although it had undoubtedly been begun by their wishes, the
people were for putting an end to it much sooner than it was
ended; and there he saw the defect of the House of Com-
mons; it did not speak the wishes of the people quick enough.
He begged leave to revert to the two hypotheses mentioned
by Mr. Thomas Pitt, wherein he said the despotism of the
crown had continued a minister in power against the wishes


1783.] MOTION ,FOR A REFORM IN PARLIAMENT. 173
of the people; and the republicanism of the people had, in
grasping for power, taken the crown captive, and robbed it
of its prerogative. Certainly, in the course of two years,
something like that had happened ; but he denied that, in all
the contentions he had held, and the systematic opposition,
as it had been called, that he gave to the noble lord, that ever
he struggled for power.


With respect to what the noble lord had said, that by ad-
ding more knights for the counties, the landed would over
match the commercial interest; he could by no means see that
to be the fact; for commerce now had spread itself so uni-
versally, that the landed and the commercial interests were
inseparable, therefore he was not afraid of any harm in that
quarter; nor did he fear much from the aristocracy that would
be occasioned : for although the motion went to a resolution
to add more members to the counties and capital, it by no
means confined gentlemen from making any wise regulations
in the bill that would be brought in, if the motion was car-
ried; and he should not probably be for adding them all to
the counties and capital, but should be for giving some to
the large towns of Birmingham, Manchester, &c. in order to
make the representation more equal.


He next touched on the offer of Mr. Thomas Pitt to give
up his borough of Old Sarum : it had a great sound, he said;
but in all those fine flourishes which gentlemen took, the
House should consider well the nature of the proposal. The
honourable gentleman had made an offer that he knew could
not be accepted, therefore the merit was not so great as it
appeared. There were many persons who were against the
motion, because it was an innovation ; yet they were perfectly
agreeable to innovations; they were not against what was al-
most a new doctrine, he meant an interposition of the other
House with respect to money bills ; there, merely for the
spirit of opposition, persons attempted to meddle with what
they were totally ignorant of, as was plain to be seen by their
conduct. [Mr. Fox here alluded to what the Earl of Shel-
burne had said of the right of the House of Lords to alter
money bills.] There one noble lord had argued about lottery
tickets, in a manner that could not help being ridiculed ;
another noble lord had attempted to prove, that borrowing
money lessened a debt ; in fact, this must be the case, where
persons officiously meddled with what did not concern them,
and talked of things in a place where they had no right to
talk of them.


The right honourable secretary entered? into a strong vin-
dication of the Yorkshire and other committees from the sneer
that had been cast on them by Mr. Powys, for the specula-




T. 74 MOTION FOR. A razonm IN PARLIAMENT. [May 7.
tive points they had thrown out. He wished the House to
recollect, that Sydney, Locke, and others writing on the con-
stitution, had speculated far beyond what was practicable;
yet much good resulted from their speculations, and they were
great helps to the practical beauty of which we so much
boasted. He would not run into a long history of a crooked
leg, in which the honourable gentleman had conducted him-
self but lamely ; but he would, in imitation of him, make a
simile, and compare the constitution of the country to that
of an individual ; it was exactly the same; it was to be fed,
it was to be nourished, it was to exist by nutriment, and
would undoubtedly be liable to disorders. Suppose the pa-
tient had a fever and was to call for water, the physician
would not be bound to comply with his request,' but would
mix up something that would nourish, that would be moist,
and that would quench the thirst, and not have the evil ten-
dency that water would ; so it was the duty of that House
to administer for the relief of the constitution, not exactly
as called for by the wild, extravagant doctrine of letting every
man who was not a fool or a madman vote, but by taking
some wise, salutary steps that would redress the grievances
complained of. He entered very fully into the nature of the
constitution, expressed himself a warm friend to a reform,
saying, that mankind were made for themselves, not for others;
and that it was the best government where the people had
the greatest share in it. He could have wished, that a corn,
mittee had been appointed similar to that moved for last year,
as he did not think the present motion would go far enough;
but as he was confident it would be an amendment, he should
give it his hearty support.


At two in the morning the House divided on Mr. Powys's mo-
tion, That the orders of the day be now read:


Tellers. Tellers.
YEAS Mr. Eden 293. -- No ES Lord Mahon 1Mr. J. Robinson Mr. Byng 149"


Majority against Mr. Pitt's motion 144.


1783.3


BILL FOR REGULATING, &C. I 75


BILL FOR REGULATING CERTAIN OFFICES IN THE
EXCHEQUER.


July
TN the committee on the bill for regulating certain offices in the
I exchequer, the chancellor, Lord John Cavendish, proposed, that
after the interest of the present auditors and tellers of the exche-
quer, and of the clerk of the pells, in the respective places, should
cease and determine, the salaries of those officers in future should
be fixed and certain, and as follow : the place of auditor 4,0001. a
year; each tellership 2,7ool.; clerkship of the pells 3,0001.; the
place of deputy to each of the four tellers i,000l. ; the deputy to
the clerk of the pells 800l.; and the receiver under him zoo/.
These regulations occasioned a debate. Mr. Pulteney strongly
objected to granting the tellers more than the amount of their
peace-emoluments ; but more particularly laid his finger on the
proposed increase of salary of the tellers' deputies or chief clerks.
He talked of the great influence the bill would throw into the scale
of the crown, and moved, " That the blanks in the bill be filled
with the words four hundred pounds' instead of one thousand."
Mr. William Pitt said, that since it was avowed that the tellership
ofthe exchequer were sinecures, he could not, by any means, con-
sent that the clerks should have i000/. a year. The honourable
gentleman, who had just spoken, had stated, that all the actual bu-


,
smess had been done for 4001. To what purpose, then give away
600l. a year ? There was something so barefaced, something so
unreasonable in the idea, that he could not but concur with the
honourable gentleman in his motion, since neither natural inclina-
tion, a necessary attention to the state of the country, nor the least
regard to a conscientious discharge of his duty as a member ofpar-
liament, would suffer him to vote away the public money so unwar-
rantably. Mr. Pitt talked of the petitions of the people for re-
form ; and asked what would be the opinion without doors of con-
duct like that the House were then advised to pursue ? The prin-
cipal offices in the exchequer were in the face of day declared to
be sinecures. The offices of the four tellers were indisputably
sinecures, and it was now proposed to pay them 2700/. a year for
themselves, and to give their deputies, whom they themselves ap-
pointed, 'odd. a year ! This was a degree of extravagant and im-
provident expenditure of the public money, to which he never could
consent ; he therefore concurred entirely with the honourable gen-
tleman near him. Nay, his ideas went farther ; he thought the emo-
luments of the other places were stated at a much higher rate than
they ought to be. He had no notion of swelling the emoluments
ofsinecures unnecessarily and inordinately ; he should therefore ob-
jaeocait ntsot it.the whole of the clause as amended, and give his vote


Mr. Secretary Fox said, that the principle of the bill was
not so much to reduce the salaries of' these offices, as to pre-




S76 BILL FOR REGULATING


[July 4,
vent the emoluments arising from them from encreasing with
the public burdens, and the holders of them from being
enriched in proportion as the public should grow poorer ; and
therefore the fixed salaries moved for by his noble friend, were
perfectly in unison with the principle of the bill. As to the
four deputies, he thought the salary of i 000l. each far from
being too much, because their offices were by no means sine-
cures; and as they held places of very great trust, none but
persons of considerable character ought to be employed in
them; and for such persons 40o/. a year would be too inconsi-
derable a salary. He said, if the bill had purported to be a
bill principally brought in for the purpose of effecting that
kind of reform which had economy merely in view, he should,
for one, subscribe to the sort of arguments he had heard
against it; but the chief object of the bib was of another nature.
His noble friend had proposed it, in order to put an end to a
matter that was in itself extremely odious, and had been much,
and, in his opinion, very justly complained of; the
existence of offices, the holders of which received an encrease
of emolument in proportion as the expellees of the country en-
creased, and , who grew rich upon the aggravation of the pub-
lic burden, and the public distress. That was the chief aim
of the bill ; and that, as the clause was proposed to be amended,
it fully and completely answered. With regard to the influ-
ence of the crown, much as he was an enemy to the encrease
of any undue influence, he was convinced, that it was impos-
sible for the government of a great kingdom to go on, unless
it had certain lucrative and honourable situations to bestow
on its officers in a peculiar line, as a provision for their fa-
milies, and a reward for their eminent and distinguished ser-
vices. Of this sort were the places in the exchequer, which,
though it might be necessary to lessen their inordinate emolu-
ments in times and seasons when they undoubtedly ought not
to encrease, yet care ought to be taken, not to pare them
so close, or to lower them so much as to render them
unworthy the acceptance or expectations of great and distin-
guished characters. In putting the tellers at 27001. his noble
friend had barely put them above their average peace-amount;
and he made 'no doubt but his noble friend meant no more.
The encrease, however, was so trilling, that it was not worth
disputing about. With regard to the argument, that giving
the clerk I cool. was in fact giving the principal I cool. in ad-
dition to this 2 7 001. that went upon so narrow and mean an
idea, that he knew not how to answer it. If those who held
the offices of tellers were base and sordid enough to stoop
to such a meanness, no bar the legislature had in its power to
provide, could possibly prevent it. Certain he, vas, three of


33•] OFFICES IN THE EXCHEQUER. 1 77
the present tellers would not demean themselves in so scanda-
lous a manner, but would spurn at any such proposition. And
indeed, the argument went so far, that if it were admitted,
there was scarce an official deputy in the kingdom whose prin-
cipal would not become liable to the same sort of imputa-
tion. The same thing might also be said of the secretary
of state, for instance, and of the two secretaries to the
treasury.; but would any man presume to hint an insinuation,
that at any time, under any administration, a bargain of the
nature m question had been driven ? He believed that man
was not to be found who would venture upon such an accusa-
tion ; why, then, feel an alarm upon such an account now ?
As a bill of influence, the present, undoubtedly, gave the crown
some influence ; but he believed it would be admitted to be a
sort of influence the least dangerous of any that could possibly
exist. To put a man in such a situation, as that the crown
should never be able to be useful to him, was, in his opinion,
a very foolish and unwise thing; but to put a man into such a
situation, as that it should be out of the power of the crown to
be hurtful to him, might, in a variety of instances, be necessary
and useful. He knew of no way of doing this more effectually,
than by giving a man an independent situation for life. In
this view he professed himself a friend to the bill; and a
stronger argument that his majesty's present ministers had no
views of a personal nature in making the salaries of the tellers
27001. a year, need not be resorted to, than a consideration of
who the present tellers were. Three of them, Lord Northing-
ton, Lord Temple, and an honourable and respectable member
of that House, ifr . Pratt, younger men than his majesty's
ministers ! The other teller, unhappily, might not be so good
a life; but then it was pretty well known, that it was promised
to a person not much older than any of his majesty's present
servants. He desired, in what he said, of the necessity of one


-


sort of influence remaining, not to be understood to extend
his ideas as far, as he had heard arguments of that nature car-
ried in another place. He had heard it said, that if the in-
fluence of the crown was too much diminished, men of despe-
rate fortunes, needy adventurers, and distressed politicians,
would be the only persons who would accept of the govern-
ment of the country. There was, he owned, something a little
strange in the argument, that men of large property and con-
siderable estates could not afford to serve their country as
cheap, as those who were less affluent. He was willing, how-
ever, to take the argument upon the grounds on which it had
been placed ; and since speaking of himself, he certainly could
not pretend to be a rich man, he was glad to hear it allowed,
thatosL.uch


as he could afford to serve the country cheaperCOL.




1 7 8
BILL FOR REGULATING [July


than men of greater affluence. In the present bill, however,
he did not think it right to take away all those emoluments,
which those who had reasoned in the manner he had stated,
thought so essential to remain. The noble and learned lord
might be assured, he envied him none of those emoluments,
nor any affluence that he could derive from office.


Mr. Pulteney's amendment was negatived. After this discussioiA
Mr. Rigby being anxious to protect the promise of a tellership
which had been given to Lord Thurlow, rose up to propose a clause
with that view. He reminded the House that Lord Thurlow, when
he quitted the profession and accepted the office of lord chan-
cellor, obtained from his majesty the promise of a tellership in the-
exchequer. This promise bad been made in the year 1778 ; and
he trusted that Lord Thurlow had a title to expect a reversion of a
tellership fully and beneficially. He therefore intended to bring
up a clause " to exempt the case of Edward Lord Thurlow from the
operation of the bill ; his majesty having, in the year 1778, pro-
mised to the said Lord Thurlow, on his accepting the office of lord
high chancellor, a reversion of a tellership of the exchequer, in as
large and beneficial a manner as tellerships were then enjoyed."


Mr. Secretary Fox said, it was difficult for the mind always'
to discriminate between motives public and personal. In
question likelike the present, it was purely personal; and to
speak on a question purely personal was certainly extremely
disagreeable; he nevertheless thought it his duty to state to
the House the true nature of the question, and then let the
Committee adopt or reject it, as they thought proper. The
right honourable gentleman who had proposed to move the
clause, and his noble colleague, had declared they could not
account for the noble and learned lord in question having de-
clined to accept the offer of a tellership when it was first made
him. They Would forgive him, if he declared that the me:
did not appear to him altogether so inexplicable. IN hee
the offir was\ first made, one reversion of a tellership was a:-
141y granted ; was it, therefore, to be wondered at, that
the noble and learned lord should not think a second reversion
quite so good a thing as might possibly conic within his reach?
They all knew that it was an unusual thing to grant a second
reversion, and for the best reason in the'world, namely, be-
cause sueli a grant was generally deemed of little value; and,
perhaps, under the peculiar circumstances under which i[
had been made to Lord Thurlow, (with two very young men
in possession, a third young man in reversion, and the first
teller at that time, to all appearance, a good life) it was o f
less value than at any other time-it could have been. Was it
to be wondered at that the noble and learned lord should have


111


1783.]
OFFICES IN THE EXCHEQUER. 179


since changed his mind ? Certainly it was not; circumstances
bad altered materially : one of the possessors was dead, and
another very infirm. Who could be surprised, then, as the
object seemed more attainable, that the noble and learned
lord should have changed his mind, and grown more willing
to accept a reversion in proportion as the object approached
nearer? But it had happened, that the House of Commons,
in the interim, had thrown a difficulty in the way, by coming
to that resolution which the right honourable gentleman had
stated. All that could be clone had been done by the last
ministry, anti a very extraordinary proceeding that was ; such
a proceeding, he believed, as had never been heard of before.
They had introduced the royal promise into the wording of
the patent, granting the noble and learned lord, what was
generally termed a floating pension, being a pension to be
neld and enjoyed by him till such time as the tellership should
fall in. But even in doing this, the late ministry (who might
naturally be supposed to be as well inclined to serve Lord
Thurlow as their ability would allow) had manifested, that it
was their clear and decided opinion, that the royal promise
must be subject to such restrictions and limitations as parlia-
ment should thereafter think fit to make respecting the teller-
ihips of the exchequer ; and, indeed, they had worded the
recognition of that promise in the patent, in phrases expressly
stating that such was their opinion. Mr. Fox produced an
extract from the patent, and read the sentence to the commit-
tee which described the promise, and the extent in-which it
was intended to be fulfilled. After commenting upon the
novelty or introducing the mention of any such matter in a,
patent, and arguing upon the conclusive argument, that
Lord Thurlow's reversion was, in the sense of the late minis-
try, to be liable to the future restrictions and limitations of
parliament, which the patent itself held out, he said he had
listened with the utmost attention to what had fallen from the
right honourable gentleman, and especially to the proviso he
had read, with a view to discover upon what principle lie
meant to rest his motion. It was clear, however, that it was
in that right honourable gentleman's own opinion an applica-
tion grounded on no one principle whatever, nor on the
smallest scintilla of a principle. The proviso expressly stated
the exemption for Edward Lord Thurlow ; nor was it in the
right honourable gentleman's power to put it on any other
ground whatever.


• The House, therefore, would consider,
that in the present case, there was no grant of a reversion to
Plead upon : it was submitted to their consideration whether
they should go out of their way to do a favour to Edward
Lord Thurlow : and if they chose to adopt a proviso 1OUIlded,


N 2




183 BILL FOR REGULATING [July 4.
on no principle, but merely stated as the case of Edward
Lord Thurlow, they undoubtedly had a right to do so. He
meant not to press his arguments upon them, nor to urge
them to reject the clause, should it be moved. It was his duty
to state to them what the motion really was that they were
about to have made, and having clone so, he should leave it
entirely to their judgment to act respecting it as they thought
proper. Mr. Fox, in the course of his speech declared, that
lie spoke from no motive of resentment whatever. Gentlemen
might imagine, that certain severe reflections personally made
upon him by the noble and learned lord of late, in consequence
of their having a difference in respect to political opinion, and
what had passed elsewhere, might have soured his mind, and
rendered him adverse to the clause. He assured the commit-
tee he spoke from no such motives ; and though the noble and
learned lord had thought proper to say, that when the crown
was stripped of its power of reward, none but desperate and
needy adventurers would accept of office, he did assure that
noble lord's friends, that he by no means wished to deny him
any share of that affluence which he seemed to consider as so
essential a qualification for office.


The proviso of Mr. Rigby was agreed to without a division. But
though he was thus successful in a committee upon the bill, on the
report of the Committee being presented to the House, his efforts
for Lord Thurlow were less ibrtunate. To give the greater
strength to his proviso, he had expressed it in new language, and
rested it on the foundation, that in the patent for Lord Thurlow's
pension, his majesty had been pleased to promise the place of a
tellership of the exchequer to him when he accepted the office of
lord chancellor. He did not know whether he was to call his
noble friend's pretension to the exemption a-promise or a bar-
gain ; but he hoped it would appear to the House, as it had con-
vinced the Committee, that it was such a pretension as was well en-
titled to the protection of parliament.


Mr. Secretary Fox said, he would not object to the motion,.
provided any eithe friends of Lord Thurlow would get up and
say, that they claimed this for him as a bargain, and not as a
promise. He- had understood that this was admitted on Fri-
day, and it was in consequence of so understanding, that he
had given up his opposition, and consented to receive the
clause that had been then moved. Let him hear the same
avowed now, and he would not oppose the motion ; but one
of two things must be cleared up ; it either was a promise or
a bargain. If a bargain, as he had just declared, there could
be no objection to the clause passing as now proposed ; if a
promise, theca the sense of the House must be taken. ge


I 7 8 3 . 11 OFFICES IN THE EXCHEQUER. 18 1


pressed this the more urgently, because that House and the
public had been so unfairly dealt with upon the subject. It
had long been made a boast of as a great merit in the noble
and learned lord, that he had accepted the seals uncondition-
ally; and on Friday last his friends had declared the noble
lord had made a bargain for a tellership as the price of the
situation he quitted when he took the seals. Both these things
could not be true ; nor had the noble and learned lord any
right to take all the merit of the one, and all the advantage of
the other. He declared himself an enemy to all impostures, and
therefore it was that he wanted to come atthe fact. lithe friends
a the noble lord avowed it to havebeen a bargain, they had a
right to the exemption. If they placed Lord Thurlow on su-
perior ground, and said, it was (what he believed it to have
been, and what his majesty himself described it to have been,
in the patent in which he recognised it) an unsolicited and
spontaneous promise on the part of his majesty, they stood
upon very different grounds indeed, and it would be for the
House to decide whether such an exemption should be made
or not. If it was a bargain, the noble lord had an indisputa-
ble claim to it; if he claimed it as a promise, then surely he
must take it in the words of his patent — " subject to such re-
gulations as our parliament may hereafter adopt." For his
part, he would not suffer any man to avail himself of the
merit of having taken the great seal without any bargain or
stipulation, and come afterwards to parliament to claim an
exemption from certain regulations on the ground of having
made a bargain. He denied that he had pledged himself to
adopt the clause in the manner stated by the right honourable
gentleman. He had, indeed, consented to receive the clause
that night in the committee; but he had by no means bound
himself down to agree to the amendment of that clause that
should be proposed in the House on the report : nor was he
now disposed to agree to it, but on one condition he had
stated, and that was — let some friend of the noble and learned
lord get up and avow, that the noble and learned lord had
bargained for the tellership when he took the seals. He con-
cluded by saying, that if the clause should be said to be
founded on a bargain, he would not oppose it; but if on a
promise, he would take the sense of the House upon it, as it
was not worded according to the manner in which the pro-
mise was expressed in the patent.


The proviso agreed to in the committee was rejected by the
House ; and on Mr. Rigby's clause, declaring " That nothing in
the act contained shall extend to affect any grant which may be


N 3




182 PUBLIC ACCOUNTANTS. [July Ie. 1783.] PUBLIC =ACCOUNTANTS. 1 83
made to Edward Lord Thurlow, of a reversion of a tellership of
the exchequer," the House divided :


Tellers.
Mr. Rigby 1 Mr. ByngYEAS -NOES IMr. Kenyon C 49 Mr. Sheridan J 57•


So it passed in the negative. Mr. Hussey then moved the
following clause, " That the officers of the exchequer shall receive
no greater emoluments in time of war than in time of peace."


Mr. Secretary Fox opposed the clause ; he declared, that
he would not touch places that had been considered as free-
holds, and negotiated as personal property. , Of all the influ-
ence of the crown, he knew of no species of influence so much
to be dreaded as the influence of terror. Those who pro,:
fessed themselves the warmest and most strenuous advocates
for extending the influence of the crown of another kind, were,
he believed, as adverse as he was to this influence of terror,
because they knew that if it were suffered to be exercised in
one instance, it would be exercised in many others, and in
short that it would shake the whole kingdom. He therefore
was determined to resist it wherever the attempt was made to
exert it. He said farther, that in all matters of reform, it
was necessary and wise to begin in as broad and intelligible a
manner as possible : he presumed his noble friend had chosen
in the present bill to save whole and entire the rights of all
those persons, now in possession of places in the exchequer,
for this reason : and to fix the time for the operation of the
bill to commence, at the period of the lives of such persons as
were in actual possession of the offices it went to affect. He
thought the idea a wise one, and being persuaded, that any
attempt to alter it would produce a bad elect, and the attempt
now made the worst effect possible, he should give the motion
for leave to bring up the clause his positive negative.


The clause was negatived without a division.


PUBLIC ACCOUNTANTS.


July to.


-
TN conformity to the order of the House, Lord John Cavendish


-a- laid before them a book containing a " List of the Public Ac-
countants who have received Public Money by way of Imprest,
and upon Account, and who have not yet accounted for the same,
and of those Persons from whom Balances of declared Accounts
are still due." The moment the book was laid upon the table, and


II


before any one had time to look into it, Mr. William Pitt rose to
make a motion upon it. He said that from the book that had beenjust laid upon the table, it appeared that forty-four millions of thepublic money had been issued to public accountants, who had not
passed any account whatever for these sums before the auditors of
the imprest : he did not wish to be understood to mean that such a
sum was due to the public, and might be recovered ; he did not
believe there was even an hundredth part of it that was due or re-
coverable ; nay, he knew that many of the persons who stood as
debtors to the public, in the book then on the table, had actually
passed their accounts before the treasury; nay, that in the
case of contracts, the money had actually been due, before it
had been issued from the , exchequer, because the service to
which the contractors were bound by their contracts, had
been performed before the issuing of the money : but still
though the money had been accounted for . in substance, it had not
been accounted for in form, because the accounts had not passed
before the auditors of the iniprest : this, he said, might be an ar-
gument against the present forms of passing accounts in the ex-
chequer, as such a length of time must necessarily elapse before
they were likely to be called for, that in the mean time the
money might be dissipated. He said, that it might be proper
to pass an act of parliament to operate as a quietus to the
representatives of accountants, to whom money had been is-
sued fifty years ago, and where the vouchers for the expendi-
ture might, through lapse of time, have been lost ; but on the
other hand, it would be as proper to compel accountants of a
later date to pass their accounts, and pay such balances as should
he due to the public. He concluded, by moving, " that an hum-
ble Address be presented to his majesty, representing to his ma-
jesty; that it appears that large sums of money, which have at dif-
ferent times, and many of them very long since, been paid for
public services to sub-accountants, amounting in the whole to
above forty-four millions, have not yet been accounted for before
the auditors of. the Imprest ; and that though many of them may
have been otherwise accounted for in the course of office, yet
others, to a very large amount, have not. been accounted for at alt.
That it appears to this House to be of the utmost importance, that
all public accounts should be brought forward with as little delay
as possible, and that therefore they do humbly beseech his majesty
to be graciously pleased to give directions, that the most effectual
measures should be taken to enquire concerning the persons to
whom the said sums have been issued, or their legal representa-
tives, and particularly those to whom money has been issued in
the course of the late expensive war, and to take measures in all
cases where there shall appear to be sufficient ground to compel
them in due course of law to account for the same ; and that
this House will in due time co-operate in such measure as may, on
full deliberation, appear to be proper, in order to prevent the like
delays for the future." Mr. Grenville seconded the motion. Mr.
Sheridan moved two amendments to the motion. The one was to
leave out the words " it appears to this House," and insert in their


N 4




184 ?metre ACCOUNTANTS. [July 10.
stead the following, " this House having reason to believe ;" the
other to leave out the specific sum of forty-four millions, so that
the phrase would run generally that great sums, &c. had been
issued, and had not been accounted for.


Mr. Secretary Fox said, he would adopt the amendments
in preference to the original motion, because he preferred
truth to falsehood ; it was true that he had reason to believe
()Teat sums were still to be accounted for; but it would be




a falsehood to assert, when no authentic document was before
the House, that " it appears" to the House, that great sums
arc still unaccounted for; and still more false would it be to
state these sums to amount to forty-four millions. But the
right honourable member probably had his views for stating a
specific sum; such, probably, as those persons had, who
when his noble relation (the late Lord Holland) had about
400,0001. of the public money in his hands, called him the
public defaulter of unaccounted millions ; and said, that
he had forty millions still in his hands to account for. Fifty
millions of public money unaccounted for, had been roundly
asserted to be the sum that the motion of the 28th of Fe-
bruary would bring to light. The right honourable gen-
tleman, who made the motion, had now chosen to say, he
had talked only of forty-nine millions, and lo ! the book
upon the table, in proof of the authenticity of which the
House had heard so much from the other side of the House,
stated only forty-four millions, of which the right honourable
gentleman had himself declared, he did not think the " one
hundredth part" of the sum was recoverable, or much of
it due. Having put this in a point of view that flashed con-
viction with it, Mr. Fox took notice of the manner in which -
the book had been brought forward, and said, if he were
obliged to pass an opinion on the fact, he should certainly
declare, that his noble friend did wrong to present the book
at all. His noble friend's well-known, extreme candour,
and his wish on all occasions to please every person, added.
to the idea, that producing such a book might gratify the
curiosity of the House, were certainly reasons that obviously
accounted for his noble friend's having been induced to
present the book at the bar. But if he had been consulted,
he should certainly have advised the noble lord not tohave
brought it in; and he was persuaded, if his noble friend had
taken more time to consider of the matter, and it had oc-
curred to his mind, that so ill a use was likely to be made
of the book, when presented, he would have been of the same
opinion. After urging this very strongly, Mr. Fox observed,
that it was a little extraordinary that the right' honourable


IO


I783.] ADAMS ON TIM KING'S SPEECH. 18s


gentleman who moved the address, and his friends who sup-
ported it, should so loudly and so vehemently complain that
ministers were averse to enquiry, and that they were de-
termined to oppose every proposition of reform, when neither
his honourable friend who had proposed the amendments,
nor any other person who had spoken in favour of them,
had made the least opposition to the main object of the ad-
dress. To that nobody objected. The amendments would
neither prejudice or diminish it. Considered as an enquiry,
with a view to prospective regulation, the book upon the
table was every way adequate. If the enquiry was meant
to be retrospective, undoubtedly the book was not a ground
of sufficient authenticity to rest a proceeding upon. But,
what purpose would it answer to go into a retrospective
enquiry, where there was so small a hope of benefit?


The amendments were adopted, and the address as amended,
agreed to.


ADDRESS ON THE KING'S SPEECH AT THE OPENING or THE
SESSION.


November
THE King the session with the following speech toopened


both Houses:
" My lords and gentlemen; I have the satisfaction to inform


you that definitive treaties of peace have been concluded with
the courts of France and Spain, and with the United States of
.America. Preliminary articles have been also ratified with the
States General of the united provinces. I have ordered these
several treaties to be laid before you; and I am happy to add,
that I have no cause to doubt but that all those powers agree
with me in my sincere inclination to keep the calamities of war
at a great distance.— The objects which are to be brought under
your deliberation, will sufficiently explain my reasons for calling
you together after so short a recess. Enquiries of the utmost
importance have been long and diligently pursued, and the fruit
of them will be expected. The situation of the East India com-
pany will require the utmost exertions of your wisdom to maintain
and improve the valuable advantages derived from our Indian
possessions, and to promote and secure the happiness of the native
inhabitants of those provinces. — The season of peace will call
upon you for an attention to every thing which can recruit the
strength of the nation, after so long and so expensive a war. —
The security and increase of the revenue, in the manner least




i86


ADDRESS ON THE KING'S SPEECH. [Nov. i r.


burthenSome to my 'subjects, will be amongst your first objects.
In many essential parts it has suffered : dangerous frauds have
prevailed, and alarming outrages have been committed. Exer-
tions have not been wanting to repress this daring spirit, nor pains
to enquire into its true causes. In any instances in which the
powers of government may not be equal to its utmost care and
vigilance, I have no doubt that the wisdom of my parliament will
provide such remedies as may be found wanting for the accom-
plishment of purposes, in which the material interests of this nation
are so deeply concerned.


" Gentlemen of the House of Commons ; I have ordered the
estimates of the expences for the year to be laid before you.
From those you will perceive the reduction which I have made
in all the establishments, which appear to me to be brought as
low as prudence will admit ; and you will participate with me in
the satisfaction which I feel in this step towards the relief of my
subjects. At the end of a war some part of its weight must ine-
vitably be borne for a time. I feel for the burthens of my people :
but I rely on that fortitude which has hitherto supported this
nation under many difficulties, for their bearing those, which the
present exigencies require, and which are so necessary for the full
support of the national credit.


" My lords,. and gentlemen ; in many respects our situation is
new. Your counsels will provide what is called for by that situa-
tion ; and your wisdom will give permanence to whatever has been
found beneficial by the experience of ages. In your deliberations
you will preserve that temper and moderation which the impor-
tance of their objects demands, and will, I have no doubt, pro-
duce ; and I am sure that you are unanimous in your desire to
direct all those deliberatiorA to the honour of my crown, the safety
of my dominions, and the prosperity of my people."


An address in the usual form, was moved by the Earl of Upper
Ossory, and seconded by Sir Francis Basset. Mr. William Pitt
animadverted with great triumph on the inconsistency of the mi.
nisterial side of the House, in voting an address of thanks to the
king, for having concluded definitive treaties of peace, the very
transcript of those preliminary articles•which they had before voted
to be inadequate and dishonourable. He likewise called loudly
on the minister to bring forward without delay some plan for se-
curing and improving the advantages that might be derived from
our possessions in the East ; a plan, not of temporary palliation,
of timorous expedients, but vigorous and effectual, suited to the
magnitude, the importance, and the alarming exigency of the
case.


Mr. Secretary Fox returned his warm thanks to the right
honourable gentleman, and said, that few things could give
him greater satisfaction than to find that both the speech and
address appeared unexceptionable to him, and that they were
to be honoured with his support. At the same time he could
not allow that there was any ground for the triumph of the


1783.] ADDRESS ON THE RING'S SPEECH.
187


honourable gentleman, when he exultingly observed that the
present address to which the Home were called upon to assent,
was substantially the same with that to which, in -February
last, they gave a negative: the right honourable member
wished to fasten on the present ministers the imputation of
inconsistency ; there was a circumstance that he had thought
proper not to mention, which would make the inconsistency
vanish. He (Mr. Fox) thought the preliminary articles such
as the then situation of the country did not warrant; and
yet he was ready to vote for this address; but why? because
the signing of the preliminary articles had pledged the faith
of the nation, and rendered the signing of the definitive
treaties a matter not so much of choice as of necessity ; and
therefore as it had become necessary to conclude them, it
was surely proper to thank his majesty for having put the
finishing hand to a treaty which he could not refUse to sign,
without a violation of public faith. During the last session
of parliament, he had declared his opinion pretty roundly
about the preliminaries of peace; he then pronounced them
to be less advantageous than, from the relative situation of
affairs, this country had a right to expect. He still was of
that opinion, and considered the preliminary articles, in every
point of view, as inadequate to our claims; and he begged
leave to call back to the memory of the House the situation
of our affairs at that time. In the East Indies, where our
affairs bad been said to be the most desperate, what had hap-
pened to make us rejoice that peace had been concluded ?
Had any Englishman looked to an engagement between the
British and French fleets, in that quarter of the world, with
any other apprehension, than that which every humane man
feels, who repines at the prospect of an event by which much
human blood must be shed, and uselessly too, after a peace
is concluded? 'When any man said that our fleets had de-
creased, and our finances had been disordered, and then
assigned these circumstances as reasons for concluding such
a peace as the last, it was incumbent on that man to prove,
that the decrease in the one, and disorder in the other, had
taken place simply, and without being accompanied, by
similar misfortunes in the fleets and finances of the enemy,
for if, when it is proved that we have suffered, it is also made
manifest, that the enemy has suffered in the same proportion,
then the relative misfortune on our side cannot be set up as
a good argument to justify the making of the late peace.


Our finances, it was true, were not in as good a state as
we could wish; but in order to shew that the state of our
finances pointed out the necessity of making peace to avoid a
national bankruptcy, it ought to be proved that the treasury




188 ADDRESS ON THE KING'S SPEECH.
[Nov.


of the enemy was in such a state as to set bankruptcy at
defiance: he believed that the honourable gentleman would
not think himself justified from any event that had happened
this summer (alluding to the failure of the Caisse d'Escomte
in Paris), to undertake to prove that the French treasury was
in any such condition. It was, therefore, fair to say, that
the preliminary articles did not answer the claims of the pub-
lic, nor satisfy their expectations; but the right honourable
gentleman's argument that these were in fact the same, and
that therefore the thanks in the present instance was an eu-
Fogium on the ministers who made the peace, was not well
founded: there was a little circumstance which made a ma-
terial difference in the comparison. The faith of the nation
was to be taken against the situation of the country. Know-
ing and feeling our pretentions to better terms; incapable of
accepting such as we had procured; the present ministers yet
ratified the treaties. They had no alternative; and therefore
it was not to be stated that the cases were parallel, or that
there was any comparison between the preliminary articles
and the definitive treaties.


" But," it was said, " the definitive treaties might have
been concluded sooner, especially as there was no difference."
Certainly, if there was no difference they might have been
procured sooner : but was there not great ancd essential dif-
ference? Were there not points obtained which more than
justified, and which more than compensated for the delay of
a few weeks, or even of a few months ? They might have been
concluded sooner perhaps; it was his opinion they might;
but in this their conduct was to be judged of fairly; it must
be enquired what they had gained by the delay, and what
they had suffered. If they had procured certain points which
were before doubtful or obscure, and that without incurring
expence, certainly the delay would be approved of; and on
this ground he wished the matter to be tried. If the right
honourable gentleman would give himself the trouble to read
and compare the preliminary and definitive treaties, he would
find, that the latter were not exact transcripts of the former.
There were some few variations, to some of which the noble
lord who moved the address had alluded; either of which,
in his humble opinion, was well worth the delay of a few
weeks, or even of a few months. If the right hononrable
gentleman would take the trouble to look to the 7th article
in each, he would find, that by the preliminary treaty, the
island of Tobago was to be ceded to France, but that no
regard whatever had been paid to the protection of the Pro,-
testant and British inhabitants. Whereas, by the definitive
treaty, it was evident, that care had been taken to stipulate


ADDRESS ON THE KING'S SPEECH. 1891783.]
every condition that could be asked for the protection of
those, who had no longer the happiness to be the subjects of
his majesty; they were now as effectually secured as when
they were so. This alone he conceived to be a matter of
some moment, and worth the delay complained of. Again,
if the honourable gentleman would proceed a little farther
in comparing the two treaties, he will find, that by the pre-
liminary treaty, no boundaries were ascertained for our car-
rying on the gum trade; whereas, by the I I111 article of the
definitive treaty, the boundaries were expressly laid down
and described ; that ambiguity and want of precision which
would have been the productive source of quarrels, was re-
moved; and it would not be easy to dispute on the mean-
ing of the spirit of the article as now worded. According
to the preliminary articles, the gum trade was to be carried
on in the same manner in which it used to be carried on
before the year 1755; that is to say, when it was carried on
by violence, and constantly attended by acts of hostility, which
daily afforded grounds of quarrel, that might possibly in the
end bring on a war, that would defeat the right honourable
member's laudable wishes for the establishment of a real
sinking fund, for paying off some part of the national debt: —
by the care taken during the late negotiation, the coast on
which the gum trade might be carried on was ascertained,
he hoped to the satisfaction of all the persons concerned in
it; at least it was an advantage to have it ascertained. A
third variation, if he carried his comparison a little farther,
lie would find in the 13th article, about the meaning con-
cerning which so many doubts had been expressed in the
House last session. The words, " ancient possessions," stood
in the preliminary treaties as the only description of the pos-
sessions of our allies in India, without any definition as to
what time the word ancient referred. In the article in the
definitive treaty it would be found, that the period was fixed
and ascertained by the insertion of the year 1776. These
three differences, therefore, were to be urged in defence of the
delay in question. But there still remained a fourth, which
occasioned more trouble than all the rest, and that, though
the House in general might not immediately comprehend it,
the right honourable gentleman would fully understand, and.
that was, the settling the period for the negotiation of a treaty
of commerce, which is now filled up in the definitive treaty
with the words, " within the space of two years, to be com-
puted from the 1st of January 178 4," which fixes the period
for the negotiation to two years. Pending the negotiation, it
was reasonable to suppose the three nations would in com-
mercial matters be bound by the treaty of Utrecht: and this





799 ADDRESS ON THE KING'S SPEECH. [Nov.
he imagined was the sense of the British ministers. But sup-
posing the two years should expire before the new commer-
cial arrangements should take place, a question would natu-
rally arise, What would, in this case, become of the treaty of
Utrecht? For his part, he was of opinion, that the treaty
of Utrecht would, in such a case, still remain in full force ;
but he knew, on the other hand, that this had not been the
opinion of the courts of Madrid and Versailles, the ministers
of which contended, that if the negotiations should end with-
out producing any new commercial arrangements, the treaty
of Utrecht would, in that case, be completely annulled : the
consequence, therefore, would be this, that Great Britain.




• I


would be obliged to comply with all the requisitions of these
two courts, or else adopt one side of this disagreeable alter-
native — either to live without any commercial intercourse
between France and Spain, or to go to war with them, in
order to procure advantageous terms of commerce. In either
case this country must suffer: she must either consent to
forego the benefits arising from the treaty of Utrecht, which
had always been deemed highly beneficial ; or else run the
risk of losing all those blessings by a new war, which we might
expect to derive from the peace. By the delay , that had in-
tervened, all these difficulties had been removed ; the treaty
of Utrecht, and all others between France, Spain, and this
country, had been unconditionally revived and renewed ; so
that let the negotiations for new commercial arrangements
terminate as they may, England cannot be worse than she is:
if the negotiation should succeed, so much the better; if it
should not, then she will find herself just where she is, in the
full enjoyment of the benefits of the .treaty of Utrecht, and
this would be filially settled in two years from the 1st of
January 1784. If no other advantage had been derived
from the delay, he thought it was well compensated ; and
now that the business was concluded, he would not hesitate
to say, that, bound as he knew the public faith to have been
by the preliminary articles, he would have concluded the de,
fiuitive treaties on the basis of them, if the ministers of the
other belligerent powers had not thought proper to recede
from the letter of them. in these several instances.


He hoped that from all he had said, the House would not
think the delay had been useless ; and that they would acquit
him of inconsistency in condemning the preliminary articles
in the last session, and yet calling upon gentlemen to vote for
an address that approved of definitive treaties that were found-
ed upon them : it was proper now to carry into effect, what it
might have been better for the nation had never been pro-
posed; but having once been done, there was a necessity to


1 `)3 3 •]


ADDRESS ON' THE KING'S SPEECH. 19!


ratify it ; and whatever the ministers who advised the signing
of the preliminary articles might think to the contrary, he was
bold to say, that from a comparison of the losses and advan-
tages on both sides between France and England, he was
convinced that the ministers of the former power had, by ma-
king the peace when they did, rendered their country as
great a service as had ever been rendered by any statesman,
to any country, at the end of any war.


The right honourable member .was surprised that no com-
mercial treaty with America had been signed : but, in fret,
there was no ground for surprise; the late administration had
not been blamed, as the right honourable member imagined,
for not having produced a commercial system to parliament;
but for having, in the first instance, signed the provisional
treaty, without having made any stipulations in favour. of
British commerce ; and in the next, for not having brought
forward some regulations adapted to the situation of the mo-
ment, which should hold, till a general system could be form-
ed and adopted. For his part, he was free to own, that he
might have signed the definitive treaty with America sooner
if he had thought it necessary; but having all along looked
upon the provisional treaty as definitive and absolute, when a
particular event should happen, which had since taken place,
namely, the peace with France, he did not think any ratifica-
tion necessary. This was the language he had held in his dis-
patches to our negotiators: but as the other powers were of
opinion, that they ought not to sign the definitive treaties, un-
til the provisional articles should have been previously ratified,
he gave way, because he did not think proper to defer the
signature of the definitive treaties with the other powers, until
America and England could have settled the terms of a com-
mercial treaty; and also because he was of opinion, that the
negotiation might be better carried on in London or Phila-
delphia than in Paris. In the steps which they had taken,
the utmost care and attention had been used to bring back to
this country the minds, the affections, the commerce of America.
The gentleman who was sent to Paris to negociate this treaty,
was qualified for the task, as much from his extensive know-
ledge of the interests of the two countries, as from his
character for integrity, and the love of freedom: his abili-
ties in this negotiation had been apparent, and he deserved


'well of his country. He adverted to the measure of giving his
majesty in council discretional powers for a limited time, in
regard to the management of the commerce of the two coun-
tries. The right honourable gentleman's observations on that
act certainly were not excited by any evil which had been ex-


1




192 ADDItESS ON 'mit RING'S SPEtC11. [Nov. 1 s,
perienced. No danger nor injury had as yet arisen from these
discretional powers : but had they not been extended in dura-
tion, he must before now have come to parliament for fresh
powers, as the system of commerce had not been settled.


The right honourable member wondered that the India bu-
-siness had been'&) long postponed. On this point he was rea-
dy to take shame to himself; for the state of our affairs in the
East had for sonic time been such, that they could ill brook
any delay. The right honourable gentleman had declared,
that there were in the present ministry some, who had long ago
been extremely clamorous for the adjustment of a system of
government, applicable to the situation of our affairs in that
quarter of the globe. In that some Mr. Fox acknowledged
himself to be included : but important and pressing as the
business of India undoubtedly was, he could very easily ac-
count for nothing systematic having yet been proposed to par-
liament respecting it : the rapid change ofministers for these
last two years, was the reason why nothing had hitherto been
done. Various committees, he observed, had been from time
to time appointed by that House, and such infinite pains had
been taken to investigate and enquire into the real state of our
Indian territories ; and such able and accurate reports had
been made upon the subject, that no popular assembly could
possibly be better informed, than that House was, relative to 40
Eastern events, and the situation of our affairs there; but from
the mere accident of the rapidly-succeeding changes of minis-
try, it had been impossible to do any thing essential in the bu-
siness. The secret and select committees, who had so remark-
ably distinguished themselves by their assiduity and ability,
had both originated in the administration of the noble lord in*
the blue ribbon : and as a learned gentleman had been appoint-
ed chairman of the secret committee, who lived at the time in
great friendship and confidence with the minister, it was not
to be doubted but that the learned gentleman would have pro-
posed something material upon the subject, if his achninistra-
tion had not been suddenly dissolved. The short administra-
tion of the noble marquis, whose name could not be mention!,.*
ed without exciting the most lively regret in the breast of every
well-wisher to his country, left no time for entering upon
that business ; and even the noble earl, who had been at the
head of the last administration, had not time to take any ef,
fectual measures to heal the wounds which former governors
had given to India. The learned gentleman to whom he al-
luded (Mr. Dundas) lived in as much confidence with the no--


4 ble earl, as he had before done with the noble lord, and cer-.
tainly, if the time had not been too short, he would have


r


brought forward resolutions on the evidence which came be-;


1783j ADDRESS ON THE KING'S SPEECH. 1.93
fore him. During their continuance in office, however, it -was,.
well known that certain resolutions, touching the recall of a
governor, grounded on one of the reports of the select com-
mittee, were proposed, and agreed to by the House; that the
directors of the East India company ordered the recall of the
governor in question; that the general court of proprietors
over-ruled the resolution of the court of directors; and that
dispatches were made ready upon the business at the India
house, and upon being sent to the secretary of state for the
home department for his inspection and concurrence, agree-
ably to an act of parliament, Mr. Townshend stopped them,
and in his place stated to the House what he had done, and
his reasons for ,


so doing. In this, Mr. Townshend, in his
opinion, had acted with great propriety ; but all was anarchy
and confusion, both in the East and in the direction at home.
What was done by the one, was undone by the other. There
was no efficacy in the system of the government, and it was
indispensably necessary that something should be immediately
done : but as it then lay with the House to come to some re-
solution upon the business, the fault, certainly, was not impu-
table to any one of the administrations he had mentioned.
With regard to that, in which he had then the honour to bear
a part, they came not into office till April; May was the earliest
month that lie could have brought in any bill ; and when it was
considered, that although that House was well instructed in
the concerns of India, the other had not had the. same oppor-
tunities for information, lie thought it more advisable to de-
lay the matter during a. short recess, and to bring it on early
in this session, than to precipitate a business so extremely Me-
portant at the tail of the last, to put an end to which so gene-
ral an impatience was expressed. To convince gentlemen,
however, that it was his design to bring it forward immediately,
he would take advantage of the full House that he then saw,
and give notice, that on Tuesday he should make a motion
relative to India.


The right honourable member had said, that with respect to
the state of the nation, nothing ought to be kept back, but, all
ought to be submitted to the public eve; and that such burdens
ought to be cheerfully submitted to, as should be found ne-
cessary to restore public credit, and raise such a revenue as
would help to extinguish some part of the national debt. He
rejoiced to hear this language from the right honourable mem-
ber, because he hoped, that when the state of the nation should
he laid before parliament faithfully and fully, the right honour-
able member would support government in laying on the bur-
dens that should be found indispensably necessary. The pub-
l ic faith must be preserved inviolate; and as to all the nonsense


VOL. II.
0




194 ADDRESS ON THE KING'S SPEECH. [Nov. I.I.


of taxing the funds, and such doctrines as had been broached
by writers, not anonymous writers indeed, but whose names
lent no credit to their works, they had his execration. It was a
measure which no honest minister would take, and which, if any
dishonest man presumed to take, no parliament would justify or
bear. Such a measure could never be adopted in such a govern-
ment as ours, where public faith and public credit were the same
thing. From the general terms in which the right honour-
able gentleman had begun to mention the national faith and
the finances of the country, he said, he had been led to ima-
gine, that he meant to propose some enquiry that would keep •
the subject at a distance; but the right honourable gentleman
had afterwards, in a manly and open way, declared the pro-
per remedy to be applied. It was to look the situation of the
country in the face, to determine to meet the difficulty, great
as it professedly was to provide for it, be the burden ever so
grievous; and to take care that the debt, funded and un-
funded, be ascertained; and neither to conceal the true state
of it from the people at large, nor, what was still more un-,
wise, to conceal it from themselves. There was a maxim laid
down, in an excellent book upon the Wealth of Nations,
Mr. Fox said, which had been ridiculed for its simplicity,
but which was indisputable as to its truth. In that book it
was stated, that the only way to become rich, was to manage
matters so, as to make one's income exceed one's expences.
This maxim applied equally to an individual and to a nation:
The proper line of conduct, therefore, was by a well-directed
economy to retrench every current expence, and to make as
large a saving, during the peace, as possible. Nor was this
all: he would freely own that his wishes went much farther.
He should not think a prospect of recovery was opened, and
the country likely to be restored to its former greatness, un-
less ministers contrived some means or other to pay off a part
at least of the national debt, and did something towards
establishing an actual sinking fund, capable of being applied
to a constant and sensible diminution of the public burdens.
To such a purpose he should most studiously direct his atten-
tion; and he trusted, whatever might be the right honourable.
gentleman's private opinion upon politics, the right honour-
able gentleman would lend his support to make a strong go'
verni»ent, by which he meant not a strong administration,
for the thing was the same, let who would be ministers. In
order to effect, however, this great, this desirable end, the
dread of unpopularity must be surmounted, and the minis-
try who flinched from the business upon so narrow-minded
a principle, would not deserve support. The great difficulty
lay in drawing the line, and distinguishing how 'far the Fib'


17831
ADDRESS ON THE KING'S SPEECH.


195


lie, in time of peace, could bear to be additionally burdened,
or how far it was prudent for ministers to go. It might be
contended, that the people ought not to be so far pressed, as
to deprive them of all elasticity and vigour in case of the
chance of another war. This argument had its weight to a
certain degree; but he should think it better policy to make
them temporary than lingering sufferers. If that House
would but have the fortitude to lay aside local prejudices, and
the fear of a momentary unpopularity, and would look only
to the general welfare, the path to prosperity would be con-
siderably smoothed, and the national prospect would brighten
apace. Whenever the present ministry were found to shrink
from their duty in this respect, he desired the House to with-
draw their support; but it depended upon parliament to give
execution and effect to the plans that ministers should pro-
pose. He wished, however, most earnestly to impress this
idea upon the minds of the House, that strengthening the
hands of government, was not strengthening the present ad-
ministration. It was not a matter of party, or of one side
of the House against another. It was essential to the deli-
verance of the empire; and he was ready to declare his opi-
nion, that though our affairs were deranged and bad, they
were not desperate. He did not view them with the melan-,
choly eye that some men were fond of considering them with,
nor would he venture to propose the remedies which were
suggested. The funds, he said, were unexpectedly and un-
reasonably low; they ought not to be as they were: but at
the same time he did not indulge the illusive hope, that they
would suddenly rise, and stand at a much higher price.
This, however, he was convinced might be done; our ex-
pellees might be brought considerably within our revenue:
and this was the project; the easy, simple, practicable pro-
ject upon which he would rely, in preference to all the san-
guine schemes, and to all the desperate remedies, which
weak men in their ignorance might suggest. It was that
which would give permanency and actual use to the sinking
fund, which would leave it annually- at the disposal of par-
liament, to be appropriated as the necessities might-require.
To attain this durable situation, great .


reforms must yet be
made, and much must depend on the virtue, constancy, and
ability of government. If he could indulge himself with the
idea, that the unanimity of this clay, an unanimity which
gave him the most sensible delight, was the earnest of future
temper, moderation, and union—if he could see the pros-
pect, that the spirit of dissention was at length to give way
to the necessities of the country, and that at least they were
to suspend their personal animosities till the deliverance of


02




1 96 MR. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS. [Nov. 18.
the country was accomplished, he should, indeed, be warm
in his expectations, and believe that a very few years would
behold us in renovated strength and splendour. He thanked
the right honourable gentleman for his conduct on that day;
and professed his happiness, that the speech from the throne,
and the address in return to it, met so cordially with the ap-
probation of gentlemen from all sides, and that the address
would be carried to the throne with unanimity.


The address was agreed to without any amendment or division.


MR. Fox's EAST INDIA BILLS.


November 18.


NiT R . Secretary Fox moved, that an act, made in the i3th yearof the reign of his present majesty, entitled, " An act for
establishing certain regulations for the better management of the
affairs of the East India company, as well in India as in Europe :"—
an act, made in the loth year of the reign of his present majesty,
entitled, " An act for continuing in the possession of the united
company of merchants of England trading to the East Indies, for
a farther time, and under certain conditions, the territorial ac-
quisitions and revenues lately obtained in the East Indies; and
for reviving and continuing, for a farther time, so much of an
act, made in the I3th year of the reign of his present majesty,
entitled, an act for establishing certain regulations for the better
management of the affairs of the East India company, as well in
India as in Europe, as hath expired in the course of the present
year ; and for indemnifying the said company for any money they
have paid, or may pay, in or about the building of three ships of
the line for the service of the public :"—the resolutions whioli,
upon the 29th day of April, 1782, were reported from the com-
mittee of the whole house, to whom it was referred to consider
farther of the several reports which had been made from the com-
mittees of secrecy, relating to the affairs of the East India coin-
pany, and which were then agreed to by the House, together
with the proceedings of the House thereupon :—and the resolu•
tions which, upon the 16th day of May, 1782, were reported from
the said committee of the whole House, and which, upon the 28th
day of the same month, were agreed to by the House, together
with the proceedings of the House thereupon, might be read; and
the same being read accordingly,


Mr. Secretary Fox rose again. He said, that in the state
of responsibility in which he was going to put himself by


1783.]


MR. Fox's EAST INDIA BILLS. 197
the proposition he should have the honour to move, he felt
much comfort and consolation in this circumstance, that the
measure to which he should call the attention of the _douse
was one not of choice, but of necessity: it was no idle specula-
tion on Ins part; the business forced itself upon him, and upon
the nation ; and if he even would, lie could not avoid or
defer the discussion of it. The deplorable situation of the
East India company was well known, and universally ad-
mitted; their extreme distress, and the embarrassed state
of their affairs, not only called for the aid of government,
bat required its immediate assistance, as the only possible
means of averting and preventing the final and complete de-
struction of the company's interests, and with them, of ma-
terially injuring, if not entirely ruining, the interests of the
nation, as far as they were connected with our territorial
acquisitions in India. These circumstances being unde-
niable, arduous and difficult in the extreme as the task he
had set himself to perform that day undoubtedly was, it was
some consolation and some satisfaction to him to know,
that he was merely discharging an act of indispensable_ duty
as a minister, that there was no choice or option before him,
that he was not about to obtrude any idle, visionary, or
speculative projects of his own upon their notice, but
was in the act of offering to the consideration of parlia-
ment the best propositions for the preservation of the India
company, and the restoration of the welfare of their con-
cerns, that his most deliberate attention could suggest; and
that he did it, for no other reason upon earth, than be-
cause4le necessity that called for it was so urgent, that it
pressed itself forwards, irresistibly, and as a matter that would'
not admit of farther delay. Did any man doubt the truth
of this assertion, he had only to take a retrospective view of
the proceedings of that House during.


the last two years:
the many abuses in the government of the territories under
the management of the East India Company had been so
severely felt, that parliament had found it necessary to in-
stitute enquiries, by which die source of the abuses complained
of might be found out, and proper remedies devised, and ap-
plied to them : committees had been appointed ; their re-
searches had been pursued with uncommon industry, and
their reports contained a body of information so complete,
that, perhaps, the like had never been laid before parliament.
He observed, that the two committees had been of different
constitutions and complexions; that men perfectly indifferent
to each other, and unconnected by any tie of politics or party,
had set upon each; that the labours of the two committees
had consequently been conducted with impartiality, and that


0 3




1 9 8 MR. Fox's EAST INDIA BILLS. [Nov. 18.
their prudence was perfectly astonishing, the magnitude of
the information they had laid before the House, as well as
the very great ability and precision with which it was stated,
infinitely exceeding any expectations, however sanguine, that
could possibly have been entertained respecting them by any
description of persons either within doors or without. He
pointed out the different mode of proceeding adopted by each
committee, stating, that one of them (the secret committee)
had not only made ample reports of the result of their en-
quiries, but come to certain resolutions as the necessary de-
ductions from their reports, to which that House had agreed,
and which it had in clue form ratified and authorised. The
other committee (the select) had pursued a different method,
and perhaps not a less useful one. They had contented them-
selves with furnishing copious reports from time to time, full
of information, and had left it to the House to draw their own
inference from the premises laid down in those reports, and
to act upon them as to their wisdom should seem meet. Both
these committees had agreed, however, in one essential par-
ticular; each of them declaring, that the farther they pro-
ceeded in their enquiries, the more it became evident that all
the distress and difficult y of the company were ascribable
to the disobedience of the orders of the court of directors,
and the rapacity of the company's servants in India. The
resolutions come to by the first committee, (the secret one,
which he had no other reason for calling the first committee,
than that it was now at an end,) carried in them principles to
which he gave his most perfect acquiescence, because they
appeared to him to be principles of justice, of humanity, and
of sound policy ; but they necessarily implied this corollary —
as they in all probability ascribed the disorder in the com-
pany's affairs to the true causes, certain specified facts stated
in the resolutions, so it appeared to be incumbent upon that
House to inflict punishment upon the authors of the mischief
incurred by those facts. This unfortunately threw additional
embarrassment upon the task, the arduous task, of a reform
of the system of governing our territories in India, by in-
volving personal considerations in one of the most important
questions that could engage the attention of parliament.


A learned gentleman, who had been chairman of one of
those committees, (Mr. Dundas,) bad moved, that it was the
duty of the directors of the East India company to recall
Mr. Hastings from the government of Bengal. The House
very readily and very properly passed the motion ; judging,
no doubt, that it would not be expedient to condemn the
system lately pursued in India, without fixing some mark of
disapprobation on the person who had been the 'soul of the


1 7 8 3 .] MR. rox's EAST INDIA BILLS. 199
system; the directors, in obedience to the sense of the House,
expressed in this motion, resolved that Mr. Hastings should
be recalled ; but not thinking they had a , power to decide
finally on this subject, they laid their own proceedings before
the court of proprietors. For his part, lie was of opinion
that the directors might, without any violation of law, have
issued their orders for a recall of Mr. Hastings, without con-
sulting the court of proprietors; he nevertheless was aware,
that a contrary opinion was entertained by many; the event,
however, proved, that it was necessary the constitution of
the society should be. amended, that inconveniencies similar
to those which had happened .should not occur again. The
court of proprietors resolved, that the order made by the
court of directors for the recall of the governor-general should
be rescinded; the directors obeyed the sense of their consti-
tuents, and having made up their dispatches accordingly,
carried them to the secretary of state, (Mr. Townshend,) to
be reviewed by him ; that gentleman, finding them so oppo-
site to the sense of the House of Commons, would not suffer
them to be sent out to India: and the House having met a
few . days after, he stated to them the transaction. In the
whole of this proceeding, Mr. Townshend acted with the
strictest propriety; an act of parliament authorised him to
examine the dispatches of the court of directors, and to sup-
press the whole, or such parts as he should conceive to be
likely to produce pernicious consequences to the public, and
availing. himself of the power with which the law bad vested
him, he stopped the dispatches, which contained an account
of the proceedings of the court of proprietors, because he
found them so completely contradictory to the sense of the
House of Commons, expressed in their vote.


But what was in the mean time the situation of the com-
pany's government in India? It was critical beyond descrip-
tion ; nay, it was a government of anarchy and confusion.
The governor-general himself, who was the principal subject
of the dispatches, was left in a situation in which even his
enemies must pity him: the whole continent of India had
been made acquainted with the resolution of that House for
recalling him; and the resolution of the court of proprietors,
by which he was to be secured in his government, was not
transmitted to him, but was kept back : so that in fact he
was in a place of eminence without authority; and of power
without energy. -Would any man of sense wish that a go-
vernor-general of Bengal should remain in such a situation ?
Could the affairs of the company prosper in such a state?
They certainly could not; and therefore it would be the duty
of parliament to prevent the possibility of such another occur-


0 4




200 MR. Fox's EAST INDIA BILLS. [Nov. 18.,
rence, as had reduced them to that state. But this could
not be prevented, while the act for regulating the govern-
ment of India should remain in its present condition. By
this act, it was in the power of the court of proprietors to
defeat the very best measures that the directors, in conjunction
with the servants of the crown, should take. If the directors
wished to punish disobedience in one of the company's ser-
vants, and therefore to recall him, they were obliged first to
apply to his majesty's ministers; but their consent was not,
according to the opinion of the day, sufficient; so that after
it should have been obtained, it was still necessary to submit
the whole to the court of proprietors, who might, if they
pleased, undo all that had been done by the ministers and the
directors; nay, defeat the purposes of the united wisdom of
the nation and parliament, expressed in their votes.


Besides these contradictions, another had lately occurred :
the court of proprietors had voted their thanks to Mr. Has-
tings; those thanks must be communicated to government,
who, acting under the spirit of the resolutions of the House
of Commons, could not perhaps suffer them to be conveyed 4
to India. This naturally led him to consider the character
of the men who generally were in the direction, and held East
India stock, with the nature of the connection between a go-
vernor-general and his principals. In the direction there
were generally two description of men; those who, being real
proprietors, endeavoured, by promoting the trade of the com-
pany, and increasing its revenues, to make the most of their
stock : the others were persons who had become proprietors,
not for commercial, but for political purposes: how, by what
means, and for what end, such persons purchased stock, he
thought it unnecessary to state to the House. Those who
looked to political connections, could not gratify their wishes
more than by supporting a governor-general, in whose hands
was lodged so great an opportunity of obliging his friends.
Those whose sole object was to make the most of their money,
were generally inclined to support that governor, through
whose means the directors were enabled to make large divi-
dends; the circumstance of large dividends might at first
view appear to make greatly in favour of a governor; but
on .a serious investigation, it might he found to be highly
criminal in him ; for seeing that, after having robbed the
people committed to his care, and peculated for his own pri-
vate advantage, there was no other way to prevent his prin-
cipals from calling him to account, but bv raising their divi-
dends; for this purpose, the poor unhappy natives must
undergo a second fleecing for the benefit of the proprietors:
so that they were to be robbed first, to enrich their governor,


1783.] MR. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS. 201


and afterwards they were to be plundered, to furnish means
to prevent a discovery of his peculations. He was not sur-
prised that even the most honest directors should not venture
to put an end to such infamous practices, by which a disgrace
had been brought upon the British name in India : while
man was man, he would be subject to the infirmities of his
nature. The directors wished not to offend the court of
proprietors, to whom they owed their situations; and the
proprietors would never be easily persuaded to sacrifice ser-
vants by whom they were enriched : thus, however, the dearest
interests of the country were sacrificed, and its honour tar-
nished, while no power in law existed at present by which
the former might be preserved, and the latter retrieved. From
these considerations alone, the House must agree with him
upon the necessity of the interference of the legislature, if
there was a wish that our possessions in India should be
secured to us. But if parliament was desirous to avoid all
interference, they would find it at present impossible: the
business pressed itself upon them; and not only they must
interfere, but they must do it without delay.


The state of the finances of the East India company was
as deplorable as that of the internal government of their
territorial acquisitions. Gentlemen would remember that the
company had applied last year to parliament for pecuniary
assistance: they called for leave to borrow soo,000t. on bonds;
they had petitioned for 300,0001. in exchequer bills; and for
the remission or suspension of a demand upon them on the
part of government for 700,0001. due for customs. It might
be remembered also, that according to an act of parliament
now in being, the directors cannot accept bills drawn in In-
dia to the amount of more than 300,0001. unless they shall
have first obtained the consent of the lords commissioners
of his majesty's treasury ; the reason of this power being
lodged in the commissioners was, that possibly by some un-
unavoidable circumstance it might happen that the drafts on
the company might some time exceed in a small degree the
above sum, and therefore they were vested with a discretion-
ary power to grant their consent to the acceptance of the di-
rectors, for a larger sum than 300,0001. when it should appear
to them advisable so to do. The House would probably be
astonished when they should hear, that notwithstanding the
legal restriction to accept bills for no more than 300,0001.
without the consent of the lords of the treasury, there were
bills actually coming over for acceptance to the amount of two
million sterling. The lords of the treasury having been ap-
prized of this singular circumstance, had very prudently re-
fused to. give their consent that the directors should accept bills




202 MR. r EAST' INDIA BILLS. [Nov. 18.
for so enormous a sum, and very properly referred them to
parliament.


Here was another circumstance that proved, as clear as
day, that government was not impertinently, rashly, or un-
necessarily intruding into the management of the company's
affairs : if government was now stepping forward, it was
for no other purpose but that of saving the company from
bankruptcy : for if they went on in this course they must
sink ; and nothing but that interference could preserve its ex,.
istence. This was not a rash assertion, the state of the com-
pany's finances would bear woeful testimony to the truth of
it : the company owed 11,200,0001., and they had stock in
hand to the amount of about 3,200,00o1. towards paying this
immense sum; and when deducted from it, there would still
remain a debt of 8,000,000l., a sum to the highest degree
alarming, when compared with the capital of the proprietors,
Mr. Fox said farther, that when the- lords of the treasurys'''
consented to exercise the discretion vested in them by the
act he had alluded to, let the degree in which it was exercised
be what' it might, he considered them as pledging the public
litith for the payment of the bills, the acceptance of which
they permitted; and therefore it behoved them to act with in-
finite circumspection and prudence. In the present case, the
sum was extremely large ; it was nevertheless obvious, that the
credit of the company was a matter of a very delicate nature;
if' they were not assisted, they must unavoidably be ruined,
and the ruin of a body of merchants, so extensive in their
concerns, and so important in the eyes of all Europe as . the
English East India company, must necessarily give the na-
tional credit a very great shock indeed. On the other hand,
to give them the requisite assistance, without first examining
their affairs, and setting them to rights, and without forming
and enforcing a new system of management for the future,
better calculated to promote their prosperity,and relieve them
from the bankrupt condition in which they at present unques-
tionably stood, would be only to throw away the public mo-
ney, and for that House to proceed to take the last shilling
out of the pockets of their constituents, to lend it to those
whose notorious want of ability to manage their affairs had
already. brought them to the brink of destruction, and afforded
but little ground for expectation of better care for the time to
come.


It might naturally be supposed, therefore, that he did not
think for a moment of adopting the easy alternative of lending
them the money they wanted, and thus getting rid of the diffi-
culty for the present. The nature of the case required a very
different ,mode of proceeding. He would nothave gentlemen


I783,] MR. FOX'S' EAST INDIA BILLS. 203


to be led astray with the idea, that the public had no right
to take upon themselves to check or controul the government
of the company's settlements : for his part, lie knew too well
the great interest the public bad in the welfare of the Com-
pany, ever to subscribe to any such doctrine. What was
the whole amount of the dividend to the proprietors ? About
256,000/. And what sum did the nation derive from the cus-
toms paid by the company? Above 1,300,0001. The people
of England therefore had a much greater stake in the business
than the proprietors of the company. If the bills for two
million, which were shortly expected, should return pro-
tested, what would all Europe, Asia, and the world say, -but
that the people of England were bankrupts, or they would
not have suffered the bankruptcy of a company, which paid
them 1, 3 00,0001. a year? The conclusion would be natural;
and therefore the credit of the nation was deeply interested in
the support of that of the Company. It was his intention,
then, in the bill or bills that he should have the honour to
move for leave to bring in, to authorise the lords of the
treasury to consent that the directors shall accept the bills for
2,000,0001. that were on their way to England: the public
on this occasion must give effectual support to the company ;
and therefore he would have it understood that the nation by
these means would become a collateral security, and be liable


3to pay the whole, if the company should not be able to take
up or pay all debts. Thus he hoped to save the sinking
credit of the company for the present; but it would not be
sufficient to do this, without taking such steps as should guard
it in future against the same causes, that had reduced it nearly
to a state of bankruptcy.


If he were totally unacquainted with the transactions in
India, which had brought on the company's calamities, he
was of opinion that lie could argue, d priori, that they would
happen ; because, from the constitution of the company,
nothing else could happen. But with the mass of evidence
that the secret committee had laid on the table, it. would be
madness to persevere in a system of government that had
been attended with such fatal consequences. It had been
truly remarked by a learned gentleman last year, (Mr. Dun-
das,) that if a man wished to read the finest system of ethics,
Policy, and humanity, he would find it in the letters of the
court of directors to the company's servants abroad ; but if
the reverse of all this should be looked for, it might be found
in the manner in which the orders of the directors were ob-
served in India; for there, inhumanity, false policy, pecula-
tion, and brutality were to be discovered in almost every step;




204 MR. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS. [YON'. Is.:


orders were given on one side; they were disobeyed on the
other; and the whole was crowned with impunity.


When the House thought proper to condemn the system
pursued in India, it was a necessary corollary that some mark
of disapprobation should be expressed relative to men as well
as measures; it was not however his intention to enter into
a detail of charges against any man ; accusation was by no
means his object ; but it was not possible to illustrate his ob-
servations without occasionally mentioning names. With
respect to disobedience of orders, there were two very sin-
gular instances, which he could not pees over unnoticed.
The supreme council of Bengal had, by a vote on which the
governor-general had been left in a minority, resolved to send
two gentlemen, Mr. Fowke and Mr. Bristow, to reside, the
one at the court of the rajah of Oude, the other at that of
the rajah of Benares. The governor general, however, re-
fused to send these two gentlemen to the places to which they
had been destined; the directors transmitted to him the most
positive orders to send them. Mr. Hastings thought proper
to disobey them ; and went so far as to say, that he could
not en:ploy them in negotiations, because he had no confi-
dence in them. Mr. Scott, agent in England for Mr. Hast-
ings, said, on his examination before the committee of that
House, that to force these two gentlemen on Mr. Hastings,
was much the same as if opposition in parliament should
force a minister of the crown to send abroad an ambassador,
in whom he could not repose confidence : so that, according
to this doctrine, the court of directors, who were in fact Mr.
Hastings' masters, were to be considered in the light of an
opposition, and resisted accordingly. What, he said, must
be the state of that government, when the servants were bold
enough to consider the power by which they were invested
with authority, as an opposition inimical to them ? But the
subsequent conduct of Mr. Hastings towards one of those
gentlemen, in whom he could place no confidence, was cu-
rious indeed ; for he was pleased to give a contract to Mr.
Fowke for furnishing oats, with a commission of 15 per cent.
which he observed in one of his letters was a great sum, and
might operate as a temptation on him to protract the nego-
tiation of peace ; but, added he, " the entire confidence I have
in the integrity and honour of Mr. Fowke, are a full and per,
fect security on that head."


To evince the difficulty of recalling their servants, he stated,
that in 1 77 6 it was the resolution of the company to recall
-Mr. Hastings; but his agent standing up, and in his name
announcing his resignation, it was accepted as a milder mode


I]83.] XX. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS. 205
of dismission or recall. It afterwards happened that Mr.
Hastings disavowed the assertion of his agent, and thus two
or three years elapsed, and the recall was never effected. As
e proof of the disobedience of the company's servants with re-
spect to the orders of the court of directors, Mr. Fox men-
tioned various cases that were well known.


The affair of the rajah, prince, or zemindar of Benares af-
forded an instance of breach of public faith, which would for
ever be a blot upon the character of the British nation. The
territories of this prince had been declared to be vested in him,
on condition of paying to the vizier a certain fixed and stipu-
lated tribute. The vizier thought proper afterwards to enter
into an agreement with the company's servants, by virtue of
which the vassalage of the rajah of Benares was ceded to the
company; so that he thereby became tributary to it, but pre-
cisely on the same terms that he held his territories of the
vizier; the tribute, and the conditions on which it was to be
paid, were precisely the same; so that the company stood on
no better grounds than the vizier, and the rajah did not stand
on worse. Mr. Hastings, on that occcasion, wrote to the
English resident at Benares, and authorised him to assure the
rajah that no farther tribute should be exacted, nor should it
on any future change of government be enlarged. The gov-
ernor-general's letter on this occasion was a perfect model of
elegance; it breathed humanity, justice,, and honour in every
line; but, alas ! the humanity, justice and honour of Mr.
Hastings towards Cheyt Sing, the name of this unfortunate
prince, were to be found only in his letter; his conduct dis-
claimed them : the tribute was regularly paid; and yet, con-
trary to the very tenour of his letter, Mr. Hastings called upon.
Cheyt Sing during the war for five lacks of rupees : they were
paid; a second requisition for a similar sum was made, and
complied with; as was also a third : the governor-general made
a fourth demand of five lacks; but the prince was not able this
time to comply with it : and the governor hearing that the
money could not be procured by fair means, went in person
into the territories of Benares, seized them for the company's
use; and the unfortunate prince, Cheyt Sing, driven from hie
dominions, was at this moment a wanderer and a vagabond
in the world. This unfortunate rajah referred to the governor-
general's letter, to spew that the demands that had been made
upon him were contrary to the assurance contained in that
letter; but Mr. Hastings, disclaiming his letter, referred to the
instrument, by which he promised to pay the tribute: in that
there was no mention of an assurance that the tribute should
never be higher ; to this it was replied, that a clause had been
at first inserted in the instrument to annul all former agree-




206 MR. rOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS. [Nov. 18.
ments, and consequently the original agreement by which the
rajah of Benares bound himself to pay tribute to the vizier,
and which agreement had been made over to the company;
to this clause the rajah objected ; and it was struck out; conse-
quently he had a right to conclude, that the original treaty
with the vizier, by which the quantum of the tribute was as-
certained, and which he assigned over to the company, re-
mained still in fill! force ; and he was the more founded in this
opinion, as the governor-general's letter was as explicit on this
subject as Cheyt Sing could have wished ; but Mr. Hastings,
still sheltering himself behind the letter of the instrument,
said, with Shylock, " I do not see it in the bond." Here was
a most flagrant breach of national faith; for he (Mr. Fox) held
the faith of the company to have been as strongly pledged to
Cheyt Sing, by the governor's letter, as it was possible to pledge
it. The affair of the begums of Oude was another circum-
stance in which the honour of the nation had been wounded.
These two princesses were the mother and the grandmother
of the vizier of Oude, and the lands assigned to them for their
support had been guaranteed to them by the company; and
yet, notwithstanding this guarantee, the vizier was permitted
by Mr. Hastings to dispossess the princesses, and strip them
of their dower.


It appeared from all the letters and orders of the court of -
directors, that the uniform tenour of their instructions to their
servants abroad was to conduct their affairs with a view solely
to commercial purposes, and not with any view to aggrandise-
ment; whereas it was evident that the latter had been the chief
object of the company's servants. In proof of this, he mention-
ed the Rohilla war, as another instance of the lengths that the
company's servants may carry injustice ; the rajah of that
country was persecuted with fire and sword, and his territories
laid waste, for no other reason, that he could discover, but that
his country had always been, what it always would be, a per-
fect garden. The Mahratta war was another source of cala-
mity to the company, and another instance of the disregard
which was paid to the spirit of the system laid down by the
directors, of pursuing commerce, and not acquisition. He
would not say that it was begun by Mr. Hastings ; it certainly
took its rise from the presidency of Bombay; but it was adopt-
ed by him; and he would not say that the terms of the peace
with that people were such, as the merit of having made it
ought to outweigh the demerits of having engaged in the war;
certain it was, that this new treaty was infinitely less advanta-
geous to us than ,that of Poorunder, which had been broken.
He added a case, if possible, still more inhuman; and declared,
that in the statement of these particulars, he lad been actuated


MR. rox's EAST INDIA BILLS. 207


by no personal enmities, nor did he aim at any restrospective
views. His eloquence in this part of his speech was truly
great and masterly.


Having stated these various grievances and abuses in the
government of India, his next object was to point out the re-
medies that he intended to apply to them. lie declared, no-
thing but strong measures could possibly be expected to effect
a thorough reform. Strong, however, as the system was
which he should have the honour to propose ; abundantly too
harsh as he was aware it would be thought by some, it was a
palliative, an emollient, a half measure compared to the idea
of leaving things in their present condition. He hoped, there-
fore, the House would, on this occasion, take the advice given
by a right honourable gentleman on a former day; that they
would look their real situation with regard to India in the
face; that they would examine it thoroughly, view its defor-
mity, and proceed with firmness to adopt and enforce that ap-
plication, and that remedy, which the inveteracy of the case
required.


With regard to the existence of great defects in the present
system of governing India, and the dangerous and deplorable
extent of the mischiefs and abuses arising from those defects,
the House, Mr. Fox observed, were well acquainted. The
great difficulty lay in chusing the mode of remedying the de-
fects that had been so fully ascertained. On former occasions,
doubts had been started on this question ; To whom belong
the territorial acquisitions in India ? Many, and grave persons,
were of opinion, that they belonged to the crown; and they
argued, that it was absurd that a body of merchants should be
supposed capable of managing and governing great territories,
and entering into all the mazes and refinements of modem
politics. He was aware also, that very weighty persons had,
011 the other hand, maintained, that the territories belonged of
right to the company; and they retorted very justly, saying
that it was equally absurd to suppose that mere statesmen were
qualified to enter into, and conduct the complicated branches
of a remote and difficult trade. To this latter opinion, he
was himself inclined to lean. His idea, therefore, with re-
gard to India, was to form a mixed system of government,
adapted, as well as the nature of the case would admit, to the
mixed complexion of our interests in India. He was willing,
in the first instance, to leave the question of right to the terri-
torial possessions, just as it now stood, that was to say, unde-
cided. It was generally thought, that if government should
even take the territorial possessions into their hands, they
Would be under the necessity of keeping up a company to carry




208 MR. PDX'S EAST INDIA BILLS. [Nov. 18.
on a trade, by which alone the revenues of India could be con-
verted to the benefit of Great Britain.


His Plan was to establish a board, to consist of seven per-
sons, who should be invested with full power to appoint and
displace officers in India, and under whose control the whole
government of that country should be placed ; the other class
to consist of eight persons, to be called assistants, who should
have charge of the sales, outfits, &c. of the company, and in
general of all commercial concerns, but still be subject to the
control of the first seven. The board he would have held in
England, under the very eye of parliament ; their proceedings,
should be entered in books for the inspection of both Houses.
Their servants abroad should be obliged to make minutes of
all their proceedings, and enter them into books to be trans-
mitted to Europe; and if ever they should find themselves un-
der the necessity of disobeying an order from the board, (and
he was ready to admit, that cases might occur, when not only
it would not be blameable to disobey orders, but when dis-
obedience would be even meritorious,) a minute should be en-
tered, stating the reason of such disobedience : and on the same
principle, lie meant to oblige the council at home to make
minutes of their reasons, as often as their orders should not
be complied with, and they should not immediately recall the
servant who had disobeyed their instructions. This, he was
aware, was new, when applied to the common course of busi-
ness; but the long practice of it by the India company had
proved its utility.


He meant to lodge a discretional power with the council,
Which their responsibility would require. If it appeared to
them, that a servant of the company had acted in disobedience
of orders from home, from the immediate exigency of affairs,
or that he had an obvious good intention in so doing, or that
it was for other reasons inexpedient to recall him, they should
be obliged to assign in a minute, as short as they pleased, why
they did not recall him, and thus avow what they would justify
as the expedient grounds of their conduct. This would en-
sure security to the commissioners, and oblige them to act on
motives of necessary precaution. The company's servants
abroad were already in the habit of entering minutes, and it
was a custom of infinite utility; for if no such custom had ex-
isted, India would have been unavoidably lost to us ; for we
never should have been able, without these minutes, to trace
the melancholy effects up to their true causes.


For the present, he intended that parliament should name
all the persons who should sit at this board; but then it should
be only pro hdc vice : be felt already the inconvenience of par-
liamentary appointments; for at present the governor-general


/783.] MR. FOX'S EAST INDIA RILLS. 209


of Bengal, deriving under an act of parliament, seemed to dis-
avow any power in the court of proprietors, directors, or the
king himself to remove him. He would have the board to be
established for three or five years ; orfor such a length of time
as should be thought sufficient to try the experiment, how far
this new establishment might be useful. When that should
be known, if experience should have proved its utility, then he
proposed that in future the king should have the nomination
of the seven first. If any of the eight assistant counsellors
should die, the vacancies should be


ight
up by the court of


Proprietors. A learned gentleman (Mr. Dundas) in tile bill
he brought into parliament last year, proposed to give the
most extraordinary powers to the governor-general of Bengal ;
he at the same time named the person who was to fill that
office. The person was Earl Cornwallis, a nobleman whom
he (Mr. Fox) named now, only for the purpose of paying ho-
mage to his great character; the name of such a man mightb •
make parliament consent to the vesting of such powers in a
governor-general : ,but certain he was, that nothing but the
great character of that noble lord could ever induce the leais-
lature to commit such powers to an individual, at the distance
of half the globe. In this plan the greatest powers might be
intrusted with the board, because the members of it would be
at home, and under the eye of that House, before whom their
proceedings must be laid. The learned gentleman had in-
trenched his bill behind the character of Lord Cornwallis, but
he (Mr. Fox) would not mention a single name that he intend-
ed to insert in his bill : not because he was afraid they should
not be found most respectable; but because he wished the bill
might rest for support on its own merits, and not on the cha-
racters of individuals.


There were other points on which he had formed an inten-
tion to touch, and for which lie must bring in a second bill, in
aid and reinforcement of the first. An absurd opinion seemed
to prevail in Indostan, that all the lands belong absolutely to
the emperor, and that therefore they may be disposed of at
Pleasure. Upon this principle it had been customary to -turn
the ancient zemindars, land-owners, or sentry of the country
cut of their possessions, if others were found who would pay
more for them. This was a destructive custom, built on an
absurd and erroneous opinion ; it destroyed agriculture and
improvements, and took away that stimulus to the acquisition
of property, the consciousness that it would be permanent :
il ia plan would be, to enact, that upon the payment of certain
fixed rents or tributes, the landholders should enjoy the un-
disturbed possession of their lands, which no power should
lake from them : and in this he trusted he should be. most


VOL. u.




210 MR. FOx's EAST INDIA BILLS. [Nov. 8.


powerfully seconded by the humanity and justice of parlia-
ment.


He stated also, as a very important object of his bill, and
which stood much in need of correction, the practice of the
company's servants receiving presents from the Indian princes,
and others, the dependants on the company. This was, he
said, the grand original, the prinzum mobile of all the rapacity,
disobedience, injustice, and cruelty, that had disgraced the
British government in India. In vain had the court of direc-
tors sent over injunction after injunction, to forbid the com,
pany's servants from taking any present, on any pretence, from
the Indian princes and zemindars. In vain had an express act
of parliament passed to forbid the practice. The orders of
the court of directors, the acts of the British legislature, were
held in equal, and the most supreme contempt at Bengal. A
stronger proof of this could not be adduced than the conduct
ofMr. Hastings., who had accepted various presents, and among
others a present of one hundred thousand pounds from a rajah,
who, at the very time, stood deeply indebted to the company, and
who pleaded the most abject distress, in excuse for not paying
the company what he owed them, This hundred thousand
pounds, it was true, Mr. Hastings had afterwards brought to the
account of thecompany, but it was a considerable time first, and
in the interim he had lent it to them upon bond, and charged a:.
high interest; nay, such was the opinion of Mr. Hastings himself
upon the transaction, that he had written home word to the
court of directors, " that lie did not know whether he had any
particular motive that had influenced him to accept this pre-
sent, but if he had any at the time, it was really out of his
mind." Mr. Hastings's agent, Mr. Scott, had also told the
committee, when examined by them, that it was better worth
the while of the rajah of Oude to make Mr. Hastings a pre-
sent .of one hundred thousand pounds, than to pay any part of
his just debts to the company. Mr. Fox laid great stress upon
the whole of this narration, and urged it as a glaring proof of
his former opinion, that the servants of the East India conk-
pany in India were thought by the natives to possess more
power than their masters, and that it was evident they held
the orders of the court of directors, and even the acts of the
British parliament, in sovereign contempt.


Another point to which he designed to direct the correc-
tion his bill was intended to administer, was, to the abolition
of all monopolies. These he stated to be extremely unfair
in the first instance, extremely pernicious, and as tending
to consume the vitals of commerce, rather than to feed,
to cherish, or to lend it rigour. He mentioned the ifl0
nopoly for opium, that had been given to the son of a late


II


1783.] MR. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS. /I 1


chairman of the East India company, who sold the contract for
a considerable premium the very same day, and in consequence,
the trade for opium was absolutely lost to the company. It
had been often suggested, that it would be advisable to give
to the Gentoos the laws of England; but such an attempt
would be ridiculous and chimerical ; the customs and religion
of India clashed too much with them: but though the laws
could not be established among them, yet their spirit and ef-
ficacy might; and this great principle might be carried into
effect, that no man should be deprived of his lands, while he
fulfilled the conditions under which he held them. It might
be proper to have a retrospect here, and to restore all those who
had been dismissed since any given period ; for instance, since
1772, and to bind them to the payment of such rents or tri-
butes as they paid at that period. He had turned his thoughts
also to the devising of some means, whereby criminals in
India might be brought to justice fiere, a circumstance of
the greatest importance. On this head, he had heard dif-
ferent opinions : some thought that the laws already in being
were perfectly adequate to that end; while others insisted,
that they were wholly insufficient ; and therefore that there
was no other mode of prosecuting such criminals, but by bills
of pains and penalties. All. those who had been witnesses
to the : proceedings of last year, would agree with him, that
this was a wretched inefficient mode to resort to. He had
thought of establishing a permanent tribunal for trying such
criminals ; but he felt very strong objections to such an in-
stitution : gentlemen would conceive, that it would be dif-
ficult for such judges to resist the attacks of friends and rela-
tions; and it would therefore be improper, if solicitations
should prevail, to send a criminal to be tried before that
court. The matter was full of difficulties ; and he was ready
to own, that he was not prepared as yet to bring in any bill
on that subject; not only because he had not the assistance
of the two great law officers of the crown, who were not at
that moment members of the House, but, in fact, because
he had not yet been able to arrange a plan that could please
himself. He owned he had an idea in his mind on the
subject, but it was not sufficiently matured for the House to
he made acquainted with it.


I-le' begged that, in the discussion. of the bills he should.grove for leave to bring in, gentlemen would not involve two
things that were perfectly distinct; the merits or demerits of
the hills, and the merits or demerits of Mr. Hastings. This




1vas not a day of trial for that gentleman : the bills had no
';?trospect ; not but he was ready to own, that upon the rea-
"less he should find in the House to receive his bills; it de'


P 2




212
MR. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS. [Nov. I 8,


pended whether there should be a retrospect or not. At
present, there was no connection between the bills and Mr.
Hastings: he might be the most honest, upright, humane,
and just governor that ever existed; and yet the bills pro-
posed might be highly proper. On the other hand, he might
be the most corrupt peculator, and the most cruel and unjust
governor that ever cursed the plains of Indostaii; and yet the
remedy proposed in these bills might be found inadequate.
All he asked was, that they might be considered by them-
selves, without any reference to any man. If influence on this
occasion should manifest itself, the consequences might be
alarming : no future governor would ever go to India, without
looking to influence in that House; and if the day should
come, when the whole force of patronage in India should be.
employed for the purpose of creating influence in that House,
what would become of India? Peculations there would be
protected here; and the plunderers would be protected by
the sharers in the plunder. He trusted that gentlemen in
general would meet the question fairly, and not make that a
personal consideration, which had nothing personal in it.
The influence of the crown, they had been used to say, was
too great. He thanked God it had been considerably di-
minished; but the influence of the crown, in its most enor-
mous and alarming state, was nothing, compared to the
boundless patronage of the East India government, if tile
latter was to be used in influence of that House. The coun-
try was lost indeed, lost beyond all hope or possibility of
recovery, if the boundless patronage of the East was to be
employed, to prevent government from making a reform,
called for in the loudest manner, and urged onwards by the
most immediate and most pressing necessity. He spoke not
this from a fear of tile influence to which he had alluded; he
trusted no attempt would be made to exert it in the present
instance; because if a minister was afraid to come down to
the House, and propose a measure, grounded on the most
urgent necessity, there would at once be an end. of all go-
vernment.


At the same time that he said this, he was aware the mea-
sure lie had proposed was a strong one. He knew, that the
task he had that clay set himself was extremely arduous and
difficult, he knew that it had considerable risk in it ; but
when he took upon himself an office of responsibility, he had
made up his mind to the situation and the danger of it.
had left all thoughts of ease, indolence, and safety behind Ilia)•
He remembered an honourable friend near him (Mr. Burke)
had once said, half in jest, half in earnest, " that idleness was
the best gift that God had bestowed upon man." But this


1783.] MR. Fox's EAST INDIA BILLS. - 213
was not a time for indolence and regard to safety in a minister.
The situation of the country called for vigorous exertion, for
new measures, and for some risk; he knew, that a minister
who had no consideration but his own safety, might be quiet
and safe; the consequence must be, tile country would be
ruined. How much better was it to venture what the exi-
n
(racy of affairs required; the minister it was true might be




ruined, but his country would be saved. The one considera-
tion ought to have no weight compared to the other. Nor
had indolent men any business in office at such a crisis as the
present. This was not a season for a secretary of state to be
idle. The minister who loved his ease, or rather who was
not determined to exert himself, had no business with green
boxes and green bags. His office was for active employ,
and if lie preferred indolence to application, he ought to
retire to private life, where he might enjoy his leisure without.
injury to the public. [A smile from opposition.] Mr. Fox took
notice of the smile, and said, the subject of a measure adopted
by him last session, had then been so repeatedly and so fully
discussed, that tile gentlemen on the other side must excuse
him, if he declined saying any thing more upon the subject ;
thus much he would only then say, that it had been thought
a matter worth trying, if a junction with those, from whom
he had long differed, might not be made with safety, after
the points upon which they had differed most widely were at
an end, and whether they might not act together on new
points with honour for the good of the country. That ex-
periment had been tried, and he was happy to say, that the
experience of the summer had confirmed him in his expec-
tations. The noble lord and he not having had any one
material difference, nor indeed any variety of opinion, far-
ther than that sort of occasional difference which men of
honour, determined to act freely, to give their opinion to each
other without reserve, and from candid argument to deduce
conviction, might warrantably and fairly be supposed to en-
tertain. On the present occasion, lie lamented most sincerely
the want of the great abilities of the noble lord to support
11101 in the arduous task of tile day; and he more particularly
lamented, that his loss should be owing to personal illness
and infirmity. He was, however, happy to be able to assure
that House, that he and the noble lord had consulted to-
getlaer upon the subject; that they perfectly coincided in
sentiment and opinion ,upon it ; and he trusted, the bill
Would be some time in passing, that he should still have the
benefit of' the noble lord's powerful support. With regard
to the smile the gentlemen on the other side -had chosen to
assume at his observations upon indolence, he could not be


k3




214 MR. iO
X


'S EAST INDIA plus.


supposed to allude to the noble lord's administration, because
they roust know many new projects were carried into prac.
tice during that administration, projects, which, in common
with those gentlemen, he had thought detrimental to the in_
terests of the country, and which they had together laboured
to prevent.


Mr. Fox now came to a conclusion ; and again begged
leave to impress the idea on the minds of the House, that he
had not intruded himself in this business officiously; that it was
not a mean and interested expedient for the purpose of for-
tifying a party, or to add to the influence of the crown. As
he had said, it was a strong measure, because it was a great
resolution; but. considering it as he and his colleagues did,
necessary to the salvation of the company, and, with the
company, of the state, he had applied to it with the greatest
earnestness, and had brought it forward without the loss of a
moment. He then moved, " That leave be given to bring in
a bill, for vesting the affairs of the East India company in
the hands of certain commissioners, for the benefit of the pro-
prietors and the public." His second motion would be,


That leave be given to bring in a bill for the better govern-
ment of the territorial possessions and dependencies in India."


After a short debate, leave was given to bring in the bills, and
Mr. Secretary Fox, Mr. North, Lord John Cavendish, and Mr.
Erskine, were ordered to prepare, and bring in the same.


November 20.
This clay Mr. Secretary Fox presented to the House a bill " for


vesting the affairs of the East India company in the hands of
certain commissioners for the benefit of the proprietors and the
public." It was read the first time, and ordered to be printed.
Mr. Fox next moved, that it be read a second time on this clay
se'nnight. This occasioned a debate ; Mr. W. Grenville opposed
the motion, and as the business was of such importance, he gave
it as his opinion, that the Christmas recess should intervene before
the second reading. He said, the right honourable secretary
meant to take the House, not only by force, but by violence ; and
therefore, it became the business of every member, who regarded
the liberties of his country, to stand forward on this occasion. The
bill, he said, made an attack upon the most solemn charters affirmed
and confirmed by the sacred faith of parliament; it broke through
all those ties which should bind man to man, and was fraught with
the most pointed mischief against national honour and the integrity
of English legislation. He wished the second reading to be
postponed till after the call of the House.— Mr. Jenkinson ima-
gined that the point which wanted most to be determined was)
whether the bill ought to be read a second time next Thursday,
or put off till the House had been called over. He 'could see but


1783.]


MR. tux's EAST INDIA BILLS. 215


'Jule difficulty in determining that point ; for if the object before
them was interesting, it certainly was the duty of every one present
to prolong the time, before its investigation, to- the latest period.
He stated the commission as the setting up within the realm a
species of executive government, independent of the check or
controul of the crown. This he deemed an innovation on the con-
stitution, and therefore a matter that ought to be most seriously
examined. He charged the system also with injustice, inasmuch
as in the right honourable secretary's opening it the other day,
he had rested the necessity of it entirely on the misconduct 'of
the governor-general in India ; whereas by the operation of the
system, the faults of the servants were to be punished on the
masters. He said several things respecting the very dangerous
tendency of the bill, and exposed the boldness of the men who
could venture to propose a measure that threatened such ruinous
consequences to British liberty. But his chief force was directed
against the influence which Ministers were likely to derive from
the event of such a terrible system. He said it would not only
give them an unbounded power over the interests and possessions
of the East, but render their posts so formidable as to- endanger
the rights of every free Englishman. — Mr. Scott, who spoke,
.on this occasion, for the first time, observed, that the bill seemed
to him rather of a dangerous nature, but he would not declare
against it. He would rather wait till more light had been thrown
upon the subject.


Mr. Secretary Fox followed Mr. Scott. He paid some
handsome compliments to him, and expressed a high opinion
of his abilities, and the goodness of his intentions. Though
he had not had the pleasure of hearing him speak before in
that House, yet he was not a stranger to his eloquence, and
did not doubt of hearing it employed at all times on the side
of equity. He could not, however, forbear taking notice of
one thing that bad fallen from the honourable gentleman's
mouth. He had observed, that before we could decide, it
was necessary to deliberate; but how had he acted in the
present instant? Not, surely, consistently with the maxim he
had laid down; for, without any opportunity of deliberating,
he had ventured to give his decision, and he thought with a
good deal of positiveness.


The right honourable secretary observed, that he could
foresee what was to conic from an honourable gentleman on
the opposite side of the House (Mr. Jenkinson) long before
it came to his turn to speak. He well knew that the crown
influence, which was a favourite topic with the honourable
gentleman who first opposed the motion, would be taken up
by him. He could not blame him for taking up his honour-
able friend's cause, although he thought that it would not
have been done in the manner he did. To see each-gentle-


r 4




216 • MR. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS.
[Nov. 20.


man acting by instructions, and speaking what his friend had
broached, was rather to view them in an inferior light. He
really thought that they were both able enough, at least they
ought to be able enough, to think ,and speak for themselves.
But when he heard the doctrine of separating the crown
and its ministers, and talking of them as divided interests,
broached by the right honourable gentleman, who opened
the debate, he looked immediately at the last speaker but
one, convinced that he would be the leading speaker of the
day, for that such a doctrine could originate in no other
quarter. In some respects, indeed, the ministers and the
crown were distinct objects : where the measures of govern-
ment called for censure or punishment, there the ministers
alone were responsible; but with regard to most other points
of view, nothing could be so egregious as the endeavour to
draw a distinction. In the present case, in order to guard as
much as possible against the danger of increasing the influence
of the crown, the ministers were loaded with. a responsibility
that balanced their power, and insured to the people that no
ill use would be made of it : besides, who were appointed to
check and control it but that House? With regard to that
crown power, or rather ministerial power, for so they had
absurdly called it, he saw no difficulty in answering all the ob-
jections that had been started to his bill on that account ; for
it never was intended that the crown influence should be in,
creased by the plan proposed, at least but in a small degree. The
appointment of the commissioners was in the hands of parlia-
ment; and he hoped parliament would at all times keep a
watchful eye to the proceedings of administration. When
his principles led him to oppose ministry, he always viewed
the measures of administration with jealous attention ;
it was his wish, and it should always be his wish, to have
his actions scrutinized by parliament; it was their undoubted
right to do so, and he hoped it was a right they never would
lose sight of: He could not, he said, dismiss the topic,
without combating a little the witty, but at the same time in-
vidious, distinction that had been made between ministerial
power and crown power; for his part, he could discover no
ground for the distinction ; he had always considered, that
whatever conferred power on the ministry, conferred at the
same time an equal share of power on the crown, and vice
versti. There were, perhaps, some little circumstances in
which their interests might not altogether clash ; but these
were few indeed, and of no moment. The right honourable
secretary now attacked the references which Mr. Grenville had
made to the protests of some noble lords, amongst which was
the respectable one of the late Marquis of Rockingham, and


z 4


17 8 3 . ] MR. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS. 2 1 7


some others now high in station. As the honourable gentle-
man, and his relation in the other house, were both able to
speak f'r themselves, it would be quite as proper if they ca-
tered less for each other, and delivered in their different situ-
ations what better belonged to those situations respectively.
Had that been the case, we should not have heard in the other
house, on the first day of the session, a laboured harangue
about the definitive treaty not being completed with Holland,
nor that day in the house in which he was then speaking, an
extract from a protest in the House of Lords. He said, the
House of Commons was not to be guided by the decisions of
any court whatever, in matters which properly belonged to
itself; and however weighty in the business before die House
the honourable gentleman might suppose those protests, he
could assure him that they appeared not of such force to him.
Those noble lords were, perhaps, right in giving in their pro-
test; but had the gentlemen considered whether their motives
were not different from any motives that might be supposed to
influence the opposers of the bill under consideration ? Gen-
tlemen would recollect, that on the first day of the session he
was called upon by a right honourable gentleman to bring
forward no palliative, no half measure. How inconsistent,
then, was it now to arraign that for being too bold, which it
was declared then could not be too vigorous ! But the fact
was this : the right honourable gentleman was loud in calling
for it — why? Because he thought no system was ready. This
explained his language then, and the very opposite language he
opposed to the system when it was brought forward. The
state of affairs in India at. that moment, he said, was such,
that even a palliative remedy was desirable ; but it was not
his intention to redress the grievances of India by palliatives
only; he wished to see something done that might penetrate
to the root of the disease, and he made no doubt but gentle-
men would find the remedy that had been proposed equal to
the end it had in view. The several clauses had been read :
and when they were understood, he flattered himself the lan-
guage of the House would be different. As to the proposition
for deferring the consideration of' the bill till the House had
been called over, he could see no good end to be gained by
that. Submitted it must be to the consideration of the
other House; 'slid as they did not know what time their
Lordships might chuse to detain it, as they would certainly
detains it as long as was consistent with the dignity of the
House they sat in; as that was the case, lie thought that no
time ought to be lost. Gentlemen who wished to be prepared,
had time enough to do so before Thursday ; and he could
look upon the desire of a long delay as nothing but a subter-




218 MR. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS. tNOV. 26.


fug to defeat the purposes of the bill. It was, indeed, in
that light he viewed the conduct of the honourable gentleman
who moved- the House for a call of the members. He wished
to have the House called, because he knew they would not
come. Had he proposed the day which the honourable gen-
tleman proposed, he was sure he would have mentioned some
posterior one. The very business before them, he said, had
been hinted at, and not obscurely, sometime towards the con-
clusion of last session ; and besides, it was both mentioned in
his majesty's speech which closed that session, and that with
which he opened the present session ; so that there was no just
ground for pleading want of information of the affairs before
them. He concluded with saying, that he did not despair of
seeing a happy issue of that political system which had been
supposed to have its rise in despotism, and its foundation in
corruption.


The question was carried without any division.


November 26.


Mr. Secretary Fox brought in his second bill relative to India.
It was entitled, " A Bill for the better Government of the Territo-
rial Possessions and Dependencies in India." Sir Edward Astley
said he did not mean to oppose , the bill then ; but he still thought
that gentlemen ought to proceed with caution in a measure, by
which so much influence would. be thrown into the hands of the


A bill of infinitely less moment, which gave infinitely lesscrown.
influence, had been opposed by some of the first and best men in
this country, because it tended to encrease, though in a small de.-
awe the influence of the crown and its ministers ; if therefore a
Measure should be adopted that would put ministers into posses-
sion of an extent of patronage, immense in every sense of the word,
and that might in its consequences threaten the liberties and con-
stitution of this country, gentlemen might then find it necessary to
come again to vote, " that the influence of the Crown has in-
creased, is increasing, and ought to be diminished." He was
ready to allow, that from the present state of the company's af-
fairs, some regulations were necessary. He was ready also to al-
low, that a company of merchants were not qualified to govern
great territorial possessions ; but still he had a right to be on his
guard,est the measures proposed to' remedy the evil complained'


7
of should prove ruinous to the liberty of this country.


Mr. Secretary Fox observed, that the honourable baronet's
remarks were pointed, not against the bill then immediately
under the consideration of the House, but against the other
which he had the honour to present a few days ago ; and


783.] 1:1R. FOx's EAST INDIA BILI. g . 219
when that bill should become the subject of debate, he would.
endeavour to defend it against tile different objections that
Mould be urged against it. With respect to the influence


Jiat it would give to the crown, it would be the duty of its
opposers to shew that it was unnecessarily proposed, and that
influence Nvas,


the object, and not an adventitious circumstance
in the bill. This sort of opposition was fair and parliamentary,
and he hoped it would be followed. He hoped,. that no gen-
tleman would object to the bill singly, or consider it in a sin.
(rle point of' view ; but that, while it was stated that the bill
tended to increase the influence of the crown, the necessity of
adopting some measure respecting the future government of
India would be taken into consideration, and then the ques-
ion with respect to the influence of the crown would stand


on its true ground, and the only point in doubt would be,
whether the that was to be read a second time the next day,
increased the influence of the crown in a manner that was un-
necessary. He was glad, however, to hear the honourable
baronet say that he felt the necessity of making some regula-
tions, and that a company of merchants were not fit to govern
a vast tract of territorial possessions. As to the bill imme-
diately before the House, its principle was clearly unobjec-
tionable on the score of influence; for so far from giving any
influence, this bill was particularly to guard against it; he
presumed, therefore, - . that there would be no opposition to the
sending of the bill to a committee, for whatever objection
could arise, it must, in his opinion, be to the provisions, and
not to the bill itself; he was not so vain As to suppose that he
could frame a bill that embraced so many objects, and con-
tained so great a number of regulations, which should not be
liable in many places to objections ; it would be for the wisdom
of the committee to make such alterations in the clauses as
they should judge necessary.


Mr. William Pitt said, that it was not possible for him to form a
just judgment of a bill of such a length, from the cursory manner
in which it had been read ; but as far as he could judge, lie was
free to say that the principle of it did not strike him, as being at all
a-kin to that of the other bill which was brought in last week ; and
at present he saw no objection to its going to a committee. How-
ever it could not be expected, that he should pledge himself to
support it, or any part of it, until he should have read and well
considered the whole of the bill. — Mr. Arden observed, that the
bill mentioned in various places the commissioners to whom the
company's affairs should be intrusted ; this sheaved that it de-
pended upon another bill, and would therefore be nugatory and
absurd if that bill should not pass ; and it was not a matter so cer-
tain as the right honourable secretary seemed to suppose, that the
bill would pass.




[N220


/UR. Fox's EAST INDIA BILLS.
ov. 27.


Mr. Secretary Fox in answer to this observation said, that
let the fate of the other bill be what it might, this bill would
not, in his opinion be nugatory and absurd; the necessity
of regulations was admitted on all hands; and let who might
be entrusted with the management of the company's affilirs,
these regulations wou:d be necessary ; he therefore wished the
bill might be gone through as speedily as possible; nay, that
it might be passed even before the other bill; and therefore
care might be taken in the committee to insert a clause,
which should declare, that let the government .of the com-
pany be in whom it might, whether directors or commis-
sioners, the powers given by this bill should rest in them.
With such a clause as this, the bill would not be dependent
upon any other ; and would be complete, though the other
should be lost. (Mr. Pitt nodded approbation.) He owned
for his part he wished it to proceed with as much dispatch as
possible; but as he was not vain enough to think, that any
bill he could fabricate would be perfect, or that a bill con-
taining so large a number of various regulations, would not
call for much discussion, and even some alteration, he cer-
tainly would give due time for gentlemen to consider the
subject.


The bill was ordered to be printed, and read a second time on.
Tuesday.


November 27.


Mr. Secretary Fox moved the order of the day for the second
reading of the bill " for vesting the Affairs of the East India Com-
pany in the hands of certain Commissioners for the benefit of the
Proprietors and the Public." The motion was agreed to ; the bill
was read, as were also the petitions from the courts of proprietors
and directors of the East India company ; and their counsel were
then called to the bar. Mr. lions and Mr. Dallas appeared, for the
proprietors; and Mr. Hardinge and Mr. Plomer for the court of
directors. As soon as the counsel had withdrawn, Mr. Secretary
Fox and Sir James Lowther rose nearly at the same time, and each
was supported by numerous friends, in his pretensions to speak
first ; but Sir James having said that he was going to speak to or-
der, Mr. Fox sat clown. Sir James then said, that he would not
for any length of time prevent the right honourable gentleman
from making his defence, for having introduced a bill that had for
its object the violation of the most sacred rights of Englishmen.
What he had to observe on the present occasion was, that it would be
necessary, before gentlemen should proceed to debate the bill, that
the accounts delivered in at the bar should be read ; for as the
bankruptcy of the East India company was the pretence 'for bring-


1783.] MR. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS. 221
lug in the bill, it would be necessary that every paper should be
read that could prove either the truth or falsehood of the argu-
ment drawn from the supposition of such bankruptcy. The Speaker
said, that in point of order, all papers delivered in at the bar by
witnesses, were considered as evidence already given to the House,
and therefore it was not necessary that they should be read, except
pro, foram, and every member might argue from them as if they
had been read. He called upon the old members of the House to
Bet him right, if he was wrong in his opinion. Mr. Kenyon could
not conceive how such an order could be reconciled with reason
or common sense. In the courts of law, if a paper was given in
evidence, and its authenticity was ascertained, it was always read ;
for if it was not, it could be of no service or disservice in the cause,
as the courtand jury, though, in fact, in possession of the paper,must
in reality, as long it remained unread, be totally unacquainted with
its contents. The Speaker replied, that when evidence was offered
by a counsel at the bar of the House, he might, if he pleased,
cause it to be read : but if he did not call for that, it was not the
custom of the House to read what the counsel did not think neces-
sary to have read. In some cases, the reading of papers delivered
at the bar was impracticable ; in many instances they were too vo-
luminous ; but any member might in debate advert to them, and
cause the whole, or any part, to be read as often as he should think
fit. The point of order being thus settled,


Mr. Secretary Fox rose to state his reasons for sending the
bill to a committee. The honourable baronet has said, that
he will not keep me from my defence ; and he calls my speak-
ing to the question of commitment a speech in my defence. I
allow him his assertion. I shall always consider myself as
speaking in my defence, when I rise up to speak to a propo-
sition so great and so important as that which I have now
presumed to offer to the wisdom of the House. Whenever I
rise up in this House to present a broad and comprehensive
scheme of policy to the nation, and that scheme is questioned,
charged, and arraigned, I shall always consider what I say in
its support as an argument in my own defence; because I shall
always consider my own character, my situation, my rank in
the country, as at stake on every measure of state which I
shall presume to undertake. The honourable baronet said
truly, therefore, that I was now rising to speak in my de-
fence: bat give me leave at the same time to assert, that I
have something better than my own defence in view, because
the present bill has something greater than my own advantage;
it is a bill which I from my soul believe to be necessary to the
deliverance of the empire, and it would be better supported in
my mind by arguments in support of its own principle, than
by harsh assertions of personality, which, however they may
gratify spleen, have nothing to do with the system submitted
to your consideration.




222 MR. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS. [Nov. 2,"


He was really surprized, that notwithstanding the various
objections that had been stated to this bill on a former day,
he found himself this day attacked upon a ground which he
had least expected. The violation of charters, the despotism
and oppression of the bill, were topics which he apprehended
would have been principally dwelt on this clay: but he found
that these grounds were nearly abandoned; and now he was
to be attacked on that side where he felt himself most strong:
yet he would confess, that he was sorry he was so strong
there, for his strength must be founded on the weakness of
the company. It was an old and a politic custom with
ministers, in talking in parliament in the time of war of the


z,strenerth and resources of the different bodies of the commu-
nity, to describe them as if they were in the most prosperous
and flourishing condition, and, perhaps, he should himself
conform to that custom, if the country was now involved in
war. The situation of the country, however, was such as
would not now allow the practice of those deceptions. We
could only assist the nation, by knowing and declaring what
the amount of its distress was. Had not this been the case;
had not the most urgent necessity impelled, he never would
have brought in such a bill as that under discussion. The'
bill wa.; a child not of choice but of necessity. In like Man-
ner, •he answer he was about to give to the directors' state of
the company's affairs, was not a matter of option, but a mat-
ter which he could not avoid, in justice to the company, in
justice to himself, and in justice to the world. He assured.
the House at the same time, that though his defence must
arise from that weakness, he wished most sincerely that he
had no such ground of defence; the weakness of a company
so connected with the public, was not a theme which could
afford any satisfaction : but as he would stake his reputation
on the necessity of the measure he proposed, so it afforded
him, as far as his character was concerned, some satisfaction,
that he could find in the company's own accounts substantial -
proofs of the necessity of a parliamentary interposition. But,
he confessed, that while an honourable and learned gentle-
man, who sat opposite to him now, and who was likely to
do so on all occasions, (Mr. Dundas, who sat on the opposi-
tion side of the House, close by Mr. Pitt,) and other ho-
nourable gentlemen in that House, could be appealed to as
evidence of the alarming state of the affairs of the company,
he had not imagined that any long or elaborate proof that
they were not in a prosperous condition, would be necessary.
Gentlemen, he said, would find that there was no great oc-
casion for them to lament, that the account which had been
delivered in at the bar by the East India company's account-


MR. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS. 2231783-3
wit , bad not been read by the clerk, as he should, in the
course of his speech, be obliged to touch upon most of the
points that it contained. In this account he- found many
things inserted, which ought to have been omitted; and many
things omitted, which ought to have been inserted. Through
these assertions, and these omissions, the company's affairs
were made to appear in a much more favourable point of
view than . he believed they would be seen in, when he should
have stated the different exceptions that he had to their ac-
count: but he begged leave again to call to the recollection
of the House, that he did not stand pledged to prove that
these were actual errors in the account. It might be regu-
larly calculated, and the sums very properly cast up. He
did not venture to say that there were positive falsehoods in
the statement; all that he said, and all that he was • pledged
for, was, that he would state rational objections to articles in
this account, to the amount of more than twelve millions.
These objections might not convince the House—they had
convinced him. He begged that gentlemen would go along
with him in the statement, and put down the articles as he
enumerated them; for in so complicated a matter, they could
not follow him from memory.


The first article in the account held out as the property
of the company; was 4,200,0001. as the debt due to the com-
pany from government, at 3 per cent. interest. To this
article he did not object: but he must make this observa-
tion; that this sum was to be considered as all other money
held in the funds of the country, as not otherwise available
to the individual than in respect of the annual interest, for
there was no obligation of payment; they could not force
the production of it; they could not make government come
to a settlement with them; but they stood exactly like the
other creditors of the public, secure of the interest, but not
armed with powers to come when they pleased at the princi-
pal. Another observation, too, occurred on this. They
took and stated this sum with evident error. Surely it was no
otherways to be estimated, than as they could carry their stock
to market. They were not to set it down in this statement
of their property at the nominal amount, but at the market-
able value of the commodity. The marketable value of the
commodity was three-liftlis of the nominal value, and at no
more ought they to have stated this sum of property, because
for DO more was the principal available in their present cir-
cumstances. It was very true, that this money was to be re-
paid to the company, if government should ever put an end
to the monopoly which the company enjoyed of the trade to
India, In that case, the full sum of 4,200,0001. must of




224 MR. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS. [NOv. 27.


course be paid ; but as the money was lent, and government
was never to repay the principal, if they chose, while they
continued the monopoly, he must say, it was not so very fair
to state the sum lent at the full value of 4,200,0001.; for if the
monopoly should, in any case, be annihilated, without the
will of government, then the Money, as he had said, could
not be called for ; and if the company wished to sell their in-
terest in that loan, which was sunk in the 3 per cents. they
would of course lose about two-fifths of the. whole ; and there:
fore the account should, in candour, have stated, that towards
paying their debts, they had in the 3 per cent. stock, a pro-
perty that would sell for 2,52o,ocol.


The next article was of a very singular nature indeed, and
gave the House a specimen of the principle on which this
account was made up. A charge Wa€.


made on government
of 260,6871. for the subsistence of prisoners in the war which
concluded in 1763. To this article he did not mean to ob-
ject, as a debt desperate, and to be altogether struck out;
but in their present emergency, was it to be considered as an
article of available property ? This claim was made on France
immediately on the conclusion of the war in 176 3 , and for
fifteen years in succession, that is, until the commencement
of the last war. The payment of the sum was constantly
sought for, and as steadfastly denied. Now, though he for his
own part would promise and pledge himself to the company,
that he would exert every effort of his mind and power to
accomplish this payment, though there was a negotiation
at this instant going on at Paris for the payment of it, and
though he would pledge himself also for the exertion and ac-
tivity of the noble duke now at Paris on the subject, still he
asked, if a sum which had been contended for in vain for so
long a time, was to be assumed in such an account as avail-
able property ?


The next article of 139,8771. for expences on the Manilla
expedition, and of 21, 4471. for hospital expellees, bore the
same complexion. They were all sums which had been in
contention for so long a time, that though they might be
fairly due, they could not be estimated as property at hand,
in fund, or come-at-able; they had been disallowed by every
succeeding treasury, including even that of the Earl of Shel-
burne; he therefore begged to ask the House, whether these
three sums making 422,0111. ought to have been brought for-
ward in the present statement as property applicable to the
discharge of their debts?


The next article was under the head of cash, which was
stated in money, in bonds paid in at the sales, and again to
be issued, and in debentures and custom notes, to amount to




1783.] MR. rox's EAST INDIA BILLS. 225
609,954 Now, to this he had an objection. The bonds
were here stated as cash, and no notice was taken of a very
material article, which was the discount on their being issued
again. They bore a very considerable discount, and an al-
lowance should have been made for this discount which they
must suffer, on their being again issued. They could not
take any advantage of them but by issuing them anew, and
they must be issued at a discount. Instead, therefore, of
stating them on this side of the account as cash, and charging
them on the other side as debts against themselves, they ought
to have stated merely the amount of the discount as an item
against themselves on the debtor side of the account.


The next sum was stated to be due for goods sold, but not
delivered, 5 5 3,2581. To this he had no objection. The
next article was the value of the goods in the warehouses,
of which the freights and duties were paid, 2,500,000/.
This he did not consider as proper to be taken in the way
which they had taken it. It was to be enquired whether they
could dispose of this property, and when,—whether they
could make it productive, and to the amount at which they
had taken it,—though he did not believe that they could ; yet
he did not object to this article. At the same time it might
have been proper for them to have stated the amount without
the customs. They charged themselves with the customs on
the other side indeed; but to have made the account regular,
the sum should have been regularly stated here without the
double entry.


The next was the merchandise exported to India, but not
included in the property here, as not being yet arrived,
1,219,09 11. When a man was making out a state of ac-
counts, to prove that he had in hand a sufficient quantity of
goods, which he could immediately, or in a reasonable time,
convert into money, one might be a little surprised to find
him enumerating articles which, in their nature, could not be
converted into money; and yet the company had acted pre-
cisely in this manner; for they stated that merchandise, to
the amount of 1,21 9,091/. had been exported to India, but
not included in the accounts of property there, not being
arrived when they were made up. Now, in this account were
included military stores, to the amount of about half that
sum, which were not to be used for auy mercantile purpose,
but were to be, if they had not already been, consumed by the
arm- ;y to the sum therefore of at least 6o0,0001. in this article,
he would certainly except : it formed no part of the means of
the company to pay their present debts, and therefore ought
Rot to have been included in an account of ways and means.
They could not bring them to- any market, and they were




VOL. 2




226 i'm. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS. [NOV. 27.


not to be taken as available property. On this article, there.
fore, he took 600,000l.


The next sum was for silver remaining in the treasury,
a,ogol. The only notice which he meant to take of this arti-
cle was, to declare his astonishment, or rather indeed not his
astonishment, but to point it out as a fact, which proved his
statement of their finances to be right. After enumerating
their millions afloat; their millions in the warehouses ; they
came to the calculation of their specie, and it amounted to the
sum of f ogo/. This reminded him of an article in one of our great •
bard's best plays, where speaking of one of his best characters,
it is said ; so much for sack ; so much fbr 'sugar; so much for
burnt hock ; so much for this, and so much for that; but for
the solid—the substantial—the staff of life—bread—one half.
penny : so it was with this flourishing company: they had
millions of goods, of bonds, of debts ; but of silver they had
one solitary thousand pounds.


The next article was for the advance of freight, to be de-
ducted on the arrival -of the ships, f 72,3347. 1 o this article
he had very great and solid objection. It was a piece of
complete and most unpardonable fidlacy. They stated, in
their favour, the advanced freight which they had paid, but
they had not taken against them, on the other side, the sum
of freight and demurrage, which they would have to pay. To
shew the fallacy of this article, he would suppose that he had
i 000l. to pay on his note next Monday, of which, however,
he had already advanced too/. In estimating his account he
took to his favour the od. which he had paid, but took no
notice, nor made any provision for the goo/. which he had to
pay. The company had advanced the freight on fifty-three
ships; of these, fourteen had come home, and there were
still thirty-nine ships behind ; but. of these, two had been
burnt and blown up ; so that there remained thirty-seven ships
in India, and coming home, on which the remaining freight
and demurrage was to be paid, and this was to be estimated
at 50,0001. a ship. So that, instead of this sum which they
had taken to their credit, they were to be charged in this
account with 1,85o,000/. for which they were bound, and
which they must pay. This he called a very unpardonable
fallacy. He desired to know what parliament would think
of any responsible minister, paymaster, or servant, who
should actin that manner. Or was it possible, that any man
appointedunder the present bill, and accountable to that House,
could present an account so miserably deficient as this was ?


The next sum was a small charge for their shipping
England, it was only 12,3001. and he might say de mimmis
non carat preetor ; `but still he must say a few words on the


1783.] MR. FOX'S EAST IND/A BILLS. 227


subject, as it spewed to what shifts the company thought
themselves driven, when they would suffer such an article to
he brought into an account; it could be merely for the pur-
pose of swelling at all events the total; this sum was estimated
to be the value of ships and vessels employed by the company
in England. - The meaning of this was, that the sale of these
vessels would produce that sum : but as such a sale could be
thought of only in case the company were going to sell off
their stock and give up business, he would object to the article;
because as nothing could be farther from his intention than to
dissolve the company, so no such sale could take place
while they should exist. The article of 2 5 3,6i 61. was excep-
tionable on the same ground : the company's houses and
buildings in London were estimated at that sum ; but as they
were not to be sold, he would object to the carrying of that
sum to the account of ways and means of the company. If
brought forward, it was to be brought forward on the pre-
sumption of their bankruptcy ; a presumption which he never
made, and which could not be taken.


To the article of 703,8241. taken as the prime cost of four
cargoes on their passage from Bengal, he objected in part.
It ought to have been stated, what was very well known, that
the company suffered a considerable loss by Bengal goods, and
this loss ought to have been deducted from the prime cost of
the four cargoes.


The Company estimated the four cargoes on their passage
from Bengal, at prime cost, to be 703,8247., to this were to
he added the duties, ta-caood., freight, 200,0001., which made
1,07 3 ,824 1., from which the sum of g6o,000/. being deducted,
as the whole of the value which those articles would here bring,
the company of course must be losers of 113,8241. To the
sum of 3 64,5151. stated as the value of cargoes dispatched
from Bengal to other presidencies, he intended also to object ;
because as these cargoes consisted of military stores, they
were not property that could be converted into money; and
consequently ought not to be stated as ways and means to pay
debts that pressed upon the company immediately. It was
in the nature of the article, to a moiety of which he had
already excepted, of military stores sent to India; and he
begged leave to remark, that whenever this sort of charge
occurred, he should object to it.


Re now came to the article, entitled, quick stock at Ben-
gal, under various denominations. In treasure and bills
777,3611. that he allowed. The goods for Europe dispatched


the goods imported and unsold—and the salt—but the ar-
ticle of stores unexpended he objected to, on the argument
a lready stated, and he took for this 680,5091. The sum ad-


2 2




2 28 MR. PDX'S EAST INDIA BILLS. [Nov. 27.


vanced to the Board of Trade was stated to be 837,4657. and
this was erroneous. The sum for investments was only
635,0001. and this sum ought to be less by x6o,oco/.
stated the particulars of this error also. It was not a little
singular to find by what means the company swelled up their
account of debts due to them, in order to chew what means
they were possessed of to pay their debts. In this place they
valued the current rupee at 2S. 3d. when every man knew
that to rate it at 2S. Id. was setting rather a high value on
it, the general exchange being at 2s.


The next article he would wish to press to the consideration
of the House : it was the debt due by the nabob Asoph ul
Dowla, 78 9,8281. This debt Was in the nature of many
others which were due to' us in India, and which had been
made the foundation of our various wars. A claim was made
on the nabobs, or the rajahs, for the debt which they owed.
Their answer was, that they were unable; but that their sub-
jects in a certain district were not only in arrears, but re-fractory, and therefore if the company would assist them
to reduce their subjects to obedience and payment, they would
pay their debts. On this pretext we entered on the war, and
what particular species of war we commenced might be drawn
from the records of the company—a war of horror and de-
vastation—we scoured deserted countries—we ravaged and
burnt the villages—we destroyed or we captured the women
and the infants—in this manner the Rohillas one year, the
Marawar country the next, then the Polygars were laid waste
and desolated, and those innocent and unprotected natives
destroyed; the men were murdered, the women imprisoned
and disgraced, their children left a prey to want, and every
religious and civil right: violated. To prove this he desired
the clerk might read a letter from Lieutenant-colonel Bonjour,
a Swiss officer in the company's service, which described the
manner in which he found a country, in India in 1 7 73, when
sent into it to force people to pay money : the villages were
deserted by the men, who left none in them but women and
children ; the men fell upon the English convoys, and cut them
Off; and put many of the soldiers to death. He represented
therefore that either the design must be given up, or reprisals
must be made on women and children, which would shock
humanity. He painted to them, in the warm colours of fee l


-ing, the scene of horror which the service exhibited, and de.-
precated such wars as inglorious and contemptible. Thank
God ! exclaimed Mr. Fox, they have always failed. TheY
have constantly been as unproductive of revenue as they 'were
productive of infamy. In every instance we have faded in
our object, but in no instance have we avoided die


783.] MR. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS. 2291


abhorrence, the contempt of mankind. He read also a let-
ter from the Soubah of Dude, of which the following is a
copy : " When the knife had penetrated to the bone, and I was
surrounded with such heavy distresses that I could no longer
live in expectations, I wrote you an account of my difficulties.
The answer which I have received to it is such, that it has
given me inexpressible grief and affliction. I never had the
least idea or expectation from you and the council, that you
would ever have given your orders in so afflicting a manner,
in which you never before wrote, and which I could not have
imagined. As I am resolved to obey your orders and direc-
tions of the council, without any delay, as long as I live, I
have, agreeably to those orders, delivered up all my private
papers to him (the resident) that when he shall have examined
my receipts and expenses, he may take whatever remains.
As I know it to be my duty to satisfy you, the company, and
council, I have not failed to obey in any instance, but requested
of him that it might be done so as not to distress me in my
necessary expellees; there being no other funds but those for
the expences of my mutseddies, household expellees, and ser-
vants, &c. He demanded these in such a manner, that being
remediless, I was obliged to comply with what he required.
He has accordingly stopped the pensions of my old servants
for thirty years, whether scpoys, mutseddies, or household
servants, and the expences of my family and kitchen, toge-
ther with the jaghircs of my grandmother, mother, and aunts,
and of my brothers and dependents, which were for their sup-
port. I had raised 1300 horse, and three battalions of sepoys,
to attend upon me; but, as I have no resource to support them,
I have been obliged to remove the people stationed in the
mahals (districts) and to send his people (the resident's people)
into the mahals; so that I have not now one single servant about
me; should I mention to what farther difficulties I have been
reduced, it would lay me open to contempt."


He would make no cninments on this letter, be would
leave it to the feelings of the House. All these debts from this
nabob, and from all the nabobs and rajahs, he wished at
once to strike off ; and he believed that the feelings and the
magnanimity of the country would go with him in saying, that
they would rather be doomed to pay all that the company
owed, ill as they could at this time bear it; ill as their sink-
ing-fund could sustain the shock, they would apply to that,
rather than wring it from the princes of the country, by
aiding them in wars on their i inieeent people. In this part
of his speech, all sides of the House joined in the exclamation
or " hear ! hear !" as the testimony of their approbation.


The next article was, debts due by the company in Bengal,
cp.x.ses, the




23o MR. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS. [Nov. 27.
on bond and otherwise, 2,367,1161. Upon this he only ob-
served, that from the word otherwise, it might he imagined
that there were considerable debts not on bond, whereas the
whole amount was on bond except co,000l.


-With this ob-
servation to mark the style of the account, he allowed the
same. But there was a very curious and singular matter 00.. -
curred here. It stated that the arrears due to the army did
not appear; but by a subsequent minute it did appear, that
the arrears up to March 1783, amount to 502,174/. This they
state to come by the last dispatches. Would it not be imagined
that at least they would bring this soo,00d. to account ? Not
one figure of it. He asked the House what they would think
of government, if having accounts from abroad of arrears
due to the army, they failed to bring half a million forward ?
Would they not impeach the defaulter? wished,


-there-
fore, to rescue the affairs of the East from a company capa-
ble of such a crime : for a crime he declared it was. Before
he left the article of the quick stock of Bengal, he must ob.,
serve, there was an omission entirely of 130,000/. due by the
company to the Military Fund established by Lord Clive,
and the nabob Asoph ul Dowla, and a considerable part of
which sum must be paid to the heirs of Lord Clive.


The quick stock at Madras came next: and here again he
objected to the article of sores, military and naval, unex-
pended, which was 264,1 1 ol. ; and on the same account that he
objected to the sum clue from Asoph ul Dowla, he objected to
the charge of 968,012/. stated to be due by the Nabob of
Arcot, to 158,2 5 01. due from the Rajah of Tanjore, and to
993,8041. clue from the renters of sundry districts.


He said, the nabob could not attempt to pay his debt
without attempting to take it from the rajah, nor the rajah
without taking it from Some neighbouring power, and all this
with the assistance of the company's troops, and at the ex-
pence of the company's treasure. As to the renters of sun-
dry districts of land, how could .money be recovered from
those who had none to give ? Had not these people been
driven from their possessions, ,


and made the victims of cruel
and unjust wars? And how could it be expected that they
should be able to answer this enormous demand ? At the end
of the account of these debts, there was a curious observa-
tion, contained in a nota bene, to the following effect:


The war in the Carnatic will delay the payment of some
of these debts, and must have rendered many others of them
precarious, so that their exact value cannot be ascertained."
After this beginning, said Mr. Pox, would not the House
imagine that .


the account was going to say that some par-,
ticular part • of the sum, -such as a 5th, an 8th, or a l oth or


1783.] MR. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS. 23 I


these sums might be recovered ; but, the account, instead of
saying any such thing, goes on, and says, " but the above
sums are undoubtedly due to the company." These debts,
put together, would amount to 2,822,31o/. and to this sum
he was resolved to object, as unfit to be inserted in an ac-
count of means to answer the company's pressing demands.
The ridicule, the absurdity, and the determination to im-
pose, contained in this annotation, drew from him a vein
of irony and attack that we scarcely remember to have heard
equalled even by Mr. Fox. He once more dwelt upon the
scandalous conduct of those who had dared to produce to
parliament an account so full of imposition and absurdity ;
particularly with regard to the stating these desperate and
ruinous debts, more, ruinous in recovering than abandoning,
as a fund, and the unparalleled impudence of this conclusion
of the N. B.- that the above sums were 44 undoubtedly due to
the company." No doubt they were due: and if the com-
pany were to go on for five years more, five times the sum
might, and probably would, from the experience of past times,
be as fairly due ; and from thence it would be in the power
of those who had the hardiness to impose upon the publiciby
such an account, to shew the company in a better situation
every year, as their debts encreased : that they would soon
have it in their power to prove the flourishing state of the
company, by stating the debts of the nabob at twice 900,000/.
and those of Asoph ul Dowla at double the present sum.
But he desired the House to recollect, that it was their bu-
iness to interfere to prevent that species of prosperity from


gaining farther than it had hitherto gone, and to stem those
torrents of blood which must flow, if the attempt was .made
to procure them ; an attempt which must end in wasting
more money (setting considerations of humanity- aside) than
the amount of them would repay. To estimate the property
of the company in this way was most fallacious. In propor-
tion as they oppressed — as they racked — as they were guilty
of weakness in the first instance, and of violence in the second,
their debts would encrease; and even when they were .more
deeply involved, they might by such accounts, shew them-
selves to be on paper more flourishing. But such debts were
not available property, and could not be estimated.


The debts due by the company in Madras, 31st August
1782, including arrears to the military, 821,16 41., he stated to
have increased since ; and that the right honourable gentleman
opposite (Mr: Pitt) knew it: it was a secret disclosed to the
treasury, of which he was chancellor of the exchequer, and
he doubted not, he woald not deny it. By these disallowances,


0 4




222 MR. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS. [Nov. 27.


he reduced the balance of quick stock at Madras 2,078,0781.
to little more than 500,0001.


Of the quick stock at Bencoolen, consisting of the dif-
ference between cash and effects, and the debts owing by
the company, amounting on the 1 9th of March, 1783, to a
balance in favour of the company of 189,0361. he allowed
only the odd 8 9,0001. the other 100,0001. being exhausted in
the expence of the establishment, and therefore on the footing
of warehouses, not convertible, unless they gave up trade,
consequently not applicable to present relief: The quick
stock at St. Helena, 27,6181. disallowed on the same prin-
ciple. The quick stock in China, 132,5961. he allowed, be-
cause consisting of goods, and there we had no territories nor
establishment to maintain. The quick stock at Bombay, I sth
September 1782, valuing the rupee at 2s. 6d. Cash and bills
24,6631. he allowed. Goods provided for Europe, 95,1451.
Of this he disallowed 32,0001. put on board two ships that
sailed after the date here taken, and which was included in the
prior statement of goods in warehouses, and he also took the
freight and demurrage, to be paid on their arrival in Eng-
land, 148,0031. for military and naval stores, disallowed for
reasons formerly given.


The debts due to the company of 8 9 1,0691. he doubted of
as much as of the unsecured part of Ragobah's debt, for the
reasons already stated. By these deductions, the debt due by
the company at Bombay amounted to 2,000,0001. instead of
1,790,0001. There was an additional arrear to be taken as
due to the army in India, beyond what the account stated of
140,0001. They also owed to the nizam 3 o lacks of rupees,
which was 300,0001. totally omitted. Besides these sums,
which amount in the whole to 9,400,0001. there was to be
added the sum due to the proprietors of 3,200,0001. which
made the sum in the whole more than i2,000,0001. which he
pledged himself to exhibit in objection to their account.
There were other inaccuracies in their statement, which made
considerable difference in its truth, but into which he had not
particularly entered. It was alledged that the sum of 400,0001.
lately paid by the company to government, was as a price for
the renewal of their charter. It was no such thing. They
paid it as a debt due to the country, and so it was considered.'


The right honourable gentleman then went into a train of
most admirable and eloquent deductions from his premises,
and into distinct answers to the several arguments which had
been. adduced against the principle, provision, and tendency
of the bill. The peace with the Mahrattas had been held out
by the friends and agents of that great man Mr. Hastings,
a man who, by disobeying the orders of his employers, had


1783.] MR. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS. 233


made himself so great, as to be now able to mix in every
question of state, and make every measure of government a
personal point in which he had a share—the peace with the
Mahrattas had been held out as so favourable to this country,
that every good was to be derived from it. What said the
last advices to that? Read the last gazette. In the very mo-
ment that an honourable gentleman, whose zeal and ardour
carried him generally too far, was loud in declaring that all
was peace in India, and congratulating the proprietors on the
prosperous situation of their affairs, came home the dispatches
contained in the last gazette. Let the House learn from
that gazette the pressing occasion for an immediate reform
of the government of India. Let them see the cause of the
disasters recorded in those direful dispatches —a quarrel
among the officers on the common theme of India, the division
of the spoil, the disposal of the plunder taken from the na-
tives ! They would learn from the gazette, that our army
had lost all subordination, as they had learnt from other pub-
lications, that our civil government in India had lost all
energy. And, in addition to that information, he would read
a letter from Mr. Anderson, stating that the pashwa and
madajee scindia, proposed that they should enter into art
alliance with the company to strip Tippoo Saib of his ter-


' ritories, and Make a partition of them between the three.
This proposition appeared to be acceptable to Mr. Hastings;
and it was therefore reasonable to suppose, or to fear, that a
new war was actually raging at this time in India.


Did the House know of the disputes in our presidencies,
es well as in the army? That Lord Macartney, that great
and exalted man, the only man who paid obedience to his
constituents, was at this instant perhaps removed, confined,
perhaps come to the fate of Lord Pigot? Would they not
remember, that, by the peace with Prance, we had engaged
not to make war with their allies in India ? And that if this
new engagement was entered into with the Mahrattas, it
would be to all purposes a new war, and consequently we
might involve ourselves again with France, and revive war
In every part of Europe? These were important considera-
tions.


It was said that this was an invasion of the chartered
rights. Undoubtedly it was: but would gentlemen say that
such infringements were not warrantable? Had they not been
frequently infringed before? when the votes of the loci. stock
proprietors were cut ofT— mid in various other instances.
Was this to be called an infringement of their charters, so
enormous and violent, when they had broken the conditions
of the charter and agreement? Did the House know, if this




234 MR. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS. ENOV. 27,


bill should be thrown out, which by the bye he did not bee
lieve it would be, that the treasury could in a fortnight after.
wards enter the premises of the East India company with an
extent, and take legal possession of all that they were worth
in the world ?


But necessity was said to be the plea of tyranny — it was
also the plea of freedom. The revolution, which established
the rights and liberties of these kingdoms, was undertaken
and accomplished —nay was justified at the time, on the plea
of necessity : a necessity that superseded all law, and was
the glorious means of giving liberty to England. On the
present occasion, had it not been agreed on all hands, that
some measure of regulation and rclbrm was necessary with
respect to India? Nay, had not a right honourable gentle-
man opposite to him, and his friends, been loud in calling
out for a system, complete and well digested ? Had they
not said, no palliatives, no half measures? Let the learned
gentleman opposite him (Mr. Dundas) say how any effec-
tual reform in the conduct of the India company's. affairs
could be made without touching their charter. Did the
present bill offer more violence to it than the bill proposed
last year? In what lay the difference? That bill aimed at
lodging an absolute and despotic power of governing in India.
This provided a controulable government; but it was a power-
ful government, and it was at home. To give power was
generally


considered as a dangerous delegation ; but it be-
came the more dangerous in proportion as it was lodged at
a distance. A virtuous and a wise man might lost his prin-
ciples and his understanding in India. Disease and luxury
might co-operate to enervate; the sight of wealth within reach
might win to rapacity, and the once pure mind, weakened by
climate and example, might be betrayed to corruption and
plunder. The temptation was not so great in England.
'The commissioners were to act at hand, and to be under the
immediate eye of parliament. Where, then, was the dan-
ger so loudly trumpeted forth to the world, and so industri-
ously made the subject of popular clamour ?


But besides the objection to the commissioners being named
by parliament, the great one was, the influence it was to give
to the crown. This he denied. No immediate influence was
to be given but the nomination of the seven commissioners;.
the patronage of the East Indies had been in the hands of
the crown before. What great officer had been appointe4,
but by the advice and influence of ministers? And ought they;,
to have been otherwise? The only difference is, that before:
the court of directors was a screen; and now, they . wilt them-
selves be responsible. He did not wish the edmmissioners


178.3.1 MR. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS. 235
to be ont of parliament. He wished them to be like himself
and his colleagues, constantly under the eye and attack of the
Ilouee. -Why order the new officers to give their reasons
for what they did ? This regulation was questioned as being
idle. It was not so : it was the character of despotic go-
vernments to be dark; of popular governments to have pub-
licity; and lie averred that it was their beauty and basis.
Our judicial tribunals were bound to give their reasons. He
objected to the plan of Mr. Dundas, because he could not
agree to give to a man, at the distance of half the globe,
uncontrouled power. Even here it was dangerous; but not
so much so, because it would be watched. The valuable
jealousies •of the country would be awake, and parliament
would be ready to crush its irregular acts. Some measure
was admitted on all hands to be necessary; if the present was
disapproved, those who disapproved of it were bound to pro.-
pose a better.


Perluips it would be argued, that the distress of the com-
pany was solely owing to the burdens and pressure of an
expensive war, and that what had arisen from a specific mis-
fortune, ought not to be attributed to general misrule and
mismanagement. In proof that this was not true, he would
read a letter from a person in a high and responsible situa-
tion in India, in 1772. Mr. Fox then read an extract, which,
in the language of conviction, attributed all the disasters in
India, of that day, to a want of vigour in the principle of
the system of its government, adopted and pursued by the
directors at home. The writer of the letter, Mr. Fox said,
was not a favourite authority with him in all cases; but his
position carried wisdom in it, and his argument was founded
on sound policy.. The other side of the House, at least, he
hoped, would agree in this, when he informed them that the
writer of the letter he had just read, was no other than Mr.
Hastings himself.


That the bill ought to pass, if it passed at all, with the
utmost dispatch, a variety of reasons concurred to justify.
The seeds of war were 'ilready sown in India; and a note
left by Sir Eyre Coote, a man whose memory deserved every
possible praise on account of his gallant actions, afforded
alarming proof of it. The deceased leader of the troops in
India had written to the governor of Madras, that the ex-
pellee and the burdens incurred by the...,'company in con-
sequence of the late war, could only be recovered by a fresh
war on Tippoo Seib. Let the House pause upon this; —
let them reflect on the last gazette, the dispatches of which
reached the India house, and filled the general court with
disappointment and dismay, in the very moment that an




236


en. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS. L Nov. 27,,
V


honourable gentleman, whose zealous ardour carried him
generally too far, was loud in declaring that all was peace in
India, and congratulating the proprietors on the prosperous
situation of their affairs. Let the House also learn from that
gazette, the pressing occasion for an immediate reform of the
government of India. Let them see the cause of the dis-
asters recorded in those direful dispatches — a quarrel among
the officers on the common theme of quarrels in India, the
division of the spoil, the disposal of the plunder taken from
the natives ! There were also additional causes to expect a
war there, and to dread its communicating to the other quar-
ters of the globe, if proper means to prevent it were not in-
stantly resorted to.


Mr. Fox dwelt upon this for some time, and shewed that
we might suddenly find ourselves involved in a war with
France, if due care was not taken to avert the mischief. He
also painted, in glowing colours, the alarming state of the
civil government in India, in consequence of the dissentions
between the different presidencies; he declared he felt for
Lord Macartney, for whom he had ever entertained the sin-
cerest respect. That noble lord had proved himself the most
obedient to direction from home, the purest in principle, and
the most zealous in conduct, for the national honour, of any
governor ever sent to India; but who could say that Lord
Macartney had not been suspended, nay, who could say that
he was not at this instant a prisoner, or that he had not
shared the fate of Lord Pigot ? He said farther, that he con-
sidered suffering the company to borrow more money, as in
fact lending them the security of government for what they
borrowed, and that before he proceeded that length, he held
himself bound to take every possible means to make the safety
of the public, and the prosperity of the company, go hand in
hand together. He knew that in doing so, he put his own
situation, as a minister, to the hazard; but where upon a great
national ground he could establish a measure at once salu-
tary and useful, likely to rescue the natives of India from
oppression, and save the country from. disgrace, he little cared
how great the personal risks were that he was to encounter.
He took notice of the India regulating bill, which however
deficient in point of policy, it might be fiyuntl, would not,
he believed, be thought to be wanting in regard to numerous
clauses, or spew that ministers had not very fully applied
themselves to the present situation of India. That bill, he
said, in almost every one, of its clauses, restrained and les-
sened the exercise of the power of those who were to act
under the authority of the bill then before the House. The
two bills ought therefore to be considered as it were together,


17831 MR. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS. 237


the regulations of the one tending to correct and temperate
the other.


He now came to a conclusion, and said, that if he should
fall in this, he should fall in a ()Teat and glorious cause,
struggling not only for the company, but for the people of Great
Britain and India; for many, many millions ofsouls. The sepa-
ration of the sovereignty from the commerce, was a point
which he thought essential, and it was partly provided for
in the bill; but in that and many other provisions, he would
be happy to be assisted by the wisdom of the House in a
committee, to which, therefore, he hoped they would go with
him.


The motion for the committal of the bill was opposed by Mr.
William Pitt, who moved, " that the debate be adjourned till to-
morrow morning ;" upon which the House divided.


Tellers. Tellers.
Mr. Fitzpatrick} Mr. E. J. Elliot




I 20. —NoEs - • 22eSir Geo. Yongel Mr. Sheridan ' ./ 'Yvan
The original motion was then carried.


December I.


The order of the day being read for the House to resolve itself
into a committee of the whole House, upon the bill " for vesting
the affairs of the East India company in the hands of certain com-
missioners," Mr. Powys opposed the Speaker's leaving the chair,
and was supported in his opposition to the bill by Mr. Duncombe,
Mr. Martin, Mr. William Pitt, Mr. Dundas, Mr. Ord, Mr. Beau-
foy, Mr. Thomas Pitt, and Mr. Arden. The bill was defended by
Mr. Burke, who upon this occasion made his celebrated speech on
the extent and bounds of chartered right, and by Lord John Caven-
dish, Mr. Fox, Sir Grey Cooper, Mr. Gregory, and the Solicitor
General.


Mr. Secretary Fox delivered himself to the following effect :
Sir, the necessity of my saying something upon the present.


occasion, is so obvious to the House, that no apology will, I
hope, be expected from me for troubling them even at so
late an hour (two o'clock in the morning). I shall not enter
much into a detail, or minute defence, of the particulars of the
bill before you, because few particular objections have been
made; the opposition to it consisting only in general reason-
ings, of little application some, and sonic totally distinct from
the point in question.


This bill has been combated through its past stages upon
various principles; but to this moment the House has not
heard it canvassed upon its own intrinsic merits. The debate
tins night has turned chiefly upon two points—violation of




238 MR. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS. [Dec. I.
charter, and increase of influence ; and upon both these points
I shall say a few words.


The honourable gentleman, who opened the debate, (Mr.
Powys,) first demands my attention, not indeed for the wisdom
of the observations which fell from him this night, (acute and
judicious as he is upon most occasions,) but from the na-
tural weight of all such characters in this country, the aggre-
gate of whom should, in my opinion, always decide upon pub.
lie measures : but his ingenuity was never, in my opinion, ex-
erted more ineffectually, upon more mistaken principles, and
more inconsistent with the common tenor of his conduct, than
in this debate.


The honourable gentleman charges me with abandoning
that cause, which, he says, in terms of flattery, Thad once so suc-
cessfully asserted. I tell him, in reply, that , if he were to search
the history of my life, he would find that the period of it, in
which I struggled most for the real, substantial cause of liberty,
is this very moment that I am addressing :you. Freedom, ac-
cording to my conception of it, consists in the safe and sacred
possession of a man's property, governed by laws defined and
certain; with many personal privileges, natural, civil, and re-
ligious, which he cannot surrender without ruin to himself;
and of which to be deprived by any other power, is despotism.
This bill, instead of subverting, is destined to give stability to
these principles ; instead of narrowing the basis of freedom, it
tends to enlarge it; instead of suppressing, its object is to in-
fuse and circulate the spirit of liberty.


What is the most odious species of tyranny ? Precisely
that which this bill is meant to annihilate. That a handful of
men, free themselves, should execute the most base and abo-
minable despotism over millions of their fellow creatures; that
innocence should be the victim of oppression; that industry
should toil for rapine; that the harmless labourer should sweat,
not for his own benefit, but for the luxury and rapacity of
tyrannic depredation ; in a word, that thirty million of men
(rifted by Providence with the ordinary endowments of hu-
inanity, should groan under a system of despotism, unmatched
in all the histories of the world.


What is the end of all government? Certainly the happi-
ness of the governed. Others may hold other opinions ; but
this is mine, and I proclaim it. What are we to think of a
government, whose good fortune is supposed to spring from
the calamities of its subjects, whose aggrandisement grows out
of the miseries of mankind ? This is the kind of government
exercised under the East India company upon the natives of
Indostan ; and the subversion of that infamous government is
the main object of the bill in question, But in-the 'progress of


II


1793.] ant. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS. 239
accomplishing this end, it is objected that the charter of the
company should not be violated ; and upon this point, Sir, I
shall deliver my opinion without disguise. A charter is a
trust to one or more persons for some given benefit. If this
trust be abused, if the benefit be not obtained, and its failure
arises from palpable guilt, or (what in this case is full as bad)
from palpable ignorance or mismanagement, will any man
gravely say, that trust should not be resumed, and delivered-
to other hands, more especially in the case of the East India
company, whose manner of executing this trust, whose laxity
and langour produced, and tend to produce consequences dia-
metrically opposite to the ends of confiding that trust, and of
the institution for which it was granted? —I beg of gentlemen
to be aware of the lengths to which their arguments upon the
intangibility of this charter may be carried. Every syllable
virtually impeaches Jig establishment by which we sit in this
House, in the enjoyment of this freedom, and of every other
blessing of our government. These kind of arguments are
batteries against the main pillar of the British constitution.
Sonic men are consistent with their own private opinions, and
discover the inheritance of family maxims, when they question
the principles of the revolution ; but I have no scruple in sub-
scribing to the articles of that creed which produced it. So-
vereigns are sacred, and reverence is due to every king : yet,
with all my attachments to the person of a first magistrate,
had I lived in th.e reign of James the Second, I should most
certainly have contributed my efforts, and borne part in those
illustrious struggles which vindicated an empire from heredi-
tary servitude, and recorded this valuable doctrine, " that trust
abused is revocable."


No man, Sir, will tell that a trust to a company of mer-
chants, stands upon the solemn and sanctified ground by which
a trust is committed to a monarch; and I am at a loss to recon-
cile the conduct of men who approve that resumption of vio-
lated trust, which rescued and re-established our unparalleled
and admirable constitution with a thousand valuable improve-
ments and advantages at the Revolution, and who, at this mo-
ment, rise up the champions of the East India company's
Charter, although the incapacity and. incompetence of that
company to a clue and adequate discharge of the trust deposit-
ed in them by that charter, are themes of ridicule and contempt
to all the world ; and although, in consequence of their mis-
management, connivance, and imbecility, combined with the
Wickedness of their servants, the very name of an Englishman
is detested, even to a proverb, through all Asia, and the
national character is become degraded and dishonoured. To
rescue that name from odium, and redeem this character from




240 MR. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS. [Dec. /,
disgrace, are some of the objects of the present bill; and gen-
tlemen should, indeed, gravely weigh their opposition to a
measure which, with a thousand other points not less valuable,
aims at the attainment of these objects.


Those who condemn the present bill as a violation of the
chartered rights of the East India company, condemn, on the
same ground, I say again, the Revolution, as a violation of the
chartered rights of King James II. He, with as much reason,
might have claimed the property of dominion ; but what was
the language of the people? " No, you have no property in
dominion ; dominion was vested in you, as it is in every chief
magistrate, for the benefit of the community to be governed;
it was a sacred trust delegated by compact; you have abused
that trust ; you have exercised dominion for the purposes of
vexation and tyranny—not of comfort, protection, and good
order; and we therefore resume the power which was origin-
ally ours : we recur to the first principles of all government, the
will of the many; and it is our will that you shall no longer
abuse your dominion." The case is the same with the East
India company's government over a territory, as it has been
said by my honourable friend (Mr. Burke) of 280,000 square
miles in extent, nearly equal to all christian Europe, and con-
taining thirty million of the human race. It matters not
whether dominion arises from conquest, or from compact.
Conquest gives no right to the conqueror to be a tyrant; and
it is no violation of right to abolish the authority which is
misused.


Having said so much upon the general matter of the bill, I
must beg leave to make a few observations upon the remarks
of particular gentlemen ; and first of the learned gentleman
over against me (Mr. Dundas). The learned gentleman has
made a long, and, as he always does, an able speech; yet,
translated into plain English, and disrobed of the dextrous
ambiguity in which it has been iuveioped, what does it amount
to? To an establishment of the principles upon which this bill .
is founded, and an indirect confession of its necessity. He
allows the frangibility of charters, when absolute occasion
requires it, and admits that the charter of the company should
not prevent the adoption of a proper plan for the future govern-
ment of India, if a proper plan can be achieved upon no other
terms. The first of these admissions seems agreeable to the
civil maxims of the learned gentleman's life, so far as a maxim
can be traced in a political character, so various and flexible:
and to deny the second of these concessions was impossible,
even for the learned gentleman, with a staring reason upon
your table, I mean the learned gentleman's bill of last year, to
confront him if he attempted it. The learned gentleman-'


1783.] MR. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS. 241
bill, and the bill before you, arc grounded upon the same bot-
tom, of abuse of trust, mal-administration, debility, and inca-
pacity in the company and their servants : but the difference in
the remedy is this : the learned gentleman's bill opens a door to
an influence a hundred times more dangerous than any that
call be imputed to this bill, and deposits in one man all arbi-
trary power over millions, not in England, where the evil of
this corrupt ministry could not be felt, but in the East Indies,
the scene of every mischief, fraud, and violence. The learned
gentleman's bill afforded the most extensive latitude for mal-
yersation ; the bill before you guards against it with all imagina-
ble precaution. Every line in both the bills which I have had
the honour to introduce, presumes the possibility of bad ad-
ministration, for every word breathes suspicion. This bill
supposes that men are but men ; it confides in no integrity, it
trusts no character; -it inculcates the wisdom of a jealousy of
power, and annexes responsibility not only to every action,
but even to the inaction of those who are to dispense it. The
necessity of these provisions must be evident, when it is known
that the different misfortunes of the company resulted not,
more from what the servants did, than from what the masters
did not.


To the probable effects of the learned gentleman's bill, and
this, I beg to call the attention of the House. Allowing, for
argument's sake, to the governor-general of India, under the-
first-named bill, the most unlimited and superior abilities, with
soundness of heart and integrity the most unquestionable;
what good consequences could be reasonably expected from
his extraordinary, extravagant, and unconstitutional power,
under the tenure by which he held it ? Were his projects the
most enlarged, his systems the most wise and excellent which
human skill could adopt; what fair hope could be entertained .
of their eventual success, when, perhaps, before lie could enter
upon the execution of any measure, he may be recalled in conse-
quence of one of those changes in the administration of this
Country, which have been so frequent for a few years, and which
some good men wish to see every year? Exactly the same
reasons which banish all rational hope of benefit from an
Indian administration under the bill of the learned gentleman,
justify the duration of the proposed commission. If the dis-
Itis, ers of the plan of governing India (a place from which
the answer of a letter cannot be expected in less than twelve
months) have not greater stability in their situations than a
British ministry— adieu to all hopes of rendering our east-
ern territories of any real advantage to this country, adieu
to ever y expectation of purging or purifying the Indian sys-


of reform, of improvement, of reviving confidence, of
VOL.




242 Mu .FOX'S EAST 'INDIA BILLS. • [Dec.


regulating the trade upon its proper principles, of restorimp
tranquillity, of re-establishing the natives in comfort, and 07
securing the perpetuity of these blessing., by the cordial re-
concilement of the Indians with their farmer tyrants upon
fixed terms of amity, friendship, and fellowship ! I will
leave the House and the kingdom to judge which is best cal-
culated to accomplish those salutary ends the bill of the
learned gentleman, which leaves all to the discretion of one
man, or the bill. belbre you which depends upon the duty of
several men, who are in a state of daily account to this House,
of hourly account to the ministers of the crown, of occasionid
account to the -proprietors of East India stock, and who are
allowed sufficient time to practise their plans, unaffected by
every political fluctuation.


But the learned gentleman wishes the appointment of an
Indian secretary of state in preference to these -conunis-
sinners : in all the learned gentleman's ideas on the govern-
'meta of India, the notion of a new secretary of state for the
Indian department springs up, and seems to be cherished with
-the fondness of consanguinity*; but that scheme strikes me as
liable to a thousand times more objections than the plan in
agitation. hay, the learned gentleman had rather, it seems,
the affairs of India were blended with the business of the of-
fice which I have the honour to hold. His good disposition
towards me upon all occasions cannot 'be doubted, and his
sincerity in this opinion is unquestionable ! I beg the House
to attend to the reason which the learned gentleman gives for
this preference, and to see the plights to which men, even of
his understanding, are reduced, who must oppose. He laughs
at the responsibility of the commissioners to this House, who,,
in his judgment, will find means ofsoodiing, and softening, and,
meliorating the members into an oblivion of their mal-admini s


-- tration. What opinion has the learned gentleman of a .secretary
of state? Does he think him so inert, so inactive, so incapable
a creature, that with all this vaunted patronage of the seven
in his own hands, the same means of soothing, and softening,
and meliorating are thrown away upon him? The learned
gentleman has been for some years conversant with ministers;
but his experience has taught him, it seems, to consider secre-
taries not only untainted and immaculate, but innocent, harm-


_


'x Mr. Dundas's bill was to have appointed a secretary of state for the
'Indian department, and to have made the governor-general despotic in
India. If the Earl of Shelburne had continued in power, it was under'
stood that Mr. Dundas was to be the Indian secretary. Mr. Fox here'
:AO to, this aaux:dote.


s,


I783.] MR. FOX'S EAST INDIA DILLS. 243


Jess, and incapable. In his time, secretaries were all purity —
with every power of corruption in their hands; but so inflexi-
bly attached to rigid rectitude, that no temptation could se-
duce them to use that power for the purpose of corrupting, or,
to use his own words, for soothing, or softening, or meli-
oratim •. The learned gentleman has formed his opinion of
the simplicity and inaction of secretaries, from that golden
age of political probity, when his own friends were in power,
and when himself was every thing but a minister. This er-
roneous humanity of opinion arises in the learned gentleman's
unsuspecting, unsullied nature, as well as in a commerce with
only the best and purest ministers of this country, which has
given him so favourable an impression of a secretary of state,
that he thinks this patronage, so dangerous in the hands of
seven commissioners, perfectly safe in his hands ! I leave to
the learned gentleman that pleasure which his mind must feel
under the conviction with which he certainly gives this opi-
nion ; but I submit to every man who heats. measais


• at would
be the probable comments of the other side of the House, had


proposed either the erection of an Indian secretary, or the
annexation of the Indian business to the office which I hold.


In the assemblage of the learned gentleman's objections, there
is ,one still more curious than those I have mentioned. He
dislikes this bill because it establishes an imperiunz in imperio.
In the course of opposition to this measure, we have been fa-
miliarized to hear certain sentiments and particular words
in this House—but directed, in reality, to other places.
Taking it therefore for granted, that the learned gentleman
has not so despicable an idea of the good sense of the mem-.
'hers, as to expect any more attention within these walls to
such a dogma, than has been shewn to the favourite phrase of
his honourable friend near him, (Mr. William Pitt,) who calls
a bill which backs this sinking company with the credit of the
state, a confiscation of their property, I would wish to ask the
learned gentleman, if he really holds the understanding, even
of the multitude, in such contempt, as to imagine this species
ofargument can have the very slightest effect? The multitude
know the fallacy- of it as well as the learned gentleman him-
helf. They know that a dissolution of the East India com-
p-my has been wished for scores of years, by many good peo-
Oein this country, for the very reason that it was an imperium24 imperio. Yet the learned gentleman, with infinite gravity
of;faee, tells you lie dislikes this bill, because it establishes this
novel and : odious principle. Even a glance of this bill, com-
pared with the present constitution of the company, manifests
the, futility of this objection, and proves that the company is


R




244
MR. PDX'S EAST INDIA BILLS. [Dec. 1, 17831 MR. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS. 245


in its present form, a thousand times more an imperiwn in
Teri() than the proposed commissioners. The worst species of
government is that which can run counter to all the ends of its
institution with impunity. Such exactly was the East India
company. No man can say, that the directors and proprie-
tors have not, in a thousand instances, merited severe inflic-
tion; yet who did ever think of a legal punishment for either
body ? Now, the great feature of this bill is to render the
commissioners amenable, and to punish them upon delin-
quency.


The learned gentleman prides himself that his bill did not
meddle with the commerce of the company ; and another
gentleman, after acknowledging the folly of leaving the go-b
vermnent in the hands of the company, proposes to separate
the commerce entirely from the dominion, and leave the for-
mer safe and untouched to the company itself. I beg leave to
appeal to every gentleman conversant in the company's af-
fairs, whether this measure is, in the nature of things, prac-
ticable at this moment. That the separation of the commerce
from the government of the East may be ultimately brought
about I doubt not; but when gentlemen reflect upon the im-
meliate state of the company's affairs, when they reflect that
their government was carried on for the sake of their commerce,
that both have been blended together for such a series of
years ; when they review the peculiarly perplexed, and in-
volved state of the eastern territories, their dissimilitude to
every system in this part of the globe, and consider the deep
and laborious deliberation with which every step for the esta-
blishment of a salutary plan of government, in the room of
the present odious one, must be taken—the utter impossibility
of instantly detaching the governing power from interference
with the commercial body will be clear and indubitable.


A gentleman has asked, why not choose the commissioners
out of the body of directors ; and why not leave the choice of
the assistant directors in the court of proprietors? That is to
say, why not do that which would infallibly undo all you are
aiming at ? I mean no general disparagement when I say
that the body of the directors have given memorable proofs
that they are not the sort of people to whom any man can
look for the success or salvation of India. Amongst them there
are, without doubt, some individuals respectable, both for
their knowledge arid integrity ; but I put it to the candour of
gentlemen, whether they-are the sort of men whose wisdom,
energy, and diligence, would give any promise of emancipating
the East India concerns from their present disasters and dis:'
graces. Indeed, both questions may be answered in 00
words. Why not choose the directors, who have ruined the


II


company? Why not leave the power of election in the pro-
prietors, who have thwarted every good attempted by the di-
rectors ?


The last point adverted to by the learned gentleman relates
to influence; and upon his remarks, combined with what fell
from some others upon the same subject, I beg leave to make
a few observations. No small portion of my life has been em-
ployed in endeavours to diminish the inordinate influence of
the crown. In common with others, I succeeded, and I glory
in it. To support that kind of influence which I formerly
subverted, is a deed of which I shall never deserve to be ac-
cased. The affirmation with which I first introduced this
plan, I now repeat ; re-assert that this bill as little aug-
ments the influence of the crown, as any measure which can
be devised for the government of India, that presents the
slightest promise of solid success, and that it tends to increase
it in a far less degree than the bill proposed by the learned
gentleman. The very gertimi of influence consists in hope or
fear ; fear of losing what we have, or hope of gaining more.
Make these commissioners removable at will, and you set all
the little passions of human nature afloat. If benefit can be
derived from the bill, you had better burn it than make the
duration short of the time necessary to accomplish the plans
it is destined for. That consideration pointed out the expe-
diency of a fixed period; and in that respect it accords with
the principle of the learned gentleman's bill : with this supe-
rior advantage, that instead of leaving the commissioners
liable to all the influence which springs from the appointment
of a governor-general, removable at pleasure, this bill in-
vests them with the power for the time specified, upon the
Some tenure that British judges hold their station, removable
upon delinquency, punishable upon guilt, but fearless of power
if they discharge their trust, liable to no seducement, and
with full time and authority to execute their functions for the
common good of the country, and for their own glory. I
beg of the House to attend to this difference, and then jud,re
upon the point of increasing the influence of the crown, ctin-
trasted with the learned gentleman's bill.


The state of the accusations against me upon this subject _of
influence, is truly curious. The learned gentleman, (Mr.
Dundas,) in strains of emphasis, declares, that this biil dimi-
nishes the influence of the crown beyond all former attempts,
and calls upon those who formerly voted with him in support
of that influence, against our efforts to reduce it, and who now
sit near me, to join him now in opposing my attempts to di-
minish that darling influence. He tells them I " out-herod
Herod ;" that I am out-doing all my former out-doings ; 'and


R 3




246


MR. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS. [Dec. t,


proclaims me as the merciless and insatiate enemy of the in-
fluence of the crown.


Down sits the learned gentleman, and up starts an honour_
able gentleman, with a charge against Me, upon the same
subject, of a nature the direct reverse. I have fought under
your banner, cries the honourable gentleman, (Mr. Martin,)
against that fell giant, the influence of the crown; I have
bled in that battle which you commanded, and have a claim
upon the rights of soldiership. You have conquered through
us ; and now that victory is in your anus, yell turn traitor
to our cause, and carry over your powers to the enemy.
The fiercest of your former combatants in the cause of in-
fluence, falls far short of you at this moment; your attempts
at re-erecting this monster, exceed all the exertions of your
former foes. This night you will make the influence of the
crown a colossus, that shall bestride the land, and crush every
impediment. I impeach you for treachery to your ancient
principles— come, come, and divide with us j


This honourable gentleman, after a thrust or two at the
coalition, sits down ; and whilst the House is perplexing
itself to reconcile these wide differences, the right honourable
gentleman over the way, (Mr. William Pitt,) confounds all past
contradictions, by combining, in his own person, these ex-
travagant extremes. He acknowledges that he has digested
a paradox; and a paradox well lie might call it, for never
did a grosser one puzzle the intellects of a public assembly.
By a miraculous kind of discernment he has found out, that
the bill both increases and diminishes the influence of the
crown.


The bill diminishes the influence of the crown, says one:
you are wrong, says a second, it increases it : you are both
right, says a third, for it both increases and diminishes the
influence of the crown ! Now, as most members have one or
other of these opinions upon the subject, the right honoura-
ble gentleman can safely join with all parties upon this point;
but few, I trust, will be found to join him.


Thus, Sir, is this bill combatted, and thus am I accused.
The nature and substance of these objections I construe as
the strongest comment upon the excellence of the bill. If a
more rational opposition could be made to it, no doubt i1
would. The truth is, it increases the influence of the crown,
and the influence of party as little as possible ; and if the re-
form of India, or any other matter, is to be postponed until 4
scheme be devised, against which ingenuity, or ignorance, or
caprice, shall not raise objections, the affhirs of human life
must stand still.


I beg the House will attend a little to the manner in which


1783.] MR. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS. 247
the progress of this bill has been retarded, especially by the
right honourable gentleman (Mr. W. Pitt). First, the mem-
bers were not all in town, and time was desired upon that
account. Next, the finances of the East India company were
Iris-stated by me, and time was desired to prove that. The
time came, the proofs exhibited, counsel heard, and yet the
issue was, that my former statement, instead of being con-
t roverted, became more established by the very proofs which
were brought to overturn it. The right honourable gen-
tleman has misrepresented me to-night again : he has an
evident pleasure in it, which indeed I cannot prevent; but
I can prevent this House and the country from believing
him. He prefers the authority of his own conception (eager
enough in all conscience to misunderstand me) of what
said, to my own repeated declarations of my own meaning.
He supposes a mistake because he wishes it. I never did say
the company were absolute bankrupts to the amount of the
debt; but I said there was immediate necessity of paying
that given sum, without any immediate means of providing
for it. The account of the company's circumstances, pre-
seated last week, furnished matter of triumph to the right
honourable gentleman for the full space of three hours, that
is to say, whilst counsel were at the bar. I made no objec-
tion to the account but this trifling one — that twelve millions
were stated which ought not to appear at all there, and which
were placed there only for delusion and fallacy ! I never ob-
jected to the arithmetic of the account. The sums, I doubt
not, were accurately cast up even to a figure : yet the House
will recollect, that the right honourable gentleman, about this
very hour of that debate, endeavoured to protract the busi-
ness to the next day, upon assuring the House that the com-
pany would then support their statement. I refused to accede,
because I knew the matter to be mere shifting and manmu-
vring for a vote, and that the company could not support
their statement. Was I right? The House sees whether I
was: the House sees the finance-post is now totally aban-
doned, and for the best reason in the world, because it is no
longer tenable. But the right honourable gentleman is in-
deed a man of resources; he now gives me a challenge, and
I beg the. House to remark, that I accept his challenge, and
that I prophecy he will no more meet me upon this than upon
the former points.


But there is no limit to a youthful and vigorous fancy.
The right honourable gentleman just now, in very serious
terms, and with all his habitual gravity, engages, if the
4ouse will join in opposing us to-night, that he will digest
ancl -methodise a plan, the outline of which he has already


R 4




24 8 MR. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS. [Dee. I,


conceived. He has nothing now to offer ; but justly con-
fiding in the fertility of his own imagination, and the future
exercise of his faculties, he promises that he will bring a
plan, provided the majority of this House will join him to-
night. Now, if ever an idea was thrown out to pick up a
stray vote or two in the heel of a debate, by a device, the
idea given a while ago by the right honourable gentleman is


isprecely such i; but i f I can augur rightly from the com-
plexion of the House, his present will have exactly the same
success with all his past stratagems to oppose this bill.


The learned gentleman (Mr. Dundas) with singular pla-
cidness, .without smile or sneer, has said, " as this measure
was probably decided upon some time since, the East India
company, who could not expect such a blow, ought to have
been informed of the intended project. The company was
evidently unaware of this attack, and, in fairness, should
have been apprised of it." Does the learned gentleman
imagine men are in their sober senses, who, listen to such
cavilling and quibbling opposition? The company unaware
of this- attack ! The learned gentleman's own labours, inde-
pendent of any other intimation, had been an ample warning
to the company 'to be prepared. Every-man in the kingdom,
who reads a newspaper, expected something; and the only
wonder with the nation was, how it could be so long delayed.
The reports of the committees alarmed the public so much, for
the honour of the country, and for the salvation of the com-
pany, that all eyes were upon East India affairs. This sort
of observation had, indeed, much better come from any other
man in this House, than from that identical gentleman.


But if these were not sufficient to rouse the attention and
diligence of the company, his majesty's speech at the com-
mencement: and conclusion of the late session of parliament,
gave them note of preparation in the most plain and decisive
terms. In his opening speech, his majesty thus speaks to
parliament upon the subject of India: —" The regulation of
a vast territory in Asia, opens a large field for your wisdom,
prudence, and foresight : I trust that you will be able to form
some fundamental laws which may make their connection with
Great Britain a blessing to India; and that you will take
therein proper measures to give all foreign nations, in mat-
ters of foreign commerce, an entire and perfect confidence
in the probity, punctuality, and good order of our govern-
ment. You may be assured that whatever depends upon me,
shall be executed with a steadiness, which can alone preserve
that part of my dominions, or the commerce which arises
from it."


The learned gentleman, who knows more of the disposi-


1783.] MR. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS. 249
dons of the cabinet at that time than I do, can better tell
whether any measure of this nature was then intended. The
words are very wide, and seem to portend at least something
very important; but whether any thing similar to this mea-
sure was meant, as this passage seems to imply, or not, is
indifferent to the point in question. This is clear from it,
that it gives a very ceremonious warning to the East India
company; enough surely to expose the weakness and futi-
lity of the learned gentleman's remark. The changes and
circumstances of the cabinet, in the course of the last session,
can be the only excuse for the delay of some decisive measure
with regard to India; and if in addition to all these, any
thing more is requisite to confirm the notoriety of parliament
being to enter upon the business, the following paragraph of
the king's closing • speech, last July, completes the mass of
evidence against the learned gentleman. His majesty, after
intimating a belief that he shall be obliged to call his parlia-
ment together earlier than usual, thus speaks: — " The con-
sideration of the affairs of the East Indies will require to 'be
resumed as early as possible, and to be pursued with a serious
and unremitting attention." Superadd to all this, the part
of the king's opening speech this year upon India; and if the
whole do not constitute sufficient testimony that the company
had full notice, nothing can.


Yet, notwithstanding all this, the learned gentleman accuses
us of surprising the company ; and his right honourable friend,
in hopes his proposal dr another bill may have weight in the
division, repeats the hacknied charge of precipitation, and
forces the argument for delay in a taunt, " that we wish to
get rid of our torments, by sending this bill to the other
House." The right honourable gentleman's talents are
splendid and various; but I assure him, that all his efforts,
for the last eight clays, have not given me a single torment.
Were I to chuse a species of opposition to insure a minis-
terial tranquillity, it would be the kind of opposition which this
bill has received, in which every thing brought to confute,
has tended to confirm, and in which the arguments adduced
to expose the weakness, have furnished materials to establish
the wisdom of the measure: so impossible is it, without some-
thing of a tolerable cause, even for the right honourable gen-
tleman's abilities to have effect, though his genius may make
a flourishing and superior figure in the attempt !


Before I proceed to the other parts of the debate, I wish
he say one word upon a remark of the learned gentleman:
be says, that the clause relative to the zemindars was sub
Rested by his observations. God forbid I should detract
fl'orn the merit, or diminish the desert of any man I Un-




250 MR. FOX'S LAST INDIA BILLS.
[Dee, I.


doubtedly that excellent part of the regulation-bill originated
with the learned gentleman ; and if lie had been in this
House when I introduced the subject of India, he would
have known that I did him full and complete justice upon
that point.


My noble friend (Lord John Cavendish) has said, that this
bill does not arise from the poverty of the company, but that
liberal policy and national honour demanded it. Upon the
last day this bill was debated, I confined myself chiefly to
the demonstration of the fallacy and imposture of that notable
schedule presented by the East India company ; and having
proved its falsehood, I can now with the greater safety de-
clare, that if every


shilling of that fictitious property was real
and forthcoming, a bill of this nature would not therefore
be the Jess necessary. I thought we were fully understood
upon this point, from the opening speech in this business,
which did not so degrade the rne4,oure as to say it originated
in the poverty of the company, Which, as, my noble friend
rightly remarks, was the smallest reason for its adoption,
and which opinion is not, as the right houourable gentle-
man insinuates, 4 6 S711ifting," but recognising andexecording
the true grounds of the bill. If any misunderstanding, then,.
has hitherto taken place upon this head, it will, I trust, cease
henceforth, and so odious a libel upon this country will not
pass current, as that sordid motives only induced. the govern-
ment of England to that which we were bound to do, as
politicians, as christians, and as men, by every consideration
Which makes a nation respectable, great, and glorious.


Having vindicated the bill from this aspersion, and found-
ed it upon that basis which every honest and sensible man
in England must approve, I may be allowed to say that some
regard may be had even to the mean and mercenary upon
this subject—a portion of whom we have here, in common
with all other countries. Will such men endure with temper
a constant drain upon this kingdom, for the sake of this mo-
nopolizing corporation ? 'Will those, for instance, who cla-
mour against a two-penny tae, afford, with good humour,
million after million to the East India company ? The sink-
ing fund is at this moment a million the worse for the defi-
ciencies of the company, and as the noble lord (John Caven-
dish) says, an extent must in three weeks arrest their pro-
row, if parliament does not interpose or enable' them to
discharge a part of their debt to the crown. Let those, there-
fore, who think the commerce ought to be instantly separated
from the dominion, (were that at this time possible, and who
think it ought to be left •,vholly in the present hands, reflect,
that the formation of a vigorous system of government for In-


I783.] MR. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS. 251


dig is not more incumbent upon us, than the establishment of
the eastern trade upon such principles of solidity and fitness,
as shall give some just hopes that the public may be speedily
relieved from the monstrous pressure of constantly supporting
the indigence of the company.


I have spoken of myself very often in the coarse of what
have said this night, and must speak still more •frequently in the
course of what I have to say : the House twill see this awkward
task is rendered indispensable, infinitely more having been
said concerning me, during the debater titan concerning the
question, which is the proper subject of agitation. The right
honourable gentleman (Mr. W. Pitt) says, that nothing ever
happened to give hint an ill impression of my character, or
to prevent a mutual confidence. He says rightly; there have
been interchanges of civility, and amicable habits between
us, in which I trust I have given him no cause to complain.
But after pronouncing a brilliant eulogy upon me and my
capacity to serve the country, the right honourable gentle-
man considers me at the same time the most dangerous man
in the kingdom.


Mr. Pitt said across the House, " dangerous only from this
measure :" to which Mr. Fox instantly made this reply : I-
call upon the House to attend to the right honourable gen-
tleman; he thinks me dangerous only from this measure, and
confesses, that hitherto he hasseen nothing in-my conduct to
obliterate his good opinion. Compare this with his opposition
during the last and the present session. Let every man re-
flect, that up to this moment the right honourable gentleman.
deemed me worthy of confidence, and competent to my situate
tion in the state. I thank him for the support lie has afforded
to the minister he thus esteemed, and shall not press the
advantage he gives me, farther than leaving to himself to
reconcile his practice and his doctrine in the best manner he
can.


The right honourable gentleman could not for one night
pass by the coalition, yet I think he might have chosen a
fitter time to express his indignation against the noble lord
(North) than the present moment. An attack upon the
noble lord in his presence would bear a more liberal colour ;
and the cause of his absence now"', would surely rather
disarm than irritate a generous enemy. There are distinc-
tions in hatred, and the direst foes upon such occasions mo-
derate their aversion. The coalition, is, however, a fruitfhl
topic, and the power of traducing it, which the weakest and


Lord North left the houic'. in a state of indisposition, about taidnight.




252 MR. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS.
[Dec. T,


meanest creatures in the country enjoy and exercise, is of
course equally vested in men of rank and parts, though every
man of parts and rank would not be apt to participate in the
privilege. Upon the coalition, the right honourable gentle-
man is welcome to employ his ingenuity, but upon another
subject alluded to by him, I shall beg leave to advise, nay even
to instruct him.


In what system of ethics will the right honourable gentle-
man find the precept taught of ripping up old sores, and re-
viving animosities 'among individuals, of which the parties
themselves retain no memory '" ? This kind of practice may
incur a much worse charge than weakness of understanding,
and subject a man to much greater imputations than are
commonly applied to political mistakes or party 'violence.
The soundness of the heart may be liable to suspicion, and
the moral character be in danger of suffering by it, in the
opinion of mankind. To cover the heats, and obliterate the
sense of former quarrels between WO persons, i§ a very dis-
tinguished virtue : to renew the subject of such differences,
and attempt the revival of such disputes, deserves a name
which I could give it, if that right honourable gentleman had
not forgotten himself; and fallen into some such deviation.
He values himself I doubt not, too much, again to make a
similar slip, and must even feel thankful to me for the coun-
sel I thus take the liberty to give him.


An honourable gentlemen under the gallery, (Mr. Martin,)
to whom an abuse of the coalition seems a sort of luxury,
wishes that a starling were at the right hand of the chair to
cry out " disgraceful coalition !" Sir, upon this subject I
shall say but a few words. The calamitous situation of this
country required an administration whose stability could give
it a tone of firmness with foreign 'nations, and promise
some hope of restoring the faded glories of the country.
Such an administration could not be formed without some
junction of parties; and if former differences were to be an
insurmountable barrier to union, no chance of salvation re-
mained for the country; as it is well known, that four pub-
lic men could not be found, who had not, at one time or
other, taken opposite sides in politics. The great cause of
difference between us and the noble lord in the blue ribbon no
longer existed; his personal character stood high ; and think-
ing it safer to trust him than those who had before deceived
us, we preferred to unite with the noble lord. A similar


1783J NE. FOX S EAST INDIA BILLS. 253


junction, in 1757, against which a similar clamour was raised,
saved the empire from ruin, and raised it above the rivalship
of all its enemies. The country, when we came into office,
bore not a very auspicious complexion ; yet, Sir, I do not
despair of seeing it again resume its consequence in the scale
of nations, and again make as splendid a figure as ever.
Those who asserted the impossibility of our agreeing with the
noble lord end his friends, were false prophets; for events
have belied their augury. 'We have differed like men, and
like men we have agreed. A body of the best and honestest
men in this House, who serve their country without any other
reward than that arising from the disinterested discharge of
their public duty, approved that junction, and sanctify the
measure by their cordial support.


Such, Sir, is this coalition, which the state of the country
rendered indispensable ; and for which the history of every
country records a thousand precedents ; yet to this the term
disgraceful is applied. Is it not extraordinary, then, that
gentlemen should be under such spells of false-delusion, as not
to see, that if calling it disgraceful makes it so, these epithets
operate with equal force against themselves. If the coalition
be disgraceful, what is the anti-coalition ? When I see the
right honourable gentleman (Mr. W. Pitt) surrounded by the
early objects of his political, nay his hereditary hatred, and
hear him revile the coalition, I am lost in the astonishment
how men can he so blind to their own situation, as to at-
tempt to wound us in this particular point, possessed as we arc
of the power of returning the same blow, with the vulnerable
part staring us directly in the face. If the honourable gentle-
man under the gallery wishes that a starling were perched upon
the right hand of the chair, I tell him, that the wish is just
as reasonable, to have another starling upon the left hand of
the chair, to chirp up coalition against coalition, and to har-
monize their mutual disgrace, if disgrace there be.


With the same consistency, an honourable gentleman calls
us deserters — Us ! A few cold and disaffected members fall
off, then turn about, and, to palliate their own defection,
call the body of the army deserters ! 'We have not de-


. serted ; here we are a firm phalanx. Deserted, indeed, we
have been in the moment of disaster, but never dejected, and
seldom complaining. Some of those who rose upon our
wreck, and who eagerly grasped that power which we had
the labour of erecting, now call us deserters. We retort
the term with just indignation. Yet whilst they presume we


;'`-- Mr. Jenkinson sat near Mr. Pitt, Mr. Dundas, &c,
Mr. Pitt, in the course of his speech, had alluded to the duel between


Mr. Fox and Mr. Adam See Vol. p. zoo.




54 Ant. fox.% LAST INDIA BILLS. [Dec. T.
we have the attributes of men, they would expect us to have
the obduracy of savages. They would have our resentments
insatiate, our rancour eternal. In our opinion, an oblivion
of useless animosity is nuch more noble; and in that, the
,condnet of our accusers goes hand in hand with us. But .1
beg of the House, and I wish the world to observe, that al-
though, like them, we have abandoned our enmities, we have
not, like them, relinquished our friendships; but there are a
set amen, who, from the mere vanity of leaving consequence
as decisive voters, object to all stable government; these men
hate to see an administration so fixed, as not to be moveable
by their vote. They assume their dignity on Ahe mere
negative merit of not accepting places, and dU the pride of
this self-denial, and the vanity of fimcied independence, they
object to every system ,that has a solid basis, because their con-
sequence is unfelt. .OX such men I cannot be the panegyrist,
and I am sorry that some such men are among the most estie
mable in this House.
• An honourable gentleman advises me for the future, not
to mention the name of the Marquis of Rockingham, who, he
says, would never .countenance a bill of this kind. This is
indeed imposing had conditions wen those who have wil,
Jingly wife-red a sort of political .martyrdom in the cause of
that noble lord's principles, those who surrendered .pomp and
power, rather than remain where his principles ceased to be
titshionable, and were withering .into contempt. I venerate
the name of that noble marquis, and shall ever mention it
with love .and reverence; but at no period of my life with


• wee .confidence than et this moment, when I •say, that his
soul speaks in every Atte of the bill before you, for his soul
speaks in every measure of virtue, wisdom, humane po-
licy, .general justice, and national honour. The name of the
noble lord who enjoys his fortune, has been mentioned this
debate, and will be mentioned again by Inc.; I will tell the
.honourable gentlemen, that ,tehis imble lord, (Fare
though not the issue of his.loins, *halts, with his property,
the ;principles of that noble marquis in all their purity and
soundness; and is as incapable as that noble marquis himself
ewes, or as any man on earth is, of countenancing any act
which either immediate!: or ultimately tends to theprejudice
.of ,his country, or the .injury of the constitution. I : haye .144c1
hithe honour of knowing the noble earl from an.early age. Xave. observed the motives of his actions,, I am endeared -t9
him by every tie of kindred sentiment, and of . mutual prin-
ciple. A character more dignified and exalted exists not in
the empire; nor a mind more firmly attached to the con-
stitution of his country : he is, what the nation would desire


5


I783°3Iit.TOYS EAST INDIA BILLS. 25 5


in the heir of the Marquis of Rockingham,—th=e only com-
pensation that we can have for his loss.


An honourable gentleman (Mr. Thomas Pitt) has :used
-.ielent terms against this bill, and the movers of it. Sir, I
tell that honourable gentleman (looking directly in the face
of Mr. T. Pitt) that the movers of this bill are not to be
brow-beaten by studied .gesture, nor frightened by tremulous
tones, solemn phrases, or hard epithets. To arguments they
are ready to reply ; but all the notice they can take-of asser-
tions, is to mark to -the House, that they are only assertions.
The honourable gentleman again repeats his favourite language
of our having " seized upon the government;" his majesty
changed his ministry last April, in consequence of a vote of
this House; his majesty did the same twelve months before,
in consequence of a vote of this House. His majesty in so
doing followed the example of his predecessors; and his suc-
cessors I doubt not, follow the example of his majesty.
The votes of parliament have always .decided upon the dura-
tion of ministry, and always will, I trust. It is the nature
of our •constitution; and those who dislike it, had better at-
tempt to alter it. The honourable gentleman called the
change in 1782 a glorious one; this in 17-83 a disgraceful one.
Why ? For a very obvious, though a very bad reason. The
right honourable gentleman assisted in effecting the first, and
strenuously laboured to prevent the second. The first battle
he fought with us ; the second against us, and we vanquished
him. In 1782 his friends were out, and would be in. In
178 3 his friends were in, nor would go out. Thus having
clone without him what we once did with him, the House
sees his motive. It is human nature; but certainly not the
better part or human nature. He says he is BO party man,
and he abhors a systematic opposition. I have always ac-
knowledged myself •to be a party man ; I have always acted
with a party in whose principles I have confidence, and if
had such an opinion •of any ministry as the right honourable
gentleman professes to have of us, I would pursue their over-
throw by a systematic opposition. I have done so more than
Once, and I think that, in succeeding, I saved my country.
Once the right honourable gentleman, as I have said, was
with me, and then our conduct was fair, manly, constitutional,
and honourable ! The next time he was against me, and our
Conduct was violent and unconstitutional, 'it was treasonable,
end yet the means were in both instances the same, the means
were the votes of this House.


A game of a two-fold quality is playing :by the other side
of the House upon this occasion, to which hope the House,
and the kingdom, will attend. They are endeavouring to




256 MR. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS. [Dec. T.
injure us through two channels at the same time, th roug,
certain great quarter, and through the people. a
attempting to alarm the first, by asserting that this bill in-
creases the influence of ministry against the crown ; and roils,
ing the people, under an idea that it increases the influence
of the crown against them. That they will fail in both I
doubt not. In the great quarter I trust they are well under-
stood, and the princely mind of that high person is a secu-
rity against their devices: they are running swiftly to take off
whatever little imposition might have been put upon any part,
even of the multitude. And I wish to rescue the character
of the public understanding from the contemptuous implica-
tion, that it is capable of being gulled by such artifices. I
feel for my country's honour when I say, that Englishmen,
free themselves, and fond of giving freedom to others, disdain
these stratagems, and are equally above the silliness of cre-
diting the revilers of this act, as above the baseness of con-
federating or making common cause with those who would
support a system which has dishonoured this country, and
which keeps thirty millions of the human race in wretched-
ness. I make allowances for the hair-brained headstrong de-
lusions of folly and ignorance, and the effects of design. To
such evils every measure is liable, and every man must ex-
pect a portion of the consequence. But for the serious and
grave determinations of the public judgment I have the
highest value ; I ever had, and ever shall have. If it be a
weakness, I confess it, that to lose the good opinion of even
the meanest man, gives me some pain ; and whatever triumph
my enemies can derive from such a frame of mind, they are
welcome to. I do not, after the example of the honourable.
gentleman who began this debate, hold the opinion of con.
stithents in disparagement. The clear and decided opinion
of the more reasonable and respectable should, in my mind,
weigh with the member upon the same principle, that I think
the voice of the nation should prevail in this House, and in
every other place. But when the representative yields to the
constituent, it should indeed be by the majority of the rea-
sortable and respectable, and not, as we shall see in a day or
two, some of the honestest men in England voting against
the most popular tax ever introduced into this House, in di-
rect opposition to their own conviction, and not upon the
opinion of either the more respectable or reasonable class of
their constituents.


My noble friend, (Lord John Cavendish,) with his charac-
teristic spirit, has said, that we never sought power by cabal
or intrigue, or under-hand operations.; and this he said in
reply to an honourable gentleman, (Mr. Thomas Pitt,) whose


78 .3*] MR. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS. 2 5 7


condu ct demonstrates that he thinks those the surest path for
his friends. This bill, as a ground of contention, is farcical;
this bill, if it admitted it, would be combated upon its in-
trinsic qualities, and not by abusing the coalition, or raising
a clamour about influence: but why do not the gentlemen
speak out fairly, as we do ; and then let the world judge be-
tween us? Our love and loyalty to the sovereign are as ar-
dent and firm as their own. Yet the broad basis of public
character, upon which we received, is the principle by which
we hope to retain this power; convinced as we are that the
surest road to the favour of the prince, is by serving him
with /zeal and fidelity; that the safest path to popularity, is
by reducing the burden, and restoring the glory of the na-
tion. Let those [looking at Mr. Jenkinsonj who aim at office
by other means, by inscrutable and mysterious methods,
speak out ; or, if they will not, let the world know it is be-
cause their arts will not bear examination, and that their
safety consists in their obscurity. Our principles arc well
known; and I would rather perish with them, than prosper
with any other.


The honourable gentleman under the gallery (Mr. Martin)
also says, le dislikes systematic opposition. IVhether per-
petually rising up with peevish, capricious objections to every
thing proposed by us, deserve that name or not, I leave the
gentleman himself to determine, and the House to reflect
upon that kind of conduct which condemns the theory of its
own constant practice; but I meet the gentleman directly
upon the principle of the term. He dislikes systematic op-
position; now, I like it. A systematic opposition to a dan-
gerous government is, in. my opinion, a noble employment
for the brightest faculties; and if the honourable gentleman
thinks our administration a bad one, he is right to contribute
to its downfal. Opposition is natural in such a political sys-
tem as ours; it has subsisted in all such governments; and
perhaps it is necessary. But to those who oppose it, it is ex-
tremely essential that their manner of conducting it should
not incur a suspicion of their motives. If they appear to
oppose from disappointment, from mortification, from pique,
from whim, the people will be against them. If they oppose
from public principle, from love of their country rather than
hatred to administration, from evident conviction of the bad-
11. ess of measures, and a full persuasion that in their resistance
to men, they are aiming at the public welfare, the people will.ebe with them. We opposed upon these principles, and the
People were with us; if we are opposed upon other prin-
ciples, they will not be against us. Much labour has been
e
mployed to infuse a prejudice upon the present subject; and




2 8 MR. Fox's EAST INDIA BILLS.. [Dec.. r.


I have the satisfaction to believe, that the labour has been
fruitless; making, however, a reasonable exception for the
Mistakes of the uninformed,. the first impressions of novelty,
and the natural result of deliberate malice. We desire to be
tried by the test of this bill, and risk our character upon the
issue; confiding thoroughly in the good sense, the justice,
and the spirit of Englishmen. Not lofty sounds, nor se-
lected epithets, nor passionate declamation in this House,
nor all the sordid efforts of interested men out of this House
—of men whose acts in the East have branded the British
name, and whose ill-gotten opulence is working through a
thousand channels to delude and debauch the public under-
standing—can fasten odium upon this measure, or draw down
obloquy upon the authors of it. We have been tried in the
cause of the public; and until we desert that cause, we are
assured of public confidence and protection.


The honourable gentleman (Mr. Powys) has supposed for
me a soliloquy, and has put into my mouth some things
which I do not think are likely to be attributed to me: he
insinuates that' I was incited by avarice, or ambition, or party
spirit. I have failings in common with every human being,
beside my own peculiar faults: but of avarice I have indeed
held myself guiltless. My abuse has been, for many years,
even the profession of several people ; it was their traffic, their
livelihood; yet until this moment I knew not that avarice was
in the catalogue of the sins imputed to me. Ambition I
confess I have, but not ambition upon a narrow bottom, or
built upon paltry principles. If, from the devotion of my
life to political objects, if from the direction of my industry
to the attainment of some knowledge of the constitution, and
the true interests of the British empire, the ambition of taking
no mean part in those acts that elevate nations and make a
people happy, be criminal, that ambition I acknowledge.
And as to party spirit—that I feel it, that I have been
ever under its impulse, and that I ever shall, is what I pro-
claim to the world. That I am . one of a party, a party never
known to sacrifice the interests, or barter the liberties of the
nation for mercenary purposes, for personal emolument or
honours; a party linked together upon principles which com-
prehend whatever is clear and most precious to free men, and
essential to a free constitution, is my pride and my boast.


The honourable gentleman has made one assertion, which
it is my pride to confirm : he says that I am connected with
a number of the first families in the country. Yes, Sir, I
have a peculiar glory that a body of men renowned for their
ancestry, important for their possessions, distinguished fro'.
their personal worth, with all that is valuable to men at stake,


1 7 8 3'] MR. FOX'S LAST INDIA BILLS. 259
hereditary fortunes and hereditary honours, deem me worthy
of their confidence. With such men T. am something—
without them, nothing. My reliance is upon their good opi-
nion; and in that respect, perhaps, I am fortunate. Although
I have a just confidence in my own integrity, yet as I am
but man, perhaps it is well that I have no choice but between
my own eternal disgrace and a faithful discharge of my public
duty. Whilst these kind of men are overseers of my conduct,
whilst men whose uprightness of heart and spotless honour
are even proverbial in the country [looking at Lord John
Cavenclishj are the watchmen of my deeds, it is a pledge to the
public for the purity and rectitude of my conduct. The
prosperity and honour of the country are blended with the
prosperity and honour of these illustrious persons. They
have so much at stake, that if the country falls, they fall with
it; and to countenance any thing against its interest, would
be a suicide upon themselves. The good opinion and pro-
tection of these men is a security to the nation for my beha-
viour, because if I lose them, I lose my all.


Having said thus much upon the extraneous subjects intro-
duced by the honourable gentleman into the debate, I shall
proceed to make some observations upon the business in ques-
tion. When the learned gentleman brought in his bill last
year, the House saw its frightful features with just horror ;
but a very good method was adopted to soften the terrors of
the extravagant power that bill vested in the governor-gene-
ral. The name of a noble lord (Cornwallis) was sent forth
at the same time, whose great character lent a grace to a
proposition, which, destitute of such an advantage, could not
be listened to for




one moment. Now, Sir, observe how dif-
ferently we have acted upon the same occasion. Earl Fitz-
william has been spoken of here this day, in those terms of
admiration with which his name is always mentioned. Take
notice, however, that we did not avail


• ourselves of the fame
of his virtue and abilities in passing this bill through the
House. If such a thing were to have taken place as the insti-
tution of an Indian secretaryship, (according to the suggestions
of some gentlemen) this noble lord would certainly have
been the very person whom, for my part, I should have ad-


.


.yised his majesty to invest with that office. Yet, although
his erect mind and spotless honour would have held forth to
the public the fullest confidence of a faithful execution of its .
duties, the objections in regard to influence upon a remove-
able officer, are tenfold in comparison with the present scheme,
The House must now see, that with all the benefits we might
derive from that noble lord's character,that although his
name would have imparted a sanctity, an ornament, and an


S 2




260 MR. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS. [Dec. I.
honour to the bill, we ushered it in without that ceremony,
to stand or fall by its own intrinsic merits, neither shielding
it under the reputation, nor gracing it under the mantle, of
any man's virtue. Our merit will be more in this, when the
names of those are known whom we mean to propose to the
House, to execute this commission. [Name them, said Mr.
Arden, across the House.] I will not—I will not name
them ; the bill shall stand or hill by its own merits, Without
aid or injury from their character. An honourable gentle-
man has said that these commissioners will be made up of our
" adherents and creatures." Sir, there is nothing more easy
than to use disparaging terms; yet I should have thought the
name of Earl Fitzwilliam would have given a fair presump-
tion that the colleagues we shall recommend to this House for
the co-execution of this business with that noble Lord, will
not be of a description to merit these unhandsome epithets.
I assure the honourable gentleman they are not. I assure
him they are not men whose faculties of corrupting, or whose
corruptibility, will give any alarm to this House, or to the
country ; they are men whose private and public characters
stand high and untainted ; who are not likely to countenance
depredation, or participate in the spoils of rapacity. They are
not men to screen delinquency, or to pollute the service by
disgraceful appointments. Would such men as Earl Fitz-
william suffer unbecoming appointments to be made? Is Earl
Fitzwilliam a man likely to do the dirty work of a minister?
If they, for instance, were to nominate a Paul Bonfield to go
to India in the Supreme Council, would Earl Fitzwilliam
subscribe to his appointment? This is the benefit of having a
commission of high honour, chary of reputation, noble and
pure in their sentiments, superior to the little jobs and traffic
of political intrigue.


But this bill, Sir, presumes not upon the probity of the
men ; it looks to the future possibility of dissimilar successors,
and to the morality of the present commissioners, who are
merely human, and therefore not incapable of alteration.
Under all the caution of this bill, with the responsibility it
imposes, I will take upon me to say, that if the aggregate
bcdy of this Board determined to use all its power for the-


, purpose of corruption, this JIouse, and the people at large,
would have less to dread from them, in the way of influence,
than from a few Asiatics who will probably be displaced in
consequence of this arrangement, some of whom will return
to this country with a million, some with seven hundred
thousand, some with five, beside the three or four hundred
thousand of others, who are cut off in their career by the
hand of fate, An inundation of such wealth is fin: more dal-L-


I()


1783.] MR. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS. 261


gerous than any influence that is likely to spring from a plan
of government so constituted as the one proposed—whether
the operation of such a mass of wealth be considered in its
probable effects, upon the principles of. the members of this
Nouse, or the manners of the people at large, more especially
when a reflection that Orientalists are in general the most
exemplary class of people in their morals, and in their de-
portment the most moderate, and corresponding with the dis-
tinction of their high birth and family, furnishes a very reason-
able presumption, that the expenditure of their money will be
much about as honourable as its acquirement.


I shall now, Sir, conclude my speech with a few words up-
on the opinion of the right honourable gentleman (Mr. Pitt).
He says, he will stake his character upon the danger of this
bill. I meet him in his own phrase, and oppose him, charac-
ter to character ; I risk my all upon the excellence of this bill;
I risk upon it whatever is most dear to me, whatever men most
value, the character of integrity, of talents, of honour, of pre-
sent reputation and future fame; these, and whatever else is
precious to me, I stake upon the constitutional safety, the en-
larged policy, the equity, and the wisdom of this measure, and
have no fear in saying, (whatever may be the fate of its au-
thors) that this bill will produce to this country every blessing
of commerce and revenue; and that by extending a generous
and humane government over those millions whom the inscru-
table destinations of Providence have placed under us in the
remotest regions of the earth, it will consecrate the name of
England amongst the noblest of nations.


Mr. Fox then recapitulated the heads of his speech, and
sat down. He was upon his legs about an hour and a hall:


At four o'clock in the morning the House divided on the ques-
tion , that the Speaker do leave the chair :


YEA S


Tellers. ' Tellers.
t Mr. Eden 1 Lord Mahon


Mr. Sheridan S 2 7. —
NT ES° - { Mr. Arden } 103.


So it was resolved in the affirmative.


December 8.
On the 3rd of December the bill was committed, and the per-


sons nominated to be commissioners or directors were, the Earl
Fitzwilliam, Mr. Frederick Montagu, Lord Lewisham, Mr. George
Augustus North, Sir Gilbert Elliott, Sir Henry Fletcher, and Mr.
Gregory. On the 8th, Mr. Secretary Fox moved the third read-
ing of the bill " for vesting the affairs of the East-India Company
in the hands of certain commissioners for the benefit of the proprie-
tors and the public." This occasioned a warm debate, which lasted


a3




2O2
MR. Fox's EAST INDIA BILLS.


[Dec. 8.
till three in the morning. In reply to the observations of Mr.
Powys, Mr. Scott, and Lord Mulgrave,


Mr. Secretary Fox rose, not, he said, so much to remove
the unfavourable opinions gentlemen had of his conduct as a
minister, as to wipe off the infamy and reproach they had, in
the course of that debate,. been pleased to cast upon his repu-
tation as a man. He thought he had been very unhandsome-
ly treated. It was nut enough that gentlemen had allowed.
him no goodness, no virtue, no merit whatever; they had as4
cribed to him many positive defects, and had expressed their
malice, for he would call it nothing but malice, with all the
virulence and all the malignity which fancy could invent.
There was one circumstance of elimination which he took


•ex-
ceedingly ill. An honourable gentleman (Mr. Powys) had
charged him with a species of delinquency which touched his
feelings more than any other, because the only principle from
which it conk! flow, was a principle the most opposite of all
others to those by which he was actuated. That honourable
gentleman had said, that in consequence of the great majority
which ministers had in that House, be had insulted the weaker
party—in his own words, or something like his own words,.
"triumphed over the impotence of independent members." It
was, he said, a cruel insinuation ; and it was as unjust as it was
cruel. It supposed him guilty of a crime which he never was.
capable of conceiving; and it plainly declared, that all his pro-
fessions of candour, of disinterestedness, and of attachment to
the sacred rights of mankind, were nothing but words, delusive
words, framed for some other purpose. He desired that ti*
honourable gentleman who had spoken of him with so much free*
dom, might be assured that no expressions that ever had fallen
from him, were ever meant to apply to him. He did not know
that he had ever said any thing personal; if he had, it was
aimed at those self-important members, who were so fond of
their own conceits, and who thought every thing they uttered
should be received as a law. He was not certain that he had
not some time or other spoken with that intention; but to
blame the honourable gentleman, who seemed so much cha-
grined, would have been among the last things that would have
struck him. His virtue, his patriotism, his commendable zeal,
all conspired to forbid any such impeachment.


Mr. Fox here observed, that gentlemen had that night dis-
covered uncommon warmth in the cause they were engaged in.
They had been very earnest to thwart and oppose his wishes.
They had also shewn skill in their mode of attack on him :
they had placed a learned and eloquent member (Mr. Scott)
in front; and he had certainly acquitted himself ably. But


1783.] MR. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS. 263


lie was not yet overthrown ; he trusted to the goodness of his
cause, and the support of his friends for success. A noble lord
(Mulgrave) had said much on the imminent danger that had been
brought upon the state, by the accession of influence which the
crown was about to receive. That noble lord, and almost every
other gentleman who had spoken, had deprecated that influence,
and at the same time had beheld with astonishment the change
of principles which sensibly appeared in him Mr. Fox)
in all his late proceedings; but he could easily satisfy them, if
they would be satisfied, of the groundless nature of their fears
in the first instance, and of their deception in the other. The
influence they so much dreaded, was not an influence that would
revert to the crown ; it might revert to the crown ; that was
not impossible; but it was more likely to return to the inde-
pendent members of that House; to those very members, with
grasping at whose indisputable rights, he was now accused
but falsely accused. Respecting the change of my principles,
said Mr. Fox, I declare, that I am sensible of no such change;
none such has taken place : at this very moment I entertain
the same jealousies of the rights of parliament, and of the
people; and I watch with the same circumspection that ever I
did, every degree of undue patronage or influence which the
crown may acquire. When I went into office, the power of
the crown had been diminished : the different powers in the
state were pretty equally poised ; that was a state I wished to
see them in, and it is a state that they shall always continue in,
if my best exertions can effect that desirable object. With re-
gard to the bankruptcy of the state, the learned gentleman
(Mr. Scow who has said so much, has told us that the state-
ment of another learned gentleman, who is now absent, was
such and such, and that he had advanced such stubborn facts
that nothing could resist them. Is it fair thus to combat one
with the opinions of a man who is not here to give his reasons?
But this is the way, the unfair way, in which I am attacked ;
every gentleman on the opposite side of the House has set his
terrors in array before me; but I am not to be terrified. I
understand their terror; and I give it its proper appellation, it
is nothing but envenomed malice,


Mr. Fox then observed, that his bill had been violently op-
. posed in all its stages ; but it stood on so secure a basis, and,
what some gentleman might wonder to hear him say, it was so
Popular, that he was not afraid to trust its issue to the decision
of the public. It had been absurdly said, that the present
bills both increased and decrease:, the power of the crown. In
God's name, said he, what power or influence does my bill
take from the crown that it possessed before ? Or what power
does it add which it did not possess before? The bill takes no


.8 4




264 MR. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS. [Dec. 17.
influence from the crown; but it adds a good deal to parlia-
ment ; and if it be doubtful in any of its tendencies, it is the
duty of parliament to examine it carefiffly, and to try to cor-
rect its defects. The right honourable secretary concluded
with asserting the rights of the independent members; and
with declaring, that to deprive them of any of those rights
would be the last act of which he was capable.


The other speakers in support of' the motion were, Mr. Nichols,
Mr. John Luttrell, General Burgoyne, Mr. Anstruther, Mr. Adam,
Mr. Erskine, the Attorney-General, Mr. Rigby, Mr. Sheridan,
and Mr. Courtenay. The speakers against the motion were Mr.
Hamilton, Mr. Wilkes, Mr. W. Grenville, Mr.Martin, Sir Richard
Hill, Mr. W. Pitt, Mr. Arden, Mr. Wilberforce, Mr Jenkinson,
Mr. Dundas, Sir Cecil Wray, Sir Watkin Lewes, Mr. Alderman
Townshend, Mr. Alderman Sawbridge, and Mr. Flood. On a divi-
sion the numbers were


, Tellers. Tellers.
IYEAS Lord Maitland


208—NOES} VIr. Powys 1 2. *Mr. Burke Sir George Yonge '
The bill was then read a third time and passed ; and on the fol-


lowing day Mr. Fox, attended by a great number of members pre-
sented it at the bar of the House of Lords.


December 7.
Up to the period of the preceding debate, no symptoms


had appeared, at least to the public eye, that indicated the ap-
proaching fate both of the bill and its authors. Great pains, in-
deed, were taken, and with considerable success, by an almost
incredible circulation of pamphlets and political engravings, to in-
flame the nation against the measures and the persons of adminis-
tration ; and it. was also remarked, that in the House of Commons,
several of that description of members, well known by the name of
king's friends, gave their votes on the side of opposition. But it
was generally imagined, that as, on the one hand, the ministryz,
was too strong to be shook by the breath of popular clamour, so
on the other, it seemed to the last degree improbable that they
should have adopted a measure of such infinite importance, either
without knowing, or contrary to the inclinations of the king. Oa
the first reading of the bill in the House of Lords, Earl Temple,
Lord Thurlow, and the Duke of Richmond, expressed their ab-
horrence of the measure in the strongest and most unqualified
terms. A brilliant panegyric on Mr. Hastings was pronounced by
Lord Thurlow, and the flourishing state of the company's affairs
insisted on. After a short debate relative to the production of
papers, on which the lords in opposition did not choose to divide
the house, the second reading was fixed for Monday, December
i5th. In the mean time, various rumours began to circulate, re-
lative to some extraordinary motions in the interior of the court.
It was confidently affirmed, that on the r i th of December the king
signified to the Earl Temple, who had been ordered,to attend him


1783.] MR. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS. 265-


in the closet for that purpose, his disapprobation of the India bill,
and authorized him to declare the same to such persons as he might
think fit ; that a written note was put into his hands, in which his
majesty declared " That he should deem those who should vote
for it not only not his friends, but his enemies ; and that if he
(Lord Temple) could put this in stronger words, he had full au-
thority to do so." And, lastly, that in consequence of this au-
thority, communications had been made to the same purport to
several peers in the upper house ; and particularly to those whose
offices obliged them to attend the king's person. Some extraor-
dinary circumstances, which happened on the isth of December,
the day of the second reading of the bill confirmed the probability
of the truth of these reports. Several lords, who had entrusted
their proxies to the minister and his friends, withdrew them only
a few hours before the house met ; and others, whose support he
had every reason to expect, gave their votes on the side of opposi-
tion. On the division, which took place upon a question of ad-
journment, the ministers were left in a minority of 79 to 87. The
same day the House of Commons, on the motion of Mr. Baker,
took into consideration the reports above alluded to. He stated,
shortly, that the public notoriety, both of the fact itself and of the
effects it had produced, called on the house, which was the natu-
ral guardian of the constitution, for their immediate interference.
He divided the criminality of the subject matt3r of the report into
two parts ; first, the giving secret advice to the crown ; and, se-
condly, the use that had been made of his majesty's name, for the
purpose of influencing the votes of members of parliament in a mat-
ter depending before them. The first, he contended, was a direct
and dangerous attack upon the constitution. The law declared
that { the King could do no wrong :' and therefore had wisely made
his ministers amenable for all the measures of his government.
This was of the very essence of the constitution, which could no
longer subsist, if persons unknown, and upon whom, consequently,
no responsibility could attach, were allowed to give secret advice
to the crown. With regard to the second, Mr. Baker proved, from
the journals, that to make any reference to the opinion of the
king, on a bill depending in either house, had always been judged
a high breach of the privileges of parliament ; he therefore con-
cluded with moving, " That it is now necessary to declare, that
to report any opinion, or pretended opinion, of his majesty, upon
any bill or other proceeding, depending in either house of parlia-
ment, with a view to influence the votes of the members, is a high
crime and misdemeanor, derogatory to the honour of the crown,
a breach of the fundamental privileges of parliament, and subversive
to the constitution of this country." The motion was seconded by
Lord Maitland, and strongly opposed by Mr. William Pitt, who
urged the impropriety of proceeding on mere unauthenticated ru-
mours ; alledging, at the same time, that if such rumours were
Judged a proper foundation for the house to proceed upon, there
were rumours circulated with equal industry, in which the same
use was made of his majesty's name in favour of the bill, that had
been so much condemned when supposed to have been used in op.




266 MR. PDX'S EAST INDIA BILLS. [Dec.


position to it. With respect to the effects which had been adduced
as a proof of the truth of the report, if they referred to a late divi-
sion in the other house, he thought the premises did not warrant
the conclusion, as it was no very unusual thing for the lords to re-
ject a bill that had been passed by the commons, without the small-
est suspicion of undue influence. With respect to the criminality
of the filets which were the subject of these reports, he denied that
it was criminal in any of the peers, who were the acknowledged
hereditary counsellors of the crown, to give his advice to the king
in any case whatever ; and as to the breach of the privileges of par-
liament, he contended, that the precedents which had been read
from the journals, though selected from the glorious times of King
Charles I. were in nowise applicable to the present case. Mr. Pitt
concluded his speech with reproaching the ministers for their base
attachment to their offices, though, upon their own state of the
case, they had lost their power, and no longer professed the confi-
dence of their prince.


Mr. Secretary Fox spoke to the following effect:
I did not intend, Sir, to have said any thing in addition to


what has been already urged so ably in favour of the resolu-
tion now agitated. In my own opinion, its propriety and ne-
cessity, are compleatly and substantially established. A few
particulars, suggested in the course of the debate by gentle-
men on the other side of the house, may be thought, however,
to merit some animadversion. And, once for all, let no man
complain of strong language. Things are now arrived at
such a crisis as renders it impossible to speak without warmth.
Delicacy and reserve are criminal where the interests of Eng-
lishmen are at hazard. The various points in dispute strike
to the heart; and it were unmanly and pusillanimous to wrap
up in smooth and deceitful colours, objects which, in their
nature and consequences, arc calculated to fill the House and
the country with a mixture of indignation and horror.


This, at least, has made such an impression on my mind,
that I never felt so much anxiety ; I never addressed this
House under such a pressure of impending mischief; I never
trembled so much for public liberty as I now do. The ques-
tion before the House involves the rights of parliament in all
their consequences and extent. These rights are the basis of
our constitution, and form the spirit of whatever discrimi-
nates the government of a free country. And have not these
been threatened and assaulted? Can they exist a moment in
opposition to such an interference as is supposed by the reso-
lution, as has been stated by several honourable gentlemen,
to have taken place? No: human nature is not sufficiently
perfect to resist the weight of such a temptation. When,
therefore, shall the House assert its dignity, its independence,
'its prerogatives, by a resolute and unequivocal declaration of


MR. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS.
2671783.1


all its legal and constitutional powers, but in the instant of
their danger? The disease, Sir, is come to a crisis; and now
is the juncture which destines the patient to live or die. We
are called to sanctify or oppose an absolute extinction of all
for which our ancestors struggled and expired. We are
called to protect and defend, not only the stipulated franchises
of Englishmen, but the sacred privileges of humanity. We
arc called to protract the ruin of the constitution. The de-
liberations of this night must decide whether we are to be
freemen or slaves ; whether the House of Commons be the
palladium of liberty, or the organ of despotism ; whether we
are henceforth to possess a voice of our own, or to be only
the mere mechanical echo of secret influence. Is there an in-
dividual, who feels for his own honour, callous to an appre-
hension of such a consequence as this? Does not every regard
which he owes to a body who cannot be degraded without his
disgrace, who cannot expire without involving his fate, rouse
his indignation, and excite him to every exertion, both in his
individual and delegated capacity, which can reprobate, sus-
pend, or destroy a practice so inimical to public prosperity,
as well as hostile to the very existence of this House ?


But what is this resolution ? It has been called, with great
technical acuteness, a truism, which seems as incapable of
discussion as it is of proof. The foundation of it, however,
is a matter of such general and palpable notoriety, as to put
every degree of scepticism to defiance. Rumours of a most
extraordinary nature have been desseminated in no common
way, and by no inferior agents. A noble earl is said to have
used the name of majesty with the obvious and express inten-
tion of affecting the decisions of the legislature concerning a
hill, of infinite consequence to thirty millions of people, pend-
ing in parliament. The nature of this debate will not allow
me to avoid the mention °filmes. The reality of reports cir-
culating, and operating to a certain degree, is equally ad-
mitted on all sides of the house. The arguments urged to
defeat the use which is made of this fact by the resolution
under discussion, are far from contradicting its veracity. No:
its validity is supposed; the consequences only, which we im-
pute to that circumstance, are disputed. No man has yet
ventured, or dares to venture, to stand forth, and say, in so
many words, that it does not exist. This would certainly
finish the contest much to the honour of the nobleman con-
cerned, but still more to the satisfaction of this House and
the tranquillity of the public. His honourable relation, who
dares the House to a specific charge, leaves that whole load


- of suspicion and crimination on the character he would
defend, unbroken, undiminished, and unequivocal. This may




268 MR. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS. [Dec.


not be so much owing to a consciousness of delinquency, as a
sentiment of pride: pride is the passion of little, dark, intriguing
minds; and nothing but the truth of the charge can, in the pre,
sent case, be more incompatible with every principle of reed.,
tulle and virtue. This rumour has been treated with a levity
which amounts to a sarcasm or lampoon on the dignity of the
House. But I will tell gentlemen it is not a newspaper sur-
mise, but something much stronger and more serious ; there is
a written record to be produced. This letter (pulling it out
of his pocket) is not to be put in the balance with the lye of
the day. It states, that " his majesty allowed Earl Temple to
say, that whoever voted for the India bill, were not only not
his friends, but he should consider them as his enemies.
And if these words were not strong enough, Earl Temple
might use whatever words he might deem stronger, or more
to the purpose." Is this parliamentary, or is it truth?
Where is the man who dares to affirm the one or deny the
other ? or to say, that he believes in his conscience such a
rumour was not calculated to produce an immediate effect?
It certainly tended, in the first instance, to vilify, in the gross-
est and most violent manner, the proceedings of parliament.
It says to the public, that we are not equal to our trust; that
we either ignorantly or wilfully betray the interest of our con-
stituents; and that we are not to be guided in our decisions
by their convictions or our own, but by that unseen and mys-
terious authority, to whom the sovereign, his counsellors and
the legislature, are only the blind and passive instruments.
Both 'Houses of parliament are consequently parties in the
contest, and reduced, by this unfortunate and w:Lked advice,
to the predicament of a man struggling for his life. We are
robbed of our rights, with a menace of immediate destruction
before our face. From this moment, farewel to every indepen-
dent measure ! Whenever the liberties of the people, the rights
of private property, or the still more sacred and invaluable
privileges of personal safety, invaded, violated, or in danger,
are vindicated by this House, where alone they can be legally
and effectually redressed, the hopes of the public, anxious,
eager and panting for the issue, are whispered away and for


z,
ever suppressed by the breath of secret influence. A parlia-
ment thus fettered and controlled, without spirit and without
freedom, instead of limiting, extends, substantiates, and esta-
blishes beyond all precedent, latitude, or condition, the prero-
gatives of the crown. But,


b
thouah the British House of Com-


mons were so shamefully lost to its own weight in the constitu-
tion, were so unmindful of its former struggles and triumphs
in the great cause of liberty and mankind, were so indifferent
and treacherous to those primary objects and concerns for


783.] PDX'S EAST INDIA BILLS. 269
which it was originally instituted, I trust the characteristic
spirit of this country is still equal to the trial; I trust English-
men will be as jealous of secret influence as superior to open vio-
lence; I trust they are not more ready to defend their interests
against foreign depreciation and insult, than to encounter and
defeat this midnight conspiracy against the constitution.


The proposition of this evening is, therefbre, founded on a
fact the most extraordinary and alarming this country could
possibly hear; a fact, which strikes at the great bulwark of our
liberties, and goes to an absolute annihilation, not of our char-
tered rights only, but those radical and, fundamental ones
which are paramount to all charters, which were consigned to
our care by the sovereign disposition of nature; which we can-
not relinquish without violating the most sacred of all obliga-
tions; to which we are entitled, not as members of society, but
as individuals, and as men ; the rights of adhering steadily and
uniformily to the great and supreme laws of conscience and
duty; of preferring, at all hazards, and without equivocation,
those general and substantial interests which we have sworn
to prefer ; of acquitting ourselves honourably to our constitu-
ents, to our friends, to our own minds, and to that public
whose trustees we arc and for whom we act.


How often shall the friends of the noble earl, whom I have
named, be called upon to negative the proposition, by vouching
for him his innocence of the charge? Will any of them lay
their hand on their heart, and disavow the fact in that noble-
man's name ? Let them fairly, honourably and decidedly put
an end to that foul imputation which rests on his conduct, and
the house must immediately dismiss the report as idle and ill
founded. But, while no man comes honestly forward and
takes truth by the hand, we must look to the consequence.
This House must not lose sight of its rights and those of the
community. The latter can subsist no longer than the former
are safe. We now deliberate on the life and blood of the con-
stitution. Give up this point, and we seal our own quietus,
and are accessary to our own insignificance or destruction.


But how is the question, thus unsuccessfully put to the
friends and abettors of secret influence in this, answered, when
put to the noble principal in the other House? Is he ready
and eager to vindicate his own character, and rescue that of
his sovereign from so foul a reproach ? No : but he replies in
that mean, insiduous, equivocal, and temporising language,
which tends to preserve the effect without boldly and manfully
abiding by the consequences of the guilt. Such was the an-
swer, as mysterious and ill designed as the delinquency it wasintended to conceal ; and the man only, who could stoop to
the baseness of the one, was the most likely in the world to




270
MR. Fox's EAST INDIA BILLS.


[Dec.
screen himself behind the duplicity of the other. What, therei
shall we infer from - a system of acting and speaking thus guard_
ed and fallacious, but that the device was formed to operate
on certain minds, as it is rumoured to have done; and that
such a shallow and barefaced pretext could influence those
only, who, -without honour or consistency, are endowed with
congenial understandings !


Had this alarming and unconstitutional interference hap-
pened in matters of no consequence, or but of inferior conse-
quence, the evil would not have appeared of such magnitud;;
as it does. But let us consider the nature of the business
which it is intended to impede or suppress. For nearly twenty
years have the affairs of the East India company, more or less,
occasionally engrossed the attention of parliament. Commit-
tees of this House, composed of the most able, industrious, and
upright characters, have sat long, indefatigably, and assidu-
ously, in calling forth, arranging, digesting, and applying
every species of evidence which could be found. Reports of
their honest and elaborate conduct are before the House. The
public feel the pressure of this monstrous and multifarious ob-
ject. Gentlemen in opposition were at least not insensible to
its necessity, its urgency, and its importance. An honourable
gentleman, (Mr. W. Pitt,) who has distinguished 'rims( so
much on this occasion, protested very solemnly against all pal-
liatives, expedients, or the abortive substitutes of radical and
complete measures. To meet that honourable gentleman's
idea, as well as to suit the exigence of the case, the present
bill was brought in. It has been called a rash, inconsiderate,
and violent measure. The House is aware discussion it
has occasioned; and I dare any one to mention a single argu-
-ment brought against it which has not been candidly and fairly
tried, not by the weight of a majority, but by the force of plain
and explicit reasoning. No bill was ever more violently and
systematically opposed, investigated at greater length, or by
more ability; passed the House under the sanction of a more
respectable and independent majority, or had more the coun-
tenance and patronage of the country at large. How, then,
did it succeed in the other House ? What was the reception
which, thus circumstanced, it received from their lordships?'
Some degree of decency might have been expected from one
branch of the legislature to another. That- respectable inde-
pendence which ought to be the leading feature in their deci-
sions, is not incompatible with, but essential to such a mutual
deference for the procedure of each, as must be the consequence
of acting constitutionally. The bill, however, though matured
and debated by all the abilities of this House, though urged
by the most powerful of all arguments, necessity, And though


1783.3 MR. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS.
271


recommended by almost two to one on every division it occa-
sioned, will in all probability be lost.


But, Sir, I beseech the House to attend to the manner in
which it is likely to meet such a fate. Is this to be effected
by the voice of an independent majority ? Can any man view
the lords of the bedchamber in that respectable light? and
the whole fortune of the measure now depends on their de-
termination. The rumour, so often stated, and alluded to,
was calculated, and intended to answer, an immediate and
important end. I am far from saying that it ought. Those
in high office and elevated rank, should prove themselves
possessed of high and elevated sentiments; should join, to an
exquisite sense of personal honour, the most perfect probity
of heart ; should discover as much dignity and strength of
understanding as may be naturally expected from a superior
education, the distinctions of fortune, and the example of the
great and the wise. But how does this description agree
with their mode of managing their proxies? These they
cordially give in before a rumour of the King's displeasure
reaches their ears; .the moment this intimation is made, on
the same day, and within a few hours, matters appear to them
in quite a different light, and the opinion which they em-
brace ill the morning, is renounced at noon. I am as ready
as any man to allow, what is barely probable, that these lords
might receive new convictions, which, like a miracle, ope-
rated effectually and at once; and that, notwithstanding their
proxies, from such a sudden and extraordinary circumstance,
without hearing any debate or evidence on the subject, they
might feel an immediate and unaccountable impulse to make
their personal appearance, and vote according to their con-
sciences. Who would chuse to say that all this may not
actually have been the case? There is certainly, however,
a very uncommon coincidence in their lordships' peculiar
situation and this unexpected revolution of sentiment; and,
were I disposed to treat the matter seriously, the whole com-
pass of language affords no terms sufficiently strong and
pointed to mark the contempt which I feel for their con-
duct. It is an imprudent avowal of political profligacy; as
if that species of treachery were less infamous than any other.
It is not only a degradation of a station which ought to be
occupied only by the highest and most exemplary honour,
but forfeits their claim to the characters of gentlemen, and
reduces them to a level with the meanest and the basest of
the species : it insults the noble, the ancient, and the charac-
teristic independence of the English peerage, and is calcu-
lated to traduce and vilify the British legislature in the eyes
of all Europe and to the latest posterity. By what magic




272 MR. Fox's EAST INDIA BILLS. [Dec. 17.
nobility can thus charm vice into virtue I know not nor wish
to know; but in any other thing than politics, and among
any other men than lords of the bedchamber, such an instance
of the grossest perfidy would, as it well deserves, be branded
with infamy and execration.


Is there any thing, then, Sir, more plain and obvious, than,
that this great, this important, this urgent measure, is be-
come the handle of a desperate fiction, whose principal object
is power and place? It is the victim not of open and fair
reasoning, but of that influence which shuns the fight and
shrinks from discussion: for those who pledged their honour
in its support, from an acknowledged conviction of its rec-
titude, its propriety and utility, have broken that faith, and
relinquished their own judgments, in consequence of a rumour
that such a conduct would be personally resented by the so-
vereign. What bill, in the history of parliament, was ever
so traduced, so foully misrepresented and betrayed in its
passage through the different branches of the legislature?
The stroke which must decide the contest, cannot come from
its real enemies but its false friends; and its fate, without
example in the annals of this House, will be handed down
to the remotest posterity, not as a trophy of victory but a
badge of treachery.


Here, Sir, the honourable gentleman, with his usual libe-
rality, upbraids me with monopolizing, not only all the in-
fluence of the crown, the patronage of India, and the prin-
ciples of whiggism, but the whole of the royal confidence:
but all such round, unqualified and unfounded imputations
must be contemptible, because they are not t. Le; and the
bitterest enemy, not lost to every sense of manliness, would
scorn to become an accuser on grounds so palpably false.
It is, indeed, its it has always been, my only ambition to act
such a part in my public conduct, as shall eventually give
the lie to every species of suspicion which those who oppose
me seem so anxious to create and circulate : and, if to
compass that by every possible exertion from which no
man in the sound exercise of his understanding can honestly
dissent, be a crime, I plead guilty to the charge. This I
am not ashamed to avow the predominating passion of my
life; and I will cherish it, in spite of calumny, declamation,
and intrigue, at the risk of all I value most in the world.


But, Sir, in this monopoly of influence, the lords of the
bedchamber ought at least, for the sake of decency, to have
been excepted. These, we all know, are constantly at the
beck of whoever is minister of the day. How often have
they not been stigmatized with the name of the household
troops, who, like the Praetorian bands of ancient Rome, are


1783.]


MR. Fox's EAST INDIA BILLS. 273'
always prepared for the ready execution of every secret
mandate ! I remember a saying of an able statesman, whom,
though I differed with in many things, I have ever acknow-
ledged to be possessed of many eminent and useful qualities.
The sentence I allude to I have always admired for its
boldness and propriety. It was uttered by the late George
Grenville in experiencing a similar treachery, — and would
to God the same independent and manly sentiments bad
been inherited by all who bear the name ! —" I will never
again," said he, " be at the head of a string of janissaries,
who are always ready to strangle or dispatch me on the least
signal."


Where, Sir, is that undue, that unconstitutional influence,
with which the honourable gentleman upbraids me and those
with whom I act? Are our measures supported by any other
means than ministers . have usually employed? In what, then,
am I the champion of influence? Of the influence of sound
and substantial policy, of open, minute, and laborious dis-
cussion, of the most respectable whig interest in the kingdom,
of an honourable majority in this House, of public confidence
and public responsibility, I am proud to avail myself, and
happy to think no man can bar my claim. But every sort
of influence unknown to the constitution, as base in itself' as
it is treacherous in its consequences, which is always suc-
cessful because incapable of opposition, nor ever successful
but when exerted in the dark, which, like every other mon-
ster of factious breed, never stalks abroad but in the absence
of public principle,, never assumes any other shape than a
whisper, and never frequents any more public place of resort
than the back stairs or closet at St. James's, — all this secret,
intriguing, and underhand influence, I am willing and ready
to forego. I will not even be the minister of a great and
free people on any condition derogatory to my honour and
independence as a private gentleman. Let those who have
no other object than place, have it and hold it by the only
tenure worthy of their acceptance, — secret influence: — but
without the confidence of this House as well as that of the
sovereign, however necessary to my circumstances and de-
sirable to Inv friends, the dignity and emoluments of office
shall never be mine.


Is it, then, to the India bill I am indebted for, this new
,appellation? Is there a single argument on this topic which
has not been thoroughly and repeatedly discussed? But the
honourable gentleman has two strings to his bow : if he can-
not blow me with the people, by demonstrating how this
measureincreases the influence of the crown, he will try what
Ile can do with the crown, by exhibiting it as generating an


VOL. u.




274 MR. FOX'S EAST INDIA
BILLS. [Dec. 17.


independence or aristocracy for the minister. His own po,
pularity may go a great way in accomplishing the one, and
secret influence will always be adequate to the other ; and
by an incessant clamour against the whole of the business,
fomented and propagated at the instance of a mean and in_
terested action, it is not unlikely he may succeed in both.
But I must beg gentlemen to consider, that this measure,
which owes all its imperfections and obnoxious qualities —
not to the original text — but to the notes and-commentaries
of its numerous editors and interpreters, is intended merely
as an experiment, subject to the cognizance and controul a
the legislature. Is there any thing here independent of the
three estates in parliament assembled? You say it is an exe-
cutive power for which the constitution affords no prescrip-
tion. But are you aware to what extent this argument goes?
It deprives you, at one stroke, of all the manifold advantages
which result from every possible modification of colonization.
What system of government can be applied to any foreign
settlement or territory whatever, which is not proscribed by
the same reasoning? And, if this literal adherence to the
form, in contradiction to the spirit of the constitution, is to be
adopted, without regard 'to the many vast commercial in-
terests which produce the most fertile resources, and form
no inconsiderable share of our national strength and distinc-
tion, we shall soon be circumscribed within our original boun-
daries, and be accounted as little among the nations as ever
we were great.


Conclusions, however, on such speculative theories as these
are as idle as unsatisfactory. We never can forget that some-
thing must be done. I deny that any thing has yet been
offered or tried, more congenial to the constitution, more ade-
quate to the object, or more advantageous to the community
at large than the bill in question. I am perfectly aware of
whatever has been or can be alledged on the subject; but,
abstracted from the scramble of interest and the pitiful bug-.
bears of design, not one solid objection on the point of
influence has yet been advanced. The novelty of the sys


-tem is quite as good a foundation for predicting the best as
the worst consequences. It is rare that men are thus prone
to misconstrue the plainest propositions without some latent
purpose; and we have the same right to comment on the
motives on which the measure is opposed, as you have for
reprobating those in which it originated.


Even supposing the rumours on which the resolution vi3'
proposed were true, it is allcdged that a noble duke in the
Other House counteracted the effect of one influence by Lo-
.Other. It had been whispered that his majesty had audio'


r783.] MR. IOX's EAST INDIA BILLS. 275
rised his name to be used with a certain view : his grace, as
the only expedient left fbr preserving the minds of their
lordships unbiassed, and the personal honour of his sovereign
unspotted, gave a negative to the fact. A tale was propa-
gated which tended equally to traduce the crown and em-
barrass government. How was he to defeat the obvious
design of such a notorious libel on the best of princes ?
Was it his duty to let it pass unnoticed, and shed undis-
turbed all its influence on the minds of those for whose in-
struction and emolument it was originally devised ? Or had
he any other mode.of averting its intention and success than
by denying its reality? It would be hard, indeed, to debar
ministers of a right to destroy falsehoods fabricated on pur-
pose to destroy them. Such a prohibition amounts to their
relinquishing a very material species of self defence, which is
one of the most valuable privileges of human nature; and,
whatever the honourable gentleman may be willing to sacrifice
to office, this is one condition at least, to which I will never
be a party.


The task, therefore, he has assigned me of being the
champion of influence, belongs more properly to himself;
who has this night stood forward in defence of a practice,
which cannot be indulged for a moment but at the immi-
nent risk of every thing great and valuable which our con-
stitution secures. With what consistency he embarks in a
cause so hostile and ominous to the rights and wishes of
Englishmen, those who have known his connections and
observed his professions will judge. Let him not, then, in
the paroxysm of party zeal, put a construction on my con-
duct which it will not bear, or endeavour to stamp it with
the impression of his own. For that influence which the con-
stitution has wisely assigned to the different branches of the
legislature, I ever have contended, and, I trust, ever shall.
That of the crown, kept within its legal boundaries, is essen-
tial to the practice of government; but woe to this country
the moment its operations are not as public and notorious
as they are sensible and effective ! A great writer has said,
that the English constitution will perish, when the legislative
becomes more corrupt than the executive power. Had he
been as sound a judge of the practice as of the theory of go-
vernment, he might have added, with still greater truth, that
we shall certainly lose our liberty, when the deliberations of
parliament are decided — not by the legal and usual — but
by the illegal and extraordinary exertions of prerogative.


The honourable gentleman declares, that if the king is thusprevented from consulting. his peers, who are constitutionally
stiled the ancient and hereditary counsellors of the crown, or


T 2




276
MR. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS. [Dec. 17,


any other of his subjects, whenever he is pleased to call for it,
he would be a captive on his throne and the first slave in his
own dominions. Does he, then, affect to think or allege
that it is the desire of ministers to proscribe all social inter-
course between his majesty and his subjects? I will tell the
honourable gentleman thus far his argument goes, and that is
something worse than puerility and declamation ; it is dis-
guising truth under such colours as are calculated to render
it. odious and detestable. The lords are undoubtedly entitled'
to advise the throne collectively ; but this does not surely
entitle every noble individual to take his majesty aside, and,
by a shocking farrago of fiction and fear, poison the royal
mind with all their own monstrous chimeras. Whoever knows
the mode of digesting business in the cabinet, must be sensible,
that the least interference with any thing pending in parlia-
ment must be dangerous to the constitution. The question
is not, whether his majesty shall avail himself of such advice
as no one readily avows, but who is answerable for such advice?
Is the honourable gentleman aware, that the responsibility of
ministers is the only pledge and security the people of Eng-
land possess against the infinite abuses so natural to the ex-
ercise of this power? Once remove this great bulwark of the
constitution, and we are, in every respect, the slaves and pro-
perty of despotism. And is not this the necessary consequence
of secret influence?


How, Sir, are ministers situated on this ground ? Do they
not come into power with a halter about their necks, by which
the most contemptible wretch in the kingdom may dispatch
them at pleasure? Yes, they hold their several offleesnot at
the option of the sovereign—but of the very reptiles who bur-
row under the throne. They act the part of puppets, and arc
answerable for all the folly, the ignorance, and the temerity or
timidity of some unknown juggler behind the screen : they
are not once allowed to consult their own, but to pay an im-
plicit homage to the understandings of those, whom to know-
were to despise. The only rule by which they are destined to
extend authority over freemen, is a secret mandate which car-
ries along with it no other alternative than obedience —or
ruin ! 'What man, who has the feelings, the honour, the spirit,
or the heart of a man, would stoop to such a condition for any
official dignity or emolument whatever? Boys, without judg-
ment, experience of the sentiments suggested by the knowledge
of the world, or the amiable decencies of a sound mind, may
follow the headlong course of ambition thus precipitantly, and
vault into the seat while the reins of government are placed in
other hands : but the minister who can bear to act such a dis-


;783.] MR. rox's EAST INDIA BILLS. 2 7 7


honourable part, and the country that suffers it, will be mu-
tual plagues and curses to each other.


Thus aukwardly circumstanced, the best minister on earth
could accomplish nothing, nor on any occasion, however press-
ing and momentous, exert the faculties of government with
spirit or effect. It is not in the human mind to put forth the
least vigour under the impression of uncertainty. While all my




best meant and best concerted plans are still under the control
of a villainous whisper, and the most valuable consequences,
which I flattered myself must have resulted from my honest
and indefatigable industry, are thus defeated by secret influence,
i t
is impossible to continue in office any longer either with


honour to. myself, or success to the public. The moment I
bring forward a measure adequate to tile exigency of the state,
and stake my reputation, or indeed whatever is most dear and
interesting in life, on its merit and utility, instead of enjoying
the triumphs of having acted fairly and unequivocally, all my
labours, all my vigilance, all my expectations, so natural to
every generous and manly exertion, are not only vilely fritter-
ed, but insidiously and at once whispered away by rumours,
which, whether founded or not, are capable of doing irrepara-
ble mischief, and have their full effect before-it is possible to
contradict or disprove them.


So much has been said about the captivity of the throne,
while his majesty acts only in concert with his ministers, that
one would imagine the spirit and soul of the British constitu-
tion were yet unknown in this House. It is wisely established
as a fUndamental maxim, that the king can do no wrong; that
whatever blunders or even crimes may be chargeable on the
executive power, the crown is still faultless. But how ? Not
by suffering tyranny and oppression in a free government
to pass with impunity ; certainly not : but the minister who
advises or executes an unconstitutional measure, does it at his
peril ; and he ought to know, that Englishmen are not only
jealous of their rights, but legally possessed of powers, compe-
tent on every such emergency to redress their wrongs. "What
is the distinction between an absolute and a limited monarchy?
but that the sovereign, in the one, is a despot; and may do
what he pleases, but in the other, is himself subjected to the
laws, and consequently-not at liberty to advise with any one on.
Public affairs not responsible for that advice; and the consti-
tution has clearly directed his negative to operate under the
same wise restrictions. These prerogatives are by no means
vested in the crown to be exerted in a wanton and arbitrary
manner. The good of the whole is tile exclusive object to
which all tile branches of the legislature and their different
Powers invariably .


point. Whoever interferes with this pri-
T 3


I




278
MR. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS.


[Dee. 17.


mary and supreme direction, must, in the highest degree, be
unconstitutional. Should, therefore, his majesty be disposed
to check the progress of the legislature in accomplishing any
measure of importance, either by giving countenance to an
invidious whisper, or the exertion of his negative, without at
the same time consulting the safety of his ministers, here would
be an instance of mar-administration, for which, on that sup..
position, the constitution has provided no remedy. And God
forbid that ever the constitution of this country should be found
defective in a point so material and indispensable to public
welfare!


sir, it is a public and crying grievance that we are not
the first who have felt this secret influence. It seems to be
a habit against which no change of men or measures can ope-
rate with success. It has overturned a more able and popular
minister (Lord Chatham) than the present, and bribed him
with a peerage, for which his best friends never cordially for-
gave him. The scenes, the times, the politics, and the system
of the court, may shift with the party that predominates, but
this dark mysterious engine is not only formed to control every
ministry, but to enslave the constitution. To this infernal
spirit of intrigue we owe that incessant fluctuation in his ma-
jesty's councils, by which the spirit of government is so much
relaxed, and all its minutest objects so "fatally deranged. Dui.-
ing the strange and ridiculous interregnum o


• last year, I had
not a doubt in my own mind with whom it originated ; and I
looked to an honourable gentleman (Mr. Jenkinson) opposite
to me, the moment the grounds of objection to the East India
bill were stated. The same illiberal and plodding cabal who
then invested the throne, and darkened the royal mind with ig-
norance and misconception, have once more been employed
to act the same part. But how will the genius of Englishmen
brook the insult? Is this enlightened and free country, which
has so often and successfully struggled against ever y species of
undue influence, to revert to those Gothic ages, when princes
were tyrants, ministers minions, and government intriguing?
Much and gloriously did this House fight and overcome the in-
fluence ofthe crown by purging itself of ministerial dependants:
but what was the contractors' bill, the board of trade, or a vote
of the revenue officers, compared to a power- equal to one-third
of the legislature, unanswerable for, and unlimited in its act-
ing? Against these we had always to contend ; but we knew
their strength, we saw their disposition, they fought under no
covert, they were a powerful, not a sudden enemy. To com-
promise the matter, therefore, Sir, it would become this House
to say, rather than yield to a stretch of prerogative thus un-
precedented and alarming, withdraw your secret influence,


II


1783.]


MR. PDX'S EAST INDIA BILLS. 279


and, whatever entrenchments have been made on the crown,
we are ready to repair : take back those numerous and tried
dependants who so often secured you a majority in parliament ;
we submit to all the mischief' which even this accession of
strength is likely to produce ; but for God's sake strangle us
not in the very moment we look for success and triumph by an
infamous string of bedchamber janissari es !


The honourable gentleman has told us, with his usual con-
sequence and triumph, that our duty, circumstanced as we are,
can be attended with no difficulty whatever : the moment the
sovereign withdraws his confidence, it becomes us to retire.
I will answer him in my turn, that the whole system in this dis-
honourable business may easily be traced. Aware of that glo-
rious and independant majority which added so much dignity
and support to the measure which appears thus formidable to
secret influence, they find all their efforts to oppose it here
abortive : the private cabal is .consequently convened, and an
invasion of the throne, as most susceptible of their operations,
proposed. It was natural to expect that I, for one, would not
be backward to spurn at such an interference. This circum-
stance affords all the advantage they wished. I could not be
easy in my situation under the discovery of such an insult; and
this critical moment is eagerly embraced to goad me from of-
lice, to upbraid me with the meanness of not taking the hint,
to remind me in public of the fate which I owe to secfet ad-
vice. When that hour comes, and it may not be very distant,
that shall dismiss me from the service of the public, the ho-
nourable gentleman's example of lingering in office after the
voice of the nation was that he should quit it, shall not be
mine. I did not come in by the fiat of majesty, though by this
fiat I am not unwilling to go out. I ever stood, and wish only
and always to stand on public ground. I have too much pride
ever to owe any thing to secret influence. I trust in God this
country has too much spirit not to spurn and punish the mi-
nister that does ! I arrogate no pomp, however, from the for-
mality of resignation. My noble friend, I hope, thinks with
me, that the present is one of those singular junctures when it is
necessary to act with caution as well as spirit. We are cer-
tainly agreed not to retain our places any longer than we can
maintain the dignity of government with responsibility and
effect; and to the constitutional mandate of dismission we are
prepared to bow with humility and obedience. We have been,
repeatedly reminded of our disagreeable situation ; but the chief
fact to which we owe this inconveniency was only not foreseen,
from an idle opinion that no man could be base and servile
enough to undertake it. But now, our eyes are open to trans-
actions, of which ocular demonstration only could have con-


T 4




280 MIt. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS. [Dec. 17.
vinccd us. We only beg when the revolution, which it is sup-
posed may be effected in the royal breast, is authentically an-
nounced, we may be allowed to judge for ourselves. I will
apprise gentlemen, however, that the situation of ministers is
at present extremely delicate. They stand pledged to the
public and a very honourable majority of this House, not to
relinquish the affairs of the state while in so much anarchy
and distraction. And what ministry could wish for a stronger,
or more desirable foundation than such a. majority as have
constantly voted with us? For my own part, I ever thought
public confidence the only substantial basis of a sound admi-
nistration. The people of England have made me what I am ;
it was at their instance I have been called to a station
in their service; and, perhaps, it would not be treating them
well, hastily to abandon the post to which they have generous-
ly raised me. The whole of that respectable arrangement in
which I am but an, individual, are, in my opinion, bound in
honour to do something at least for thirty millions of innocent
people, whose expectations have been raised and flattered by
our exertions; who have long struggled under every oppression,
and grappled with their fate in vain ; whose wretched and de-
plorable circumstances affect the British character in every
corner of the world with infamy and horror; and who, at this
moment, in spite of every exertion both of the legislature and
court'of directors, groan under the scourge, the extortion, and
the massacre, of a cruel and desperate man, whom, in my con-
science and from my heart, I detest and execrate.


It is impossible to overlook, or not to be su-nrised at the ex-
treme eagerness of the honourable gentleman about our
places, when twenty-four hours, at most, would give him full
satisfaction. Is it that some new information may be requisite
to finish a system thus honourably begun ! Or is the honour-
able gentleman's youth the only account which can be given
of that strange precipitancy and anxiety which he betrays on
this occasion ? It is, in my opinion; the best apology which
can be urged in his behalf. Generosity and unsuspecting
confidence are the usual disposition of this tender period.
The friends of the .honourable gentleman, I doubt not, will
soon teach him experience and caution; and, when once he
has known them as long, received as many of their promises,
and seen their principles as much tried as I have done, he may
not, perhaps, be quite so prodigal of his credulity as he now
is. Is he apprised of the lengths these men would go to serve
their own selfish and private views? that their public spirit is
all profession and hypocrisy? and that the only tie which
unites and keeps them together is, that they are known only to
each other, and that the moment of their discord, puts a period
to their strength and consequence?


1783.7 MR. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS, 281


If, however, a change must take place, and a new ministry
is to be formed and supported, not by the confidence of this
House or the public, but the sole authority of the crown, I,
for one, shall not envy that honourable gentleman his situa-
tion. From that moment I put in my claim for a monopoly
of whig-principles. The glorious cause of freedom, of inde-
pendence, and of the constitution, is no longer his, but mine.
In this I have lived ; in this I will die. It has borne me up
under every aspersion to which my character has been sub-
jected. The resentments of the mean and the aversion of the
great, the rancour of the vindictive and the subtilty of the base,
the dereliction of friends and the efforts of enemies, have not,
all, diverted me from that line of conduct which has always
struck me as the best. In the ardour of debate, I may have
been, like all other men, betrayed into expressions capable of
misrepresentation ; but the open and broad path of the con-
stitution has uniformly been mine. I never was the tool of
any junto. I accepted of office at the obvious inclination of
this House : I shall not hold it a moment after the least hint
from them to resume a private station.


The honourable gentleman is, however, grasping at place
on very different grounds. He is not called to it by a majo-
rity of this House; but, in defiance of that majority stands
forth the advocate and candidate for secret influence. How
will he reconcile a conduct thus preposterous to the constitu-
tion, with those principles for which he has pledged himself
to the people of England ? By what motives can he be thus
blind to a system, which so flatly and explicitly gives the lie
to all his former professions ? Will secret influence conciliate
that confidence to which his talents, connections, and princi-
ples, entitled him; but which the aspect under which he
must now appear to an indignant and insulted public effec-
tually bars his claim? Will secret influence unite this House
in the adoption of measures which are not his own, and to
which he only gives the sanction of his name to save them
from contempt ? Will secret influence draw along with it that
affection and cordiality from all ranks, without which the
movements of government must be absolutely at a stand? Or,
is he weak and violent enough to imagine, that his majesty's
mere nomination will singly weigh against the constitutional
influence of all these considerations ? For my own part, it has
been always my opinion, that this country can labour under
no greater misfortune than a ministry Without strength and
stability. The tone of government will never recover so as to
establish either domestic harmony or foreign respect, without
a- permanent administration ; and whoever knows any thing
of the constitution, and the present state of parties among us,




2 8 2 MR. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS. [Dec. 17.
must be sensible, that this great blessing is only and substan-
tially to be obtained and realized in connection with public
confidence. It is undoubtedly the prerogative of the sove-
reign to chuse his own servants ; but the constitution provides
that these servants should not be obnoxious to his subjects by
rendering all their exertions, thus circumstanced, abortive
and impracticable. The honourable gentleman had, there-
fore, better consider how much he risks by joining an ar-
rangement thus hostile to the interests of the-people ; that they
will never consent to be governed by secret influence, and that
all the weight of his private character, all his eloquence and
popularity, will never render the midnight and despotic man-
dates of an interior cabinet acceptable to Englishmen.


When 1 say in what manner, and to what ends, the wisdom
and experience of our ancestors have thus directed the exer-
cise of all the royal prerogatives, let me not be understood as
meaning, in any degree, to detract from those dutiful regards,
which all of us owe as good citizens and loyal subjects to the
prince who at present fills the British throne. No man ve-
nerates him more than I do, for his personal and domestic
virtues. I love him as I love the constitution, for the glorious
and successful efforts of his illustrious ancestors in giving it
form and permanency. The patriotism of these great and
good men must endear, to every lover of his country, their
latest posterity. The king of England can never lose the es-
teem of his people, while they remember with gratitude, the
many obligations_ which they owe to his illustrious family.
Nor can I wish him a greater blessing, than '.iat he may reign
in the hearts of his subjects, and that their confidence in his
government may be as hearty and sincere as their affection for
his person.


" That it is necessary to the most essential interests of this kin


'


The House divided on the question that the order of the day be
now read,


Tellers.
80


`ORS Mr. Baker1Lord Maitland '53.
Mr. Baker's motion was consequently carried by a majority of 73.


It was then resolved, " That on Monday next the House would
resolve itself into a committee of the whole House, to consider of
the state of the nation." As a change of ministers appeared to be a
measure determined on by the king, and the dissolution of parlia-
ment an immediate and necessary consequence, the majority of the
House thought no time was to be lost in endeavouring to render
the attempt as difficult as possible. With this view, immediately
after the above resolutions were agreed to, Mr. Erskine moved,


g-


MR. FOX S EAST INDIA BILLS.178'3.] 28 3
done, and peculiarly incumbent on this House, to pursue with un-
remitting attention the consideration of a suitable remedy for the
abuses which have prevailed in the government of the British do-
minions in the East Indies ; and that this House will consider as
an enemy to this country, any person who shall presume to advise
his majesty to prevent, or in any manner interrupt, the discharge
of this important duty." The motion was opposed, as interfering
with the executive part of government, and trenching on the un-
doubted prerogative of the crown, without any justifiable cause.
The motion was however carried by a majority of 1 47 to 7 3. On
the 17th of December the India bill was rejected by the Lords, on
a division of 95 to 76.


COPIES OF MR. Fox's EAST INDIA BILLS.


A Bill for vesting the Affairs of the East India Company in
the Hands of certain Commissioners, for the Benefit of the
Proprietors and the Public.


'WHEREAS disorders of an alarming nature and magnitude' HEREA
long prevailed, and do still continue and increase, in


the management of the territorial possessions, the revenues, and
the commerce of this kingdom in the East Indies ; by , means
whereof the prosperity of the natives bath been greatly diminished,
and the valuable interests of this nation in the said territorial posses-
sions, revenues, and commerce, have been materially impaired,
and would probably fall into utter ruin if an immediate and fitting
remedy were not provided :


Be it therefore enacted by the king's most excellent majesty, by
and with the advice and consent of the lords spiritual and tem-
poral, and the commons, in this present parliament assembled,
and by the authority of the same, That the government and ma-
nagement of the territorial possessions, revenues, and commerce
of the united company of merchants of England trading to the East
Indies, by the directors and proprietors of the said company, or
either of them ; and all and singular the powers and authorities of
the said directors and proprietors, or of any special, or general, or
other court thereof, in the ordering and managing the said pos-
sessions, revenues, and commerce ; and all elections of directors
of the said united company, be, and are hereby declared to be,
discontinued, for and during the continuance of this act ; any
charter, usage, law, or statute to the contrary notwithstanding.


And be it further enacted by the authority aforesaid, That for
the better governing, ordering, and managing the said territorial
possessions, revenues, and commerce, the Right Honourable


Tellers.
YEAS {Mr. NevilleDundas




284 MR. roes EAST INDIA BILLS. [Dec.
William Earl Fitzwilliam, the Right Honourable Frederick Mon.
tagu, the Right Honourable George Legge, commonly called Lord
Viscount Lewisham, the Honourable George Augustus North, Sir'
Gilbert Elliott, Baronet, Sir Henry Fletcher, Baronet, and Robert
Gregory, Esquire, shall he, and they arc hereby constituted and
appointed directors of the said united compaly, and shall be,
and they are hereby constituted members of the said company ; and
that the said directors hereby appointed, or any three of them,
shall have, use, possess, and exercise all and singular the powers
and authorities which have been at any time heretofore vested
or lawfully exercised by, the said directors hereby discontinued,
proprietors, or by the general court of proprietors of the said united
company, and all such farther and other powers and authorities,
and under such directions, and subject to such limitations and re-
strictions as in this act, or in any other act, the provisions where.
of are not hereby altered or repealed, are contained, for the govern-
ment and management of the said territorial possessions, revenueiii
and commerce of the said united company, or in any wise relative
thereto. al


And be it further enacted by the authority aforesaid, That the'.
said directors hereby appointed shall, and they are hereby author
rised and empowered, immediately from and after the commence;
ment of this act, to enter into and upon, and to possess them-
selves of all lands, tenements, houses, warehouses, and other build
ings whatever, of or belonging to the said united company; and al;,
so to take into their custody and possession all books, records, dot'
currents, charters, acts, instruments, letters, and other papers what;
soever, and also all ships and vessels, goods, wares, merchandises
money, securities for money, and all other effects whatsoever, ,a
or belonging to the said united company, in trust for, and for the
benefit of, the proprietors thereof, and to have, hold, and pos-e-
the same, in like manner as they were held andpossessed by the (:
rectors hereby discontinued, subject to such charges, claims, and
demands as do or may affect the same ; which directors so dis-
continued, and all other officers and servants of said united
company, are hereby enjoined, immediately upon the requisition
of the said directors hereby appointed, signified under their hands
and seals, or the hands and seals of any- three of them, to deliver to
them, or to such person or persons as they shall for that purpose.
appoint, all such lands, tenements, houses, warehouses, buildings,
books, records, documents, charters, acts, instruments, papers,
ships, vessels, goods, wares, and merchandises, money, securities
for money, and all other effects whatsoever.


And for the sole purpose of ordering and managing the com-
merce of the said united company, under and subject to the orders
and directions of the said directors hereby appointed, be it further
enacted by the authority aforesaid, That Thomas Cheap, Esquire,
George Cuming, Esquire, Richard Hall, Esquire, John Harrison,
Esquire, Joseph Sharp, Esquire,John Michie, Esquire,John Smith,
Esquire, George Tatem, Esquire, and James Moffat, Esquire, being
proprietors, each of them of two thousand pounds capital stock in the
said united company, at least, shall be assistant directors, for the


MR. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS.
28 -II 8 3.1


withouturpp requi-las'a ; d sha, from me to time,
sition, and also


fo asresaid
oftenanas 'theyll shall beti




euthernto required, render
account of their proceedings to the said directors hereby ap-


pointed; and in all matters and things whatsoever, shall pursue and
'fol low such orders and directions as they shall from time to time


ose


receiveAAnd from oiitn fsuur dr ier ielcatcotrs.
ed by the authority aforesaid, That in


case any vacancy or vacancies shall happen in the office of the said
directors hereby appointed, by death, resignation, removal, or


such vacancy or vacancies shall be filled by his majesty,
r his sign manual, within twenty days after notice of such va-


otherwise,


cancy or vacancies shall have been given to one of his majesty's
principal secretaries of state.


And be it further enacted by the authority aforesaid, -
That in


tin


any vacancy or vacancies shall happen in the office of the said
assistant directors, by death, resignation, removal, or otherwise,
such vacancy or vacancies shall be filled by the majority of
the proprietors of the said united company, qualified in the
manner required by an act of the thirteenth year of his present
majesty, intitled " An act for establishing certain regulations for
the better management of the affairs of the East India company,
as well in India as in Europe ;" which proprietors, at such election


, or in any otherof any assistant director, shall not vote by ballot,
covert or concealed manner, but in an open court, for that purpose
only specially summoned ; and every such proprietor, in giving his
or her vote, shall subscribe his or her name in a book to be pre-
pared for that purpose, under the name of the person for whom he
or she shall vote.


And be it further enacted by the authority aforesaid, That if five
of the said directors hereby appointed, who shall be present at any
meeting, shall, upon enquiry, and after examination into the con-
duct and behaviour of the said assistant directors, find that any of
them is guilty of neglect or misdemeanour in the execution of his said
office, or of wilful disobedience of any order or orders of the said.
directors hereby appointed, they are hereby authorised and im-


(–Flowered to remove and displace such assistant directors; entering
in their journals their reasons respectively for removing or displac-
ing such assistant director, signed with their respective names.


And be it further enacted by the authority aforesaid, That the
said William Earl Fitzwilliam shall be, during his continuance as a
director by virtue of this act, chairman of the board of directors,
and the said right honourable Frederic Montagu, deputy chairman
thereof; and if the said chairman shall die, resign, or be removed
from such office of director, at any time during the continuance
of this act, then and in that case the said deputy chairman shall
succeed to the office of chairman of the said board of directors ;
and if the said deputy chairman, being become chairman of the
said board of directors, shall also die, resign, or be removed from
the said office of a director, then and in that case, and also in every
other case of a vacancy in the office of a chairman of the said
board of directors, the said directors, hereby appointed, shall
chuse and elect one of themselves to supply such vacancy ;


I()




286 RIR. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS. [Dec. /7.
and if a vacancy, either by succession otherwise, shall at any time
happen in the said office of deputy chairman of the said board of
directors, established by this act, the said directors hereby appoint-
ed shall, in like manner, chase and elect one of themselves to sup.
ply such vacancy.


And be it further enacted by the authority aforesaid, That the
said chairman of the said board of directors, or, in his absence, the
said deputy chairman, shall have power to call or summons any ex..
traordinary meeting of the said directors hereby appointed, at such
time or times as he shall think expedient; and may, at any meeting
whatever of such directors, if he shall think fit, propose the business
to be first considered by such directors at such meeting ; and in
case of an equal division of voices on any question whatever before
the said board of directors, shall have the casting voice : provided
always, that nothing herein contained shall prevent the majority of
such directors present at any meeting from adjourning their meet-
ings to such time or times as they shall think proper.


And be it further enacted by the authority aforesaid, That it
shall not be lawful for the said directors hereby appointed, or any
of them, upon any question whatever, to vote by ballot, or in any
other covert manner ; and that in any difference of opinion,!ex-
cept as to the election to offices of persons not having before been


• in the service of the said united company, the said directors (as
well the majority as those who shall dissent) shall each of them en-
ter, on the journals of the said directors, his reasons for his vote,
signed-with his name, or his adherence to the reasons entered by
any other director,


And be it further enacted by the authority aforesaid, That no
person furnishing the said united company with shipping, or with
any article of their investment outwards, either from Great Bri-
tain, or from such ports and places as the company's ships have
occasion to touch at in their way to India, or with any naval or
military stores, or concerned in buying and selling any commodity
of the said united company's importation, shall be capable of being
a director or assistant director for the execution -if this act.


And be it also enacted by the authority aforesaid, That no per-
son shall be capable of being a director, or assistant director, for
the execution of this act, against whom the charge of any corrupt
practice, peculation, or oppression in India, doth or shall appear
in the records of the said united company within the space of two
years before the time of his nomination, or shall be made upon
oath before the said directors hereby appointed within the space
of two years before the time of his nomination, until such direc-
tors, or three of them, shall have examined into the same, and
shall have severally declared that they have examined into the
said charge, and do in their conscience believe such person not
guilty of the said charge ; or that they do, upon the said exami-
nation, find the said charge not of sufficient importance to exclude
the said person from the said office of director or assistant director,
as the case may be ; and that they have entered upon their jour-
Uals their reasons for such their opinion.


MR. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS. 237


And be it further enacted by the authority aforesaid, That no
person who Math been, now is, or shall hereafter be, in the service
of the said united company in India, shall be capable of being a
director, or assistant director, for the execution of this act, within
the space of two years from the time of his last return from India.


And be it further enacted by the authority aforesaid, That the
said directors hereby appointed shall, once in every six months,
lay before the proprietors of the said united company, in a general
court to be for that purpose assembled, an exact state of the debts
and credits of the said united company ; the first cost and charges
of their investments, outward and inward : with the sums of money
in India applicable to an investment, according to the last accounts
received therefrom ; an account of the shipping ; an account of
the produce of the sales ; and the state of the warehouses at home
and abroad.


And be it further enacted by the authority aforesaid, That the
said directors hereby appointed shall, within twenty days after
the commencement of every session of parliament, lay before the
lords commissioners of his majesty's treasury (who are hereby
authorised and required, without loss of time, to lay the same
before both Houses of parliament,) an account of the produce of
the territorial and other revenues of the ;aid united company in
India ; and also estimates of the civil, military, and naval establish-
ments there; together with a state of the bond and other debts
due from the said united company in India, distinguishing what
belongs to each of the principal presidencies and settlements of
the said united company in India ; and. also the state of the trade,


. laid by the said directors before the said proprietors at their then
last general court.


And he it further enacted by the authority aforesaid, That the
said directors hereby appointed, or the major part of them, shall
have full power and authority to remove, displace, suspend, ap-
point, confirm, or restore, all and every person or persons what-
soever, from or to any office, station, or capacity whatsoever, civil
or military, in the service of the said united company, or within
the limits of the said united company's charters, or any of them,
or any way concerned in the management of their affairs within
this kingdom, or in India, whether any such person or persons
shall have been nominated or appointed in and by any act or acts
of parliament, or howsoever otherwise nominated or appointed :
except as herein provided and established, as to the appointment
and removal of such directors themselves, and of the said assistant
directors.


_Am" for the more speedy and effectual punishment of offences
committed in India, by persons employed in the service of the
said company, be it enacted by the authority aforesaid, That when-
ever any charge of corruption, peculation, oppression, extortion,
receipt of presents, usury, breach of orders, or other grievous
offence, shall be exhibited or made before the governor general
and council of Bengal, or the president and council of any of the
presidencies or settlements abroad, of the said united company,
and transmitted, from thence to the court of directors, hereby dis-




28$ MR. Fox's EAST INDIA BILLS. [Dec. 17.


continued, or to the said directors hereby appointed, against any.
of the said governors, presidents, or members of the council, of
any of the said presidencies or settlements of the said united com-pany, or others, in any office, station, or employment, civil or
military, in the said united company's service ; or which shall be
exhibited or made by any of' the native princes. dependent upon,
or under the protection of the said united company, against any
such person or persons ; the said directors hereby appointed, shall,
within twenty days after the same shall be received, enter into an
examination of such charge ; and if; upon, or in consequence of
such examination, such directors £11011 not think proper either to
recal or order a prosecution against such person so charged, each
and every such director, making such examination as aforesaid
into such charge, shall enter in writing, and subscribe with his
name, in the journals of such directors, his opinion on the validity
and importance of such charge, with his specific reasons, on the
particular case, for not recalling the person so charged, or for not
ordering a prosecution upon such charge.


And be it further enacted by the authority aforesaid, That
before any person or persons whatsoever, who have been, are, or
shall hereafter be in the service of the said united company, in
any office, station, or employment whatsoever, civil or military, in
any of the presidencies or settlements of the said united company
abroad ; and who have been, or are, or shall be in Great Britain
after such service abroad ; and against whom any charge shall
appear upon any of the company records, or shall have been made
to the said court of directors hereby discontinued, or general .
court of proprietors, or shall be made or exhibited to the said
directors hereby appointed ; shall be permitted by the said di-
rectors hereby appointed to return to any part of India, either in
the same or in any other office, station or employment, in the
service of the said united company ; and also, before the said di- .
rectors hereby appointed shall confirm the appointment, or suffer
the departure from Great Britain for India, of' any person or per-
sons who may have been, or shall be, appointed to any office,
station, or employment whatsoever in the service of the said united
company, and against whom any such charge shall appear, or shall
have been made, or shall be made as aforesaid ; and also before
the said directors hereby appointed, shall themselves appoint any
person, having before been in the service of the said united com-
pany, to any office, station, or employment whatsoever, in the said
united company's service, and against whom any such charge shall
appear, or• shall have been made, or shall be made as aforesaid;
the said directors hereby appointed shall, and they are hereby
required to make a full and particular examination and enquiry
into the conduct of every such person, relative to the said service,
and the subject matter of such charge ; and shall enter on their
journals their reasons for permitting any such person to return, or
confirming the appointment, and permitting the departure, of any
such person, or for themselves appointing any such person (as the
case may be) notwithstanding such charge.


And be it further enacted by the authority aforesaid„ That in
case of any disputes, differences, or controversies Whatsoever,


1 783.1
MR. Fox's EAST INDIA DILLS. 289


which have arisen and are depending, or which shall or may here-
after arise, between the governor-general and council of Bengal ;
or between any of the presidents of any other of the settlements
of the said united company, and their respective councils ; or
between any of the subordinate chiefs and their councils ; or be-
tiveen the government of one settlement and the government of
any other settlement ; or between any of the governors or pre-
siding powers of any of the subordinate settlements ; the said di-
rectors hereby appointed shall, within twenty days after the receipt
of any official account of any such dispute, difference, or contro-
versy, enter upon an examination and enquiry into the same ;
and shall, within three months thereafter, either come to a de-
finitive decision thereupon, or enter upon their journals their
reasons, signed with their respective names, for not coming to such
definitive decision.


And be it further enacted by the authority aforesaid, That if
at any time the governor general and council of Bengal, or the
president and council of any of the principal or subordinate set-
tlements, shall require the direction or opinion of the said direc-
tors hereby appointed, on any matter whatsoever for the govern-
ment of such governor-general and council, or president and
council, or for the settlement or accommodation of any matter in
dispute, or likely to come into dispute, between or among them,
or any of them ; the said directors shall return an answer, opinion, ,
or direction, to such requisition; within three months after receiving
the letter or letters containing the same, or enter upon their jour-
nals their reasons signed, with their respective names, for not
sending the same within the time aforesaid.


And be it enacted by the authority aforesaid, That if at any
time complaint shall be made of any breach of treaty, injury, wrong,
or grievance, done or committed against any native prince in India,
by any of the governments of the said united company's settle-
ments, or any officer or other person, civil or military, in the ser-
vice of the said united company ; or if any such breach of treaty,
Injury, wrong, or grievance, shall (without complaint being made
thereof) appear upon any part of the correspondence relating to
the said united compan y's affairs ; the said directors hereby ap-
pointed shall, as speedily as may be, enquire into such breach of
treaty, injury, wrong, or grievance ; and shall begin their exa-
mination into the same, by reading and considering any treaties,
agreements, or assurances, subsisting between the said united com-
pany and such native prince, 017 any way relative to him, if any
Such there shall be, or any orders which may have been given by
the court of directors hereby discontinued, or general court of pro-
prietors, relating to such native prince ; and the said directors
hereby appointed, shall do full and complete justice to such native
prince for such breach of treaty, injury, wrong, or grievance, and
On every material article and head of charge (if' there be more
than one) specifically, and not upon the whole of such charge in
gross.


And be it further enacted by the authority aforesaid, That three,
and not less, of the said directors, shall form a board for executing


VOL. n.




290 MR. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS. [Dec.
783.]
MR. FOX'S EAST INDIA I3ILLS. 291


this act, or any of the powers thereof, or any other powers vested
in or committed to, or which shall be vested in or committed to,
such directors, and the major part of the said directors present
shall determine, except where the voices shall be equally divided,
and then the chairman, or in his absence, the deputy chairman,
shall have two voices, or the casting voice. ‘-


And be it further enacted by the authority aforesaid, That all
the correspondence of the said directors hereby appointed, with
all persons whatsoever in the service of the said united company,
shall he signed by the secretary of such directors, by order of the
board.


And whereas by virtue of the charter of the said company, and
the regulations which have from time to time been made for the


• better government of the said company, it is required, that cer-
tain acts should be done or consented to, and that certain ac-
counts should be signed by a particular number of the directors
hereby discontinued, be it therefore enacted by the authority
aforesaid, that in all cases whatsoever, where any act, matter, or
thing is directed to be done or consented to, or any accounts or
writing to be signed by the directors hereby discontinued, or to
be done or consented to, or signed by any particular number of
such directors, such act, matter, or thing shall, from and after the
commencement of this act, be done or consented to, and such
accounts or,


writing shall be signed by three of the directors hereby
appointed.


And be it further enacted by the authority aforesaid, That the
said directors hereby appointed, and assistant directors, and each
and every of them, during the continuance of this act, shall be
utterly incapable of taking, holding, or exercising any office, station,
or employment whatsoever, in the service of the said united com-
pany ; and shall also be incapable of taking, holding, or exercising
any other place of profit from the crown, during pleasure.


And be it further enacted by the authority aforesaid, That it
shall and may be lawful for his majesty to remove any of the said
directors hereby appointed, or assistant directors upon an address
of either House of parliament.


And whereas 'a doubt may arise, whether the place of director,
When the same shall be held by any person, to be appointed by
his'imajesty, in manner herein before provided, be not within the


iprovision of an act of the sixth year of the reign of Queen Anne,ntituled, " An act for the security of her majesty's person and
government, and of the succession to the crown of Great Britain
in the protestant line," although the said place shall have been


•created and erected by authority of parliament : be it therefore
enacted and declared by the authority aforesaid, that such office
shall not be deemed and taken to be within the intent and purview
of the said act ; nor shall any person accepting and holding the
same, by an appointment from his majesty, under his royal 41;
manual, be thereby disqualified from being elected, or sitting awl


ovotin. as a member of the House of Commons.
And be it further enacted by the authority aforesaid, That there


shall be allowed and paid for and to each of the assistant directors'
10


for so long time as he shall continue in the office, a clear yearly
salary of five hundred pounds, payable by half yearly payments ;
and that the respective payments of the said salaries shall be stated
and allowed in the account of the disbursements for the manage-
ment of the allhirs of the said united East India company.


And be it further enacted by the authority aforesaid, That this
act and all the provisions herein contained, shall commence and.
take effect from and immediately after this act shall have received
his majesty's royal assent, and shall continue, and be in full force
for and daring the space of four years.


A Bill for the better Government of the Territorial Possessions
and Dependencies in India.


Whereas great disorders have prevailed in the government of
the British territorial possessions, and dependencies thereof in
India ; and the laws and lawful authority of this kingdom have not
been duly obeyed by divers of the servants of the united company
of merchants trading to the East Ind,ies.


For remedy whereof in future, be it declared and enacted, and it
is hereby- declared and enacted, by the king's most excellent ma-
jesty, by and with the advice and consent of the lords spiritual and
temporal, and commons, in this present parliament assembled, and
by the authority of the same, That there is not, nor hath been, any pri-
vilege, authority, power, pre-eminence, or jurisdiction granted, or
meant or intended to be granted, in and by an act of the thirteenth
vearof the reign of his present majesty, intituled, "An act for esta-
blishing certain regulations for the better management of the affairs
of the East India company, as well in India as in Europe," or in and
by any other act or acts whatsover, or in or by any law or usage what-
soever, for the governor-general and council of Bengal, or either
or any of them, collectively or individually, or any other person
whatsoever in the service of the said united company, which doth
or shall in any manner exempt hint or them, in the exercise of any
powers or authorities whatsoever, from a strict and faithful obedi-
ence to the orders and directions which have been issued to or for
them, from the late or any other court of directors, or which shall
or may be issued to or for them by the commissioners named and
appointed in an act of this session of parliament, to manage and
govern the affairs of the said united company, instead of the said.
court of directors and general court of proprietors, or such other
commissioners as shall or may be lawfully appointed for exercising
the powers given them in and by the said act.


And be it further declared and enacted, That all general or spe-
cial orders of the court of directors of the said united company, for
the regulation of the conduct of the governor-general and council
of Bengal, or of any other president and council, or of any other
person or persons, in any other station, office, employment, or ca-
pacity- whatsoever, in the service of the said united company, shall


and are hereby declared to be, rules by which the persons
herein before described shall be governed and directed, until notice


li 2




292 MR. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS. [Dec. 17,


shall be given by the said commissioners of any alteration, revo-
cation, or repeal of them, or any of them.


And whereas pretences have been used to evade the salutary re_
gulations of the said act of the thirteenth year of his majesty's
reign, relative to rules, ordinances, and regulations, as if the pro-
visions contained in the said act, relative thereto, were confined to'
certain forts and factories ; whereby a power subject to no control
has been exercised throughout the provinces of Bengal, Bahar,
and Orissa; be it therefore declared and enacted, That all rules,
ordinances, and regulations, which by the said act it is made lawful
for the governor-general and council of Fort William to issue, for
the good order and civil government of the said settlement, under
certain restrictions and provisions in the said act contained, were
not, nor are meant or intended to be, confined only to such rules,
ordinances, and regulations, as arc made or issued for the go-
vernment of, or relative to forts and factories, or other subordinate
places in the said settlement only ; but shall, and all such restric-
tions and provisions are hereby expressly declared to extend, with-
out any exception or limitation whatsoever, to all rules, ordinances,
and regulations, as are made or issued for the government of or
relative to forts and factories, or other subordinate places, in the
said settlement only ; but shall, and all such restrictions and pro-
visions are hereby expressly declared to extend, without any ex-
ception or limitation whatsoever, to all rules, ordinances, and re-
gulations, made and issued by the said governor-general and
council of Fort William, in whatever place, or wheresoever, or
over whatsoever class or description of persons, the same are to
operate.


And be it further enacted by the authority aforesaid, That any
such rule, ordinance, or regulations, shall not only be duly regis-
tered and published in the supreme court of judicature, but an ac-
count or abstract of the true effect and substance thereof, and of
every clause and provision thereof, in the Persian and Hindostan
languages, shall be registered and published, and affixed up in some
commodious and conspicuous place, in each and every provincial
court within the provinces of Bengal, Bahar, and Orissa, or within
the territory to which it relates.


And be it enacted by the authority aforesaid, That no delegation
.whatsoever of the powers of the governor-general and council of
.Bengal, or of any president and council of any other of the said
:settlements, shall be made or given to the said governor-general
or president, or any other person or persons whatsoever ; and in
case the said governor-general, or any member of the council of
Bengal, or any president or member of the council of any other of
the said settlements, or any other person or persons whatsoever,
shall be employed in the execution of any special commission, the
proceedings thereupon shall not be finally approved, and confirmed
until a full report of the same shall be made to the said governor-
general and council, or president and council, respectively ; and
the person or persons so employed shall, upon the requisition of
the governor-general or president, or any member of the said
council, deliver into council his documents or vouchers do support


1783'1 MR. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS.
293


of any particular fact or facts alledged by him to have happened in
the execution of such commission, and in support of which docu-
ments or vouchers might have been had.


And be it further enacted by the authority aforesaid, That
all correspondence and communication whatsoever, of or by any
resident, agent, or other person employed at the court of any
native prince or state, or of or by any such native prince or
state, or any agent or minister of such native prince or state,
or of or by any chief and council of any factory or subor-
dinate settlement, or any of them, or of or by any collector of re-
venue, shall be addressed to the governor-general and council, or
president and council, respectively ; and all correspondence and
communication whatsoever of or by any such person or persons,
rhether addressed to the said governor-general or his secretary, or
to any member of the council or his secretary, shall be laid before
the council, after the same shall be received.


And be it enacted by the authority aforesaid, That the governor-
general of Bengal, and the president of any other of the said
principal settlements in India, may by his own authority, adjourn
or postpone the consideration of any question whatsoever, in the
respective councils in which they preside, for the space of
and no longer : Provided always, That such governor general or
president shall not have power to adjourn or postpone the same
question more than


And be it enacted by the authority ,aforesaid„ that neither the
governor general and council of Bengal, nor president and coun-t,
cil of any other of the said united company's presidencies or settle-
ments in India, shall have power to cede to, or exchange with, any
native prince or state whatsoever, any territory, which was in the
possession of the said united company, or of any of its dependent
princes or states, in or immediately before the year nor
shall make or accept any acquisition whatsoever, whereby the ter-
ritory of the said united company shall be increased or extended,
without orders or directions expressly for that purpose, transmitted
by the said commissioners appointed in and by an act of this pre-
sent session of parliament, for managing the affairs of the said
united company.


And be it enacted by the authority aforesaid, That it shall not
be lawful for the said governor-general and council of Bengal to
invade, or enter with any armed force, or in any hostile or offensive
manner, into the territory of any native, independent prince or
state in India, except upon intelligence, the credibility and impor-
tance of which shall be allowed by a majority in council, and so
declared to be, in minutes subscribed by each member composing
such majority, upon the records of the said council, that such
prince or state is about to attack and make war upon, or actually
making preparations to attack and make war upon the territories
of the said united company, or of some of the princes or states de-
pendent thereupon.


And be it further enacted by the authority aforesaid, That nei-
ther the said governor-general and council of Bengal, nor the pre-
sident and council of any other of the said presidencies or settle-


u3




294


MR. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS.. [Dec. 17.
ments, shall have power to make any offensive alliance whets,.
ever, for the purpose of dividing or sharing any country or terri,
tory whatsoever, between or with the said united company and
any native prince or state in "India, without the express orders and
directions, for that purpose of the commissioners aforesaid.


And be it further enacted by the authority aforesaid, That the
said governor-general and council of Bengal, or any president and
council of any other of the said presidencies or settlements, shall
not make or enter into any treaty or agreement whatsoever, to hire
out to any native prince or state in India, any part of the British or
native troops serving in India under the orders of the said united
company ; nor shall make or enter into any new treaty or agree.
ment whatsoever, to or for the keeping up of any body of such
troops in any of the countries or territories of any of the indepen-
dent princes or states in India.


And be it further enacted by the authority aforesaid, That the
said governor-general and council of Bengal or any other of the
presidents or councils of the said presidencies or settlements in
India, shall not appoint to, or employ in any office, place, or station
whatsover, any person whatsoever, native or British, who bath
been or shall be removed from any office, station, or place what-
sover, for any misdemeanour or other offence, without authority
for that purpose first had and obtained from the said commis-
sioners.


And be it further enacted by the authority aforesaid, That it
shall not be lawful for the said governor-general and council of
Bengal, or any president and council of any other of the said pre-
sidencies or settlements in India, or any collector of revenue, or
chief or other member of any provincial or subordinate settlement
in India, to let or rent any farm of land, or other thing whatsoever,
to any Banian, native steward, or other native servant whatsoever,
of any governor-general, president, or member of any council, col-
lector of revenue, or of any officer in the army, or of any judge in
the supreme court, or of any civil servant of the said united company;
and all contracts and agreements made contrary to this act, with
any such Banian, native steward, or native servant, for the purpose
of letting or renting any farm of land, or of other thing whatsoever,
shall be deemed and taken to be for the account of the principal,
or person in whose service such Banian, native steward, or native
servant is ; •and such Banian, native steward, or native servant,
shall account to the said united company for the profits made by
such farm of land or other thing ; which profits shall and may be
recovered from such principal, or person in whose service such Ba-
hian, native steward, or native servant was, at the time when such
contract or agreement was made or entered into. .


And be it further enacted by the authority aforesaid, That from
and after all monopolies, rights of pre-emption, or pre-
ferences, by any authority, or upon any pretence whatsoever, of
any commodities or goods in any of' the said united company's set-
tlements in India, shall be, and are hereby declared to be contrary
to law, and void.


And be it further enacted by the authority aforesaid, That no


1783.j
MR. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS. 295


debt or balance exceeding in consequence of any ad-
vance to be made for the making of any manufacture, or for the
purchase of materials, by any person making the same, or to any
husband:ne n or actual cultivator of land, for any raw commodity,
shall be recoverable in any court, or by any action or suit at law,
or by any compulsory or other process or means whatsoever, after •
the space of' from the time of making the said advances :
And that it shall not be lawful to imprison in any common prison,
or in any private house or out-house, any person whatsoever, for
or by reason of any such advances, within the said space of
or at any time afterwards.


And whereas in and by the said act of the thirteenth year of
the reign of his present majesty, it is enacted, That every present,
gift, gratuity, donation, or reward, accepted, taken, or received,
contrary to the true intent and meaning of the said act, shall be
deemed and construed to have been received and taken to and for
the sole use of the said united company. And whereas the said
provision bath been attended with inconvenience, inasmuch as it
has been pretended that the servants of the company have liberty to
take and receive presents, accounting to the said united company for
the same : Be it therefore enacted by the authority aforesaid, that
every such present, gift, gratuity, donation, or reward, accepted,
taken, or received, if' the same shall not be corruptly given to ob-
tain any place or other object, to which the person giving the same
shall not be entitled, shall be returned or re-delivered to the per-
son giving the same, or his representatives, according to the cus-
tom of the country ; and such person, or his representatives, shall
and may recover the same by any suit, action, or bill, or other
mode of proceeding whatsoever in use in the place where such gift,
gratuity, donation, or reward, shall be accepted, taken, or received,
brought at any time against the person to whom the same was
given, or his representatives; and if the same was corruptly given
to obtain any place, or other object, in or any way relating to the
said united company's service, then and in that case the person'
eiving shall not be entitled. to recover the same, but the same shalle
be to and for the sole use of the said united company, as heretofore.


And whereas it may happen, that neither the person giving such
present, gift, gratuity, donation, or reward, nor the said united
company, may sue for the same ; be it therefore enacted, that in
case the person giving the same, or the said united company, shall
not sue for the same within months, then the same shall and
may be sued for, and recovered, in manner aforesaid, by any per-
son or persons whatsoever, to and for his and their sole use and
benefit.


And be it further enacted by the authority aforesaid, That if
any person, from and after shall, contrary to the said act
of the thirteenth year of the reign of his present majesty, ac-
cept, receive, or take, directly or indirectly, by himself, or any
other person or persons on his behalf, or for his use or benefit, of
and from any of the Indian princes or powers, or their ministers or
agents, or any of the natives of Asia, any present, gift, donation,
gratuity, or reward, pecuniary or otherways, upon any account, or


IT 4




296
MM. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS. Mee. 1783.]


MR. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS. 29 7
on any pretence whatsoever, or any promise or engagement for
any present, gift, donation, gratuity or reward, and shall be there.
fore legally convicted in the supreme court at Calcutta, or in the
mayor's court in any other of the said united company's settlements,
or in any court of competent jurisdiction to_ try such offence in
this kingdom, such person shall thereupon'


-


And whereas some of the servants of the said united company,
have raised the rents paid by landholders to the said united com-
pany, and have farmed out the lands at new rents, by means of
which practices several ancient families have been dispossessed
of lands long in their occupation, and have been reduced to indi-
gence and distress. For remedy whereof, be it enacted and de-
clared by the authority aforesaid, and it is hereby enacted and
declared, That all lands and tenements within the provinces of
Bengal, Bahar, and Orissa, or in any territorites in which the receipt
and management of the revenues is or shall be under the imme-
diate administration of the said united company, or their ser-
vants or agents, not in the actual occupation of the said united
company, or by them leased or farmed out, in or immediately be-
fore the year shall be deemed and taken to be the estate
and inheritance of the native landholders and families who then had
and held the same, unless dispossessed by judgment of some com-
petent court, for some crime or misdemeanour, or non-payment of
their rent, and shall be from henceforward enjoyed by them, and
their heirs and descendants, according to the custom of the country
of or relating to the same, or where the same is had and held,
without any molestation, interruption, or disturbance whatsoever,
of or by the said united company, their governors, council, minis-
ters or servants.


Provided always, That nothing herein contained shall be con-
strued to deprive the said united company of the rent or tribute which
shall be clue or payable to them from such native landholders, their
families or descendants, for or on account of any such land ; or to
prevent the said united company from having or taking any means
according to the laws and usages of the said countries, for reco-
vering and obtaining payment of such rent or tribute.


And, for quieting the minds of the said native princes, and pr&
venting the corrupt practices which may arise from arbitrary alte-
rations of rent or tribute ; be it enacted by the authority aforesaid,
That the rent, tribute, service, or payment, paid or agreed to be
paid by the said native landholders, in the provinces or territories
aforesaid, to the said united company, in or immediately before the
year shall remain and be, and be deemed and taken to be,
the fixed and permanent rent, tribute, payment, or service, which
shall be payable to the said united company by the said native
landholders, their families, heirs, and descendants ; and that it
shall not be lawful for the governor-general and council of Bengal,
or the governor and council of any other principal settlement, or
the chief and council of any subordinate settlement, or any other
servant or agent of the said united company, to alter such rent,
tribute, service, or payment, upon any pretence whatsoever, or to
exact from or impose upon any such native landholder, his family',


heirs, or descendants, any farther or greater rent, tribute, service,
or payment, or any other char ge than is herein provided.And be it further enacted by the authority aforesaid, That it


and may be lawful for the governor-general and council of
Bengal to restore, and they are hereby authorised and required to
restore to every native landholder, his heirs or descendants, ac-
cording to the usage of the country, who shall have been removed
or dispossessed of his land or territory, the actual possession
thereof, upon the rent, tribute, service, or payment herein before
provided, if such native landholder shall be willing or desirous to
repossess his land or territory ; subject, nevertheless, to such farm
or leases thereof as shall or may have been made before the


and shall be still existing : and if such native landholder
shall have quitted or been dispossessed of his land or territory,
for or upon condition of receiving any pension or appointment in
lieu thereof, and shall prefer such pension or appointment, the
same shall, on no account, or upon no pretence


'


be discontinued,
withheld, diminished, or taken away, but shall be regularly paid
to such native landholder, his family, heirs, or descendants, ac-
cording as the land or territory was held, and to the terms and sti-
pulations made with such native landholder.


And be it further enacted by the authority aforesaid, That all
native princes and states in India, who having the management of
their own revenues, are engaged, by treaty or otherwise, to fur-
nish or keep up a body of troops for the defence or service of the
said united company, or to pay any tribute or sum of money in lieu
thereof, or to keep up or pay any body of English troops, or to pay
any tribute or sum of money in lieu thereof, .or who pay any
tribute or sum of money for the protection of the said united
company, are under the protection of his majesty, and shall not be
disturbed or molested by any of the servants of the said united com-
pany in the enjoyment of their rights according to the laws and
usage of the country.


And whereas some of the servants of the said united company
have heretofore committed unwarrantable acts in and relative to
the territories and revenues of the native princes and states under
the said united company's protection ; be it further enacted by the
authority aforesaid, That all and every of the servants of the said
united company, civil and military, shall be, and are hereby de-
clared to be amenable to the said commissioners appointed to ma-
nage the affairs of the said united company, and in and to all courts
of justice, (both in India and in Great Britain,) of competent juris-
diction to try offences committed in India, for all acts, injuries
wrongs, oppressions, trespasses, misdemeanors, crimes, and of-
fences whatsoever, by them or any of them done or committed in
any of the lands or territories of such protected native princes or
states, or against their persons or properties, or the persons or pro-
perties of any of their subjects or people ; whether the same were
committed under pretence of the order of any native protected
prince, or otherwise howsoever, in the manner as if the same had
been done or committed within the territories directly subject to
and under the British government in India.




298 MR. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS.
[Dec. 1.7?


And be it further enacted by the authority aforesaid, That ne
civil or military servant in the said united company's service, or
person in the service of his majesty, shall, by himself or any agent
for him, take upon himself to collect or farm, or be any way con.
cerned, directly or indirectly, in collecting or farming of any of
the revenues of such protected native princes or states.


And be it further enacted by the authority aforesaid, That if
any officer, civil or military, of the said united company, shall in.
vade or make war upon or enter with an armed force, in a hostile
or offensive manner, any of the territories of the native princes or
states in India, not under the protection of his majesty and the
said united company, without .


express orders in writing from the
governor-general and council of Bengal, such person, upon con-
viction thereof in the supreme court of Calcutta, or in any mayor's
court, in any other of the said principal settlements, or in the court
ofKing's Bench, or in any other court which shall have jurisdiction
to try offences committed in India, shall be


And be it further enacted by the authority aforesaid, That none
of the said protected native princes or states shall have any other
native prince or state dependent upon him or them, any farther or
otherwise than as such other native prince or state shall have stood
bound or engaged to such protected native prince or state or on
before the year for the payment of any sum or sums of
money, rent, or tribute, or for furnishing or supplying some defi-
nite quota of troops, which troops shall not be required or called fior
without the orders of the governor-general and council of Bengal,
or president and council of some other principal settlement.


And be it further enacted by the authority aforesaid, That the
succession of the said protected native princes shall be directed
and disposed of according to the laws of the country, or to such
treaties as shall have or contain any stipulation concerning the
same ; and that such succession shall not be altered or disposed of
by will, or in any other manner, contrary to the laws of the coun-
try, and the faith of such treaties.


And be it further enacted by the authority aforesaid, That such
protected native princes or states shall not be permitted to rent or
take, or have any farm or lease of any lands whatsoever, of or from
the said united company.


And be it further enacted by the authority aforesaid, That no
such protected native prince shall be permitted to reside for more
than in any of the said united company's settlements,
unless, being expelled from or driven out of his dominions, he
shall take refuge in the said united company's territories.


And be it enacted by the authority aforesaid, That from and af-
ter it shell not be lawful for any servant, civil or
military, of the said united company, to have or be engaged in the
borrowing or lending of any money, or in any money transaction
whatsoever, or in the farming of any lands or revenues, or in the
buying or selling of any goods or commodities whatsoever, or in
any other transaction of commerce or business whatsoever, with
any such protected or other native prince or state ; and all such
transactions, and all contracts and engagements of or relating to


t783.]


MR. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS. 299


the same, are hereby declared ; and any person or per-
sons guilty of any such offence, and thereof convicted in the man-.
ner herein before last mentioned, shall be


And be it further enacted by the authority aforesaid, That it shall
not be lawful for the said protected native princes or states to re-
move or dispossess any zemindar, or other native prince, or land-
holder, nor to increase his rent or tribute beyond that which was
paid by such zemindar or native prince in the year nor to
farm any land at any higher or greater rent or tribute than the
same was farmed at or for in the said year nor to resume
any jaghire granted at any time before the year


And be it further enacted by the authority aforesaid, That all
zemindars, and native princes and states, who shall have been dis-
possessed of their lands and territories by at any time
since shall be restored to the possession and enjoy-
ment of the same.


And be it further enacted by the authority aforesaid, That the
nabob of Arcot, the rajah of Tanjore, or any other protected
native prince in India, shall not assign, mortgage, or pledge any
territory, or land whatsoever, or the produce or revenue thereof,
to any British subject whatsoever ; neither shall it be lawful for
any British subject whatsoever to take or receive any such assign-
ment, mortgage, or pledge ; and the same are hereby declared


and all payments or deliveries of produce or revenue,
under any such assignment, shall and may be recovered back by
such native prince paying or delivering the same, from the person
or persons receiving the same, or his or their representatives.


And be it enacted by the authority aforesaid, That it shall not
be lawful for any British subject whatsoever to have, receive, or
take any payment of money, produce, revenue, goods, commodi-
ties, or effects whatsoever, of or from any such native protected
prince, or any agent or servant thereof, for or on account of any
debt now due, or claimed to be due, from such protected native
prince, except such debts as were consolidated in the year
and allowed by the court of directors, and by them ordered to be
recovered, without proof first made, to the satisfaction of the said
commissioners, or such person or persons as they shall appoint,
that such debt was fairly and bone fide contracted for money lent,
or goods sold and delivered, or in some open and avowed course of
trade and commerce, and not as, or for, a reward for any service
done or performed, or intended to be done or performed, by any
such British subject, to or for any such protected native prince, or
for any other matter forbidden or prohibited to be made or done
by any law or laws now in force, or hereafter to be in force, or by
any order or orders of the said united company, or any order or
orders to be made by the said commissioners appointed to manage
the affairs thereof ; and an entry, with the nature and particulars of
the claim, and of the evidence in support thereof, shall be made
in the journal of the said commissioners, or in the minutes of such
person or persons as they shall for those purposes appoint, with the
opinion of the said commissioners, or such person or persons
thereon.




300 MR. Fox's EAST INDIA BILLS.
[Dec. 17.


And be it further enacted by the authority aforesaid. That all
disputes and differences whatsoever, now actually subsisting be.
tween the nabob of Arcot and the rajah of Tanjore, shall be ex.
ambled and considered, as soon as may be, by the said commis.
sioners appointed to manage the affairs' of the• said united com-
pany ; who shall, and they are hereby required; as soon as they
shall have sufficiently examined and considered the same, to send
and transmit such orders as shall appear to them best calculated for
the quiet and final adjustment and termination of such disputes and
differences, according to the principles of; and the terms and sti-pulations contained in, the treaty of one thousand seven hundred
and sixty-two, between the said nabob of Arcot and the rajah
of Tanjore, and to the orders and instructions of the court of
directors given to George Lord Pigot, late governor of Fort Saint
George, and to the arrangements made relative to such dispute
and differences by the said George Lord Pigot.


And be it further enacted, That the said commissioners shall,
and they are hereby directed and required to send and transmit to
the governor-general and council of Bengal, or the president and
council of Fort Saint George, or to or by such other person or
persons as they shall for that purpose specially nominate and ap-
point, fu41 and explicit orders and directions, not only to settle
and terminate the said differences and disputes, but also to take
into consideration and examine the present state of the affairs, reve-
nues, and debts of the said nabob of Arcot, and of the rajah of
Tanjore ; and to enquire into and ascertain the origin, nature, and
amount of all claims whatsoever on them by British subjects; and
immediately to make a full report thereupon to the said commis-
sioners; and to adopt, propose, or suggest such ways or means
for the liquidation and settlement of such debts as shall appear to
be well founded and contracted bong fide, (and not by any illicit
dealing, or in consequence of any breach or disobedience of the
said united company's orders,) and for the payment and discharge
thereof, by such instalments, and at such times, and in such man-
ner, as shall be consistent with justice to the creditors of the said
nabob and rajah, and to the service of the said united company,
and as shall occasion the least difficulty and inconvenience to the
said nabob and rajah ; and, as speedily as may be, to make a full re-
port of all their proceedings touching the said matters to the said
commissioners.


And be it further enacted by the authority aforesaid, That all
polygars, which shall or may have been dispossessed or driven out
of their lands or territories at any time since the year
shall be restored to the possession of the same, and hold the same
at and for the same, and no greater rent or tribute as such poly-
gars paid, or were liable to pay, on or immediately before


And whereas it is enacted in and by the act of the thirteenth
year of the reign of his present majesty, That the said gover-
nor-general and council, or the major part of them, shall have
power of superintending and controlling the government and ma-
nagement of the presidencies of Madras, Bombay, and Ben-
coolen, respectively, so far as that it shall not be lawful for any


1783.] MR. FOX'S EAST INDIA BILLS. 301


president and council of Madras, Bombay, or Bencoolen for the
time being, to make any orders for commencing hostilities, or de-
claring or making war, against any Indian princes or powers, or
for negotiating or concluding any treaty of peace, or other treaty,
v,rith any such Indian princes or powers, without the consent and
approbation of the said governor-general and council first had and
obtained, (except in the cases of imminent necessity, and of spe-
cial orders from the said united company, ) with power to the said
governor general and council to suspend any president and council
offending in any of the cases aforesaid : And whereas great dis-
putes have at different times arisen respecting the extent of the
said controlling power given to the said governor-general and coun-
cil, to the embarrassment and injury of the said united company's
service; for remedy whereof, be it enacted and declared, that
the said power given to the governor-general and council of Fort
William, of superintending and controlling the government and
management of the presidencies of Madras, Bombay, and Ben-
coolen, respectively, cloth and shall extend to all negotiations and
cases whatsoever, which, though they shall not in themselves be
the commencement, or orders for the commencement, of hostilities,
or the declaring or making war against any Indian princes or
powers, shall nevertheless be of any unwarrantable nature or ten-
dency against such Indian princes or powers, or shall be of a na-
ture and- tendency to create dissatisfaction and alarm among any
of them, and consequently provoke to bring on and occasion hos-
tilities and war, without directly importing or leading to the same:
and in all such cases, the said governor-general and council shall
have all the powers Of suspending, given them in and by the said
act of the thirteenth year of the reign of his present majesty ; and
shall enter on their minutes of consultation at large, the whole
nature of the case in which, and the reasons for which, they exer-
cise the said powers, and shall transmit the same by the first op-
portunity, to the said commissioners appointed for the manage-
ment of the affairs of the said united company : and if the case in
which the said superintending, controlling, and suspending powers,
or any of them, are exercised, be such as creates a reasonable
doubt whether the said powers apply to it, the governments and
presidencies of Madras, Bombay, and Bencoolen, are nevertheless
hereby required to submit and yield obedience to the acts of the
said governor-general and council, and to lay the case before the
said commissioners, for the determination thereof.


And be it further enacted by the authority aforesaid, That it
shall and may he lawful to and for the government and presidency
of Bombay, whenever and as often as any war against the said
united company, their possessions or dependencies, shall be ac-
tually commenced, or the danger thereof is impending and immi-
nent, in the north-west and western coasts of India, or in the ter-
ritories adjoining thereto, and in the neighbourhood thereof, or in
any part of the territories of the states of the Mahratta.s, to make
and conclude any treaty or terms of peace, truce, or cessation of
arms, with any of such Indian princes or states actually at war, or
about to make war, or for the amity, assistance, or alliance of au




302 MR. FOX'S EAST INDIA RILLS. [Dec. 17.
other Indian prince or states, the better to defend the possessions
of the said united company against such war commenced or
pending: Provided always, -that the said government and presi.
dency of Bombay do and shall insert, or cause to be inserted, in
all and every such treaty herein before mentioned, a clause or
provision that the same shall be null and void, unless it shall he
approved and ratified (within a certain reasonable time therein tobe named) by the governor-general and council of Fort William ;
and the said government and presidency shall, and they are hereby
required to enter on their minutes of consultation, at full length,
the occasion of and necessity for such proceedings, with the rea-
sons upon which they have acted, and the documents or vouchers(if any there shall be) for the facts alleged ; and shall transmit
the same from time to time, as they shall arise or happen, and all
propositions relative to the same, as they shall be made, to the
said governor-general and council of Fort William, and to the
said commissioners appointed to manage the affitirs of the said
united company, respectively ; and shall obey and follow, under
the pain of suspension, all such orders and directions thereupon
as they shall receive from the said governor-general of Fort Wil-
liam, until the same shall be altered or corrected by the said com-
missioners.


And be it further enacted by the authority aforesaid, That the
government mid presidency of Madras shall have the like powers
and authorities, under the same limitations and restrictions, in
case of war against the said united company, their possessions or
dependencies, actually commenced, or the danger thereof iru-
penditrY and imminent, on the coast of Coromandel, from
to on the coast of Malabar, or in the territories adjoin-
ing thereto, and in the neighbourhood thereof.


And be it further enacted by the authority aforesaid, That no
governor-general, governor, or president, member of council, or
other officer, civil or military, in the service of the said united
company in India, (whether such person shall be actually in the
execution of his office in India, or shall be absent therefrom in
Great Britain, or in any other place) or any agent, in Great Bri-
tain or India, of any protected or other native prince in India,
shall be capable of being a member of; or of sitting and voting in
the House of Commons : Provided, that every such person, ac-
tually a member of the House of Commons at the time of passing
this act, shall and may sit and vote for and during the remainder
of the present parliament.


And be it further enacted by the authority aforesaid, That no
person having been in the civil and military service of the said
united company, and who lath resigned or quitted the same, shall
be capable of being elected into, or of sitting or voting in the
House of Commons, at any time within after be shall
have been returned to and resident in Great Britain, or whilst any
proceedings in parliament, or any other public prosecution, shall
be depending against him for any crimes or offences alleged to
have been committed by him whilst he was in the said service:
Provided always, that such proceedings or public prosecution shall


CHANGE OF MINISTRY, &C.178.3•3 303


have been commenced before the expiration of the said space of
after the return of such person, and shall be finally de-


rmi i tehn ui the
thereof;


s I)pace after the after then of


the same shall not operate to
disable such person from being elected into, or fromtsitting or
ct eo w n


voting in the house of Commons, unless the delay in such pro-
ceedings, or public prosecution, shall be at the request, or through
;l ie default of the party prosecuted.


And be it further enacted, That all crimes and offences against
this act may be prosecuted in the supreme court at Calcutta, or in
the mayor's court in any other of the principal settlements in India,
or in the court of king's bench, or any other court in this king-
dom, which shall be established for taking cognizance of crimes
and offences committed in India ; and all the powers and autho-
rities given to the said court of king's bench, in and by the said
act of the thirteenth year of the reign of his present majesty, and
Dot herein otherwise provided for, are hereby declared to be ex-
tended to all the crimes and offences committed against this act :
and in all cases where the punishment is not herein appointed, the
court in which the conviction shall take place, shall appoint such
fine or imprisonment, or both, as they shall think proper, provided
the fine shall not exceed. nor the imprisonment and
may, in their discretion, superadd the incapacity of serving the
said united company.


CHANGE OF MINISTRY. — EARL TEMPLE'S RESIGNATION. —
ADDRESS TO THE KING NOT TO DISSOLVE THE PARLIA-
MENT. —THE KING'S ANSWER.


December 19.


ON 'Wednesday, the 17th of December Mr. Fox's India billwas rejected by the lords on a division of 95 to 76. It was
remarked, that the Prince of Wales, who was in the minority in
the former division, having learned in the interim that the mea-
sure was offensive to the king, was absent on this occasion. At
twelve o'clock on the following night a messenger delivered to the
two secretaries of state his majesty's orders, " That they should
deliver up the seals of their offices, and send them by the under-
secretaries Mr. Frazer and Mr. Nepean, as a personal interview
on the occasion would be disagreeable to him." The seals were
Immediately given by the king to Earl Temple, who sent letters of
dismission, the day following, to the rest of the cabinet council;
at the same time Ar. William Pitt was appointed first lord of the
treasury and chancellor of the exchequer, and Earl Gower pre-
sident of the council. On the zzd, Earl Temple resigned the
seals of his office, and they were delivered to Lord Sydney, as
secretary of state for the home-department, and to the Marquis of
Carmarthen for the foreign. Lord Thurlow was appointed high




304 CHANGE OF MINISTRY, &C.
[Dec 19.


chancellor of' Great Britain, the Duke of Rutland lord privy seal
Lord Viscount Howe first lord of the admiralty, and the Duke of
Richmond master-general of the ordnance; Mr. William Grenville
anti Lord Mulgrave succeeded Mr. Burke in the pay-office, and
Mr. Henrt Dundas was appointed to the office of treasurer of the
navy. 4k


The formidable majority in the House of Commons, who ad.
hered to the late ministers, after their dismission from his majesty's
service, made the immediate dissolution of parliament, in the
public opinion, an event almost inevitable. The passing of the
land-tax bill was a previous step necessarily to be taken. This
bill had been twice read, and on Saturday the zoth of December
was ordered for the third reading, but as the committee on the
state of the nation was to sit on the Monday following, the ma-
jority did not think it prudent to suffer this instrument of delay
to pass out of their hands, until they had taken some further mea-
sures for their security. On Friday the 19th, Mr. Baker moved,
that the House at its rising should adjourn to


_Monday; upon which
Mr. Dundas moved, that the House should only adjourn till to,
morrow. His reason, he said, for this was, that the land-tax bill,
which had this day been reported, stood for the third reading ;
and it was of the utmost consequence to the nation that it should
pass with all imaginable speed. Every one knew that on the 5th
of January great payments must be made ; and how could they be
made, unless the bill by which the money was to be raised should
pass before that day ? Did gentlemen wish to strike at the very
root of public credit? They could not surely desire that the
creditors of the public should be disappointed in the payment
of the interest due to them for the money advanced by them to
the public.


.!* The following is a List of the New Administration.
First Lord of the Treasury, and Chancellor of the Exchequer — Right Hon.


William Pitt.
Secretary of State for the Foreign Department — Marquis of Carmarthen.
Ditto for the Home Department — Lord Sydney.
President of the Council—Earl Gower (succeeded by Lord Camden)
Lord Privy Seal — Duke of Rutland (succeeded by Earl Gower).
First Lord of the Admiralty— Lord Howe.
Lord Chancellor — Lord Thurlow.


The above composed the Cabinet.
Master-General of the Ordnance—Duke of Richmond.
Attorney-General — Lloyd Kenyon, Esq. (afterwards Lord Kenyon).
Solicitor-General — Richard Pepper Arden, Esq. (afterwards Lord Al.


vanley).
Joint Paymaster of the Forces Right Hon. William Wyndham Gren-


ville (afterwards Lord Grenville), Lord Mulgrave..
Treasurer of the Navy — Henry Dundas, Esq. (afterwards Lord Melville).
Secretary at War — Sir George Yonge, Bart.
Secretaries to the Treasury — George Rose, Esq. Thomas Steele, Esq.
Lord Lieutenant of Ireland — Duke of Rutland.
Secretary to ditto— Thomas Orde, Esq.


I 7 831 CHANGE OF MINISTRY, &C. 305'


Mr. Fox said that no man could he more anxious than he
was to support the credit of the nation, and consequently
to provide for the payments which would become due to -
the public on the ctli of January; and if the adjourning to
Monday could have such an effect as to prevent the passing
of the bill before the 5 th of next month, and leaving the
exchequer empty, his honourable friend would be the last
Juan to make the motion then before the House; and he was
sure there was not a man then within hearing, could be so
absurd or so wicked as to give it countenance: but when gen-
tlemen recollected that the bill had only one stage more to
pass through in that, House, and that this was only the 19th
of December, they must laugh at the idea that delaying the
third reading till Monday, would prevent its passing till the
5 th of next month. Indeed, it might be attended with one
inconvenience, which however was not a mighty one; it was,
merely this, that the lords might possibly be kept two or
three days longer from their country seats and their pleasures.
But gentlemen would think it much better at this moment,
when such calamities were hanging over the country; when,
by a rash, inconsiderate, and dangerous measure, the parlia-
ment was brought, if report was to be credited, to nearly the
eve of a dissolution, gentlemen, he said, would think it much
hotter to subject the House to that inconvenience, than to
leave their country exposed to the dreadful calamities that a
dissolution would draw clown upon the nation. He confessed
he was struck with astonishment, that there could be found
in the kingdom a subject daring enough to advise his sove-
reign to so desperate a measure. He meant not to question
the prerogative of the crown in dissolving parliament, hilt
no one would, on the other hand, question the undoubted
right of that House -to call ministers to account for any
wanton or imprudent. exercise of that prerogative. No one
would say that such a prerogative ought to be exercised
merely to suit the convenience of an ambitious young man:
and he there in the face of the House declared, that if a
dissolution should take place, and very solid, substantial,
and satisfactory reasons were not assigned for it, he would,
if he should have the honour .of a seat in the next parlia-
ment, move a very serious enquiry into the business, and
bring the advisers of it to account. At present it would.
render gentlemen in some degree accomplices in the guilt of
a dissolution without cause, to stiffer the land-tax bill to go
out of their hands, until they should have taken such measures
as would guard against the evils which might be expected
from a dissolution.


VOL. II.


X




tto.


3o6 CHANGE OF INIINISTRY, &c. [Dec 19.
Mr. Bankes supported the amendment : lie said, that to dissolve


or not to dissolve the parliament was in the breast of the king,
and it was no bad symptom of the justice and propriety of his
majesty's choice of ministers, that in case of a dissolution, he made
an appeal to his people, to learn from the elections whether his
choice met with their approbation. Mr. Arden said, that he must
be a timid Man indeed, and unfit to be the minister of this country,
who should be deterred from a dissolution by a resolution of that
House upon a question of their own continuation or annihilation;
for they were not to be the judges whether the dissolution, sup.
posing it to have taken place, was or was not a wrong measure;
that question was to be determined by another House of Commons;
by whom it was possible the dissolution might be applauded instead
of being condemned.


Mr. Fox said he would not have risen again, if he had
not been in some measure compelled to it, by a strange doc-
trine which he had heard advanced by the learned gentle-
man who just sat clown, against which he would take that
opportunity to enter his protest. He would barely take
notice in the outset, of the indecent levity, to use no other
term, with which the learned gentleman treated the votes of
that House, which though he might not approve, he ought
to treat with a little more respect. But what he meant chiefly
to take notice of was the. expression, " that he must be a
timid man indeed, and unfit to he the minister of this country,
who should be deterred from a dissolution of parliament, by a
resolution of the House of Commons." He thought that the
learned gentleman, who had studied the constitution, ought to
have known that the voice of the House of Commons was the
voice of the people of England, at least as long as it did not
appear to be contradicted by the people. There was at the
learned gentleman's elbow, another learned gentleman (Mr.
Dundas) who had told him, that if there were petitions on
the table from every county, city, and borough in the king-
dom, still it was not from these petitions, but from the House
of Commons, that the sentiments of the people of England
could be learned. Without going that length, he would say,
that in the present case there was the strongest presumptive
evidence, that the voice of that House was the voice of the
people ; for, notwithstanding all that had been said against
the India bill, two petitions only, one from London, the other
from Chipping Wycomb, had been presented against it by
the constituents of any member in that House; and from this
it might fairly be inferred, that as to the passing of that bill,
the people of England were with that House, and that it spoke
their voice. Would the learned gentleman say, that he
would be a timid minister who should suffer himself to be


1783.] CHANGE OP IVINISTRY, &C. 307
deterred from dissolving parliament by the voice of the peo-
ple of England ? Possibly the learned gentleman might answer
in the affimative; but he would tell him, that he must be a
bold minister indeed, who should dare to despise the voice of
the people. Premature dissolutions were at all times dan-
gerous; but at this time they were so in a more peculiar
manner. How stood the country with respect to foreign
powers; how stood we with our dependencies ; what foreign
power would treat with a crovermnent in which there was no
stability, no permanency These frequent changes would
expose us to the contempt of foreigners, render us and our
government the laughing-stock of Europe, and reduce every
thing at home to a state of anarchy and confusion, that might
make this country feel all the horrors of a civil war, short of
bloodshed. Future governments might think themselves
Secure, when acting upon principle and for the good of the
public, when ambitious young men might rise up, and grasp-
ing at power, plunge into the most desperate measures to
obtain it. They might be assisted in this by secret influence;
and if they should venture to think for themselves, and refuse
to be the slaves or tools of advisers whom they did not see,
the same secret influence which raised them, would as easily
pull them clown. An honourable member said, that his ma-
jesty would appeal to his people for the approbation of his
choice of ministers, which he was to learn from the elections :
this he thought would not prove a very successful manner of
getting their approbation; however, upon the popularity of
that bill, which had been rejected by the lords, lie would build
his hopes of success; he was determined to meet a popular
election; he believed there was not a more unbiassed, inde-
pendent, or numerous body of electors in the kingdom than
those of the city which he had now the honour to represent,
and to those electors he would again offer himself; nor was


confidence.
afraid


in consequence of that bill, he should lose their


The amendment was rejected, and the original motion agreed.


December 22.
Soon after the Speaker had taken the chair, Mr. William Gren.


Ville requested the House would for a moment favour him with
their attention on a subject, which, though of private concern to
C
him individually, was more particularly interesting to the House.


ertain reports, he said, which had been for some days in circula-
tion, had been made the grounds of a resolution in that House,Which he understood had been since construed to relate to a noble


X 2




308 CHANGE OE MINISTRY, &C.
[Dec. 22;


lord with whom he was most closely connected in blood, (Earl
Temple ;) and as he also understood that some farther proceeding
was to be had that day on the same subject, which might possibly
be directed against that noble lord, he was authorized by his noble
relation to say, that he was ready to meet any charge that should
be brought against him ; and that he might not be `supposed
make his situation as minister stand in the way of or serve as a
protection or shelter from enquiry and from justice, lie had that
day resigned into his majesty's hands the seals of office with which
his majesty had so lately been pleased to honour him ; so that his
noble relation was now in his private capacity, unprotected by the
influence of office, ready to answer for his conduct, whenever he
should hear the charge that should be brought against it.


Mr. Fox said, that as to the propriety of the noble lord's
relinquishing his situation, he himself was certainly the best
judge : he knew why he accepted, he knew why he retired
from office ; but certainly no one had said that any reso-
lution would be levelled at the noble lord, and his lordship
must have been aware of this, for the nature of the trans-
action to which the reports alluded was such, as almost neces-
sarily precluded the possibility of bringing evidence that
would convict the noble lord, or any other person, of the
charge which naturally arose from the rumours. But though
this evidence was wanting, and though the noble lord had
resigned, still he was of opinion the House ought not to give
up the idea of going into .


a committee on the state of the
nation, in which a 'learned friend of his (Mr. Erskine) in-
tended to make a motion, which, without any mention of
the noble lord, would guard against the fatal effects of that
baneful secret influence that threatened the existence of the
constitution.


The House then resolved itself into a committee of the whole
House, to consider of the state of the nation, in which, after a most
able speech, Mr. Erskine moved, that the chairman be directed
to move the Ilouse, " That an humble address be presented to
his majesty-, humbly to represent to his majesty, that his majesty's
most dutiful and loyal subjects, the commons of Great Britain,
in parliament assembled, think themselves bound in duty humbly
to represent to his majesty, that alarming reports of an intended
dissolution of parliament have gone forth:-.that his majesty's
faithful commons, dutifully acknowledging the wisdom of the con-
stitution, in trusting to the crown that just and legal prerogative:
and fully confiding in his majesty's royal wisdom and paternal care
of his people, for the most beneficial exercise of it, desire, with
treat humility, to represent to his majesty the inconveniences and
dangers which appear to them, from a consideration of the state
of the nation, likely to follow from a prorogation or dissolution
of the parliament in the present arduous and .critical, conjuncture


1783.] CHANCE OP MINISTRY, &C. 309


Of affairs : the maintenance of the public credit, and the support of
the revenue, demand the most immediate attention : the disorders
prevailing in the government of the East Indies, at home and
abroad, call aloud for instant reformation ; and the state of the
East India company's finances, from the pressing demands upon
them, require a no less immediate support and assistance from
parliament :— that his majesty's faithful commons are at present
proceeding with the utmost diligence upon these great objects of
government, as recommended to their attention by his majesty's
gracious speech froth the throne, but which must necessarily be
frustrated and disappointed by the delay attending a dissolution,
and most especially the affairs of the East Indies, by the assembling
of a new parliament, not prepared, by previous enquiry, to enter,
with equal effect, upon an object involving long and intricate
details, which his majesty's faithful commons have investigated,
for two years past, with the most laborious, earnest, and unre-
mitting attention : — that his majesty's faithful commons, deeply
affected by these important considerations, impressed with the
highest reverence and affection for his majesty's person, and anxious
to preserve the lustre and safety of his government, do humbly
beseech his majesty, to suffer his-faithful commons to proceed on
the business of the session, the furtherance of which is so essen-
tially necessary to the prosperity of the public ; and that his ma-


jesty will be graciously pleased to hearken to the advice of his
faithful commons, and not to the secret advices of particular per-
sons, who may have private interests of their own, separate from
the true interests of his majesty and his people."


The language used by the partizans of the new administration,
in the debate on the 1 9th, and their eagerness in pressing the
third reading of the tax bills, left no room to doubt of their inten-
tion to dissolve the parliament as soon as that necessary step was
secured. But on this day there appeared some. marks of inde-
cision, at least, if not of a total desertion of that design ; and this
change in the counsels of government was supposed to have been
the real cause of the sudden resignation that had been just an-
nounced to the House. Mr. Dundas, who was soon after made
treasurer of the navy, and Mr. Bankes the private confidential
friend of the chancellor of the exchequer, assured the committee
that there was no intention in government to interrupt the present
proceedings of parliament, either by dissolution or prorogation ;
and the latter gentleman particularly added, that he had authority
from his friend to declare, that if such, a measure should be pro-
posed in his majesty's council, he would oppose it ; and if it should
be carried against his opinion, lie would immediately resign his
office.


Mr. Fox begged that gentlemen would excuse him, if, not-
withstanding the positive assurances that had been given by
the two last speakers, be still continued of opinion that the, ad-
dress ought to be carried. He had a great deal of reliance
upon the honour and integrity of the right honourable gentle-


• X3




310
CHANGE OF MINISTRY, &C.


[Dec. 22.
man alluded to ; though he could not say he had much depen-
deuce upon his steadiness ; for to see men on one day accept-
ing official situations, and the next day resigning them, afford-
ed very little hope of that stability which at all times, but more
particularly in the present, was necessary to give effect to any
establishment that it should be thought proper to propose.
But the very means by which the power of the present advisers
of the crown had been obtained, might deprive them of it:
that secret influence, which had made them ministers, might
in the end operate to their downfal. The resignation of a
noble lord, which had been that day announced to the House,
had very little weight with him; it could not make him re-
nounce any one measure that he had in contemplation before
he heard of that event; nay, if it should have any influence at
all upon him, it would be to make him think the address still
more necessary, for he looked upon that noble lord as more
dangerous now, than when he held an ostensible situation in
government. When he was a minister of the crown, he was
responsible for his conduct, and for the advice he should give;
but now being out of office, he might, as a peer of parliament,
avail himself of that character, and, unperceived, whisper an
advice to his sovereign, that might in a moment produce those
events, which the right honourable gentleman, not now a
member of this House, was willing to pledge himself should
never be brought about through his means. It was impossible,
therefore, for him to consent that the address should be with-
drawn ; because lie ought not in duty to suffer, as far as lay in
hint as an individual member of that House, any thing to be
left undone which might prevent all those calamities which
must necessarily be the consequence of a dissolution of parlia-
ment. Not one argument had been urged to induce him to
think that the address ought to be withdrawn : indeed no one
had attempted to adduce any such argument; and as he saw
the address was in every syllable of it unexceptionable, and
that it was not opposed from any quarter of the House, he cer-
tainly was of opinion that it ought to be carried. He declared
that he meant no disrespect to the right honourable gentleman
who had lately been placed at the head of affairs, in refusing
to take his word that the parliament -would not be dissolved; as
far as that gentleman was concerned, he would readily take
his word : but in reality, if he himself were now in the situation
which the right honourable gentleman filled, knowing as much
as he did know of the power of secret influence, he would
not ask any man to take his word ; because he did not know
but at the very moment when he might be declaring that the
parliament would not be dissolved, that very measure might be
resolved upon in consequence of some secret advice, of which


1783.] CHANGE OF MINISTRY, &C. 3I I


he might know nothing until he felt the effects of it. The
right honourable gentleman no doubt meant to keep his word;
but if he should find that by a. prevaleney of secret influence,
the dissolution of parliament should hereafter, unknown to him,
be resolved on, it would be a very small satisfaction indeed to
the public, amidst the sufferings which such a measure would
bring upom them, that the right honourable gentleman meant
well, and had been himself deceived. It was the duty of the
committee to adopt a measure which would guard the consti-
tution against the baneful consequences of secret influence, and
banish it for ever from about the throne.


Mr. Bankes said, that after such a promise as he had made in the
name of his right honourable friend, the committee might rest as-
sured, that if' any idea of a dissolution, or prorogation of parliament
should be seriously entertained any. where, his right honourable
friend would unquestionably do what the right honourable gentle-
man over against him would most certainly do in a similar case,
he would resign.


Mr. Fox said, that this could not be pressed upon the com-
mittee as a reason that should induce them to give up the ad-
dress. He had not a doubt but the right honourable gentle-
man would act properly and spiritedly on the occasion ; but
what compensation would his resignation be to the public, for
the evils which a dissolution would bring upon them ? There
was not a moment to be lost; the delay of a day might be at-
tended with the most serious consequences; and therefore he
hoped that a very short adjournment, if any at all, would take
place. The gentlemen who had sacrificed their domestic en-
joyments at this season of the year to their regard for the con-
stitution, he hoped would complete the great work they had so
well begun.


It was at length resolved, without a division, that the address, as
proposed by Mr. Erskine, should be presented to the king by the
whole house.


December 24.
The House of Commons went up to St. James's, and his majesty


being seated on the throne, the Speaker presented their address,
to which his majesty returned the following answer:


" Gentlemen, It has been my constant object to employ the au-
thority entrusted to me by the constitution, to its true and only
end, the good of my people; and I am always happy in concurring
with the wishes and opinions of my faithful commons. I agree with
you in thinking that the support of the public credit and revenue
must demand your most earnest and vigilant care. The state of
the East Indies is also an object of as much delicacy and importance


4




3 12 CHANGE OF MINISTRY, 8L- C. [Dec. 24. 5783.]


STATE OF THE NATION. 313


as can exercise the wisdom and justice of parliament. I trust you
will proceed in those considerations with all convenient speed, after
such an adjournment as the present circumstances ma y


bt3o
, anyqu ire ; and I assure you I shall not interrupt your m eetingexercise of my prerogative, either of prorogation or dissolution."


The Speaker having read the said answer to the House,


Mr. Fox said, that though by his majesty's answer to the ad-
dress, the House had assurance that they should not be pre-
vented from meeting again by either a prorogation or dissolu-
tion of parliament, still the assurance went no farther than the
meeting after the recess. His majesty's present ministers had
been, it seemed, driven from their intention to dissolve the
parliament; none of them had been found daring enough to
advise his majesty to take so desperate a step ; but how soon
after the next meeting they might venture so to do, he could
.not foresee; they were resolved however to prevent the House
as long as they could from proceeding to business ; for by
moving writs at present, they would make such a number of
vacancies in it, that would furnish themselves with an argu-
ment against proceeding early to business; for they would have
it in their power to say, that it would not be decent to proceed
during the absence of so many persons as had been sent to an
election. The state of the country, however, would not admit
of a long recess, for ns the present ministers could not stand
long, (and indeed to talk of the stability and permanency of their
government would only be to laugh at and insult them,)itwould
be necessary to move for another set of writs after the holidays
in the room of those who, on the formation of another minis-
try, should vacate their seats. Therefore, in order to prevent
the calamities that were likely to befit' the country and
threaten the constitution, he would propose that the recess
should be as short as possible; he thought it could not well be
for less than a fortnight, and therefore he was of opinion that
the House should adjourn first to Friday, when he understood
it would be necessary to meet again for the purpose of moving
some writs, and then to the 8th of January. It might be said,
that knowing as he did that the ministry could not stand long,
this was spewing himself impatient to be restored to office: he
did not know that he should snake one of the next administra-
tion, but he confessed that he was impatient that the sense of
that I-louse might be soon taken OD the present ministers ; that
they might soon learn, either that they had the confidence of
the House, without which no ministry could last, or that they
had not; this was highly necessary to the public good, and
therefore the sooner the people should have a stable govern-
ment, let it be composed of whom it might, the better. He


talked of the weakness of young men in accepting offices under
the present circumstances of affairs, and he mentioned their
youth as the only possible excuse for their rashness. How-
ever, as they came in the avowed champions of the House of'
Lords against the sense of the House of Commons, it would be
necessary to proceed as early as possible in the business on
which the committee on the state of the nation was to sit, and
to take such steps as should be thought prudent and salutary,
to guard against the evils that might be apprehended from the
secret influence to which the new ministers were not ashamed
to owe their own situations. They did not seem to understand
a pretty broad hint from that House, how improper it would
be for them to come into power ; it would, perhaps, require a
broader one to convince them of the necessity of retiring,-and
therefore it might be proper to come to some pointed resolu-
tion after the holidays, in order to secure the House against a
dissolution; he was of opinion, therefore, that they ought not
to adjourn beyond the 8th of January.


The house then went into the committee on the state of the
nation. Upon the motion of Lord Beauchamp, the chairman was
directed to move the House, and it was resolved accordingly, " That
the commissioners of the treasury ought not to give their consent
to the acceptance of any bills drawn, or to be drawn from India,
until it shall be made to appear to this House, that sufficient means
can be provided for the payment of the same, when they respective-
ly fall due, by a regular application of the clear effects of the corn-
pany, after discharging in their regular course the customs and
other sums due to the public, and the current demands upon
the company, or until this House shall otherwise direct." It was
next resolved, on the motion of the Earl of Surrey, " That an ad-
dress be presented to his majesty, that he will be graciously pleased
not to grant the offices of chancellor of the duchy of Lancaster, for
any other term than during pleasure, before the zoth of January
next." After these motions had passed Mr. Fox said, that he
would not press the adjournment to the 8th, but would move that
the committee do sit again on the tzth of January next.


MR. Fox's MOTION FOR RESUMING THE COMMITTEE ON THE
STATE OF THE NATION.


janUary I2. 178 4.


THE expectation of the public was now fixed with great anxiety
on the meeting of parliament after the recess. A contest be-


tween the-executive government and the House of Commons was a




314


STATE OF THE NATION.
[Jan. 1 2.


spectacle, that, since the accession of the present famil3Zeute
nill."throne, bad not been exhibited in this kingdom ; and many


stances concurred to render the present peculiarly interesting and
important. The matter in dispute .


was of the very essentials of the
constitution, and could not be decided without considerably affect.
ing its bias. In defence of the authority of the House of Commons,
were ranged the united abilities of two powerful parties, long exer-
ciscd by mutual contests in all the arts of political warfare. The
champion of prerogative, was a person not less distinguished by


uhis splendid talents, and the unexampled rapidity of his rise to
power, than by the courage and perseverance he had already de.
monstrated in the cause lie now stood foremost to support. By the
natural effects of ministerial influence upon the House of COM.
moons, a sufficient number of members joined the new administra-
tion, to make their amount nearly equal in point of votes to those
in opposition. The inferiority, both in this and some other respects,
under which the minister laboured, was perhaps more than balanced
by his being obliged to act on the defensive only ; a situation of
infinite advantage, when combined with the power to chuse his own
moment of shifting the scene of battle, by an appeal to the people.
It was reasonably to be expected, that they would range themselves
on that side with which their own weight and importance in the
state was necessarily connected ; and the only hopes he could en-
tertain of drawing them from their natural interest was, by excit-
ing a jealousy of the designs, and of the dangerous strength and
power of his adversaries. This had been done with extraordinary,
and almost incredible industry, and with a success still more ex-
traordinary. Every advantage, therefore, gained by Opposition,
every point they carried, became a fresh cause of suspicion to the
people; and the minister, by a judicious choice of his ground, had
always the chance of putting his adversaries in the wrong, in their
attacks upon him.


In this state of things, both Houses met on the t ath of January
1784. As soon as the Speaker had taken the chair, Mr. Fox, in
order to get possession of the House, and to prevent any other bu-
siness from being brought forward by the minister, before certain
resolutions that had been prepared, were discussed in the committee
of the state of the nation, moved for the order of the day. He was
here interrupted by the new members who were brought up to be
sworn ; and as soon as that business was over, the chancellor of the
exchequer rose at the samemoment with Mr. Fox, declaring he had
a message to deliver from the king. A great clamour immediately
arose in the House, who should be heard first; which was at length
ended, by the Speaker's deciding in favour of Mr. Fox. The ques-
tion, whether the House should resolve itself into a committee on the
state of the nation, was then debated. The grounds on which this
was opposed by the minister and his friends, were the violent and
unprecedented measures adopted by the committee on a former oc-
casion, and the little probability that appeared, from the present
temper of the House, that their proceedings would in future be con-
ducted with less violence and passion. As parliament stood pledged,
as well from the duty they owed their country, as by their Own 50"


1784.]


STATE OF THE NATION. 315
!cum declarations, to direct their attention without delay to the
affairs of the East India Company, Mr. Pitt implored the House to
postpone, at least for a short time, the introduction of measures, that
might retard or throw any difficulties in the way of this important
consideration. He said, he was then ready to bring forward his
plan for the better regulation of the company's affairs; that he
challenged a comparison between his, and the bill lately rejected
by the lords ; and that he desired to stand or fall by the merits or
demerits of the measures he should propose. In answer to these
arguments,


Mr. Fox, rose and said :— It is, Sir, without much pro-
priety that the right honourable gentleman deprecates harsh
terms and censure upon ministers, when he has so long and
with so much asperity attacked those who now sit on this side
the House. It is rather unjust and partial in him to depre-
cate that in others which he has so profusely practised himself;
but he may be assured that I shall not deal much in asperity
and crimination. I shall endeavour to discharge my duty whe-
ther I am here, or at the other side of the House with perfect
candour and 1i:finless. I wish not to give any delay to the
India business. It is the duty of the House to go into the dis-
cussion of it without loss of time, and I wish them to go to it
as soon as it is possible for them to go to it with any probabi-
lity of success. To do that, we must go to it with freedom,
we must go to it unembarrassed, and that I aver we cannot do,
while thZ danger of a dissolution of parliament hangs over our
heads. That we are under this danger, is clear from the whole
of the conduct of ministers since they came into office. The
answer of the throne to the address clearly speaks this language
to the House: " If you dare to assert an opinion of your own,
nay if you do not without any argument or reason change your
sentiment on this ground, you shall be dissolved ; but if you
do change your opinion, if you do support the ministers of the
day you may live—Long life and prosperity• to the present
parliament !"


The right honourable gentleman had called himself the mi-
nister of the crown, and never, perhaps, was a name given with
more propriety, for he was the minister of the crown, —at least
he was not the minister of the House of Commons. If he was
not the minister of the crown or rather of the advisers of the
crown, he was not the minister of the country. But it was
said—what—would you interfere with the prerogative of the
crown? It is the prerogative of the crown to dissolve the par-
liament. Now, it had been denied by many great lawyers that
there was a prerogative of the crown to dissolve the parliament
during a session, and while business and petitions were pend-
ing. Of this, however, he was certain, that there had not been




316 STATE OF THE NATION. [Jan.
an instance since the Revolution, of any such exercise of the
prerogative, if it did exist. Amidst all the contentions of par_
ty since that glorious period, the parliament had never been
dissolved during the business of a session. In the reigns of
the miserable family of the Stuarts this sort of violence was
not uncommon. Charles I. had-done it; Cluirles II. had done
it; James II. had done it; and it was remembered, —he hoped
engraven on the minds of Englishmen,—that when this vio-
lent measure was last perpetrated, which was as he said by
James- II. that monarch had not been allowed to meet another.
He dissolved 'one parliament in the middle of a session, and
it put a period to his violations of the constitution and to his
reign. Great authorities, as he had said, had declared it as
their opinion, that the crown did not possess this prerogative.
Lord Somers, for instance, in a pamphlet which he published,
asserted the doctrine; and he quoted Lord Somers, because
he was said to be the type of him who now held the seals. To
be sure, there were points in which the resemblance was pecu-
liarly striking. In some, however, it failed, as in the particu-
lar of his succeeding to the seals after they had been held by a
jobbing commission. This was an imputation which the
rankest enemies of the late commissioners could not alledge
against them, as was another to which the first commission
was subject, that delay had been grievous to the suitors. This
was an imputation which would not be brought against the
late commissioners, whose regularity, alacrity, judgment and
fairness, had been the subject of universal praise. Whether
it might not be ascribed to others more pompously held forth
as the patterns of Lord Somers, he could not say. But the pre-
sent holder of the seals was like this great character, for Lord
Somers was remarkable for the affability, the mildness, the po-
liteness of his manners; he was all gentleness and condescen-
sion ; active and indefatigable in the performance of his
duties ; burning with the love of liberty, and zealous in the
cause of the people. These, undoubtedly, were the pecu-
liar characteristics of the present holder of the seals ; and
be, no doubt, imitating the great example of his archetype,
equally inflamed with the sacred enthusiasm of liberty, would
stand up and declare, that it was not consistent with the king's
prerogative to dissolve the parliament during the sitting of a
session. Lord Somers supported this opinion on the act of
King Richard H. Mr. Fox said he could not go with him
that length : he was not lawyer enough to enter 'on the sub-ject; but he did think that the necessity must be great indeed,
which could justify the advisers of the crown in a measure so
violent and alarming as that at the best must be.


It was for the purpose of moving a very necessary. and pro-


f 7 84.]


STATE OP THE NATION. 317


per resolution to guard themselves against this danger, that
l ie was anxious to go into the committee : but, says the ho-
hourable gentleman, it is not right to disturb government ;
we ought not to have opposition, " delirant re es, pleciuntur
^iclLivi;" if he might be permitted to give the political, instead
of the direct and classical meaning of this text of Horace, he
should say it was that the ministers of the king go mad, and
the people suffer for it. He had no wish to make the situa-
don of ministers unpleasant to them ; but he desired at the
same time that their own situation should be secure. He de-
sired that they might go into the committee to make it im-
practicable for ministers to dissolve the parliament. He
knew that this had been thrown out as the design of minis-
ters, to intimidate the House, that they meant to do this.
How had their implicit panegyrist said, if there was not
majority they would go down again to the people ; they would
appeal to the people ; and they stood better with the people
than their opponents, — a story of which he did not believe
one word. He fancied that this measure might depend on
the issue of the question of that day,—he believed that if mi-
nisters found the House of Commons firm in their integrity,
— that they were not to be shaken by any, or by all the
temptations which were held out, then he would be bound to
say there would be no dissolution, thr they would not ven-
ture to meet the consequence of a House of Commons ren-
dered so vigorous by honesty and determination : but if they
found them waver, if they found them timorous and unsettled,
or corrupt and tractable, dispositions which lie did not be-
lieve the present House of Commons would ever be found in,
then the parliament would be dissolved ; for though they
might gain a particular question, they would not think them-
selves sufficiently fortified without a dissolution : and if they
went down again to the people, he assured the House, they
would depend more on certain advantages in certain market-
able boroughs, than on the opinion of the people.


But why not suffer the right honourable gentleman to move
for his bill first, and go into the committee on the state of
the nation afterwards? For the clearest of all possible reasons.
Because, if they were suffered to pursue this course, they
feel the pulse of the House, and finding it is disagreeable to
them, the next day dissolve the parliament; whereas by going
into the committee, steps might be taken to guard against ab
measure so inimical to the true interests of the country.


The bill to be brought in by the right honourable gentle-
man, if he might argue from the resolutions, and ideas thrown
out in the public newspapers, was, in his mind, subject to in.:
finitely more reprobation than the bill lately thrown out. It




084.] STATE OF TUE NATION. 319318


STATE OF THE NATION.
[Jan. 12.


arrogated more influence, and it was an influence more dan_
gerous because less open and avowed. It was a secret, in op-
position to-a public, responsible influence. The bill infringed
on all the chartered rights of the company, for the menaced
violation of which he had been so loudly censured. It gave
to the ministers all the patronage of his scheme, but it perpe,
tuated the abuses which his bill intended to remove. With
every imputation of violence it had not the merit of efficacy,
for it went to the establishment of a distracted government,
the disunion of which would be its weakness. It followed Mr.
Dundas's bill in the creation of a third secretary of state, and
it did very little more than renew the bill of r 7


3o. It pos-
sessed all that was objected to in the late bill, without con-
taining anv of that matter which was commended. It was to
give an addition of patronage without energy, and of go-
vernment without unity ; it was impossible, in his mind, that
the House of Commons could agree to this bill, or to any
such bill, and he had too high an opinion of them to believe
that it would ever be carried into effect.


It was said, that he had got possession of the House by ma-
nagement, and that it was unfair ; he conceived it to be the con-
trary. This day was appointed for going into the committee
on the state of the nation, and in order to prevent confusion,
in order that it might not be made merely.what it had been
called, a question of strength, he had come down early to move
for the order of the day, that the House might come regularly
to a question which he intended to move in the committee.


But if the present ministers were disagreeable, why, it was
said, not move for their dismission ? He did not think this
was the precise way ; he thought it was more advisable to give
the most decided disapprobation of the principles upon which
they came into place; and that they had done. They had
declared those principles to be unconstitutional, and that they
had come in on terms as disgraceful to themselves, as they
were alarming to the country. An honourable gentleman
had rejoiced in his absence before the recess, and indeed it
was favourable to his repose that he was so; for thinking as
he did of ministers, wishing them well, and meaning to sup-
port them, itmust have been grating to him to have observed
the low and shameful means by which they got into office; he
had wished that the late bill had been thrown out by any
other branch of the legislature; this was really ingenious; be
never heard an obscurity more oratorically argued; but it was
this to which he in particular objected : it was thrown out
ostensibly by the House of Lords; but actually by the secret
influence of the crown. It was by means of secret influence
unconstitutionally exerted that this had been accomplished.


But it was said, what evidence have you of this besides that of
rumour ? To this he would say, that he had rumours so
strong, so substantiated, that it was impossible to withhold
credit from them. In every corner they met one. He and
his noble friends were ministers at that time, and they had no
authority to contradict the rumour. Those men who were the
authors, or given out as the authors of the rumours, were
in that House, or there were persons nearly connected with
them there, and they did not when called upon come forward
to contradict the story. All this was pretty strong evidence
that the rumour was true. But, to be sure, it was below the
dignity of some men to attend to rumours, or to contradict
them ; yet it was to be remembered that the House upon that
rumour had addressed the throne.


" But it was no new thing for men not in office to give his
majesty advice." Perhaps not; but it was a new thing for men
having given such advice to come forward, and use tile royal
name to influence votes. " 4 Oh, but this is nothing," say they,


if they avow their advice." To this he answered, that it was
something very material; for when any others than those who
were by their office and duty responsible, advised the king,
their acknowledgment depended on their precarious mag-
nanimity, a dependence which the constitution would not
respect.


An honourable gentleman (Mr. Powys) had talked of his
inordinate ambition. He confessed he was ambitious; but if
his ambition was inordinate, who, after a pretty long parlia- -
mentary attention, aspired only to the second place, what
must the quality of the present minister's ambition be, who
aspired to the first place, and who disdained subordination?
The honourable gentleman rejoiced, he said, that he saw
none of those in ate cabinet who brought on the American
war. He supposed he meant that he saw none of those in the
House, for it so happened, that the chancellor of the exche-
quer was the only minister in that House, and he certainly
was free from the American war ; but the honourable gentle-
man must see with strange eyes indeed, if he saw no members
in the present cabinet who contributed to the loss of America.
His eyes at least were different, for he could see several who
Were most deeply involved in it.


But the honourable gentleman still wished for more coalitions.
It had always been his idea, that there were, in cases of politi-
cal variance and objection, but two means to be used. The one
was, in case of delinquency, to inflict public censure, and where
that was not pursued, public oblivion. This had been his
motive in coalescing with the noble lord; but in so doing he
had lost the good opinion of the honourable gentleman ; a




320
STATE OF THE NATION'.


[Jan. tz.
matter very dear to him. He had many great friends, how.
ever, who agreeing with him in his idea, had their sentiments
on other topics, and who might say to him, " 6 What, would
you listen to the invitation of this honourable gentleman, and-
coalesce with men who support secret influence? Would you
coalesce with men who disdain to stand on the influence of
good opinion, on the sentiments of the people, on the con&
deuce of parliament ? Would you forget all the doctrines in
which you have been bred? Would you creep into office by the
back stairs, which you so loudly, and, .as we think, so justly
reprobate? Or, to take these men with whom you are invited to
join, even on their best plea ; would you make part of an ad:
ministration which stands on the House of Lords, in preference'
to the House ofCom mons? You who have constantly reprobated
the principle of secret influence; you who have always declared
that you could only pay respect to, or take a share in, that
government which flowed from the opinion of the ninny, and
not from the personal favour of the advising few; would you so
fur forget the habits in which you have been bred, as at last to'
coalesce with those who have become the instruments of this
accursed, abhorred secret influence ? We cannot believe phi
to be capable of such atrocious apostacy from all principle:"
This he imagined would be their language, and he thought,jthough he might not go so far himself, they would be perfectlyustified in this address to him. He was one of those who
imagined that nothing was so injurious as ,


that men should
conceive perpetual enmities to one another, because they had
been hostile in debate. This he knew was the principle pro-
pagated by the secret advisers of the crown, because there was
nothing which they hated so much as confidence and connec-
tion.. To destroy connection, and to prevent it; to separate
those who were joined, and to keep those asunder who had
accidentally differed, was their great object; for it was only
by dividing men that they could expect to prevail.


But, says the honourable gentleman, the minister is not
inordinately ambitious; for last year, in less embarrassing
circumstances than the present, he refused 'to become.-the
minister. It was difficult to say why, having refused last
year, he had accepted of a worse thing this. It could only
be reconciled on the principle, that a man having refused a
good thing, felt such regret that he dashed into the first bad
thing that offered. Perhaps he refused to come in last year,
because then the principle would have been


.
equivocal. 3 He


came in now, because in doing so he published a manifesto
exposing the principles on which he acted.


It was said to be a " trial of strength." It was no trial of
strength between the present ministers and those un his side


1784.] STATE OF THE NATION. 321
of the House. If it was a trial of strength, it was whether
this country was in future to be governed by a ministry sup-
ported by that House, or by the secret advisers of the crown ?
This was the question at issue, and he trusted it would be very
soon decided.


In regard to the prerogatives of the crown, if from the lit-
tle that he had read he might be allowed to state ark opi-
nion, those who had read more, and spent their lives better,
might be able to correct him ; but it was his idea,. that the
rights of the crown, as well as the rights of parliament,
were not always to be exercised, merely because they were
rights. For instance, it was the privilege of the House of
Commons to refuse supplies to the crown, and nobody would
dispute it; but it was like many of the prerogatives of the
crown, a privilege which could not be put into practice with-
out much confusion; for who was to suffer?_ The supplies
were granted to the king first undoubtedly ; but they came
to the people at last, and they must suffer if they did not
come. It was so with the prerogative of dissolving the par-
liament during a session; it was so with the right of the
crown to appoint ministers not possessing the confidence of
the people. The theory of our constitution consisted in
checks, in oppositions; in one part of our legislature bearing
up against and controlling another; but it was the practice
of good men to moderate the temper of the constitution,
and in this practice a happy medium had been hit on at the
glorious xra of the Revolution, temperate and accommodating,
the good effects of which we had experienced for near a cen-
tury; this was the road which many men, now on the oppo-
site side of the House to him, had set out in. He recalled to
their memory the case of Lord Carteret and Mr. Pelham,
where the first, a man of more ability than the last, was sup-
ported by the secret advisers of the crown ; but the Commons
properly addressed the crown to state that he only could be
a minister with effect who had the confidence of the people.
Would the Earl of Chatham have been brought into the
closet of the king? Would he have meanly condescended to
join with secret advisers, and have been made the dupe of a
wretched junto? How was he treated by that junto? The
moment he became formidable he was attacked; but, by
manly determination, he overcame the secret influence, and
the king lived to rejoice that he had conquered his preju-
dices. When it depended on secret influence, the govern-
ment never could be lasting, for it was the nature of jealousy
t0 be capricious. One would imagine that we could not be
jealous of .that person whom we ought only to despise, and
that on this principle present cabinet would be safe; for


VOL.




322 STATE OP THE NATION. [Jan. 12, 1784.] STATE OP THE NATION. ^ 2'


it was composed of men who were in general of that descriP.,
tion which folly itself could not be jealous of; but even they
would not escape; by and by they would be suspected in their
turn, and whenever they were established they would be de.
throned. But the present minister and his runners, boasted
that he had the complete power, and was enabled to offer
peerages and every thing which the crown was entrusted by
the constitution to bestow. Why had not we the favour,
says he? Because we had the misfortune to have the con-
fidence of the House of Commons. Why have the present
ministers got it? Because they do not enjoy the confidence of
this House. Would any man believe, that the Earl of Chat-'
ham was personally disagreeable? Surely not; it was because
he had the good opinion of his country. They now paid his
son a bad compliment, for they took him up because they
believed him to be unsupported. By and by, he hoped he
would become as just an object of jealousy as his great father
was, and he trusted he would:then act as he did. Party was
vulgarly said to be the madness of many for the advantage of
a few; but this was the advantage of it; that it gave stability
to system, and therefore he had always been a party man.
The secret advisers hate parties, not leaders. The question'
Was not who shall be the leader, but on what principles they
shall lead. It was a question therefore that differed from•all
other party questions; for it was a question of all parties
against these secret advisers — between the House and a dark


-junto. He • called on them therefore to go into the com-
mittee on the state of the nation, that they might prevent
their dissolution ; that they might not let the fears of death
perplex their fancy; and when they had come to a resolu-
tion which would effectuate this, they might then enter on
the India bill with security and spirit. — " But nothing had
yet happened to make the dissolution of the parliament
cessarv." No ! What did that signify ? What, but that some-
thing might happen, which might render it necessary. Let


,‘ •


its, said Mr. Fox, go into the committee and render it im-
possible. Let us preserve the beauty of our constitution;
of that happy practicable equilibrium which has all the efficacy
of monarchy, and all the liberty of republicanism, moderat-
ing the despotism of the one, and the licentiousness of the
other; that which was in theory proved to be fallacious, but
which has been since the Revolution, so pure as well as so
effectual. This was his object, and he called upon the House


•to accompany him to the committee.


After a warm debate, the House, at half past two in the morning,
divided on Mr. Fox's motion, that the orders of the day be now
read:


Tellers.Tellers.
dorMaitlandL is. Mr. Steele 1.


YEAS tMr. Byng 232— °ES t Mr. R. Smith j 593'
So it was resolved in the affirmative.
As soon as the preceding debate was over, the House, at nearly


three in the morning, resolved itself into a committee on the state
of the nation; in which Mr. Fox moved, " That it is the Opinion
of this committee, that for any person or persons in his majesty's
treasury, or in the exchequer, or in the bank of England, or for
any person or persons whatsoever, employed in the payment of
public money, to pay, or direct or cause to be paid, any sum or
sums of money, for or towards the support of services voted in
the present session of parliament, after the parliament shall have
prorogued or dissolved, if' it be prorogued or dissolved before any
act of parliament shall have passed appropriating the supplies to
such services, will be a high crime and misdemeanor, a daring
breach of a public trust, derogatory to the fundamental privileges
of parliament, and subversive of the constitution of this country."
Also, " That it is the opinion of this committee, that the chairman
of the committee be directed to move the House, that the bill for
punishing mutiny and desertion, and for the better payment of the
army and their quarters, be read a second time on Monday the
23d day of February next." The said resolutions being reported,
were agreed to by the House.


The immediate dissolution of parliament being thus far rendered
impracticable, two resolutions, of a more direct and hostile nature,
were moved by the Earl of Surrey., The first was in the follow-
ing terms; " That in the present situation of his majesty's domi-
nions, it was peculiarly necessary that there should be an admi-.
nistration which had the confidence of that House and the public."
It was objected to this resolution, that the name of his majesty had
been, perhaps accidentally, certainly very improperly omitted ;
and it was proposed by Mr. Dundas to amend the motion, by in-
serting instead of the words " This House and the public," the
following " The crown, the parliament, and the people." As this
amendment was merely proposed for the purpose of pointing out
the factious spirit of the resolution, it was rejected without a di-
vision. The second resolution moved by Lord Surrey, was to the
following purport ; " That the late changes in his majesty's coun-
cils had been immediately preceded by dangerous and universal
reports, that the sacred name of the king had been unconstitu-
tionally used to affect the deliberations of parliament ; and that
the appointments made were accompanied by circumstances new
and extraordinary, and such as did not conciliate or o-engae the
confidence of that House." The fact principally insisted upon
as the ground oft this resolution, was the rumour, respecting the
Communication made from the king to several peers, touching the
-India bill through Earl Temple. A warm debate took place upon'
Allis motion, in which the most pointed personalities were cast and


Y




3 2 4 MR. PITT'S EAST INDIA BILL. [Jan. 14•
retorted from both sides of the House. The coalition was branded
as a corrupt confederacy of two desperate factions, to seize upon
the government of the country ; and the India bill was represented
to -have been an experiment made by the late secretary of state,
with a view, if not to place the crown on his own head, at least to
raise himself to a degree of power superior to that of the sovereign,
On the other hand, the party composing the new administration
was described as a coalition, not indeed of parties, but of the shreds
and remnants, of the dregs and outcasts of parties; as a body
collected for the purpose of fighting the battles of secret and un-
constitutional influence, of* trampling on the power and dignity of
the House of Commons, and of establishing a government of cabal,
intrigue, and favouritism, and of destroying the very principles of
laudable ambition and honourable service in- the state. At length,
about seven o'clock in the morning, the committee divided, for
the motion 196, against it 54.


MR. PITT'S EAST INDIA BILL.


January r 4.


Tms day Mr. Pitt moved for leave to bring in a bill " For thebetter government and management of the affairs of the East
India company." His scheme proposed the appointment of com-
missioners by his majesty, from the members of his privy council,
who should be authorised and empowered from time to time to
.check, superintend, and control, all acts, operations, and concerns,
which related to the civil or military government, or revenues, of
the territorial possessions. Two members of the said board should
be the chancellor of the exchequer and the secretary for the home
department; the board should have access to all the papers of
the company ; and the court of directors should deliver to the
board copies of all the proceedings of both courts of directors and
proprietors; copies of all dispatches received from the company's
servants in India, and the instructions sent and proposed to be
sent to India, relating to the civil or military government, or re-
venues of the British territorial possessions. The court of di-
rectors should pay due obedience to the orders of the board,
respecting civil and military government and revenue ; the board,
in a limited time, were to return the copies which were received,
with their approbation, or disapprobation, of the proceedings com-
municated ; or proposing amendments if they found them unsa-
tisfactory. The board was fully to state their reasons, and also
their farther instructions, to be sent to India without delay. Should
the directors conceive any of the orders of the board to be extra-
official, in not relating to the civil, military, and financial govern-
ment of India, to which the bill was limited, they should app ly'' .
by petition, to his majesty in council, concerning such injunctiolE;


17'84.]
MR. PITT'S EAST INDIA BILL. 325


and the decision of the council thereon- should be final and con-
clusive. The nomination of the commander in chief should be
vested in his majesty, and that officer should always be second in
council. The king should also have the power of removing any
governor-general, president, and members of the councils of any
British settlements in India ; all vacancies in their offices should
be supplied, subject to his majesty's disapprobation, that might be
repeated until one was chosen whom he should approve. No order
or resolution of any general court of proprietors should have power
to revoke or rescind, or affect any proceeding of the court of di-
rectors, after his majesty's pleasure should have been signified upon
the same. Such were the outlines of Mr. Pitt's scheme for the_
government of India. A great and leading difference between this
project and the plan of Mr. Fox, recently rejected by the lords,
was that the former left the charter untouched, and the com-
mercial concerns of this corporation of merchants under the sole
management of' the proprietors themselves and the directors of
their choice. By the former bill, the entire transfer of the coin
pony's affairs to commissioners nominated in parliament, and the
permanent duration of their authority for a term of four years,
had occasioned great alarm, as creating a new power dangerous
to the constitution. The object of the present bill was merely
control. In supporting his own proposition, Mr. Pitt expressed
his high admiration of that part of Mr. Fox's scheme which r&
spected the zemindars, but he disapproved general indiscriminate
confiscation. He proposed, therefore, that an enquiry should be
instituted for the purpose of restoring such as had been irregularly
and unjustly deprived, and that they should be secured against
violence in future. These last provisions were not included in the
bill which he had prepared for the consideration of the House,
hut they formed a part of his general ideas for the reformation of
Itlia.— Mr. Dundas having seconded Mr. Pitt's motion for leave
to bring in the bill,


Mr. Fox rose. He said he wished to meet the right ho-
nourable gentleman's ideas, as it would certainly be expected,
with all the fairness and with all the attention in his power;
and he had too much regard for the honour of the House,
and for the public satisfaction, not to do every thing for bring-
ing in the bill or bills which had then been moved: but
sure he was, it would soon be obvious in what light the pre-
sent proposition must be viewed by the dispassionate -and
impartial. Is it, said he, less or more than the wisdom of
an individual, however exalted in situation, however distin-
guished by ability, however flattered by partizans, or how-
ever confident of his own unrivalled talents, opposed to the,
collective wisdom of this House, of the commons of England
In parliament assembled? I trust the propositions will be
considered exclusively in this light, and the fate of them pro-
nounced accordingly.


Y 3


I




3 26 Ant. PITT'S EAST INDIA BILL.
[Jan. 14.


Much has the right honourable gentleman struggled to fix
a comparison between this measure and the one adopted by
his predecessors before the holidays; and, indeed, in what-
ever he may think these two bills alike, they arc, and in my
mind they will appear to the world, essentially distinct. The
single feature common to both is the object to which they
both relate : the one leading substantially, effectually, and
permanently, to a regulation of the entire system of Asiatic
management; the other partially, imperfectly, and super-
ficially. Were I to give a schoolboy an exercise how he
might most effectually involve the affairs of the East India
company, is it possible for the invention of man to have bit
on an expedient so likely to answer that purpose? What task
could he better performed than such a task as the right ho-
nourable gentleman has now assumed, and in this mature and
polished state submitted to the consideration of the House?
Every degree of confusion and distraction which can be sup-
posed, is not merely unprovided against, but actually pro-
vided for in the bill now proposed. What were the regula-
tions or establishments required by the wishes of this House
and of the country ? Were they not, humanity to the natives
of that extensive territory, which has been wrested from its
original owners; safety to the whole proprietary of the greatest
trading company in the world ; the justice, equity, and li-
berality of the English law to all who participate of the Eng-
lish government; a restraint put on iniquitous contracts and
gross peculation of every sort; a system of responsibility
and obedience, that master and servant, in this strange and
absurd system, might continue no longer synonimous or
convertible terms? These things are necessary to the welfare
of the company and of this country: but what one of them
is secured by this bill ? Does it not insult the reflection of
every wise man who has at all considered the subject?
Does it not make a mock of that necessity which this House
has pronounced to be urgent and unavoidable? Does it not
disappoint the expectations of the public, who have long been
clamorous for a reform in a particular with which they deem
their own honour and reputation singularly connected ?


The right honourable gentleman sets out with his board
of superintendants, and endeavours to state a contrast be-
tween those of his appointing, and those who received an
appointment from this House; but I beg leave to tell him
that they are totally different. Need I point out that dif-
ference to this House ? The influence so new, so unprece-
dented, so perfectly unknown to the constitution, on which
he triumphed, and still triumphs so much in having detected,
is no other than has been authorised by several acts of par-


1784.] MIL PITT'S EAST INDIA BILL. 327


litunent for years. What is the power of the directors? Is
that constitutional? Will any man say that their power ever
interfered with that of the crown ? And is not this the iden-
tical power which his majesty's ministers and this House
would have transferred to a new board?


I do not know whether I heard the right honourable gen-
tleman perfectly or not; but I am sure I did not understand
him. The constitution at least of this extraordinary system
struck me as peculiarly absurd. He foresaw an appeal might
be sometimes unavoidable; and where is it lodged, but in
One of themselves; in a party concerned; in one who can-
not, in the eye of the law of this country, act fairly, because
acting under all the pressure of every person interested in
the issue of the plea. Legislatures have never appeared so
ridiculous as in forming laws which make no allowance for
the imperfections of human nature; for that which affects
the decisions of a man's mind in one case will certainly affect
them in another; and wherever the public good is connected
with his conduct, his agency ought to be as free from temp-
tation, and consequently as little liable to abuse, as possible.
How, then, are decisions on the affairs of the East India
company to take place where those affairs appear in any ease
involved? 'What impartiality can be expected from persons
who, if they act at all, are subjected to act on a very in-
terested plan?


A very great parade is made about the consent of the com-
pany. I will acknowledge that the bill I had the honour to
carry through this House, violated the company's charter
to a certain degree. The Stuarts thought themselves long
possessed of an hereditary claim to the crown and sovereignty
of these realms. They lived, they acted, and they died in
this conviction. It was found, however, by the investigation
of mankind, that all this was mere usurpation, and originated
in violence, or swim less honourable principle. The glo-
rious Revolution undeceived the world on the subject, and by
substantiating the real meaning of the royal tenure, held up
this important lesson to the world, that those charters which
any one part of the community enjoys by consent of the
whole, can only be valid so Long as it consists with the
good of the whole, and no longer: When, therefore, we
consider how much the public were sufferers, what obloquy
the country derived, how generally and sincerely the name
of an Englishman was execrated by the consequences which
resulted from the abuse of these charters, to have connived
at them would have been to have made this government,
this House, this country, the guarantees of every outrage
and species of venality and extortion, which fasten an eternal


Y 4




4,328 MR. PITT'S EAST INDIA DILL. [Jan.
stigma on those who acted so dishonourable a part. The
grand object, therefore, of those who proposed that bill, as
an adequate remedy for the infinite and palpable mischiefs,
was to establish some practicable and substantial redress for
a grievance peculiarly felt by the natives of India ; but at the
same time not a little affecting every one who wishes well to the
present situation of this country.


The right honourable gentleman piques himself much in
not having violated the charters, in having procured a sur-
render of what it was alleged others had violated, in having
obtained the consent of the company. But let gentlemen
be on their guard against this specious assertion. Will ever
this House, will ever the public at large consider the con-
currence of two hundred and fifty, as the deed of a com-
pany which at least consists of fourteen hundred? How this_
was gained is not easily reconcileable with fair and equitable
conduct. But be that as it will, there certainly is no great
foundation for triumph on the occasion. At least, if the
charters were violated in the one case, they were equally
so in the other; and with this specific difference, that by the
first the property in all respects is not only secured to the
company, but receives such a security, as is evidently an
advantage; whereas in the bill now proposed, the violation
strips them of what is theirs, not less materially, without
affording them any recompence whatever.


Much has been said concerning the control which is esta-
blished in this board; and the responsibility of the ministers
for the time being, is the only security which the public has
for the exercise of all their power. But arc these two powers
to operate? The decisions of this very strange board are
therefore, like all other acts of administration, accountable to
parliament. How ? Why; should they presume to go such
lengths, as may in any degree thwart the inclination of the
crown, the minister, or any secret adviser, their existence
is from that moment determined, and they are without far,
titer ceremony or deliberation dismissed. Is it natural for
men in such a situation as this to exert their talents inde-
pendently, to propose any radical establishment or effectual
redress? No; they know to whom they owe their situation,
and in proportion as they value themselves upon it, must
accommodate their principles and operations to that will on
which they depend, Was any thing like this imputable to
the measure which preceded the present one ? No attempt,
I trust, will ever be made 'in this to lessen the regard I have
for the noble Earl Fitzwilliam. I mean no affront to any
0gentleman, or Co state any comparison; but surely I sha ll•




I784.] MR. PITT'S EAST INDIA BILL. 329


not be told that this illustrious nobleman was in the least
degree to be influenced by any minister whatever.


Will the right honourable gentleman, will the public, or
will any description of men, however interested, deem their
interest more secure, their affairs less liable to mismanage-
Inert, or their patronage less obnoxious to jobbing and ca-price by the learned gentleman who may be secretary for that
department, than by those gentlemen whom I had the honour
to nominate to the board of direction in the bill which pre-
ceded this? Who are the most likely to be guided by the
partialities, or little mercenary motives of private interest or
private connection ; one man, however able, honourable, or
respectable, or a body of men, all equally eminent for their
amiable and excellent qualities?


The patronage of such a territory and so much revenue
must be considerable, and attended with infinite influence
wherever it is placed. - how was this disposed of by the bill
which this House adopted, but which the other rejected ?
Why, the power of appointing all orders of men in the
system of operation or new establishment thus proposed lay
in. the seven chief directors, to whom all the trust of the
company was committed, and in whom every post, civil, com-
mercial, or military originated. These commissioners or
directors were to reside at home; for what reason ? That they
might not only be under the control, but under the inspection
of this House. No very pernicious abuse could then prosper
or be indulged for any length of time. Complaints might
be investigated almost as soon as uttered, and redressed before
they could become very grievous.


But how does this matter stand by the new bill? The go-
vernment of India, after undergoing, to be sure, a most tho-
rough reformation, is still to remain as distant from Britain




r, • • -
as ever. The governor-general is to have the same powers
of interior regulation as he had before. Does not the very
Aspect of the system, as thus exhibited, bear a most promising
encouragement to all the various modes of intrigue, peculation,
and outrage, which have been heretofore in use in that most
miserable corner cf the globe .? Will succession and regular
gradation be easily established in all the various lines of con-
duct, in which it has been so long the habit of the place to
act without regard to order or merit? Ia is likely that these
abuses will be avoided at a distance which renders discipline
unpraeticable ? Flow, on such a Quixote-system as this, is a
governor-general to be recalled ? It is true, a principle for
this purpose is provided, but in such a manner, as, in my
opinion, is an effectual bar to its operation. - For the plan
proposed, and that of the present adminif:tration, is in nothing




33©


MR. PITT'S.EAST..INDIA BILL. [Jan.
more compatible than' . in the mode of their acting. Some,
thing like secret influence seems to pervade both the one ana
the other. The moment a governor-general is sent out, it
may be expedient. and advisable to supersede him, even be..
fore he is fairly settled in his government. But though this
were not the case, how is he certain of being admitted to act,
when he arrives, in the high capacity to which he is appointed?
Do not all the officers of state, whether political or military,
depend on the governor-general ? Will they not regard him.
therefore, as one, in whose official existence they are peculiarly
interested ? Will they not, should he chuse to be refractory,
strengthen his principles of disobedience ? Will not all the
sentiments of gratitude and inclination be on the side of giving
a negative to the orders from home, as has always been the
case ? The governor-general for the time being would be
more thanman, let him be Mr. Hastings, or whoever else it may
he, to withstand such potent temptation. But, surrounded and
fortified by a great variety of individuals in every department
of life, who owe their all to him, established in all pro-
bability on a system of his own creation, and possessed of in-
finite projects which he might think advantageous, it is not
the orders of a few men, empowered ill but a limited measure,
that will affect him. Such a Man, an authority adequate to
the object could only remove. This is no idle speculation.
The history of the company renders it explicit. The expe-
riment of the bill in question has been made, and left such
effects on the minds of the people ill this country, as must un-
doubtedly convince them of its inutility and absurdity. Be-
sides, who has not heard of the complaints Nyinch have been
made of irregular preferment, especially in the military line,
but also in the political ? We know all advancements arise
from what are called cadets and writers. These ever have
been sent out from this country in vast abundance; and on
the system now agitated that superfluity of persons which can
be of no use at home, may still be transported abroad. The
trade is likely enough to be continued, but with no sort of
emolument to the public, though individuals will undoubtedly,
as usual, continue to amass fortunes without any dread of
punishment or trial, whatever their delinquency may have
been. This, as well as every other consideration to which the
subject led, was a demonstration, that the system which had
produced so much mischief in the affairs of the company was
not changed for another, was not even changed for a better,
was in fact only patched, and patched in such an aukward
and clumsy manner as, in my mind, makes the new, in some
degree, worse than the old. For we are now arrived at that
time which renders it necessary to be decisive; and without


17•] MR. PITT'S EAST INDIA BILL. 331


measures of this description this country will soon be in such
2. situation as must render all measures ineffectual, unnecessary;
or abortive.


The bill adopted by this House went somewhat farther;
it proposed a radical change of system in the constitution
of the company. It did not place the government of India
out of the reach of parliament, by placing it out of the


u a It did not render the controlling power Mel-f
by placing the . patronage in the servants, but in


country.eet


the directors of the company. The consequence was, that
a plan of efficiency was established, and provision made for
all the exigencies to be expected from a scheme of things
so multifarious and involved. Every one in a subordinate
situation in that unfortunate country could, by that establish-
ment, look beyond the menaces of a governor-general, and
promise themselves redress in spite even of his monstrous in-
fluence and powers. The appointments and advancement in
all the various departments in the government and commercial
establishments of India, being in others than those on the
spot, or the immediate executors of the powers with which the
original direction were entrusted, would undoubtedly draw
along with it the independence of those whose situation arose,
not from any artful management there, but from what could
he advanced in their favour here. This capital regulation I
consider as effecting a perfect violation in the whole system,
which has been the occasion and cause of so much mischief.
Every India bill short of this must therefore be ineffective,
andlconsequently inadequate to the defects it is intended to


Where, then, is the abuse of patronage so much deprecated
by members on the other side of the House, as unavoidable
from the bill I brought in ? There is no abuse of that kind
whatever, which is not guarded against as much as human
sagacity can, as much as the wisdom and foresight of this
House could. The whole of this prodigious and invidious
trust is lodged with gentlemen of unblemished honour, and
independent fortunes, to whom few temptations can be power-
ful. The consequence is, that the patronage of the company
has at least all the chance of this circumstance : and is not
this a more rational ground of confidence to the public at
large, than any individual whatever? Let us suppose, but
for a moment, such a mode of government was realized, it
would be placing India on nearly the same footing with that
of Ireland. Who does not know how very disagreeable and
impracticable the duty of a viceroy of Ireland is, especially
under such vicissitudes of administration as have lately cha-
racterized this country? Within but a very few years this




33 2 MR. PITT'S EAST INDIA BILL. [Jan. 14,
fact has been strangely verified by all the various noblemen
who had the honour of sustaining that elevated station,
Which of them have not found it impossible to act under
ministers on whom they had not 'the completest confidence?
Will not this be the case.


with whoever undertakes the pray
tical part of the executive administration of Indian affairs?
Who knows but the same ship which carries out his commis-
sion, may also carry out his recall, or at least before be
reaches his destination, an edict may either be announced of
his incompetency, or a report for the purpose of defeating'
the very object of his appointment ? In that case, what ea
he do but refuse acting under people whose principles and
politics are so palpably different ? How, then, is this strange


5
unsettled habit to affect the policy and the commerce of India ?
Is not that very thing immediately reduced to a chaos? And
how, by such a policy as this, are the many gross improprie-
ties and absurdities which have been the subject of complaint
for years to be amended ? The evils are then without remedy,
and must, for all the present provisions, remain so.


Such, Sir, are some of the outlines of the system proposed
to this House, in plain and open contradiction to the mea-
sure which they have already preferred. What, then, is to
be the decision ? Can any man be at a loss to divine ? Cer-
tainly not. The House has already stamped the measure it
prefers with its approbation, and cannot adopt another.
They are' satisfied with their own determination, and will not,
on slight or superficial grounds, prefer another. The com-
parison in the progress of this bill with theirs is unavoidable,
and they must in the end adhere to a resolution which arose
from the closest and most deliberate discussion.


The bill of this House was strongly reprobated, because it
established an influence unknown to the constitution. This
I have often combated. It is now time, since all argument
is without effect, to try the force of assertion. It is what I
utterly deny; and I desire any one to point out in what single
particular any part of it will bear this construction. This
has often been asked, but none of the gentlemen on the other
side of the House have yet deigned to give me an implicit
answer. It never, at least, struck me in such a ludicrous
light; otherwise I certainly should not so strongly and re-
peatedly have avowed the contrary. It is, then, brought to a
test. Another bill, on very different principles, and possessed
of very different functions, is brought forward; and how does
it dispose of the influence which has been magnified and en-
larged to such an extent, in order to make it the bugbear for
a certain purpose? Does it not lodge the whole in the crown?.


1784.]
MR. PITT'S EAST INDIA BILL. 333


,knd who can be at a loss to see the meaning of this admi-
rable device ?


The last parliament, to their immortal honour, voted the
influence of the crown inconsistent with public liberty. The
•ips,ht honourable gentleman, in consequence of that vote,
finds it probably unequal to the great objects of his adminis-
tration. He is therefore willing to take the present opportu-
nity of making his court where he knows such a doctrine as
this never will be acceptable; and the plain language of the
whole flatter now is, that the patronage of India must be
appended to the executive power of this country, which other-
wise will not be able to carry on schemes hostile to the con-
stitution in opposition to the House of Commons.


Having thus far tried the relative excellencies of these' two,
bills, it may not be amiss to attend to the distinction which
this one affects to set between the commercial and the political
interests. But has it separated these two inseparable objects?
Does not the institution he states promise only to perpetuate
the very seeds of animosity and contention, which such an
innovation in the interior of the company's affairs would no
doubt engender? And to be sure the mode of settling this
matter is not the least curious particular of the whole, and
seems calculated only to render ridiculous what is incapable
of any other colouring.


I forbear going into the substance of the bill more at large,
as undoubtedly that will be more in point when the principle
of the measure comes to be disputed. A great variety of par-
ticulars incidentally mentioned by the right honourable gen-
tleman, however, are entitled to notice. I am aware how
much energy his eloquence derives from the use of particular
words, of which he certainly has a very choice selection.
Half measures has therefore been marked as the watchword
of the party, and undoubtedly it has its use, though not quite
so sounding and agreeable to the ear as confiscation, and
chartered rights of men, which admirably serve the purpose
of filling a period and pleasing the ear. But the first has the
advantage of the second in this, that it is true, and the other
is not. The history however of half measures is briefly this :
last year the right honourable gentleman was rather shy, and
refused to accept his present situation, from a very wary ap-
prehension that the House, which had dismissed him from
the service of the public, would not support him. All the
summer, it is more than probable, the game which had been
lately played at St. James's was going on. Private advice and
whispering in abundance prevailed at court, in order, if pos-
sible, to reduce the consequence of parliament, and get the bet-




334 AIL PITT'S EAST INDIA BILL. [Jan. /G
ter of that confidence which was the support of ministry, and
might still operate to a. farther retrenchment of the royal pre.
rogative. The young candidate for office on this account
still wished for a more favourable opportunity. He hail
formed his plot perhaps on this very bill. He therefore at
the opening of the session, apprehensive that we might not
be forward enough for his particular views, boldly took upon
himself the office of goading us on ; and then it was that he
exclaimed against every species of " palliatives and half mea-
sures." But I appeal to the House, if the measure now pro-duced could be entitled to any other appellation, but for the
right honourable author of it. Any other person who should
have produced such a plan, must, at least, have expected to
hear it branded as a mere palliative or half measure. In short,
after viewing the propositions of the right honourable gen-
tleman in every point of view, they strike me at least, as I
trust they will strike the House, as partial, incomplete, and
furnishing the company and the public with only an allevia-
tion instead of a remedy. The system of the minister at pre-
sent is founded on secret influence, and that system must in-
evitably terminate in public ruin.


January 16.
Mr. Pitt presented his India bill which was read the first time, and


ordered to be printed. He then moved that it be read a second
time on Wednesday next; upon which,


Mr. Fox said that as the right honourable gentleman had,
in his opening of the business, wished that gentlemen would
compare this bill with that which had been thrown out by the
Lords, he did imagine that in fixing a clay for the second
reading, he would have fixed on one sufficiently distant to af-
ford gentlemen time enough to make a comparison. When
he brought in the bill which had been thrown out by the
Lords, he was accused of having acted with blamable rapidity;
and yet he did not move that it should be read a second
time sooner than the seventh day after it had been presented:
and even then, the right honourable gentleman was pleased
to say, that this was shameful precipitation, and called for a
longer term : how inconsistent, therefore, must his conduct
be on the present occasion, when he would force the House
into the consideration of so important a bill as the present?
if he wished or expected that the House would give up their
former opinion, and turn their backs on their own favourite
bill to adopt another, it could not be supposed that this conver-
sion could be wrought by magic : it must be the Consequence


.1784.3
MR. PITT'S EAST INDIA BILL. 335


of persuasion and conviction that it was a better measure
than the former ; and this could not be known unless both
were compared, which could not be done unless time were al-
lowed for that purpose. He would, therefore, suggest to the
right honourable gentleman, whether it would not be more
proper to go into the second reading on that day se'nnight
than on Wednesday.


After a short conversation, Mr. Fox's proposition was agreed to.


January 23.


The bill was read a second time. On the motion, that it be
committed,


Mr. Fox rose with an intention to enter into the intrinsic
merits of a bill, on the fate of which depended so many and
such various circumstances of magnitude and importance.
He wished to consider them dispassionately, and with the
deference and candour which they deserved. He hoped no
person would suspect him of prejudice on a point of so much
interest, and which so materially affected the political con-
cerns of the nation, and the prosperity and happiness of so
vast a portion of the human race. This was, no object of
trivial concern; no question of light discussion; no subject in
the investigation of which the spirit of party should mingle.


The evils existing in the administration and government of
India might be digested under distinct heads. From the re-
ports of the secret and select committees it appeared, that,
the company's servants abroad, by a secret influence, cor-
rupted and abused to their purposes the proprietors and di-
rectors at home. It was no less evident that there was no
energy, or at least no sufficient vigour in the administration
of the company's affairs in this country. And it was equally
obvious, that there were no remedies for- those evils of various
descriptions, which were committed by the servants of the
Company abroad. These, said he, are the grand and leading
points of consideration in the digestion of a scheme of reform
for India, and which it was my object to correct in the bill
:which I formed on the subject, and which obtained the ap-


, probation and sanction of the House.
Let us now compare the bill under consideration in its va-


xions tendencies to correct these evils, and in its different re-
lations, to these objects. The bill under consideration, . then,
by continuing the influence and power of the proprietors , and,
,court of directors, by rendering the latter dependent on the
former, even for its existence, by avowedly leaving as much


IO




336 SIR. PITT'S EAST INDIA BILL. [Jan. 23,
as possible the commerce of the company to its own superin_
tefidance, has surely in it no tendency to eradicate these evils,
or to emancipate the company from that slavish dependence
on its servants abroad, which has deprived it of energy and
decision, and rendered it the prostituted object of foreign
cabal. It was the intention of my bill to remedy these en-
croachments, of so threatening and destructive a nature, by
excluding the proprietors, as far as was consistent with neces-
sity, from a participation ill a government, in the conduct
of which they had exhibited such a prostitution of sentiment,
and so strange an accommodation of measures, to the cor,
rupt influence and secret intrigues of their servants abroad.
This, however, is by no means theintention of the bill under
discussion. According to it, matters are still allowed to move
on in their former track. Directors must still look to their
constituents, and proprietors may still be decided„ not by mo-
tives of public utility, not by the sentiments of cool delibera-
tion, but by the secret influence of persons who perhaps gave
them existence.


Do not daily observation and experience illustrate the
connection between representative and constituent bodies?
No where is this dependence more eminently exemplified
than in this ,House. Here all of us look to our electors.
Here all of us wish to accommodate ourselves to their inclina-
tions, so far as is consistent with our principles; and in the
event of dissolution, each of us is anxious to conciliate the ap-
probation, friendship, and good offices of our constituents, that
we may not be dismissed. This dependence exhibits, in the
strongest light, the extreme . danger of continuing the commer-
cial concerns of the company in the hands of persons raised to
office, and placed under the absolute control of men who have.
uniformly been under the influence and direction of their ser-
vants abroad. Do not recent facts illustrate this truth, and evi-
dently demonstrate that directors are :chosen not in virtue of
their merits, but agreeably to the prepekssions and prejudices
of the proprietors' I do not mean to expatiate on the circum-
stances of a late election, or to develope the various causes
which have raised an honourable gentleman behind me, (Com-
modore Johnstone) and others, to the office they now hold in
the court of directors. It is sufficient for me to observe, that
in determining the judgment of the populace in such cases,
merit is not always the criterion of decision ; but that in pro-
portion as a servant has acted wrong, in proportion as be has
forfeited the favour of the company, he has, in the same propor-
tion, recommended himself to their patronage and




regard.
Here, then, is a defect of system, a corruption in government,
a protection of delinquency, which loudly calls for 'correction


1734'] MR. PITT'S EAST INDIA BILL. 3 37


and remedy. On the present scheme, however, are not these.
evils rather heightened than destroyed ?


Another objection to the bill, in my opinion, is, that it en-
ures no effective mode of obedience. It enacts an appoint-


ment of officers by one body, and vests their recal in another.
How could such a system be rendered either executive or ef-
fectual? According to every idea of jurisprudence 1 have form-
ed, the executive authority in every well-regulated government
ought to be placed in a small body. This was the constant
theme of those who declaimed on the advantages of monarchi-
cal government, and their reasonings ought certainly to be
admitted in as far as they were agreeable to the maxims of
freedom. Here are, however, two distinct bodies ; a court of
directors and superintendants, constituted on different princi-
ples, who may be actuated by various motives, who may occa-
sionally be influenced by opposite interests ; and yet, into the
hands of these two bodies is to be committed the executive
power of administering the affairs of the India Company.
The one is to have the authority to appoint; it is the privilege
of the other to recal. In so divided a government, where
can there exist either energy or execution ? Founded in prin-
ciples so heterogeneous, must it not be the constant victim of
internal distraction ?


But supposing there should be a cordial agreement establish-
ed between these two executive bodies, though there should even
exist a danger of such an union amongst them, how dreadful
must their combination be to this country ! By whom is the
board of superintendance to be appointed ? Is it not by his
majesty? Is it not to be under his control ? In how dreadful
a point of view, then, must the very supposition of an agree-
ment between this board and the court of directors strike every
one who attends to it ! Must not the existence of such an union
extend the influence of the prerogative, by adding to it the
patronage of the company? Is it not giving power to the sove7
reign for the ends of influence, and for the extension of that
system of corruption which had been so justly reprobated ?
How can those, then, who affect to be the enemies of undue
influence, the candidates for popular distinction, and the af-
fected friends of freedom, pretend to support a. bill so danger-
ous in its tendencies, and so hostile to the liberties of the
Country? In whatever point of view, then, I consider the na-
ture of this regulation, I *must pronounce it to be unwise and
unsafe; for no truths are more obvious than these, that when
the courts of superintendants and directors are at variance,
anarchy will be the effect; when on the other hand they are
agreed, measures will be adopted tending to eucrease the


VOL. J.




338 MR. PITT'S EAST INDIA BILL. [Jan. 23,


fluence of the crown, and destructive of the liberties of the
subject.


To prevent these evils, and to guard against such fluctua-
tion of system, it was proposed in the bill which received the
sanction of this House, that a consistent and permanent govern-
ment of India affairs should be established in London. On
this plan, officers were not to be appointed one day, and re-
called another. The administration of India was not to be
subjected to change, and become a shuttlecock of government,
similar to that which exists in this country. For what has
been the fate of this distracted kingdom for some years past?
Look at the revolutions which have taken place within this
period. Consider how ministry has fluctuated through va-
rious successions, occasioned by different causes, whether of
national disaster, or of secret influence. Look how many
changes there have been brought about in the administration
of Ireland, and in the men appointed in the conduct of it.
Would not a system, then, constituted on similar principles,
be productive of similar effects? Would not the appointments
of men vary in India according to the revolutions of politics
in this country, and every circumstance, on this principle of
the bill, be rendered unstable and ineffectual? No person set-
ting out to India for the most benevolent purposes, could either
accomplish his wishes or secure his permanency under so pre-
carious a regulation.


But this bill is by no means calculated to restrain any of
those abuses which have existed so long, and have been so
loudly complained of. This is another of its cardinal defects.
In so divided a scheme of government, where the manage-
ment of affairs is vested in the same hands as those to whom
it was formerly committed, how can such an object be accom-
plished ? In whom did the responsibility of nomination rest?
No where. His majesty had the power of appointing toties


• quoties, without responsibility. In so strange a system, how
could those abuses be rectified, which it was the object of every
bill on this subject to remedy ?


The bill which I introduced to parliament, placed the re-
sponsibility of appointment and of measures in India affairs in
this House. There it was safe: but where does this bill rest
it? In his majesty's prerogative, without the circumstance s of
responsibility. Does not such a measure give even a legal ex-
tent, without control, to the influence of the crown? On the
principle of the bill, which received your sanction, every thing
was to be canvassed with freedom in this House. All was re-
sponsibility, openness, and fairness : but on the present scheme
every thing is dark design and secret influence. Is it not it;
intention to steal the patronage of the company to the crow n •


1784.] MR. PITT'S EAST INDIA BILL.
339


There is another defect which must strike every one who
attends to the nature and regulations of this bill. Here it is
expressly declared that the civil governor shall be appointed
by the company, and the commander in chief by the crown.
Could any regulation be more effectually calculated to establish
0,n imperiwn iIa imperio, or to produce division and discontent?
Is it not the principle of every well-regulated society, that the
military government shall be under the direction of the civil?
But how can so wise a regulation have its effect on the supposi-
tion that the civil governor is created by one party and the
commander in chief by another ? Such a regulation is almost
too weak and obvious to be exposed.


To the bill which I proposed to the House it was objected,
that it had a tendency to give existence to a patronage, and to
erect a fourth estate, subversive of the liberties of this country;
but let it be remembered to whose hands this patronage was
to be committed, and by whom it was to be exercised—it was
parliament—it was this House. The present bill rests it in
hands appointed by the crown, without responsibility, recall-
able by the crown under the same circumstances, and to be
exercised by the crown for the corruption of this House.


The right honourable the chancellor of the exchequer has
accused me of being possessed of a towering ambition; I think
his a submissive one, as it seems to lead him to erect a system
of mean compliance and secret subordination.


Whether, therefore, I view the present bill with respect to
its intrinsic merits, or in comparison with the other, which
was the bill of this House, I can neither approve of its princi-
ple nor its expediency. It was the object of that bill not to
erect a government at Calcutta, but in London ; not to give
existence to a precarious, changeable mode of administration,
but to establish one stable and permanent; not to give an im-
proper extension to the prerogative of majesty ; not to enchant
this House into an idea of its merits by the charm of the royal
name, but to subject various regulations to the inspection of
parliament; not to screen culprits from judicial infliction, but
bring them to merited punishment : such were the principles,
the circumstances, and the objects of that bill which obtained
the approbation of this House.


But though that bill has been rejected, other ,
expedients,


perhaps less exceptionable, may surely be devised. An alloy
of jealousy respecting it, it has been alledged, influenced the
sentiments of the public. I approve of jealousy in every point
of political concern, and in all points of new regulation, which
may affect the freedom and happiness of the nation. But
though jealousies have existed, surely proper restraints may be


z 2




340 MR. PITT'S EAST INDIA BILL. [Jan. 23s,
imposed on those circumstances which seemed more especially
to awaken the suspicion of the public.


Much has been said of the nomination of persons which had
taken place in the former bill. Their character and abilities
have been canvassed with much freedom. I am however hap-
py to say, that they were all of them persons of wisdom and
integrity equal to the important trust reposed in them. The
noble earl (Eitzwilliam) on whom the first charge was to de-
volve, is a person whose knowledge, whose abilities, and whose
industry render him every way capable for so interesting
charge. There is no person, I am sure, who has the honour
of his acquaintance, and who knows his merits, but who will
admit the truth of the assertion. The character of another
gentleman (Sir Henry Fletcher), who was to have been con-
nected with the noble earl in office, has been reflected on in
another House. Aspersion, however, if unsupported by.evi,
dence, is the worst species of invective. Enquiry, I know, has
been made into the foundation of these reflections, and they
have been discovered to be groundless. In this situation, then,
it surely becomes the noble lord 'who threw them out, to dis-
avow them as openly as he uttered them. I am convinced
these was no person among the seven appointed by that House,
whose character and abilities were objectionable, and with re-
spect to which he was not prepared to meet inquiry.


For these reasons I am fully decided against the principles
and political regulations of the present bill. It tends to no
reformation at home, to no correction of abuse abroad. It
tends to remedy none of those evils which have existed for
so long a period, nor to put a period to those barbarities
which have stigmatised and rendered infamous the character
of Britain, in the annals of India. If adopted, the company
may send out their orders to their servants ; they may reple-
nish their letters with morals and ethics, but they will be listen-
ed to with indifference and disrespect. If adopted, I do not
hesitate to say that India is gone, is irrecoverably lost for ever.
Gone I am sorry to say, because I am aware, that notwith-
standing the magnitude of this truth, notwithstanding its
alarming circumstances, there are still some in this House who
will give it their concurrence and assent.


After a long debate, the House divided on the motion that the
bill be committed:


Tellers.
- Tellers.


Mr. 'Steele
`Lord Maitland/ 2




yEAS M. Robt. Smith} 214.—N°— Mr. Byng
.f


222


Mr. Pitt's India Bill being thus rejected


784.] MR. PITT'S EAST INDIA BILL. 341
Mr. Fox immediately moved for leave to bring in a bill for the


better regulation and management of the affairs of die East India
Company. In doing this, he stated that he had only two funda-
mental principles which he could not give up ; and these were,
that the system for the government of India should be perma-
nent, rendered so by the authority of parliament; and secondly,
that the government should be at home. These were the
points of his bill from which he could not recede. They were
the essential grounds on which he had gone in all his proposi-
tions for India. Other parts of his system were secondary,
and might be modelled to meet the inclinations and opinions
of the country. In the mean time, he begged leave to ask
the right honourable gentleman, if they were to be permitted
to enter with freedom and security into the progress of this bill;
if they were to trust to the promise made in the answer of the
crown to the address of the House; or if they were to be dis-
solved because they had had the spirit and wisdom to maintain
their opinion, and to reject a bill, which in its principle and
tendency was so opposite to that which they had adopted ?
Perhaps gentlemen might think it was necessary to secure
themselves against the possibility of such an act of desperation
and violence on the part of ministers by an address to the
throne. He did not think, however, that even they, mad,
weak, or desperate as they might be, would venture to go such
a length. He did not think they would ; because, trusting to
the candour of the right honourable gentleman, he did not be-
lieve it possible that he could be guilty of such scandalous de-
ceit and imposition as to perpetrate such an act after the answer
which he had framed for his majesty. But as that answer
certainly contained an equivocal meaning, and might have va-
rious readings, he thought the right honourable gentleman
called upon to rise, and declare explicitly what was the true
sense of that answer, and what was the construction which he.,
as the framer, put upon it.


Mr. Pitt sat still; the members from all sides of the House call-
ing upon him in vain to rise. Sir Grey Cooper said, the silence of
the right honourable gentleman, though it seemed to indicate an
I ntention to proceed to the dissolution of parliament, ought not, in
his mind, to be so construed. It was impossible to imagine that
any set of men could be so violent as to dissolve the parliament in
the present circumstances of things. If they did, the nation would
have the alarming novelty of a standing army in the country in a
tune of peace, not under the authority of an act of parliament, nor
governed by any law. Besides this, it was to be remembered, that
the sum of 2,700,0001. had been granted by parliament to the king
for the supplies of the year, which immense sum was as yet un-


Z 3




34 2MR. FITT'S EAST INDIA BILLS. [Jan. 23.
appropriated, and could not be appropriated without grants. if
any minister should be daring enough to touch this money, or to
apply it without sanction from parliament, what would the public
creditors say, if by a dissolution of parliament they should be pre-
vented from receiving their money? But thesewere only two of many
considerations that operated against such a measure, and he thought
if the right honourable gentleman persisted in his silence, the House
should come to a resolution. The cry of move, move, on Mr. Pitt's
sitting still, was very loud.


Mr. Fox rose and spoke with still more animation than be-
fore. The dissolution of parliament, in circumstances like
the present, was, he said, an act of such violence, and would
be productive of such effects, as neither the talents, vigour,
nor industry of the present ministry, were they even much
greater than their best friends affected to think them, would
be able to retrieve. In the present moment, when the taxes
were to be considered — when means were to be tried by
which the severest of our burdens might be lightened—when
means were to be thought of for procuring, on the easiest terms,
the sums that must be borrowed this year for defraying of ne-
cessary and incumbent debts—when taxes were to be framed
at a time when easy taxes were not to be discovered by the
most inventive mind — when treaties were negotiating with
foreign powers—when the con aised and complicated accounts
of a long war were to be made up —at such a moment to see
a ministry, whom the House of Commons had declared to
be destitute of their confidence, daring enough to dissolve the
parliament, was a novelty in the history of this country. It was
impossible for him to speak ofthe sulky silence of the right ho-
nourable gentleman in any other terms than those o f indignation.
That the minister of the crown should treat the House with
so little decency was really strange, and he still trusted in the
candour of the right honourable gentleman that he would give
them satisfaction, and supersede the necessity of their going
into any farther measure to secure their existence, until the
bill which he had moved for leave to bring in should be fairly
argued.




Leave was given by the House to Mr. Fox to bring in the bill ;
but the events which followed prevented their proceeding further
upon it.


174] MOTION FOR THE REMOVAL OF MINISTERS.
343


LORD CHARLES SPENCER'S MOTION FOR THE REMOVAL OF
MINISTERS.


Janitary 16.


THE discussion of Mr. Pitt's India bill did not prevent the Houseof Commons from adverting, in the mean time, to the general
state of public affairs. The resolution which passed on the 12th of
January, would probably, at any other period, have operated de-
cisively against the ministry ;- but the stake was too deep to be
hastily thrown away ; and an attempt was therefore made to evade
the consequences of that vote, by considering it as too generally
worded to convey any direct censure on the members of the pre-
sent-administration. In order, therefore, to bring the point to a
more direct issue, the following resolution was this day moved by
Lord Charles Spencer, in the committee on the state of the na-
tion: " That it having been declared to be the opinion of this
House, that, in the present situation of his majesty's dominions, it
is peculiarly necessary that there should be an administration
which has the confidence of this House, and (.,f the public ; and
that the appointments of his majesty's present ministers were ac-
companied by circumstances new and extraordinary, and such as
do not conciliate or engage the confidence of this House ; the con-
tinuance of the present ministers in trusts of the highest importance
and responsibility, is contrary to constitutional principles, and in-
jurious to the interests of his majesty and his people." In oppo-
sition to this motion, it was argued, that the premises, allowing
them to be true and well founded, did not warrant the conclusion,
since the present ministers were not even accused of having had
any share in the transactions alluded to. They had been consti-
tutionally appointed by his majesty, who had the sole right to ap-
point them ; and though it was not denied that a majority of the
House was competent to declare their want of confidence in mi-
nisters so appointed, yet they Were bound in duty to alledge good
and sufficient grounds for such a declaration ; otherwise the nation
would justly consider it not as a constitutional question, but as a
daring assumption of the prerogative of the crown, and a factious
attempt in such a majority to nominate their own ministers. In
the course of the debate, Mr. Powys expressed his wishes for an
union between the contending parties, as the only means of saving
the constitution from the shock it was otherwise likely to receive.


Mr. Fox observed, that political distinctions were by no
means involved in the present question. 'The principles of
Whig and Tory, said he, which have given rise to so much
difference of sentiment, and to so much disputation in the
world, have no connection with it. In my conversations with
the rankest Whigs, and in the whole course of my reading,


z 4




344 LORD CHARLES SPENCER'S MOTION [Jan. 16.
I have never found the hardiest of them deny a right inherent
in the prerogative to elect its own ministers. On this point all
arc agreed. But though this be .the admitted and established
right of the executive branch of the constitution, is it not also
the privilege of this House, and of parliament, to decide on
the conduct of administration, on the peculiarity of their in..
troduction into office, and on those circumstances which
either entitle them to the confidence or the reprobation of the
House? It was on this principle allowed on all hands, and
the exercise of which, in various instances, has saved the
country from ruin, that the resolutions of last Monday were
submitted to the committee, and afterwards received the
sanction of this branch of the legislature.


But although it is undoubtedly t r the prerogative of his majesty
to appoint his ministers, it may still be a point worthy of
consideration, how far it may be prudent, wise, and politic
in a monarch to continue them in power, and support them
in office, when they are declared by that House to have been
elevated to their station by means unconstitutional, and such
as have rendered them unworthy of confidence. On this
question, as I cannot allow myself even to imagine that a mo-


,


narch would appoint ministers whom he did not think pos-
sessed of the confidence of parliament, so I cannot even form
an idea that a wise and prudent sovereign would be hardy
enough to continue in office those who have been reprobated
as undeserving their regard. In my opinion, therefore, there is
no medium, there is no option to the crown, as long as the
late resolutions remain unexpunged.


Sir, it has been alledged, that these resolutions were passed
at a late hour, and that they were precipitated in a manner
unbecoming their magnitude and importance. It is true they
were agreed upon at the conclusion of a long and tedious de-
bate. But let gentlemen reflect on the numbers who voted
on the occasion, and even on the length of discussion to
which they were previously subjected. There were three
hundred and thirty eight members in the House when these
resolutions were adopted, and, though decided at a late hour,
the grounds of them had, in the course of the debate, been
frequently touched on, and fully explained.


Much has been said of the importance of an immediate dis-
cussion of the bill which has this day been read in the House;
lr hope every member will pause over these suggestions; that
he will reflect for a moment in whom this bill originates; that
he will consider that it comes from, and is supported by, men,
to whom this House has denied its confidence, and whose
mode of election it has reprobated and condemned.


I readily agree with an honourable member who has as'


174] TOR TIIE RPMOVAL OF MINISTERS.
- 345


tierted, that the failure of any bill proposed by ministers is no
cause for their dismission from office. This is a sound doe-


. trine ; let it be applied to the dissolution of the late ministry.
A bill received the sanction of one branch of the legislature,
and was submitted to the consideration of the other. Every
thing seemed to promise it at first a favourable reception in
the other House: there was only one method, a method as
new as unexpected, as secret as infamous, by which it could
be overthrown. This dark design was accomplished by a
member of the present administration, but who has since, for
reasons best known to himself, resigned his charge. It was
not therefore the failure of the India bill in the other House
which ejected the late ministry from office, but the mode by
which that failure was accomplished ; a mode, which being,
new and extraordinary, this House has condemned. On these
accounts, therefore, even though the India bill which has
been this day read, were the essence of political wisdom, it
ought to be rejected by the House.


-It has been asserted, that the influence of the crown in this
House is diminished. Still, however, is it not great and ex-
tensive ? Does not the dismission of the late ministry, and the
adoption of the present, exhibit its magnitude ? Were not
both these measures effectuated by the means of a dark and
secret influence on the royal mind ? 'Was it not in this way
that ministers, who had been emphatically styled the keepers
of his majesty's conscience, were dismissed from the participa.
tion of his councils and government? These were facts which
were no secrets. These the person who was accessary to their
existence, found himself under the necessity of publishing
and when he published them, he published, at the same time,
his own infamy. Would a man, with the heart of a man,
have acted so mean and shameful a part ?


But, whilst I thus express myself with respect to the rights
of parliament; whilst I assert the privilege of this House to
decide on the conduct of ministers, and to consider the modes
or artifices by which they have crept into office ; whilst I ex-


. hibit and condemn their conspiracies against the constitution
of this country, let it not be understood that I wish to dimi-
nish those rights which are legally invested in majesty. The
Prerogative of the negative is a maxim which I have always
admitted, always asserted, always defended. Who doubts it ?
I, for one, never have. And had this prerogative on a late
occasion been exerted, not in the dark and under the baleful
shade of a secret influence, but in an honest, open, and
avowed manner, I should have applauded the measure.


An honourable member (Mr. Powys) has reflected on my
ambition in the progress of my parliamentary conduct. But




346 LORD CHARLES SPENCER'S MOTION [Jan. r6.
by what fact can he substantiate his charge ? Has not my con..
duct been always consistent? Have I trod in any road but
one ? Have 1 not sought to elevate myself by direct, open and
constitutional modes ? Have I endeavoured to gratify my am.._
bition by the artifices of secret intrigue, by sculking behind
the throne, by flattering his majesty's prejudices ? Have I
ever deviated from the principles I have avowed, or incon-
sistently and meanly attached myself to one administration in
eighty-two, and another constituted on opposite principles in
eighty-three ? No one can state such objections to my conduct.


A coalition has been the subject of recommendation during
the course of debate. I neither court nor avoid union with
any party. Such coalition, however, must be established on
a broad and consistent basis. Every well-constituted admi-
nistration must be one With itself. This is absolutely indis-
pensable. The noble lord with whom I formed a coalition,
differed from me on various grounds previous to the establish-
ment of this connection. We differed on the subject of the.
American war. This difference, however, was obviated when
that war came to a period. I thought 'the influence of the
crown too great. On this subject the noble lord also differed
from me. This ground of contrariety of opinion was likewise,
in some measure, taken away. A third thing, in which the
noble lord and myself entertained a variety of sentiment, was
his connecting himself with an administration of whose mea-
sures he did not perfectly approve. This point the noble
lord may still defend, whilst I maintain my former opinions.
These were the material grounds on which, in our political
conduct, we differed, and which, being clone away, every
objection to our coalition was removed. I have, therefore,
no objection to connect myself with persons of any descrip-
tion, with whom I can form a permanent union on sound and
general principles, with men who enjoy the confidence of this
House and of the public. When such persons appear, [shall
reckon it a duty to coalesce with them, a duty which I owe to
my country.


An honourable gentleman under the gallery has told us,
that his majesty had a confidence in the present ministers : but
can such an idea be for one moment supported in the House?
Can it be believed that his majesty has ar confidence in men
who have formed a conspiracy against the constitution, and
got into office by an act of treachery ? Such a supposition /5
a libel on majesty ; after the resolutions of Monday it cannot
exist; and I have too great a respect for the sovereign to
thy& or i r.


To confound personal and political confidence is a common
error. That his majesty may repose a personal confidenc e in


17 84. ] FOR THE REMOVAL O1 MINISTERS. 347
his present ministers, separately and individually, I have no
doubt; but that he should repose a confidence in their political
character, under the opprobrium which rested on them, is too
gross an idea to be admitted or entertained. What language
does such a supposition,


hold out to every member in the
House? Is it not saying to him, spend not your time in poli-
tics; cease to study the constitution ofyour country, or to rise
to eminence in .


the senate; study rather the arts of ductility
and secret intrigue; these are much better calculated to give
you distinction in the state, by rendering you the object of
royal regard. I venerate the character of the young man who
holds the reins of government at present; I admire his virtues
and respect his ability; but if lie would conciliate the favour of
such a monarch, he must sacrifice every ingenuous quality in
his nature; he must substitute cunning instead of wisdom,
complaisance instead of honesty, and meanness instead of real
fortitude and magnanimity. lie, therefore, who maintains
that the present ministry enjoy the confidence of the crown,
affronts the dignity and wisdom of majesty, and even fights on
his stumps in defence of a reprobated administration.


These circumstances, therefore, strongly impress me with
the idea, that the king is either ignorant of the resolutions of
last Monday, or that his ministers have deceived him with re-
spect to them. "When the noble lord who sits near Inc, and
who governed the country for so long :I period, at last found
himself deserted by the House, and a majority of nine only in
his favour, even in this situation he retired with becoming pro-
priety and decency. How much more, then, is it incum-
bent on those to follow his example, against whom a much
greater majority appeared on a vote of censure on their admis-
sion to office.


There is, therefore, a political necessity for the present
motion. I am happy, however, that it is not personal, and
would still hope that the measures of the present administra-
tion will not lay the House under the necessity of following up
their former resolutions by an address to the throne.


Much has been said of the confidence of the public in the
present administration. I have been told that this day an ad-
dress has been carried to the throne in support of this idea.
But if in that address it has been insinuated to majesty that
his late ministry threatened, or still threaten, to invade the pre-
rogative, I have only to assert, that such an insinuation is
false. A rumour has been circulated, and adverted to in the
}louse, that it is the intention of the public to correct the
vices of parliament, by supporting ministry by voluntary bene-
volences. Of this mode of


z.3
supportina administration, indepen-


dent of parliamentary subsidy, I remember to have received a




348 LORD CHARLES SPENCER'S MOTION [Jan. 20,
most able and decided opinion from that acute and masterly
genius, Lord Ashburton, whose loss to this country I cannot
sufficiently lament. As, however, it is the most improbable, f
think it is also the most innocent mode of supply that has been
devised. In the present case, however, it is more dangerous
perhaps than in any other. The situation of this House,
threatened by the existence of a ministry whorl they have con..
demned, would render such a measure, were there not an in',
probability of its existence, truly alarming.


Sir, I have only one point more to touch on, but it is one
which I cannot pass over in silence. Much has been said of
active and passive influence. This is a doctrine which, in its.
application to the royal personage who has frequented this
House of late, I do not understand. God forbid that he
should not take an interest in its political concerns ! For where
is he mere likely to imbibe a knowledge of the principles of the.
constitution than within these walls ? And bow can he more
eminently illustrate the excellence of his character than by thus
blending his personal respect for his majesty- with his attach-
ment to his country ?


The committee divided on the resolution, when there appeared,
YEAS 205 : NOES 184. The resolution, on being reported, was
agreed to by the House.


January zo.


The public expectation was now fixed on two important events,
the one or other of which it was supposed would be the necessary
consequence of the last vote of the House of Commons; namely,
the resignation of the ministers, or the dissolution of parliament.
On the loth of January, the day appointed for the committee again
to sit on the state of the nation, there was a' general call amongst
the members, called country gentlemen, for a coalition. Mr. Rolle
gave as his reason for not moving.


for certain papers, that a
rumour was then afloat, that a negociation was on foot, by which,
it was to be hoped, an end would be put to the species of confusion
which had of late distracted the government of this country. Soon
after Mr. Rolle had sat down, Mr. Fox entered the House, and a
Cry of" the order of the day' s was immediately set up. Upon this,


Mr. Fox rose. He said that since he came into the House
he had been informed, that an honourable member had given
for his reason for not moving for certain papers, that a rumour
had been spread abroad of a negociation having been set on foot
for the purpose of effecting an union between both sides of the
House. The reason, in his opinion, was a very indecent one,
and the more so, as there was no ground for any such rumour


1 784.]


FOR THE REMOVAL OF MINISTERS,
349


at least. he could say with certainty that no such negociation
had reached his knowledge. His motive for rising on the
present occasion was, to tell the House, that he intended to
wove for the discharge of' the order of the clay, and that another
order be made for going into a committee on the state of the
nation. He observed, that after the resolution which the
House had agreed to on Saturday morning last, it was certain-
ly to him a matter of astonishment, that the present men should
still be found in their offices, seeing that that resolution declared..
in the most unequivocal terms, that they possessed not the con-
fidence of the House. The nation now beheld what had not.
been seen since the Revolution, an administration holding their
places in defiance of the House of Commons, and renewing as
much as in them lay those distracted times before the Revolu-
tion, when, to the misfortune of the nation,'the House of Corn-
mons were almost always at variance with the executive power;
and obliged to maintain their rights against the prerogative of:
the crown, which aimed at their annihilation. Would that the
sea, which surrounded the island, could prevent the shame of this
country from reaching the nations on the continent; would
that the destruction of this government could be kept from the
knowledge of the dependencies of this country, or rather that
the constitution were secured, and that every thing were re-
stored to peace and quiet at home, at a moment when there
was so much occasion for vigorous measures in the cabinet !
It might be for the committee to enquire into the cause, why
an administration was found to stand in this country, in open
defiance of the sense of the representatives of the people of
England: however, he was willing to give his majesty's minis-
ters time to reflect and coolly to consider the situation in which
they stood : —they must know, that remaining in office under
such circumstances, must be productive of the most serious
Consequences, not perhaps to themselves but to their country.
It seemed at present to be a contest between privilege and prero-
gative, or rather between prerogative and the constitution. The
question was in fact, whether a secret and unconstitutional in-
fluence should so far prevail in this country, as to be able to
maintain in office a set of men in whom the House of Com-
mons had declared they could not repose confidence. These
men should reflect that a more dangerous contest could not
Possibly be introduced; that such a contest never existed in
this country, without proving injurious to the prerogative of
the crown and the liberties of the people. They should re-
flect seriously upon this, and consider how unlike lovers of
their country they must be, to render themselves instrumental
ill bringing on a contest, from which the most melancholyb
Consequences might naturally be expected. In order, there-




350 LORD CHARLES SPENCER'S MOTION
[Jan. 2Q.


fore, to give them time to enter into a serious consideration
of the business, he was willing to adjourn the farther sitting of
the committee on the state of the nation to Monday next; ankl
he hoped that by that time they would be able to give such
advice to his majesty, as should appear to them suited to the
present situation of affairs. As to the idea of an union with
those whom he was now opposing, all he would say was, that
he was not an enemy to any individual; but gentlemen should
consider how far it was practicable to effect it consistently with
principles that appeared almost irreconcileable.


Lord Frederick Campbell was glad the right honourable gentle.
man had consented to put off the sitting of the committee for a
week ; but he would have been still more pleased, if he had put it
off to a still more distant day than Monday next ; for as the House
would naturally expect to go through the India bill, before the
committee should sit again, they would find it impossible, as the
bill was not to be read a second time till Friday, if the committee
was to sit on the succeeding Monday. He was not without hopes
that every thing might still be accommodated to the satisfaction of
all parties, in the present struggle for power.


Mr. Fox replied to the noble lord. He said, that he was
in hopes the sitting of the committee would not be found to
interfere in any respect with the consideration of Mr. Pitt's
India bill, for he trusted that the I-louse would throw it out on
the second reading upon Friday ; so that there would not be
any ground for objecting to the sitting of the committee, as
interfering with the discussion of the bill. For his part, he
would do all he could to consider the bill on its own bottom,
without adverting to any collateral circumstance that might
have attended its introduction into that House; but it could
hardly be expected that the House would follow his example
in that respect ; it was bordering upon an impossibility, that
these circumstances should not be adverted to by gentlemen
in the course of the debate ; and, therefore, if the bill could
not be discussed without any reference to them, it was not his
fault, but the fault of those, who had, by their misconduct,
rendered such a proceeding unavoidable. The noble lord had
called this a struggle for power ; but he would beg leave to as-
sure the noble lord, that if this expression meant a struggle


f. for
personal power in him and his noble friend, there was not the
least foundation for it. The struggle was in fact between the
right honourable gentleman over the way (Mr. Pitt) and the
constitution ; and if in such a struggle, he (Mr. Fox) and those
who acted with him, were to remain neuter, it might be truly
said, that they had abandoned the constitution.


• As far as he
himself seemed to be struggling for personal power, he kbs-


12


5784.] TOR THE REMOVAL OF MINISTERS. 35 1
.claimed the imputation in the most solemn manner; and he
would venture to go as far in disclaiming it in the name of his
noble friend (Lord North', whom he did not then see in the
House; and, it was but justice to say of that noble lord, that of
all the charges brought against him while he was at the head
of affairs, that of struggling for personal power was never so
much as thought of; on the contrary, he had always declared,
-and his subsequent conduct proved the sincerity of his declara-
tions, that he looked to the confidence of parliament for the
support of his administration ; and when a resolution was pro-
posed to that House to declare the commons would no longer
confide in him, his noble friend, true to his repeated and in-
variable declarations, thought proper to retire, though he was
not so deserted, but he was able to negative that resolution by
a majority of nine on a division. Why, then, was the no-
ble lord become disagreeable to the secret advisers of the
crown ? Not surely because he had carried on the American
war, which was so agreeable to their wishes, but because he re-
fused to carry it on after he found that the House of Commons •-
had resolved it should be given up. His noble friend, like a
man who rightly understood the constitution of his country,
knew that when the commons and the executive power were
at variance, no minister could or ought to stand ; or, in other
words, that no minister could stand, who had not the support.
and confidence of the House of Commons. With this princi-
ple rooted in his mind, his noble friend gave up the helm of
the state, because he knew he ought not to hold it against the
sense of the representatives of the people. Here was the great
cause which rendered his noble friend so disagreeable to the
secret advisers of the crown. It was not because his noble
friend had not supported the influence of the crown, but be-
cause he refused to be the tool of these advisers in supporting
that influence against the sense of the commons of England.
His noble friend submitted to the sense of that House, and
refused to push that influence as far as perhaps he might have
had means to do, if he had paid less deference to the opinion
of the House of Commons.


But, what his noble friend had nobly, and like a lover of
this constitution, refused to do, his majesty's present ministers
had been brought in to execute; they came in, therefore,
the avowed champions of the influence of prerogative, under
the auspices of secret influence. They were brought in for
the purpose of shewing how far the prerogative was able to
support a minister, and enable him to look down upon the
resolutions of the commons of England. That House had
formerly been accused of being too intimately connected with
the crown; but that happy connection, which had produced




3 5 it LORD CHARLES SPENCER'S MOTION [Jan. 20.
harmony, and raised this country from the period of the
Revolution down to this day, to an envied pitch of opulence
and power, was now dissolved, and those fatal times ante.
cedent to the Revolution were revived, in which the ministers
of the crown were invariably at war with the commons. The
present, he said, was an era in this constitution, and the man
who could stand an idle spectator of the events of the last
three weeks, could not be a friend to his country. To strug-
gle, therefore, at present, was not to struggle for power but
for liberty. He was sure that there was not a man in that


-
House who would lay his hand upon his heart and say, and
much less believe; that if the noble stand which had pro..
duced the various resolutions that had passed within these
three weeks had not been made, there would have been at
this day in this country, any thing more of liberty than the,
shadow; the substance would have been borne down by the
influence of the crown.


The noble lord and several other respectable gentlemen
had recommended union to both sides of the House. It was
much easier to recommend than to effect it; and lie begged
gentlemen would not suffer themselves to be hurried away
by too sanguine hopes, that such an union could be as easily
effected as it could be wished for. For his part, he had no
objection to an union; but in order that it might be of ad-
vantage to the public, it ought to be founded in principle;
and how far this could be done in the present moment, he
would leave it to the House to determine. Some men are
brought into power by means which by others are declared
to be absolutely unconstitutional; nay, absolutely subversive
of the constitution. The parties accused defend these means;
how, therefore, can these two parties ever agree in measures
when they disagree in principles, with respect to the very
foundation on which a ministry ought to stand? One set
of men think that the opinion of the House of Commons
ought not to guide the sovereign in the choice of ministers
who may have the confidence of the people; while the other
set think that no ministry can or ought to stand, but on the
confidence and support of the House of Commons. The
one party stands upon prerogative, the other upon respon-
sibility and the constitution. How, therefore, ,could these
parties coalesce? Union might live upon their tongues, but
not in their hearts; and he begged that those gentlemen who
so laudably endeavoured to bring about an union, would
not suffer themselves to be hurried away with an , idea, that
it was easily to be produced. To all appearance, indeed,
union might exist; but in fact, disunion and distraction
would alone be found , in council, if the different parties, how^


13


1784.] FOR THE REMOVAL OF MINISTERS. 353
ever they might differ on-particular points, did not all stand
upon one great and broad principle. He had already ex-
perienced this misfortune in one of the two governments in
which he had borne a part, where every thing bore the ap-
pearance of union and harmony, when in reality nothing but
discord and division prevailed in the cabinet. He had rather,
therefore, if an union upon principle., could not be expected,
that no union at all should tike place; he had rather differ
in that House, where he could assign his reasons for his
differing, and where the House could decide, -than in a place
where the parties differing were ultimately to decide; and the
nature of which was, that a man could not relate the causes
of the difference. An union, not founded upon principle,
would be fallacious, and infinitely more dangerous to the
country than the divisions which at that time prevailed
within the walls of that House.


Gentlemen wished the India bill might be considered upon
its.own merits, and that concessions might be made on both.
sides ; for his part he was ready to do it; in his opinion it
carried in itself internal evidence of its inadequacy to the
end for which it was proposed. The principal cethin which
seemed to recommend it to the House was, that it was


g


on propositions made by the East India company itself. But
be would show that there was not near so much in the boasted
consent of the company, as gentlemen might be led to imagine,
which he hoped to be able to prove to the House, when the
bill should come before them. As to concessions, he did not
know how the right honourable gentleman over the way
could make any, without fulling into that very error or
crime, which had been made such a ground of attack upon
his bill, namely, the acting without the consent, or against
the will of the parties concerned. For as the bill was built
on certain specific propositions, to rwhich the company were
isItIttli)dsupposed


in
d to have given their consent, if any alteration was
the bill, which would make it differ from the prin-


ciple of these resolutions, it could no longer be said to come
recommended by the consent of the company. For these
different reasons he had very little hopes of seeing such an
union effected, as would prove a blessing to the country.


In reply to Mr. Fox, Mr. Pitt said, he was by no means averse
to the union so strongly and so properly recommended by the
respectable and independent country gentlemen, from whom the
recommendation had come; but, on the other hand, he agreed
Perfectly with the right honourable gentleman, that an union not
founded on principle, and which would produce disunion where


would he more dangerous than in this House, would be a falle-ciolu,Os Lu. nIiro.n, and such as no lover of his country ever could with
A A




3 5 4 MR. EDEN'S MOTION TO OBSTRUCT [Jan. 26.
to see. The right honourable gentleman had said, that he, in
common with his majesty's other ministers, held their places in
defiance of the opinion of that House : in answer to this charge,
he would say, that nothing but a 'sense of his duty to the public
could keep him in office ; and when in the committee on the state
of the nation, this business should come to he agitated, he would
state the motives which kept him in office, arid which he trusted
would be found just and reasonable ; for the present, he would
only say, that he thought he could not : at this moment, go out
of office with as much honour as had attended his going into it.
He had also been accused of standing for support on secret in.
fluence ; but this was an assertion which he defied any man to
establish by proof. [Here was a loud laugh, occasioned by the
challenge to produce proof of a thing done in secret.] With
respect to this secret influence and secret advisers, he would assure
the House, that as long as he should bear a part in his majesty's
councils, he would never suffer himself to be influenced by any
secret influence, or secret advisers, if any such there were.


Mr. Fox's motion for going into a committee on the state of the
nation upon Monday, the 26th instant, was agreed to.


MR. EDEN'S MOTION TO OBSTRUCT A DISSOLUTION 01,
PARLIAMENT.


Januau 26.


THIS day, his majesty's answer to the address of the Housebeing read by the clerk, the following motion was made by
Mr. Eden, with a view to give the House a more permanent sect'•
rity than the precarious mode of existence it then enjoyed only
from day to day ; " That it appears to this House, that his ma-
jesty's said most gracious answer contains assurances upon which
this House cannot but most firmly rely, that his majesty will not,
by the prorogation or dissolution of parliament, interrupt this
House in their considerations of proper measures for regulating
the affairs of the East India company, and for supporting the
public credit and revenues of this country; objects which, in the
opinion of his majesty, and of this House, and of the public, can-
not but be thought to demand the most immediate and unre-
mitting attention of parliament." As soon as the motion was
read, Mr. Pitt declared, that his majesty had indeed pledged him-
self in his answer not to interrupt their meeting again after e


their
adjournment ; but he saw not how it could be inferred, that th
royal word was pledged any further. To a motion, therefore,
affixing an unlimited construction to the king's answer, he mast
give his dissent ; and that for the strongest reason that could pos.-
sibly be adduced, namely, because he knew when he advised 111.5


6


1784.] A DISSOLUTION OF PARLIAMENT. 355
majesty to use the words in which the answer was framed, he never
had such an indefinite sense of them in his contemplation. In the
present situation of affairs, he thought a dissolution could not but
be attended with great detriment and mischief, and therefore he
should not advise any such exercise of the prerogative.


Mr. Fox professed himself entirely easy as to a dissolution,
after this declaration of the right honourable gentleman ;
had Ito condescended to have expressed himself' so a fortnight
ago, he would have saved the parliament and the people much
trouble and much anxiety. The right honourable gentleman
had at length thought proper to relax in some degree from
that absolute silence, that sullen reserve, the House so lately
experienced from him; but has he, pursued Mr. Fox, dis-
charged every duty of respect? Has he acquitted himself
with due decency to this House? Or has he not pursued the
very reverse of such a conduct, in continuing in his situation
as minister in positive and direct contempt of a solemn re-
solution of this FIouse? That this House has a right to ad-
dress and advise his majesty in the choice of his ministers,
as well as other subjects of importance, is a point on which
DO person will venture to dispute, though his majesty has
certainly, by the frame of the constitution, the right of elms-


g his own ministers, a prerogative which he may exercise
at his discretion : but that a member of this House shall,
in defiance of its solemn vote, delivered after a long debate
and the maturest deliberation, p


•esunie to continue -in so
obnoxious a situation, is such an insult to the honour, the
sense, and the judgment of parliament, as ought not to be
overlooked. Is it to be expected that the business of the
nation can be conducted with effect, can proceed at all dur-
ing the administration of men who want that indispensable
requisite to every ministry, the confidence of the people?
Are we to be told that the solemn resolutions of this House
are to be considered as trifles in the eye of one of its own
Members? Or will the right honourable gentleman openly
avow what his conduct so glaringly manifests, that he con-
siders himself superior to this House? That a situation he
stole into by intrigue, by private whispers, and by springing
the mine of secret influence, will support him against the
positive resolution of the House of Commons? That he can
erect the banner of secret influence here, in opposition to
public confidence? Or that he can continue, what 1 sun
obliged now to call him, the unconstitutional minister of the
crown, against the voice of parliament and the spirit of the
constitution? Then, indeed, would there be an end to the
excellence of that system, which we vaunt as the utmost


A A 2




356 MR. EDEN'S MOTION TO OBSTRUCT [Jan. 26.
effort of legislative perfection; then could we no longer boast
of that happy equilibrium on which our liberties depend.;
and our constitution, from being the envy and admiration,
would become'the mockery and scorn, of all Europe. These
Are circumstances too glaring to be doubted. This is a si-
tuation too grievous to be tolerated. We have hitherto
acted on the calmest, on the mildest principles ; but however
unwilling to adopt strong and violent measures, we ought not
to be less determined, nor are those with whom I have the
honour to act. Why, then, will the gentleman persevere to
mock, to insult the dignity and the honour of parliament?
'Why will he always persist in forcing to disagreeable extre-
mities? I would not this night, nor for some time, perhaps,
move any resolution on this subject. I should be sorry to
recur to means which would wear any other than a concilia-
tory aspect, or should tend to dissolve those bands of union
and harmony between the legislative and executive power,
so necessary to carry into effect the various operations of
policy .and government.


After very ably and accurately discussing Mr. Pitt's alle-
gations, and skewing the impossibility of any business being
effectually or successfully conducted under an administration
formed on the principles of the present, and lying under the
censure of the House, he concluded" by earnestly entreating
gentlemen to consider the circumstances in question, acting
with coolness and deliberation, but at the same time with
firmness and resolution.


In reply to Mr. Fox, Mr. Pitt asserted, that though the situa-
tion of a minister maintaining his post, after the House of Com-
mons had declared him undeserving of their confidence, was novel
and extraordinary, yet it was in his opinion by no means uncon-
stitutional. He conceived that, by the constitution, neither the
immediate appointment or removal of a minister rested with that
House ; that he neither could nor ought to remain long in such a
situation he was ready to confess ; but he was bound to use his.
own discretion, in preventing the mischievous consequences that
might attend an instant resignation. It behoved him to consider
who were likely to be his successors ; and he was bound, in honour
and in duty, so far to support the prerogative of the crown, as not
to quit a situation,. because it was become difficult or dangerous,
till he saw some prospect of its being filled in a manner more ac-
ceptable to all the parties concerned.


Mr. Fox said, if the right honourable gentleman had not
before manifested, that he considered himself superior to
that House, he -had, in the present instant—standing up the
unconstitutional minister of the crown—expressly declared.,


1784.] A DISSOLUTION OF PARLIAMENT. 351
that he despised the resolution of that insignificant assembly.
The right honourable gentleman had remarked on the ad-
vantage of appealing to the sense of the House, and very
justly; the right honourable gentleman was himself the only
minister who had ever despised their approbation,—creeping
into power by means unfair, as they were unconstitutional.
The right honourable gentleman did not pretend to that con-
fidence which so eminently distinguished the late ministry,
the confidence of that House, and the. confidence of the
people. Ceremony and etiquette, Mr. Fox said, he might be
easily induced to forego; nay, lie should even, on some oc-
casions, sacrifice his own honour, and that of his friends, and
suffer their dignity to be diminished, if the emergencies of
the country required it ; but on no occasion would he suffer
any sacrifice to be made of the honour or the dignity of the
House of Commons. Both the one and the other were at
stake in the contempt of their resolutions; as long as they
conveyed a censure, as long as they reprobated the principles
on which the present ministry held their situations, so long
would he refuse to unite with then; so long would he oppose
them, though they should possess all the abilities, all the vir-
tues, all the popularity which any former administration might
have possessed, or which might possibly fall to the share of
any subsequent administration. But how does the gentle-
man attempt to defend himself? On what ground does he
stand against the censure of parliament? 44 Because the ma-
jorities against him are diminishing !" But how would lie
have exclaimed if this argument bad been used against him in
the year 1782, when we lost a division by a majority of one;
and on the next question gained it by a majority of 16? The
ministry of that time had the spirit to resign when they lost
the support and confidence of parliament, —circumstances es-
sentially necessary in thriller ministers; but the love of power
and station has, in the present minister of the crown, always
predominated over every other consideration. I have been
much myself in the habit of differin g, from a majority, but it
was on public points in which I had no concern as their ser-
vant. If I had at any time found the sense of the House
against me as a minister, I should immediately have resigned,
and said, 44 You must find some other instrument to do your
business, for I will never be agent in any cause I (10 not ap-
prove." Mr. Fox, with infinite point, and infinite success,
combated all Mr. Pitt's positions, avowing a determined reso-
lution to enter into no terms with the ministers of the crown
while they continued in office.


Tbe_ motion was agreed to without a division.
AA 3





35 8 COMMITTEE ON THE STATE OF THE NATION. [Jan. 29;


MR. FOX'S MosuoN" TO ADJOURN THE COMMITTEE ON THE
STATE OF THE NATION.


January 29.
r`tr-TIE order of the day being read for going into a conunittee


on the state of the nation,


Mr. Fox said, this was the day in which it was intended
to resume the committee on the state of the nation. He re-
gretted, that when this order had been made, the circum.:
stances in which it originated were not so effectually changed
as to occasion in his mind any substantial reason against a
literal compliance with it. The House and the public still
saw, to their sorrow, a ministry in this country retaining
their situations hi direct opposition to the House of Commons.
They saw the servant of the crown claiming the privilege of
setting up his single' opinion in opposition to theirs. They
saw an obvious intention of putting all their resolutions and
measures at defiance. Was it not resolved, after the most
solemn and deliberate discussion of a very full House, that
the continuance in office of tlie present ministry, who came
in on secret influence, and were supported by every sort of
influence except that of a public and avowed one, was disho-
nourable to parliament, and injurious to the service of the
country ?




It was on account of their occupying this very singular
and unsatisfactory ground, that their conduct had engrossed
so much of the attention of the House. And were matters
now altered fbr the better? What new facts had been stated;
what other reasons assigned than those already heard from
the -right honourable gentleman? The House consequently
was reduced to the disagreeable and mortifying situation of
being insulted and despised with impunity. Was this an
honourable or decent situation for such an assembly to be
placed in? It was a situation in which ministers could do no
public good whatever. National affairs were perfectly at a
stand. And why ? The right honourable gentleman said he
would insist that his judgment was preferable to the collected
wisdom of the House.


But let gentlemen consider what the present state of' the
public is. Is not the business of the public at a stand?
What is it that can be carried on of any consequence to the
community at large, while the ministry and the l'epresenta-!


784.] COMMITTEE ON THE STATE OF THE NATION. 3 59


tives of the people are at variance? He knew not what facts
the right honourable gentleman might be in the humour to
deny; but he was perfectly founded in saying, that whatever
depended on the concurrence of parliament, was by his per-
tinacity or obstinacy perfectly at a stand. •


In what business, then, were ministers engaged? The
world were not to learn that much private favour had been
lately distributed. But would ministers and their partizans
say with what view these valuable gifts were vouchsafed?
Was it not to strengthen, stimulate, and promote certain
views which had excited ministers to increase a body of men
which it was their object to render inimical to the constitu-
tional influence of that House? This was a project which
evidently originated, with the secret advisers of the crown,
whose interest it was to vilify and traduce the representatives
of the crown ;. and those who would thus stoop to be their
tools, their instruments, and their creatures, were always sure
of encouragement at court. The confidence of the House of
Commons, of the public, and of the world at large, was no
object, no recommendation to them. But in proportion as
they conciliated the good opinion of the public, in proportion
as they stood well with the House, in proportion as their
measures were likely to be of general advantage, in the same
proportion would they be condemned, censured, and expelled
the confidence, the caresses, and the favour of the sovereign.
What, then, signified a majority of the House of Commons
to a minister who stood on such a ground? It might serve
him to carry a few necessary measures, but would never ex-
hibit him as an eligible servant of the crown. No. It was
only in so far as he deviated from the constitution, as he
showed a contempt for the opinion of the people, as he pre-
ferred his own judgment to that of parliament, that he would
gain in the royal esteem, or merit the approbation and sup-
port of those who were constantly exercised in whispering
the worst things of the best men.


These were the glorious and important purposes for which
the whole patronage of the crown had devolved on them,
and was used with all the licentiousness and partiality of pri-
vate property ! He always expected to be told on such topics
as this, that the prerogatives of the crown were not to be im-
paired or restrained. He was the last man who would ever
wish to see one of the three estates stript of any of those
powers with which it was legally invested. But were not all
those powers originally given with a view to the public ser-
vice? He would be glad to know how such an object as this
could be served by the late creations which had taken place.
lie trusted nothing he said would be understood in any,de-


AA




360 COMMITTEE ON THE STATE OF THE NATION. [Jan. 29•
gree as personal; but he thought it his duty to mention the
interest which, as it struck him, the public undoubtedly had.
in whatever either directly or indirectly affected their interest.
He would insist on it, that ministers were responsible to the
House of 'Commons for the exercise of- every prerogative be-
longing to the crown. It was in the House of Commons, or
by ''the people in their original capacity, that every exertion


those powers which distinguished the sovereign of the em-
pire, were ultimately to be tried, and in proportion as they
answered the primary intention of their institution, be ac-
quitted or condemned.


Now, however, the secret came out on which the present
arrangement proceeded; they forfeited the confidence of the
House, or, what was the same thing, . treated it with the
greatest contempt, because it ensured them a welcome re-


. ception from their private employers. Their conduct was
therefore no longer a mystery to the public. It was written
in the most legible characters. They not only opposed their
own official consequences to that of the House, but by their
obstinacy and temerity established a most melancholy and
dangerous variance between the sovereign and the people.
Through the medium of this ill-omened administration, the
subjects at large and their supreme magistrate were taught to
regard each' other with jealousy and mistrust. This was-one
capital object of their system, and it was undoubtedly well
calculated for attaining its end.


To what lengths the House would be justified in going
under such a circumstance, it did not become him to say;
but neither would any one opposite to him pretend to affirm
that parliament was not defied by ministers. Why did they
not condescend to gratify the public, to meet the wishes of
the people, to sacrifice their attachment to place for the
sake of restoring tranquillity to the country, and confidence
in an administration which might do the business of the
people as it ought to be done? Who did not remember to
whom the interregnum of last year was owing ? flow was
the interval of public business then filled up? Things were
then done which the nation could not soon forget; and they
were done under the same circumstances of public discon-
tent, and the same instruments which gave them their forma-
lity and effect. A similar indignity to the country in the eyes
of all Europe was now going forward ; was perpetrating in
open day ; was insulting those radical and hitherto undisputed
powers which the constitution had lodged in the House of
Commons. All the world were witnesses to a farce which the
present actors could only submit to play. -They kept the
country without a government at a period when the pressure


1784.] COMMITTEE ON THE STATE OF THE NATION. 361


of public business never was greater ; for at this time it could
not be said we had in fact any thing like an effective govern-.
rent. He trusted in God men's minds would soon be awake
to the ridicule of their own situation, and that they would
save the British name from that ignominy, that contempt, in-
separable from rulers of such a description.


But how long were they destined to continue under all the
disadvantages of such an executive power, which was altoge-
ther destitute of energy, of influence, of respectability ? How
was the House of Commons, thus irritated and insulted, to
conduct itself? He had conceived from their late conduct
the best opinion of their resolution, their sense of dignity,
and their attention to their honour and privileges as a body;
he should therefore hope they never would suffer themselves
to fall into the snare thus laid for them by those who wished,
and only waited to take every possible advantage that might
arise from their conduct in a situation thus critical and trying.
They had already disappointed those who had thus proved
them, by a temper, a moderation, and a magnanimity, which'
did them the highest honour. This was the calm, the deli-
berate, and the manly line of conduct in which he hoped
they would persevere, and from which no temerity, no haugh-
tiness, no obstinacy from those individuals who had set them-
selves against them, would ever tempt them to depart. He
recommended firmness without obstinacy, and moderation
without pusillanimity, as that which, notwithstanding every
consequence, would still justify the strongest measures in the
eyes of the public.


He therefore proposed the House should adjourn till Mon-
day, when if nothing occurred to give public affiiirs a more
favourable aspect, it would certainly be necessary to resume
the committee on the state of the nation. The few days
respite which such an adjournment would afford might be
employed as those which were passed had been. He trusted
the well-meant endeavours of such as wished to produce some-
thing like an union, might"not again prove abortive: But
he was bound in conscience once for all to declare, that
while the present ministry retained their situations, every
effort of that kind, however laudable and well intended, must
be useless and unavailable.


f Mr. Pitt objected to the mode of arraignment thus constantly
adopted by those . on the opposite side of the House. Against all
that very high language thus personally addressed to him, he would
only oppose his simple assertion, as no more argument was used on
one side than . he should affect on the other. Indeed he doubted
not the House would think with him that such a torrent of erimi




362 COMMITTEE ON THE STATE OF THE NATION. [Jan. 29,
nating assertions were not by any facts whatever to be established.
He was conscious to himself no part of his public life or official
conduct stood in the least need of any apology. The delicacy of
his present situation required discretion. He was determined to
sustain it with as much firmness and decency as he could. This
resolution was the result of deliberation, and no invective or
aspersion which the righ t


honourable gentleman could throw out
should divert him from that sort of behaviour he had already pur.
sued ; he could only act in so far as his own judgment directed
him. This direction he trusted would not lead him into any very
palpable mistake ; and while he retained a confidence of this kind,
it was in vain to expect he would he the dupe of any other.—Lord
North much approved of his right honourable friend's motion for
adjournment. He was certain of his proceeding in every thing
with manliness and decency. Ile knew his sensibilities to he
strong ; but these were under the controul of a sound mind and
an incorruptible heart.—Earl Nugent said, that he for one did
not believe that a majority of that House were ready to subscribe
to the administration of a dictator, and to receive again into the
public service the author of the East India bill. To the right
honourable gentleman, personally, he had no objection ; be thought
his talents were of a commanding and superior nature ; that his
genius was profound and inexhaustible; his mind firm and adven-
turous. He would go farther ; he was read y to say, that in such
a moment as the present, the country stood in need of such a mi-
nister. We could not go on in the beaten path ; we could not be
saved by the common quality of measures ; we wanted the activity
of such a man as the right honourable gentleman ; but he wished
to see him only making the part of an administration, not mono-
polizing the power. His aid, his assistance, would give vigour and
energy to any system ; but the constitution of this country would
not admit that the sole and dictatorial power should be vested in
one man. It was therefore his opinion that the majority of that
House were not prepared to see the right honourable gentleman
rise in his air-balloon, and elevate himself over the constitutional
heads of the state. A great deal of clamour had been set up
against secret advisers, and the secret influence of the crown : he
did not believe that those who excited the clamour, believed that
there was any such thing as the dangerous influence of secret
advice. It was now asserted with a very high tone, that a noble
earl had no right to go into the closet of the king to give his ma-
jesty advice, although that noble earl was by his rank and fortune
set in so distinguished a place in the country, and though he was
so deeply involved in its interests. It was the clear and indispu,,
table right of every citizen to give advice to his majesty when he
was called upon to do so ; and he must be allowed to say, that
the noble earl, by his high rank and fortune, was much better in,
titled to give advice to the crown than those who possessed not the
same pretensions, and who at least had not the same reasons for
exerting themselves in the deliverance of their country, God
forbid, he said, that he should presume to search into the hearts
and motives of men. He wished to speak of them only from Op,


1784.] COMMITTEE ON THE STATE OP THE NATION. 363
pearances ; and on this ground, he said, that judging between the
noble earl who had been arraigned for giving advice to his majesty,
and those who arraigned him, appearances were in favour of
the noble earl ; appearances were in favour of him who had a
great stake in the country, rather than of those who had much
to hope for and little to lose. Here the noble lord was called to
order.


Mr. Fox begged leave to remark on a few assertions which
had fallen from the noble lord who spoke last. The noblo,
lord had complained that he had employed improper influence
in affairs of state, and had affirmed, that he had nbt a better
right to tender his advice to majesty on the great political
concerns of the country, than a noble earl of distinguished
rank, and of considerable fortune. These assertions were
false ; and when the House called the noble lord to order on
his expressing them, it acted in every respect agreeably to its
own forms and its own dignity. Did the noble lord recollect,
that at the period when the advice to which he had alluded
was given by the noble earl, when that secret influence had
been employed which had interested the attention and drawn
down the indignation of the House, he was acting as the re-
sponsible minister of the crown, the authorised adviser of
majesty, and as such, had he not an official title superior to
the noble earl, or to any other person, 'to advise his majesty
on the great national concerns of this realm ? He was eon-
fident that there was no person who attended to these circum-
stances but would admit their truth, and allow that the conduct
of the noble earl to whom reference had been made, was an
encroachment on the privileges, and a direct invasion of the
rights of ministers. The noble lord had rested much on the
extensive fortune of the noble earl who had employed his in-
fluence with majesty. He had spoken of this circumstance
as conveying a superior title to that of any other person, not
comprehended within the same description, to counsel the
crown, and to mingle in the affairs of the country. He had
expressed a distrust in the political integrity of men who
had much to gain, and nothing to lose. This was a language
to which he had not been unaccustomed. Et was a language
which was founded in no constitutional maxim, and which he
had ever reprobated as unfriendly to that spirit of equality,
mid to that importance which every individual claimed, and
was entitled to in this country. Did not the noble lord know,
or was he so much blinded by the affluence of his fortune, or
the distinction of his situation, as not to perceive, that it was
not the men of the greatest estate who either possessed the
greatest virtue, or were entitled to the greatest share of re-




364 COMMITTEE ON THE STATE OF THE NATION. [Jan. 29;


pute in the kingdom. He stood up for men of small pro-
perty. He knew them to be as honest as men of affluence,
and as subservient to the interests of the country.


-Was it
not the collected property of such persons that constituted the
greatness of the nation, abridged the power of the rich, and
rescued them from the tyranny of affluent oppressors? Was
there any ground, therefore, for the noble lord's affected
degradation, or affected distrust of such characters ? Such
observations might be adapted to flatter the pride, or to give
false consequence to the character of men of fortune ; but
they were surely founded in no rational principles, and were
the arguments, not of a man of sense, but of a man of estate.
Look at different countries, trace the sources of their afflu-
ence, and it will be found that these originate not in the
separate and detached fortunes of scattered individuals, but
in the united and collected riches of less opulent subjects.


The noble Lord had asked the House if they were prepared
for the reception into office of a dictator, who had framed arid
patronised the India bill ? Did the noble lord recollect to
whom he made that appeal ? It was to the very House that
had given its sanction to that bill. For his


• own part, he
should always rejoice in the flattering reception it had given to
that bill. Its principles he had defended. They had met
with the approbation of the House; a circumstance as ho-
nourable to him, ,as the rejection of another bill, framed on
a different ground, was disrespectful to its author. To assert,
therefore, that any demerit was imputable to him on this
.account, was insulting the sentiments, and arraigning the
decisions of the House. It was an assertion grounded in pre-
judice, unsupported by argument, and unfounded in common
sense.


He himself was no dictator, nor did the party to which he
had attached himself, and of whose coincidence of sentiment
with that of his own he was proud to boast, assume the air
or the character of dictators. He had never renounced his
allegiance to that House. He had never stood fbrth, in op-
position to its decisions, the avowed and unconstitutional ad,
vocate of royal prerogative. He had never called himself
the minister of the crown. He had always acted agreeably
to the decisions,.of the House, and the interest of his consti-
tuents. If such was the conduct of a dictator, if such were
the sentiments' of a dictator, he was bold to acknowledge
them, and to avow that he gloried in them.


Much had been said of the subordinate appointments of
that administration with which he had the honour and the
happiness to be connected. He was convinced that merit
had, on this point, ever been the rule of decision,. 1-1°


1184.] MOTION roil AT EFFICIENT ADMINISTRATION. 365


therefore challenged and dared enquiry on this ground, and
would even hazard his reputation on the decision of this
question.


The noble lord had affected a disrespect for the late reso-
lutions of the House, respecting the present administration.
These he had treated in a manner not altogether becoming
the character of a member of the House. These resolutions,
however, he thought himself bound to believe Well founded, till
such time as they were rescinded, or as they appeared to him to
rest on false grounds. The noble lord had expressed a hope,
that they would soon be rescinded. He wished to meet the
noble lord on this ground. He hoped he would make a
motion for this purpose at a subsequent meeting, not far dis-
tant. He wished therefore to rescue himself; his friends, and
the House from the false imputations of the noble lord. His
character and his principles he had never laboured to con-
ceal; with respect to them he challenged enquiry. He was
conscious of his own integrity, and confirmed in the rectitude
of his own conduct by the repeated resolutions of the House.
He had never assumed the character of a dictator. He had
never appeared as the mean candidate of popular approbation.
He hail never stood forth the unconstitutional champion of
prerogative. He had never attempted to destroy the equality
and importance of individuals by trying them by their pro-
perty ; nor had he ever asserted, that the great and opulent
were the only persons that merited the attention of the sove-
reign, or respect from the legislative or executive admini-
stration of the country. These were charges from which he
was exempt, and which he hoped would never be laid at his
door.


The motion of adjournment was then put and agreed to,


Ma. GROSVENOR'S MOTION FOR AN EFFICIENT, EXTENDED,
AND UNITED ADMINISTRATION.


Feb may 2.
nN the 26th of January, a meeting of such members of the House


of Commons as were anxious to promote a coalition of parties,
met at the St. Alban's Tavern. Their numbers amounted to near
seventy ; and an address was immediately agreed to and signed, and
ordered to be presented by a committee of their body to the Duke
tot Portland and Mr. Pitt, The address was expressed in the fol.!.




366 MOTION FOR AN EF1'ICIENT ADMINISTRATION. [Feb. 2,


lowing terms: " We, whose names are hereunto signed, members
of the House of Commons, being fully persuaded that the united
efforts of those in whose integrity, abilities, and constitutional prin.
ciples we have reason to confide, can alone rescue the country from
its present distracted state, do join in most humbly entreating them
to communicate with each other on the arduous situation of public
affairs, trusting, that by a liberal and unreserved intercourse be.
tween them, every impediment may be rerximtcd to a cordial co_
operation of great and respectable characters, acting on the same
public principles, and entitled to the support of independent and
disinterested men." In answer to this address, both parties ex.
pressed themselves desirous of complying With the wishes of so re•
spectable a meeting ; but the Duke of Portland conceived that lie
could not have any interview with Mr. Pitt, for the purpose of union,
so long as the latter held his situation as prime minister, in defi-
ance of the resolutions of the House of Commons. On the other
hand, Mr. Pitt declined resigning, either actually or virtually, as 'a
preliminary to negotiation. In order to co-operate with and assist
the exertions of the meeting at the St. Alban's, Mr. Thomas Gros.
venor, the chairman of that meeting, moved on the and of February
in the House of Commons, " That it is the opinion of this House,
that the present arduous and critical situation of public afilirs re-
quires the exertion of a firm, efficient, extended, united adminis-
tration, entitled to the confidence of the people, and such as may
have ,,a tendency to put an end to the unfortunate divisions and dis-
tractions of this country." The motion was seconded by Captain
James Luttrell, supported by Mr. Powys, Sir Peter Burrell, Mr. Fox,
Mr. Byng, and Lord North; and opposed by Sir George Cornwall,
Sir Edward Astley; Mr. Martin, Sir Cecil Wray, Governor
Johnstone, Mr. Pitt, Mr. Hammet, and Mr. Rolle.


Mr Fox said, lie adopted the motion with the utmost readi-
ness. He would not, however, consider it, or have it consi-
dered by the House, as including a sense which it did not bear,
and with which those who acted with him could not agree.
It was, in his apprehension, substantially the same with that
which the public expected this day from the House. It went
to all the points which gentlemen could wish, as it expressed a
sentiment in which the public seemed not a little cordial,
namely, that the present situation of this country with respect
to an administration, was, at least, not altogether satisfactory.


In such an idea he doubted not every one was ready to join.
He did not, indeed, conceive how a different opinion could be
entertained. At least, all those who contradicted this idea,
were, in his mind, bound to shew that all the House had been
doing fin. seine time back was radically and essentially wrong.
Conceiving the proposition as thus stated, be would give it his
firmest and most cordial support, which lie begged the Housebn
would believe he would not do from any motives of accommo-
dation whatever. The sense in which he understood it, as


784.] MOTION, FOR AN EFFICIENT ADMINISTRATION. 367
stated to the House, struck his mind as a complete approba-
tion of all those steps which the conduct of ministry had im-
posed on them, and which they could not depart from till the
ministry set them an example of relinquishing their situation.
It gave decision to their proceedings, and proclaimed aloud
that they were not content with those who at present filled the
ostensible departments of state. And he would be glad to see
the man who would give the negative to this proposition.
What but this discontent, this ominous, this portentous dis-
content, could have proved such a bar to public business?


Under this notion of the resolution now moved, lie felt it
his duty to recal the attention of the House to a variety of to-
pics, of which no man who revolved in his mind the dissentions
which at present prevailed, could be wholly ignorant. These
constituted the subject of every public and private circle in the
kingdom, and very justly, seeing that they involved whatever
was clear to men, either as individuals or members of one great
-society, whose happiness depended on the issue of the present
dispute.


Gentlemen were not to learn that the weakness of any ad-
ministration, in rendering it inefficient, must -also render it a
bad one to this country. For what was to be done without a
parliament? How were public affairs to be carried on against
the representatives of the people, not only without their
concurrence, but in flat opposition to their desire? Thus cir-
cumstanced, the best man on earth would be inadequate to such
a situation. The government of this country did not require
ability or virtue singly or combined, nor any other personal
qualities of the most popular description possible to conceive.
But all these united were absolutely insignificant without such
an influence as would always carry the House along with it on
every material and interesting question.


Why, then, did the House make it a point to remove the pre-
sent servants of the crown? Not certainly from any personal
motives or aversions, but solely because their retaining their
situation on the grounds of an undue and unconstitutional in-
fluence was an impediment to the progress of national business.
This was an object on which the several resolutions of the
House, concerning the aukward condition in which they stood,
in regard to the executive power, undoubtedly were founded ;
and till these were Clone away, it was impossible any solid
union, any form of union whatever, between the two sides of
the House, could take place.


His opinion of such an union as had been desired, was no
secret. He thanked God the personal sacrifices which he was
or might be called to make, would prove no obstacle whatever.
A punctilio between persons merely, was pitiful and absurd




368 MOTION FOR AN EFFICIENT ADMINISTRATION. [Feb. 2.
indeed, where so much was at stake : no man could expect any
thing like a relinquishment of principle or honour ; and these
great and essential qualities secured,- what had any man, who
wished well to his country, which he would not renounce in
her favour? Was it personal consequence or personal pride
which could stand a moment in competition with duty ? He,
for one, detested the imputation. The present state of the
country demanded a permanent administration, and where was
the individual who did not think himself bound by every obli-
gation which could attach the heart and affections of a man to
his country, to mankind, to contribute all in his power towards
effecting this great event ?


He trusted at the same time it would, as it well deserved,
be remembered that they were not now settling any point of
ceremony among persons. The punctilio which remained to
be adjusted was, in fact, between the House and the servants
or servant of the crown ; and the question now to be decided
was, whether his opinion, his authority, or that of the House
was to prevail? Should he be able to support himself against
a majority of the House, then the business of the public was
at an end; or should his obstinacy and lingering in office
weary those who had hitherto opposed him of doing their duty,
and by that means secure him ultimately such a majority mere-
ly as might carry on the objects of parliamentary discussion,
from that moment the constitution would be irrecoverably
ruined. This great object stared every man of sense in the
face. It was big with mischief, as terminating in a dissolution
of that divine constitution which had already subsisted so long
and- so gloriously.


The prerogatives of the crown were mentioned by two ho-
nourable baronets, as not a little affected by the conduct of the'
House; and one of them had expressly declared, that so far as
it interfered with that of the crown chusing its own ministers,
he could not go with it. He was sorry it had so happened
during tins important debate, that the distinction which the
constitution had established between a free and an absolute mo-
narchy, had required so often to be stated. He declared, that
the most consummate ruin would be the inevitable and imme-
diate consequence of carrying any of those prerogatives which
distinguished the respective estates of the constitution to excess-.
Were this House on all occasions to be constantly overawed
by prerogative ? Were the royal powers which tile constitu-
tion vested in the crown intended to have such an operation ?
No man, he trusted, would hold such opinions ; no man dared
to hold such language in a free parliament.


Many were the prerogatives of the commons; but who
would affirm that these were intended to act in a manner op-


t()


1784.] MOTION FOR AN EFFICIENT ADMINISTRATION. 369


posite to, or inconsistent with the public welfare? It was pre-
cisely the same case in both. His majesty had undoubtedly
the power of chusing his own ministers, and the House of
Commons of assigning the supplies. But were the one to take
into his service any men, or set of men, most desirable to the
royal inclination, without any regard to how such an appoint-
ment might operate on the public, might not the House, with
the same propriety, withhold the purse of the people? Both
extremes. ought to be avoided, because equally injurious to
public welfare and . that constitution which depends on the
tendency of all its separate and combined virtues to this one
great and substantial object.


This he stated only to show how carefully the several powers
of the constitution were guarded against that proneness to abuse
or prostitution which still adhered to all executive governments;
and we were undoubtedly taught by it this important lesson,
that tile crown was endowed with no faculty whatever of a pri-
vate nature; that all its functions were instituted for public be-
nefit; andthat whenever they were otherwise employed, the
constitution and the country were essentially affected.


But why had this House so much interest in the choice of
ministers ? And why were all the operations of the constitu-
tion endowed with this public tendency? The reason which
to his mind was perfectly satisfactory, was, that Et the busi-
ness of the public was only so many actions of confidence and
trust, the minister was consequently under the necessity of
possessing their good opinion in a very eminent degree, in or-
(Ileierntto. be qualified for guiding an active and vigorous govern-


in voting for the army extraordinaries, .in voting especially
for the navy, and in voting for a variety of other things, he
considered the House as voting literally, and in every sense of
the word, so much credit. How, then, was the minister, who
opposed a majority of the House, to possess this influence?
Flow could lie command these things, which must, however,
be done, and without which there could be no government, no
constitution, not even the vestiges of what we had always
been,—a people not less illustrious for our liberty than for our
greatness? While", therefore, the duty of a minister consisted
in coalescing with a majority in parliament, and in bowing to
their decision, it was madness to think of existing a moment
In such a capacity without that necessary and constitutional
:upport. It was here they were to look for a sanction to all
their measures, where they might expect an assistance equal
to the exigency, and where they would always find an
asylum from those who disliked and wished to destroy t`
I his v.ox7.id give them dignity and weight, and second ali theirt.-




:37
MOTION FOR AN EFFICIENT ADMINISTRATION. [Feb. 2,


exertions. But without this, no sort of influence, whether per-
sonal or relative, would do them any credit, or bring them
any solid sanction. His worthy colleague (Sir Cecil Wray)
had referred to the people; and another honourable gentleman
had stated it as hard, that for the sake of mere punctilio, the
House should be obliged to address his majesty, to change his.
ministers, or the people to displace one who possessed their
confidence.


He thought it was but fair that the matter should be stated
correctly to the House. It was a good argument to say the
people of England were not represented sufficiently, when that
was the subject before the House, as it then had its natural in-
fluence, and answered the purpose for which it was intended.
It was an unfair, and not a true mode of reasoning, to say that
this House was not a full representation of the people, there-
fore its authority was of no weight in the constitution. Did
not this give the crown such a manifest advantage in the con-
stitution as put it in imminent danger? Might he not say,
since by your own confession, the people are not represented,
the House of Commons must be insignificant and useless: the
business of the country can better, more expeditiously, and
with greater unanimity, be carried on without it?


In that case, where were the people of this country to look
for relief or find protection ? Not certainly in the House of
Lords. For however that part of the legislature operated, no
Man would say it ever could be of any consequence as one of
the great barriers of freedom. The only constitutional asylum
of genuine liberty, he knew, even in this land of liberty, was
the House of Commons, where the people of England assem-
bled by their delegates and claimed a weight in the govern-
ment, which they did in no other kingdom in the world. He
wished gentlemen, therefore, would beware of extending their
wishes for a reform of the representation any farther than was'
just. That the House was, in its present constitution, .but
an imperfect representation of the Commons of England, no
man was more ready to own, and no man would g e feether
lengths than he would in accomplishing a reform in that very
material particular. But it was improperly applied to the pre-.
sent question ; for it went to annihilate that system of repre-
sentation, which it would be dangerous to do before there
was a better in its room.


The honourable baronet, too, had appealed, for the sense
of the people, to the variety of addresses which were manufae.
turing, probably for the purpose of flattering the present ad-
ministration. These at least were conjured up in such a mall.;


n
or, made their appearance in such a questionable shape,


owed their existence to such means, that, in. his opinion, they
I o


1784.] MOTION FOR AN EFFICIENT ADMINISTRATION. 37 1


might well damn a very strong, but could never prove any very
solid support to a weak and tottering administration. He
could only speak of those places of the country which he knew;
and many of these were certainly not the least respectable
in the kingdom. But in these all was hitherto sullen silence.
No one more patriotic than others had yet, in a variety of the
most capital counties in the kingdom, come forward, and urged
this acceptable measure. , In Middlesex his worthy colleague
would own there did not seem any very active propensity for
a measure thus courtly and desirable. The artifices used so
near at hand were no inexpressive specimens of those which,
being at a greater distance from the scene of action, could
be the more perfectly accomplished, without that ridicule and
contempt which were the certain concomitants of detection.


He had also heard of an address in the city of Westmin-
ster, which undoubtedly was one of the most curious and
singular that ever was carried any where, or by any indivi-
duals, of any description. This would, to be sure, flourish,
as well as another of the same sort, in a gazette; but he
believed his own colleague, fond as he seemed to be of such
a mode of collecting the opinion of the people, would not
like to join the party who should present such an address at
St. James's. He, for his own part, was astonished that any
ministry or party could be so eager to retain their situation,
or so solicitous for a confidence they had forfeited, as to think
that the good sense of the people of England were to be thus
abused. To imagine that practices of this description would
conciliate the good opinion of the public, was in fact treat-
ing them with indignity and insult. A device so shallow
and barefaced was enough to ruin the best cause; and were
it even to be adopted by the best men, would also ruin them:
lie trusted the people of this country would not rashly take
their opinion from a medium so grossly and palpably partial.
Indeed, there was at present no other legal way of learning
what the general voice was but the sense of the House; anon
by that, till another, a better, and a more decisive one took
place, they were bound by the constitution, strictly, firmly,
l iterally, and uniformly to abide.


Here, then, was the great obstacle to that desirable union
which so respectable a body of individuals in that House had
so much at heart. The right honourable the chancellor of
the exchequer, for no reason he has dei gned to give, willconsent to resign a situation, which it were treachery to the
House, to the public, to the constitutiop, to admit. The
resolutions of the House were opposed to him as the minister
!)f the crown. Whether, therefore, are these to be supported
III opposition to the minister, or the minister in opposition


B 2




372 MOTioN rote, AN EFFICIENT ADMINISTRATION. [Feb. 2


to these? Would such a competition bear a question in this
House? He does hold his head Melt enough, but the dig-
nity of the House must not yield to him, nor to any indi-
vidual whatever. What reasons has he once condescended
to produce for his strange, unprecedented conduct? Can he
imagine that this House are to credit his bare assertions, in
flat opposition to the most decisive circumstances? Might
it not be expected that any one in such a situation would be
glad to afford the House every satisfaction in their power?
Has he in any case whatever signified the least inclination of
this kind ? And what construction less than a direct insult to
the dignity of parliament, not to mention the feelings of in-
dividuals, can such a demeanour bear?


But the right honourable gentleman, with the most pro-
vident attention to those affairs which his peculiar obstinacy
so essentially mars and deranges, must see the probability
of a firm and efficient administration before he gave way
to the wishes of the people. This very odd kind of a rea-
son was easily accounted for from his. official relation to the
learned gentleman (.Ir. Dundas) who sits with him on the
same bench. He, for one, would not easily forget the Lin,
guage of that learned gentleman on an occasion similar to
the present in one sense, though extremely dissimilar in
another. When his noble friend in the blue ribbon, (Lord
North,) had been urged to retire from office, the learned
gentleman, who will always resist such arguments against
his own party with all his ability, was anxious to know among
the. candidates then for office, who were most qualified to
succeed; and this he urged as a reason for the former mi-
nistry keeping their situations, that those who had, as he
thought, an eye to their places, were not in unison among
themselves. But how did the right honourable gentleman
turn that argument? Why, said he, are those on this side
of the House to be catechised, because you on that are in-
adequate to your situation? An answer which, if good then,
must be good still. Then, with what propriety could this
be assigned as the ground on which the minister keeps his
place, since it might have been much more appositely urged
when he assumed it? Those whom he succeeded made use
of no such language. They knew their duty was obedience,


• and they submitted. But surely if there can he any force
in the reasoning, it was then much stronger than now. What
probability had the right honourable gentleman to erect a
solid and permanent ministry against those who possessed a
majority of this Douse, of so decided and complete a kua
as has hardly been exemplified in our times?


He would not, therefore, say how far the precedent might


T 784.] MOTION FOR AN EFFICIENT ADMINISTRATION. 373
go. He would not use the indecent language of calling
any individual in that House a dictator. He trusted par-
liament would ever prove equal to its own protection, espe-
cially \against the ambition of its own members. But he
was not a little apprehensive, that this enormous power might
one day be assumed by the crown. For where was the in-
dependence or freedom of the House, when once a ministry
was admitted over whom they had no check ? This, in his
mind, was a state of insignificance, beneath which they could
not be degraded; and he did trust they would not now
suffer any thing whatever to have this fatal effect on the
House and the constitution. At the same time, though he
was sincerely of opinion the right honourable gentleman
meant nothing unconstitutional in his own favour, his con-
duct went immediately to put the crown in the situation of
dictator to that House. It deprived them of that controul
over every branch of the executive power which they were
meant by the constitution to have.


The motion now before the House aimed at a broad and
extensive union of parties. The very respectable gentlemen
with whom it originated had this in contemplation when
they agreed to put it to a vote. He had stated what struck
him as some of the most apparently insurmountable obsta-
cles which still stood in the way of this desirable event. For
his part, he had no objections to the men, but to the mode
in which they had conic into power. This was the fatal
precedent which this House could not get over, and which
he, for one, would not by any means, or on any considera-
tion whatever, give way to.


It had been said by the honourable gentleman who se-
conded the motion, that neither of the two leaders who di-
vided the House could defend themselves without the other.
This statement of the fact he begged leave to dispute. What-
ever their relative situation might now be, while the con-
stitution had continued uniufriuged, a more complete and
flattering majority had never accompanied any administrtv-
tion. He would consequently beg that the relative strength
of the parties might not be stated in their present unequal
situations. The fair and only just way of comparing them
was, by attending to those majorities which they commanded
in a similar situation ; and here the comparison palpably
halted. This, however, be did not mention as any hindrance
on his part to what was so much the wish of the House. He
never find at any time of his life dealt in general proscription.
It had always been a maxim of his, that when the cause of
animosity ceased, there should be an end of animosity. It
Was on this great principle he had coalesced with his noble


Ian 3'




3 74 MOTION FOIL AN EFFICIENT ADMINISTRATION. [Feb. e.
friend. He held it unmanly and unjust in an extreme degree
to insist on proscription without retrospection ; to condemn
any man, and yet refuse him a fair trial. Those gentlemen
were consequently consistent with themselves, who, while
they condemned the coalition, were still for calling his noble
friend to an account. This reasoning would sufficiently
evince how well prepared he was even for a coalescence with
those, whose present unconstitutional situation he could not
but censure. Many who now .


held offices under the crown
might still hold them in a manner more honourable to them-
selves, as well as more beneficial to the public. Among
these, the right honourable gentleman would always occupy
a capital department with every administration to whom he
could attach his talents and exertions.






Here the great hinge of the business rested. Find some
expedient to annihilate. this difficulty, and he doubted not
every lesser one would give way. There were, however,
several of these, which some gentlemen on both sides might
consider as not easily to be got over. Their notions on
India affairs were not identically the same, and that in-
fluence by which they had seised the reins of government
Must be understood, with a variety of other collateral points,
which could only be discussed subsequent to the resigna-
tion of ministers. Gentlemen must not therefore expect,
that in giving way to the union proposed, he could yield
those things which would either dishonour him or the House.
He had gone as far on this delicate subject as he possibly
could go, and he hoped no man would urge him to go
further.


Surely the House could never forget that the present Con-
test was not against men but ministers unconstitutionally
called into office. It was this systematic influence of en.
undue tendency that he had ever struggled against, and which
he would continue to struggle against while he had a seat in
that House. He was surprised not a little that the right
honourable gentleman, in opposition to a principle so plain
and constitutional, should continue as he did to bid defiance
to that majority in parliament by which their decisions were
regulated, and without which no minister had ever pre-
sumed to look the House of Commons in the face. What
could be his object ? Did he imagine that his own arm
would bring salvation to an empire thus reduced by a pri n


-ciple to which the behaviour of the right honourable gentle-
man was so strong a confirmation ? Could any one doubt
that his noble friend would have been still in office but _for\
his resolution to discountenance every appearance of the!
influence which was so perfectly unknown to the constitution?


1784.] MOTION FOR AN EFFICIENT ADMINISTRATION. 3 7


It was a dark, but powerful one, so occult in its operations,
and yet so forcible at the same time, that no individual could
ever be a match for it.


Surely, if this pernicious evil was ever to be redressed by an
individual, the right honourable gentleman's noble father
was equal to the task. He at least had more popularity,
more talents, more success, than any other minister this
country ever had; and he would undoubtedly have clone
much but for one imperfection, which Mr. Fox said lie had
always deemed his greatest. He trusted too much to his
own superior abilities, which, transcendent as they were, were
completely overcome at last by that secret influence which
had since clone so much mischief.


For his part, he was sincerely disposed to the same object.
It had ever, and he hoped ever would have, his cordial ab-
horrence. But he would never go on the Quixote errand
or forlorn hope of thinking his single exertions equal to a
task so enormous. This had determined him to unite
with all the forces he could muster together, and the event
proved how proper his precautions had been, and at the
same time how ineffectual. This object, while it continued
in full force, rendered all the efforts of the House, towards
any reformation in the constitution, nugatory and abortive :
and it mattered not much who were in or who were out,
while the system continued so perfect, unbroken, and con-
nected throughout. It was this baneful system which had
proved so prolific of calamities to this country; and to op-
pose such a system with effect, the House could not depart
from the spirit it had assumed. Was it possible, after con-
sidering these things fairly and deliberately, to account for
the obstinacy of the minister? What motive could prevail
with him thus to tantalize the public, and insult that consti-
tution which constituted our greatest excellence and glory?
By what topics could the secret advisers of his majesty blind
at once the minds of master and servant? How was it
possible for them to find any thing like reason in their
persuasions and importunities on a point so obvious and
torious ? Did they presume to tell the minister that he
would depart from his dignity by acceding to the wishes
of the House? Could he believe that such an idea would cor-
respond with the sentiments of the right honourable gen-
deman, he should not think so highly of him as he did. Where
was the condescension in yielding his own judgment to
theirs? In preferring the collected wisdom of the House to
his own understanding? In his mind, this would be paying
that deference to parliament, which, instead of letting him




B B 4




376 MOTION FOR AN EFFICIENT ADMINISTRATION. [Feb.••I
down, would raise him in the opinion of all who had ally
solid regard for the constitution.


Was it, then, a lessening of majesty to suppose his choice
in this instance to have proved thus abortive? 0 foolish ad-.
visers of their king ! exclaimed Mr. Fox. He whose only
and most glorious throne is in the hearts of a loyal and grate-
ful people, to be thus at variance with their representatives,
does your at-Mee peculiar credit ! Ye would honour him with
the foulest dishonour that ever can happen to,.a sovereign I
We would make him respected all over the world ; we would.
make him a blessing to his subjects; we would make his reign.
happy to himself; and happy to all who are interested in his
prosperity; we. would make him the glorious and patriotic
monarch of a contented and pacific nation : but your coun-
sels are the direct opposite of all this. how do you exhibit
him all over Europe? Not as possessing the cordiality of his
subjects, or in friendship and amity with this House, but as
squabbling and contending against those on whom he depends,
from whom his supplies originate, and without whom his pre-
rogatives are insignificant and useless.


These things he had thus stated, that the conduct of the
House might not be misconstrued and coloured so as to abuse
the public, and give an appearance to their actions contrary.
to the truth ; for it was now as evident as language could
make it, that it was not a contest between parties, or between
any description of men, but between that House and some
individuals who had thought themselves, from what motives
nobody knew, in a condition to despise its resolutions and
its censures. This was no private, no sinister contention, at
least on one side, but an open one, ill which the minister and
the constitution were parties. It could, therefore, be no
question with those who were firm friends of the one, whe-
ther they ought to be connected with the other or not. The
constitution and secret influence were at odds, and the deci-
sion could not be very distant. He, for one, had exerted
himself ever since he came into public life, against that secret.
influence; and he would continue his utmost efforts for the.
annihilation of what h6d ever struck him as the greatest curse
to which this country was subjected.


The way to power by this strange channel was totally in-
consistent with the liberal genius of that freedom which had •
ever been the glory of Englishmen. On this system, what
was a minister in the British House of Commons but a coun-
sel for the crown, against the interest and inclination of the
people, whose power in the scale of the constitution being
thus annihilated, their representatives were the merest cyphers,
and could only have permission to sit in that House while a


1784.] MOTION AGAINST THE CONTINUANCE, &C. 377
shadow of their concurrence was necessary to the demands
of the crown ? They would then find the measure of their
insignificance complete; and the constitution, for which their
ancestors fought and bled so gloriously, would perish by those
very men whom they delegated to be its guardians.


It was, therefore, in his opinion, impossible to recur too
often to the great and only principle at issue. He was con-
sequently prepared for the present motion, and could foresee
that the gentlemen on the other side would oppose it only on
the ground of its not coining home to their ideas of influence,
of its not affording them any covert for their preposterous
conduct. He protested, however, that it was not known to
him before he came into the House, and that he most cor-
dially and sincerely adopted it from the fullest conviction that
it came up to all the ideas of the independent part of the
House on the subject.


The resolution moved by Mr. Grosvenor was agreed to nem.
con.


MR. COKE'S MOTION AGAINST THE CONTINUANCE OF THE
PRESENT MINISTERS IN THEIR OFFICES.


A S soon as Mr. Grosvenor's motion had been agreed to, a se-cond resolution was moved by Mr. Coke, which had for its•
object the reprehension of Mr. Pitts refusal to resign, declaring,
" That it is the opinion of this House, that the continuance of the
present ministers in their offices is an obstacle to the formation of
such an administration as may enjoy the confidence of this House,
and tend to put an end to the unfortunate divisions and distrac-
tions of the country." This motion occasioned much debate.
The ground on which it was combated by Mr. Dundas and others,
was the growing popularity of the new administration ; and the
House was therefore adjured not to provoke the people to go to
the foot of the throne, and implore the crown to rescue them from
its tyranny.


Mr. Fox was happy to find that the learned gentleman
who spoke last, had of late become so attentive to the senti-
ments of his constituents, and of the elective body of this
kingdom. Time was when he had asserted that the voice of
the people was no where to be heard but within those walls ;
and that was the period when the table was loaded with peti-




3 7 3 MOTION AGAINST THE CONTINUANCE [Feb. 2;


tions to the House from all parts of the kingdom. It was at
this time that the learned gentleman had insulted the dignity
of his constituents and of the nation, by asserting the dignity
and the independence of the House of Commons. Now a
different mode of reasoning suits him better, and he has
adopted it. But where is that popularity of the present ad-
ministration on which the noble lord rests? Upon what evi-
dences does it stand ? If this point is so fixed, why are not
the proofs of it more obvious and decided ? Why do


0,
'fill


gentlemen call meetings, muster the friends and partizans
of ministry, and carry their addresses to the throne?
this is done, till the fact is proved, I for one will question its
truth.


But though the popularity of the present administration is
not ascertained, yet I will not hesitate to affirm, that there is
an intention in ministers to establish themselves on afounda,
tion unfriendly to the constitutional privileges of this House.
They court the affection of the people, and.on this founda-
tion they wish to support themselves in opposition to the re,
peated resolutions of this House. Is not this declaring them-


,:
selves independent of parliament? Is not this separating the
House of Commons from its constituents, annihilating our
importance, and avowedly erecting a monarchy on the basis
of an affected popularity, independent of and uncontrolable
by parliament? Such a scheme I can view under no other
aspect but as a system of the basest tyranny, and calculated
to accomplish the ruin of the liberties of the country.


Such a system of' despotism is, indeed, the most likely to
originate in men who carry on their schemes by the machi-
nations of dark intrigue, of men who have stabbed the con-
stitution, by means of a secret influence in one department
of government, and are now prepared to perpetrate similar
assassinations, by methods of the basest corruption, in ano-
ther. I hope, however, that members will attend to these
designs of ministers, masked under the most dangerous and
imposing appearances, and that they will rescue the coun-
try from the hands of those who are only distinguished by the
dirtiness of their political intrigue, and their violations of
the privileges of the House. I hope that such ministers will
filially see the danger of their situation, and that this House
will no longer suffer itself to be insulted by its own mode-
ration.


The learned gentleman has declaimed on a topic often
touched on, namely, that there is no charge against the pre-
sent administration. But has not the House condemned
them on a ground which is decided, which they have not had
the effrontery to deny? If this accusation is not true, why do


1784.]


OP THE PRESENT MINISTERS.
379


not gentlemen come forward and disown it? In such situa-
tions silence is surely the most damning part of guilt, and
better than a thousand witnesses. The learned gentleman,
wishes to deter members from voting on the present occasion,
who have voted for the adoption of the last resolution of the
House. He asserts, that the present motion has a tendency
to destroy unanimity, and to prevent a junction of parties.
But does he reflect, that by refusing to listen to its calls,
ministers more effectually frustrate the intentions and the de-
sires of parliament? They defy the decisions of the House;
and it is they, and they alone, who open those breaches
which at present prevent the union that is so ardently desired.
Whilst a motion, therefore, of the nature of' that on the table
is absolutely expedient, I wish that the world may know who
the persons are who have rendered it necessary.


The proposition before the House is no abstract maxim,
separate from its former resolutions. It is, on the contrary,
connected with, and is a consequence of them. Those, there-
fore, who have voted for the one, are bound and engaged to
vote for the other; and those who separate their assent to the
one, after having given their concurrence to the other, sell
and . betray the dignity, the honour, and the reputation of the
House. It is a maxim in all well-regulated governments,
that a period should be put as soon as possible to civil dis-
tractions. But how are the distractions of the present times
to be remedied ? A middle way of accommodation has been
desired. I know no middle way of accommodation but this,
that ministers descend from their situation, that they resign
their offices, and cease any longer to defy the maxims of their
ancestors, and insult the dignity of the House. I wish, how-
ever, at a crisis of so much consequence, when the reputation
of the House, and the interest of the country is at stake, that
no rash measure may be adopted, that we may pause over
every step in our procedure, and that we may adopt, with
proper solemnity, those measures which must finally restore
the insulted honour of the House. A good deal has been
said respecting the prerogative of majesty to chuse its minis-
ters. The same observation is, however, applicable to this
exertion of privilege as to every other of a similar nature.
The crown has an exclusive right to make peace or war; but
though it is invested with this privilege, would it be safe to
exercise it without consulting parliament ? I am sure it
would not; and I am equally satisfied that the prerogative
in the election of ministers in opposition to the House of
Commons, is a measure as unsafe, as unwarranted, and as
unjustifiable. Reasons have been alleged by the right ho-
nourable gentleman over the way for his retention of place.




38e MOTION AGAINST THE CONTINUANCE, &C. [Feb. 2.


These pretences, however, I must consider as nugatory and
trifling. The right honourable gentleman asks if this motion
is to be followed by an address? This question I will answer
by asking another; namely, 'What will be the consequences
of the present resolution on the right honourable gentleman's
conduct? The sacrifice which the House requires of the right
honourable gentleman is not so humiliating as what he de-
mands of the House. He complains of the distraction and
anarchy which prevail in the country ; but let me ask him,
who is the cause of these calamities? Can an administration
act with vigour without the confidence of the House? Is not
his obstinacy, then, in retaining his place in defiance of Par-
liament, the cause of those evils of which he so pathetically
complains? Attacks have been made on my popularity. My
invasion of chartered rights has been held up as a 'stalking
horse to the public. I have been charged with ambition.
But on what grounds have these accusations been established?
Have I ever set myself in defiance to this House? Have 1
ever sought power through the means of base corruption, or
dark intrigue? No : my ambition has ever raised me above
such modes of preferment. I have never sacrificed my prin-
ciples to popularity, or to my ambition. I have ever acted
openly and fairly. I would rather be rejected, reprobated,
and proscribed; I would rather be an outcast of men in
power, and the follower of the most insignificant minority,
than prostitute myself into the character of a mean tool of
secret influence. I call, therefore, on the country gentlemen
to stand aloof from a ministry who have established themselves.
in power by means so unconstitutional and destructive.


Mr. Pitt threw himself on the candour and justice of the House :
but declared firmly, that he would not by any managements be
induced to resign. To march out of his post with a halter about
his neck, change his armour, and meanly beg to be readmitted,
and considered as a volunteer in the army of the enemy, was an
humiliation to which he would never submit. Sonic of the 'pnem-
bers, who still continued their endeavours to effect a coalition,
wished the previous question to be put on the motion, with a view
to try whether the House would consent to rescind the votes of
censure they had before passed, as a matter of accommodation
declaring, if this was not done, they should consider themselves
as bound to support the present question : that those resolutions
and the present administration ought not to stand together ; that
the authority of the House must be supported, and that the pride
of an individual ought not to stand in the way of it. On the divi-
sion the numbers were,


Tellers. Tellers.
{Lord Maitland i Mr. Steele


YEAS Mr. Byng 223-1""8 ph. Robt. Smith} s04•
So it was resolved in the affirmative.


1784.] RESOLUTION OF TIIE ST. ALBAN'S ASSOCIATION. 381


RESOLUTION or THE ST. ALBAN'S ASSOCIATION AGAINST
THE EXCLUSION OF EITHER PARTY IN FORMING A NEW
MI NISTRY.


February


MIES day Mr. Hussey took occasion to observe, that he sincere-
' ly trusted Mr. Pitt would not let any obstacle which he had


power to remove, stand in the way of an efficient and united adminis-
tration. He hoped the same complying and accommodating disposi-
tion from Mr. Fox. Much and laudably as a very respectable body of
that House had laboured to effect this object, it was still at a dis-
tance. He most ardently wished gentlemen on both sides would,
by such concessions as they could make, cordially and manfully
give way, not to 'each other only, but to the calls and exigencies
of their country ; which, while they were contending, felt the con-
sequences to its vitals. An honourable gentleman in his eye, who
filled the chair in the meeting to which he alluded, would, he trust-
ed, read to the House the Resolution to which they had that day
come ; and he wished the House might seriously attend to it.
Upon this Mr. Charles Marsh= expressed what he thought to be
the unanimous sense of the gentlemen who met at the St. Alban's.
They were earnest in desiring a union of all the virtues and abilities
which the country possessed, in order to effect something like an
adequate remedy against the various evils under which it laboured.
No man had a higher idea of both the two right honourable gentle-
men opposite to each other than he had. Their principles, their
virtues, and their abilities were in his opinion great, and might do
honour to any government in which they could cordially unite.
This was the government in which the wishes, he trusted, of the
whole House, the whole nation, and every one who entertained
any regard for the constitution most undoubtedly centered ; and to
such an idea all the resolutions which the meeting at the St. Alban's
had yet formed were directed ; and none more than the last. He
then read the Resolution, which was to this effect: " That an ad-
ministration, founded on the total exclusion of the members of the
last, or of the present administration, would be inadequate to the
exigencies of the public affairs."


Mr. Fox rose visibly impressed with the same ideas which
had been urged by the former speakers concerning a general
and substantial union of parties. The desire, in his opinion,
which went to this capital object, was as laudable as it was
general, and what little countenance it could derive from him,
he would give it openly, completely, and unequivocally. It
was obvious there could, at least on his part, be no personal
animosity or spleen which might be thought operating to that
effect in the least. He had been generally, and especially of




382 RESOLUTION OF THE ST. ALBAN'S ASSOCIATION. f Feb. 1i.


late, rather too apt to give way where any thing like person-
alities subsisted; and lie trusted it would not be imagined his
mind could be less yielding, where there never was nor ever
could be any such thing. If there were, and those of a more
palpable and irreconcileable nature than any thing he could
imagine, this was not a time to cherish or indulge them : duty
to the community at large, demanded every sacrifice which a
man of honour and of principle could possibly make. This
was not a period that admitted of any adjustment that related
to the little punctilios of personal importance, and he trusted
every public man, who seriously felt the increasing pressure of
public allitirs, would think as he did.


He would not now insist on the various necessities which
urged from every quarter some decisive and immediate remedy.
The news which had so lately arrived of a final adjustment
between the Empress of Russia and the Porte 'was fiti object of
great consequence. He would not discuss at this time the
policy which he foresaw it might produce ; but it required no
great discernment to see that it would go a great way towards
fixing the consequence of this country m the scale of Europe.
Our connection with foreign courts consequently held forth a
most important object of political attention to us, which re-
quired a management to which the confidence of that House
was essential ; and which, according as we acquitted ourselves,
might be productive of the most pernicious consequences.
The very report which had been just made from the committee
on the frauds in the revenue, demanded an immediate and an
effectual attention. If two millions of money could be saved
to the revenue, it became a question why it had not been
saved ? The modes by which frauds to such a large amount
had been practised were various, and must have operated on
the public to a great extent, and with some degree of advan-
tage. Wherever, and on whomever this money might be re-
covered, a burden new and extraordinary must unavoidably
be laid. The reform meditated must affect certain parts of'
the country. However necessary that reform might be, those
parts could hardly be supposed to acquiesce in it cordially.
How, then, could it be effected ? How could the regulations
on which its efficacy and success depended, be executed with-,
out a government acting with the consent and sanction of that
House as well as the crown ? He trusted gentlemen would at-
tend to these circumstances; the credit of the country called
for every species of support which could be


. given it. This
would inevitably occasion new taxes to a very unprecedented
extent. He, fir one, saw no other prospect of relief than by
such impositions as would infallibly produce it. What ad-
ministration, destitute of the confidence and support' of parlia-


17 84.] RESOLUTION OF THE ST. ALBAN'S ASSOCIATION. 383


inent, could effect such an object? The unpopularity attending
such measures as could no longer be withheld in consistency
with public safety, would destroy the most able, active, and in-


, dustrious ministry this country ever saw, without a very great
majority of that House at its back.


These particulars, and a great variety • of others, he stated
with no other view in the world than to urge the necessity of
an immediate union of parties. He, for his own part, saw no
personal objection on either side, and he trusted the right
honourable gentleman saw Bone. The House seemed so ge-
nerally interested, and in some measure agreed in the idea of
a coalition, that he thought them entitled to as full an explana-
tion on that head as he was able to give them. He paid many
compliments to the right honourable gentleman's abilities.
He respected what he had always understood to be his politi-
cal principles. None of these did any one whom he had con-
sulted wish him to renounce. The union he wished to see take
place was an union of principle, and he should not be the more
sure of any man's principles from his readiness to appear im-
plicit in the adoption of his. There could in his apprehen-
sion be no personal contention between the right honourable
gentleman and himself. Whatever might have occurred in the
heat of debate, he trusted they were both alike sensible, meant
nothing personally disrespectful on either side. It was obvious
the right honourable gentleman was not slavishly attached to
the emoluments of office; lie never thought he was, and he re-
)oiced that a late instance had so fully evinced that he was not.He trusted the House would also give him some credit on that
score. No action of his life could be brought up, which in.
the least would fasten any very interested charge against him.
So far their dispositions were not dissimilar. What was the
right honourable gentleman's ambition ? Was it not glory ?
A reputation grafted on the advantage which he trusted the
country might one day reap from his exertions in her service.
A nobler, a more magnanimous passion he would say never
fired the human breast; and whoever was not animated by
such a principle, did not, in his opinion, deserve any share in
the public confidence; was no proper object of popular appro-
bation; was not an eligible candidate for the attention and.
applause of Englishmen.


Here, also, he was not without hopes he should be permit-
ted to put in his claim for some degree of confidence on the
same principle. He protested that every other consideration
was in his opinion trivial and of no weight; that no sacrifice
was too great to be offered at such a shrine ; and that he
would go any lengths with any man who would shake hands
with him in this truly glorious, truly patriotic, and truly con-




384 RESOLUTION OF THE ST. ALBAN'S ASSOCIATION. [Feb.


stitutional ground ; and he was ready to own, that the
right honourable gentleman had always appeared to him as
aiming at the same great and desirable object. As on this
subject, however, he wished to conceal nothing, he would say
the only suspicion he entertained, and which had originated
in the mode by which the right honourable gentleman obtain-
ed and kept possession of power, was, that he entertained an
opinion that the crown might appoint a ministry, and persist.
in supporting them, who had not the confidence of the House.
He wished he might and the suspicion ill founded, but he
dreaded to find it true; for then an union on such a principle
was impossible. It went to deprive this country of an execu-
tive government, in which the people had any concern, over
which they could exercise any controul. All the instances of
voting money was on a principle of confidence. The minister's
influence in the House depended on what confidence they had
in him; he was their trustee; to them he was responsible for
every article of public expenditure. The very estimates to
to be considered that night were instances of the same princi-
ple in the constitution ; and every sum of money voted for the
ordnance, was voted by gentlemen incapable of judging for
themselves whether those sums were properly applied or not ;
but in confidence that Lord Townshend, the Dukeof Richmond,
or any other whose province it was to direct the business of
that very important department, were competent to pronounce
on the fitness of the objects for which this money would be
applied.


He did not well apprehend where the difference between
the right honourable gentleman and himself, in respect to
measures, could lie. That concerning their several plans
for• the government of India, though decided already by the
House,. he was still willing to accommodate as far as pos-
sible. His bill, he thought at the same time, would be a
loser by the new modifications to which he was willing to
submit it; but he would gladly have it possessed of as much
public confidence as possible. He was therefore happy to
assure the -House, that whatever seemed most objectionable
with regard especially to patronage, would at least in a great
measure be removed. Few exceptions on this very material
point at least, would, he persuaded himself, remain, in con-
sequence of the plan which he had now under contemplation;
but notwithstanding this, should any discordance of opinion
still continue on that head, he saw no impropriety in sub-
mitti»g even that to the discussion of parliament.


The only obstacle, then, which still remained, was the
present situation of the right honourable,


Be
declared the personal attentions or situation of his noble frier4


1784.j RESOLUTION OF THE ST. ALBAN'S ASSOCIATION. 385


(Lord North) would prove none. But there • could be no
cordial, no firm or efficient union, till the right honourable
gentleman and his party submitted to the constitution of the
country. The expedient referred to in the Duke of Port-
land's letter was, that they should cease to be the ministers
of this country, but continue to support the etiquette of office
till a proper arrangement could be made. - He declared,
however, that, as a man of honour, he saw no other hin-
drance to the union which had been urged than that now
stated; that he could not treat with men while they refused
to treat on constitutional grounds; that he meant only to
support the constitutional consequence of the people of Eng-
land; and that a negociation which admitted a precedent so -
destructive of it, was inconsistent with his personal.honour,
and with his duty to his country.


Mr. Pitt declared, that, for the reasons already given by him,
he could not recede from his former determination. He allowed,
that no minister could-in fact continue long in office who did not
possess the confidence of that House ; but he denied that there
were any constitutional means to force him to resign. The pro-
per method of effecting his removal was by an address to the
crown; till in consequence of such a measure, the king should
think proper to remove him from his office, he held it neither
illegal nor unconstitutional to retain it. With regard to other
and subordinate considerations, he confessed that there might be
persons with whom he could not possibly bring himself to act,
without forfeiting that character of constancy which other gen-
tlemen he thought had too much undervalued. If such persons
there were, and they would consent to sacrifice their views, and
to remove themselves out of the way of union, he thought they
would do themselves honour, and merit the thanks of their coun-
try. These allusions called up Lord North, to whom they were
manifestly pointed. He said, that though he did not feel in him-
self the least disposition to gratify the caprice or the unjust pre-
judices of any individual, yet what he should be unwilling to do
for the right honourable minister, he was willing and ready to do
tor his country. That if his pretensions should be deemed any
obstacle to an union, he should rejoice in removing it; but he
apprehended that not himself, but the chancellor of the exchequer,
stood in the way of union, since it appeared that nothing was now
wanting for that salutary end, but that the right honourable gen-
tleman should pay a just and dutiful respect to the resolutions of
that House by retiring from a situation which he both obtained
and held on principles they had repeatedly condemned. — The
highest applauses were bestowed on Lord North for his noble and
dis interested conduct, particularly by the leaders of the St. Al-
ban's who called loudly on Mr. Pitt, but in vain, to
Yield to the pressing exigencies of his country. Notwithstanding
th e discouraging circumstances which appeared in the above de-


n. C c




386 RESOLUTION OF THE ST. ALBAN'S ASSOCIATION. [Feb, xi...
bate, the associated members still continued their endeavours to
effect an union. They returned their unanimous thanks to Lord


,North and Mr. Fox for their open, candid, and manly declara.
tions of their willingness to conciliate the differences subsisting
between the contending parties, and an expedient was at length.
suggested, which, without any concession of principle, on either
side, but only a concession of mode, it was hoped might lead to
an amicable negociation: this was, that the Duke of Portland
should be' requested by the king to have a conference with Mr.
Pitt for the purpose of forming a new administration. This pro..
position was acceded to ; and a message was accordingly sent by
Mr. Pitt to the duke, in which he acquainted him, that he was
commanded to signify to him " his majesty's earnest desire, that


, his grace should have a personal conference with Mr. Pitt, for
the purpose of forming a new administration on a wide basis, and
on fair and equal terms." This message was perfectly satisfactory
to the Duke of Portland as to the mode proposed, but he wished


'to have the terms of the message perfectly understood between
him and Mr. Pitt previous to the conference. The word " fair,"
he had no objection to ; it was a general term, and they might, in
framing the arrangement, mutually discuss what each considered
to be fair : but the word " equal," was a limited and specific term,
and therefore he wished to know from Mr. Pitt to what particular
object it was intended to be applied. It seemed to promise slen-
der hopes of a real union, and had the appearance of forming an
arrangement more on the idea of having equal numbers of each
party in the cabinet, than on mutual confidence and unity of prin-
ciples. Mr. Pitt replied, that the word objected to would be hest
explained at their conference, and declined all further preliminary
discussions. Two other proposals were offered by the Duke of
Portland ; the first, that he should be permitted to construe the
message of Mr. Pitt to imply a virtual resignation : the second,
that he might receive his majesty's commands relative to the con-
ference from the sovereign in person : but they were both re-
fused.—Thus ended all hopes of a coalition of parties ; and the
meeting at the St. Alban's closed their efforts with declaring, " that
they heard, with infinite concern, that all further progress towards
an union was prevented by a doubt respecting a single word; and
that they were unanimously of opinion that it would be no d is-
honourable step in either of the gentlemen to give way,
be highly advantageous to the public welfare."


and might


THE KING'S REFUSAL, &c. 337


'.11-1E KING'S REFUSAL TO DISMISS HIS MINISTERS. — POST-
PONEMENT OP THE SUPPLIES.


Februcny 18.


V N the order of the day being read for receiving the reportI of the committee of supply, Mr. Pitt and Mr. Fox rose to-
gether, which occasioned a moment's contention in the House,
but the latter giving way, the former stated, that he only desired
to say very shortly what the situation of ministers was previous to
the question now to be agitated. He then declared, that his ma-
jesty had not yet, in compliance with the resolutions of the House,
thought proper to dismiss his present ministers; and that his ma-
jesty's ministers had not resigned. This much he thought neces-,
sary to say, prior to any discussion on the subject of supplies.
Upon this,


3.14r. Fox rose. He said he had heard the declaration of
the right honourable gentleman with the greatest astonish-
ment and concern. It was, in his opinion, such language as
this House had never heard since the Revolution, or, how-,
ever, he might say since the Accession. What was it but a
flat and peremptory negative to the sentiments and wishes of
his majesty's filitlrful commons, who, ardently desirous of the
public welfare, and the honour of every branch of the legis-
lature, had taken the most cautious and delicate means in
their power, not only of preventing every thing like a breach,
but even of closing the wound when made? In what situation,
then, did the House of Commons stand? To what a degree of
insignificance were the representatives of the people, and the
people themselves, reduced by this expedient? Could it be
said that they had any longer the least influence in the con-.
stitution of the country ? He would answer boldly and to the
point. In his opinion the matter was nearly at a crisis.
Was not this the first answer of the sort that ever had been
received:by the House from a Prince of the Brunswick line?
A prince who was born and bred among a people who had
long adored his personal and domestic virtues, to whom all
the nation looked with pleasure and confidence, whose an-
cestors had laid them under the highest obligations, and from
the qualities and virtues of whose progeny they had the most
sanguine expectations; that he should have been the first to
treat their humble and respectful representation 'with so little
ceremony as a direct negative; language would not bear him
out in stating the sentiments which a conduct so new and
extraordinary undoubtedly impressed on. his mind ! Would


CC 2




388 THE KING'S ntrus.u., [Feb. 8.
any member of the House pretend to say, that the present
had any parallel in the history of the country, except in such
times as one would wish, during the present contest, if pos-
sible, to forget? Was there not then actually existing, .a
variance between the House of Commons and the other
branches of the legislature ? Was the message now delivered
of a pacific or conciliatory tendency? Ought not every spe-
cies of conduct, as things were now circumstanced, to have
been as soft and accommodating as possible? "Was it friendly
to the liberties of this country, the constitutional importance
of the people, or the consequence of their representatives in
parliament, to have answered their wishes in a manner so
very unsatisfactory? Gentlemen in private life regarded each
other with so much respect and delicacy, as never, but ia
cases which could admit of no palliative, to contradict each
other's desires. It was this mutual deference and complaisance
which constituted the beauty as well as utility of social in-
tercourse: and the powers which entered into the constitu-
tion of this country were actuated and kept alive by the con-
stant and happy application of this great principle. Har-
mony rendered all the branches of the British legislature one,
and rendered its operations effectual and consistent. But he
would ask, what tendency his majesty's message had to pro-
duce that cordiality and union, which constituted the vital
spring of the British government? Had not a majority of the
House of Commons, almost from time immemorial, governed
this country ? Was it not a confidence in the House of Com-
mons that gave energy and effect to every administration?
Was it not the countenance and concurrence of the House
of Commons which gave popularity and stability to the throne?
Was it not in clashing with this radical and primary prin-
ciple that so many calamities had happened in some of the
reigns prior to the Revolution ? Was it not to the influence
of this principle that we owed all the glorious and memorable
things that had been achieved during the war before last?
What could be the reason for relinquishing a principle, which,
ever since its prevalence, had been marked with the most
striking advantages?


Now, however, was, it seemed, the.ra fixed on for go-
verning this country by other principles, without a House of
Commons, and independent of the people. But were the
provisions so well established by the wisdom and experience
of our forefathers to be set aside, and dismissed from the
abstractions and theories of innovators, on a system which
had stood the wonder and admiration of ages? He trusted
the firmness, the Magnanimity of that , virtuous and respec-
table majority, who had gone so far' and done so much,


1784.]


TO DISMISS HIS MINISTERS, &C.
389


would not desert them on this critical and trying occasion.
He trusted they would face the difficulties they had to en-
counter, with resolution and dignity. They were in cir-
cumstances in which no House of Commons had been ihr
many years; and as every thing about them must consequently
bear a new aspect, their present duty was deliberation and
attention. There was evident danger in every step ; and
it became them to think once and again before they acted.
Now was the time to make a pause; and he trusted it would
be a solemn and decisive one. The subject which demanded
their consideration was unquestionably one of the most
serious and important that ever had, •or ever could demand
their consideration. It was neither less nor more than what
it became them to do under a circumstance so novel and
unprecedented in the history of a free parliament, as to
destroy their consequence for ever, unless some method was
devised by which their honour and independence could be
saved. No man could say this was not an object of great
moment; or if any man could boldly come forward and assert
that the House of Commons was not in a situation altogether
peculiar to the present moment, he would only say, in re-
turn, that such a declaration would not be less extraordinary
than the fact which it denied.


He trusted gentlemen, on a topic so near to every Eng-
lishman's feelings, would excuse his repetitions, as he thought,
in his conscience, too much could not be said to rivet the no-
velty of the circumstance on the mind. It was at least unpa-
ralleled in the annals of the country which related to our most
prosperous condition, and had not the shadow of a precedent,
but in those melancholy times, which were still the oppro-
brium of our history, and involved a series of the most awful
and affecting calamities that ever degraded and disgraced a
great and brave people. If ever, therefore, any period was
more big with calamity than another, if ever a design to an-
nihilate the constitution was entertained, it seemed now to be
that period, and that design. And when should the House
pause on its situation, its duty, its importance, its interests,
its connections, and the consequences of being reduced and
suppressed, but when a proscription stared them in the face ?
For these, and a variety of reasons, he thought the present
subject ought to be delayed. Men's minds, at least those who
viewed the matter as he did, could not be in a state sufficiently
cool and collected to view the matter maturely and dispas-
sionately. They ought to be permitted leisure, that they
might think on every word they said, and every measure they
adopted, lest precipitation might derange them, so as to pro-
duce the greatest public difficulty.


CC 3




390 THE KING'S REFUSAL [Feb. is,
He had, from a variety of such considerations as these, rose


to suggest to the House the necessity and propriety of waving
the question of supplies for a very short period, that (gentle-


situ


-


men might come on a future day perfectly' awake to the
ation in which they were now placed by his majesty's answer
to the resolutions, which, by an order of the House, had be
laid before the throne. rHe did not conceive that any very
satisfactory argument could be urged against a proposition
so much justified by the present condition of the country at
large, and the House of Commons in particular. He called
on gentlemen to consider under what a description they would
henceforth sit in the Bouse, on the supposition that this con-
test ended in favour of the present ministry. Did it not com-
pletely overthrow their power in the constitution ? Did it not
reduce them to a state of the most perfect non-entity and in,'
significance? Did it not make them as little as ever their an-
cestors had made them great? Did it not strip them of all the
powers and privileges with which time, the constitution, and
the people of England, had vested them, and bring them
back to that original insignificance in which some of our his-
torians affected to place them ? And was it not in such a pro-
gress of degradation as this, that she House. was interested in
making a stand, and exerting with all its remaining vigour its
last efforts in its own preservation ? He therefore urged gen-
tlemen, by their regard for a government which had no parallel
on the face of the earth, for the salvation of whatever they
most valued as men and Englishmen, for all those rights,
-which, having derived unimpaired from their ancestors, it
was their duty and their pride to transmit unsullied to pos-
terity; to deliberate on where they were, how they were situ-
ated, and to what object these very uncommon circumstances
tended. He asked how they could answer to their consti-
tuents and their own consciences, for having acted in such a
predicament as the present, without caution, principle, or
mature attention. These had marked, arid he trusted would
continue to mark, their conduct. He had a better opinion of
their prudence than to imagine they were to be disconcerted
or deranged by any thing they could now hear from a quarter
so evidently hostile to their wishes, and which had contrived
to act so long independent of their confidence.


He had often stated his conceptions of the prerogatives of
the throne. The present question involved them very mate-
rially. That his majesty had a legal right to appoint whom
he pleased, and even to continue those whom he had ap-
pointed, to be his ministers, in opposition to the sentiments
of this House, he pretended not to dispute. But he was cer
tain, on the other hand, the public money was trusted with


174] TO DISMISS HIS MINISTERS, &C. 391
the House of Commons, whose right to distribute that money
was at least not less legal. 'When, therefore, either the one
or the other of these rights were asserted in the extreme, he
could consider it in no other light than as a challenge ; and
the party thus defied was bound in duty to its own ho-
nour, calmly and deliberately to consider with itself whether
it should take up the challenge or not. He did not know that
any defiance more explicit and direct could be given to that
House than the one which had just come from the right ho-
nourable gentleman. He hoped the House was not by any
means prepared to accept of it without farther and more se-
date consideration. Whatever their feelings and resentments
might be, they would not, on an event so awful and porten
tous, he imagined, act with temerity or indiscretion. They
were driven to extremes, and the consequences undoubtedly
would be with those who imposed on them a line of conduct,
which it was their wish, their united desire to avoid. How
long it might be proper for them to maintain such a system of
moderation and delicacy he did not know, but be was anxious
they would depart from it in the present stage of the business
as little as possible.


He had been singled out as constantly enjoining a doctrine
respecting moderation and temper in the House, of which his
own example was no very striking specimen : for such a turn
to what he conceived to be his duty, he gave the author of it
full credit. He was aware at the same time that the sarcasm
did not, or at least but slightly, affect him ; for he had always
observed a material distinction between that vehemence
which originated in debate and characterised the mode of indi-
viduals, and that violence or inconsideration which often af-
fected conduct. The heat produced by argument, and the
circumstances of a popular assembly, was very different from
that precipitancy or temerity in action which was always the
mark of weakness or design. He was ready to plead guilty
to no very common degree of warmth where the subject struck
him as interesting and important ; but he appealed to the
House, to the world at large, and to every act of his political
life, whether any part of his public conduct had ever been
distinguished by want of temper. lie was happy to think that
this at least was not his greatest weakness, and that the impu-
tation so •repeatedly and sarcastically aimed at him would, on
the whole, be found more perfectly applicable elsewhere (look-
ing at Mr. Pitt) than with him. But if ever any want of tem-
per could for a single moment be indulged in that House ; if
warmth was ever justifiable on any subject, or at any time ; if
any emergency rendered it necessary for individuals to take an
open and decided part in dispute, this, he presumed, above


cc 4




39 2 THE KING'S REFUSAL [Feb. 18,
all the very singular contingencies which distinguished our
history, demanded an immediate surrender of every disguise.
The point at issue admitted of no parley whatever. It was
decided by one party. The other had no alternative but to
render their decision as wide, as respectable, and as effective
as possible; and he had the most perfect confidence in the
prudence and spirit of the House. It was on such occasions
as the present that great and conspicuous talents were called
into existence, were roused into action, were exerted for the
welfare of society ; and he did not doubt but the ability of the
present House of Commons, in spite of whatever artifices
were practised against them, would bear them honourably
through the conflict. They would find resources in the cause
of the constitution and the people, which no other cause could
produce, and which had always, in the face of every opposi-
tion and danger, proved ultimately triumphant.


The measures already adopted he had thought were sepa-
rately and respectively adopted on the most solid and substan-
tial grounds. These had partly been justified by the event.
But it was now obvious they had not produced the whole
effect for which they were proposed. Others were conse-
quently still necessary. What these should be it did not be-
come him to say, it did not become the House immediately
to determine. But, in. his opinion, something farther was
necessary. The variance stated by the minister to subsist be-
tween the crown and the House could not but give something
like a new turn to men's feelings and ideas. He confessed it
to have impressed him with the most awful apprehensions; and
was this a state of mind favourable to the discussion of' a ques-
tion which involved the peculiar distinction of that House?
Could gentlemen deliberate maturely on a subject, which,
whatever way it might be decided, would materially affect the
interest and tranquillity of the country by its decision? He
considered the message which they had heard from the minis-
ter as a greater' calamity than any this country had endured
for a century past ; and the feelings and apprehensions of
mankind could not help being alarmed . fbr the probable con-
sequences of a measure that put every thing sacred and valu-
able to the issue of who should ultimately prove strongest.


I- le was not ignorant by what reasoning the adjournment
for which he should move would be opposed, though his con-
ception could not furnish him with a single argument against
it, which would not originate in misrepresentation. Gentle-
men on the other side would put a construction on every
word he adopted most perfectly foreign to his meaning. To
stop the supplies, he knew as well as any man, was an expe-
dient which could only be justified by the last extremity. He


I 7 84 . ] TO DISMISS HIS MINISTERS, &C. 393
begged, however, to declare, that he, for one, was not yet
ripe to adopt such a strong measure. His faculties were in a
state of suspension by what he had heard, which allowed him
not to say what was most proper. The hesitation of eight
and forty hours could not much affect the business of the
country one way or other; and this was a respite which
every aspect which could be taken of public affairs abun-
dantly justified. But he solemnly and earnestly entered his
protestation against imputing to this conduct, which origi-
nated in delicacy for the honour of the House, any thing
like a desire to put off the supplies. He knew the necessity
of these, and no man could be more averse than be was to
do any thing that must prove distressing to the country.


Why, then, were the House of Commons so circum-
stanced by the obstinacy of his majesty's ministers, or the
advisers of his majesty, as that they could not preserve their
own rights, the rights of the constitution, or the rights of
the people, without such an assertion of their prerogative as
must be attended with the most serious mischief? Who
were to blame for all this, but those who defied a majority
of parliament, and set up their own sagacity in opposition
to the collected wisdom of the House? He was sincerely
sorry any individual should so far forget his consequence,
however respectable, as to think it beneath him to submit not
to any personal etiquette, but to the honour of the House,
to that voice which had always prevailed in the purest times
of this country, to that decision which no minister till now
had ever the hardihood to contest, to that constitution which
it had always been the greatest glory of the greatest men to
venerate and obey. What, then, was the principle on which
we beheld at this moment a ministry without the confidence
of the House of Commons ? An executive government in
which the House placed no degree of trust whatever ? How
could a phenomenon in the constitution be accounted for on
those great and liberal principles which had ever been its
proudest distinction ? He was unwilling to adopt any lan-
guage that might be capable of Misconstruction ; but it was
Ur and manly to say, that the design of ruling this country
without the voice of the people was now obvious. He would
readily absolve the right honourable gentleman from any im-
putation of this sort, but he would not so readily absolve
those who had secretly advised his majesty to appoint a set of
men to the executive government of this country in opposition
to a majority of the House of Commons. These persons,
whoever they were, had adopted a system of politics totally
inconsistent with the functions of that House, hostile indeed
to the spirit and character of a free government. It was their




394 THE KING'S REFUSAL EFeb,


evident intention to render the House of Commons the mere
tool and organ of despotism. He hoped the spirit of a brave
and a free people would defeat the base design ; but the de-
sign would not appear the less dark and disingenuous that it
was not permitted to succeed.


He had long observed the machinations, hatched and har-
boured by a combination of persons, against the liberty of
this country, whose political principles were too well under-
stood to . need any farther illustration. These persons had
long endeavoured to have the voice of the people on their
side, had long struggled to make the people parties in their
own ruin, had long endeavoured to make them at enmity
with their best friends, and to persuade them that those only
who ran every risk, and sacrificed every thing desirable on
their account, were most hostile to their interest, and least
inclined, as well as least able, to do them any real service.
This was one of their most capital manoeuvres, which they
were playing off in the face of a country bleeding at every
pore, and under circumstances which rendered us the derision
and contempt of all time world. But how was it meant to
demolish the consequence and utility of this house? Had
they not resisted every idea of delicacy which ought to have
operated in favour of that majority which opposed the mi-
nisters they had put in, and continued to support ? Had
they not trifled with the voice and inclinations of the House,
So forcibly and explicitly announced by the several resolutions
in the Journals? Had they not procrastinated that issue
which the business of the public and the wishes of the House
had so long and repeatedly urged, till the patience of the
House was nearly exhausted? He hoped that virtue would
prove superior to the temptations it had now to encounter,
though, as all delicacy was over with one branch of the le-
gislature, some might think it ought also to be at an end
with another. He was of a different opinion, and held it to
be their duty to continue in the same prudent and respectful
temper in which they had begun. Notwithstanding the plan
laid to precipitate them into an immediate refusal of such
supplies as were necessary for carrying on the public business,
he was not without hopes that the House would act such a
part as would justify them to their constituents. Whether they
should go immediately into a decision which should finally
settle the dispute between the privileges of parliament and the
prerogatives of the crown, or whether some anterior step
might not be deemed more eligible : what this would be,
whether two or two hundred expedients might be most ad-
viseable, were, in the present state of his mind, questions to
which he dared not hazard an answer. He would only sal,


1784.7


TO DISMISS HIS MINISTERS, &C. 39;


M general, that whatever had the most distant promise of an-
swering any pacific purpose, he, for one, would be ,anxious
to adopt, and, if possible, by every expedient which human
sagacity could suggest, to avoid altogether a discussion so hos-
tile to public tranquillity.


He wondered by what principle the right honourable gentle-
man could reconcile his present situation to the feelings of his
own mind. He was satisfied he could not be where he was from
choice. Was every one, then, who saw and admired the dis-
play of his great and splendid abilities, more sensible of their
present improper application than he was ? He certainly
meant no personal disrespect, and he persuaded himself the
right honourable gentleman would not take it in that light,
when he suspected he was the dupe of those who were enemies
to the constitutional importance of that House. They pre-
sumed on his youth, the popularity which attended the family
to which he belonged, and the illustrious name which lie bore;
and were he to use the same freedom in that House which one
friend might use to another, and in a room with the right
honourable gentleman alone, he would address him on the
present contest 'in these words—" You are contending in the
House of Commons not for the prerogatives of the crown or
the constitution, connected with the exercise of these pre-
rogatives, but for a set of men, who are only making you the
instrument of their ambition, and that object gained, they
will make you nobody. It is their intention to make you
only an accessary to their own plans, and whenever their
schemes are fulfilled, they will destroy your utility for ever.
They make you exert your utmost endeavours to pull down
this asylum of liberty, but you unadvisedly involve yourself in
its ruins."—If therefore ministers were determined to bravelthe
power of parliament, and oppose their own personal feelings
to the honour of the House and the welfare of the people,
they must abide by the consequence. The principle on which
they acted was an everlasting bar to any prospect of unanimity
in that house. He was alarmed more by this than any other
circumstance whatever. It ever had presented to his mind a
menacing aspect to the liberties, not of the House only, but
of the country. It affected that great vital and active prin-
ciple in the constitution on which all the privileges of Eng-
lishmen hung; and while that impediment remained, no


-


coalescence could be expected. It placed an ocean between
them, which it was impossible to pass, and put every wish
of agreement or connection altogether out of the question.


These were a few of the circumstances which at present
Pressed on his mind the absolute necessity of a solemn
Pause. This question itself was a question of the last impor-





396 THE KING'S REFUSAL, &C. [Feb. 18,
tance, when stated in an abstract and general point of view,
He was, however, happy to find- that the particular species
of supply now moved was not immediately indispensable, and
that no material disadvantage could possibly happen, at least
tor the very short space to which he wished the House to
adjourn. He shuddered to debate a proposition of such mag-
nitude.


" Tempus inane peto, requiemque spatium furori."
He wished only for such a pause as would allow gentle-


men time to re-consider all the steps which had been taken, or
might be farther necessary to put a proper period to the con-
test which had unhappily so long interrupted the business of
the public ; and concluded with moving that instead of "how,"
the report be received on Friday, the zoth instant.


The mention of refusing the supplies was received by the other
side of the House as a threat, which even the utmost madness of
faction could not seriously design to execute. The very right of
such a refusal was questioned. The exercise of this privilege, in
former times, was founded on principles which, it was contended,
did not now exist. The settled revenues of the crown were then
sufficient for all the ordinary purposes of the executive govern-
ment, without an annual application to parliament ; and it was only
on extraordinary demands, such as for the prosecution of wars
disapproved of by parliament, that the right of refusal was exer-
cised ; whereas, in the present state of our government, to deny
the ordinary annual supply, would be, in fact, to dissolve the
whole fabric of government. Mr. Pitt, withou(denying the right
of refusing supplies in cases of necessity, contented himself with
appealing to the justice of the House, whether his majesty's re,
fusal to dismiss his ministers, because that House had thought
proper to condemn them without a trial, was a justifiable ground
for the exercise of it.


The House divided on Mr. Fox's motion for postponing the sup-
plies :




Tellers.
Tellers.


{Lord Maitland o , 1 Mr. Macdonald'




YEAS 2o0.—IN oEs . I 196.




Mr. Byng Mr. Robert Smith
Ministers were consequently left in a minority of twelve.


1784.3 MOTION TO RELY ON THE KING'S READINESS, &C. 397


ga. Powys's MOTION, THAT THE HOUSE RELIES ON THE
KING'S READINESS TO FORM AN UNITED AND EFFICIENT
ADMINISTRATION.


February 2o.


M
R. Powys moved, " That this House, impressed with the
most dutiful sense of his majesty's paternal regard for the


welfare of his people, relies on his majesty's royal wisdom, that he
will take such measures as may tend to give effect to the wishes of
his faithful Commons, which have already been most humbly repre-
sented to his majesty." To this it was afterwards, on the motion
of Mr. Eden, agreed to add, " by removing any obstacle to the
formation of such an administration as this House has declared to
be requisite in the present critical and arduous situation of public
affairs."


Mr. Fox said, the question was of too much importance
for him to give a silent vote upon it, especially after what had
fallen in the course of the debate; before, however, he pro-
ceeded to touch upon any of the various topics that had been
brought forward, he could not but . express his satisfaction at
the debate having been carried on as it had been by country
gentlemen, by men perfectly independent in principle, and
known to- have no view to office, nor any motive whatever,
but a wish to promote the public welfare. The opinions of
such characters must at all times have their weight with that
House and with the nation ; it had therefore afforded him
particular pleasure to hear the motion so fairly discussed; and
he could not but think, that it would tend more effectually to
open the eyes of the public, than any arguments he could ad-
vance, or all the oratory of both sides of the House combined
could produce.


In the progress of the contest that had engaged their at-
tention for some weeks past, the ministers and their friends
had studiously endeavoured to load him and those who did
him the honour to .think with him, and to act accordingly,
with all the unpopularity an.d all the odium, that art could
Imagine, and malice impute. Thus, from day to day, new
colours for their conduct were held out, equally fallacious and
foreign from the true motives of their proceedings, but all
equally tending to mislead, confound, and delude. The point
most laboured at by the other side of the House was, to
charge them with having stopped the supplies„ and thereby
not only very considerably impeded the progress of the public
business, but given a fatal blow to the national credit. A
charge more serious could scarcely be suggested, but a charge




398 MOTION TO RELY ON THE KING'S READINESS [Feb. 20.
more false had never been hazarded. That the power of
withholding the supplies was a weapon with which the con..
stitution had armed that House, and that it was warrantable for
that House to wield this weapon whenever a fit occasion re-
quired, was a maxim founded in undeniable truth, and one
which he never would abandon. That the supplies ought not
to be withheld wantonly, rashly, or lightly, was an assertion
which he had repeatedly made, and which no man felt a fuller
conviction of than himself. The question lay, therefore,
wholly in the expediency of the exercise of this right, the
undoubted privilege of that House, the representative of the
Commons of England. The present struggle was clearly a


nostrunwle between the prerogatives of the crown and the pri-
vileges of the people. In defence of the latter, that House
was bound to exert every nerve of the power with which it
was constitutionally invested. The power of withholding the
supplies, as it was the most formidable weapon in its hands,
ought undoubtedly to be the last used. Should the ministers
persist in their obstinacy, and push matters to an extremity,
it would be justifiable to wield that weapon, the right to use
which was the only distinction that he knew between a free
people and the slaves of an absolute monarchy. He thanked
God the contest had not been carried so far as to render such
a dreadful resort necessary; and he hoped, prompt as minis-
ters appeared to provoke that House by insult, and deter-
mined as they were to treat its resolutions with defiance, the
House would keep its temper, would preserve its moderation,
and would adopt every means of procrastination, to avoid
bringing the contest to its crisis. As yet, they had not stopped
the supplies; they had indeed postponed them for eight and
forty hours, and that on an occasion that would have justified
a harsher measure, and in a case where their postponementicould be attended with no possible njury.


An honourable gentleman (Mr. Marsham) had declared in
the course of the debate, that he would grant no supplies du-
ring the continuance in office of the present ministers, except-
ing only from time to time, and when the supplies asked were
declared to be immediately necessary. Mr. Fox said, lie
would not go so fhr, he would not say that lie would refuse
supplies on the one hand, nor that he would grant them
on the other ; but govern his conduct by the circumstances of
each particular case. Many gentlemen who had spoken in
the course of the debate had said generally, that to withhold the
supplies was to injure the national credit. This assertion went
hot to the extent to which it had been carried, but was found-
ed in error ; the mistake arose entirely from the distinction be-
tween the supplies and the ways and means not being kept in


1784.] TO FORM AN EFFICIENT ADMINISTRATION. 399
mind and preserved. The annuatexpence, if gentlemen would
reflect a moment, they would see consisted of two parts, the
money appropriated to pay the interest of the public funds
and the national debt, and the money voted to defray the
charge of particular services. The former consisted not of
the sums raised by incidental means, but of the produce of per-
manent taxes, enforced by perpetual acts of parliament, and
specially appropriated. The appropriation of the produce of
these taxes was inalienable, and in the case of failure, the sink-
ing fund was pledged as a security. Nothing, therefore, could
shake the national credit, but a refusal to pass the bills of such
of the appropriated taxes as were annual; a refusal that, he
trusted, no man in his senses would think of: He could not
exemplify this more strongly, than by stating, that if the receipt-
tax had either been given up or left in .its unproductive state,
without a new tax being proposed and adopted to make up
the deficiency, and the sinking fund had not proved ej ival to
supplying it, in that case the national creditor would have been
injured, but in no other. The other part of the public ex-
pence was of a very different nature. It consisted of provid-
ing for estimates of expellees to be incurred, and which neces-.
sarily were optional in their nature. These, as services to be
performed, rested entirely on the discretion of the House, and
the confidence they placed in ministers. Thus, the estimate
for the ordnance, and he could not, he said, choose a case
more directly in point, was the estimate of an expence to be
incurred, and consequently a species of supply upon which that
House might exercise its prudence without detriment to the
national credit. To postpone it, therefore, could be no pos-
sible harm. This, he said, was the distinction between sup-
plies and ways and means. The one respected public credit,
the other public safety. The former might be refused without
risque to the national credit in many instances, the latter in
none. :Ways and means were the provisions for expences ac-
tually voted ; supplies, the expences themselves. The worst
ministers, or the most unconstitutional monarch that. ever
reigned, must not be refused the one, but it might be highly in-
expedient to vote the other, even .in the reigns of princes whose
own good intentions every body was convinced of, but in
whose ministers that House had no confidence.


That it had ever been an established and understood maxim,
that ministers ought not to remain in office, who had not the
confidence of that House, was to be proved by a reference to
the most remote periods of our history. So long ago as the
reign of Henry the Fourth, when the nature of our constitution
was but little known, an application had been made to that
monarch from parliament, for the removal of certain of MS




400 310TION TO RELY ON THE KING'S PEADINESS [Feb. 20;
ministers, when Henry, with the spirit of a Bri fish king, had said,
" He knew no cause why they should be removed, but only be-
cause they were hated by the people. Yet he charged them to
depart from his house according to the desire of the commons."*
This answer, which would have done honour to a monarch in
more modern tunes, when the constitutional privileges of that
House, as the representative of the Commons of England, were
so much better understood, clearly evinced how essential it had'
ever been considered that there should exist a mutual confi-
dence .between that House and the ministers who were en-
trusted with the executive government. With regaal to the
argument that stopping the supplies would be attended with
confusions and distractions, that depended entirely upon his
majesty's ministers : good ministers, who wished well to the
peace and quiet of their country, would always prevent them,
by resigning before that House had proceeded to such a vote.
Upon this ground he was convinced it was, that the present
Lord Camelford, (then Mr. Thomas Pitt,) had two years ago'
acted, when he proposed stopping the supplies, but the minis-
ters of that day knew their duty too well to suffer such a motion;
they prevented it by a timely resignation.


Having amply discussed the consideration of withholding
the supplies, he observed, that it had been stated in the course
of the debate, that the unpopularity of the late ministers arose
from three circumstances; from the receipt-tax, from the India
bill, and from the coalition. With regard to the former, it
was a good tax, and it was evident that the right honourable
gentleman thought so, by his voting for that bill, in support of
which he had not chosen to say one syllable : why the right
honourable gentleman had given a silent vote on that occasion,
the House, he doubted not, were sufficiently aware. But po-
pular or unpopular as the receipt-tax might be, every body,
must admit that a tax largely productive was necessary, and
no better tax had yet been proposed in its stead.


The East India bill, also, had been another ground of odium
and of obloquy. The House would recollect, that he had
opened that bill as a strong measure, and had expressly stated,
that the enormity of the abuses could alone justify so violent a
remedy. This bill had been much complained of without
doors. Why? Because the people had not understood it. An
honourable gentleman ( Governor Johnstone) had said in a late
debate, " What, cannot the people tell when charters are in-
vaded? Do they not know when their rights are taken away;
when their books, their papers, their warehouses, their property


* See New Parliamentary History of England, Vol. p. 291.


1784.]TO roRm AN EFFICIENT ADMINISTRATION. 40g
are seized on ? Undoubtedly they could, and undoubtedly
they did. But this was only to understand the remedy, and
not to know the complaint. The complaint was known to that
House, and that House by a considerable majority decided
that the extent of the mischief justified the violence of the
cure. Thus the patient who was to undergo an amputation,
might say to his surgeon, " Don't cut off my leg, the pain
and anguish of the operation are excruciating." The surgeon
alone could tell whether the amputation was necessary. So
the people without doors saw that the remedy the India bill ap-
plied was a harsh one, but they knew not the extent of the
abuses that made such a remedy necessary. That remedy,
as he had already said, was approved of by a most respect-
able majority of that House, and lost by a majority of the
other. Not by a respectable m ajority however, because if
ever there were circumstances which rendered a majority less
respectable at one time than another, those circumstances
had attended the majority of the other House, in procuring
their decision against the India bill. The bill had been lost
by about a majority of eight. How that majority had been
obtained was a matter too well known to render his enlarging
upon it necessary. That bill, however, need no longer be the
subject of dispute, because although he was not, nor could he
be supposed to be willing, to leave the patronage, that bad
given such alarm, to the unreserved disposal of the right ho-
nourable gentleman, as an honourable and respectable member
(Mr. Marsham) had stated, yet he had brought his mind to
that point upon the subject, that there could scarcely be an ar-
rangement of the patronage suggested, either by that right
honourable gentleman or any other enemy of the former bill,
to which he did not think he could consent.


With regard to the coalition, much, he observed, had been
said against it in every debate, and it had been renewed in the
present. He had upon former occasions expressed himself
fully upon that subject. He had not, lie said, been unaware
of the effects, nay, of the obloquy that might attend that mea-
sure, when it was first meditated. It had been undertaken
upon both sides with caution ; it had been deliberated upon
with anxiety ; nay, he was not afraid to say, it had been begun
with all that diffidence and doubt natural among persons, who
had long differed upon great public topics; but from the mo-
ment it was determined upon, he would venture to say that
there never had existed any thing but mutual confidence,
mutual faith, the most perfect concord and firm reliance
on each other's honour. Thef:e had not been in it any of
that undermining jealousy, that secret and hidden distrust


VOL. II. D D




402 MOTION TO RELY ON THE KING'S READINESS [Feb. 20.


which he had known to exist, where there werestno
reasons to suppose that mutual intercourse and agreement
would have been productive of faith and honour. Had the
last administration been suffered to remain in power, he was
confident it was that strong and vigorous administration
-which was calculated to have carried into effect those plans
that were. absolutely necessary to the present situation of this
country. He recollected to have seen a beautiful speech
of a near relation of the right honourable gentleman over
against him, in which, in order to discredit a coalition for-
merly made between the Duke of Newcastle and a noble
relation of his, with that force and brilliancy of imagination
which he possessed in so eminent a degree, that coalition.had
been compared to the junction of the Rhone and the Soane.
'Whatever the effect and truth and dread of that comparison
might have been at that time, and upon that occasion, he was
not at all afraid of it then. He would not have admitted that
great and illustrious person, were. he now' living, to have
compared the late coalition to the Rhone and the Soane,
where they join at Lyons, where the one may be said to be
too calm, and tranquil, and gentle, the other to have too
much violence and rapidity, but would have advised him to
take a view of those rivers a hundred miles lower down,
where, after having mingled and united their waters, instead
of the contrast they exhibited at their junction, had become
a broad, great, and most powerful stream, flowing with the
useful velocity, that does not injure, but adorns and benefits
the country through which it passes. This was a just type
-of the late coalition; and he could venture to assert, after
mature experience, that whatever the enemies of it might
have hoped, it was as impossible to disunite or separate its
parts, as it was to separate the waters of those united rivers
he had just mentioned.


It had been mentioned that night, that it had been ob-
served repeatedly, with all that applause that was due to so
'noble and disinterested a conduct, that though his noble
friend had declared he would not retire to gratify the imper-
tinent prejudices of any individual, yet he was ready to give
way, whenever it should be necessary for the public goods
mid his retiring should be likewise to promote union, and
obtain the desirable object, the formation of a firm, efficient,
extended, united administration. When the noble lord had
made this declaration, understanding him as he had under-
stood him, his noble friend had acted a part highly to be•oP-
plauded, because highly dignified and respectable. How dif


-ferent was the conduct of the right honourable gentleman
over the way ! That right honourable gentleman, so far from


Is


1784.] TO FORM AN EFFICIENT ADMINISTRATION. 403


following the example of his noble friend, who upon the first
insinuation that he was an obstacle to union, had declared
his readiness to retire, resisted the repeated, and hitherto
uncontradicted, declarations of that House; who had again
and again asserted, that they had no confidence in him, and
that it was incumbent on him to resign, before the honour of
the House andothe constitution could be satisfied. The right
honourable gentleman, with a sullen obstinacy peculiar to
himself, resisted and pretended that his honour and his feel-
ings would be wounded, were he to resign, in obedience to
that House, and agreeable to the invariable and uniform
practice of the constitution, from the glorious period of the
Revolution to the present time. How was the honour of that
right honourable gentleman concerned? How dared he put
his honour in competition with the honour of the House?
Did the right honourable gentleman, or did any of his friends
pretend to say, that his noble friend had disgraced himself
by declaring his readiness to retire, in order to make way for
union ? Was his noble friend's honour forfeited by the sacri-
fice he had offered? On the contrary, was it not purer,
brighter, and more perfect than ever? Would the right ho-
nourable gentleman pretend to say that what every body had
praised and honoured his noble friend for doing, when hinted
by an individual, would injure or contaminate the right ho-


-


nourable gentleman, when done by him in obedience to the
constitutional requisition of that House? Understanding the
noble lord as he had understood him, understanding him to
have meant that he would not quit a scene where he was so
powerful, so useful, and so eminent, that he would not leave
a party so deservedly and so independently attached to him,
but that he would, if public tranquillity or impertinent pre-
judice required it, do all in his power to promote that tran-
quillity, he had acted a part highly praiseworthy, and one
that ought to be followed by all to whom there was any ex-
ception. But if his noble friend could be supposed to have
meant, by what he said, what he knew he had not meant,
namely, that he would relinquish all further exertion in that
House, that he would quit a scene in which he formed so ma-
terial and important a character, there was no person who
would blame such a conduct more than he should; because
he knew that such a conduct would lake away a great and.
principal mean by which a strong, vigorous, and effectual
government could alone be formed in. this country.


Mr. Fox proceeded to take notice of the addresses, upon
which so much stress had been laid in the course of the de-
bate. An honourable and learned friend of his had in a late
debate declared, that these addresses were procured by im-


D D 2




404 :MOTION TO RELY ON TILE KING'S READINESS [Feb. 20,
postures, and the expression had been called in question, but
in his opinion, with very little reason. His honourable and
learned friend had not meant to apply the word impostures to
the addressers, but to account for their having been induced
to address. When any person thought another acted in the
wrong, he knew not a more civil way of telling him so, than
by asserting that he had been imposed on and deluded. Thus
it was usual, when bad measures were carried on by bad
sisters, to declare, that the prince upon the throne had been
deluded and deceived, and it had never yet been held, that
such language was either indecent or unconstitutional; he
-could not therefore conceive that his honourable and learned
friend's expression had been such as conveyed any rudeness
in it to those who had signed any of the addresses lately sent
up to his majesty. That he disregarded the opinions of the
people no man would imagine: it had been the business of
his life to court popularity ; but there were circumstances in
which the people might err, and under such' circumstances it
became an act of duty to resist them. That he was ready to
resist them, and that he thought it right to oppose their mad-
ness, he had already shewn by his conduct during the riots
in the year 178o; and whenever they carried their passions
and prejudices to an extreme equally dangerous, he would en-
deavour to stem the torrent, and restore peace and regularity.
The voice of the people ought always to meet with attention,
though it did not always equally claim obedience; as persons
who had a will of their own might be allowed to exercise
that will even to a certain degree of injury to themselves, but
not to their destruction. In the present case, the people were
deceived, they were causing their own ruin, and therefore
their madness ought to be opposed. If that House failed in
the present struggle, and its dignity was insulted, its import-
ance in the scale of the constitution would be weakened, and
the privileges of the people suffer. It was for the people,
therefore, that he was contending, and in their cause that he
was combating; nor would he believe, that the people were
really adverse to his conduct; those who understood the
ground of the dispute, he was persuaded, were with him. In
Westminster, for instance, where lie lived, and was most
likely to know, he was sure he never had, in any period, the
real warm zeal and hearts of the people more than at pre-
sent. On a late occasion, it was true, there had been a meet-
ing of his constituents, at which it was impossible to be heard;
but then, when it was considered that a noble lord (Mahon))
whose voice that House well knew the sound of, and who
was himself an host, was present, and prevented it, there
would be no wonder at the circumstance. Allusions ,had been


174] TO roan AN EFFICIENT ADMINISTRATION. 405
made in the course of the debate to the battle at Westminster,
the battle at Hackney, and the battle at Reading. Those in-
glorious tumults, he was persuaded, did no good whatever;
of such petty warfare it might 1;se said,


Cuinque superba foret Babylon spolianda tropic
Ausoniis, umbraque erraret Crassus inulta,
Bella geri plaeuit nullos habitura triumphos,


for there certainly was no triumph, let either party gain ab
victory in such contests, while the grand concerns of Europe
were neglected.


He said he had again expressed his wish for an union,
whenever it could be brought about with safety to the honour
of the House, whenever the right honourable gentleman had
taken the only step that could reinstate the House in its for-
mer situation in the constitution, when by his resignation
and by his quitting his office in obedience to the opinion of
that House, lie should have relinquished the unconstitutional
ground upon which he stood. He wished, therefore, that
there might be no asperity, no violence, to rankle in the mind,
so as to make an union impracticable. An honourable gen-
tleman opposite to him (Commodore Keith Stewart) had
chosen to say, that his personal love of power would prevent
him from ever suffering the government of the country to go
on, unless he made a part of it. In a discussion where self
was so much the object, Mr. Fox said he certainly would not
dispute with the honourable gentleman on a point, in which
he must have so much the advantage. But . he should have
imagined that the honourable gentleman, considering those
with whom he lived, considering those with whom he . was
connected, considering. the means which the honourable gen-
tleman knew to be the best calculated for obtaining, personal
power, might have known, that had personal power been his
object, he might have possessed it again and again, if he would
have stooped to adopt such means as the honourable gentle-
man must know had been repeatedly in his power to adopt.
But if lie had any wish for power, it was not that particular
species of personal power for which he wished. The whole.
conduct of Ins life, the situation in which he stood, connected
with a great and numerous body of men, whose principle it
was to act upon the broad extended basis of public confi-
dence, and hot upon the narrow, pitiful, and destructive
ground of private favour, must prove the falsehood of every
assertion, that personal power was his object, and that unless
he obtained power upon fair, constitutional and public grounds,
he never would cease to attack the existing administration.


It had hitherto been objected against him that he fought
D D 3




404 MOTION TO RELY ON THE KING'S READINESS [Feb. 200
with too large a phalanx, that he came with so great a body,
and with such numerous friends, that no door was scarce wide
enough to admit them all. He thanked God that they were
so numerous that they could not find a way through the pas-
sage to power which was now the road to it. lie did not,
therefore, oppose the present administration for the sake of
personal power, he opposed them because they stood upon
the ground of secret influence, because they stood upon the
ground of the House of Lords against the House of Com-
mons, because, by their countenance in office, they subverted
every practical principle of the constitution of the country ;
because at a time when a firm and efficient government was
alone calculated to retrieve the country, they formed a go-
vernment that was weak, inefficient and feeble. Whoever.
wished for the liberty of the constitution, whoever wished for
energy in government, must equally unite in wishing the re-
moval of the present administration. He who was a 'Whig,
and carried the. principles of Whiggism to extremity, must"
wish it equally with a Tory, who carried to an extreme the
principles of Toryism. A Whig, who carried principle's of
Whiggism to an extreme, might be said, in his enthusiastic,
eager and glorious love of freedom, to forget the true ba-
lance of the constitution. He might wish to give more
to the popular part of the constitution than was consistent-
with a vigorous, efficacious, and active executive government.
He might be said to be so regardless of the blessings that
liberty bestowed, as to worship his favourite goddess with such
a fervid, though with what he had ever thought a laudable
zeal, as to carry it to a degree of excess prejudicial to firm-
ness and vigour. Let the extreme Whig, however, forget vi-
gour ever so much, let him court liberty with the most anxious
eagerness, he never could hope to obtain, nor to protect the
darling object of all his actions, without supporting the weight
that House had held in the constitution, without a single ex-
ception since the Revolution. Consistently with his princi-
ples, the extreme Whig must wish the destruction of an ad-
ministration formed in direct contradiction to every principle
of constitutional liberty. On the other hand, a Tory, who
carried his principles to an extreme—and he did not mean
that misled and deluded description of men, who had wished
in the last century to support the misguided race of Stuart
in all their wild pretensions to divine, hereditary, indefeasible
right, and had maintained .


their doctrines with arguments
drawn from the unconstitutional tyranny of the Rouse of
Tudor, but those who reasoned rationally, though rather
perhaps to a degree of excess upon their way of viewing the
constitution ;—a Tory, in the extreme principles of Toryism;


1734.] TO FORM AN EFFICIENT ADMINISTRATION. 407


might be said to overlook the liberty of the subject in his de-
sire of a vigorous, efficacious, and energetic government.
But however strong the bias of a Tory might be to the ex-
treme principle of his party, he must agree with him in this,
that there could be no energy, no vigour, no activity, no re-
sponsibility, none of those strong and powerful exertions
which he wished to promote, while the present administra-
tion remained. Such a Tory must see, that with the conti-
nuance, weakness, inefficiency, want of real, solid, and use-
ful exertion, must distinguish the executive power. The Whig,
therefore, as well as


istinguis
Tory, and the Tory equally with


the Whig, however opposite their principles; although the one
overlooked vigour in his search for liberty, and although the
other might be said to overlook liberty in his search for a vi-
gorous government, both must equally agree, that to attain
their respectively favourite and darling objects, the removal
of the present administration was essential, because while they
continued there was neither freedom of constitution nor energy
of government.


The true, solid, and uncontrovertible basis, upon which a
firm and efficacious government was to be built, was the con-
fidence of that House. Every act of ministers, as he had said
again and again, was founded in confidence. Not in the mere
abstract meaning of the word, but in the solid, actual, and
constant exercise of substantial confidence. Was there no
act necessary in the present situation of the country, either
for the support of the public credit; the regulation of India,
the conduct of foreign alliances, or any other great and ne-
cessary work calculated to support or retrieve the glory of the
country ? And he was sure, if there were vigorous and well-
directed exertions to those great and necessary objects, there
was yet enough of strength left to render the country great and
important amidst the nations that surround us; but there was
no one act of this sort to which confidence was not essential.
The more that confidence could be extended, the more vigo-
rous and effectual would the measures of ministers be. For
that reason he wished to extend that confidence to the greatest
degree possible consistent with the true, just, and infallible
principles of the constitution, because he knew, the more it
was clone, the more it would be possible to act in the only
manner capable of rendering this country powerfhl, eminent,
and respectable. Because by such means he should be the
more and more enabled to risk popularity at every step, by
laying burdensome but necessary taxes, and to act with that
firmness, that intrepidity, that bold integrity, which was the
only solid ground upon which a minister could act so as to
produce real and effectual advantage to the country. Great


D D 4




408 MOTION TO RELY ON THE KING'S READINESS [Feb.20.,
however as this object was, he had rather run the risk of
all those difficulties, and depend upon the same confidence
that he had hitherto experienced, than consent to any exten-
sion of it which sacrificed the very first and vital principles of
the constitution.


He desired the right honourable gentleman over against
him, or any of his friends, to point out a. single instance, not
only since the accession of the House of Brunswick, but since
the Revolution, where the minister of the crown had dared to
retain his situation one moment after he had lost the confi-
dence of that House. He knew there was not one, and there-
fore, instead of that glorious and favoured period of history
which they revered and admired for the liberty and the glory
they had experienced under it, which they revered for those
illustrious princes of the Brunswick line, under whom they
had enjoyed so many blessings, and which they wished to
hand down to the children and grandchildren, and great
grandchildren of their present gracious monarch, and which,
if the present system prevailed, were lost and gone to him and
to them for ever; instead of that glorious period, the ad-
herents of the right honourable gentleman must have recourse
to the unfortunate and accursed periods of that misguided
race, whose lives were distinguished by an uniform attempt to
subvert their liberties and overturn the constitution. Those
were the only periods to which such as supported the cause of
the secret advisers of his majesty against the representatives of
the people could have recourse.


An honourable baronet, who spoke some time ago (Sir
Richard- Hill), nd who frequently quoted the Bible, had,
upon the present occasion, Mr. Fox observed,


• chosen to en-
tertain the House with a quotation from a work of a diffe-
rent description, from a satire of the gay and witty Earl of
Rochester. He begged leave to advise the honourable baro-
net, not for the sake of a temporary laugh, to raise in the
ideas of all who heard him, the melancholy comparison of
the present moment with that sad and disgraceful sera, which,
though adorned with sonic lively, witty, and even classical
writers, was marked by every thing unfiivourable to liberty,
and subversive of the constitution. It had been at that aura,
that the prince on the throne, by the counsel of secret ad-
visers, opposed and undervalued the sense of the House of
Commons; and when the House endeavoured, by every ex-
ertion of spirit, to repeal those attempts by humble and duti-
ful addresses to the throne, the king, tired and disgusted with
parliaments, in 1681 dissolved his parliament, and never
called another during the remainder of his reign. The spirit
that arose in the country, they all knew, ended in producing
subsequent parliaments, not subservient to the prince, and in


1784.] TO FORM AN EFFICIENT ADMINISTRATION. 409


the end brought about the glorious Revolution, and drove
from the throne of England that unfortunate and misguided
race, to whose history, and to whose history alone, the right
honourable gentleman and his friends were obliged to appeal
for precedents to defend his conduct, and justify the situation
into which he had thrown his country. When they attempted
to quote the history of succeeding periods, they were under
the necessity of mis-stating every particular, in order to make
them answer their purpose. This had been done in a most
extraordinary manner by the learned solicitor general (Mr.
Pepper Arden) in a former debate. The learned gentleman
had on that occasion stated, that the House, in 1 7 01, had
addressed His Majesty King William, to remove Lord Somers,
Lord Orford, Lord Halifax, and the Earl of Portland from
his presence and councils for ever : that this address was
not complied with, and that the House received no answer
to it. Nevertheless, said the learned gentleman, the House
went on to grant the supplies exactly as if they had reposed
the most implicit confidence in those ministers From thence
the learned gentleman had inferred, that there was no ground
for refusing the supplies at present, because there was a want
of confidence in ministers. He must beg leave, Mr. Fox
said, to remind that learned gentleman, that he had-either
forgot the history to which he alluded, or done what was
worse, wilfully misrepresented it. The filet was, at the time
the address alluded to had been voted, and sent to the throne,
the noblemen in question were no longer ministers. They
had been removed in 1 7 00, and the address was an address
requesting his majesty to strike them out of the list of privy
counsellors. The money voted in 1701, and the supplies that
were granted, were not voted in confidence to the noble
lords alluded to, because they were not ministers at the time.
The only allusion, therefore, that had been made by gentle-
men on the other side of the House to a former period,
had been completely and absolutely misquoted. Indeed,
those gentlemen would find but little to their purpose in
those more happy and fortunate periods, when the liberty
of this country had been protected, cherished, and main-
tained, in all that purity and vigour that had made us the
wonder of the world. In these periods the princes on the
throne had respected that House, and their first and greatest
glory had been to attend to its wishes, and listen to its
advice. God forbid that those secret advisers of his ma-
jesty should induce our present gracious sovereign to be
the first of his name, and of his race, to neglect the coun-
sels, and turn aside from the advice of his faithful Commons ;
advice which had hitherto been well taken, and strictly fol-




410 MOTION TO RELY ON THE KING'S REAM:NE
.5S [Feb. Zee


lowed by every prince of the house of Brunswick, and the
neglect of which would brine.


us back to those dark, inglo--g
rious, and arbitrary periods of our history, that he had so
often mentioned !


The ground, the unconstitutional ground, on which the
present administration stood, was so totally new, and so
absolutely the contrivance of the present minister, and of
those advisers, of whom he hoped, for the sake of that right
honourable gentleman's reputation, lie was the tool and
the dupe, that it was not possible for him to forget what
he had said upon that subject within a very short period.
He remembered, at the time when he differed from the
noble lord near him (Lord North) upon public principles,
when the American war was the subject of debate, when
be thought the continuance of that war ruinous to the coun-
try, to have asked the noble lord, why he did not quit
a situation, which he could no longer hold consistently with
the good of the country ? The noble lord replied to him, that
it was not his mere assertion that would induce him to quit
his situation. But that as soon as he should find that he no
longer possessed the confidence of that House, he would quit
it. Mr. Fox declared, that his reply to the noble lord at
that time was, " many thanks to him, for doing what he
could not avoid ;" and he confessed at the time, he thought
the retort a good one : lie did not at that time know, that
the noble lord was setting an example of constitutional con-
duct, which was very soon to be disregarded by his successor.
He did not then know, that instead of making, what he
then thought, a good and solid answer to the noble lord,
he was guilty of a gross impertinence, for giving the noble
lord no merit nor praise, when be had so much, by resisting
every attempt that could be made to make him act contrary
to the principles of the constitution. He could now see,
indeed, why the objections to the noble lord, from certain
quarters, were so strong and vindictive. The noble lord would
not lend his name to those unconstitutional attempts of resist-
ing the opinion of that House, which had been so strangely
left to be the work of the right honourable gentleman over
against him. Had the noble lord chosen to adopt his mea-
sures, had he set at defiance the


-first grand principle of our
constitutional freedom, he would have been applauded, where
he was now reviled ; he would have been courted, where he
was now persecuted. Finding, therefore, that his best thanks
were due to the noble lord, when he declared that he would
resign when he lost the confidence of that House, for a de-
termination to act as he did, indeed in conformity to the con-
stitution, instead of the uncivil retort he then made, be did


i784.] TO FORM AN EFFICIENT ADMINISTRATION. 4f1


alOw most heartily beg pardon of. his noble friend for his short-
sighted and impertinent speech.


Mr. Fox said, he was sure, if either a dissolution of par-
liament was to take place, or a reform in the representation
to be effected, he could have no objection whatever to appeal
either to a new parliament, or to a reformed representation ;
for he defied any person to state any disadvantage that would
arise to the present majority in that House by either of those
events. He did not mean to say that there would not take
place, as at present, those small changes in numbers, which
all who attended to that House knew must take place from
accidental circumstances, but which did not, upon the whole;
essentially change the description of individuals, of which
either side was composed. If there was an alteration in the
representation, by adding to die county members, he was not
afraid of any diminution of numbers from that event. When
he looked round him, when he recollected those of that de-
scription who composed the present majority, he, found a
very great proportion of the representatives of counties, and
another description of persons equally respectable and equally
independent, though not representing counties; he meant
independent country gentlemen, who represented boroughs.
If they were to be increased, if parliament were to be dis-
solved, did the gentlemen on the other side of the House
think they would be benefitted by such an alteration? No,
the reverse was the truth. He had examined every descrip-
tion of persons respectable for their representation, respect-
able for their independence of spirit, respectable for their love
of the constitution, respectable for talents, zeal, and exertion,
in that glorious cause; he had found it extremely difficult to
discover an instance of any class or denomination where any
change, such as he had alluded to, could possibly give a ma-
jority to the present administration. At last he had been
able to lay his hand upon one set of men, who, if they were
increased, would produce a change indeed in the state of the
majority in that House. He meant those persons who pro-
cured their seats in that House by the favour of the treasury.
He believed this was rather unparliamentary language; but
he meant those persons who had obtained their situation
there by means of the noble lord near him, those who had
under the administration, and by the favour of his noble
friend, accumulated splendid fortunes. These were the per-
sons, who, if increased, might perhaps produce, the effect
that the right honourable gentleman wished. It was upon
those amen that lie depended for support; while the increase
of spirit, of independence, of respectability, would be of no




41 2 MOTION TO RELY ON TIM RING'S READINESS [Feb.
avail, the increase of ingratitude, of desertion,. of every thing
that could blacken and disgrace the character, would serve
his purpose.


He took notice of what Sir William Wake had said re,
lative to the American war having been gone into from a.
false notion of preserving the dignity of that House. That
was, he- said,_ a mistake; the American war had not been
more the war of that House than of the other branches of
the legislature; but that House had been the first to see
its errors, and to put an end to the war. He alluded. also
to Sir William Dolben's having asked a few nights since,
if the prerogatives of the crown were to be served up as a
collation, like Sancho's banquet, to feast the eye alone, and
not the appetite : he said, he by no means meant to deny,
that the prerogatives of the crown ought to be substantial;
all that he contended for was, that the House of Commons,
who granted the public money in large sums to ministers
upon confidence, had a right, at least, to have a negative
voice in the appointment of those ministers. He argued
much at large upon the eventual effect either of the con-
tinuance of the present administration, or of the return of
the last into power ; and sheaved, that neither of the two
would be able to carry on so vigorous a government as the
situation of the country required : he therefore strongly re-
commended an union, for the purpose of forming a firm,
efficient, extended, united administration, which should equally
share the confidence of the crown, and the confidence of par-
liament. He particularly insisted on the necessity that the
confidence of the sovereign should be fairly participated;
and after an ample discussion of the subject of the addresses
presented in Charles the Second's reign, and a comparison
between them and the addresses lately presented, and an in-
finite variety of arguments on general grounds, he returned,
to a consideration of the question, which he said was abso-
lutely necessary as a. kind of salvo jure to gentlemen, before
they could consent to vote the supplies in the present situa-
tion of affairs. After the question should be carried, and
he trusted it would be carried by a considerable majority, he -
declared, lie should have no objection immediately to receive
the report of the ordnance estimate, and vote that supply :
but he begged to be perfectly understood, as not by any
means giving up the constitutional right of that House to
stop the supplies; but as it was a question of infinite moment
and alarm, he wished the House to adopt every means of pro,
crastination and of delay, to avoid coming to its decision,


t 784.] TO FORM AN EFrIcIENT ADMINISTRATION.
On the question being put, the House divided :




Tellers. Tellers.
YEAS


Lord Maitland




Mr. Byng I97.—NOES R. Smitli I 177'Sir Geo Yonme 1
Majority in favour of the motion zo. While the majority were


in the lobby, Mr. Fox said, it was the idea of gentlemen who
stood near him, that in consequence of the high language which
had been held in the debate, an address should be proposed on
the motion. The members joined in an unanimous declaration of
Hear him ! He then said, that if it met with their approbation,
he would move it after the determination of this question, and
that it should be carried up to the throne by the whole House.
They joined in the same general shout on this proposition also.
When the numbers were declared, Mr. Fox and Mr. Pitt rose
together, and their friends, in pressing for their respective leader,
were loud. A good deal of clamour ensued. At length Mr. Pitt
said, that it amounted exactly to the same thing, whether the
sense of the House was taken on his motion for the Speaker to
leave the chair, or on the motion for the address, which he under-
stood the right honourable gentleman was about to propose. He
therefore yielded the point. Mr. Fox then said, that as the right
honourable gentleman and his friends had met the resolution of
that day with a high language, and had treated the House in every
respect so cavalierly, it was the idea of the gentlemen with whom
he had the honour to act, that a motion should be made, without
farther delay, for an address to the throne on the resolution of
that day, and that it should be presented by the whole House.
He entered shortly into the situation into which the obstinacy of
Mr. Pitt had brought the House, and concluded with moving for
an address to the king in the words of the resolution. After a
short debate, the House divided on Mr. Fox's motion :


Tellers. Tellers.
YEAS 1Lord Maitland }rr. R. Smith 1




Mr. Byng /7.-1 OES Mr. Eliot x56.
So it was resolved in the affirmative; and also, that the address


be presented to his majesty by the whole House.
On the 2 7 th, the Speaker read from the chair his majesty's


answer to the address of the House, which was as follows :
" Gentlemen; I am deeply sensible how highly it concerns the


honour of my crown, and the welfare of my people, which is the
object always nearest my heart, that the public affairs should be
conducted by a firm, efficient, extended, united administration,
entitled to the confidence of my people, and such as may have a
tendency to put an end to the unfortunate divisions and distrac-
tions of this country. Very recent endeavours have already been
employed, on my part, to unite in the public service, on a fair and
equal footing, those whose joint efforts appear to me most capa-
ble of producing that happy effect. These endeavours have not
had the effect I wished. I shall be always desirous of taking every
step most conducive to such an object ; but I cannot see that it
would, in any degree, be advanced by the dismission of those at
present in ray service.


453




4 1 4 ADDRESS TO THE RING [Mardi I.
" I observe, at the same time, that there is no charge or com-


plaint, suggested against my present ministers, nor is any one or
more of them specifically objected to ; and numbers of my sub-
jects have expressed to me, in the warmest manner, their satis-
faction in the late changes I have made in my councils. Under
these circumstances, I trust my faithful Commons will not wish
that the essential offices of executive government should be vacated;
until I see a prospect that such a plan of union as I have called
for, and they pointed out, may he carried into effect."


The consideration of the above answer was deferred to the
X st of March.


MR. Fox's MOTION FOR AN ADDRESS TO THE KING TQ
REMOVE HIS MINISTERS.


March i.
Fri-1E order of the day being read for taking into consideration
.1 his majesty's answer to the address of the House on the zoth


of February, and the said answer being also read,


Mr. Fox stood up, and begged that the House would allow
him to preface what he now deemed it his indispensable duty
to say, with a short review of those peculiar circumstances,
in which the House of Commons, the people of England,
and the constitution of the country, were all inevitably placed
by his majesty's late answer to the address of his Commons.
He connected all these particulars into one view, because they
were all formed to stand or fall together. It was not in the
wit or machination of man to dissever them for a moment,
and whoever made the attempt, would be taught from the
issue that it was nugatory and chimerical. But on what
()round did they now stand? I-Iad not his majesty put a
negative on their joint wishes? Was not this a situation to
which they, had not been reduced since the glorious mra of
the accession of the House of Brunswick to the throne of
these kingdoms ? The two first princes of that auspicious and
illustrious family were not, perhaps, wholly without favou-
rites : for what prince ever yet was ? Or who could blame a
king for having friends? It was the consolation of human
nature to be susceptible of such predilections as suit the pe-
culiarities of every temper, character, and situation. 'Where
was the man, or the minister, who would prescribe terms to
royalty, which would injure the feelings, and would bar the
comforts of an individual? Notwithsta,nding this, which per-


X 784.]


TO. REMOVE HIS MINISTERS. 415


baps was the feature of all reigns, unanimity marked those
both of George the First and George the Second. What-
ever attention .they might pay to secret advisers, whatever
degree of curiosity or inquisitiveness might affect their hours
of social and friendly intercourse, the harmony of the nation,
the public business, the great concerns of the nation were
seldom or never interrupted by an ill-advised and unconsti-
tutional preference of any man, or set of men, in opposition
to the representatives of the people at large. In the late
reign _especially, Lord Hardwicke evidently possessed much
of the royal confidence. His abilities were unquestionably
eminent, and justly procured much respect both at home and
.abroad; but when the circumstances of the country demanded
a surrender even of his counsels, when some of' his majesty's
subjects were in open rebellion, and when the crown was
satisfied that a new system had become indispensable, was
not every system of favouritism readily, generously, and mag-
nanimously relinquished ? Had it been otherwise, and had
those who were said to have deserved his, majesty's favour,
retained their situation, in direct opposition to all the calls
and expostulations of the House and the country, all those.
splendid and incomparable actions which graced- the subse-
quent war had most undoubtedly been prevented ; the glo-
rious victories which then took place, and overwhelmed all
Europe with astonishment, had not been acquired. The
vast appendages of the British empire must consequently
have been so little as to have excited no envy, it is true ;
but neither would they, in this hypothetical scale, have pro-
duced such emoluments, such wealth, such grandeur, such
influence in the scale of nations, as they unquestionably did.
If on that pressing and interesting occasion the system of
personal favour had not given way to objects of public safety
and tranquillity, the illustrious name of Pitt had never been
known in this country; had never given the people of Eng-
land such an influence in government as the constitution
has assigned them.; had never infused such a spirit of in-
trepidity and enterprise in the executive government of the
country, as must for ever distinguish the period in which he
reigned, and the measures which originated in his advice.


From these facts and speculations, he desired the House to
observe what part they now acted. They were, in his opi-
nion, standing up for the constitution, as enjoyed, as esta-
blished, as transmitted by their ancestors to their posterity.
This ground they had taken ; in this it was their duty to in-
trench themselves; and from this asylum lie was certain no
honest and sincere friend to the constitution would wish to
drive them.. They mere at least founded in the constitu-




416 C-
.


ADDRESS TO TEE B.:IN [March f
-don of the country, and whenever they fell, so would it.
Then were so united as to live or die together. It was now,
perhaps, more than ever, committed to their care, who had
always been its preservers; and to abandon it thus beset, thus
assaulted, thus doomed, for aught we knew, to destruction,
would be to deal perfidiously with their obligations to their
constituents and to the public. When he complained, that
no other prince of the race of Brunswick had ever given such
an answer to an address of that House, he was answered, no
House of Commons had ever made such an address. But
this question he would beg leave to answer with an anterior
question — Did ever the crown, since the accession, keep in
office a ministerial arrangement, not only without the confi-
dence of the House, but against its express requisition ? This
made the matter altogether new and unprecedented : but
new and unprecedented as it was, it did not originate in the
House; they had acted only on their defence, and would
have ill deserved the confidence reposed in them, had they
not done every thing in their power to preserve the privileges
at once of the House, and of those for whose great original
rights it was at first instituted. He referred to the case of
Sir Robert Walpole. No man ever possessed the confidence
of the House of Commons more completely than this mi-
nister. He would not enter into the question, whether he
deserved it or not; but the fact was notoriously as he had
stated it. Was he, then, resolutely inclined to dispute the
eager desires of the House to remove him ? Did he resist
all their efforts for that purpose? No; when the moment
came which convinced him that he was no longer the person
on whom they chose to rely, instead of urging the inconsis-
tency of such a revolution in the political sentiment of the
House; instead of taking shelter in the arms of prerogative;
instead of placing any dependence on those about the throne,
who had been long his fast and tried friends, he freely and
at once abandoned a station to which, from this single cir-
cumstance, he found himself inadequate. How, then, was
the constant harmony which subsisted in every part of go-
vernment sustained and cultivated? It was, at least, as often
owing to the compliance of the king with the sentiments and
wishes of his faithful commons, as of their complaisance to
his inclinations. He did not deal in the extension of prero-
gative, nor they in the assertion of their privileges. A re-
ciprocal disposition to cordiality and accommodation in case
of any accidental collision was not more predominant in the
House of Commons than at court.


Since the unfortunate reigns of the Stuarts, prerogative had
never been so much the topic of discussion as it had become


1784.]


TO REMOVE HIS MINISTERS.
417


of late in parliament. His ideas of whatever the constitution
had vested in the crown were no secret; he ever had and
ever would avow them. No prerogative of the crown was,
in his opinion, distinct or unconnected with the whole of
that free and liberal system in which our government chiefly
consisted. The people were the great source of all power,
and their welfare the sole object for which it was to be ex-
erted : but who in this case were to be the judges? The House
of Commons undoubtedly were competent to protect the rights
of the people, to pronounce on whatever they deemed an en-
croachment on their privileges; and the moment they could
not prevent every thing which struck them as such, they
were not equal to the design of such an institution. This he
called a due seasoning or modification of that enormous power
devolved by the constitution on the executive government
of the country: The House of Commons consequently were
possessed of the power of putting a negative on the choice of
ministers; they were stationed as sentinels by the people, to
watch over whatever could more or less remotely or nearly
affect their interest; so that whenever they discovered in those
nominated by his majesty to the several great offices of state,
want of ability, want of weight to render their situations re-
spectable, or want of such principles as were necessary to give
,effect to the wishes of.the House; in any or all of such cases
they were entitled to advise his majesty against employing such
persons as his faithful Commons could not trust. They would
then say to such ministers, and say if with the greatest pro-
priety, " We admire your abilities; we love your virtues; and
we wish your politics were of a sort to excite our admiration,
and conciliate our confidence: but your system is inimical to
the object we have most at heart. We wish to encreaseithe weight of the people in the constitution; your object.s to lessen their weight. We are anxious to establish a
strong, an efficient, an united administration; you endeavour
only to preserve one who possesses none of all these qualities,
We would found an executive government on public, open,
unequivocal responsibility; you are endeavouring, in its room,
to perpetuate a cabal. We assert the controul of parliament
wherever the general interest requires their interference; you
are attached only to what you imagine is the independence of
the prerogative. In short, we are the friends of the people;
they made us what we are; to them we are accountable; and
for them, as far as the constitution bears us out, we act: but
You avow sentiments so materially and flatly contradictory to
these, that we are bound in duty to withhold from you that
confidence, which your avowed attachments mid opinions mustinevitably lead you to abuse."


VOL. H.
E E




418 ADDRESS TO THE KING [March I.
Much offence was taken, it seemed, against the House of


Commons, on the score of not putting the most unlimited con-
fidence in the present ministers : but why were not the jealou-
sies, which were the causes of this treatment so loudly com-
plained of, also taken into the account? Would any man come
forward and affirm, that the House had no cause of jealousy ;
or had acted capriciously in the several steps which it bad been
obliged to take in its own defence? He begged gentlemen
would recollect the mode in which his majesty's ministers had
been called to office. What was the manner of the nomination
which took place, and was the only reason that could be al-
ledged in behalf of ministers? Were not grounds of jealousy
involved in that circumstance, which justified the diffidence of
the House, which had put them on their guard, which had
treated them with a disrespect to which they had for a long
and happy period been strangers? Thus situated, what could
they have clone, which it was their duty to do to the public, to
themselves, to his majesty ? In this was grounded their want
of confidence. It originated in that independence which was
their most precious privilege, which had long continued, and
which, he hoped, would still continue one of their proudest
distinctions. How, then, were they to act? Was it in their
power to treat his majesty with more loyalty and respect than
by addressing him as they had done ? What language did that
address speak to the throne? It told his majesty what the wishes
of the House were; that the great object to which they point-
ed all their movements was such a ministry as the circumstances
of the country required; that this object could only be obtain-
ed by the dismission of his ministers, in whom they could not
repose any real confidence, and that this obstacle his majesty
only could, and they trusted, in his paternal regard for his
people, that he would remove it. Need he say how this duti-
ful, he would call it this constitutional address (for such the
people of England, and especially their posterity, would yet
find it to be), was returned? Were the several sentiments in
his majesty's answer gracious or not ? He would not dwell on
any thing, which might bear a different construction ; but
taking it for granted that the whole House considered it as a
negative to the desires of the House, he presumed they would
agree that something farther was still necessary on their part,
This was the distinguishing feature of the present administra-
tion. They had kept the House in suspense from time to time.
It seemed to be their system, that they would not be guided
in any degree by the sentiments of a majority of the House.
No other hypothesis could give any thing like a rational solu-
tion of their conduct. The House was therefore obliged to


12


1784•]


TO REMOVE HIS MINISTERS.
419


act towards them in a manner altogether unprecedented. No
other conduct would suit their manner of proceeding.


Why, it had been asked, were the supplies not withheld ?
The reason, at least, on which he, for one, had hitherto voted
for the supplies, might strike the House as a paradox. It was
nevertheless real. He had not sufficient confidence in the
ministers of the day to withhold the supplies. This, as lie had
always maintained, was a weapon put in the power of the
House, for the advantage of the community at large. It ought,
therefore, with all their other powers, to be exerted only where
that was a probable consequence. 'When Mr. Thomas Pitt,
the present Lord Camelford, had made a similar proposition
to the House, he had voted with his lordship freely and fully.
But why? The reason was obvious to every man in the
house. He knew the temper, the principles, and the disposi-
tions of the noble lord (North), better than to suppose him ca-
pable of setting the House at defiance, in case such a motion
had been carried against him. Much as he had opposed him,
and strong as the language was, which, in the heat of debate,
he had frequently used, from a conviction that it was then his
duty to use it, still he was well aware the noble lord had a
greater respect for the constitution than to oppose his official
existence to the decided opinion of a majority in parliament.
On this principle, therefore, he had voted to stop the supplies,
in order to defeat the prosecution of a war, which he consider-
ed as ruinous in its consequences to the interest of the public.
But he could not do so in the present situation of the question.
The House had not reliance enough on the public spirit of
ministers to promise themselves any success from such a mea-
sure. They saw the effects: it would only plunge the country
in confusion. The ministers' love for the constitution was not
sufficiently visible to make them willing to risk the experiment.
Were they certain that a vote of this kind would bring back
the servants of the crown to constitutional ground, and re-
establish the consequence and importance of the House, he
was willing, as an individual, to go without hesitation into that
measure; but then he could not be supposed to adopt it on
any other principle ; for on the supposition that even this last
exertion of privilege would be resisted, into what difficulty did
it plunge the House of Commons? What infinite and irrepar-
able confusion would it not occasion in the country? He asked,
what sort of a government could take place on a principle
which did not imply the confidence of the: House? It was not
necessary for him to point out its debility and insufficiency, In
that case, considering the immense extent of those sums which,
this House were in the habit of granting, would they not hesi-


. EE 2.




420
Arun-1ms TO THE KING [March T.


tate? Thus every minute article in all the various specific es-
timates which came before them, would be constantly inspected,
scrutinized, and treated with a scrupulosity which must be
peculiarly incompatible with that dispatch so essential to the
business of the House. -What an administration would this
be How inadequate 05 the management of affairs so intricate,
important, and multifarious as ours were ! -It would only, as
his honourable friend (Mr. Burke) had lately called it, be a
body without a soul, a form destitute of spirit or power.


But still they were urged, in the language of defiance, to
do their utmost. This mode of menacing them was intended
to have its operation, and they were certainly not in the fault
that it had not. He would witness for ministers, that what-
ever men could do, and more than most men would have at-
tempted in their situation, had been done to promote their
schemes of divesting the House of all its constitutional impor-
tance and effect. 7de would not mention the peculiar industry
by which they had endeavoured to substantiate and realize
their favourite system. But undoubtedly every thing they did
would, when men's minds were relieved from the pressure un-
der which they laboured at present, be sufficiently seen through
and understood. The House, however, had hitherto treated
the whole with a delicacy, for which it deserved much credit,
and with the discerning, disinterested, and dispassionate part
of the people, would certainly be much in its favour. And he
was ready to abide by it, that to have acted with confidence
to ministers situated as those of his majesty now were, would
have been an insult to the constitution. They who had the
misfortune to be in office under circumstances thus hostile to
the people, could not have expected any such compliance; as
they must have known the temper and principles of the House •
more accurately than to build their hopes against their con-
victions. Even this most gross and precipitant conduct was
left for those times when prerogative was palpably meant to
bear down every thing. Putting all these things together,
would any one pretend that the design of his majesty's advisers.
was levelled at individuals ? He was certain no intelligent per-
son, who had inspected the genius of successive administrations
in the present reign, could entertain such an opinion for a
single moment. 'Who would aver that the present dispute,
for example, was entirely confined between the right honour-
able gentleman and himself?,No. This theory would not go
down with him. It would not have answered their purpose
who were at the bottom of the plot. It would not skew the
utter insignificance of the House of Commons. It was not
calculated to make such a breach in the legislature as ages t€1
e pure might not be able to repair. Therefore such et scheme


a.


1784.] TO REMOVE HIS MINISTERg. 421


was not adequate to their inclinations, with whom the present
no doubt began, and by whose .


influence, unless the spirit of the
people should interpose, it would assuredly be compleated.
Their object was to render the House of Commons a mere
appendage to the court, an appurtenance to the ministers.
Then the interests of the people would be happily and faith-
fully cherished by the crown and their .


hereditary representa-
tives ! It was true the House of Commons could then do no-
thing; but every function that distinguished them from the
other branches of the legislature would be found in much
greater perfection in that immaculate fortress, where no refor-
mation of any kind had ever yet entered.


He adverted to the fate of his India bill, and asked if it did
not owe its opposition, its extinction, to secret influence?
This phraseology had been censured as quaint, and used only
for sinister purposes, he would nevertheless adopt it, as re-
ferring to a circumstance, which, though in its own nature in-
capable of proof, he believed in his conscience was universally
credited. But he used the phrase secret advisers, out of that
respect and delicacy which lie should always think it became
him to speak of the prince on the throne. He well knew his
sovereign was not what these officious advisers attempted to
represent him. He was sure his heart would have no share
in the business. A noble earl had gathered the opinions for
the professed purpose of giving such information as shoult icaf-
terwards determine the royal conduct ; and had not the con-
stitution provided that his majesty should know nothing of what
was going forward in either house of parliament, with a view
to influence the debate? The House had been long acquaint-
ed with this statement. He would assert there was not a man
in the House who did not believe the reality of the circum-
stance thus related. As few, he trusted, would dare to come
forward and attempt to justify those on constitutional grounds.
Nay, it was again and again admitted to be wrong. Indeed,
there was no great probability that his majesty would have
been thus easily swayed by a stranger, when he had not com-
municated on these topics even with his confidential servants.
But the tale was not certainly in favour of the parties. Yet
neither of them endeavoured by any means to give it such a
contradiction as might have been expected. The rumour
consequently gathered ground from this circumstance, and
spread to such a degree as put all doubt or hesitation out of
the question ; and no individual but gave credit to what every
body asserted. In short, he was so convinced that this con-
viction was real, however disguised or denied, that he would
not converse with that man who affected to hesitate about it.


EE 3




1
422 ADDRESS TO THE KING- [March I.


On what, then, was the existence of the present ministers
founded? Was it possible to mistake their intention? Were
they not meant to annihilate the House of Commons, in com-
plaisance to the crown and the House of Lords?


He went at large into the history anal management of the
ministry, and traced every step of their conduct m office as all
tending to the disgrace of the House of Commons, as bearing
uniformly to that point, and as utterly inexplicable on any
other supposition. Why hurl not ministers dissolved the par-
liament? Was not this an object in which they rested many
of their hopes on the commencement of their official existence?
The temporary inconveniences which they apprehended were
the only reasons on which they had kept together. The means
on which they had come in, and by which they had intended
to govern the country, were consequently objects of suspicion
and dislike. His majesty's answer was not satisfactory. It
was very extraordinary, and such as the House had no reason
in the world to expect. The country had not for a long pe-
riod been in such circumstances. Where were the men who
could now expect to be of any substantial service to the country?
Our wants and difficulties were hourly multiplying, and would
no doubt continue to multiply. Ministers were reduced to a
line of conduct that must in a great measure hurt them with
the public. It was impossible for them to serve their country
conscientiously without hazarding many bold and unequivocal
measures. But whoever would venture on several question-
able acts, would unavoidably be unpopular., A horror of what
might:be the consequence of the present contest would also
naturally startle the minds of most men, and abridge that
confidence in public characters, without which there could •
be no stable or efficient ministry in this country, so long as it
retained its ancient and hereditary spirit. The hostility of
ministers to the constitution reduced them, therefore, to this
dilemma,—either to do something harsh and unpopular, or sur-
render their liberties without a stroke. The difficulty of act-
ing under the peculiar and original circumstances of the House
at this time, depended a great deal on the feelings of the mi-
nisters. Had those men, who were now in office, the proper
conception of their situation ; the conduct of the House was
obvious. But they were not disposed to convince mankind
that they felt like other men. They seemed, in his opinion,
not sufficiently alive to sentiments of true dignity ; or at least
he differed from them in what they doubtless thought a manly
and spirited conduct. However they would soon, and certainly
like all their predecessors in the same predicament, gather
knowledge from experience. Which of them had not felt the
capriciousness and treachery of men who had no responsibility?


7 84.] TO REMOVE HIS MINISTERS.
423


He desired the House to remember the history of Lord Chat-
ham. With how much honest confidence had that great man
entered the royal closet ! He thought his own elevated senti-
ments superior to all the duplicity which he could any where
encounter. He consequently was equal to the transcendant
abilities and virtues which he possessed, and to those astonish-
ing actions and achievements which marked their exercise in
the service of his country. But he had done too much to be
forgiven. It was his ruin, not his honour, the secret advisers
of majesty consulted. This he was not long in perceiving,
though he did not perceive it till the injury meant had taken
effect; and it was well known how it had operated both on his
character and popularity.


Having gone over an infinite variety of topics, Mr. Fox ob-
served, that he had always stated it as his opinion, that the
House could advise the removal of ministers without giving
their reasons. This was a most important question, but he
dreaded the trial of it, as the consequence might be fatal. It
ought, however, to appear to the House and the public, what
the real debate was, and on what it hinged. There was no-
thing in it personal. The House was the object to be de-
graded, and there was not another step necessary to complete
the catastrophe of the constitution. He was not. a little sorry
that the House was referred in the answer to the addresses.
This he thought a language, at least, by no means constitu-
tional, and regretted that it had been used from the throne ;
for, in his mind, there was a great difference between using it
in parliament and arguing from it as far as it would go, and
putting it in the king's answer to the address. This was giv-
ing it a consequence which he was not ready to admit, and he
would, on all occasions, be extremely shy of establishing any
thing like an appeal to the people against their representatives.
He was against adverting to precedents, where the issue was
so unfortunate to all the parties concerned ; but the reigns of
the Stuarts alone furnished the only ones which could apply
to the present dispute; and who that had read and considered
the history of those misguided and ill-advised princes, could
help observing, that they were buoyed up with addresses in the
very moment when they were virtually proscribed by the
hearts and sentiments of their people? He was not very
willing to say any thing about the addresses, either how they
were procured, or to what extent; but he would say that
there were certain constitutional questions on which they
were by no means competent to advise the House ; and what-
ever their opinion might now be of the matter pending be-
tween prerogative and privilege, he did not doubt but they


EE 4




424
ADDRESS TO THE KING [March


would one time or other be in a capacity to distinguish their
friends from those who had all along endeavoured to make
them their dupes.


He begged gentlemen would only look to both sides of the
House, and consider with themselves who were the people
most likely to form the government SO much wanted. He
had never said any thing of the present ministers with re-
gard to their abilities, as he wished in the event of an union
taking place to say nothing which could retard its progress.
But now that this great object was apparently at an end, he
would say that the right honourable gentleman over against
him possessed very eminent talents. This was a tribute which
he thought his due, and which he had never been backward
to pay. He would not, however, go over the arrangletnent
alphabetically, nor single out the several individuals of whom
it was composed. But to speak of their abilities collectively
was absolutely ridiculous; and therefore he might be allowed
to think them not of ability equal to their situation. But this
was not his only or his greatest objection to them. He did
not know how he might be able to act with men who might
possess the confidence of the secret advisers of majesty.
He and his friends, as they had lately experienced, might
then have to struggle at once with public dislike, on account
of what it was their duty to do, and secret influence, conse-
quently they could never be sure ; and this was an obstacle of
So serious a nature, that it deserved the attention of the House,
as it appeared to him almost insuperable.


He had discussed the subject_ dispassionately, as men's
minds were already but too much fermented to judge of it
coolly. He knew and maintained the power of the House of
Commons ; but as the country was circumstanced, he still
thought intermediate measures most eligible. These he
always had, and ever would prefer. His intention, therefore,
was to move an. address, in which no reference was made to
any thing which might appear ungracious, and suitable ac-
knowledgments returned for whatever, in ally part of it, would
bear a favourable interpretation. This task had devolved on
him, not because many on his side of the House were not equal
to the task, or perhaps from personal circumstances might
not have done it with more delicacy and propriety; but the
train in which he had thought on the subject, and the con-
stant attention he had ever given it, besides the satisfaction of
avowing his ideas fairly and openly, as well as the large
share he had hitherto taken in the debate', were all motives
with him for standing forward in the business. He had used
as much delicacy to ministers as he thought consistent with
his duty, while the probability of some of them acting as his


1784.E


TO REMOVE HIS MINISTERS.
425


colleagues in office remained. That probability, however, in
his opinion, had now ceased ; and he saw nothing for the
future to forbid his oivina way to those feelings and reflectionsg i g b
which from every view of the subject were unavoidable.—
Mr. Fox then moved,


" That an humble Address be presented to his majesty-
most humbly to represent to his majesty the satisfaction his
faithful Commons derive from the late most gracious as-
surances we have received that his majesty concurs with us in
opinion, that it concerns the honour of his crown, and the
welfare of his people, that the public affairs should be con-
ducted by a firm, efficient, extended, united administration,
entitled to the confidence of his people, and such as may have
a tendency to put an end to the unhappy divisions and dis-
tractions of this country :


" To acknowledge his majesty's paternal goodness, in hiss
late most gracious endeavours to give efli:ct to the object of
our late dutiful representation to his majesty:


" To lament that the iltilure of these his majesty's most
gracious endeavours should be considered as a final bar to
the accomplishment of so salutary and desirable a purpose;
and to express our concern and disappointment that his
majesty has not been advised to take any farther step towards
uniting in the public service, those whose joint efforts have
recently appeared to his majesty most capable of producing so
happy an effect.


" That this House, with all humility, claims it as their
right, and on every proper occasion feels it to be their
bounden duty, to advise his majesty touching the exercise of
any branch of his royal prerogative.


That we submit it to his majesty's royal consideration,
that the continuance of an administration which does not pos-
sess the confidence of the representatives of the people, must
be injurious to the public service.


" That this House can have no interest distinct and sepa-
rate from that of their constituents; and that they therefore
feel themselves called upon to repeat those loyal and dutiful
assurances they have already expressed, of their reliance on
his majesty's paternal regard for the welfare of his people,
that his majesty will graciously enable them to execute those
important trusts which the constitution lies vested in them,
with honour to themselves, and advantage to the public, by
the formation of a new administration appointed under cir-
cumstances which may tend to conciliate the minds of his


-faithful Commons, and to give energy and stability- to his
majesty's councils.




426 ADDRESS TO THE KING [March z.
" That as his majesty's faithful Commons, upon the ma-


turest deliberation, cannot but consider the continuance of
the present ministers as an unsurmountable obstacle to his
majesty's gracious purpose to comply with their wishes, in the
formation of such an administration as his majesty, in concur-
rence with the unanhnotts resolution of this House, seems to
think requisite in the present exigencies of the country : They
feel themselves bound to remain firm in the wish expressed to
his majesty in their late humble address ; and do therefore find
themselves obliged again to beseech his majesty, that he would.
be graciously pleased to lay the foundation of a strong and stable
government, by the previous removal of his present ministers."


A debate of considerable length ensued. In order to Itnduce
the House to reject the motion, the advocates of administration
insisted principally on the smalless of the majority by which the
resolutions of the House had been carried, and on the growing
popularity of the ministers abroad. The necessity of resisting
any encroachment upon the prerogative of the crown was also
strongly urged, and of preserving that balance in the several
branches of the legislature, to which the beauty, the permanence,
and all the envied advantages of the British constitution were
ascribed. Towards the close of the debate, Mr. Fox took occa-
sion to explain the circumstances of the late negotiation. He
said he was of opinion, that when the message came down to the
Duke of Portland, intimating his majesty's wishes that he should
have a personal interview with Mr. Pitt, to form a new adminis-
tration on a wide basis, and on fair and equal terms, there was
no probability that any serious and cordial union should be formed
from an interview grounded on such terms ; but the Duke of
Portland thought that the terms of the message might be
construed in a manner which might warrant them in agreeing
to a conference. The word " fair" no one could object to ; it
was a general term, and the parties might discuss and determine
on what they conceived to be mutually fair in settling the several
arrangements. That as to the word " equal," to which he in par-
ticular objected, his grace thought it might be meant in its more
general unlimited sense of equitable, and in that sense there could
be no objection to it. On this account the duke returned an an;
swer, requesting that Mr. Pitt would explain the word " equal,-
but Mr. Pitt declared in so many words, that he did not think
any farther preliminary explanation necessary. here the mat-
ter broke oft; for it was impossible that his grace could meet
Mr. Pitt on terms which he refused to explain. The resolution
of the St. Alban's meeting was not directed against either party :
it was fairly impartial in its purport, and censured the one
side for not explaining, as well as the other for not conceding-
Mr. Pitt explained his conduct in regard to this negotiation.
He had always declared, he said, that he would never consent
either to an actual or virtual resignation for the purpose of nego-,
dating. The message which his majesty sent to the Duke Ot


1784•] TO REMOVE HIS MINISTERS. 427
Portland was in every respect clear and unequivocal. When
desired to explain what was meant by " equal," he had said that
it would be best explained in a personal conference. His reason
for this answer, and for not agreeing to take this word out of the
message, and to let the term " fair" stand by itself, was, that by
so doing it was an implication that they came to an interview to
negotiate a new administration, admitting the Duke of Portland's
position, that " inequality was the basis of fairness." Mr. Fox
said; the objection of the duke carried no such inference. Sub-
stitute the word equitable in the room of equal, or explain what
you mean by your own term, and the difficulty is removed. Mr.
Marsham said, he trusted that gentlemen would yet put an end
to their grammatical objections and verbal delicacies, and that
an approach for a settlement might yet be made. Mr. Hopkins
said, that in this hope, and to prevent farther inflammation, he
would move the previous question.


Mr. Powys thought that unless there was any farther negocia.
tion pending between the two right honourable gentlemen, the
motion for the address should be put, since the character of the
House was involved in it. Mr. Pitt said, that no other negocia-
tion was pending; and as the question for the address was moved,
he thought it better that the sense of the House should be taken
upon it. The previous question was withdrawn.


The House then divided on the question for the address :
Tellers. Tellers.


I Lord Maitland I Sir George YongeYEAS J zot .—NoEs { Mr. Robert Smith 189.Mr. Byng
So it was resolved in the affirmative ; and agreed that the ad-


dress should be presented to his majesty by the whole House.
March 4.


The House went up to St. James's with the address. On their
return the Speaker read the king's answer, which was as follows :


" Gentlemen, I have already expressed to you how sensible
I am of the advantages to be derived from such an administra-
tion as was pointed out in your unanimous resolution. And I
assured you that I was desirous of taking every step most con-
ducive to such an object : I remain in the same sentiments ; but
I continue equally convinced that it is an object not likely to be
obtained by the dismission of my present ministers.


" I must repeat, that no charge or complaint, or any specific
objection, is yet made against any of them. If there were any
such ground for their removal at present, it ought to be equally
a reason for not admitting them as part of that extended and
united administration which you state to be requisite.


" I did not consider the failure of my recent endeavours as
a final bar to the accomplishment of the purpose which I had in
view, if it could have been obtained on those principles of fairness
and equality, without which it can neither be honourable to those
who are concerned, nor lay the foundation of such a strong and
stable government as may be of lasting advantage to the country ;




4 28 -ADDRESS TO THE KING [March 4.
but I know of no farther steps which I can take, that are likely
to remove the difficulties which obstruct that desirable end.


" I have never called in question the rights of my faithful Com-
mons, to offer me their advice, on every proper occasion, touching
the exercise of any branch of my prerogative. I shall be ready,
at all times, to receive it, and give it the most attentive considera-
tion : they will ever find me disposed to show my regard to the
true principles of the constitution, and to take such measures as
may best conduce to the prosperity of my people."


Mr. Fox rose the moment the Speaker had finished his recital of
the king's answer, and moved that his majesty's answer be taken
'into consideration on Monday next. This was unanimously as-
sented to. The order of the day was then called for from the
treasury bench, for going into a committee on the report of the
account of the finances of the East India company, presented by
the court of directors ; and Mr. Eden, who had caused the order
to be made a few days ago, moved that it be read. Upon this,
Mr. Welbore Ellis said, the House seemed to him to have laid it
down as a rule of practice, not to go into any public business
whatever until questions that immediately concerned the privilege
and dignity of the House were first disposed of. Upon this prin-
ciple he moved that the order of the day be adjourned to Monday.
Mr. Fox seconded the motion, saying, that he did it not with any
view to delay public business, or to withhold any supply ; and he
intended that his conduct should prove the sincerity of his pro-
fessions. But surely when a matter of such moment as the king's
answer was to be discussed, and to be followed up with some mea-
sure that ought to be final, he thought that twice twenty-four hours
could not be thought too long a time for deliberation. Mr. Pitt
said, the honourable gentleman wished not to be thought desirous
to stop supplies ; but when he proceeded to delay, from day to
day, it was very natural for people to think that he meant to refuse.
He did not think, that, after the manner in which the pitiful trick
of adjournment last week had been treated, another would have
been made this day to delay the public business, by another ad-
journment. The mutiny bill stood for to-morrow ; he hoped that
when gentlemen considered how very, soon the mutiny act was to
expire, they would not think it expedient to put off the considera-
tion of that bill any longer. If gentlemen should think proper to
adjourn to Monday, the House was surely too thin to discuss that
question ; all therefore that they ought in reason to expect, was,
that the House should now adjourn till to-morrow ; and then in
full House it might be determined, whether all business should be
postponed to Monday. Mr. Fox said that it was now only the 4th
of March, and the mutiny act would expire on the z5th ; there was
nothing, therefore, that was very pressing on that head; for if it


, e,
should be sent to a committee on Tuesday the 9th of March,
it could be sent time enough to the lords for them to pass it
before the expiration of the present mutiny act, for he believed it
differed in very few particulars from former mutiny bills; it. might
indeed be necessary to make the new one shorter in its duration ;
and he hoped that this ono privilege was still left to the Commons,


178 41:3 TO REMOVE HIS MINISTERS. 429
that the mutiny bill, providing quarters for the army, and conse-
quently imposing burdens on their constituents, could not be
altered by the lords, after it should have been sent up to them by
the Commons. With respect to the delay of public business, he
thought the charge came with a very bad grace from the right
honourable gentleman. Seven weeks had passed since the meet-
ing after the recess, and six weeks, wanting a day, since the only
measure proposed by the right honourable member was rejected.
In the whole course of that time he could lay at the door of Opposi-
tion a delay of only four days, namely the adjournment from Wed-
nesday last to Monday last. For his part he approved of that.
adjournment, and also of that which was this clay proposed ; how-
ever, in order to take away even a handle for misrepresentation, he.
would agree to meet to-morrow, provided it was understood that
the firsrquestion to be discussed should be, whether the House
should adjourn to Monday, or proceed then to business. Mr. Pitt
expressed with a nod his approbation of the proposal.


March 5.
The secretary at war having moved the order of the day for


going into a committee on the mutiny bill,


Mr. Fox immediately rose. He said, that as the House
had made to itself a rule that every other business should give
way to the consideration of his majesty's answers, when they
were closely connected with the privileges of the Commons,
it would not be decent either towards his majesty or the
House, to proceed on that day, to send the mutiny bill to a
committee. And, indeed, when he considered the nature of
the bill, he found it to be one of the almost inmunerable acts
which were done every session on a principle of confidence;
therefore, until the House should have taken some step to
fill up and consummate the measures which had lately been
adopted, he did not think that so very important . a bill as was
that for punishing mutiny and desertion, should be debated.
Of all the acts by which confidence in a minister could be ex-
pressed, perhaps the passing of a mutiny bill was the most
striking : it was entrusting to the direction of a minister a
standing army, of which this constitution was so justly jea-
lous. How, then, could a minister, in whom the House had
already declared it could place no confidence, expect that at
the moment, and without any previous deliberation, the
House would bestow upon him the very strongest mark of
confidence? He begged, however, not to t be understood to
insinuate in the most distant degree, that a mutiny bill ought
not to pass : he was sure there was not a man in the House
who had the most remote idea of opposing it; a mutiny bill




n


430 ADDRESS TO THE KING, &C. [March s.
was unquestionably necessary; and the House could not
avoid passing it; for a standing army, however contrary to
the genius of this constitution, was become an excrescence
that could not now be removed. But though a mutiny bill
must of necessit y pass, it by no means followed that it must
be in point of duration equal to all those mutiny acts that
had preceded it; a bill for a month or six weeks would keep
the army together, without calling upon the House to sur-
render a right so very necessary at that moment for the pre-
servation of its privileges. The delay from that-day to Mon-
day or Tuesday, could be attended with no dangerous con-
sequences. This was the 5th of March, the present mutiny
act would not expire before the 2sth, and consequently there
would be full time for sending it to the lords and for them to
pass it before the expiration of the present act. He here ob-
served, that it was to be hoped the lords would not attempt
to make any alteration in a bill, which was to all intents and
purposes a money bill: and he begged leave to conclude with
an observation, that as the House had last year passed two
or three short mutiny bills, so one of them was moved as late
as the 14th of March, though it was to replace an act that
was to expire on the 25th, and no one expressed then an ap-
prehension, that being moved so late, it could not he passed
in so short a time as was necessary ; he requested therefore,
that it might be remembered, that though the consideration
of this year's mutiny bill should be put off to Tuesday the
9th, still it would even then be moved for five days earlier
than the mutiny bill was moved for last year. He then moved,
that the order of the clay, for going into the consideration of
the mutiny bill, be adjourned to Monday next. He said he
fixed upon Monday, though he did not think there would be
time for going into the bill on that day, after the House
should have taken his majesty's answer into consideration;
but he did it to shew, that he meant to bring it forward as
soon as possible, so that it might stand the first in order for
Tuesday.


After a short debate, the House divided on Mr. Fox's motion.
Tellers. Tellers.


I Lord Maitland 17 N.Ots Mr. Eliot } 162.YEAS Byng
So it was resolved Le the affirmative.


Mr. Rob ht. Smit


1784.]


STATE OF PUBLIC AFFAIRS. 431


MR. Fox's MOTION FOR. A REPRESENTATION TO THE KING
ON THE STATE OF PUBLIC AFFAIRS.


March 8.


THE expectations of the public were so uncommonly excitedto hear the important proceedings of the House on this day,
that members took the trouble of going down with their friends
to procure them admission to the gallery at ten in the morning.
By eleven the place allotted for strangers was crowded, and the
gentlemen sat, with the utmost patience, from that hour till four


-


in the afternoon without any business ; at that time counsel was
heard on Nisbet's divorce bill ; and just as the House was proceed-
ing to the important business for which the relations and friends
of the members had undergone so much fatigue, Sir James Low.
ther rose, and complained that on bringing down his friend, the
brother of the member for St. Alban's, he found it impossible to
procure a seat in the gallery for him, though it was only at half
past three ; and this being the case, and also because he had rea-
son to believe that there might be strangers in the gallery not in-
troduced by members, he insisted upon enforcing the standing
order of the House, and desired that all strangers might be ordered
to withdraw. Many members interfered, and with great earnest-
ness solicited the honourable baronet to recede from his order ;
but Sir James had said it, and the gallery was accordingly cleared.
In consequence of this circumstance a full report of what was said
upon this occasion has not been preserved. After a laudable effort on
the part of the country gentlemen to moderate the spirit of the times,
and to procure a short adjournment, had been opposed by ministers,


Mr. Fox rose, and after a brilliant preface, containing an
exposition of the curious and uncommon circumstances of the
time, and of his own situation, stated a number of general
axioms for the government of a free state, full of the most ele-
vated policy. It was not, he said, right that the ministers of
the country should be so immediately dependent on the crown,
as it seemed now the fashion to assert they ought to be : if
their study was to please the crown, then ministers, it seemed,
were safe; but if they dared to do their duty, their own ruin
was the certain consequence: it well became the House of
Commons, therefore, not to suffer men to be disgraced and
forsaken who had been thus strenuous in their duty : it was
better, he said, to be a courtier in France than in England,
for there the king's favour was the sole object; but here the
courtier must play a double part; for he must also delude or
enslave the House of Commons into obedience to the crown
and its secret advisers. As for the king's answer, he could
not have thought it possible for any minister to put into the




432 STATE OF PUBLIC AFFAIRS. [March 8,
mouth of majesty such contradictions and such scandalous
duplicity: there were passages in it big with danger to the
freedom of this constitution ; he could not have believed that
the right honourable gentleman had so detested this constitu-
tion, he could not have believed that he would have dared so
to insult the House of Commons, as again to ask for the rea-
sons of their resolutions. Every beggar, in every arbitrary
country, had a right to petition his king, stating the reasons
ofhis petition : and this forsooth, was the mighty privilege, that
by that speech the king was advised to allow the British House
of Commons. The House of Commons had often addressed,
without stating their reasons. He then desired the clerk to
read the Address on the 27th of February 1782, in the case
of the American war, which desired his majesty to put an end
to an offensive war on that continent; as the withdrawing of
the troops from thence would give us advantage over the
French in other quarters, and would tend to conciliate the
Americans. Thus, he said, the House there gave only a ge-
neral reason, in the same manner as in their late address.
The House, in the one instance, had desired the king to
withdraw his troops for the sake of making peace with Ame-
rica: in the present case they desired the king to dismiss his
ministers, for the sake of making an united and extended
administration. It was true, that in the instance of the Ame-
rican war, the king returned an answer, declaring, indeed,
his approbation of the end they sought, but not explicitly
promising his concurrence in the means; upon which the
House instantly came to a resolution, that he should be an
enemy to his country who should advise his majesty to pro-
secute an offensive war in America.


Upon exactly similar ground the House of Commons, in
the present instance, ought to be admitted as the best judges
both of the means and of the end; and he should be per-
fectly warranted by this precedent to move a resolution;
" that he was an enemy to his country, who should advise his
majesty to continue his present administratiorr;" by the earnest
advice of some friends, however, he did not mean to propose
such a resolution; what he should move would not be an ad-
dress, but an humble Representation to his majesty, for, to
that no answer was customary; and be wished for no answer,
because nothing was so unseemly, nothing could disgrace us
more in the eyes of Europe and the world, than to see the
kin°. of England and his parliament wrangling about words,
and engaged in a controversy of such a kind. All things
considered, he said he did not intend to stop the supplies:
that the country was ruined, and completely undone, was
most clear; that public credit could not stand; that our fo-


1784 .] STATE OF PUBLIC AFFAIRS. 433.
reign concerns must run to ruin, he believed every man must
now see; those, however, were responsible, who had brought
the country into this state of distraction : for his part, so far
from stopping the supplies, he should press ministers to bring
forward the public business; lie would bring on his own
amended India bill : bat if it was lost in the other House,
ministers were bound to come forward with sonic new plan
ter India: and, indeed, every part of our public affairs cried
aloud for their instant attention.


Mr. Fox then defended Mr. Powys and Mr. Marsham
from the charge of inconsistency; he said they could not abet
ministers, for whom they professed even a predilection, in
their resistance to the House of Commons. Some there were
who had agreed with him in the outset of the dispute, but
who, as appeared by the decrease of the majorities, had gone
over to the side of administration. How to defend the con-
sistency of such men was indeed difficult; and it was some
comfort to find, that, on examining the persons of such de-
serters, it appeared that those who had come over to him
were -men every way respectable; while those who had left
him, on the other hand, (as was naturally to be expected) were
men of whose company and of whose society no man, he be-
lieved, was ever very ambitious. Mr. Fox said a few words
concerning the total impossibility of union which now ap-
peared; the right honourable gentleman had proved himself
so averse to it, even in the opinion of some who were his
friends, that the world would know on which side to lay the
blame, and who it was that they were to charge with immo-
derate ambition. He then moved,


" That an humble Representation be presented to his ma-
jesty, most humbly to testify the surprize and affliction of this
House, on receiving the Answer which his majesty's minis-
ters have advised, to the dutiful and seasonable address of
this House, concerning one of the most important acts of his
majesty's government:


" To express our concern, that when his majesty's paternal
goodness has graciously inclined his majesty to be sensible of
the advantage to be derived from such an administration as
was pointed out in our resolution, his majesty should still be
induced to prefer the opinions of individuals tixthe repeated
advice of the representatives of the people in parliament as-
sembled, with respect to the means of obtaining so desirable
an end :


" To represent to his majesty, that a preference of this na-
ture is as injurious to the true interests of the crown, as it is
wholly repugnant to the spirit of our free constitution; that
systems founded on such a preference are not, in truth, en-


VOL. II.
FF




434 STATE OF PUBLIC ArrAms. [March 8.
tirely new in this country : that they have been the character-
istic features of those unfortunatereigns, the maxims of which
are now justly and universally exploded; while his majesty and
his royal progenitors have been fixed in the hearts of their
people, and have commanded the respect and admiration of
all the nations of the earth, by a constant and uniform at-
tention to the advice of their commons, however adverse such
advice may have been to the opinions of the executive servants
of the crown :


" To assure his majesty, that we neither have disputed,
nor mean, in any instance, to dispute, much less to deny,
his majesty's undoubted prerogative of appointing to the exe-
cutive offices of state such persons as to his majesty's wisdom
shall seem meet : but, at the same time, that we must, with
all humility, again submit to his majesty's royal wisdom, that
no administration, however legally appointed, can serve his
majesty and the public with effect which does not enjoy the
confidence of this House : That in his majesty's present ad-
ministration we cannot confide; the circumstances under
Which it was constituted, and the grounds upon which it con-
tinues, have created just suspicions in the breasts of his faith-
ful Commons, that principles are adopted, and views enter-
tained, unfriendly to the privileges of this House, and to the
freedom of our excellent constitution : That we have made no
charge against any of them, because it is their removal, and
not their punishment, which we have desired; and that we
humbly conceive, we arc warranted by the antient usage
of this House, to desire such removal without making any
charge whatever : That confidence may be very prudently
withheld, where no criminal process can be properly insti-
tuted : that although we have made no criminal charge against
any individual of his majesty's ministers, yet with all humility
we do conceive, that we have stated to his majesty very distinct
objections, and very forcible reasons, against their continu-
ance : That with regard to the propriety of admitting either
the present ministers, or any other persons, as a part of that
extended and united administration, which his majesty, in
concurrence with the sentiments of this House, considers as
requisite, it is a point upon which we are too well acquainted
with the bounds of our duty to presume to offer any advice to
his majesty, well knowing it to be the undoubted prerogative
of his majesty to appoint his ministers without any previous
advice from either House of parliament, and our duty hum-
bly to offer to his majesty our advice, when such appointments
shall appear to us to be prejudicial to the public service :


" To acknowledge, with gratitude, his majesty's goodnes s, la
pot considering the failure-Of his recent endeavours as a final


7 84.] STATE Or PUBLIC AFFAIRS.
435


bar to the accomplishment of the gracious purpose which
his majesty has in view ; and to express the great concern and
mortification with which we find ourselves obliged to declare,
that the consolation which we should naturally have derived
from his majesty's most gracious disposition, is considerably
abated, by understanding that his majesty's advisers have not
thought fit to suggest to his majesty any farther steps to re-
move the difficulties which obstruct so desirable an end:


" To recal to his majesty's recollection, that his faithful
Commons have already submitted to his majesty, most humbly,
but most distinctly, their opinion upon this subject : that they
can have no interests but those of his majesty, and of their


j
constituents; whereas, it is needless to suggest to his ma-
esty's wisdom and discernment, that individual advisers may
be actuated by very different motives :


". To express our most unfeigned gratitude for his majesty's
royal assurances, that he does not call in question the right of
this House to offer their advice to his majesty on every proper
occasion, touching the exercise of any branch of his royal
prerogative, and of his majesty's readiness, at all times, to
receive such advice, and to give it the most attentive con-
sideration :


" To declare, that we recognize in these gracious ex-
pressions those excellent and constitutional sentiments, which
we have ever been accustomed to hoar from the throne since
the glorious ira of the revolution, and which have peculiarly
characterized his majesty, and the princes of his illustrious
house; but, to lament that these most gracious expressions,
while they inspire us with additional affection and gratitude
towards his majesty's royal person, do not a little contribute
to increase our suspicions of those men who have advised his
majesty in direct contradiction to these assurances, to neglect
the advice of his Commons, and to retain in his service an
administration, whose continuance in office we have so repeat-
edly and so distinctly condemned :


" To represent to his majesty, that it has anciently been
the practice of this House to withhold supplies until griev-
ances were redressed; and, that if we were to follow this
course in the present conjuncture, we should be warranted in
our proceeding, as well by the most approved precedents, as
by the spirit of the constitution itself; but if, in consideration
of the very peculiar exigencies of the times, we should be
induced to wave, for the present, the exercise, in this instance,
of our undoubted, legal, and constitutional mode of obtain-
ing redress, that we humbly implore his majesty not to, im-
pute our forbearance to any want of sincerity in our cam-
plaints or distrust in the justice of our cause :


F P 2




STATE OF PUBLIC AFFAIRS. [March 8.
" That we know, and are sure, that the prosp erity of his


majesty's dominions in former times has been, under Divine
Providence, owing to the harmony which has for near a cen-
tury prevailed uninterruptedly between the crown and this
House: that we are convinced, that there is no way to ex,
tricate this country from its present difficulties, but by pur-
suing the same system to which we have been indebted at va-
rious periods of our history for our successes abroad, and
which is at all times so necessary for our tranquillity at home:
that we feel the continuance of the present administration to
be an innovation upon that happy system : that we cannot
but expect, from their existence under the displeasure of this
House, every misfortune naturally incident to a weak and
distracted government : that if we had concealed from his
majesty our honest sentiments upon this important crisis, we
should have been in some degree responsible for the mischiefs
which are but too certain to ensue :


" That we have done our duty to his majesty and our con-
stituents in pointing out the evil, and in humbly imploring
redress : that the blame and responsibility must now lie wholly
upon those who have presumed to advise his majesty to act
in contradiction to the uniform maxims which have hitherto
governed the conduct of his majesty, as well as every other
prince of his illustrious house; upon those who have disre-
garded the opinions, and neglected the admonitions of the
representatives of his people, and who have thereby attempted
to set up a new system of executive administration, which,
wanting the confidence of this House, and acting in defiance
to our resolutions, must prove at once inadequate, by its
inefficiency, to the necessary objects of government, and
dangerous, by its example, to the liberties of the people." -


After a debate which lasted till twelve o'clock, the House di-
vided :


Tellers. Tellers.
Lord Maitland} SteeleYEAS { Mr. Byng Robt. Smith 1-9°.


Mr. Fox's motion was consequently carried by a majority of
This representation was the last effort made by Opposition. On


the Toth of March the mutiny bill passed without a division. A ge
-neral report now prevailed, that parliament was to be immediately


dissolved. All the supplies had been regularly voted, to the
amount of near ten millions, but, with the exception of the land
and malt tax bills, no money had been raised or appropriated to
specific services. It was, however, contended, that the voting of the
supplies would be a sufficient justification to the ministry for issuing
money for the necessary expenditure of government. On the
other side it was urged, that the House having resol ved, that such


17841 WESTMINSTER SCRUTINY. 437
issuing of the public money would be subversive of the con-
stitution, and an high crime and misdemeanor, no plea of neces-
sity could be available, since the emergency would be wilfully cre-
ated by those who should advise his majesty to dissolve the par-
liament. The most pointed personalities were addressed to
Mr. Pitt on this subject, but in vain ; he persevered in an absolute
refusal to discuss the points at all ; and on the 24th of March the
parliament was prorogued, and the day following dissolved by pro-
clamation.


WESTMINSTER SCRUTINY.


May 24.


AT the general election, Lord Hood, Mr. Fox, and Sir CecilWray, offered themselves as candidates to represent that city
in parliament*. The first of these gentlemen was elected by a


Upon this occasion Mr. Fox published the following Addresses to the
electors of Westminster.


To the worthy and independent electors of the city and liberty of
Westminster.


Gentlemen,
His majesty's ministers having thought fit, in contradiction to their own


declarations, in defiance of the sense of the House of Commons, and
without any public pretence whatever, to subject the nation to all the in-
conveniences which must infallibly attend a dissolution of parliament at the
present moment, I humbly beg leave, once more, to solicit the favour of
your votes and interest, to represent this great and repectable city.


To secure to the people of this country the weight which belongs to
them in the scale of the constitution, has ever been the principle of my
political conduct.


Conscious that in every situation, (whether in or out of office,) I have in-
variably adhered to this system, I cannot but flatter myself that you will
again give your sanction to those principles which first recommended me to
your notice, and which induced you, at two subsequent periods, to honour
me with your suffrages. I have the honour to be, gentlemen, &c.


C. J. Fox.
St. James's-street, March 24.


To the worthy and independent electors of the city and liberty of
Westminster.


Gentlemen,
When the popular delusion in favour of the present ministry was sup


posed to be most prevalent, I was confident that the good sense and
steadiness of the electors of Westminster would be a proof against every
art and every temptation.


The unparalleled success which I have experienced upon my canvass,
•3




43 8WESTMINSTER SCRUTINY. [May 24.
very large -majority ; the struggle betwixt the two last was long
and obstinate : after continuing the contest. for upwards of six
weeks, it was finally concluded on the i 7th day of May 1784, leav-
ing a majority of 235 voters in favour of Mr. Fox. The high bailiff,
at the requisition of Sir Cecil Wray, the unsuccessful candidate,
granted a scrutiny into the poll which he had taken, on the day on
which it closed, and which was the day previous to the return of


fully justifies this confidence, and I have the greatest reason to expect that
your partiality towards me will appear to have encreased in proportion to
the persecution of my enemies.


As I have ever stood forth, and am always resolved. to continue firm in
the cause of the people, so it is not to be wondered at that I should at all
times be the object of the enmity of that pernicious faction whose princi-
ples are as adverse to the constitution as , the dark and secret manner in
which they have endeavoured to enforce them.


It would have been my most earnest wish to have paid my respects in
person to every individual elector, if the extent of the city had not made
it impossible.


The very flattering reception I have met with among those whom I have
had the opportunity of seeing, cannot but add to my regret upon this
account.


My public conduct is too well known to you to make any professions
necessary ; upon that ground I first experienced your partiality ; upon that
alone I can expect to retain it.


To you who have approved it, I need say no more ; and I will not be
guilty of the unbecoming flattery to those who have differed from me, as to
pretend that I shall in any degree deviate from that line of political con-
duct which first recommended me to your notice.


Upon these tried principles, I once more beg leave to solicit 'your votes,
interest, and poll, at the ensuing election ; and I do assure you that no ex-
pressions can do justice to the sentiments of gratitude and esteem with
which I am, gentlemen, &c.


C. J. Fox.
St. James's-Street, March 31 ,


1784.


To the worthy and independent electors of the city and liberties of
Westminster.


Gentlemen,
The present state of the poll exhibits a glorious example of what may be


expected from the perseverance of independent men in the cause of liberty
and the constitution.


I beg leave most earnestly to solicit the continuance of your generous
exertions in my favour.— The importance of every individual vote is now
sufficiently evident; and the number of electors who have assured me that
they would come forward whenever it should appear that their vote might
probably be decisive, leaves me no doubt of success.


The unprecedented exertions which the servants of the crown have
thought themselves at liberty to make against me, as well by an indecent
prostitution of the most sacred names, as by every other species of uncon-
stitutional influence, have produced the effects naturally to be expected
from such proceedings, by raising the spirit and awakening the indignation
of every honest and independent elector.


My public life is too well known to you to make any professions neces7
sar,y. Those principles which brought about the glorious revolution, which


I


1784.] WESTMINSTER SCRUTINY. 439
his writ. This mode of proceeding was on the spot formally pro,
tested against by Mr. Fox, and also by several of the electors.
Immediately on the meeting of the new parliament, the conduct
of the high bailiff in granting-the scrutiny, under the circumstances
above-mentioned, was warmly taken up by Opposition, and as warm-
ly defended by the minister and his friends.


On the 24th of May, Mr. Lee moved, " That Thomas Corbett,
bailiff of the liberty of the dean and chapter of the collegiate
church of St. Peter, at Westminster, whose duty it was to execute
the precept directed to him by the sheriff of Middlesex, for the
election of two citizens to serve in the present parliament for the
city of Westminster, and to return the same to the sheriff on or
before the 18th day of May inst., being the day on which the pre-
sent parliament was appointed to be holden, having proceeded to
take, and having finally closed the poll before the said 18th day of
May, ought to have returned two citizens to serve in parliament
for the said city." The master of the rolls, Sir Lloyd Kenyon, on
moving the previous question, said, that nothing had ever surprised
him more than the conduct of his learned friend, who ought to be
so strict an observer of those principles laid down by law and reason,
without which justice could not be administered between man and
man : the great principle to which he principally alluded and which
his learned friend seemed to have totally forgotten, or overlooked
on the present occasion, was that which bound a judge not to con-
demn on partial evidence ; and not to punish any man without hav-
ing first given him a hearing ; audi alterani parkin was an eternal
and immutable law of justice, by which every tribunal was bound.
But it was not a little singular, that while his learned friend was con-
demning a returning officer for what he called a breach of law, he
himself was endeavouring to persuade the House to violate the most
obvious rule of law, justice, and equity ; for he was calling for cen-
sure and for punishment on the high bailiff, without giving that
gentleman an opportunity to defend himself.


Mr. Fox said, that in the whole course of his life he never
was witness to so gross a perversion of the meaning of the ex-


seated his majesty's illustrious family upon the throne, and which have pre-
served the liberty of this constitution, have ever been the inviolable rule of
my political conduct.


Upon these grounds I again presume to request your support; and if I
should be happy enough to be re-elected representative of this great and
respectable city, you may depend upon finding in me a steady supporter of
the wing cause, a determined enemy to that secret influence by which the
present administration was created, and an unalterable friend to the rights
of the people.


I am, with every sentiment of gratitude and respect, gentlemen, &c.
C. J. Fox.


St. James's-Street, April z6, 1784.


F F
4




440 'WESTMINSTER SCRUTINY. • [May 24.
pression audi altera?n pa•tem, as the learned gentleman had
furnished him with this day. Who, in fact, was the party be-
fore the House? Who the party absent and unheard ? The
high bailiff was, in fact and in truth; so far from being absent,
the only' party that was before the House ; his conduct was
avowed, the reasons for that conduct were upon the table.
He himself (Mr. Fox) was another party r but though he was ac-
tually present as member for another place, still he was virtu-
ally absent; and therefore i f any one was unheard, it was himself.
He little expected that a question of this kind would have been
made a party question. He drew a good omen a few days ago
from what a right honourable gentleman said, when he ob-
served, that motions ought to be considered on there own in-
trinsic merit, and totally distinct from any consideration of the
persons by whom made, or by whom supported : on this ground
he expected this motion would have been debated. But good
as was the omen lie drew on Tuesday last, that which pre-
sented itself to him now, from the manner in which the mo-
tion made by his learned friend was received, was as bad.
The case of the sheriffs of Coventry, he contended, had no-
thing in common with the present; in the kind of return that
they made to the House, they stated that they had been pre-
vented by tumults and riots from obeying the king's writ.
The excuse turned upon a matter of fact: the allegation
might be true; it might be false ; and therefore enquiry was
absolutely necessary : but in the present case, the point for
consideration was a point of law, not of fact; and_ therefore
the House was competent to determine it at this moment, as
well as after a month's enquiry : the question was, whether
a returning officer was, or was not, bound to return the mem-
ber on the day on which the writ was returnable? And there-
fore there would be no injustice to the high bailiff, if the
House should proceed without any farther inquiry to deter-
mine that question. • Nay, though it should determine it in the
affirmative, it did not follow that. such a determination would
even imply a censure on him ; nothing was more common than
for committees to order returns to be amended; and yet no
one ever imagined that the returning officer was thereby Cen-
sured by implication. It was the case in the great Oxford-
shire contest, when the sheriff' returned the three candidates.
The House amended the return, but no one thought the sheriff
censured; on the contrary, his conduct was pronounced to be
fair and impartial. •


It had been hinted, he said, that he would have demanded
a scrutiny, if he had had the minority at the close of the poll;
nay, that he had pledged himself to support a scrutiny. The
truth was, he never pledged himself to support a scrutiny;


1 784.]


WESTMINSTER SCRUTINY.
44


but unquestionably he had pledged himself to institute an in-
quiry before that tribunal, which, from its nature, was least
liable to partiality, and which was vested by law with powers
to procure evidence: before a committee, under Mr. Grenville's
act, he certainly Meant to bring and there it should be pro-
secuted, if he was permitted to appeal to it. He was ready to
admit, that if' the poll had been closed earlier in the month
than it was, he would have demanded a scrutiny, but without
the most distant idea of bringing it to a conclusion before the
high bailiff; and that officer could tell from private conversa-
tion with him, that he had said the same thing to him : but
what would have begun in a scrutiny, should have ended in an
enquiry biAbre a select committee of the House of Commons.
A scrutiny, under the present circumstances, could answer no
other end than thatf trying the strength of purses : a very
unequal contest indeed, when it was considered by whom his
adversary was supported !


It had been hinted, also, that he had spun out the poll;
the fact was the reverse, for he could declare upon his ho-
nour, that until Thar:day or Friday last, no proposal had
been made to him from any authority, to close the poll: that
it lasted from that time till the Monday following, was cer-
tainly his act; and his reason for keeping the poll open to the
last moment, was, that he was resolved to make the high
bailiff acknowledge, that the poll ought to be closed on or be-
fore the day on which the writ was returnable; or that it
might be kept open after. Now, the high bailiff had closed
the poll by his own authority, saying, that he could not carry
it on after the day that his writ was returnable : — it was
not closed, because there were no more electors to poll, for•
that was not the case ;—nor_was it closed by the mutual con-
sent of the candidates; for he had not consented to it : so that
it was the high bailiff that closed it by his own authority ; and
the reason assigned by him was, that he must return the writ,
and therefore he must close the books. Now, he would ask
those who contended that the high bailiff was notfrichts tyfudo
on the 18th instant, because a scrutiny was in fact nothing
but a poll, why he should hold himself obliged to close the
poll on the 17th, anti yet carry it on afterwards under the
name of a scrutiny? To such a man he would always object
as a returning officer; for as there was nothi N


so like a poll
as a scrutiny, so there was nothing so like homas Corbett
on the hustings in Covent Garden, as Thomas Corbett in the
vestry-room of St. Paul's, St. Ann's, Ste. But those who had
advised the curious return he made, were resolved, that as
far as in them lay, he should not have even the possibility of
appealing to any other tribunal, if he should decline a scrutiny




442 WESTMINSTER SCRUTINY. [May 24, 1784.] WESTMINSTER SCRUTINY. 44;3
before the high bailiff; for they had drawn up the return in
such a form, that he was afraid he should not be able to com-
plain of it in such a manner as to have it referred to a corn-
mittee of the House. Find Sir Cecil Wray been returned,
then he might complain of that return, and so bring it to a
determination. However, he pledged himself to those in-
dependent electors, who had so nobly supported him, to
have the election brought before a committee in some way or
other ; he owed it to them ; he owed it to the country, he
owed it to himself.


The principle of Mr. Grenville's bill was to prevent party,
or power, or faction, let gentlemen call it by what name they
pleased, from availing itself of its numbers, to determine an
election, and so keep out of the House a character disliked
by ministers, or force upon the constituents a representative
whom they had not elected. This was certainly a good princi-
ple ; but, if the doctrine should prevail, that elections might be
kept open after the return-day of the writ, might not ministers
entirely defeat this principle? With the returning officers under
their influence, they might cause a scrutiny to be demanded,
and granted, and spun out to such a length, that places
might actually be kept for a whole parliament without repre-
sentatives. In the present case, however, the law gave him
a popular action against the high bailiff, which he was deter-
mined to pursue; for the statute of the loth and 1 i th of Wil-
liam III. said, " 4 That every sheriff, or other officer or officers
aforesaid, who shall not make the returns according to the
true intent and meaning of this act, shall forfeit for every
such offence the sum of cool., one moiety whereof shall go to
his majesty, and the other to him or them that shall sue for
the same," &c. If the House should order him to proceed
with the scrutiny, he must obey ; but he must protest against
a measure, which could tend only to drain the pockets of pub-
lic-spirited men ; and which in its very nature must be inef-
ficacious, as the scrutiny for London would clearly demon-
strate; for, as during eight or nine days, only as many votes
were disqualified, he would have the rule of three adopted, to
ascertain in what length of time the scrutineers could get
through six thousand votes. The noble lord wished to have
the business brought before the high bailiff, who, he said,
would get through it in five months ; but who told him that ?
The scrutiny in the case of Trentham and Va ► deput lasted
five months, though it was cut off in the middle. The noble
lord admitted for argument's sake, that precepts and writs
were in their nature synonymous ; he might have admitted it
for the sake of truth ; but the noble lord used the firmer, be-
cause he was much more attached to argument than to truth.


As to the numbers on the poll, which to the returning of-
ficer, as it had been very properly said, ought to have been
conclusive, he had not a doubt but there was of them a legal
majority in his favour. From the time that his adversary's
majority began to fall off, the parish books were produced,
and the electors were scrutinized as they offered themselves ;
and upon this sort of scrutiny he had almost every clay gained
upon his adversary; and as for the last fourteen days, not
more than thirty or forty polled on a day, the high bailiff
might very easily have been able to make up his mind upon
the legality of the votes, which would not have been so easy a
task if the electors had polled by hundreds as at the beginning
of the election ; and therefore he could now see no ground for
a scrutiny. He declared, he wished Sir Cecil V/ray was re-
turned, that there might be such a return before the House as
he should be able to bring before a select committee. He
concluded by observing, that the arguments drawn from writs
offtri facias, did not apply in this case; for in the former,
the court out of which they issued, might enlarge them,
whereas the king issued the writs for calling parliaments, but
the House of Commons enjoyed the exclusive privilege of
judging of the returns.


The House divided on the previous question :




Tellers. Tellers.
yEA s {Lord Maitland ) ( Mr. R. Smith J 203.


Mr. N rth
j 136. NOES 1 Mr. Steele


So it 'passed in the negative.


May 25.


A petition was presented to the House from Mr. Fox, setting
forth : " That at the late election of two citizens to serve in this
present parliament for the city of Westminster, the right honour-
able Sir Samuel Hood, baronet, Baron Hood of the kingdom of
Ireland, Sir Cecil Wray, baronet, and the petitioner, were candi-
dates ; and that, a poll being demanded, the same was opened by
Thomas Corbett, bailiff of the liberty of the dean and chapter of
the collegiate church of Saint Peter at Westminster, on the 1st
Day of April 1784, and continued from day to day, Sundays ex-
cepted, until the 17th day of May, being the day before the day
on which this present parliament was summoned to meet, and when
the writs for the election of members to serve therein were com-
manded to be returned ; on which said 17 th clay of May, at three of
the clock in the afternoon, the s aid Thomas Corbett finally. closed




444 WESTMINSTER SCRUTINY. [May 25.
the said poll ; and that the numbers upon the said poll, at the final
close of the same, were as follows, viz. For Lord Hood 6694— For
the petitioner 62 33 —For Sir Cecil Wray 5998; and that, in conse-
quence of an agreement proposed by Lord Viscount Mahon, on the
part of Lord Hood and Sir Cecil Wray, and entered into between
the said candidates at the commencement of the said poll, eleven
inspectors on each side, and five friends on each side, constantly
attended the said poll, and no vote to which any objection was
made, was received for the petitioner on the said poll, without an
appeal to the presiding officer, and his decision that such vote was
good ; and that, in the early part of the said poll, Sir Cecil Wray
obtained a majority of votes thereon, to the number of 318, and
that, from the time such majority began to be diminished, to the
final close of the said poll, almost every vote which was tendered
for the petitioner was vehemently contested, and every objection
which could be suggested, either by inspectors, friends, or coun-
sel, was made thereto ; and that the said poll was finally closed
by the said Thomas Corbett, neither by the consent of the candi-
dates, nor after a certain interval, without the tender of any vote,
but by his the bailiff's own authority, because the king's writ to
the sheriff commanded the same to be returned by the 18th day
of May 1784 ; and that the said precept from the sheriff to the
bailiff of Westminster, after informing the said bailiff' that he the
said sheriff had received a certain writ of the king to him di-
rected, which is in such precept set out in the very words thereof,
commands the said bailiff to cause two citizens to be elected for
the said city, according to the exigency of the. said writ, and in
what manner he shall have executed that precept, immediately
after the said election, to make known to the said sheriff, so that
he may certify the same to the king in his chancery, as by the said
writ he is commanded ; and that not only the plain and precise


„terms of the said writ and precept, but the constant and invariable
usage of parliament, require a return of members to serve in
parliament on or before the 18th day of May, being, in this in-
stance, the day on which the parliament was summoned - to meet ;
and that the act of the tenth and eleventh of King William the
third, chap. 7., loth positively and unequivocally require the
sheriff, or other officer, having the execution and return of any
writ fir the election of members to serve in any new parliament
summoned and called, to make return of the same on or before the
day that such parliament shall be called to meet ; and that, after
the final close of the said poll, at three of the clock in the after-
noon, on the 17th day of May, a scrutiny of the said poll was de-
manded on behalf of Sir Cecil Wray, which was immediately ob-
jected to by the petitioner, who strongly urged that such scru-
tiny could not be proceeded upon by the said bailiff after the
time on which, by law, he was required to return the said writ,
and that, when he had finally closed the said because by
law he had no power to continue the same any longer, it would
be inconsistent and absurd to grant a scrutiny into such poll, to
commence and be proceeded upon by him after his power to
continue such poll was terminated ; yet the said bailiff' did . take


1784.] WESTMINSTER SCRUTINY. 445
upon him, contrary to the exigency of the writ, the positive in-
junctions of the said statute, and the invariable law and usage of
parliament, in the most arbitrary and illegal manner, to declare
that he would grant such scrutiny, to commence and be pro-
ceeded upon after the day appointed for the return of the writs
for summoning this parliament ; and that, immediately after the
final close of the poll, and casting up the numbers, which ap-
peared to be in favour of Lord Hood and the petitioner, the
electors of the said city and liberty caused an indenture of re-
turn of Lord Hood and the petitioner, executed by the said
electors, to be tendered to the said high bailiff, but he positively
refused to accept ur to execute the same ; and that, notwithstand-
ing such pretence of granting a scrutiny, the said bailiff, being well
aware that he was bound by law to make a return on or before
the said 18th day of May, and that it• was not lawful for him, on
any pretence, to refuse or neglect to make a return, did on the
said 17th day of May make to the sheriff of Middlesex the re-
turn hereinafter set forth ; and that the sheriff of the county of
Middlesex has made the following return to the clerk of the
crown : ' The sheriff of the county of Middlesex certifies and


returns that, by virtue of the writ to him directed, he, on the
26th day of March, in the twenty-fourth year of his present
majesty's reign, duly made and delivered his precept to the bailiff
of the liberty of the dean and chapter of the collegiate church


' of St. Peter at Westminster, whereby he commanded him, with-
' out delay, to cause two citizens to be elected for the said city ;


and that, on the 17th May, in the year aforesaid, he did receive
from the said bailiff a return or answer to the said precept, and


• which he hath annexed to the writ to him the said sheriff directed,
and which return or answer is in the words and figures following :
— Thomas Corbett, bailiff of the liberty of the dean and chapter of


• the collegiate church of St. Peter at Westminster, in the county
of Middlesex, cloth hereby certify unto the sheriff of the said
county of Middlesex, that, by virtue of a certain precept, dated


• the twenty-sixth day of March last, and on the same day de-
' livered to him the said bailiff by the said sheriff, for the dee-
' tion of two citizens to serve in the ensuing parliament for the


city of Westminster, and by virtue of the writ therein recited
• (proclamation of the premises in the said precept first mentioned,
• of the day and place, as in the said precept is directed, first
being made), he the said bailiff did proceed to the election of
two citizens to serve in the ensuing parliament for the said
city of Westminster, on the first day of April now last past ;


• on which day appeared, and were put in nomination, the three
candidates hereinafter named, and a poll being demanded, he.
the said bailiff did forthwith proceed to take the said poll,
and continued to take the same day by day, during six hours
each day, viz. from nine in the forenoon to three in the after-


' noon, until the clay of the date of these presents, inclusive ;
• on which day the said poll was finally closed, when the numbers


on the said poll, for the said several candidates, stood as follows,
viz. For the Right-Honourable Sir Samuel Hood, baronet; Baron




446 WESTMINSTER SCR UTIInTY. [May 25.
Hood of the kingdom of Ireland, 6694


—For the Right Honour..
able Charles James Fox 6233—For Sir Cecil Wray, baronet,


= 5998; and the said bailiff further sets forth, that, on the said final
close of the poll, a scrutiny was duly demanded in behalf of the
said Sir Cecil Wray, which scrutiny the said bailiff has granted,


4 for the purpose of investigating the legality of the votes more ac-
curately than could be done upon the said poll ; and the said scru-


' tiny so granted is now pending and undetermined ; and, by reason
of the premises, the said bailiff humbly conceives he cannot make
any other or further return to the said precept than as herein-


' before is contained, until the said scrutiny shall he determined,
which he fully intends to proceed upon with all practicable dis-


- patch. In witness whereof, he the said Thomas Corbett, bailiff
of the said liberty, bath hereunto set his hand and seal, the seven-


' teenth day of May, in the year of our Lord one thousand seven
hundred and eighty-four. Thomas Corbett, bailiff:' And that the


said bailiff, in refusing to execute the said indenture tendered to
him, and to return the petitioner as one of the two citizens duly
elected to serve in parliament for the said city, according to the
usual course of proceeding in such cases, and in the common and
established form of returns, and in making such special return as
aforesaid, has conducted himself in a manner equally arbitrary, il-
legal, unconstitutional, and unprecedented, and which, if counte-
nanced, would not only totally subvert the ancient forms of elec-
tion of members to serve in parliament, but would defeat all the wise
ends for which those forms were at first adopted, and have since
hitherto invariably prevailed ; and that the petitioner conceives
and is advised that the said return is highly injurious to the pe-
titioner, a palpable breach ofduty in the said bailiff, an open viola-
tion of the act of parliament, a wilful disobedience to the writ, and
a manifest disregard of the invariable law and usage of parliament,
and, therefore complains to the House of the said return so made
by the said bailiff to the sheriff of Middlesex, and by the said sheriff
annexed to the said writ for Middlesex, returned by him to the
clerk of the crown : and therefore praying the House to take the
same into immediate consideration, and to order the said bailiff
forthwith to execute the said indenture of return so tendered to
him, and to make a proper and perfect return, to be annexed to
the said writ for Middlesex, or to give the petitioner such further
or other relief in the premises as to the House shall seem meet."


As soon as this petition was read, Lord Mulgrave desired to know
upon what ground this petition was delivered, under a claim to be
heard before a committee, appointed under the authority of Mr.
Grenville's bill ? As the best means of coming at this, his lordship
moved, " That an act made in the loth of his present majesty, en-
titled, ' An act to regulate the trials of controverted elections, or
returns of members to serve in parliament,' might be read.
Mr. Fox said, he considered himself as entitled to petition the
House, and to have that petition referred to a committee, to be
chosen according to the regulations of Mr. Grenville's bill, for which_
reason he had delivered the petition which had been just read ; and
he meant to move, if there was no objection stated to it, that the


1784.]


WESTMINSTER SCRUTINY. 447


said petition be sent to a committee to be ballotted for on Friday
se'nnight. Lord Mulgrave said, he had moved to have the clause
of the act read, which lie took to be perfectly regular, and therefore
desired it might be read, as he did not conceive the petition came
within the act: and in that case he should make a motion, some-
what different from that proposed to be made by the right honour-
able gentleman.


The clause of the act being read, Lord Mulgrave entered into
a discussion of the true intent and meaning of Mr. Grenville, when
he originally proposed the bill, declaring, that he was in parliament,
and took a considerable part in carrying the bill through against
the powerful enemies it had to contend with at the time. He de-
clared, the sole purview of the bill went to the scats of parties, that
it ordered notice to be sent of the committee, &c. to the petitioners
and sitting members, and could not be construed as having any re-
lation to elections pending. In explanation, and by way of illus-
trating this assertion, he quoted Mr. Grenville's expressions at the
time the bill was under consideration : from whence he declared,
that all election matters and merits not specifically and obviously
included within the purview of Mr. Grenville's bill, remained subject
to the old common law, as it stood before the passing of the sta-
tute, and that consequently the petition upon the table could only
be received and considered by the House as any other petition that
was without the meaning of Mr. Grenville's bill. The petitioner
might be heard by his counsel at the bar, in support of it, and to
such a motion he should have no objection; but at present he should
move, That the said petition does not conic within the descrip-


tion of a petition complaining of an undue election or return of a
member or members to serve in parliament, the proceedings upon
which are regulated by two acts, made in the loth and p ith years
of his present majesty's reign, for regulating the trials of contro-


' verted elections, or returns of members to serve in parliament.'
The master of the rolls (Sir Lloyd Kenyon) seconded the motion.
He said, the act of Mr. Grenville, of which he thought highly,
clearly regarded sitting members only, and provided for the
trial of an election cause between parties. In the present case
there were no parties, there had been no election, there was no re-
turn. It was impossible to say who was chosen, and there was
but one petitioner. If he were to give his opinion upon the
paper that had been delivered to the sheriff by the high bailiff, he
should certainly not pronounce it a return of members, for it stated
not who were, according to the judgment of the returning officer,
duly elected: it was merely a return of another kind, a history of'
the proceedings at the Westminster poll ; an account of the
gestce there, by way of apology made by the high bailiff to the
sheriff, as a justification of himself for not being able to make a com-
plete return. The statute of the 12th of King William had been
a good deal mentioned the preceding day it was, he said, to him
no new business; and he had his doubts, whether that statute had
any reference whatever to the high bailiff: He was inclined to
think it had not, because no such person as the high bailiff, or any
other returning officer, otter than the sheriff, was recognised in it.




448


WESTMINSTER SCRUTINY. [May 25.
That act ordered the sheriff to make his return to the writs, for the
election of members to serve in parliament, to the clerk of th o
crown, and directed, that the sheriff should pay to the said clerk
of the crown the ancient and lawful fees of four shillings, a
more, for every knight of the shire, and two shillings and no more
for every citizen, burgess, or baron of the Cinque Ports, and
should charge the same in his account. Upon this, the master of
the rolls reasoned, to prove, that the sheriff alone was amenable
to the statute, asking what account the high bailiff ever kept at the
crown office, and what fees he ever paid there? He concluded with
declaring that he was clearly of opinion, that the petition of the
right honourable gentleman came not within the meaning of Mr.
Grenville's bill.


Mr. Fox declared, that he would he free to confess, that in
one point he was rather inclined to the opinion of the learned
gentleman, and that was merely with respect to the return;
but that although his petition was not within the letter of the
bill of Mr. Grenville, he was persuaded it came within the
spirit of it, and he hoped the House would have suffered it to
go to a committee, though he saw pretty plainly that it was
not their intention. He took notice of the master of the rolls
having declared that it was no new business: he said, he verily
believed itwas not a new business to any of the learned gentle..
men he saw opposite to him, for he was persuaded they had all
been consulted in the contrivance and fabrication of the curious
device that had been bit upon, which, though it was not to be
deemed so far a return as to permit him to petition the House
upon it, so as to obtain a hearing before a committee upon
their oaths, it was nevertheless to be deemed a return sufficient
to exculpate and save an atrocious delinquent from punish-
ment. From this remark, Mr. Fox proceeded to state the pe-
culiar difficulties that had been thrown in the way of his being
returned for Westminster. He said every other candidate in
the-kingdom had been allowed to try his chance fairly ; but it
appeared to have been determined by administration, that let
Mr. Fox have ever so great a majority, let him even have had
all the votes of all the electors, that unfortunate candidate was
to have been prevented from taking his seat for Westminster.
Various had been the stratagems put in practice to defeat his
election. At first the design seemed to have been, to poll any
votes for his rival, no matter how bad; but that method was
soon abandoned as too glaringly partial to be persisted in ;
then probably the idea of making a double return was paused
upon ; but as in that case a petition would have carried the
matter befo rea committee of the House, under Mr. Grenville's
bill, the right to the seat would have been decided sooner than
it was wished to be, and therefore that plan was likewise aban-
cloned. All along administration had Used their whole'mTight


1784-] WESTMINSTER SCRUTINY. 449
and influence against him, and aggravated the expellee to the
utmost, by way of harrassing the enemy as much as possible :
last of all, the ingenious thought of drawing up for the high
bailiff; such a paper as would preserve him from danger,
though the unfortunate candidate could neither proceed upon
it one way nor the other, so as to obtain that seat which he was
fairly entitled to, was adopted and carried into practice.


Mr. Fox added other arguments to prove how far the per:-
secution was carried ; if lie attempted to avail himself of one
statute, to which, from the complexion of his case, it appeared
to be applicable, lie was immediately told, it had no reference
to that act of parliament ; if he looked to another with a hope
that it would protect him, and obtain that for hint which in
reason and justice lie had a right to claim, he was told, he was
as wide or the mark as ever, and so on : he had no doubt he
should find it ad ityinitunz. With regard to a scrutiny, should
the House be of opinion that it ought to proceed, what hope
could he entertain of getting his seat fbr years? In London the
scrutiny had continued fbr ten days, and about twenty votes
only had been gone through ; in what time, then, was it likely
that the poll for Westminster should be brought to a conclu-
sion? He took notice that a learned friend of his, speaking of
the partiality of the electors towards him, had carried the para-
dox rather too far, and declared, that the votes for him had
been almost universal; he would not venture to say this ; but
though he had not a majority of votes, yet it might fairly be said,
that when a candidate like him, a known object of the enmity
and persecution of government, ventured to stand for Westmin-
ster, to obtain an equality of votes, he must have a majority of
wishes. He observed, that the Latin word votunz admitted of
two translations, both of which applied to his case; for he
might be said to have enjoyed the majority of the voices of
his constituents, or he could not have been honoured with
an equality of their votes. If, however, he had been chosen
by the unanimous votes of all the Westminster electors, and
Lord Flood and Sir Cecil Wray had chosen to demand a
scrutiny, he was persuaded they might have kept him out of
the House the whole session, perhaps the whole parliament.
As the case stood, lie was sincerely of opinion, that his peti-
tion ought, from its coming within the spirit of Mr. Gren-
ville's bill, to go to a committee; there were parties, com-
plete parties to try the cause between ; Lord Hood and he
were one party; Sir Cecil Wray and his electors another :
Sir Cecil Wray ought to petition, and then they would be
Properly before the House. As to their being no sitting
members — What sitting members were there in the case of
a double return ?


VOL. II.
G G




450


*ESTMINSTER SCRUTINY.


Mr. Fox argued upon the necessity for a new law to be.
made, in order to bring cases like his within the jurisdiction
of Mr. Grenville's bill : at present, he said, those who affected
to be most fond of that statute, took most pains to narrow
its scope and confine its effects. This had that day been
fully exemplified in the case of the Bedfordshire petition.
He saw the utility of that bill more and more, and he wished
to extend its jurisdiction to all possible cases of election.
He remarked, that he had somewhere heard something of
the kindness shewn him by the electors of Ross and Kirk-
wall, when his election for Westminster was, as it had been
termed, in its most forlorn state. Upon that head, he could
only say, that lie was as much surprised, when he learnt that
he was to be returned for Kirkwall, as any one gentleman
in the House could be. The honour was altogether un-
expected by him, nor did he hear of it, till two days before
he was chosen; but though he had not looked there for a
resource, yet it would have been the height of imprudence
for him, if he meant to he in parliament, to have trusted
solely to 'Westminster. Of that be was aware all along, and
his opinion was now fully confirmed.


Mr. Fox, before he sat clown, said, it was his duty to
present the petition, and to get it referred to a committee
under Mr. Grensille's bill, if he could; he owed it to his
constituents, and he wished either to have a declaration from.
that House, that the high bailiff's paper was a. return, or an
order for him to make one. He was sure he was legally
chosen, and that by a considerable majority, although it
might be thought he was not. Possibly sonic hundreds who
had. voted for him would say, they voted for Sir Cecil Wray,
and so he was persuaded would others who voted for Sir
Cecil Wray say, they voted for him; but he knew the fact
was not so; mid that as to any real mistake, of that kind,
if there were any, there could be but very few. The seat
he claimed as his right; he was contending for the possession
by virtue of that right, and he wished to have it fairly tried;
if' Sir Cecil Wray should appear to be legally .chosen,
him take his seat; at any rate, Lord Hood ought to have
his seat, and the electors for Wesminster be represented in


let


some sort in parliament. Mr. Fox, in the course of his
speech, asked the master a the rolls, if, when he, the pre-
ceding day, called out audi alteram partenz, he translated
the word alteram, as alluding only to one of the two partie.si
He also mentioned the learned gentleman's having given
public to understand by his vote for Westminster, that io
lived in his stables.


i tile


WESTMINSTER SCRUTINY. 451


The motion was agreed to ; after which the petition was with-
&awn.


June 8.
Mr. Welbore Ellis moved, " That it appearing to this House,


that Thomas Corbett, esquire, bailiff of the liberty of the city of
Westminster, having received a precept from the Sheriff of Mid-
dlesex, for electing two citizens to serve in parliament for the said
city, and having taken and finally closed the poll on the i7th day
of May last, being the day next before the day of the return of
the said writ, he be now directed forthwith to make return of his
precept, and of members chosen in pursuance thereof." The
motion gave rise to a most interesting debate, in the course of
which,


Mr. Fox rose, and spoke in substance as follows:
Mr. Speaker ; Before I enter upon the consideration of


this question, I cannot help expressing my surprise, that those
who sit over against me (the ministry) should have been hi-
therto silent in this debate. Common candour might have
taught them to have urged whatever objections they have to
urge against the motion of my honourable friend before this
time; because in that case I should have had an opportunity
of replying to their arguments; and sure it would have been
fair to allow me the slight favour of being the last speaker
upon such a subject. But, Sir, I have no reason to expect
indulgence, nor do I know that I shall meet with bare justice
in this House. Sir, I say, " that I have no reason to expect
indulgence, nor do I know that I shall meet with bare justice
in this- House."


In consequence of a murmur from the other side, Mr.
Fox paused, and said, — Mr. Speaker, there is a regular mode
of checking any member in this House for using improper
words in a debate, and it is to move, to have the improper
words taken down by the clerk, for the purpose of censuring
the person who had spoken them. If I have said any thing
unfit for this House to hear, or for me to utter—if any
gentleman is offended by any thing that fell from me, and
leas sense enough to point out, and spirit to correct that
offence, he will adopt that parliamentary and gentleman-like
mode of conduct; and that he may have an opportunity of
doing so, I again repeat, " that I have no reason to expect
indulgence, nor do I know that I shall meet with bare justice
in this House."


Sir, I am warranted in the use of these words, by events
arid authorities that leave little to be dou'Qted, and little to


• G (3- 2


[May 25. 1784.]




452 WESTMINSTER SCRUTINY. [June 8. 1784.] WESTMINSTER SCRUTINY. 453
be questioned. The treatment this business has received
within these walls, the extraordinary proceedings which have
sprung from it, the dispositions which have been manifested
in particular classes of men,. all concur to justify the terms
I have adopted, and to establish the truth of what I have
asserted.


If the declaration I have made, had happened not to have
been supported by the occurrences I allude to, the very con-
sideration of Mr. Grenville's bill is of itself sufficient to vin-
dicate what I have said. That bill, Sir, originated in a
belief that this House, in the aggregate, was an unfit tribunal
to decide upon contested elections. It viewed this House, as
every popular assembly should be viewed, as a mass of men
capable or political dislike and personal aversion ; capable of
too much attachment and too much animosity; capable of
being biassed by weak and by wicked motives; liable to be
governed by ministerial influence, by caprice, and by corrup-
tion. Mr. Grenville's bill viewed this House as endowed
with these capacities, and judging it therefore incapable of
determining upon controverted elections with impartiality,
with justice, and with equity, it deprived it of the means of
mischief, and formed a judicature as complete and ample,
perhaps, as human skill can constitute. That I am debarred
the benefits of that celebrated bill, is clear beyond all doubt,
and thrown entirely upon the mercy, or, if you please, upon
the wisdom of this House. Unless, then, men are to suppose
that human nature is totally altered within a few months —
unless we can be so grossly credulous as to imagine that the
present is purged of all the frailties of former parliaments —
unless I am to surrender my understanding, and blind myself
to the extraordinary conduct of this House, in this extraor-
dinary business, for the last fortnight.— I may say, and say
with truth; " that I expect no indulgence, nor do I know
that I shall meet with bare justice in this House."


There are in this House, Sir, many persons to whom I
might, upon every principle of equity, fairness, and reason,
object, as judges, to decide upon my cause, not merely from
their acknowledged enmity to me, to my friends, and to my
politics, but from their particular conduct upon this parti-
cular occasion. To a noble lord (Mulgrave) who spoke early
in this debate, I might rightly object as a judge to try !ne;
who, from the fulness of his prejudice to me, and preddee-_
tion for my opponents, asserts things in direct defiance of
the evidence which has been given at your bar. The noble
lord repeats again, that " tricks" were used at my side in
the election, although he very properly omits the epithe


t
.


wilich preceded that term when he used it in a formerdebate?,


but does it appear in evidence that any tricks were prac-
tised on my part? Not a word. Against him, therefore, who,
in the teeth of the depositions on your table, is prompted,
by his enmity towards me, to maintain what the evidence
(the ground this House is supposed to go upon) absolutely
denies, I might object with infinite propriety as a judge in this
cause.


There is another judge, Sir, to whom I might object with
greater reason, if possible, than to the last. A person evi-
dently interested in increasing the numbers of my adversa-
ries upon the poll, but who has relinquished his right as an
elector of Westminster, that his voting may not disqualify
him from being a judge upon the committee to decide this
contest: a person too, Sir, who, in the late election, scru-
pled not to act as an agent, an avowed, and, indeed, an active
agent to my opponents. [Lord Mahon took this to himself;
but Mr. Fox went on thus :j Is there any interruption, Sir ?
I hope not. I am but stating a known fact; that a person
who is to pronounce a judgment this night in this cause,
avoided to exercise one of the most valuable franchises of a
British citizen, only that he might be a nominee for my ad-
versaries, concluding that his industry upon the committee
would be of more advantage to their cause, than a solitary
vote at the election. This, Sir, I conceive would be a suffi-
cient objection to him as a judge to try me.


A third person there is, whom "I might in reason challenge
upon this occasion. A person of a sober demeanor, who,
with great diligence and exertion in a very respectable and
learned profession, has raised himself to considerable emi-
nence (the master of the rolls); a person who fills one of
the first seats of justice in this kingdom, and who has long
discharged the functions of a judge in an inferior, but very
honourable situation. This person, Sir, has, upon this day,
professed and paraded much upon the impartiality with which
he should discharge his conscience in his judicial capacity as
a member of parliament in my cause. Yet this very person,
insensible to the rank he maintains, or should maintain, in
this country, abandoning the gravity of his character as a
member of the senate, and losing sight of the sanctity of
his station both in this House and out of it, even in the very
act of delivering a judicial sentence, descends to minute and
mean allusions to former politics— conies here stored with
the intrigues of past times, and instead of the venerable lan-
guage of a good judge and a great lawyer, attempts to enter-
tain the House by quoting, or by misquoting, words sup-
posed to have been spoken by me in the heat of former de-
bates, and in the violence of contending parties, when my


Ii G 3




45'4 WrSTMINSTER SCRUTINY. [June 8.
noble friend and I opposed each other. This demure gentle-
man, Sir, this great lawyer, this judge of law and equity,
and constitution, enlightens this subject, instructs and de-
lights his hearers, by reviving this necessary intelligence,
that when I had the honour of firstitting in this House for
Midhurst, I was not Cull twenty-one years of age; and all
this he does far the honourable purpose of sanctifying the
high bailiff of Westminster in defrauding the electors of their
representation in this House, and robbing me of the honour
of asserting and confirming their right by sitting as their
representative. Against him, therefore, Sir, and against men
like him, I might justly object as a judge, or as judges to try
my cause; and it is with perfect truth I once more repeat,
" that I have no reason to expect indulgence, nor do I
know that I shall meet with bare justice. in this House."


Sir, I understand that the learned gentleman I have just
alluded to (I was not in the House during the first part of
his speech), has insinuated that I have no right to be present
during this discussion, and that hearing me is an indulgence.
Against the principle of that assertion, Sir, and against every
syllable of it, I beg leave, in the most express terms; directly
to protest. I maintain that I not only have a right to speak,
but a positive and clear right to vote upon this occasion; and
I assure the House, that nothing but the declaration I have
made in the first stage of this business should prevent me
from doing so. As to myself, if I were the only person to
be aggrieved by this proceeding, if the mischief of it extended
not beyond me, I should rest thoroughly and completely' satis-
fled,


with the great and brilliant display of knowledge and
abilities which have been exhibited by the learned gentleman,
who appeared for me and for my constituents at your bar. If
I alone were interested in the decision of this matter, their
exertions, combined with the acute and ingenious treat-
ment this question has received from many gentlemen on this
side of the House, whose arguments are as learned as they are
evidently unanswerable, would have contented me. But a
sense of duty, superior to all personal advantage, calls on me
to exert myself at this time. Whatever can best encourage
and animate to diligence and to energy, whatever is most
powerful and influencing upon a mind not callous to every
sentiment of gratitude and honour, demand at this moment
the exercise of every function and faculty that I am master of.
This, Sir, is not my cause alone; it is the cause of the English
constitution, the cause of the electors of this kingdom, and it
is in particular the especial cause of the most independent, the
most spirited, the most kind and generous body of men that
ever concurred upon a subject of public policy : it is the cause


IO


I 7 84.] WESTMI NSTER SCRUTINY. 455


of the electors of Westminster : the cause of those who, upon
many trials, have supported me against hosts of enemies ; of
those who, upon a recent occasion, when every art of malice,
of calumny, and corruption—every engine of an illiberal and
shameless system of government— when the most gross and
monstrous fallacy that ever duped and deceived a credulous
country, have been propagated and worked with all imagin-
able subtilty and diligence, for the purpose of rendering me
unpopular throughout the empire — have with a steadiness,
with a sagacity with judgment, becoming men of sense and, • <•
spirit, defeated all the miserable malice of my enemies, vindi-
cated themselves from the charge of caprice, changeableness,
and fluctuation, and, with a generosity that binds me to them
in every tie of affection, supported me through the late contest,
and accomplished a victory against all the arts and powers of
the basest system of oppression that ever destined. the over-
throw of any individual.


If, by speaking in this House (where many perhaps may
think I speak too much), I have acquired any reputation ; if
I have any talents, and that attention to public business has
matured or improved those talents into any capability -or
solid service, the present subject and the present moment, be-
yond any other period of my life, challenge and call them
into action ; when added to the importance of this question
upon the English constitution, combined with the imme-
diate interest I feel personally in the flute of it, I am impelled
by the nobler and more forcible incitement of being engaged
in the cause of those to•whom the devotion of all I have of'
diligence or ability would be but a slight recompence for their
zeal, constancy, firm attachment, and unshaken friendship to
me upon all occasions, and under all circumstances.


There are two leading points of view in which this ques-
tion should be considered : the first is, whether the high
bailiff of "Westminster has had sufficient evidence to warrant
his granting a scrutiny, supposing that he possessed a legal
discretion to grant it : the second, whether any returning
officer can by law- grant a scrutiny, even upon the completest
evidence of its necessity; which scrutiny cannot commence
till after the day on which the writ is returnable.


It is of little conseqmence in which order the question is
taken up ; but first I shall proceed upon evidence.


The great defence of the high bailiff is built upon the
circumstance of Sir Cecil Wray and his agents having fur-
nished him with regular lists of bad votes on my part ; and
to prove that these lists were delivered, they have brought a
witness who knows not a syllable of the truth of the con-
tents of the lists. The witness who drew the affidavits, which


G G 4




45 6WESTMINSTER SCRUTINY. [June 8. 1784.] WESTMINSTER SCRUTINY. 457
affirm those bad votes to have polled for me, upon cross exa-
mination appears equally ignorant of the truth of_the affi-
davits, and therefore the burden of the proof rested upon the
evidence of Affleek, whose testimony nevertheless, after four
hours' examination, is expunged from your books as inad-
missible. Expunged however though it is, I wish the House
to recollect the answers he gave concerning the descriptions
of the bad voters which are imputed to me, and to the stated
number of them. The number is said to be 1 43 ; and the
House will recollect, that although I repeatedly pressed the
witness to name some of them, he could not even name
one. I questioned Aftleek particularly, whether the 143
were persons who did not exist where they pretended to re-
side : his answer was, that some did reside in the streets as
mentioned in the poll books, and that others could not be
found at all. Those who could not be found at all, if any
such there were, might fairly be deemed bad votes; but the
other class of voters involved a question of law ; and I sub-
mit to the House, whether if the evidence of this man, in-
stead of being rejected as incompetent, had actually been ad-
mitted, the whole tenour of it, instead of exculpating, would
not, in the strongest sense, tend to criminate the high bai-
liff: Had he known his duty, or was disposed to discharge it,
this he would have said to such a reporter : You may be,


and most likely arc, interested in deceiving me ; after much
' argument and discussion, I, as the sole judge in this court,


have admitted these to be legal votes, which you (of whom
I know nothing) affirm to be only lodgers or non-residents;


4 my situation is too solemn to be
as


by such informa-
' tion, and therefore I dismiss it as unfit for me to proceed
' upon.'


This should have been the high bailiff's conduct; but his
conduct is the exact reverse of it. He receives this species of
information, and from these sorts of men ; and not only this,
but accepts affidavits. imputing bribery to some persons who
canvassed for me, acknowledging at the same moment that he
had no cognizance of bribery, and never once inquires into
the truth of the charge, nor whether any credit is due to the
deposer, nor even who the deposer is. All this the high
bailiff does in concert with my adversaries, secretly, collu-
sively, without even once giving me, or any one of my agents,
the very slightest idea that any such intercourse had sub-
sisted between him (the judge of this court) and one of the
parties, litigating that upon which he was to exercise his ju-
dicial function.


To have received such information with the least atten-
tion, was in itself criminal enough, but studiously, 'cau-


II


tiously, and deliberately to have concealed it from me, was
base and wicked in the extreme. Had I been apprised of
these machinations, I might have established the falsehood
of every accusation ; and surely, if justice had been the object
of the high bailiff, he would not rest one moment until he-
Communicated to me the burden of these inforntations and
affidavits, especially. if he meant to overturn the whole tide
of precedents, and to innovate upon the practice of all the
returning officers that ever lived in this kingdom, in granting
a scrutiny to commence after the return of the writ. I truth
was his aim, the obvious mode of ascertaining it was to have
given the other party an opportunity of knowing the charges
brought against them, to let them have the chance of contra-
dicting their accusers ; and if we failed in falsifying these in-
formations, the high bailiff would have had this presump-
tion in his favour, that it was only because we could not. But,
Sir, not this, nor any thing like it, did the high bailiff of West-
minster. So far from acting like an impartial judge, he ap-
pears to have been the agent, or rather, the mere tool of my
opponents : and every syllable of these informations upon which
he acted, might have been, for aught he knew, the vilest mass
of falsehood and peijury that ever thwarted the course of
justice. I say then, Sir, if the high bailiff absolutely possessed
a legal discretion in granting a scrutiny, to have granted it
upon this sort of evidence, and under these circumstances,
was, to say no worse of it, an act that cannot be justified upon
any obvious principle of law, reason, common sense, or com-
mon equity.


But what will the candid part of the House think of this
high bailiff; when they consider that. the grounds of his vin-
dication at your bar differ as much as light and darkness
from his vindication in the vestry in Covent Garden, upon
granting the scrutiny ? And here, Sir, I have to lament that
the paper which he read to this House, as his. defence, which
the gentlemen opposite to me (the ministry), for reasons as
honourable perhaps to themselves as to the high bailiff; so
strenuously opposed being laid on the table, is now impossible
to be produced : that paper, Sir, would have enabled me,
from his own words, to have proved to you that the principle
he avowed at your bar, as the rule that governed him in this
business, is exactly and directly the very reverse of the prin-
ciple he pretended to act upon at the time of granting the
scrutiny. Fortunately, however, this fact is established
clear, unquestioned evidence before you. Mr. O'Bryen's
testimony is complete and decisive as to that point — his
words were, ' that the high bailiff in the vestry, upon grant-
' ing the scrutiny, disclaimed the informations delivered to




8.45 8 WESTMINSTER SCRUTINY. s [June
him- by Sir Cecil Wray and his agents; that he replied,
with peevishness and some displeasure to Sir Cecil for hay..
ing mentioned them ; that he declared he believed he had
never read them ; certainly never, with any attention ; that
he threw them aside unnoticed; that they had not the least
operation upon his judgment; and that they did not, in the
very slightest sense, influence his determination in granting
the scrutiny.' These were his words. Atkinson, upon cross


examination, was obliged to acknowledge this ; and Grojan's
want of memory upon it goes, of itself, a great way to establish
the truth, if it required farther corroboration.


Now let the House and the world judge of this high bailiff,
who, upon granting the scrutiny, affects to be insulted at the
supposition of his acting upon this ex. pare information, and
vet rests all his defence at the bar of this House, upon that
very ex parte information which, but a fortnight before, he
disclaimed and despised.


Without adverting to his shameful and scandalous conduct
(which, if he had one spark of feeling, would make him blush
to shew his face, much less to avow the act) in holding this
fraudulent intercourse with my enemies ; cautiously conceal-
ing that any such intercourse subsisted between them ; trea-
cherously betraying the cause of justice, which his situation
bound him to support inviolate ; and basely lending himself to
one party, for the ruin of another;—can any thing better
shew his iniquity, than varying the grounds of his defence ac-
cording to the variation of scene, and the pressure of exi-
gency? 'This continual shifting demonstrates that he has no
honest defence to make ; —put the most favourable construc-
tion possible upon his conduct, and the best of the alterna-
tives marks him a hypocrite at the least. If he has spoken
truth in the vestry, he is an arrant liar before this House ; or,
if he vindicates himself before you upon pure principles, he
has grossly and wickedly deceived me and all who heard the
contempt he expressed in the vestry for that information, upon
which he has expatiated at the bar of this House with such
extraordinary reverence.


So much for the consistency of the high bailiff respecting
his alledged motives in granting a scrutiny.


It is said on the other side of the House, that the poll was
not a scrutiny, and said in express contradiction to the evi-
dence produced at your bar. Never was a poll a scrutiny,
unless the poll in question was such. It is established by
respectable testimony at your bar, that the poll was an eb:


con-lute scrutiny. It is proved that the parish books werere
stantly at the hustings, and each voter's name, profession,
description, collated with the books. It is proved', diat


1 7 84 .] WESTMINSTER SCRUTINY. 459
the names of voters could not always be found in the parish
books (which was often the case, and yet . the votes perfectly
legal), a gentleman in the interest of each side frequently went
to the very street in which the voter said he lived ; that the
vote was suspended until that inquiry was made, and that the
decision was always governed by the report of the inquirers
in such case. Was this, or was it not, a scrutiny ?—But it
is said, that the poll was crammed at one time, and hence an
inference is drawn, that the poll was riot a scrutiny. This is
strange reasoning, surely ; to support this inference, it should
be proved that votes were excepted to, and yet admitted in
the hurry without examination or inquiry. Does this appear
to be the case ? Nothing like it.— With all Mr. Grojan's
disposition to shelter the high bailiff; with all his power of
memory at one time, and his want of it another, does he as-
sert any such thing ? No, Sir, he could not with truth; and
even he could not venture upon this without truth. Did you
ever hear, or did such a thing ever happen, as that a return-
ing officer, of his own accord, should reject any votes not
excepted to by the contending parties? Certainly not. —
Those votes therefore, in whose legality the candidates them-
selves agreed, must be justly presumed by the high bailiff to,
be unexceptionable; and from hence to suppose that the poll
was no scrutiny, is weak. in the extreme. In the early part
of the election it was the natural wish of each candidate to get
upon the head of the poll. Each brought up as many friends
as possible, and this accounts for what they call cramming the
poll. Respecting the high bailiff's difficulty in forming an
opinion as to which of the two had the greater number of
legal votes, had I been lowest upon the poll at the close of
the election, there might have been some little colour for his
affectation of scrutiny. Why? Because upon the days when
the poll was most crammed, when the greatest numbers polled,
and when there was least inquiry and least examination into
their legality, Sir Cecil 'Wray had a very great majority over
me. f began to gain upon my adversary, not when thou-
sands polled of a day, but when only a few hundreds, and less
than a hundred polled on each day — a time when there
was sufficient leisure to scrutinize the votes, and when the
most acute, the most jealous and sharp inquiry took place, as
to the qualification of each voter, that was, perhaps, ever
practised in any court of hustings.


With a view to exculpate this high bailiff his deputy,
Mr. Grojan, related an incident which`I shall notice, and the
exultation of the opposite side of the House, at the time of
that relation, renders that notice the more necessary. It was
this —be asked a man which way the street lay in which he




460
WESTMINSTER SCRUTINY.


[June 8. 1784.] WESTMINSTER SCRUTINY. 461
lived, and the man said it was that way, pointing his hand
towards Drury Lane. " I immediately suspected him, and


afterwards rejected him," says Air, Grojan. Now, Sir,
this story happens to be strictly true, and true to the confu-
sion of those who relate it for the vindication of the high
bailiff: Were my election to depend upon the merits of a
single vote, I do not know that I should prefer any other in-
habitant of this great city before that very man then rejected
by Mr. Grojan; for in all Westminster there is not a better
qualified, a more undoubted legal voter, than that identical
person. And what is the fact, Sir? That this honest, igno-
rant man came to poll with liquor in his head, and (embar-
rassed by the scene, by the shouting, and by the manner per-
haps of the question) made that absurd reply. These events,
Sir, were not unfrequent at that hustings; and when one con-
siders the facility of puzzling such men in all places, when one
considers that Mr. Grojan is not, of all men living, the most
embarrassed in the exercise of his duty, nor exactly the most.
anxious for the comments of by-standers upon his . conduct,
there is little wonder that honest, uninformed men, sur-
rounded by thousands, with half a dozen inspectors plaguing
them with different questions at the same moment, in the
midst of noise and huzzaing, in that state of hilarity, perhaps,
which is too frequent at general elections, should sometimes
give a foolish, unconnected answer to such interrogatories as
generally come from Mr. Grojan.


I understand that a learned gentleman has said, that he
would have closed the poll long before the high bailiff pro-
claimed his intention of doing so. I do not mean to argue the
legality of that position with the learned gentleman; that the
fact was exactly otherwise, is all that is necessary for me to.
maintain. It is in evidence before you, that he did not close
it until the 17th of May, and then closed it, not from defi-
ciency of voters, but for the express purpose of enabling him-
self to make his return by the 18th, the day on which the writ
was returnable. The first, and the only notice I had of his
intention to close the poll, was on the Thursday preceding;
and I do confess, and have always declared, that my object
was to continue the poll during the three intermediate days,
that the high bailiff may be obliged to assign this as his rea-
son, since the act of closing the poll was his own act. In this
I hold myself perfectly : — during these three days
I confess it was my wish to protract the poll; but I solemnly
deny that it was ever prolonged by me a single hour more;
and also deny, that up to the 13th of May, I had any pro-
posal or any offer that I could notice, for closing it.


Attempts have been made to prove, and that is the, last


head of evidence I shall touch upon, that insinuations came
from us at a certain period of the poll, of demanding a scru-
tiny. That some of my friends might have expressed that
intention, is very probable; but give me leave to say, Sir, that
if I had myself formally .demanded it, there is no rule of law
that warrants a conclusion against me, on account of my own
conduct as a party. A thousand motives there may be to jus-
tify me in demanding of the high bailiff; that which it would
be perfectly right in him to refuse. If in any case of litiga-
tion a judge should grant to one of the parties whatever he
wished, how could he ever come to a just decision ? or who
would ever be defeated, whatever may be the badness of his
cause


But, Sir, has it been offered to you in proof, or is there a
man that can say, I ever did for one moment entertain the
idea, much less express it, that a scrutiny could go on after
the day on which the writ was returnable. Sir, I do assure
you, so absurd, so preposterous, so pernicious a thought,
never once possessed me. I had occasion very maturely to
consider this subject at the first Westminster election. Lord
Lincoln demanded a scrutiny, which the high bailiff granted,
and which the noble lord afterwards relinquished. I remem-
ber to have investigated the matter then. I consulted the
greatest dead and living authorities,, the best books, and
the most learned men in my circle; and the result was, that
the granting a scrutiny before the return of the writ was
legal, but no book, no lawyer, no man, before this time,
ever, to my knowledge, maintained that a scrutiny could be
continued, much less begun, after the day on which the writ
was returnable.


Then, say my enemies, why did you expect the high bailiff
to grant you a scrutiny, which you must know could not be
finished before the 18th of May? And at that I see the gen.
tlemen on the opposite bench (the ministry) exult a little.
But, Sir, it is a weak and childish exultation. Do they think,
or, if they deceive themselves, can they believe. the public
will think, that I could have been so gross an ideot as to sup-
pose a scrutiny of this election could be over before the 8th,
with the instance of Vandeput and Trentham staring me in
the face, where an unfinished scrutiny lasted above five
months? Can they imagine I could hope a scrutiny in this
case, where upwards of three thousand voters polled more
than at the contested election of Vandeput and Trentham.
could by any possible means be over before the 18th ? Surely
not. A tolerable knowledge of Mr. Thomas Corbett, the high
bailiff of Westminster, gave me no extravagant hopes of suc-
cess in any scrutiny where he was to be the sole judge ; and




462 WESTMINSTER SCRUTINY. [June 8.
therefore all I ever meant was, that an inquiry might take
place previous to the 18th ; which inquiry might enable us to
form the train and order of the necessary evidence, that we
might the better know how to discover the different species of
bad votes, and class, under their various heads, those which
were doubtful—those which were suspected—and those
which were positively illegal; and so fir to methodise, ar-
range, and simplify the business, before the return, that we
might go on in the committee, under Grenville's bill, with the
greater fimility and expedition, and with less expense; and
this would have been a material point of preparation fins us.


This, Sir, was all I ever meant by a scrutiny before Mr.
Corbett, and all that any man of common fairness and libe-
rality can suppose I meant.


A noble lord over against me (Lord Mulgrave), in his zeal
to exculpate the high bailiff; charges me with having intimi-
dated him, and charges it upon the evidence of Mr. Grojan.
That noble lord, disdaining all regard to consistency, whenever
he thinks he can impute a fault to us, at the same moment
that he asserts the high bailiff was intimidated, pronounces a
flashy panegyric upon the firmness and intrepidity of the very
man he affirms to be thus terrified. But, Sir, the high bailiff
was threatened — and how ? Was it by threats of.assaulting
him ? No. — Was it by holding up the fear of danger to him,
by mobs or riots ? No. — Was it by a menace of taking away
his books, breaking the peace of the hustings, and interrupt-
ing him in the discharge of his duty ? No, no ; but it was by
warning him of the consequences of unjust partialities, false or
corrupt decisions ; it was by threatening him with legal pu-,
nishment, if he did not make the law of the land the rule of
his conduct. Grojan tells you, that he believes these threats
sometimes induced the high bailiff to make decisions in my
favour, contrary to his judgment. -Yet this is the man, whose
firmness and intrepidity the noble lord commends so much,
and whom the Government of this country is straining every
nerve to bear harmless through this unprecedented business.
An officer, whose deputy, as a palliation of greater guilt, de-
fends him, by saying that he committed a palpable breach of his
duty, and only because lie is threatened with legal punishment,
if he acts against law! SiY, for my own part, I believe, there
is as much sincerity in the noble lord's panegyric, as there is
veracity in the deputy bailiff's inference from these threats
all I wish, however, is, that you would properly notice thi9
species of intimidation. - It is an intimidation, Sir, the influ-
ence of which, I hope, will reach every man, every magistrate_
in this country, however splendid his station, however lifted
up above his fellow-creatures in office or dignity—To keep


'1784.] 'WESTMINSTER SCRUTINY.
463


before his eyes the danger of a vicious, or a wanton breach of
the law of the land. Would to God this House were in a
capacity to become an object of those consequences, which the
verdict of a jury would determine to follow a violation of
the laws ! With what content, with what confidence, should I
submit my cause to such a tribunal !


Having now, Mr. Speaker, gone through the various de-
positions that have been made before you ; having from
the evidence shewn, that the alledged grounds of the high
bailiff's first granting this scrutiny, were the direct reverse
of those he declares to this House to have been his motives;
having shewn that he was in habits of clandestine intercourse
with my opponents — having shewn that he was in the con-
stant course of receiving ex pante inlbrmation in an illicit and
shameful secrecy — having shewn that he positively and so-
lemnly denied this series of iniquitous proceeding in the
vestry, which he boldly avows at your bar — having shewn
that the poll was as much a scrutiny as any poll can possibly
be — having explained m y views in the event of my demand-
ing a scrutiny—having described the species of intimidation
used to this man, and confirmed, that so far from exculpating,
it tends 'deeply to criminate him — having shewn this, Sir,
and shewn it by the evidence which you have beard at your
bar, I shall conclude this part of my subject, with submitting
to every man of honour and candour who hears me, whether
lie really thinks that the high bailiff' of Westminster exercised
a sound and, honest discretion in granting a scrutiny, suppos-
ing, for argument sake, that lie actually possessed a legal
power to grant it.


The remainder of what I have to say, shall be directed to
prove that he had no such power, and to lay before you the
fatal effects of such a precedent, as the loss of this question
will afford.


I am not a professional man, and cannot be supposed to
speak with the information of professional gentlemen upon a
legal subject; there are, however, general and fixed principles
of common sense, which serve to guide an unlearned man
upon a subject of this kind. Four different ways occur to
me, by which, in a case of doubt, the law limy be discovered
and ascertained ; first of •11, I should look into the statute
book upon the table ; if upon searching there I find an act
of parliament upon the point in dispute, doubt and conjecture
cease at once, and all is clear and certain ; but if there
should be found no act to regulate the case in question, I
should then in the second place have recourse to practice and
precedent, and inquire what has been done in similar cases on
similar occasions ; in other words, I should try what is the




8.464 WESTMINSTER SCRUTINY. [June
common law. If I find practice and precedent direct me
then every thing is plain and easy ; but if no statute and no
precedent should be found, by which I could .


steer in this
ambiguity, my next obvious resort would be to legal analo-
gies, to cases, which, though not precisely the same in all
points, are yet perfectly similar in principle. If in this de-
partment of research I find any thing to direct me, there
too, all will be smooth, intelligible, and certain : but if I
find no positive statute, nor precedent, nor practice at com-
mon law, and no legal analogy, whereby I might discover
the fad, there is then much difficulty indeed, but not an
insurmountable one : still I should make an effort, and
my last and fourth resort should be to the experience and
understanding of mankind — to those arguments which com-
mon sense suggests — to fhb: conclusions deducible from fair
reasoning, founded upon the immutable principles of policy
and expediency.


Now, Sir, if some of these various modes of defining the
law should happen to favour me upon the present subject,
and that others should unfortunately militate against me,
still I may be right in my position, but not with that tidiness
of conviction, that clearness of certainty that I might wish.
The case, however, is so entirely otherwise, that I do ven-
ture to affirm, and engage to prove to the satisfaction of every
man capable of being satisfied, that not only nothing in any
of these different ways of attaining the fact, does operate in
the slightest degree against me, but that all and each concur
in supporting me, and demonstrating the illegality and vio-
lence of my enemies in the present business. I do therefore
assert, that the high bailiff of Westminster, in granting this
scrutiny, has violated the law of the land, by the combined
force and testimony of these four tests: by the statutes — by
the common law — by the analogies of law — by policy and
expediency. — First as to the statutes :


The act of the loth and t I th of William III. was made
for the avowed purpose of checking the bad conduct of return-


,.


ing officers. The preamble of the bill, and every clause in
it, proves this to have been the object of enacting it. As the
part of it which relates to returns is merely directory, it is
gross and absurd to construe it in any other manner than
that which makes it answer the evident purpose for which it
is enacted. It requires that the writs for any future parlia-
ment shall be returned on or before the day that parliament
is called to meet — that the return shall be made to the clerk
of the crown, which clerk of the crown is authorised to
receive four shillings for every knight, and two shillings fok


1784.]


WESTMINSTER SCRUTINY.
465


every burgess. It imposes a penalty upon the sheriff, if he
does not make his return on or before this day.


Now-observe the construction given by the opposite side of
the House to this plain intelligible statute. It is true, say
they, this act is binding upon a sheriff; but not at all upon
a mayor or bailiff: 'Why? Because a mayor or bailiff are
not mentioned. True, they are not mentioned, and probably
the action I spoke of some time ago, might not lie against
the high bailiff; not that he has not openly transgressed the
spirit of the law, but because the penal part of every statute
is to be construed according to the strict letter of the act;
but I submit to the House, whether they ever heard so low,
so vile, so dirty a quibble—whether they ever heard so base
a perversion of common sense, as to suppose the legislature
of this country, to have been such a set of ideots, such a herd
of miserable beings, as that in an act, made for the avowed
and declared purpose of correcting and punishing the mis-
conduct of returning officers, they should have provided
against the partialities, corruption, and roguery of sheriffs;
and have left the nation at the mere mercy of mayors and
bailiff without restraint, redress, or punishment. This is the
construction put upon this act by his majesty's ministers, the
patrons of this high bailiff; although they see those express .
words in the body of the act — " That the clerk of the crown
shall receive at the time of these returns (which returns must.
be made on or before the day of the meeting of such new
parliament) four shillings for every knight, and two shillings
for every burgess." Why mention the burgess, if that act
is not meant to compel the return of the writ, under which
he is chosen? Was there ever such an outrage upon com-
mon sense, as to maintain, although they sec the fee stated
for the burgess to pay ; though they see the return required
proceeding from the sheriff's precept, to the mayor or bai-
liff; that the mayor or bailiff is not obliged to make a return
within the time prescribed by the same act, that is, on or
before the day that the new parliament shall be called to
meet?


But there is another point which defines the meaning of
the legislature to a certainty, and it is the exception in favour
of new writs upon vacancies. In that case, there is an obli-
gation that the return be made within fourteen days after
time election upon that vacancy. Is it consistent with reason,
or rather is it not making downright nonsense of this act, to
suppose that it should compel a return within a certain time
in cases of vacancy; but that upon a general election, all
should lay at the mere will and pleasure of the returning
Officers ? Will the gentlemen urge the same contemptible


von. II.
If tt,




466 WESTMINSTER SCRUTINY. [June 8.
reasoning here, and assert that the compulsion in this case
only respects the returns of knights of the shire? What ! that
an act should be made to prevent the collusion and knavery
of returning officers, yet that it extends only to the preclusion
of frauds in returning about one hundred, because they are
knights of the shire, and leaves the remaining four hundred
at the discretion of every mayor or bailiff? Sheriffs are in
general of a much superior rank and character to the other
returning officers, yet the wittal caution the honourable in-
terpreters of this act impute to the English legislature is, that
they guarded against abuses from that class of returning offi-
cers, whose fortune and sphere of life presumed most for their
integrity ; and made no provision whatever for the possible
misconduct of that very description of returning officers,
whose situation gave the least pledge or security for honest
and uncorrupt conduct.


If I am not mistaken, this species of reasoning carries
with it its own refutation.


A noble lord over against me (Lord Mulgrave) has ad-
vanced a singular kind of argument indeed, touching the
intention of this act of King William. - He has read to you
from the journals an instruction to the committee appointed
to bring it in, which instruction suggests to them the intro-
duction of a clause to secure the returns for cities and bo-
roughs within the specified time, and in a style of inference
peculiar to himself, lie concludes, that as the express words
do not appear in the statute, the legislature never meant to
include the returning officers of cities and boroughs.


Now I will take upon me to say, that every other man in
this country, (that noble lord and those who concur with
him in opposition to my honourable friend's motion ex-
cepted) capable of understanding the sense of an act of par-
liament, will draw the direct reverse of his conclusion from
the non-insertion of that clause. The sole view of this sta-
tute was to correct the abuses of returning officers. The
instruction from the House to the committee proves, that
the disease extended to mayors and bailiffs. The omission
of that clause therefore clearl y demonstrates, that the framers
of the act thought the suggestion fully comprehende d m
the act as it stands, and that it would be mere tautology
and needless repetition to be more explicit. What a mi-
serable legislature must that be, which in the act of ap-
plying a remedy to an acknowledged evil, creates ten times
a greater than that which it endeavours to cure. Thos
made this law, were, in my opinion, good politicians, who, whot,not
they were evidently not good prophets — for they dial
foresee that an hour would come, when men should rise


15


1784,i1 WESTMINSTER SCRUTINY. 467
and put such a construction upon their labours, as marked
them the most despicable set of drivellers that ever insulted
society under the appellation of law-makers. In a word,
Sir, I contend that the statute of King William is decisively
and compleatly with us.


The 2 3d of Henry the VI. is likewise with us, and does
afford me a legal remedy against the high bailiff, of which
I shall most certainly avail myself. That act authorises the
sheriff to issue his precepts to the returning officers of cities
and boroughs. It requires that they shall make a return to
the sheriff,' and.gives the person chosen, and not returned,
an action, which must be brought within three months after
the meeting of parliament. From this it is evident, that
the return of the writ, and of the precept proceeding from
the writ, must be at one and the same time, vi2. by the meet-
ing of the parliament. For otherwise, observe what rank
nonsense this statute would be. This misconduct of return-
ing officers made it necessary to give a power of legal pu-
nishment to the party chosen and not returned. That power
is here given; but if we can suppose that the act does not
compel the return to be positively made by the meeting
of parliament, the penalty is all a farce: for who will make
a return that will subject him to a civil action, if it be in
his power to avoid it? Whether the return be true or false,
therefore, it is as clear as day-light, that sonic return must
be made by the meeting of parliament. For it is insulting
common sense, to say


eeting
the man who incurs a legal pe-


nalty, shall have a legal power of evading it. That is to
say, that a returning officer may, of his own authority, pro-
long his return until the three months pass away, within
which time alone the action can commence for the punish-
ment of this gross abuse.


I have therefore, Sir, no difficulty in saying, and I ain con-
fident every fair man agrees in the truth of it, that these two
acts, in their letter, as well as their spirit, demonstrate, that
the high bailiff of Westminster, in granting this scrutiny, has
positively broken the statute of the land.


The second point to which I shall advert in the arrange-
ment of this argument is the point of practice, or what the
coinmon law is upon this occasion; and the best way to shew
that the high bailiff of Westminster's return is against both the
one and the other, is to observe this fact—that in all the re-
cords of parliament—in all the annals of election, and in the
history of this country, a single precedent cannot be found to
justify this extraordinary return. The main and evident drift
of it was to deprive me of the benefit of Mr. Grenville's bill;
and to accomplish this end, do but observe how many obvious


xx 2




468 WESTMINSTER SCRUTINY. [June 8.
modes of return he passed by. Had the bailiff done his duty,
and returned Lord Hood and me, Sir. Cecil Wray would not
have been injured, for he would instantly petition, and the
merits of the election would be tried by a committee upon their
oaths. Had the bailiff; doubting, as he pretends, the legality
of my majority, returned, as he undoubtedly might have done,
Lord Hood and Sir Cecil Wray, then I should have petitioned,
and one of Mr. Grenville's committees would have redressed
me. Had he returned Lord Hood alone, still it was cogniza-
ble by Grenville's bill. A petition against an undue return
would have been presented, and this House infallibly prevent-
ed all interference in the matter, except in appointing the
committee. Or if he had returned the three candidates, the
double return entitled it to a priority of hearing (upon that
great and fundamental maxim, that the first object was to have
the House complete), and a committee under Grenville's bill
would instantly have tried the merits of the return, and res.-
cued the case from the prejudices and party influence of the
House of Commons. At all events, my sitting here for Kirk-
wall rendered an immediate discussion and decision upon the
business indispensable, as petitions complaining of pluralities
of election are always heard in order, next to double returns :
thus you see with what dexterity this has been managed.


This curious return had two views; first, to exclude me
from sitting for Westminster; secondly, to deprive me of the
advantage of Mr. Grenville's bill. And, Sir, does any man
think this return was the fabrication of Mr. Thomas Corbett?
The party spirit and personal rancour, so visible in his defence
before this House, confirm that lie has all the disposition, if
not all the ability, in the world to do me every mischief; yet I
cannot be persuaded, when I consider who they are that take
the lead in his vindication before this House, and when I ob-


. serve how very fiunilar they appear to be with this historical
return, (as thy noble friend has well called it,) that so peculiar,
So ingenious, and so original a fragment as this, could ever
have been his sole production. In a word, Sir, this cursed
historical return, this return unmatched, and unprecedented
in the history of parliament, is the only species of return that
could have robbed me and the independent electors of West-
minster of a fair hearing before that admirable judicature in-
stituted by Mr. Grenville's bill.


4 learned gentleman who appears at your bar for the high
bailiff; admits that no instance of this kind ever happened be-
fore; and to induce the House to support his client, he says,
it will never happen again. How he comes to know that aline of conduct so convenient to a minister, so well suited to
those who have the power to oppress, and a disposition o


1784.] WESTMINSTER SCRUTINY. 469
exert every power against those they dislike, the learned gen-
tleman himself best knows; but surely, after such an ad-
mission, to pray the sanction of this House for an act al-
lowedly unprecedented, is somewhat singular. The learned gen-
tleman's prophecy is surprising, it is true ; but the argument
drawn from that prophecy is still more surprising. Grant the
scrutiny, says he, in this case; but you certainly never will do
the like again. Perpetrate the most gross and glaring injus-
tice deliberately, for you will never commit a similar outrage
hereafter. A good understanding, however, seems to prevail.
between those within and those outside of the bar ; and the
intimation of a learned gentleman over against me, of an inten-
tion to bring in a bill to regulate this matter in future, does,
in a greatmeasu re, account for the prediction of the high bailiff's
counsel, that this iniquitous precedent will be no example for
future imitation. Now, Sir, I take the first opportunity ofdecl ar-
Mg, that a bill declaring the law, after a decision directly contrary
to law, shall be opposed by pie with all the faculties and force
I am master of. This is no new principle with me. I have
ever set myself against the affectation of applying a remedy upon
erroneous decisions subversive of law in supreme courts of ju-
dicature. In the case of the determination concerning gene-
ral bonds of resignation of church-livings in the House of
Lords last year, a bill past there, and was sent afterwards to
this House, the purport of which was, to declare the law in
that case, after a determination, which reversed the uniform
current of decisions in Westminster Hall for a series of ages."
Such a bill would have been most fatal in its example, because
it would have taken away the only check, restraint, and con-
trol, upon courts of dcrnier appeal. R would take away the
general public inconvenience arising from the false determina-
tions of superior courts. I opposed that bill, Sir, and opposed
it with success, for this House rejected it. I shall oppose the
bill suggested by the learned gentleman upon the same prin-
ciple, and every other bill of the same tendency. For sure
there cannot be a more barefaced violence of decency and jus-
tice—a grosser mockery of the common sense of mankind,
than to authorize a scrutiny, in direct opposition to the whole
tide of precedents, and exactly subversive of positive law ; be-
cause you intend to bring in a bill to prevent the repetition, in
future time, of so scandalous and shocking a proceeding.


An incident occurs to me, which will be proper to mention.
Much discussion formerly took place upon this subject of re-
gulating scrutinies, and especially at the time of the Oxford-
shire election ; (concerning which election I shall presently
trouble the House with a few observations.) Great pains and


Case of Ffytche and the Bishop of London.
H II 3




470WESTMINSTER SCRUTINY. [June fL 1784.3


WESTMINSTER SCRUTINY. 47


labour were employed then, with a view to frame an act of
parliament upon the subject; and a great man, whose name I
mention only in the purest respect and reverence for his cha-
racter, (Lord Mansfield,) took an active part, and gave the
whole attention of his extensive and shining talents to the bu-
siness. Yet, after the most deliberate and mature considera-
tion of the subject; even he abandoned it, in a despair of being
able to accomplish any system of management, from which
many evils and various disadvantages, impossible to be reme-
died, might not flow. All attempts to regulate scrutinies by
act of parliament were then consequently given up. The learn-
ed gentleman (Mr. Hardinge) will excuse me, if I cannot
easily believe that he will effect that, which Lord Mansfield
relinquished as impracticable; and even this consideration
would be an additional motive with me in not hastily assent-
ing to a bill, of the complexion suggested by him to the House
upon the present subject.


I have said, that this business had no precedent in the annals
of parliament. The gentlemen on the other side (the ministry)
do not attempt, because they dare not, to shew that this high
bailiff is justified by any. The only cases they venture to
touch upon are, the cases. of Oxford and Westminster ; and
yet these two cases are fundamentally and altogether against
them. Could they cite any instances more apposite, undoubt-
edly they would never have alluded to those, which, under a
hope of giving some colour to the matter in question, do ab-
solutely, positively, and substantially make against them. If
out of the mass of precedents I were to choose one, to prove
the grossness of this proceeding, I think it would be the very
case of Oxfordshire. The candidates who, at that election, were
lowest on the poll, demanded a scrutiny, and the sheriff grant-
ed it. Every one knows that the sheriff carried his partiali-
ties for the losing candidates, who demanded the scrutiny, to
the greatest lengths ; yet, partial as he was, and although his
friends were diminishing their opponent's majority daily by
the scrutiny, he gave them notice that his duty bound him to
stop the scrutiny, for the purpose of making his return on the
day the writ was returnable : he accordingly stopped it, and
made his return. If this sheriff, interested as he was for those
who were gaining by the scrutiny, conceived it possible for
him to be sanctioned by any law or precedent in making a
special return, and going on with the scrutiny, would he not
have done so? Undoubtedly he would; and the kind of re-
turn he made, proves that he would, if he thought he might.
Unwilling that those who were obnoxious to him should sit in
the House, he returns all the four candidates ; and this he •
does as the last and greatest act of friendship he could


confer on his friends, previous to the extinction of his autho-
rity, viz. the return of the writ. I do not say that in making
this double return the sheriff did right: but right or wrong,
it proves this—that all the service he could render his friends
he did. Does any one doubt that the two candidates, thus
aided by the sheriff; and in the act of growing daily upon their
adversaries by the scrutiny, would not perfer the partial, the
kind and favouring tribunal of their determined friend the
sheriff, to the House of Commons, had they supposed that any
thing could justify him in continuing the scrutiny after the
meeting of parliament?—But so frightful an idea was never
cherished; and they held themselves bound for ever in grati-
tude to the sheriff for having included them in his return.
An honourable gentleman, whom I see in his place, but who I
believe neither sees nor hears me at this moment (Mr. Jenkin-
son), knows full well that all I am stating relative to the
Oxfordshire election is strictly true. He cannot easily have
forgotten the part he took in that memorable transaction. He
engaged eagerly in the contest, and embarked in that interest,
which I should certainly have embraced, had I been of an age
to form an opinion, and to act upon it. That honourable
gentleman can attest the veracity of this recital ; but it were
vain flattery, I fear, to hope that he will rise up to-night and
vindicate, by his voice and his vote, the principles of the cause
he then supported, and which gained his friends the election.


He must remember that a long discussion took place in this
House, touching the right of a certain class of copyhold te-
nants, who voted for those who had the majority upon the
poll; and that the disqualification of this description of voters
seated those in the House who were lowest upon the poll
and the scrutiny. And here I must observe, what a strong
and unanswerable confirmation of the point I am endeavour-
ing to establish, springs from a careful review of the Oxford-
shire case. The cause of the unsuccessful candidates was
pleaded at the bar by one of the greatest characters of that
time, and one of the greatest ornaments of this, I mean Lord
Camden, quern g•atia Ilonoris nontino. A question was agi-
tated to ascertain a peculiar qualification, which bore the
most inauspicious, and, as it afterwards, proved, the most
fatal aspect towards his clients. If any objection to determine
the point upon that ground could possibly be supported, does
any one doubt that his ingenuity and penetration would not
have discovered it? Does any one doubt that he would have
enforced that objection with all that perspicuity and fervour
of eloquence, which so much characterize that noble lord ?
But the idea of a sheriff withholding a return, on account of
a scrutiny, never once occurred to him, nor to those who


II Ii 4




472. WESTMINSTER SCRUTINY. [June 8.
managed it within the bar: nor do I believe, until this time,
(to answer the laudable purpose of the present moment) did
it ever enter into the head of any man as legal or practicable.


goesSo much for the Oxfordshire case, which, I maintain,
with us in all its points and principles.


With respect to the Westminster case in 1749, a learned
gentleman (Mr. Hardinge), who has spoken with much liven-
',"


ness, but without one word of legal argument, tells you, the
scrutiny then and the scrutiny now arc cases exactly in pOint.,
In contradiction to that, I affirm, that not the least simi-
litude subsists between them.' In this case, the writ is return_
able upon the 18th day of May ; in that, no precise time is
mentioned for the return: and here consists the whole dif-
ference. Every one knows that the election of Trentham
and Vandeput was upon a vacancy, in consequence of Lord
Trentham's accepting a seat at the board of admiralty.
Upon a general election, the king calls a parliament for the
dispatch of great and urgent affairs, and he calls it to meet
upon a particular day : now, Sir, observe, if there be no com-
pulsion upon returning officers to make their returns by that
express time, what is to become of the great and urgent af-
filirs for the dispatch of which his majesty calls a parliament?


Can you reconcile for one moment, that the nation should
be bound by laws, and burthcned with taxes to which they
did not consent; that the king should have no parliament,
and the people no representatives, to dispatch the weighty
and urgent affairs they arc called to consider by a particular
day, only because it is the whim, or fancy, or wickedness, of
a returning officer, at his leisure, to keep them employed in
the long laborious business of a scrutiny? But, during the
existence of parliament, when a writ issues upon a vacancy,
no particular day is named for its return. A poll or a scru-
tiny (which means only a continuation of the poll in another
form) may be carried on, because it does not in the least in-
fringe upon the exigency of the writ; because no particular
time is mentioned for the return, and because his majesty
does not call upon that individual representative to come upon
a precise day, for the dispatch of great and urgent affairs
that affect his people, as upon a general election. This,
therefore, constitutes the distinction, and it is a Wide and a
material distinction—the grievance, from the absence of one
representative is slight, and the law, in that case, admits a
scrutiny; but in the other case, to withhold the return beyond
the time appointed, is infringing the exigency, and violating
the terms on which it was issued; which are, that the pa rliament
must meet upon that express clay, for that express purpose.


Why there should be this distinction—why the compulsion
II


1784.] WESTMINSTER SCRUTINY. 473


of a return, by a specified period, should not exist, as well in
cases of vacancy, as of general election, is not now the point
in dispute. If it be, as I think it is, a defect, it only serves
to prove, th..t in the best works of human wisdom there are
flaws and imperfections. Our aim is to find out what is the
law, not why it is the law; and, from the whole, it is clear,
that the high bailiff of Westminster, in over-stepping this
distinction, and granting a scrutiny to commence after the
clay of the .


general return, has broken every statute that ap-
pears upon this subject in your books, and gone in the face of
every precedent that can be found in your journals.—[Mr.
Fox said a few words upon the Carnarvon case, and upon
something that fell from the master of the rolls upon it.
The master of the rolls made a short observation.]


The third ground, resumes Mr. Fox, upon which I shall
take up this subject, is upon that of the analogies of law; and
upon this I shall detain the House only with a few words; not
only because my ignorance of that profession disqualifies me
from treating the point fully, but because all that can be said
has been urged, with the greatest force and effect possible, by
the learned gentlemen who appeared at your bar in my behalf;
the proof of which is, that not a position they have advanced
upon the legal analogies, has been controverted by the learned
gentlemen who pleaded for the high bailiff without the bar, or
those venerable judges and crown lawyers, who have at-
tempted to defend him within the bar. Little, therefore, re-
mains for me to say; but, little as I affect to have of infor-
mation upon this part of the subject, I have enough to know,
that wherever the gentlemen on the other side have attempted
to assimilate this case with legal 'analogies, they have com-
pletely and entirely failed. They have endeavoured to esta-
blish, that an officer may go on to execute the object for which
the writ was issued from the courts in Westminster Hall,
even after the day on which the writ is returnable. Yes, Sir,
he may go on; but how? Upon the authority of the expired
writ?—No, by no means. He goes on by a new power
given him by that court whence the writ originally issues,
to complete that which the premature expiration of hip


first
Commission prevented his accomplishing. In a word, the
court has the power of rendering effectual its own process,
and therefore grants a writ of venditioni exponas, where the
sheriff has not been able to sell the goods levied under the
first writ ; and many other writs of different titles, for the
purpose of completing that process the court has begun.
But has any man said, that without a fresh authority, any
sheriff, or any officer of any court of law, can proceed a sin-
gle step under the old writ, one single hour after the day




474 WESTMINSTER SCRUTINY. [June 8.
named for its return? I say no, Sir. There is not one man,
however ignorant in other things, who does not know that all
the authorities of all writs are defunct and extinct on the day
named for their return. It is admitted, that the court can
grant a new power to compleat its own process. Now, Sir,
to shew the gentlemen on the other side that they have not a
shred of analogy to support them, I will suppose, for a mo-
ment, that the writ under which the high bailiff carried on
'this election, had been issued from this court—what writ, or
what legal authority can you give him to finish that'which,
he says, is still depending? None, I say, Sir. A court of law
can effectuate its own process, by giving its officer a new
power on the demise of the old : but did you ever hear of one
court granting an authority to accomplish the purpose of a
writ issued from another? Never. Such a thin ,?. was never
.,heard of. And how stands the fact here; thatthing court of
chancery issues the writ, and the House of Commons (ano-
ther court) is to send forth a fresh writ, to finish that which
has not been finished under the king's writ issuing from
chancery, the duration of which ceased on the 18th of
May. Sec the infinite absurdity into which these poor at-
tempts to make out analogies involve the supporters of the
high bailiff. Will they say, though this House cannot issue
a supplemental power, the usual officer for making out par-
liamentary writs can ? Try it, Sir, and you will puzzle all
the writ-framers belonging to the House: I will venture to
say, that all the skill of the crown office, and all the skill of
the court of chancery combined, will be at a loss in what
shape or mode to frame an instrument so exotic and hideous.
I will not push this point farther, satisfied that no candid
man can have a second opinion upon the subject; and shall
conclude this part of my speech with affirming, .that the sta-
tutes, the precedents, and analogies of law, assert and esta,
Nish the truth of my honourable friend's motion; and that,
by those three tests, I am clearly entitled to the judgment
of this House against the conduct of the high bailiff of
Westminster.


The fourth and last ground of consideration, is upon that
of expediency, upon sound sense, and general policy ; and
here I shall have as little trouble as upon the three former
grounds to establish every position, and to shew the House
the iniquity of this proceeding. The conduct of this bailiff
not only violates the spirit and letter of every law, but abso-
lutely, m so far, subverts the. main principles of the British
constitution. When the king calls a new parliament, the
fair presumption is, that the great and urgent affairs,', for
which he calls them together, demand their immediate de-


I


WEST?dINSTER SCRUTINY. 475
liberation. it is clear that our ancestors were extremely cau-
tious that nothing should prevent or obstruct their meeting;
and, lest returning officers should be instrumental to this ob-
struction, all the statutes, and all the precedents that bear
upon this matter confirm their jealousy, and prove their dili-
gence to guard against abuses. The misconduct of returning
officers, the facility of the evil, and the dangerous consequences


e,resultina from it, were the evident and avowed cause of mak-
ing those laws which I have mentioned, and which were avow-
edly intended to restrain them. Let but the conduct of the
high bailiff of Westminster be sanctified this night by this
House, and I challenge the ingenuity of mankind to shew a
more effectual mode of putting the nation into the hands of
returning officers;


What security can any man have, that a parliament shall
meet when the king calls it, if you establish this precedent?
An honourable friend of mine, who has this day spoken for
the first time, (Sir James Erskine,) and who has exhibited a
power of fancy, and force of argument, that give a high pro.
mise of his making a splendid figure in this House, has said,
it was possible the House of Commons -of England might,
upon the assembling of a new parliament, be confined to the
members from Scotland, where all scrutinies precede elections,
and where the positiveness of the law prevents the commission
of these knaveries. Now, although the brilliant fancy of my
honourable friend might, perhaps, have stretched thepossibi-
lity a little too far, is there a man who will engage, that this
case once sanctified, the example will not be f011owed to the
most calamitous excess ? The exact number of 5 1 3 English
members might not indeed be absent upon the meeting of a
new parliament ; but will any man say why zo, why 6o, why
moo, nay, why zoo, might not, by the ignorance, by the ca-
price, by the folly, by the stupidity, or (what is more analo-
gous to the case in question) by the baseness or treachery of a
returning officer, remain unreturned ? Here I must notice
the low, the little, the miserable allusions which are so fre-
quently made, by those over against me, to the place that
did me the honour of sending me to parliament ; but it is
a poor and a pitiful kind of triumph. Much as they may
affect to exult, nothing can be clearer than their disappoint-
ment upon the occasion, and the petition lately presented
against my seat for Kirkwall, proves their mortification to a
certainty. And indeed it appears from the conduct of go-
vernment, that Scotland is the only place that could return
me, as the same shameless persecution would, no doubt, have
followed me in any other place in England; fortunately there
was one_ part of the kingdom where their oppression could




476 WESTMINSTER SCRUTINY. [June 8.
not prosper, and from which their violence and injustice could
not exclude me.


Sir, I do really believe that the supporters of this extraor-
dinary business look but a short way, and do not at all calcu-
late or count upon its probable effects. If there had not been
an act of parliament expressly to regulate scrutinies in the
city of London, who can say that, at this moment, when
laws are to be made as serious and interesting as any that ever
passed in this country; when 'great and weighty impositions
must be laid upon the subjects ; when new and important re-
gulations are to be entered upon, concerning the commerce,
the credit, and revenues of the nation—who can say that at
this time the capital of the country, so deeply and supremely
interested in all these objects, might not be deprived of repre-
sentation as well as the city of Westminster ?—But, Sir, I
beg pardon—I am doing injustice. The sheriffs of London
are too well acquainted with their duty, and too zealous for
the honourable discharge of it, to have been guilty of so
gross an outrage upon the laws of the land, or lent themselves
to be the vile and sordid instruments of so base a business.


But the character of an officer is a weak security against
the abuse of an office. Under men less informed, and less
tenacious of their official reputation, who can say (if an .ex-
press act had not rendered it impossible) that the patrons of
Sir Cecil Wray, who are also the patrons of Mr. Atkinson,
might not practise the same stratagem in the city of London,
and, by that manoeuvre, prevent the wishes and the senti-
ments of the capital from being declared in this House,
through the constitutional organ of their representatives?—
They, Sir, I affirm, arc weak and foolish men, rash and
giddy politicians, who, by supporting a measure of this kind,
become parties in a precedent, capable of producing conse-
quences which strike at the source and root of all legislation.
For it is the fundamental maxim of our constitution, that
the consent of the people by their representatives is essential
and indispensable to those laws that are to govern them.


Upon this, however, a curious sort of . reasoning is adopted,
and a noble lord (Mulgrave) sees no evil in a defect of repre-
sentatives for 'Westminster, as it is virtually represented by
those who sit here for other places. In the principle that
every member is bound to the common interest of all, I cer-
tainly do agree, but I beg leave to set myself wholly against
the general argument of virtual representation. We have too
much of virtual, and too little of real representation in this
House; and to the present hour I never heard, that the most
determined enemy to a parliamentary reform ever urged, that
the virtual representation of the country was so complete a


1784.]


WESTMINSTER SCRUTINY.
477


substitute fer real representation, as to deem it wise and salu-
tary upon slight occasions, or upon any occasion to lessen that
which is already much too little. The whole tide of reason-
ing has, on the contrary, run in the other channel, and the
great argument for a parliamentary reform, has been founded
upon this very defect of real representation, which the noble
lord over against me is so zealous to diminish. As the ho-
nourable gentleman near him, however, (Mr. Pitt,) is the
professed friend of that reform in the representation of the
people of the country, which I have in common with him so
long laboured in vain to accomplish ; I shall hope to see him
stating this very case of Westminster, to induce the House
to adopt the motion which will be made upon that subject, by
my honourable friend (Mr. Sawbridge) in a few days. Of
the prosperity of that motion, I now entertain real confidence;
the boasted power in this House of the right honourable gen-
tleman insures success to any measure he abets. No question
therefore can be entertained of attaining it, if the honourable
gentleman is serious upon the subject; for surely the people
of England can never be persuaded, that the majority which
supported the minister in vindicating a direct violation of the
law of the land, in the person of Mr. Corbett, could have
failed him in endeavouring to effect an object so long looked
for, so loudly called for, and so essentially necessary to the
security of the constitution and the good of the nation, as a
reform in the palpably defective representation of the people
in this House.


The same noble lord attempts to strengthen his cause with
a species of argument still more extraordinary, if possible,
than the former, although of nearly the same nature. He
tells you that representing Westminster has been a mere naval
honour ; and after stating the choice of Lord Rodney when
on foreign service, leads you to this inference, that the elec-
tors of Westminster are wholly unsolicitous whether they are
represented or not. This is rating the electors of Westmin-
ster at a low estimate indeed; but I, Sir, who know them bet-
ter than the noble lord, deny that they are so insensible to the
blessings of the British constitution as his argument pretends.
The electors of Westminster have rescued themselves from
this imputation, Sir, they are seriously anxious to be re-
presented, and they tell you so. But I remember, when
absence was deemed a disqualification for naval officers upon
a 'Westminster election. I remember when Lord Hood was
in the zenith of his fame, that a person now in my eye (Lord
Mahon) urged his absence to the electors, as a ground of re-


jection, and advised them to prefer Sir Cecil Wray, who was
present and able to represent them, to Lord Hood who was




47 3 WESTMINSTER SCRUTINY. [June 8.
absent and unable. This, though not my argument (whose
opinion is uniformly, that all electors of all places should elect
the men of their choice) was the exact argument of the present
supporters of Lord Flood, in favour of that of Sir Cecil Wray,
who then opposed him, but who now (in his enmity to any
junction after past opposition, in his utter abhorrence of all
coalitions) is linked with that very Lord Hood in ties of
friendship and good faith, which he certainly never will
violate.


Efforts, Sir, have been made to explain the act of George IL
tci the exculpation of this high bailiff; and his supporters
affect to justify him upon his declared difficulty in making up
his conscience. : .Why, Sir, the very act they attempt to
shield him under, is his strongest condemnation. The oath
imposed in that act, only binds him to decide to the best of
his judgment by a limited time. Lives there one man who
shall say, this man would have incurred the penalties of per-
jury, if he had returned the majority upon the poll ? Lives
there one man, who thinks the disquietude of his conscience
alone prompted him to make the return he has made, when
they must see a thousand instances every day of decisions of
conscience, in cases a thousand times more ambiguous and
solemn ? I will ask the House, whether this high bailiff has
appeared to them, in the course of this business, so spotless,
so immaculate, so consistent, as to induce them to give him
credit for a delicacy of nerve, and a tenderness of scruple, be-
yond any other man living ? Every person in the exercise of a
judicial function stands precisely in his predicament. What
should become of us, if a judge were for ever to delay justice
until he could make up his conscience to the minutest point of
precise accuracy upon every doubt? There are few cases upon
which a man cannot form some opinion ; all that is required
here is, to form the best opinion he can, and if seven weeks
did not afford the high bailiff time enough to determine, it
is surely hard with those who are obliged to decide almost im-
mediately in the most important interests of humanity. My
honourable friend ∎N ho made this motion, with that weight
and wisdom that accompany all his observations, has adverted
to the case of jurors. Have you then patience at this man's
pretence of conscience, when you reflect that twelve men
must all concur before they go out of court, in a judgment,
which perhaps consigns a fellow-creature to an ignominious
death; the case may be doubtful too, and they must all con-
cur-in a few hours at most.


It is unnecessary to push this point farther. I appeal to the
House. There are feelings which even party prejudices can-
not dispossess us of. We owe to each other a certain candour;


1784.] WESTMINSTER SCRUTINY. 479
and, I am sure, I should be thoroughly satisfied to put this
matter to the private answer of any man who hears me ; if I
were only to ask him, upon his honour as a gentleman,
whether he really believes the return of this high bailiff' is an
act of conscience? And whether he thinks, if I stood in Sir
Cecil Wray's place, and he had my majority, that we should
ever have heard of this man's difficulty in giving judgment;
or ever been insulted with this mockery of his scruples ?


To shew, in another striking point of view, that this scru-
tiny is against the law, let the I-louse reflect, for a moment,
upon its utter inefficacy to enable the high bailiff to form a
judgment ; as that is the pretended cause of it. What means
has he of exploring those things which he now affects to en-
tertain doubts upon ? He can command no witness ; he can
compel no appearance ; he has no legal authority of penetrat-
ing the obscurity of any fact like other judges; he can admi-
nister no oath; he can impart no remedy to the party aggrieved,
by so tedious and vexatious a process; he can award no costs;
he can try no offence that occurs in the execution of this im-
portant duty; he is governed by no precedents: he is bound
by no decisions ; what he affirms to-day, he may 'deny to-mor-
row; lie has, in a word, all the means of doing injustice, and
no one power or competent faculty to do justice. Yet to this
species of tribunal is this House going (in violation of law and
practice) to send me and my cause, on purpose to evade one
which is fully adequate, effective, and vigorous; I mean a
committee under Grenville's bill.


A noble lord expresses his suspicions of the sincerity of my
praises of Grenville's bill, and says, he imagines there is a
snake in the grass :' it is most true, that I have had my doubts
upon the effects of that bill, when it first passed into a law ;
but, Sir, it is exerting the worst tyranny upon the under-
standing of men, if they are to be 'for ever condemned for
having entertained doubts upon a subject purely theoretical.
Extinct is every idea of freedom, and lost is the boasted li-
berty of debate, and the spirit of free-thinking in this country,
if men are to be debarred from profiting by practice, and
changing opinion upon the conviction of experiment. All I
can say, Sir, is, that the many salutary effects of that bill
have long since completely converted me; and I do assure you,
in great sincerity, that no man living reveres and loves it more
than I do. There can be no stronger proof of its superior
excellence, than that the evasion of it is the


• only possible
means by which his majesty's ministers could perpetrate this
gross act of injustice. The most infallible of all tests,- the
test of repeated practice, asserts its virtues ; and MN' attach-
ment to,,it is not a little increased, for that it resembles that




1784•]


'WESTMINSTER SCRUTINY. 481
480 WESTIVILVSTER SChLTTINY. [June 8.
inestimable right, one of the few that Englishmen have yet to
boast —the trial by jury. Oh, that it were possible to mould
this I louse into the size and character of a jury—of twelve
men acting, indeed, upon conscience. and sworn upon oath,
to give a true verdict according to evidence ! How easy should
I feel concerning the issue of this discussion!


In addition to all these arguments, will the House reflect
that this scrutiny is not final in deciding the right of sitting
here? Will they reflect, that after all the waste of time, af-
ter all the expence, all the labour, all the fatigue, which are
indispensable upon it, its termination (whenever it may hap-
pen) is but the commencement of another process, before ajudicature capable and competent to administer justice, with
a new series of expellee, and labour, and fatigue. And who
can tell us when this scrutiny shall conclude ? The granting
it is not more illegal and oppressive, than the duration is un-
certain and indefinite. Who can promise when such a con-
science as Corbett's will be quieted ? And who will venture
to say, that after one, two, three, or ten years investigation,
the high bailiff's conscience may not be as unsatisfied, even
upon the scrutiny, as it appears at this moment, after a seven
weeks poll?


44 But," say the supporters of the high bailiff; 64 this House
-trill take care that there is no vexatious delay in the business,
and will from time to time call upon him for a return, or for
the cause that may prevent his making one." I understand that
argument perfectly well, Sir; and it is of itself sufficient to
shew the grossness of this proceeding. When the bailiff will
be called on to make a return, and when he will obey
that call, can be very easily conceived indeed. If it were
possible for this man, in the course of this scrutiny, to strike
off from my numbers so many as would place Sir Cecil Wray
on the head of the poll, I have not the smallest doubt that all
delays subsequent to such an event would appear just as frivo-
lous, as vexatious and oppressive, to the gentlemen on the op-
posite bench (the ministry) and to the high bailiff's conscience,
as the whole proceeding now appears to me, and to the in-jured electors of Westminster. Upon all the considerations,therefore, that I have mentioned—the inordinate expence;
the inefficacy of the tribunal ; the obvious necessity of after-
wards resorting to a more adequate and competent judicature ;
the certainty that this precedent will be the source of future
oppressions ; the dangerous example of it to other returning
officers, who, under the sanction of this case, can give full
scope to their partialities, their caprices, and corruption s ;
the circumstance of depriving so great and respectable a body
of men of their representation in this House; the recognizing
that dreadful doctrine, that a king may be without a pa'


liament, and the people without representation, at the mere
will and bare discretion of any low, mean, ignorant, base,
and wretched being, who may happen to be a returning offi-
cer; from all these considerations, therefore, I am convinced,
and I hope I have convinced this House, that if no statute
could be found upon the subject, that if the common law werejsilent, and that legal analogies gave no light upon the sub-ect, even upon the grounds of common-sense and expediency,
the law is clear and intelligible. But when all these concur
to define and to decide the law ; when positive statutes, when
practice and precedents, when the analogies of law, and the
arguments of expediency, founded upon the immutable prin-
ciples of wisdom, reason, and sound policy, all combine
and unite to establish and to assert it, can I have any
fear to say that this motion ought to pass, and that the high
bailiff of Westminster, instead of being permitted to pro-
ceed with this scrutiny, should make a return of members for
the city of Westminster ?


Some gentlemen have argued, that this motion does not agree
with the prayer of the petition which was presented by me
with a view of its being referred to a committee— [Here the
minister gave a token across the House, as i


• to deny the fact.]
—Really, Sir, if there is not enough of candour to admit
this assertion without being explained, there seems but little
chance of a fair hearing, or of a fair construction, upon points
much more material. I again declare it was presented for the
purpose I have described. A majority of this House decided,
that the petition was not cognizable by Mr. Grenville's bill ;
and it was upon a suggestion from the other side of the House,
that I presented it the same day to save time; and prayed that
counsel might be heard at the bar in favour of it. The sole
object of that petition was, that this House might order such
a return, as would come under the jurisdiction of a commit-
tee; the motion before you goes precisely to the same point,
and to no other.


To that argument, if it deserves the name of argument,
that we are inconsistent in desiring the high bailiff to make a
return, when we contend that all his authority under that
writ is completely defunct; it is almost unnecessary to reply,
because it evidently defeats itself. In contending that the
high bailiff wasfundus (djicio on the 18th of May, we are for-
tified by law; and, in desiring he would make some return,
we are justified by precedent.


We contend, and contend with truth, that the writ under
which the high bailiff carried on the election, being return.
able on the 18th of May, on that very day deprived the bailiff
of all judicial authority, and divested him of all legal. power


VOL. II. I I




482 WESTMINSTER SCRUTINY. nine 8.


under that writ. To proceed with a scrutiny is a great act of
authority ; to tell us who have in his opinion the majority of
legal votes, is not. That this House should order a returning
officer to commence a scrutiny several days after the positive
day on which his writ was returnable, cannot be paralleled
by a single case in all the history of darliament — that it
should order a returning officer, who tells you he proceeded
to an election, carried on a poll for a sufficient time, and that
he then closed that poll of his own authority, to make a re-
turn, has happened again and again. We do not desire him
to exercise any jurisdiction under that writ now, we only de-
sire lint to acquaint us with the fruits of the jurisdiction which
he has exercised under it. I have done so and so, says the
high bailiff— Tell us what you mean, is all we say. ' I have,
e Oil such a day, proceeded to an election,' says he, have


carried on a poll for forty days ; I have, on the day before
' the return of the writ, closed that poll of my own autho-


rity.' — All this we understand ; in all this you did your
duty ; only tell us who are the candidates chosen upon this long
poll ? We do not mean to say you have at present any autho-
rity to do any thing under that writ ; all we want to know is,
what you have done when you had authority under it? Let
the House reflect upon this fair and reasonable distinction,
and they will see the paltriness of those quibbles, the misery
Of those low subterfuges, which imply that we would bring


a dead marnto life,' and which imply an inconsistency be-
tween the motion and the arguments advanced in support
of it.


What, I beg leave to ask, has appeared to the House ex-
traordinary or uncommon in the election for Westminster,
that justifies this matchless violence? In all the variety of
evidence they have heard at the bar, has there been a proof
of one single bad vote on my side? Not one; but there was
much hearsay that I had bad votes: Sir Cecil Wray, and his
agents told the high bailiff they heard. I had. — Good God,
Sir, am I addressing men of common sense? Did any of
you ever yet hear of an election, wherein the losing canli-
date did not charge bad votes and bad practices upon the for-
tunate candidate ? Peevishness upon miscarriage is perhaps an
error, but it is the habit of human nature; and was the high
bailiff so hacknied in the ways of men, as to be unapprised of
this frailty; or, are the discontents of Sir Cecil Wray, and the
loose accusations of his agents, the extraordinary winchsgthin
the House sees in the Westminster election to justify this pro-
ceeding ? Is the length of the election one of these uncommon
incidents? By no means. The same thing happened at Bris7
tol, where, without doubt, a scrutiny had been granted, if the


ao


1784.] WESTMINSTER SCRUTINY.
483


returning officer thought the law would bear him out in it.
The same thing happened at Lancaster, where a scrutiny was
demanded and refused; and where, when the connections of
one =" of the candidates are considered, no doubt can be enter-
tained, that every stratagem to procrastinate, every scheme
to perplex, every expedient to harass, all that a disposition,
not the mildest when victorious, nor the most patient when
vanquished, all that wealth, all that the wantonness of wealth
could do, would have been exerted ; and where a plan so
admirably calculated for litigation, for vexation, for expense,
for oppression, as a scrutiny, would not have been omitted,
were it found legal or practicable.


Let the House reflect for a moment upon the facility of a
collusion in a case of this sort, to keep a candidate from his
seat, whose right to it is clear, unquestioned, and unquestion-
able. Suppose that not one single bad vote had been given
for Lord Hood in the late election, and that the noble lord
were not (he best knows why) resigned and easy under this.
proceeding ; what could be more hard and cruel than his
situation ? Does not the House see that ministers will be
enabled by this precedent, to exclude an obnoxious c:mdidate
for an indefinite space of time, even though his majority be
the most undoubted possible, and his election the fairest in the
world? It is only for the losing candidate to demand, and for
the returning officer to grant a scrutiny. These are some
of the evils that present themselves upon the recognition of
this practice, as right and legal. For my part, I see no-
thing in the late election for Westminster peculiar and dis-
tinct from many other elections, but this singly, that I was,
one of the candidates. In that light it is already seen by every
cool, dispassionate and sensible man ; and that the whole na-
tion will contemplate, and construe the business of this nigh:
as an act of personal oppression, I am thoroughly convinced;
nor can they think otherwise, when they learn, that in all the
law books of this country, in all your Journals, in all the his-
tories of parliament, in all the annals of elections, in this great
land of elections, where, from time to time, all that power,
all that ingenuity, all that opulence could devise or execute,
has been tried in elections; where, in the vast masses of cases
that have happened, in all the multiplied variety of singular
and curious contests we read and hear of, nothing is found
that assimilates with, or authorises this scrutiny, under these
ci


rcumstances — not even by the worst of men, in the worst
of times.


Mr. Lowther, the nephew of Sir James Lowther, just then created
a'1of Lonsdale.


•II 2


IP




484 WESTMINSTER SCRUTINY. [June
Sir, I will acquit the honourable gentleman over against


.me (Mr. Pitt) of being the author, or of bein g voluntaryb
instrument in this vile affair ; and in that concession, Sir, I
do not give him much —it is but crediting him for a little
common sense indeed, when I suppose that, from.a regard
to that government of which he is the nominal leader, from a
regard to his own character with the world at this time, and
his reputation with posterity, he acts his part in this business
not without concern. That he may be accusable of too ser-
vile a compliance is probable enough ; but of a free agency
in it I believe he is guiltless. Not to him, Sir, but to its
true cause, do I attribute this shameful attack ; to that black,
that obstinate, that stupid spirit, which by strange infatua-
tion pervades, and has pervaded, the councils of this coun-
try, throughout the whole course of this unfortunate and
calamitous reign — to that weak, that fatal, that damnable
system, which has been the cause of all our disgraces, and
all our miseries — to those secret advisers, who hate with
rancour, and revenge with cruelty — To those malignant
men, whose character it is, to harass the object of their en-
mity with a relentless and insatiate spirit of revenge; to those,
Sir, and not to the honourable gentleman, do 1 impute this
unexampled persecution. .


Having said so much as to the real authors of this measure,
there remains another consideration with which I am desirous
to impress the House; it is a consideration, however, which
in .policy I ought to conceal, because it will be an additional
incitement to my enemies to proceed in their career with


s,
viscous-, but it will, nevertheless, shew the extreme oppres-
sion and glaring impolicy of this scrutiny — I mean, the con-
sideration of expellee.


I have had a variety •of calculations made upon the subject
of this scrutiny, and the lowest of all the estimates is 18,000l. :
this, Sir, is a serious and an alarming consideration. But I
know, it may be said (and with a pitiful triumph it perhaps
will be said) that this is no injury to me, in as much as I shall
bear but a small part of the burden — But this, Sir, is to me,
the bitterest of all reflections.


Affluence is, on many accounts, an enviable state ; but if
ever my mind languished for and sought that situation, it is
upon this occasion; it is to find, that, when I can bear but a
small part of this enormous load of wanton expenditure, the
misfortune of my being obnoxious to bad men in high autho-
rity should extend beyond myself; it is, when I and, that
those friends whom I respect for their generosity, whom I
value for their virtues, whom I love for their attachment to
me, and those spirited constituents to whom I am bound by


1784.] WESTMINSTER SCRUTINY.
485


every tie of obligation, by every feeling of gratitude, should,
besides the great and important injury they receive, in having.
no representation in the popular legislature of this country,
be forced into a wicked waste of idle and fruitless costs, only
because they arc too kind, too partial to me. This, Sir, is
their crime, and for their adherence to their political prin-
ciples, and their personal predilection for me, they are to be-
punished with these complicated hardships.


These, Sir, are sad and severe reflections; and although
I am convinced they will infuse fresh courage into my ene-
mies, and animate them the more to carry every enmity to
the most vexatious and vindictive extremity, still it shews
the wickedness of this scrutiny, and the fatality of its effects as
an example for future ministers.


Little remains for me now to say upon this subject; and I
am sure I am unwilling to trespass more upon the House
than is barely necessary. I cannot, however, omit to make
an observation upon an argument of two learned gentlemen
(the Lord Advocate and Mr. Hardinge) who concluded two
very singular speeches with this very singular position—That
the House had only to chase between issuing a new writ, or
ordering the scrutiny; that in its lenity it might adopt the
latter method—brit that their opinion was, for issuing a new


dpil
writ. Now, Sir, if I, who think the old writ totally anni-


ated; who think that its powers and authorities have been
completely extinct since 'the 18th of May, had delivered such
au opinion, there would have been nothing in it inconsistent;
and [ should certainly be for issuing a new writ in preference
to a scrutiny, if the law, the reason of the thing, and practice
of parliament did not convince me, that the high bailiff having
fi nished the election on the 17th, might make a return as of
that day. But for the learned gentlemen who contend, that
the old writ is still in full vigour and force; who think that
the-high bailiff has acted constitutionally and legally, and that
a scrutiny may go on after the return of the writ — for those
gentlemen to assert, that issuing a new one would be the fitter
measure, is indeed extraordinary. But, Sir, against that posi-
tion, that the House might order the scrutiny to proceed, as
a measure of lenity, I beg leave directly to oppose myself;
I beg leave to deprecate such lenity, such oppressive, such
cruel lenity !


To issue a new writ is a severe injustice, and a great hard-
ship; but if I am forced to the alternative, if I am driven to
the necessity of chasing between two evils, I do implore the
House rather to issue a new writ, than to order this scrutiny.
Nothing can possibly be half so injurious, half so burthensome,
half so vexatious to me, and to my friends, as this scrutiny;


3




.48,6 NYESTATINSTER SCRUTINY. [June S.
and it is evidently ineffectual, as it cannot be supposed, that I
should finally submit to the decision of a tribunal from which
I have so little justice to expect. There is nothing, I assure
the House, to which I should not rather resort, than to the
conscience of, Mr. Thomas Corbett; upon whom, I . do not
expect, that the translation of the scene from Covent Garden
to St. Ann's, or proceeding upon a scrutiny instead of a poll,
will operate such conversions, as to give me any hope of his
displaying any other character, or appearing in any other
light, than that in which I have seen him upon many occasions
in his official capacity. Therefore, Sir, if it be only the alter-
native, I beg that the issuing a new writ may be the alterna-
tive you will adopt. In that case, I assure the honourable
gentleman (Mr. Pitt) that I shall immediately apply to him
for one of the Chiltern Hundreds to vacate my seat for Kirk-
wall, and instantly throw myself, as my only chance for
the honour of sitting in this House, upon the good opinion
of the electors of Westminster; who, in a season of phrenzy
and general delusion; who, when artifice, fallacy and impos-
titre prevailed but too successfally in other parts of the country,
discovered a sagacity, a firmness and a steadiness, superior to
the effects of a vulgar and silly clamour ; and who, upon the
very spot, the very scene of action, manifested that they under-
stood and despised the hypocrisy the fraud and falsehood
which gulled and duped their fellow subjects in other places.
In the event of a new election, I do anticipate future triumphs
more brilliant, more splendid if possible, than those I had
lately the honour of enjoying. Little fear do I feel of success
with the electors of Westminster, who will not, I am sure,
abandon me; until I desert those principles which first recom-
mended me to their favour.


A person of great rank in this House, has thrown out a hint
or threat, I know not which to call it, in a former debate,
" that I should not again disturb the peace of the city of
Westminster." Good God, Sir, did any man ever hear such
aggravating, such insulting insinuations? I disturb the peace
of


ti ,


! Is that honourable gentleman not contented
with breaking every law, with violating . every statute, with
overturning every analogy and every precedent, to accomplish
this business ; but must at the very moment he thus makes
a deep breach in the English constitution, complete the cata-
logue ofinjury, by adding pertness and personal contumely, to
every species of rash and inconsiderate violence ? I ! I disturb
the peace of this city, who have three times had the honour
of representing it in this House ; I! who was favoured with the
free suffrages of its electors, long, long before any of those who
lately opposed me, were ever talked of; ever thought of,' for such


I 7 84:i WESTMINSTER SCRUTINY. 487
a distinction ! Every man qualified to sit in parliament, has a
right to offer himself wherever he thinks proper; and it is in-
decent, daring and audacious, in any man, to insinuate, that
he ought not to disturb the peace of the place. I, therefore,
hope, Sir, that a language so peculiarly false and unbecoming
towards me, and so directly repugnant to the genius and spirit
of the constitution, will meet with the disapprobation it de-
serves in this House, as it certainly wilt be received with me-
rited odium and execration out of this House.


Upon the generous protection of the electors of this city, I
shall certainly throw myself, in. case of a new writ; and, in
doing so, Sir, well I am aware, what series of various difficul-
ties I have to encounter. Expellees at elections, in despite of
every effort to reduce them, still continue most exorbitant;
and how ill matched in funds and certain inexhaustible re-
sources, I stand with my opponents, is indeed very unneces-
sary to explain.— But, Sir, it is not in the article of expenses
that I should most dread the operation of that power that sus-
tains my adversaries ; that power, which discovers itself in
characters that cannot be mistaken, through every part of this
transaction. I must be blind not to see, that the hand of
government appears throughout this matter. 'When I con-
sider the extreme care employed in preparing it for the mea-
sures which have been taken in this House, in consequence of
it — when I consider the evident determination not to let
it rest here — when I consider the extraordinary zeal and
anxiety of particular persons in this House, to shelter and to
sanctify this high bailiff— when I consider the situation of
those who take the lead and are most active in his vindication
— when I consider the indifference of my adversaries to the
expellees which result from this scrutiny, but which expellees
must be a severe stroke upon the spirit and independence of
those by whom I am supported — when I consider that all that
artifice could dictate, and power could execute, have been ex-
erted upon this occasion, I can have no doubt, that the hand
of a revengeful government pervades it all. The opposition
of such a government upon an election, is a discouraging cir-
cumstance ; and the likelihood of renewing again those events
which I have witnessed within the last two months, is indeed
a formidable and terrific prospect.


When I look back, Sir, to all the shameful and shocking
scenes of the Westminster election—when I consider that my
enemies practised all that was possible of injustice, indecency
and irreverence, in their efforts to overwhelm me—when I
consider the gross, the frontless prostitution of names too sa-
cred to be mentioned — when I consider, that all the influence


I 4




48s
WESTMINSTER SCRUTINY. [June 8.


of all the various branches of government was employed against
me, in contempt of propriety, and defiance of law — when I
ecnsicler, that a body of men was brought in the appearance
of constables, to the place of election, under the command of a
magistrate, and against the express opinion of all the other
magistrates of Westminster — that these constables broke that
peace they Were bound to preserve, and created a riot, which
proved fatal to one of their own body — when I consider, that
this was made the pretence of a wanton, an indecent, and uncon-
stitutional introduction of the military, in violations of all that
has been done by our ancestors, to keep sacred the freedom of
election — when I consider that the lives of innocent men were
deemed light and trivial impediments to the gratification of
that implacable spirit of revenge, which appears through the
whole of this business — when I consider that several men of
the lower order of life, whose only crime was appearing in my
interest, were confined many weeks in prison and obliged to
stand trial, and"' that others, of the higher rank, ingenious
and amiable men, valuable for their qualities, respectable for
their characters, distingqished for their abilities, and every
way meriting the esteem of mankind, were also attacked with-
out the chew of a pretence, and obliged to undergo the cere-
mony of a public acquittal from the finil crime of murder —
when I consider that palpable perjury and subornation of per-
jury were employed to accomplish the sanguinary object of
this base conspiracy — when I consider that the malignity of
my enemies has stops at nothing, however gross and wicked,
to ruin me and all that appeared in my interest — when I con-
sider all this, Sir, I cannot indeed but look with some anxiety
to the circumstance of a new election.


I am not, Sir, it is well known, of a melancholy corn-
plection, or of a desponding turn of mind, yet the idea of


combating co tin this host of oppressions might, in otheragain
situations, deter me from the risk. — But I owe too much
to the electors of Westminster, ever to abandon them from
the dread of any consequences; and I do assure you, that I
should conceive a new writ, with the hazard of all these
hardships, as a great indulgence and favor, compared to that
mockery, that insult upon judicature, a scrutiny under Mr.
Thomas Corbett.


Sir, I have nothing more to say upon this subject — what-
ever may be the fate of the question, it will be a pleasing


4* These men were tried at the bar of the Old Bailey, and acquitted..
A. bill of indictment was also ibund against Mr. O'Bryen, but no evx7
deuce was produced against him in court.


.


1784.]
WESTMINSTER SCRUTINY.,


489


reflection to me, that I have delivered my opinions at full,


tion through so long a speech.


its success. Let him well weigh the consequences of what
he is about, and look to the future effect of it upon the
nation at large. Let him take care, that when they see


they would if he conducted himself within some bounds of


thank the House for the honour of their patience and atten-


all the powers of his administration employed to over-
whelm an individual, men's eyes may not open sooner than


upon a point so important to that great and respectable body
of men, to whom I am so much indebted ; and I sincerely


I will beg leave to offer a little advice. If he condemns
this measure, let him not stoop to be the instrument of


To the honourable gentleman over against me (Mr. Pitt)


decent discretion, and not thus openly violate the sacred prin-
ciples of the constitution. A moderate use of his power
might tile longer keep people from reflecting upon the ex-
traordinary means by which he acquired it. But if the right
honourable gentleman neglects his duty, I shall not forget
mine. Though he may exert all the influence of his situa-
tion, to harass and persecute, he shall find that we are in-
capable of unbecoming submissions. There is a principle
of resistance in mankind, which will not brook such injuries;
and a good cause and a good heart will animate men to
struggle in proportion to the size of their wrongs, and the
grossness of their oppressors. If the House rejects this
motion, and establishes the fatal precedent that follows that
rejection, I confess I shall begin to think there is little to
be expected from such a House of Commons. But let the
question terminate as it may, I feel myself bound to maintain
an unbroken spirit through such complicated difficulties ;
and I have this reflection to solace me, that this unexampled
injustice could never have succeeded, but by the most dan-
gerous and desperate exertions of a government, which, rather
than not wound the object of their enmity, scrupled not to
break down all the barriers of law—to run counter to the
known custom of our ancestors — to violate all that we have
of practice and precedent upon this subject, and to strike a
deep blow into the very vitals of the English constitution,
without any other inducement or temptation, or necessity,
except the malignant wish of gratifying an inordinate and
implacable spirit of resentment.


The question being put, the House divided:
Tellers. erslleT .


Yr.As { Lord Maitland 1
Lord Mulgravel


Mr.Sheridun
" 7 * —N°E8 iMr. R. Smith


195.




490 MOTION FOR A REFORM [June 16. 1784.] OF Tim REPRESENTATION IN PARLIAMENT. 491
So it passed in the negative. As soon as the House was re-


sumed, Lord Mulgrave moved, " That the high bailiff of the city
of Westminster do proceed in the scrutiny for the said city with
all practicable dispatch." This was strenuously opposed by Mr.
Fox, as a motion that the House was not bound to come to, and
as a question that called necessarily for a considerable share of
discussion before gentlemen could possibly make up their minds
upon it, so as to decide whetheteit ought to pass or not. If he
should not take any step in the scrutiny, but protest against its
illegality, which was probable,' he might incur a contempt of the
orders of the House ; but the glaring evil of the motion was, that
the House should step between him and justice against the high
bailiff in the courts below. Mr. Lee followed Mr. :Vox with similar
arguments. He much doubted the legality of the House coming
into such decision, since it was interfering, by one of their orders,
with the duty of the high bailiff; who acted under a different au-
thority, and concluded with moving a question of adjournment.
Mr. Fox seconded this motion, and called upon his friends, for
support in opposing the original motion. After a short conver.-
sation, the House divided on the question of adjournment :


Tellers. Tellers.
retonYeeoraGSir


YEAS {Lord MaitlandlMr. Sheridan 9o.—NOES Mr. R. Smith" 17S.
So it passed in the negative. The main question was then put
and carried, and the high bailiff was called in to the bar, and the
speaker acquainted him with the said resolution ; agreeably to
which the high bailiff proceeded with the scrutiny during the re-
mainder of the session, and during the recess.


MR. ALDERMAN SAWBRIDGE'S MOTION FOR A REFORM
THE REPRESENTATION OF THE COMMONS IN PARLIAMENT.


<haze x 6.


ON the order of the day being read, Mr. Milne addressed him-self to Mr. Alderman Sawbridge, and as a friend to a reform
in the representation of the commons in parliament, intreated the
worthy alderman to postpone it to another session. He trusted he
would see the propriety of complying with such a request, and
that the reasons for deferring it would be at once obvious to him,
to the House, mid to the public. The only inducement which he
would urge on the present occasion was, that the minister on that
condition would certainly adopt something specific and decisive as
early as possible next session. Mr. Sawbridge thought the pro-
position rather extraordinary. He did not however wish to do
any thing which might have the appearance of rashness and pre-
cipitancy, and would therefore suspend his proceedings at least till


he heard from the minister's own mouth what his intentions were.
Mr. Chancellor Pitt immediately rose and said, that his situation
was rather delicate. The pressure of business, which in the pre-
sent circumstances it was natural for him to feel, did not leave his
mind at liberty to enter on the disquisition and arrangement of a
subject so peculiarly complicated and extensive as an equal repre-
sentation of the people. He trusted, however, it was a measure
which he should one day see realised. And it was no great mat-
ter to him how it was carried, provided it did but succeed. In
this no man within or without doors would more sincerely rejoice
than he should do. The House and the people, he had no doubt,
would give him credit for his sincerity, when he declared that he
had it very much at heart : and be pledged himself in the strongest
language to bring it forward the very first opportunity the next
session. It was greatly, in his opinion, out of season just at this
juncture. He could have no objection, should the honourable
gentleman think otherwise, and persist in proposing it now; but
he was surely entitled to the same right of judging for himself;
and he could assure the House, that nothing but a suspicion of
risquing the question, which he did presume might be urged with
a greater probability of success at another time, should have pre-
vented his bringing it forward now. A regard, however, to in-
clination, to principle, to consistency, and to duty, would not
suffer him to let slip any opportunity in which he could foresee a
probability of carrying the measure. These were the only things
which operated on his mind against the expediency of attempting
on the present, what was much more likely to succeed on some
future occasion. — Mr. Wilberforce trusted his attachment to the
object of the motion would not be doubted. But friend as he
was to this great and desirable reform, he could not see any rea-
sonable objection to putting it off till the period in which the mi-
nister stood pledged to bring it on. The worthy alderman would,
he hoped, consider the matter maturely, and avoid risquing a ques-
tion of such importance by a premature procedure.


Mr. Fox considered the whole of this manmuvring as
equally curious and unaccountable. A worthy alderman pro-
posed to move the House on a question in which the people
of this country were deeply, seriously, and universally in-
terested. He very candidly and fairly, however, as being
in earnest about its success, wished the minister to take it
out of his hands. The minister owns the handsome offix
made him of doing what must be ultimately acceptable to a
great majority of his countrymen ; but he hesitates and pro-
crastinates on various pretexts, as it would seem, to gain
time. His honourable friend, however, steady to his purpose
as he was, from a generous inclination to accommodate the
matter to the convenience of all sides of the House, is pre-
vailed on to give way at least from one clay to another; and
when that day comes, a very serious, but he would say an




49 2 MOTION FORA REFORM [June i 6.
aukward, proposal is made him, that he would defer the
business fO• the present session. All the while, and not-
withstanding much serious importunity to delay the business,
not so much as the shadow of a reason is urged why his
honourable friend should not proceed: now it was assigned
with much solemnity that it was not a proper time. It was
astonishing that not one of the gentlemen who had made this
remark had attempted to justify it by any reasoning whatever.
For his part, lie could conceive no reason, though some had
assumed it as not less incontestable than an axiom in geometry.
But so far was he from feeling its force on his mind, that he
was satisfied no time in the world was so fit. The parliament
was a new one, and by no means hackneyed in the habits of
treating constitutional questions with levity or neglect. Gen-
tlemen were just from the country, and in some manner in-
spired with the sentiments of their constituents. Their pro-
fessions in the prospect of securing their seats were too recent
to be forgotten. They would naturally be proud to shew
the people of England how much they had their wishes at
heart, with what prornpitude they were ready to act in their
service, and how well they were qualified to manage their
concerns. Where, then, was the impropriety ? What was
the hindrance? He owned that there was much public bu-
siness still on the minister's hands. But what business could
be of more consequence than that of a reform in the consti-
tution of that House? This he thought he might urge with
the greater earnestness, as it was not improbable but the
House might take up more time in debating the adjourn-
ment than in determining the question. It was, in his mind,
a very serious and critical matter to trifle, as had hitherto
been too much the case, with the feelings and wishes of the
great body of the people. He thought the present question
would operate on them as a test by which they would see
who were their real, in contradistinction to their apparent
friends; and he trusted that those who had it in their power
would gladly embrace the opportunity of fulfilling engage-
ments, for which they stood so deeply and repeatedly pledged
to the public. — But a new pretence was brought forward,
and though no reason could be assigned for the unseason-
ableness of the motion now, it was said it would be more sea-
sonable next session, because the minister would then under-
take it. But why was not this resolution avowed front the
beginning ? Why was it never avowed till now ? And why
on this particular occasion ? Would the minister be more
able to command a majority than he appeared to be at pre-
sent? Would his friends be more numerous or more con-
fident ? It did not appear to him they ever could. He trusted


74] OF THE REPRESENTATION IN PARLIAMENT. 493
the public at large would see through this shuffling, procras-
tinating spirit. He did not pretend to doubt the right ho-
nourable gentleman's sincerity in the cause, but he did sus-
pect that he had reasons for the present shyness, which how-
ever nameless, had their force: and he, for his own part,
greatly doubted, whether any reform of this, or any other
description, could reasonably be expected from a ministry
who stood on grounds so hostile to the constitution, and who
had yet given no very striking proofs of their predilection
for any thing connected with the representation of the peo-
ple. He would, however, assure the right honourable gen-
tleman, that the spirit was now gone forth, which all his
influence and connections would find very difficult to subdue,
perhaps not a little dangerous to oppose. The people of
England, he asserted, were not easily so used; but the instant
they became unanimous and in earnest, it was in vain to strive
against them. He trusted now was the time to realise an
idea they had so long cherished, and to which they directed
their attention and expectations. Undoubtedly, his honour-
able friend would be guided by his own judgment; but he
was mistaken if such a treatment as this would not stimulate
him to come forward, and without farther negotiation, do his
duty, and acquit himself of his promise to that House, to his
constituents, and to the public.


The cry being now very loud for Mr. Alderman Sawbridge, ha
rose, and concluded a speech of considerable length, with moving,
" That a committee be appointed to take into consideration the
present state of the representation of the commons of Great Bri-
tain in parliament." The motion was supported by Mr. Alderman
Newnham, the Earl of Surrey, Sir E. Astley, Mr. Beaufoy, Mr.
Pitt, Mr. Fox, Mr. Burgoyne, Mr. Sheridan and others; and
opposed by Lord North, Mr. Dundas, Mr. Burke, Mr. W. Gren-
ville, and Lord Mulgrave. Mr. Pitt ascribed the long continuance
of the American war, and that very circumstance being the means
of keeping the minister in place, to a corrupt system which owed
its origin to the want of a reform in the state of representation.
He charged the last parliament obliquely with unconstitutional
conduct, and imputed the late dissolution to that circumstance.
He joined iii admitting the impracticability of universal represen-
tation, as projected by the Duke of Richmond, but declared, that
the absurdity of that scheme was no reason why every hope of
hitting upon a practicable reform should be abandoned and de-
serted. He said, Lord North's declaration that the sense of the
people could only be collected within those walls, tied him down
as it were to vote for the motion, and support any endeavours
to have the sense of the people correctly spoken in the House of
Commons.




494 MOTION role A REFORM) &C. [June 16.
Mr. Fox supported the motion. He declared, although


he had not before made up his mind to the proposition of
shortening the duration of parliaments, what he had seen
within the last six months had completely decided his opi-
nion upon the point, and he was now ready to declare their
duration ought to be limited to as short a period as possible.
He animadverted on the leading political events that had
occurred since last November, and contended, that they all
proved the necessity of a free and independent parliament.
Upon a House cf Commons so formed, depended the ex-
istence of every thing clear to Englishmen. He spoke cf the
uncommon exercise of the royal prerogative by the present
minister, and stated, that if the crown had a House of Com-
mons without doors, and a House of Commons within, and
played the one off against the other, as interest rendered
convenient, occasionally menacing with threats of dissolu-
tion, and occasionally alluring with promises of honours and
rewards, the people were solely in the hands of the crown
and its ministers, and the constitution of the country was
not safe for a moment. He compared the present times to
the four last years of Queen Anne, but declared, if any thing,
that the times were now worse. He replied to what Mr. Pitt
had said of the American war, and acknowledged that the
revival of that topic always gave him pain; he said, he re-
probated the conduct of that war as much as ever, but jus-
tice required he should admit, that neither he nor any of his
opposers, at the time that they divided sixty or seventy on a
division, ever pretended, that it was not at that period a
popular war. He charged Mr. Pitt with want of feeling, to
which he imputed the manner of his reviving a subject that
must create as much disgust in the minds of those who sat
near him, 'as it could possibly do, in the minds of others on
the side of the House on which he stood at that moment..
He contended warmly and zealously for the question, and
warted the extreme propriety of the point of time at which it
was brought forward. He closed with an earnest exhortation
to the House to support a motion, to which there could be
no reasonable objection advanced.


The previous question having been moved by Lord Mulgrave,
the House divided :


Tellers. Tellers.
5 Mr. SawbridgeYEAS IMr. North 199,t Mr. R. Smith Mr.


Mr. Eden
So it passed in the negative.


I84.1 MOTION FOR A REPEAL OF THE RECEIPT TAX. 49s


MOTION FOR A REPEAL OF THE RECEIPT TAX.


June 18.


R. Alderman Newnham, in obedience to the instructions of
1-v -1. his constituents, moved for leave to bring in a bill to re-
-peal the act imposing a stamp duty on receipts. After the motion
bad been strongly opposed by Mr. Chancellor Pitt,


Mr. Fox rose to express his satisfaction at what had fallen
from the right honourable gentleman at the head of the ex-
chequer, and to point out to the House, the extreme absur-
dity, as well as the infinite inconvenience, that it was obvious
must arise, if members, on every occasion, without consulting
their own judgment at all, paid obedience to their consti-
tuents. It was plain, front what had passed that day, that
as every tax would be found irksome to some description
of people or other, members would constantly be instructed
to oppose every tax that could be proposed. The conse-
quence would be, if the opposition prevailed, the new tax
of one year would be forced to be repealed the next, and so
on ad infinitum, by which means the finances of the country
must be totally ruined, and we could have no hope of re-
covering ourselves. He was happy, therefore, to see the
right honourable gentleman stand up and oppose this attempt
to obtain a repeal of the receipt tax; and he could not suf-
ficiently applaud the very great candour of the right honour-
able gentleman in his admission, that the tax on receipts,
like every other new tax, was liable to no other imperfec-
tions, than such as were, and must naturally be, inseparable
from all experiments. A better tax, a tax more just, and
less oppressive, he, in his conscience, believed had never
been proposed. That it would become more and more pro-
ductive he also verily believed, and he had as little doubt
but its popularity would daily increase. That it had been
exceedingly unpopular was certainly the fact, and that those
who projected it had suffered for it, he well knew; for upon
his canvass, he found a great number of those whom he could
not help calling his constituents, extremely averse to it, and
firmly of opinion, that it was a bad and oppressive tax. Their


. -prejudices, however, he had no doubt would wear away;
for the fitct was, that while the tax was not paid, it was pretty
generally affected to be clamoured against, and was deemed
unpopular; wheroas the intant such regulations were made




496 :MOTION FOR A REPEAL OF THE RECEIPT TAX. [June 18.
as enforced the payment of the tax, it became less unpopular.
Mr. Fox declared, that if Mr. Pitt had expressed an inten-
tion to consent to the repeal of the tax, highly as lie approved
of the tax, he should not have opposed its repeal, because lie
should have so much confidence in any person in his high
office, as to have taken it for granted, he would not consent
to repeal one tax, without having another to propose, that
would at least prove equally productive.


The question being put, the House divided :
Tellers. Tellers.


YEAS C Mr. Newnham f Mr. Gilbert1 Mr. William Smith} 29'
N


° ES 1Mr. Sheridan 118.
So it passed in the negative.




END OF TRE fiECOND VOLU1gE.


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